tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post3808590138765938169..comments2024-03-07T00:24:23.674-05:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Message from the Pew to the Pulpit: The Expressions of Disgust from Church Member When Lied to About TithingFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-82651554831822278282014-02-01T14:45:04.403-05:002014-02-01T14:45:04.403-05:00I have heard people testify how their finances tur...I have heard people testify how their finances turned around once they started tithing. I have also seen financial blessing that I believe were from God when I gave. I am however, highly opposed to any teaching that is legalistic or taken out of our New Testament context. I can not see in the NT grounds for OT type tithing and the fear that taking the teachings from the OT. I am also opposed to those who say that Jesus made grape juice and not wine and those that have turned Sunday into a sabbaath. <br /><br />Tithing implies fearful obligation, not joyful giving. Giving at your home fellowship is too me something that is very practical. Do you want the lights on and heat in the winter? Then we need to give in order to have them. If you want a pastor to visit you, prepare good teaching, counsel and do a job that requires 40 or more hours per week, then you need to pay him.<br /><br />The OT tithe was for the maintenance of the temple and pay for the priesthood, who did not recieve and inheritance of land. <br /><br />If I had pulpit time I would promote that we don't do all of our giving to the Church, but have funds to help out in a personal way to those around us.<br /><br />I am not against people deciding to give 10 percent if that is the way they want to budget, but I am against teachers who teach tithing from the OT and use fear and manipulation to get money out of the familly of God.<br /><br />Bill W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-87470214285964421012013-11-18T09:36:39.291-05:002013-11-18T09:36:39.291-05:00Anon 3:56,
The verse you cite is about Paul and t...Anon 3:56,<br /><br />The verse you cite is about Paul and the Apostles. There's no evidence it has anything to do with the modern-day concept of pastors. To believe as much is to remove the verse from context (particularly 9:2).<br /><br />Furthermore, Paul goes on to say in subsequent verses that he and others did not invoke this right. Rather than hinder the gospel, they gave up their rights and focused on spreading the good news. Based on their public messages of increased giving and the strong-arm tactics that accompany them, this cannot be said of preachers like Morris, Furtick, etc.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-83601047327430564072013-11-06T19:07:18.670-05:002013-11-06T19:07:18.670-05:00Anon 3:56 PM Nov 4, What you believe has been ta...Anon 3:56 PM Nov 4, What you believe has been taught by those to benefit themselves. But hey, if you want to give your hard earned money away to those who think they are entitled to it, that's your prerogative.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-22789071752420777652013-11-06T12:16:22.236-05:002013-11-06T12:16:22.236-05:00"Maybe people like Karen, should consider wha..."Maybe people like Karen, should consider what it takes to be a pastor."<br /><br />Yes. A whole lot less than what it takes to say, be a good plumber or electrician. You do need a certain amount of brashness to make shameless claims regarding peoples' eternal welfare if they don't give you their money every week for getting up on stage and pontificating/editorializing and then asking for money again.<br /><br />Most people have some modicum of conscience or shame. But once you can get over that, you can get people to support you for essentially doing nothing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-38023127844690284082013-11-05T23:48:21.694-05:002013-11-05T23:48:21.694-05:00I don't recall the apostle Paul ever preaching...I don't recall the apostle Paul ever preaching a sermon on tithing.He was a Hebrew of the Hebrews one entrusted with writing about 1/3 of the NT. If tithing was so important and required why did he never speak on it? Also, I don't believe he established a 501-3-c 4 or any other such entity to make himself a small fortune. He bore his cross and followed God's plan of reaching the lost world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-37614258676229630092013-11-05T22:06:15.959-05:002013-11-05T22:06:15.959-05:00Anon 4:15 ....If what you say is accurate then my ...Anon 4:15 ....If what you say is accurate then my thought earlier today is valid. <br />Think back. At one time preachers pounded alcohol consumption until "christians" began to drink in mass, against movies until "christian" movies came out, against rock n roll until "christian" rock developed, against working on Sundy till "christian" athletes and businessmen pushed into that area, you get the point Im developing or more examples needed? <br />THEN the new focus was to go positive "Purpose Driven", Joel O with "Think Happy", Robert S's Crystal Cathedral,Etc. <br />Just maybe this is the last "hook" anyones got SO none of the Big Preacher Talking Heads want to ruin it !! All the while Christ waits ever patiently and quiet in the distant corner for those who will ignore them and seek him out! <br /><br />What a case of the sheep leading the shepards has been built!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-10982774441927548482013-11-05T16:15:46.564-05:002013-11-05T16:15:46.564-05:00I recently heard John MacArthur's message on g...I recently heard John MacArthur's message on grace giving. He said that after he delivers this particular message he is often contacted by fellow pastors asking him not to preach "that message" any more. Not because it isn't Biblical, but because they are afraid that it will reduce contributions. That should answer any questions you have about the OT tithe being taught out of ignorance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-35562260535098506132013-11-05T13:39:11.491-05:002013-11-05T13:39:11.491-05:00WD...look at the turn of events happening in the c...WD...look at the turn of events happening in the church realm evidenced by Caleb and Mark on your very blog. <br />Only 10+ years ago preachers and good ordinary lay people would rightfully refute and condemn "anonymous bloggers" in their parents basement in pjs as disgruntled misguided fringe elements. <br />But now the flip has been HUGE! <br />Those knowledgeable of the word have been driven underground while the sheep have been dumbed down. It is very sad!<br /><br />Mark...throwing out scripture as you look up references to defend your ideas= WEAK. Tell us what You think- we will know if you know scripture.<br /><br />Caleb... Do you even know what a cult is? Just because WD has provided a VENUE to sound off on and a little bit of CATALYST to continue the depth of various opinions doesnt make any of it a cult.??? Yes... Google both capitalized words to learn what they mean.<br /><br />Thanks for your continued work WD. As long as we focus on HIM he can " ...use the foolish things to confound the wise (or so they think)..." <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-28955766486988073922013-11-05T09:27:27.438-05:002013-11-05T09:27:27.438-05:00Mark said ""Beware lest you say in your ...Mark said ""Beware lest you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth.’ You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day." - Deuteronomy 8:17-18<br /><br />Mark - why are you quoting Deuteronomy? Are you an orthodox Jew? Is God giving me wealth to confirm his old covenant with the Jews? Have you heard of the new covenant? Is that all you've got in response to this layman's post?<br /><br />"When you read the Bible you will see over and over that the gravity in the human heart is to forget God." I don't see that. I see a story about the Jews and how the leaders/priests were robbing God, and how the Jews were held captive, and were constantly killing and being killed.<br /><br />"Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits. - Psalm 103:2"<br /><br />I do not forget his benefits. But what does that have to do with giving the local 501(c)(c3) 10% of my income? Are you saying that the local 501(c)(3) is the Lord himself and so by giving money to it, I am actually giving it to the Lord? Are you saying the way to "not forget" the Lord is by giving him money? Did HE say that?<br /><br />"Glory and thanks and honor should go to God for everything in this life. All that we have is God's." I agree. All that I have is God's, so why do I need to give what is already God's, to the newest preacher down at the local 501(c)(3)? So that he can rob it from God like was happening in Malachi?<br /><br />Your church clichés make no sense to anyone but other Kool-Aid drinkers. Let's get real, Mark!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-18615090369716121682013-11-05T06:37:48.806-05:002013-11-05T06:37:48.806-05:00If you don't trust your pastor to live and tea...If you don't trust your pastor to live and teach the word of God, look for another church. Study God's word yourself. God isn't asking us to put trust in people, but in him. Look at your heart--if you are honoring God with your choices, he will bless you. Jesus bought us our freedom from all the "laws." Please don't let pompous, untrustworthy people who want you to follow the rules turn you from God. That's what was happening when Jesus came.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-26805763466059777522013-11-04T23:33:20.289-05:002013-11-04T23:33:20.289-05:00Lev.27:30-31 "One-tenth of what comes from th...Lev.27:30-31 "One-tenth of what comes from the land, whether grain or fruit, is holy and belongs to the Lord. 31 If you buy back any part of it, you must add one-fifth more to it."<br /><br />According to the WORD of God, one could buy back their tithe, but would be penalized. To buy back fruits and vegetables, even with a penalty, made perfect sense: the Levites benefitted by receiving a monetary value; but the tither also benefitted by receiving a substantial return of goods: what a blessing! Resale at market value could then be an option, or feeding ones family or anyone else could be optional. However, this modern day tithing system presents no such option, even though God himself gave the instruction. To buy back money with money at a penalized rate: would not be a blessing to the tither, but rather, a stupid proposition only benefitting the preacher who has changed the WORD of God to his own advantage!<br /><br />Grace & Peace - Elder gab<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-68381750789759375882013-11-04T20:35:08.621-05:002013-11-04T20:35:08.621-05:00And tell them to be generous, and to give to the c...<i>And tell them to be generous, and to give to the church what they purpose in their heart to give. I think there is a verse that says something close to that.</i><br /><br />Steve Gaines claims those verses apply only to "special offerings." I have to give him points for originality if not exegesis.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-71401597380699622232013-11-04T16:24:41.951-05:002013-11-04T16:24:41.951-05:00I go to a church that is lead by 5 elders- ALL ha...I go to a church that is lead by 5 elders- ALL have other jobs.<br />One is a lawyer; others are in business related jobs.<br /><br />They do an outstanding job TEACHING and SHEPHERDING- there is no pastor.<br />Our church also does not adhere to 10% tithing or church membership. We believe that both are not Biblical. <br />We have no debt on the building because it is small and paid for.<br />We seem to do fine with the expenses and mission work, because that is all it is used for.<br />The main "pastor" refuses to be called pastor and goes by his first name. The beauty of this church is that it is a family and is not functioning on profit but only for the glory and praise to Jesus Christ.<br /><br />yes, there are still these churches out there but rare.Faithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-71059676837768954562013-11-04T16:23:50.205-05:002013-11-04T16:23:50.205-05:00I go to a church that is lead by 5 elders- ALL ha...I go to a church that is lead by 5 elders- ALL have other jobs.<br />One is a lawyer; others are in business related jobs.<br /><br />They do an outstanding job TEACHING and SHEPHERDING- there is no pastor.<br />Our church also does not adhere to 10% tithing or church membership. We believe that both are not Biblical. <br />We have no debt on the building because it is small and paid for.<br />We seem to do fine with the expenses and mission work, because that is all it is used for.<br />The main "pastor" refuses to be called pastor and goes by his first name. The beauty of this church is that it is a family and is not functioning on profit but only for the glory and praise to Jesus Christ.<br /><br />yes, there are still these churches out there but rare.<br /><br /><br /> Moms For Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07436106028712477802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-12151694798917031702013-11-04T15:56:29.297-05:002013-11-04T15:56:29.297-05:00Anon 3:15,
"In the same way, the Lord comman...Anon 3:15,<br /><br />"In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the Gospel should get their living by the Gospel." - 1 Cor. 9:14<br /><br />And yes, the idea of a "pastor" absolutely exists in the Bible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-55324203529660661432013-11-04T15:15:31.523-05:002013-11-04T15:15:31.523-05:00If a pastor is having problems making ends meet th... If a pastor is having problems making ends meet then he needs to get a job.He's not entitled to live off of the congregation. Not to mention, a "pastor" is not in the Bible anyway.It's not a vocation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-82481228934377284922013-11-04T13:31:04.743-05:002013-11-04T13:31:04.743-05:00Does just plain old common sense enter into any of...Does just plain old common sense enter into any of this? If you don't have enough money, you must cut expenses or earn more income. Worrying about what is or isn't biblical (and of course Christians disagree on that) is an added weight to carry. If you weren't a pastor, what would you do to help yourself? I'd surely hate to have to guilt a congregation or beg people to give me more money. That sounds like a miserable life.<br /><br />Wouldn't you just tell the congregation or deacons that you love them dearly, but this is not working, and you must support your family?Lynn123https://www.blogger.com/profile/01426227484490351671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-40953056439252917672013-11-04T13:16:21.286-05:002013-11-04T13:16:21.286-05:00"Beware lest you say in your heart, ‘My power..."Beware lest you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth.’ You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day." - Deuteronomy 8:17-18<br /><br />When you read the Bible you will see over and over that the gravity in the human heart is to forget God.<br /><br />Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits. - Psalm 103:2<br /><br />Glory and thanks and honor should go to God for everything in this life. All that we have is God's.Markhttp://markbass.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-72621963828159206092013-11-04T11:27:09.777-05:002013-11-04T11:27:09.777-05:00"The ability to earn a living comes not from ..."The ability to earn a living comes not from a degree but from the gifts and talents that God gave you and the intelligence he provided to earn the degree."<br /><br />It's not either/or, it's both/and. God gives us talents and skills, and the opportunities to hone them through education, training, being mentored, etc.<br /><br />It all works together, and how God is involved in every detail is beyond what we can fathom.<br /><br />We give, support, "give back," or whatever you want to call it, as we are PERSONALLY led by the Lord. There is not a formula for giving in order to bypass discomfort, challenge, or crisis. There IS NOT.<br /><br />We so desperately want there to be, because then we can feel so great about ourselves for doing it right. That is missing the point, entirely and erroneously.<br /><br />Yes the Bible talks about giving, not to tell us the magic formula, but to guide us to seek God about it for ourselves, personally and privately.<br /><br />Giving is PERSONAL. PRIVATE. And done out of PERSONAL, PRIVATE conversations with God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-78185272165699228932013-11-04T10:25:28.072-05:002013-11-04T10:25:28.072-05:00God has made talented individuals who can indeed b...God has made talented individuals who can indeed be bi-vocational pastors. This wasn't an unknown concept in the not so distant past. I know someone who is doing just this in NC today. Of course, he doesn't brag on his mega-church numbers, have several campuses or have a hundred member staff. <br /><br />I have a difficult time thinking pastors work harder than any other profession as they like to encourage attendees...Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01683889145037000073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-79169360234306932092013-11-04T10:01:17.241-05:002013-11-04T10:01:17.241-05:00The ability to earn a living comes not from a degr...The ability to earn a living comes not from a degree but from the gifts and talents that God gave you and the intelligence he provided to earn the degree. Your health comes from God having created you and instilling the gifts and talents within doctors and the provision of meds to heal your body. Every good and perfect gift is from God. The minute we even suggest otherwise we enter a dangerous realm. We don't earn anything. We experience God's favor and God's blessing. <br /><br /> People, like Karen, want to make the argument that maybe pastors should be bi-vocational. Maybe people like Karen, should consider what it takes to be a pastor. Many couldn't handle it. Yes, it is a unique calling. <br /><br />Now WD and his cult will tear me up and spit me out. What else is new?<br /><br />Caleb Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-91580608996625914642013-11-04T09:55:30.104-05:002013-11-04T09:55:30.104-05:00@PP Thanks for being faithful to the text and hone...@PP Thanks for being faithful to the text and honest with your congregation. I will pray for you. It's too bad, because the spectrum of honesty, greed and corruption is enormous when it comes to churches and pastors. Many (or most?) are just barely scraping by. And then there are ones who teach tithing to ensure their (probably reasonable level of) income. And there there are the Furticks...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-60677530665474030132013-11-04T09:44:52.003-05:002013-11-04T09:44:52.003-05:00As the discussion continues on tithing, it strengt...As the discussion continues on tithing, it strengthens my opinion of all pastors being bi-vocational. This way, I KNOW the pastor has a skill other than speaking. You know, something practical which can support their family. Some might question about what happens as the church grows, but that is easily solved with hiring additional bi-vocational pastors. <br /><br />I just don't think any pastor should put all of his/her eggs in one basket. At the same time, it is an excellent example to the congregation and shows the pastor is completely aware of what it takes to work, really work, these days.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01683889145037000073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-47611754807674757182013-11-04T09:44:12.766-05:002013-11-04T09:44:12.766-05:00As the discussion continues on tithing, it strengt...As the discussion continues on tithing, it strengthens my opinion of all pastors being bi-vocational. This way, I KNOW the pastor has a skill other than speaking. You know, something practical which can support their family. Some might question about what happens as the church grows, but that is easily solved with hiring additional bi-vocational pastors. <br /><br />I just don't think any pastor should put all of his/her eggs in one basket. At the same time, it is an excellent example to the congregation and shows the pastor is completely aware of what it takes to work, really work, these days.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01683889145037000073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-16772888562385958142013-11-04T09:21:51.600-05:002013-11-04T09:21:51.600-05:00Agreed. Again, i'm not defending pastor'...Agreed. Again, i'm not defending pastor's who teach this. but if you do not study to show yourself approved and you do not STICK TO THE TEXT, it is very easy to twist scripture to suit your own desires especially when your means to provide for your family stops. Our adversary is at work; always deceiving, relentlessly tempting.PPnoreply@blogger.com