tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post2031125529947059118..comments2024-03-23T22:54:58.661-04:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: "GO ARGUE WIT DA BOOK, BRUTHA!"FBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-20924170520382999262009-02-19T11:21:00.000-05:002009-02-19T11:21:00.000-05:00WD:Can't remember how long ago he said it but do y...WD:<BR/><BR/>Can't remember how long ago he said it but do you remember him (Brunson) stating from the pulpit "...and don't tell me that you're giving your tithe directly to missions, because I don't believe it!"<BR/><BR/>He chooses not to believe it, but that's his choice. But I think he'd be absolutely shocked as to how many FBC members have been giving monies directly to the needy, whether it is organized overseas missions or local needs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-56221917966615792712009-02-19T10:10:00.000-05:002009-02-19T10:10:00.000-05:00TO Anon 10:39 - That is FLAT-OUT LIE. Warren DOES ...TO Anon 10:39 - That is FLAT-OUT LIE. Warren DOES stress tithing. In fact, you have to sign a contract when you join his church saying you will give 10%. Read his rediculous, heretical books and see. He openly admits it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-14305602589821011562009-02-19T09:10:00.000-05:002009-02-19T09:10:00.000-05:00Matt:11:39: Brilliant! You said it all and very w...Matt:11:39: Brilliant! You said it all and very well. This is exactly what is happening in churches today, and particularly at FBCJ. The world is IN the church and boy is the church paying for it. But if people are stupid or just have no spirtiual discernment, then they get what they ask for. Stupidity breeds abuse. And FBCJ has an abundance of both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-88793674051224905842009-02-18T23:39:00.000-05:002009-02-18T23:39:00.000-05:00My friend, folks are questioning giving to fund la...My friend, folks are questioning giving to fund large buildings, staff, high salaries, electric bills, etc. What is the point? <BR/><BR/>People are leaving these monstrosities in droves all over the US.<BR/><BR/>God does not need these things to be worshiped. Where in the NT do we see this structure of a wealthy pastor and huge building for church? The Church is a Body of Christ. Not a building. <BR/><BR/>As things get worse, expect more folks to question why they should fund Mac and a fancy building or take care of their own extended families? Or perhaps send their kids to college? Or help out a single mom instead. <BR/><BR/>We have been pouring money down big black holes in Christendom for far too long in this country. this economic crisis could be just the thing to show folks what a true church is. It is not that big building with the celebrity pastor who makes 6 figures. It was never meant to look like that. <BR/><BR/>There is NO command to tithe in the NT. Look for yourself. Jesus paid the temple tax because he KEPT the law perfectly. But look closely at what He told Peter about doing it. Look closly at what He said about the 'Sons being free'. We have NO temple. The veil was torn in two. <BR/><BR/>The offerings we see in the NT were to help other Christians in need to and carry out the Great Commission. Not to set up Paul, Peter and Apollos in fancy churches with big salaries.<BR/><BR/>When are folks going to wake up and realize this is not Christianity? It is a business. An evil business of marketing Jesus to be famous and wealthy. And giving to it only makes you part of perpetuating a mockery of true Christianity. No wonder the church is NO threat here and never persecuted. It looks too much like the world.<BR/><BR/>Study the scriptures so you can see what true Christianity looks like and what a true elder would be like. It is not Mac. You are being taken in by a hirling and a wolf. MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-4756276028508270362009-02-18T13:53:00.000-05:002009-02-18T13:53:00.000-05:00Steward - Amen brother. Like the WD pointed out: ...Steward - Amen brother. Like the WD pointed out: Maurilio and Mac are into "raising funds." The only reason the tithe is emphasized in FBC Jax is because of its great history of tithers and generous offerings. Apparently, insisting on the tithe and offerings as obligations "works" better in raising funds than other ideas the A-group uses in churches where people are not gullible tithers.<BR/><BR/>Its all about what method "raises funds" the best. I am convinced that if believers gave cheerfully, according to NT teaching, they would give much more than 10% and you would never hear preachers talk about the tithe again. Except to those who "only" gave a tithe, or used the OT to limit their giving to 10%. Then you can bet they would be quick to point out that was OT, not NT. <BR/><BR/>Oh well. However these charlatans can get into your pocket the easiest is what they will do. Tithing used to work at FBC when leaders of integreity called for it. But with Mac, it obviously doesn't work any more. Maybe he will blame the blog for this? IMHO, once he accepted the land gift, he gave up his authority to lead. So although he and his family gained a profit of $307K that day, his ministry has lost millions over the next 3 years. God is not mocked, Mac is reaping what he sowed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-27040263784392553462009-02-18T13:27:00.000-05:002009-02-18T13:27:00.000-05:00I get google alerts for blogs that talk about tith...I get google alerts for blogs that talk about tithing sent to my email. It's funny that i came across your blog, considering i'm from Jacksonville as well.<BR/><BR/>I definitely share your frustration with pastors who use their emotion to push an agenda across without using scripture to digest what we should do in regards to giving. I have a blog that is dedicated to stewardship and tithing, and am frustrated beyond normality at the abuse of the tithing doctrine.<BR/><BR/>Not only do they force tithing down everyone's throat without backing up with scripture, but they tell you to argue wit da book, as if they actually used to book to make their own case.<BR/><BR/>Sure, they may spit out Malachi 3, but fail to explain how an OT command migrates into the NT system.<BR/><BR/>- jaredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-62182757033588569762009-02-18T09:39:00.000-05:002009-02-18T09:39:00.000-05:00BB? Duh Baptist Bandit. As if we care.BB? Duh Baptist Bandit. As if we care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-75450847388003999692009-02-18T09:09:00.001-05:002009-02-18T09:09:00.001-05:00Anon.10:39 PM: You are correct tithing is an EXAMP...Anon.10:39 PM: You are correct tithing is an EXAMPLE not a REQUIREMENT!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-87462411809481523282009-02-18T09:09:00.000-05:002009-02-18T09:09:00.000-05:00Anon.10:39 PM: You are correct tithing is an EXAMP...Anon.10:39 PM: You are correct tithing is an EXAMPLE not a REQUIREMENT!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-19033842965929377082009-02-18T08:31:00.000-05:002009-02-18T08:31:00.000-05:00I wish someone would start a church for people who...I wish someone would start a church for people who want to live under OT Law, and who love to have a preacher yell, scream and abuse them, who doesn't preach Salvation messages or much of anything, especially anything out of the NT. One who demands big bucks for he and family for doing the above. Then people from out of town, who don't know the facts because they ARN'T HERE and DON"T ATTEND HERE, can tell us how we should be so happy to have, bylaws passed we never heard explained or even SAW. They can tell us how happy we should be that we have Calvanist principles running rampant here. Don't worry about preaching to the lost, God will save whom he wants. You know that.... stuff. I love how people expect we should have known how Mac WAS. Well, WE WEREN'T IN HIS CHURCH, just like YOU ARN'T IN OURS. WE HAD OUR PREACHER CHOSEN FOR US. GET IT? A small percentage and I mean small, like the selection committee and a few yes men of this church knew anything about him. Many had only heard him preach ONE time, at a PC in the past. And contrary to opinion, many did NOT know he was the CHOSEN one to come here until about 2 weeks before the announcement. By then it was a DONE DEAL. So before you tell us how things should be or are in OUR church maybe you should be here, or at least live here. Thanks so much for your help.<BR/>Oh yes, and if you like a preacher who preaches OT law and yells and screams, if you start a church like that then you can attend THAT one. Instead of telling us how we should love turning FBCJ into one like that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-73786008168435965952009-02-18T00:03:00.000-05:002009-02-18T00:03:00.000-05:00Anon(s),BB are not the initials for Brett Blakensh...Anon(s),<BR/><BR/>BB are not the initials for Brett Blakenship, an old frequent flyer of this blog.<BR/>If you have read the last few blogs the Watchdog has written, and the follow up comments to them, you will discover what BB is. Happy Hunting.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Anon, I'll let you discern for yourself how you should obey the Lord according to the Old Testament. I can't hold your hand for you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-22751581070262499992009-02-17T22:39:00.000-05:002009-02-17T22:39:00.000-05:00Brett, tithing is neither Purpose Driven nor Seeke...Brett, tithing is neither Purpose Driven nor Seeker Friendly . Tithing is an example for us in the Church Age. We love our Lord because He first loved us. Out of a loving heart we give tithes and offerings. We give so that souls will be saved. <BR/>You should know that Warren and Hybells do not stress tithing. They also do not stress soul winning!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-77161855855271556752009-02-17T18:49:00.000-05:002009-02-17T18:49:00.000-05:00Let me start with this; I do not consider Mac Brun...Let me start with this; I do not consider Mac Brunson abusive. I will also take this opportunity to say you can save the "the abused never realize it" or "you're a kool aid drinker" crap because I do not live in Jacksonville and hadn't attended FBCJ for several years before I left. I have watched him many times on TV from both the local affiliate that airs them, as well as the 30 minute program. <BR/><BR/>However, I would like to throw this out there. Shouldn't you at FBCJ have realized he was this way before he ever came? If you think he is so bad, should you not have raised flags over it then by either not standing or shouting NO when they took their sham of a vote. Seriously, do you not remember him lashing out at FBC Dallas the last week he was there before coming to Jax to preach that sermon? He lashed out at the congregation in Dallas, he lashed out at Jacksonville and the members here all because they had the nerve to talk about the worst kept secret in Jacksonville history...who was replacing Jerry Vines. I really did believe that was out of line. It isn't like him coming as pastor is the equivalent of a government secret or anything. Who cares if the news got out. But based on the article I read, he lashed out at everyone he could think of in both cities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-25172769052288116122009-02-17T18:00:00.000-05:002009-02-17T18:00:00.000-05:00"I also go by BB."Bloviating Blowhard?<I>"I also go by BB."</I><BR/><BR/>Bloviating Blowhard?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-74922333107692980142009-02-17T17:17:00.000-05:002009-02-17T17:17:00.000-05:00CC - what other Old Testament laws and rules are w...CC - what other Old Testament laws and rules are we under. As you probably know, there were not just 10 commandments. Their were hundreds! Are we still obligated to follow all of those too? Why or why not? If not all, which ones? Why do you think tithing was not among the 10 commandments? If I am obligated by the OT law, I think I need a list. A legalistic list, I believe is what Mac calls it.<BR/><BR/>I will await your response. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-38300503830424325592009-02-17T14:31:00.000-05:002009-02-17T14:31:00.000-05:00Homer Lindsay Senior was a perfect gentleman. He n...Homer Lindsay Senior was a perfect gentleman. He never had non-tithers stand in church. He was not into yelling, screaming, abuse, or in any way embarassing people in the service.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-78668270407973049192009-02-17T13:12:00.000-05:002009-02-17T13:12:00.000-05:00"CC: I suppose you're a member of the church?"Your...<I>"CC: I suppose you're a member of the church?"</I><BR/><BR/>Your supposition is correct. Here's another one for you: I also go by BB. Figure it out.....you're a smart guy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-63250896135350752042009-02-17T13:06:00.001-05:002009-02-17T13:06:00.001-05:00You made my point we are not under the Old Testame...You made my point we are not under the Old Testament Law. We are under GRACE. To solve the question. As Mac says, GO TO THE BOOK. STUDY the bible for yourself. It does NOT teach tithing in the NT. What you are describing are "emotional" reasons for tithing. Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-57252588360271840762009-02-17T13:06:00.000-05:002009-02-17T13:06:00.000-05:00And CC: please dig deep and give generously. Your ...And CC: please dig deep and give generously. Your church and Mac need you more than ever. They are behind budget, the pastor's conference was WAY below their expectations, and teachers need to be hired, and chillers need to be replaced as summer draws near....so DIG DEEP!FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-61647599152541899722009-02-17T13:04:00.000-05:002009-02-17T13:04:00.000-05:00CC: I suppose you're a member of the church?The po...CC: I suppose you're a member of the church?<BR/><BR/>The point of this post is that Mac is abusive in the manner he angrily yells at people to tithe, and yells at those who might "argue" with him about tithing.<BR/><BR/>Is that how a pastor, the shepherd of the flock, is to treat those who have questions about tithing?<BR/><BR/>If Mac believes we should tithe, because it is what he believes the Bible teaches, then should he persuade people by yelling at them? Or should he teach it from the book?<BR/><BR/>His teaching it is only so far as "its in the book, and if you didn't know it before, YOU KNOW IT NOW." In other words, because I said, you have to believe it. Bullying. Just plain rudeness.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry that you have bought into Mac's legalism. Our previous pastors taught us to tithe, but to their credit they mostly gave a balanced view of tithing, looking at the New Testament scriptures on giving - that we give not out of OT legalism and duty, but we give as Christians out of love and cheerful heart because of what Christ has done for us. <BR/><BR/>Our preachers never beat us up over tithing as Mac does.<BR/><BR/>And I question whether he actually believes tithing is scritural himself, otherwise I'm sure a history buff like he would love to teach us just how scriptural that practice is for NT believers. It is my personal opinion that Mac teaches it because he believes that is the best method to "maximize revenue"...he knows we have been conditioned by our pastors to tithe...and so that is his tact...and that is why he uses audio and video clips of our previous pastors telling us to tithe. That is why he tells us that Homer, Sr. called out non-tithers and made them stand up (I don't believe Mac when he tells us this, by the way). <BR/><BR/>The problem, CC, is you have been conditioned by Mac to accept his abusive preaching...it doesn't seem abusive as you're used to it now. Go to another church and hear a loving bible expositor for a few Sundays, and you will see. Yes, you will see. Mac is an abusive preacher.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-81744414093524087982009-02-17T12:47:00.000-05:002009-02-17T12:47:00.000-05:00The issue of money has always kept the coals warm ...The issue of money has always kept the coals warm in baptist churches.<BR/>Especially, when it comes to tithing and giving.<BR/>But when I read the comments made on this blog about the issue of giving and tithing, I see a flawed argument made against the pastor.<BR/>It's basically being said the pastor is abusive when it comes to his stance on tithing. Many on this blog also say tithing is not required of the New Testament church and that we as Christians are not obligated to tithe. You also say that the glory days are over and FBC Jax is no longer the same as it once was when Homer Lindsay, Jr. and Vines were here. Along with all that, the argument is being made that the good people, the long time members who made the church what it is are being abused by the current pastor.<BR/>My opinion and observation is simply this:<BR/><BR/>The people who have been long time members of this church, the ones you say made this church what it is (which is wrong also), who were taught and pastored under the Lindsays and Vines,.....they tithed. Lindsay and Vines preached tithing and the people tithed. And the Lord took that and made our church into what it is.<BR/>I find it ironic that you think the following: the pastor is abusive when he takes a stance on tithing, tithing is not biblical and church members shouldn't tithe but that you bicker about the glory days vanishing, the same days when people tithed, not gave, and the preachers preached tithing and the church became what it is today.<BR/><BR/>Tithing is biblical, in the Old and New Testament. There's this flawed argument that says tithing was and is only an Old Testament thing and that since it's an Old Testament thing, we don't have to tithe. Well let me give you something to ponder; God gave Moses the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament but he didn't in the New Testament. Does that mean we're not supposed to follow the Ten Commandments since it's not a New Testament thing. No, it doesn't. Same thing with tithing.<BR/><BR/>We as Christians are obligated out of obedience to the Lord to return to Him what is his, in other words a tithe. <BR/>Giving is sacrificial. There's no sacrifice in giving back to the Lord what is really his.<BR/>Giving is seeker friendly, perhaps even Purpose Driven as some have referred to on this blog.<BR/>In my opinion, tithing is first and foremost and then we should give.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-88819769272565650312009-02-17T11:06:00.000-05:002009-02-17T11:06:00.000-05:00The reason most people don't know anything about t...The reason most people don't know anything about the bible is, they DON"T STUDY IT. Are you going to tell me that people who go through life making very difficult decisons everyday, makeing money, raising families, don't have the brain power to know Gods Word. Of course they do. I am talking about saved people here. People don't study Gods Word because they are LAZY. That's why many christians have no convictions one way or another on Biblical matters. That's why they become victims of some preachers and cults. Here are saved people, perfectly capable of knowing Gods Word and they go to a church where some man with less brain power than they, tells (demands) to be the Bible authority in their lives, and people wonder why they get wrong info. If your preacher is preaching truth then you will know it. 2 Timothy 2:14: "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth". Key words here are "rightly dividing". People have time to watch TV, shop, go to movies, sports events, etc. You will one day answer to the Lord for why you didn't study HIS word. The word was given to all, not just to preachers to tell us what it says by his interpertation, right or wrong. Many martyrs died so we can have this word down through the ages. At least we can READ it. Then you will know for yourself when you hear false doctrine and false preachers!!!! Don't be spiritually LAZY...STUDY for yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-89156751757103896152009-02-17T10:57:00.000-05:002009-02-17T10:57:00.000-05:00Anon...I agree, very well said. I didn't mean to s...Anon...I agree, very well said. <BR/><BR/>I didn't mean to say we must go to others, but that it might be helpful if we do. <BR/><BR/>You mentioned pastors saying things they want us to believe....<BR/><BR/>I think this goes to motives. I really believe that Homer Lindsay, Jr. really believed that the bible taught Christians should tithe...he believed it. He did also understand and teach the New Testament principles of giving, out of love and a cheerful heart as the impetus for giving. But Lindsay believed the Word said it and he taught it.<BR/><BR/>I'm very suspect of Mac's motives. Of course we don't know his motives, but his actions raise suspicions. Does he really believe the OT practice of tithing applies to Christians? <BR/><BR/>- Being the historical scholar he believes himself to be, then why doesn't he give a clear, biblical, historical explanation of tithing? Why?<BR/><BR/>- He has a trusted church marketing consultant who taught a session at the PC entitled "How to Raise Money in Difficult Times"....so perhaps Mac views his job as "raising money"....and he uses a marketing and promotions firm to do that.<BR/><BR/>- So does Mac view his method of teaching OT tithing as the best way to raise revenue? Do him and Maurilio know that since we've been taught it all these years, they should ride that horse? Maybe that's what causes his frustration and anger: "you nimrods listened to the other guys on this tithing issue, but you don't listen to me and want to argue with me over it!"<BR/><BR/>- Mac once referred to us as "giving units". Does he view us as "units"? When he sees us does he see us with a "benjamin" on our foreheads and he uses a church marketer to gain market share and increase revenue to get us to give more benjamins?<BR/><BR/>You see, Homer just preached tithing. Lovingly. Vines taught it and explained it - actually gave reasoned explanations from scripture how 10% is the starting point for Christian giving.<BR/><BR/>But Mac won't do it. He screams it, plays video clips of the other guys telling us about it...and brags how he "tithes on the tithe". <BR/><BR/>But in love he won't explain it.<BR/><BR/>Its like a sequel to Mac's book "Why Churches Die" is being written right in front of us.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-85327839495736057342009-02-17T10:55:00.000-05:002009-02-17T10:55:00.000-05:00The first tithe in scripture was Jacon at Bethel i...The first tithe in scripture was Jacon at Bethel in Genesis 28:20 it was to be given out of gratitude. Grace giving calls for us to go beyond the 10 percent of the tithe. Is it really gratitude for a guy to give 2 percent when God has given us everythingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-41060116586091074982009-02-17T10:43:00.000-05:002009-02-17T10:43:00.000-05:00Watchdog, some things are absolutes. Tithing absol...Watchdog, some things are absolutes. Tithing absolutely is an OLD TESTAMENT doctrine, under the law. It absolutely is NOT commanded of the NEW TESTAMENT church. As far as getting help from some Christian Writers, whoever they may be; I do not need to go to another man to find out what I can study for myself in my own bible. Contrary to this pastor's opinion we are not all dummies, who must be led and told, make that demanded to obey them, no matter what false doctrine they bring. Listening to others including some christian writers is how many people get into trouble in the first place. Opinions of writers vary according to what they believe and what they WANT you to believe. Lindsay and Vines taught tithing because THEY were taught tithing. In some preachers like them it was an honest mistake. In others it is a convenient way to force money out of your pocket into theirs. I believe in GIVING to the church if one feels led. But demanded under OT law.....NO. So christian writers don't always know more than we do. They after all are mortals like us, and their writings are subject to error and examination for validity as any other writing. But you can go straight to the perfect source the bible and find out for yourself. You are not stupid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com