tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post3674095309218979291..comments2024-03-07T00:24:23.674-05:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Seeking CensureFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-88190853273365325232009-04-29T11:52:00.000-04:002009-04-29T11:52:00.000-04:00Yes, yes - all in Jesus name. Isn't there more imp...Yes, yes - all in Jesus name. Isn't there more important things we should be focused on? FBC owns Jacksonville, give it up. Churches are business' - they are run just like any other business. And yes, the end result for all churches are just like any other business - show me the benjamins... Good luckAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-68419727810278804062009-04-25T16:34:00.000-04:002009-04-25T16:34:00.000-04:00A pastor's income is strictly the pastor's busines...A pastor's income is strictly the pastor's business only if the church agrees to that. If it is a condition of employment (as it is for certain jobs in the government) that this information be made public, then that is what it is--or he stays somewhere else. <br /><br />The church I belong to has a policy of accountability and transparency on financial things--including salaries of church employees. When we have gotten careless with this, it has not worked out well for us.<br /><br />Based on what Bro. Brunson's family income appears to be, he could easily make a "subliminal case" for the "prosperity gospel."<br /><br />Bennett WillisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-91628995887194951992009-04-25T11:16:00.000-04:002009-04-25T11:16:00.000-04:00"I hate to disappoint so many of you but what a pa..."I hate to disappoint so many of you but what a pastor receives in gifts, trips, speaking fees, etc. are none of your business. And their IRS records are certainly none of your business."<br /><br />What a strange remark to make when this information turned up on the front page of your daily newspaper.<br /><br />Do you feel the same way about Timothy Geithner? If not, why?<br /><br />I would think the pastor is either an employee of the church or an indepedent businessman with his own 501c3 para church organization. What you are basically saying is that the pastor is not accountable either way. And I do not mean accountable to a few yes men and his own family who are also paid employees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-54131012605589962812009-04-25T11:12:00.000-04:002009-04-25T11:12:00.000-04:00Anon April 25, 2009 7:52 AM You said: "I hate to ...Anon April 25, 2009 7:52 AM You said: "I hate to disappoint so many of you but what a pastor receives in gifts, trips, speaking fees, etc. are none of your business. And their IRS records are certainly none of your business. <br /><br />But then again, it might be great fun to exchange tax records among church members. Especially that show the amount of your giving to the church."<br /><br />I say: Spoken like a true pharisee...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-33979463342931900812009-04-25T09:44:00.000-04:002009-04-25T09:44:00.000-04:00Here is the latest news article.
Woman Accepts He...Here is the latest news article.<br /><br /><A HREF="http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-04-25/story/woman_accepts_her_blogs_role_in_church_investigation" REL="nofollow">Woman Accepts Her Blog's Role in Church Investigation</A>FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-50721122774375376482009-04-25T09:05:00.000-04:002009-04-25T09:05:00.000-04:00God tends to disagree with you... it is our busine...God tends to disagree with you... it is our business... for the pastor of the people is to live above reproach... this would be a good place to start that.Former FBC Insidernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-12275122905239025372009-04-25T08:57:00.000-04:002009-04-25T08:57:00.000-04:00From my understanding, for a Civil Subpoena, Googl...From my understanding, for a Civil Subpoena, Google or Comcast have to inform the target about the subpoena so it can be challenged in court if necessary. For a Criminal Subpoena, they do not have to inform the target or the defendant. I am unable to find references to corroborate this for Florida. Maybe one of the readers can do this.<br /><br />Time line:<br /><br />11/13/08 - Det. Hinson Closes investigation.<br /><br />2/11/09 - Blount informs WD, that this matter will be disclosed to the deacons.<br /><br />Number of days between 11/13/08 to 2/11/09 (91 days) [Inclusive count].<br /><br />Det. Hinson destroys his investigation gathered material after 90 days.<br /><br />I am guessing that WD found out about these subpoenas by end of March 2009, as a result of a tipoff by one of the deacons who attended the meeting(s) with Blount and others in Church Leadership.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-16860103789090820572009-04-25T07:52:00.000-04:002009-04-25T07:52:00.000-04:00I hate to disappoint so many of you but what a pas...I hate to disappoint so many of you but what a pastor receives in gifts, trips, speaking fees, etc. are none of your business. And their IRS records are certainly none of your business. <br /><br />But then again, it might be great fun to exchange tax records among church members. Especially that show the amount of your giving to the church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-78386778571648899302009-04-24T16:42:00.000-04:002009-04-24T16:42:00.000-04:00Good thoughts, Bennett.
Now you see the reason so...Good thoughts, Bennett.<br /><br />Now you see the reason so many pastors have separate para church organizations. Several things you will not see with this sort of "church" transparancy when it comes to pastors:<br /><br />Book royalties, speaking fees, conferences, free trips, gifts, etc.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-70313234329887187812009-04-24T12:47:00.000-04:002009-04-24T12:47:00.000-04:00Transparency that I like to see:
1. The phone log...Transparency that I like to see:<br />1. The phone log of the pastor goes on the Internet the next day. This was the practice of Griffin Bell when he was investigating some national scandal. His phone log was published the following day. If there are counseling issues, the business manager (or preferably a non staff person) could be authorized to label the phone calls as this and take them off the public list--but the call would still be listed as a call.<br />2. The church must keep detailed records of all the various projects and activities that produce and spend revenue. This material should be photo copied and placed on the Internet on a monthly or quarterly basis--or when the books close on an activity.<br />3. The same information that the IRS needs for the staff expenses should be published and the IRS forms for each member of management should be published. If the president of the US does this, it should be doable for church management. I worked for a large company and there were pay scales available for the various titles. I set out to see if I could "figure out what I made" and got it within less than 10%--and I was labor, not management. It is always interesting to know if the housing allowance is counted as income for the purpose of church employee's tithe. I know that mine is but then I'm not on a church staff--my "housing allowance" is just income.<br />4. All church rules/bylaws/policies should be placed on the Internet. This way everyone knows the rules and can decide to abide by them (or not).<br /><br />If this is the church policy and practice then people who are part of management can take this into account when they discuss employment. I think that if this is done that most of the issues would go away. Additionally, your books are being continually audited for problems by people who are actually interested and acquainted with the activity.<br /><br />This was not intended to be inclusive and complete, but as a start of thoughts on what constitutes transparency. And if you would not be willing to be transparent, then just hush about it.<br /><br />Bennett WillisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-64342755400065348192009-04-24T10:41:00.000-04:002009-04-24T10:41:00.000-04:00Just read Exodus 5 and thought there was a slight ...Just read Exodus 5 and thought there was a slight similarity. Moses asks Pharoah to let the people go and Pharoah tightens things up for the Hebrew slaves. When the people cry out, they blame Moses, not Pharoah for the harsh conditions. If only you didn't "stir stuff up" Moses, we'd be fine. Why don't you just be quiet and not cause waves?<br />Though all the trouble is limited to this particular church and denomination, the pattern is a familiar one. All the signs of spiritual abuse are here: authoritarianism, manipulation through shaming, power-posturing, dichotymous thinking, etc. This is not unique to your situation. Sometimes it helps to have a broader perspective. Look at other abusive church situations. See how this one fits the pattern. To an outsider who knows what abusive churches look like, this one waves a big, red flag.Provenderhttp://pureprovender.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-52877109558373998662009-04-24T10:35:00.000-04:002009-04-24T10:35:00.000-04:00Reading through this blog and the numerous comment...Reading through this blog and the numerous comments left by members/supporters of FBCJ one thing really stands out prominently to this outsider who has no dog in the hunt...<br /><br />Christians can be really nasty toward one another when they feel threatened by dissenting opinions.<br /><br />Wow!Accredited Consultant in Real Estatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18330472509956735867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-80801088250086367402009-04-24T10:16:00.000-04:002009-04-24T10:16:00.000-04:00This is a comment John left on Tiffany's blog:
---...This is a comment John left on Tiffany's blog:<br />-----------------------------------<br /><I>John said...<br />I just started following this issue a couple of weeks ago. I was in the youth group at FBC around the same time Tiffany was and still have several friends who attend that church. The following posting that I left on the Times-Union website sums up what I feel about the situation. Oh, and for the record, my name is John F.<br /><br />"Some things to consider....<br /><br />1) Abuse of power is wrong regardless of what creed, be it scriptural or legal, that is used to justify it. It's sickening when anyone justifies immoral actions based on what they consider to be holy "words of God". This is just as true for something that seems as insignificant as using the local law enforcement to discover the identity of someone who is speaking against you as it is for justifying mass murder through jihad.<br /><br />2) I'm afraid that the JSO mentality of "get the bad guy before he might do something wrong" is a by-product of a fundamental shift in American thinking over the past 8 years. It's only logical to expect that the same ideals that would allow the Freedom Act to exist would trickle down to local law enforcement and even in personal relationships with one another. Since when is it OK to hold people accountable for what they MIGHT do? This is a scary trend.<br /><br />3) As for the detective who revealed the information to the church after no wrongdoing or illegality was discovered, his actions reveal one of the fundamental flaws with the megachurch system. I attended FBC when I lived in Jacksonville and have been part of many different churches (big and small) in the years since. One thing that I have found is that regardless of the church size, members long to make personal connections both with each other and with the leaders of the church. Why is this? Quite simply, no one wants to feel insignificant or unknown. In a small church, this might not be as big an issue as it is much easier to create a sense of close-knit community. In a large church, you have to do something extraordinary to be noticed, especially by a pastor who for obvious reasons is unable to get to know every parishioner on a personal level. People want to feel a "pat on the back" by those they look up to for leadership and guidance and I imagine this is what caused the detective to have a lapse in judgment: the desire to please the man he works for and protects.<br /><br />4) Several posters have attacked Rich for his anonymous dissent. While an argument can be made that things might have progressed differently had there been more deliberate and open communication between both parties, it is easy to understand why he chose to remain anonymous. It's not always easy or prudent to go up against a powerful entity (church, government, etc.) as a lone voice crying in the wilderness when you feel there is an injustice being carried out. It's especially true in this particular case where you have dogmatic, unbending church leaders and their passionately loyal church members who are either too afraid or ignorant to question the status quo. FBC has always had a massive web of influence in every aspect of Jacksonville and it's very likely that right or wrong, Rich feared the backlash that would come from openly speaking out. After all, isn't it true that the Gestapo tactics used by FBC and the JSO have justified those fears?<br /><br />5) The saddest part of this entire saga is the blatant lack of humility, forgiveness, and unmistakable desire for restoration that could have prevented this travesty. For the leadership and members of FBC, why is dissent something that you should fear? After all, if your policies and beliefs are beyond reproach and infallible, how could dissent be a threat to you? Why can't you be humble enough to even entertain any of the criticisms in terms of possible validity? Are you so arrogant to think that you have it all figured out and therefore are beyond reproach? What might have been if instead of using intimidating tactics such as discipline councils and trespass warnings, you had listened thoughtfully to the dissent? I encourage you to not fear dissent but to allow it to sharpen you and your beliefs. Not from a dogmatic insistence on maintaining your convictions but to truthfully test the validity of the dissent. After all, if what you believe really is truth, questioning those beliefs won't cause you to conclude otherwise.<br /><br />For Mr. Rich, I applaud your courage to stand up against perceived injustice. Our human history is marked with stories of those who did the same: our Revolutionary ancestors, Oskar Schindler (who incidentally was also very secretive in his opposition to Nazi Germany....do you think any of the hundreds of Jews he saved think he is less of a hero because of that?), and even Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, our history is also marked by those who remained silent and allowed travesties to go unchecked. My advice to you would be to walk away from this saga with dignity, humility, and grace. What better way to show dissent than by modeling the kind of behavior that you have longed for in those who have stood against you?"<br /><A HREF="http://tiffanycroft.blogspot.com/2009/04/jso-explains-subpoena.html?showComment=1240579620000#c809178471436092208" REL="nofollow">April 24, 2009 9:27 AM</A></I>-----------------------------------Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-84860775803884685022009-04-24T06:25:00.000-04:002009-04-24T06:25:00.000-04:00Still waiting for that Transparency Manufesto that...Still waiting for that Transparency Manufesto that FBC should adopt as policy! It is very unclear the specific list of transparencies all on this blog are demanding. Thanks for the list.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-15646558994455763752009-04-23T23:05:00.000-04:002009-04-23T23:05:00.000-04:00Wade's blog > We Are As Healthy As The Secr...<A HREF="http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2009/04/we-are-as-healthy-as-secrets-we-keep.html" REL="nofollow">Wade's blog > We Are As Healthy As The Secrets We Keep</A>.<br /><br /><I>Anyone who has been in pastoral ministry for any length of time knows the the title of this post is an axiomatic statement. An unhealthy marriage is measured by the number of secrets spouses keep from one other. An unheathy church is manifested when members are kept in the dark about business matters 'for their own good.' An unhealthy convention will have leaders do everything behind closed doors, keeping secrets from the members at large, believing that only those in power have the true ability to handle all the truth.<br /><br />On the other hand, a healthy marriage is measured by the full and open transparency between husband and wife. A church is in good health when leadership has no desire to "keep" secrets from the congregation. That's not to say everything must be shared with everyone, but simply that leadership takes no effort to keep information from members. The same can be said of a healthy convention.<br /><br />Why are secrets being kept? Why do we wish to keep people in the dark? What is the purpose of leaders hiding behind a veiled curtain? I would be interested in your opinions, but allow me to offer a couple of possible reasons through the form of two memorable quotes on transparency.<br /><br />"One man's transparency is another's humiliation." Gerry Adams<br /><br />What I'm thinking about more and more these days is simply the importance of transparency, and Jefferson's saying that he'd rather have a free press without a government than a government without a free press." Esther Dyson</I>Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-59021406474184176772009-04-23T20:03:00.000-04:002009-04-23T20:03:00.000-04:00Also, if one or two of the deacons find a spine or...Also, if one or two of the deacons find a spine or buy one, it's going to hard for them to stick to the prepared story. Typically someone conscience finally comes to the surface an tells the truth.No One Specialnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-85510438389884814172009-04-23T19:44:00.000-04:002009-04-23T19:44:00.000-04:00And why would Tiffany and/or Wade Burleson be enti...<I> And why would Tiffany and/or Wade Burleson be entitled to a meeting/explanation from Mac if he doesn't want to do it? They are irrelevant as far as FBC, Jax is concerned; however, Tom Rich is not and is getting his just rewards.<br /><br />April 23, 2009 7:53 AM</I>I never mentioned anything about Wade, however when you have your personal security force investigate someone that has nothing more than a post or two on this blog, I would think that it might deserve a face to face to apologize. <br /><br />However, when you feel you are above everyone else, I guess there is no need to apologize. I wouldn't be surprised if they toss out her family as well.No One Specialnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-49758237774925161722009-04-23T18:43:00.000-04:002009-04-23T18:43:00.000-04:00For all of you "legal experts" you will notice tha...For all of you "legal experts" you will notice that Tiffany Croft did find out that FBC, Jax did indeed file a criminal complaint. I'm sure you won't be able to see it since its none of your business.<br /><br />How what will you complain about???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-42021318355942080812009-04-23T18:38:00.000-04:002009-04-23T18:38:00.000-04:00Why don't those of you who think you know everythi...Why don't those of you who think you know everything about everyone and everything go to Tiffany's blog and actually read some FACTS for a change. <br /><br />Her finding sure shoot a hole in your howling and rantings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-58541455293473816552009-04-23T15:43:00.000-04:002009-04-23T15:43:00.000-04:00Interesting comments over at tiffanycroft.blogspot...Interesting comments over at tiffanycroft.blogspot.com:<br /><br />ANON says: I say "under oath" because they face the penalties of perjury when they are caught. These kinds of guys are used to conning and sweet talking people and skirting the issues. When hard questions are pressed to each one for a couple of hours, and the stories don't add up, they cannot back pedal and change what they said. For example: Detective Hinson's only defense is that he was acting on solid leads or allegations of mail stealing and stalking. Where are the police reports? Where is the evidence? He MUST rely on the Brunsons, personally, to back up his only defense. Yet if the Brunson's themselves can't or won't back up what they told him, then he is caught defenseless. The question will ultimately be which one goes down? Hinson or Brunson? You figure it out. The problem is that now it is not just Hinson. It is John Rutherford, Angela Corey and the General Counsel's office who all claimed no wrongdoing by Hinson. They are assuming he acted on credible criminal leads. There were none! And even if their were, how in the world would they be related to some guy's blog IP address? <br /><br />The more these public officials and church leaders make statements trying to cover for themselves, the more they paint themselves into a corner. The truth will come out in depositions and the truth is the church wanted to find out who the blogger was for a long time. They used the JSO and SAO to out him, and then they used that information to slander him and kick him out of the church. Shameful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-10407348199165045402009-04-23T09:06:00.000-04:002009-04-23T09:06:00.000-04:00Theology Today > Anonymous Blogger Gets Outed t...<A HREF="http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/anonymous-blogger-gets-outed-then-booted-from-his-church/" REL="nofollow">Theology Today > Anonymous Blogger Gets Outed then Booted From His Church!</A>.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-55052267623127180232009-04-23T08:58:00.000-04:002009-04-23T08:58:00.000-04:00Mr. 7:53...You obviously fail to see what has happ...Mr. 7:53...You obviously fail to see what has happened or don't yet grasp the problem in not answering valid questions...it just leads to more questions. The right thing to do is to meet with anyone and everyone and be transparent so that such controversy never occurs. The body of Christ is all members not just those who think they own it. The air of arrogance has been the problem from the beginning. Get real.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-55568672772244003782009-04-23T08:54:00.000-04:002009-04-23T08:54:00.000-04:00Maurilio Amorim is paid what is probably really go...Maurilio Amorim is paid what is probably really good dollars for his advice to FBC in "marketing" the church.<br /><br />What a revealing quote from him:<br /><br />http://www.maurilioamorim.com/2008/12/are-you-ready-to-quit-church.html<br /><br />"I'm not sure about wanting to be entertained, but I, for one, think that boring people with the Good News of the Gospel is a sin."<br /><br />I thought Christianity had the gospel at its core, guess we needed to spend a lot of money to be corrected on that.<br /><br />fwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-27934043700908554352009-04-23T08:50:00.000-04:002009-04-23T08:50:00.000-04:00Tom,
Your comment wondering why this man hasn't c...Tom,<br /><br />Your comment wondering why this man hasn't contacted Wade Burleson personally is the greatest joke of all time coming from you. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-35439335421077851292009-04-23T07:53:00.000-04:002009-04-23T07:53:00.000-04:00And why would Tiffany and/or Wade Burleson be enti...And why would Tiffany and/or Wade Burleson be entitled to a meeting/explanation from Mac if he doesn't want to do it? They are irrelevant as far as FBC, Jax is concerned; however, Tom Rich is not and is getting his just rewards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com