tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post2546662490089779525..comments2024-03-23T22:54:58.661-04:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Words Mean ThingsFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-1086624711494337782008-04-26T13:56:00.000-04:002008-04-26T13:56:00.000-04:00an 11:15- cute little saying about wine and cheese...an 11:15- cute little saying about wine and cheese. I get it. Ha ha, the word wine, if spoken, sounds just like the word whine. You say we are whining, so to be funny, you ask if we would like cheese with our whine, not wine. I get it. Cute. But if you really feel there is ANY defense of the things this pastor has done, and if you really believe he should not be held accountable for any of it, please try and make some rational point. Thanks for dropping by. Very cute, albeit very old, little joke. ha ha. Those two words sound the same though they are spelled different and have different meanings and you are claiming we are whining when voice some concerns. Boy, that was really good. You really showed us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-73247227347500795892008-04-26T13:52:00.000-04:002008-04-26T13:52:00.000-04:00anon 11:15 - to answer your questions to me, I wou...anon 11:15 - to answer your questions to me, I would say "no" I would not give any of that up. Therefore, I am not qualified to lead your mega-church and would not be a good example. Agreed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-44727712397549678602008-04-25T11:15:00.000-04:002008-04-25T11:15:00.000-04:00ANON 1:15Why would you ask anyone to follow Jesus'...ANON 1:15<BR/><BR/>Why would you ask anyone to follow Jesus' example if you, yourself refuse.<BR/><BR/>Will you give up all your property, money, transportation, dining place or burial plans?<BR/><BR/>I doubt it. The only person I see who thinks they have it bad are those who come on this blog and whine. Do you need some cheese to go with that strong whine you carry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-91584087855790810342008-04-23T17:13:00.000-04:002008-04-23T17:13:00.000-04:00My name is Sheril Chaffee Whitehouse. I grew-up a...My name is Sheril Chaffee Whitehouse. I grew-up at FBC and left the church when I met my husband and we moved away. I still visit FBC while in town visiting. While trying to look-up the church's web-site I came upon this blog and began reading. I'm aware of some issues the church is facing and many others the Lord brought us through over the years. I am so sorry people have decided to air out problems with the church and/or pastor over the internet. I've always kept our problems "in the family". I don't even discuss them with fellow Christians at my new church and would certainly never consider doing so on such a public forum. If you don't like something and feel someone is acting against God's Word follow the Bible's guidelines for church discipline. Don't give people who already hate the church more ammunition by spilling everything you're disgruntled about over the net and then hide under the word anonymous or some other code name so YOU can't be held accountable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-28110362058356375122008-04-19T13:30:00.000-04:002008-04-19T13:30:00.000-04:0012:06 Well put. I also have studied this passage, ...12:06 Well put. I also have studied this passage, and in light of it, have found our current pastor in conflict with parts of it. He is not, in my opinion, temperate, self-controlled, hospitable, gentle. He is quarrelsome, he appears to love money (lifestyle) and constant request for it. As far as a good reputation that depends: I find him angry, stubborn, and the way he handles this church is not conducive to a loving pastor. To consider himself not accountable to the members of this church is to consider himself above what he requires of us. As someone once wisely said "I would rather answer on earth than in heaven".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-50867760804378150272008-04-19T13:15:00.000-04:002008-04-19T13:15:00.000-04:00I find it odd that these "Mega Pastors" have deter...I find it odd that these "Mega Pastors" have determined that they need to live in such expensive lifestyles. I also question the deacon bodies for allowing and promoting it.<BR/><BR/>They should use the example of the Lord Jesus:<BR/><BR/>1 He had no earthly property.<BR/><BR/>2. He had no purse or money, a fish supplied the coin to pay the taxes.<BR/><BR/>3. He had no horse or mule, he borrowed one.<BR/><BR/>4. He had no place to dine, he borrowed the Upper Room.<BR/><BR/>5. He didn't own a tomb, he relied on the charity of another.<BR/><BR/>Let's have some "Mega Preacher" preach this message and then tell us how rough they have it. <BR/><BR/>Finally, they will never be crucified like He was. He was the Savior of the world, but His thoughts and actions were for our souls.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-5181693225558961262008-04-19T12:06:00.000-04:002008-04-19T12:06:00.000-04:00Not sure of everyone’s theology, but I see the OT ...Not sure of everyone’s theology, but I see the OT prophets in a totally different category than NT ‘overseers’ and/or ‘elders’<BR/><BR/>The OT prophets spoke ‘for’ God; there had been no Messiah, no Holy Spirit, and only the written scriptures of the law, etc (what we call OT). The book of Acts begins a new order of the body of Christ meeting together with leaders called overseers or elders. <BR/><BR/>Obviously there were not huge megachurches but the person requesting scripture references can look for him/herself into the NT and see there aren’t too many verses. However, the following is what I want in a pastor. <BR/><BR/>I Timothy 3:1-4<BR/>Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money..... 4 he must have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.<BR/><BR/>The ‘pastor’ is not someone who acts without accountability; in fact, his role demands more accountability with the world watching. I guess that’s why I struggle with the lavish lifestyle – home, jaguar, etc. I understand that we are all to be wise stewards of our money and that someone else can look at my lifestyle and be offended by me; but to be honest, I’m struggling with the use of that much money on personal comfort and pleasure in the face of so much need and hurting in the world. I need a pastor that challenges me and encourages me in this area.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-63834057802758527892008-04-19T11:20:00.000-04:002008-04-19T11:20:00.000-04:00Anon - I really do appreciate you wanting to hold ...Anon - I really do appreciate you wanting to hold us to scripture. But the extension of your logic just seems, so, well, "legalistic". I'm no bible scholar and I'm sure you know more of the Bible than me, but here is my response:<BR/><BR/>- to say Mac is accountable to us, in general, in no way negates his other obligations as pastor. I'm a father. I am certainly accountable FOR my family, but of course I am accountable TO them as well - unless I'm an arrogant task master and tell my kids to never question anything I say because I'm the big cheese. To not recognize I'm accountable TO the people I lead in addition to be accountable FOR their well being is lunacy.<BR/><BR/>- to say Mac Brunson is accountable to his congregation and thus owes an explanation when he says something that most certainly is at worst slander of his church, and at best is a careless, confusing statement about his church that many can be offended by, in no way has anything to do with believing scripture or not believing scripture, or the battle of inerrancy, etc. For you to even bring that up is just crazy. <BR/><BR/>- Adam got in trouble listening to Eve? What has that got to do with anything about Mac being accountable for saying offensive things about his church away from Jacksonville?<BR/><BR/>- To bring up Moses is to equate Mac with Moses sir. Mac is no Moses. God doesn't talk directly to Mac. So of course, if God is appearing directly to Mac, then by all means I'll cede this point and agree Mac doesn't owe us an explanation for what he said. If God appeared to Mac in the burning bush and told him: "Goest forth and tell thy people 'I'm in a hotbed of legalism'" then I'll cede the point to you.<BR/><BR/>- I didn't say Mac was our employee. But I won't argue this point, but I would love to.<BR/><BR/>You really are a piece of work. This argument is not over the broad philosophic question of: How Accountable is a Pastor to his Congregation, or the broad question of Pastoral Authority...its about the specific question: is Mac accountable to his church to the extent that he owes an explanation for inflammatory remarks he has made about our church to other pastors?<BR/><BR/>That's a very specific question.<BR/><BR/>The answer is Yes, he is accountable to us for his words, and would be wise to give an explanation. No specific scripture, just the general premise that a pastor is to be the shephard of his flock, to love them...and his words are anything but loving about his congregation: "they all have lists"...."they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ".<BR/><BR/>If you must have a specific scripture before you can see that he needs to explain those words to those he leads, then perhaps YOU are the legalist. Love should dictate that he owes an explanation.<BR/><BR/>One more thing: you want to use Moses as an example, which doesnn't apply.<BR/><BR/>Let me use one that might apply:<BR/><BR/>If Trinity Baptist Church had some sort of inkling in their church that Bob Gray was accountable TO the congregation - that he wasn't the man who no one dared ever question - then perhaps he might not have been able to abuse as long as he did. And this is what makes Robert's words so strange that Mac owes no explanation to anyone for anything...Robert apparently went to Trinity school, and he is well aware of what that monster Bob Gray did to his congregation. No one ever dared question anything Bob Gray said or did - talk to people back then at Trinity and they'll tell you. So to argue that a pastor is accountable for and not accountable to the congregation is dangerous ground, and opens the church to abuse by a pastor.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-37764328008006398122008-04-19T10:42:00.000-04:002008-04-19T10:42:00.000-04:00And the wise poster yesterday who gave us this str...<I>And the wise poster yesterday who gave us this stroke of genioius: "he is accountable FOR us but not TO us", and he even had a scripture to quote.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you for the complement of being wise... TIC<BR/><BR/>I guess you continue to support the hypothesis the Mac is accountable to you without the support of scripture. Those baptists who believe the bible took a stand in 1979 and stood against such personal positions and said, go to the book. Something you continue not to do on this subject.<BR/><BR/>Let me help you in trying to discover the precept of scripture concerning accountable to you...<BR/><BR/>Adam got in trouble for listening to Eve.<BR/><BR/>If Moses would have stood accountable to the people they would have remained or returned to Egypt.<BR/><BR/>Paul encouraged Timothy to follow God, not man.<BR/><BR/>Jesus did not take direction from the twelve and he did not tell them everything they wanted to know.<BR/><BR/>I'll concede you are correct if you can give me one verse, in context, that supports that Mac is accountable to you.<BR/><BR/>He is not your employee, you do not pay him, you will not answer for his faults.<BR/><BR/>Please don't try and spin this post to say I am a Mac follower and drinker of kool-aid. These words I print are in response to you, your words and the other misled thoughts being tossed around as truth.<BR/><BR/>You want answers but go much further than ask the questions. You want answers and pose your questions as Mac is already guilty. You want answers but refuse to think through the whole issue, as when others bring up a different line of thinking - all you do is attack those who disagree with you.<BR/><BR/>I'd support you looking for answers if you asked with grace and love instead of bitterness and condescension. --- Not judging your heart just your words.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-89305611251738539752008-04-19T10:21:00.000-04:002008-04-19T10:21:00.000-04:00Ghost - I agree completely with you on all counts....Ghost - I agree completely with you on all counts. <BR/><BR/>Mac does owe an explanation to his congregation over what he said, but its a numbers game - he knows that the number of people offended by his remarks is quite small as compared to the total number in his congregation - so to give an explanation would only serve to make more people aware of what he said, so he can't possibly address it.<BR/><BR/>And he knows that many people share Robert's view that no one expects him to ever have to answer for anything.<BR/><BR/>And the wise poster yesterday who gave us this stroke of genioius: "he is accountable FOR us but not TO us", and he even had a scripture to quote.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-15719753057965804702008-04-19T09:20:00.000-04:002008-04-19T09:20:00.000-04:00An addendum to 8:44 p.m.While the economy can beco...An addendum to 8:44 p.m.<BR/><BR/>While the economy can become a reason for declining attendance I believe it eventually could be used as an excuse to end evening services. Possibly some selling of property (if buyers could be found in a reduced market). Or maybe property devalued in order to sell. Of course these ideas are speculative in nature, and one hopes this will not happen.<BR/><BR/>In event of above, I bet salaries of Team B will not be reduced even if services are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-86873070871544961892008-04-19T08:54:00.000-04:002008-04-19T08:54:00.000-04:00I personally do not believe FBC Jacksonville is a ...I personally do not believe FBC Jacksonville is a legalistic church, and I certainly don't think we are a "hotbed of legalism" as our 'loving' pastor put it. However, I feel that by arguing about whether we are or are not legalistic, we are missing a big part of the point. If Mac thinks we are legalistic, he should get up in OUR pulpit, and tell US that we are legalistic, and WHY he thinks that. He should cite specific examples and so forth. He SHOULD NOT be talking about us behind our back in a pulpit in another state on an issue that he has never once brought up from our pulpit. I love how after he put his foot in his mouth he told them that he preaches this down here too...well I personally have never heard it. I vaguely remember one sermon on legalism right after Mac came to our church but it was an overall warning against legalism. Mac has never stated to us that our church is legalistic. <BR/><BR/>And in regards to Robert's quote where he says...<BR/><BR/>"I don't think he owes the congregation an explanation of anything."<BR/><BR/>I believe that is one of the most frightening things I've heard anyone say. I do want to personally congratulate you though Robert, your brainwashing is officially complete.Ghosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17901919314077124630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-69521546987290285142008-04-18T22:33:00.000-04:002008-04-18T22:33:00.000-04:00Let me tell you something (I'm starting to sound l...Let me tell you something (I'm starting to sound like Mac)...the one thing we have to fear is mass exodus. Steve Gaines up in Bellevue (who also by the way viewed himself as having to go to Bellevue to "fix" it - they weren't a praying church, they were too stiff, didn't know how to worship, etc.) and his antics ended up driving over 1/2 of the church away so its a shell of its former self - even Mrs Rogers has fled the church. They have a huge stockpile of money that is keeping them going,<BR/><BR/>Really? 1/2 the people left? Stockpile of money that is keeping them going? You really should stick to things that you know about. Quite an embellishment on your part, now I know why your credibility is suspect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-13268222841824140602008-04-18T20:44:00.000-04:002008-04-18T20:44:00.000-04:00This situation may take care of itself. With gas a...This situation may take care of itself. With gas and the cost of living rising so rapidly, it won't be long until no one can afford to drive down to hear Mac much less pay for him. Not to be pessimistic, but it is conceivable that churches may close if it gets bad enough (some already have). If I have a choice of whether to feed my family or Mac's family guess who wins?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-19483667185607770262008-04-18T20:40:00.000-04:002008-04-18T20:40:00.000-04:00I don't think it is going to make any difference w...I don't think it is going to make any difference what we say here. The level of immaturity of Mac's defenders is astounding. Their lack of Bible knowledge is even more astounding. <BR/><BR/>NO ONE CARES! As Jeremiah said the people would have it so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-80278995699140840872008-04-18T15:53:00.000-04:002008-04-18T15:53:00.000-04:00Anon 10:13, I'm glad you are happy with the change...Anon 10:13, I'm glad you are happy with the changes. It has been incredible watching some of the new changes at church. The Refuge services are worship centered and it is good to see that the "habit" of reading the Bible is being replaced with a love for seeking God. <BR/><BR/>Jesus fought legalistic religous leaders. The gospel is the antithesis of legalism. Where FBC has struggled has been in sancification. <BR/><BR/>Watchdog took my words and interpreted them indirectly. My wife says I've hit the big time now that WD is using my words in an original post. I was not suprised that he used them to target Pastor Brunson. He did not arrive on the scene for the sake of saving us from legalism. I never said that. I said that he has been fighting it since the beginning. He arrived "on the scene" because God brought him here and you and I voted for him. <BR/><BR/>But anyways. The fact remains that many parents, staff and children knew we were becoming legalistic. WD has avoided my comments about staff members saying it was. I know of several meetings (I'm not on staff nor have I ever been) where this topic was discussed. <BR/><BR/>But the dog won't concede the point. He would, again, have to admit that he was wrong. <BR/><BR/>Please, dog, just take me at my word unless you want to meet in person. <BR/><BR/>WD, I've noticed that every time you call Robert immature that you make snide remarks towards him. If you are claiming to be an elder in this church, just remember, you're supposed to be an example.<BR/><BR/>Well, it's been fun. Gotta go!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-45101132086803341542008-04-18T13:11:00.000-04:002008-04-18T13:11:00.000-04:00Watchdog,I don't think he owes the congregation an...Watchdog,<BR/><BR/>I don't think he owes the congregation an explanation of anything.<BR/><BR/><I>Whichever one he meant, BOTH of those interpretations is false. Jacksonville FBC is not, and the city of Jacksonville is not a "hotbed of legalism",</I>.....Watchdog, I graduated from a legalistic, church affiliated high school here in town and you mean to tell me there aren't some churches in town that aren't legalistic?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Isn't DeerWood the name of the community he lives in? Maybe I'm wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-45646940668079648482008-04-18T12:55:00.000-04:002008-04-18T12:55:00.000-04:00Robert - words mean things. Attitudes are attitude...Robert - words mean things. Attitudes are attitudes. Words mean things. "Down in Jacksonville, I'm in a hotbed of legalism" means either:<BR/><BR/>1. My church is legalistic and I've had to deal with this since I got there.<BR/><BR/>or<BR/><BR/>2. That city down there is a hotbed of legalism, and its causing me a great deal of problems.<BR/><BR/>He follows that up by then presuming to know about how the people he is speaking about in this "hotbed" (speaking in the present) have "lists" and "seem to not have a close personal relationship with Christ". <BR/><BR/>Whichever one he meant, BOTH of those interpretations is false. Jacksonville FBC is not, and the city of Jacksonville is not a "hotbed of legalism", and I would submit he wouldn't know anyways about the city having lived on Amelia Island for one year, and then living in Deercreek in a million dollar house the 2nd year. <BR/><BR/>But keep on defending the indefensible Robert. Its quite amusing.<BR/><BR/>As I said, the only way for him to clear it up is to address it himself. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-59718714750952752412008-04-18T12:44:00.000-04:002008-04-18T12:44:00.000-04:00Watchdog,I don't think he exhibited poor judgement...Watchdog,<BR/><BR/>I don't think he exhibited poor judgement by saying what he said. <BR/><BR/>Yes, anything a person says is open to interpretation. But a person's attitude has a lot to do with how they will interpret something. In other words, a biast perspective or mindset affects the outcome of one's own judgement. Maybe this explains the 3 blog entrys you have posted within the last week and a half regarding the comments of pastor Brunson.<BR/><BR/>Since Pastor Brunson was speaking to pastors, it could be that he was referring to other pastors of other churches he in Jacksonville.<BR/><BR/><I>I mean really Robert...why would Mac make that statement "down in Jacksonville I'm in a hotbed" if he's referring to OTHER churches. After all, he's preaching to preachers in North Carolina where fundamental KJV-only churches are as prominent as they are or were here in Jax.</I><BR/><BR/>Exactly Watchdog. He is speaking to <B>PASTORS OF CHURCHES IN NORTH CAROLINA</B>, talking about other <B>PASTORS AND CHURCHES IN JACKSONVILLE</B>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-59677166598026441452008-04-18T12:11:00.000-04:002008-04-18T12:11:00.000-04:00Robert - your previous pastors taught you to be mu...Robert - your previous pastors taught you to be much more discerning than you are showing to be. An anonymous poster posts here saying that he KNOWS what Dr. Brunson meant, and you gobble it up and say "We now know what Pastor Brunson said and meant"...I will tell you that you don't know. If, that is a big if...if Mac Brunson meant "That city of Jacksonville has been a hotbed of legalism with all of those fundamental, independent, KJV-only churches and that is the city I preach in."....if that is what you believe he meant, then you at least have to admit he exhibited very poor judgement to say what he said, leaving it open to interpretation that he might be referring to FBC Jacksonville and his current plight with all the heat he's catching of late. I mean really Robert...why would Mac make that statement "down in Jacksonville I'm in a hotbed" if he's referring to OTHER churches. After all, he's preaching to preachers in North Carolina where fundamental KJV-only churches are as prominent as they are or were here in Jax. You're much smarter than this Robert.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-19164424990903185542008-04-18T11:52:00.000-04:002008-04-18T11:52:00.000-04:00Young Anon 10:13pm,Well put. I agree with you exac...Young Anon 10:13pm,<BR/><BR/>Well put. I agree with you exactly.<BR/>Email me Anon at the following:<BR/><BR/><B><I>peeples.robert@gmail.com</B></I><BR/><BR/>Anon, 10:30pm,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for this insight. What is so humorous to me however is Watchdog's response to this whole issue. We now know what Pastor Brunson said and meant but Watchdog refuses to believe it. Doesn't suprise me at all quite honestly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-2142169751049495072008-04-18T08:38:00.000-04:002008-04-18T08:38:00.000-04:00I'm sorry, I just can't see the "new fire" (mentio...I'm sorry, I just can't see the "new fire" (mentioned above)that Dr. Brunson brought to FBC as a good thing. It's true that fire can sometimes be used in a good way. But we're seeing too much being burned down in the path of the fire that Team B set.<BR/><BR/>When you come crashing in to your new church and with no warning you just destroy everything in your path within the first few months of your arrival you are not likely to get a good reaction from people. Nor should you expect a good reaction.<BR/><BR/>It's extremely poor leadership indeed when you're destroying more than you're building up.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Brunson needs to do some repair work after all the destruction he's caused and it can come only from him in the pulpit.<BR/><BR/>I agree with those who have said he probably has too much pride to do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-11401792520143340632008-04-18T07:46:00.000-04:002008-04-18T07:46:00.000-04:00Anon who says Mac Brunson was talking about fundam...Anon who says Mac Brunson was talking about fundamental KJV churches. Really? Which churches is he talking about? Mac said he IS CURRENTLY in a hotbed of legalism, and said 'everybody' has a list. How is Jacksonville, now, currently a hotbed of legalism - and does he really mean that everyone currently has a list, and that hardly everyone in this terrible city has a close personal relationship with Christ? There are some fundamental KJV-only, churches here, but they are not 'strong' nor prominent. We know Mac Brunson all too well - how he likes to make himself out to be a victim. When he says 'I'm in a hotbed' he likely means his own personal experience, which is at First Jax church. I do agree with WD however, let Mac explain himself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-46438754715641128992008-04-17T22:54:00.000-04:002008-04-17T22:54:00.000-04:00Anon 10:30 pm. Nice try.If you really did hear him...Anon 10:30 pm. Nice try.<BR/><BR/>If you really did hear him say that, well, at this point I would say I don't believe him. Sounds like an Obama after-the-fact explanation to get himself out of hot water after saying extremely insulting about people he is supposed to want to lead and love.<BR/><BR/>Go back and listen to the context of his statement. Prior to his hotbed statement he lamented how mad and furious Christians are...right after he said the "hotbed" quote, he immediately KNEW he stepped in it...and he said "you come up here and say that...Honey, I preach it down there too." So he acknowledged immediately after uttering the hotbed statement that people might be taken aback by him saying that about his church, and he wanted them to know in effect "I'm not talking about my church behind their back, because I preach it down there too." Why would he say "I preach it down there too" if he is talking about the geographical area of Jacksonville, as that would not be controversial or in need of clarification. If he meant to refer to the other fundamental KJV churches in our area he likely would have stated such to make doubly sure no one thought he was attacking his own congregation. <BR/><BR/>Also, given that his supporters were quick to jump in here and say that Mac was right, we ARE and HAVE BEEN legalistic, leads me to conclude that Mac was talking about his church. But just as Obama's elitist remarks about people in PA have revealed his true views, so does this Mac Brunson statement give us a glimpse into what he thinks about us, and its absolutely disturbing.<BR/><BR/>But if Mac explains it to his church and he apologizes for the remark and apologizes for his failure to make it completely clear that he was referring to OTHER churches in Jax and NOT FBC Jax, then maybe I might believe him. That won't happen though. He could never bring himself to apologize to us legalistic rule-making bumpkins - his ego is too big. But nonetheless he owes his congregation an explanation and apology...unless he really meant it in which case his silence on this matter will speak volumes.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-34688648884822340392008-04-17T22:30:00.001-04:002008-04-17T22:30:00.001-04:00Anon - I know you mean well, but don't believe Pas...Anon - I know you mean well, but don't believe Pastor Brunson that our church was or is legalistic. Your example is not one of legalism. The practice of having "reward trips" was not meant as a means to add to the gospel, it was not ever presented as a way to add a burden to people that they had to adhere to gain favor with God. It was a set of requirements to go on a reward trip. That's all. That is not legalism. The system used for reward trips can certainly be criticized for its downsides: for instance those kids who couldn't meet the requirements because of sporting events, or divorce in the family and custody arrangements causing the child to miss every other Sunday; or even the danger of it teaching kids that the Christian disciplines should be done to earn things instead of just out of love and obedience for God. So there are some valid criticims of the reward trip concept. But I'm told that kids were not excluded for this, that the directors in HS and MS worked with kids who genuinely wanted to participate but through no fault of their own couldn't meet some of the requirements. The purpose of the reward trips was to encourage our young people to start the very good habits of daily bible study, taking notes in church, logging one's prayers, etc. I for one can say my kids benefited from this, as they grew up these practices have become part of their lives.<BR/><BR/>Your statement:<BR/><BR/><I>Until some circumstances occurred and Pastor Brunson came in and things began to change, my Quiet time and Saturday witnessing was a way for me to go on Spring Tour, Ski trip, Summer Tour or a mission trip. Now, they are for my personal growth as a child of God. My perspective began to change as new leaders were introduced into our church.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm glad that of late you are experiencing spiritual growth and you view Quiet Time, witnessing, etc. in the right perspective. But this doesn't invalidate the very good motives of our church leaders who did offer "reward trips", and your experience doesn't mean that they were in any way legalistic. <BR/><BR/>I hope you can see what I'm saying, and I do appreciate the spirit of your post.<BR/><BR/>Even if you believe that the reward trips were legalistic, surely you must see that our church is not now, and NEVER HAS BEEN a "hotbed of legalism", and that Pastor Brunson is not only wrong in his assessment, but he is even more wrong in saying it to other pastors.<BR/><BR/>In defending our church from the charges of "hotbed of legalism" levied by our pastor, I'm in no way saying FBC Jax has no problems - we have plenty of areas needing change and improvement. My blog was never claiming that we shouldn't change...it was and continues to be about the abuses of Mac Brunson that have severely hampered his ability to lead our church to where it needs to go.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.com