tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post6056106444734439649..comments2024-03-07T00:24:23.674-05:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: More Church Marketing in the SBCFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-67471290799890268402010-02-24T18:47:54.514-05:002010-02-24T18:47:54.514-05:00"Matt, I accept your apology. I did want to p..."Matt, I accept your apology. I did want to point out that you quoted my post in your reply to Mr. Byrd. That's why I felt you were responding to me."<br /><br />I did? I must be having more senior moments.<br /><br />"I still believe that, sometimes, someone who is outside the church, but still a Christian, can help the pastor/elders of a church make wise choices on communicating with the community."<br /><br />We overcomplicate things and have for a long time. The wise choice is to witness. The Holy Spirit gives the increase. Inviting them to events, parties, etc., confuses the message. Fellowship is with believers in the Body. We can fellowship wiht our neighbors who are not believers but it is not the Body.<br /><br />Question is: What are we trying to save them to? Christ or to visit a church building? Another notch on the evangelical belt of counting converts?<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-1798629956904768512010-02-24T12:13:41.522-05:002010-02-24T12:13:41.522-05:00Rhichard,
I commend your efforts to reach Jesus C...Rhichard,<br /><br />I commend your efforts to reach Jesus Christ. I just struggle for profit when it comes the spiritual part of the church. When a toilet is clogged you call a plumber or the Pastor can grab a plunger and give a try first. Basically that is a facility upkeep. What I trully struggle with is we have something the world needs, which is Jesus Christ, it should not boil down to supply and demand and what the market will bare. I am sure you are good at what you do. I will encourage if you don't already to use your gift and talent for all churches even if that can not afford your services. <br />God Bless my Brother,<br />Pastor ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-51549664684247427912010-02-24T11:42:32.579-05:002010-02-24T11:42:32.579-05:00Matt, I accept your apology. I did want to point o...Matt, I accept your apology. I did want to point out that you quoted my post in your reply to Mr. Byrd. That's why I felt you were responding to me.<br /><br />I still believe that, sometimes, someone who is outside the church, but still a Christian, can help the pastor/elders of a church make wise choices on communicating with the community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-7357695492978595392010-02-24T10:11:07.967-05:002010-02-24T10:11:07.967-05:00The Laodicean church is described as having plenty...The Laodicean church is described as having plenty of money and goods in the book of the Revelation, yet God spews it out of His mouth. It lost its first love...spreading and preaching the gospel, but it has committees, meetings, and marketing of its resources for whatever pleases the pastor.<br /><br />And think that these large buildings are only open 1-3 hours out of 168 hours each week if then.<br /><br />We must remember one plants and sees nothing, another waters and sees nothing, BUT GOD GIVITH THE INCREASE. Whenever flesh gets into a church only disaster occurs. Question!! Where is the fruit? If it is not being produced its as bad as the dead fig tree!!! I don't mean great "crowds" that just want entertainment. By fruit, I mean SAVED SOULS!!!!! Someone said worse and worse, you haven't seen anything yet...great tribulation is just around the corner and all these guys can do is play church with their cronies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-27742073291292307312010-02-24T08:11:04.435-05:002010-02-24T08:11:04.435-05:00"No, Matt, I mean like the believers who find..."No, Matt, I mean like the believers who find that the church they are going to is in the orbit of a fundamentalist university and must kowtow to the university's views or lose half its congregation as it is blacklisted. The believers who find that their church puts doctrine of separation on the same footing as the deity of Christ. The believers who are having trouble finding a church where they're not judged for the clothes they wear or the music they listen to or a dozen other different things that are matters of Christian conscience. Where the amount of money they make is not an issue. Where a particular version of the Bible isn't put on a pedestal. But a church that still proclaims the gospel of Christ, preaching from the Word of God.<br /><br />I'm talking about those unchurched, Matt."<br /><br />Friend, I was addressing Mr. Byrd. And I am sorry you took offense. You might not understand that I have hired many a consultant in my day to reach the 'unchurched', so I have a different view.<br /><br />We have to make distinctions between a building, an organization and the Body of Christ. What you are describing above is an organization that is specifically organized to benefit the ego's of a few and control others.<br /><br />The Body of Christ is not what you describe above but seriously, it does describe the behind the stage inner workings of most seeker churches going after the unchurched. They usually refer to them as nickels and noses. <br /><br />Unlike the Fundamentalists (big F), they hide it better. And someone coming out of a Fundamental organization would find comfort there because it is mostly shallow and focused on supposed felt needs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-53927017637875283582010-02-23T21:20:26.872-05:002010-02-23T21:20:26.872-05:00"As for the word "unchurched", I...<i>"As for the word "unchurched", I've always thought that meant a believer (like myself) who wasn't involved in a local assembly, for whatever reason."</i><br /><br /><b>You mean like the person who made a profession of faith when they were 10 and are now 40, has no manifestation of fruit of belief, not going to church or gathering with other believers?<br /><br />Those unchurched? <br /><br />Hint: They were never saved to begin with. And it is to my dismay that many just like this will live thinking they are saved. And many of the churched think they are saved because they go to church.</b><br /><br />No, Matt, I mean like the believers who find that the church they are going to is in the orbit of a fundamentalist university and must kowtow to the university's views or lose half its congregation as it is blacklisted. The believers who find that their church puts doctrine of separation on the same footing as the deity of Christ. The believers who are having trouble finding a church where they're not judged for the clothes they wear or the music they listen to or a dozen other different things that are matters of Christian conscience. Where the amount of money they make is not an issue. Where a particular version of the Bible isn't put on a pedestal. But a church that still proclaims the gospel of Christ, preaching from the Word of God.<br /><br />I'm talking about those unchurched, Matt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-40111033651614843872010-02-23T17:48:58.072-05:002010-02-23T17:48:58.072-05:00"As for the word "unchurched", I..."As for the word "unchurched", I've always thought that meant a believer (like myself) who wasn't involved in a local assembly, for whatever reason."<br /><br />You mean like the person who made a profession of faith when they were 10 and are now 40, has no manifestation of fruit of belief, not going to church or gathering with other believers?<br /><br />Those unchurched? <br /><br />Hint: They were never saved to begin with. And it is to my dismay that many just like this will live thinking they are saved. And many of the churched think they are saved because they go to church. <br /><br />"See I would want to know - why you are not involved in a local assembly. and present that to a local church and say - hey why you are fussing and fighting about whether you should have a consultant, choir, music, website, or any of the other hot debate items. There are people who -<br />1. don't know Jesus<br />2. Know Jesus - but won't come to church"<br /><br />If they really know Jesus Christ, they are worshipping, praying, reading the Word and cannot help themselves from doing so.<br /><br />What you are describing is how most mega churches are built. On the felt needs of the 'prospect'.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-57192717551929282912010-02-23T17:39:39.646-05:002010-02-23T17:39:39.646-05:00"However I don't see the difference in wh..."However I don't see the difference in what I do vs. the church having a leak and calling a plumber - or wanting to build a new building and needing an architect."<br /><br />Toilets stopped up are spiritual problems?<br /><br />"My fundamental belief is that no one or entity should have better representation in and to the world than Jesus. There shouldn't be more people going to McDonald's than attending church. "<br /><br />But there will be if the full counsel of God is preached. The Gospel is offensive. And it will empty pews if preached consistently. Jesus said: You must eat my flesh and drink my blood. And many turned away.<br /><br />I have lots of experience with mega and seeker churches and the one thing they do well is to keep the Gospel from being the least bit offensive. And that will fill the pews.<br /><br /><br />"Moses needed an Aaron to communicate the vision God gave him. "<br /><br />Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within believers who can then communicate the vision Jesus Christ clearly left us. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. Not communication or marketing consultants.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-24595746560382827162010-02-23T16:39:47.894-05:002010-02-23T16:39:47.894-05:00As for the word "unchurched", I've a...As for the word "unchurched", I've always thought that meant a believer (like myself) who wasn't involved in a local assembly, for whatever reason.<br /><br />See I would want to know - why you are not involved in a local assembly. and present that to a local church and say - hey why you are fussing and fighting about whether you should have a consultant, choir, music, website, or any of the other hot debate items. There are people who -<br />1. don't know Jesus<br />2. Know Jesus - but won't come to church<br /><br />And what are we going to do about it.Richard Byrdhttp://www.churchbrandarchitects.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-83529346818611714112010-02-23T16:33:50.184-05:002010-02-23T16:33:50.184-05:00Thanks FBC Jax Watchdog for your kind comments as ...Thanks FBC Jax Watchdog for your kind comments as well as your explaining your church doctrine. Although not Southern Baptist, I was raised Baptist. <br /><br />I definitely understand the animosity towards consultants. <br /><br />However I don't see the difference in what I do vs. the church having a leak and calling a plumber - or wanting to build a new building and needing an architect.<br /><br />I provide my services for free to my church home even though I have moved 1000 miles away - So it is about ministry. <br /><br />My fundamental belief is that no one or entity should have better representation in and to the world than Jesus. There shouldn't be more people going to McDonald's than attending church. <br /><br />The majority of my clients are not mega - ministry and don't have a director of communications. We fill that need for them. <br /><br />Thank you for telling me what the average "pew sitter" is thinking. I will pass it along. <br /><br />@pastor chris - I agree I think the average church spends too much on "ineffective communications". <br /><br /><i>So a church is charged with spreading the gospel, <b> reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ</b>, and caring for the sick and helping the poor. They are to minister to people and spread the gospel.</i><br /><br />I am in the reaching people with the message of Jesus Christ, business. That's the section where we come in. <br /><br />Moses needed an Aaron to communicate the vision God gave him. Thanks for the feedback - it helps me grow and stay on the narrow path.Richard Byrdhttp://www.churchbrandarchitects.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-20842226507257311682010-02-23T16:05:12.886-05:002010-02-23T16:05:12.886-05:00Have you guys read "Quitting Church"? Ir...Have you guys read "Quitting Church"? Ironically, the authors found it was the believers leaving the churches. They could not stand the shallowness anymore. Many are meeting in homes or groups. Many are looking for other serious believers who want to develop their spiritual gifts with other believers.<br /><br />There is a big move afoot with this. Most people just do not know what to do because they are stuck in the 'go to a building and let them preach to me" mentality. But many are waking up. Jon Zens has been a great resource for those who feel this way.<br /><br />Check him out at searching together.Lydiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367390474045060624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-77474157032102833642010-02-23T15:08:51.625-05:002010-02-23T15:08:51.625-05:00Okay, just a couple of comments here.
Richard Byr...Okay, just a couple of comments here.<br /><br />Richard Byrd has a point. Sometimes a church who wants to let their community know what's happening in their fellowship is unaware of new methods that could accomplish that goal. Or, something they're doing at the moment isn't working, and is instead offending people and driving them away. But the pastor/elders can't see this because they're too close to the matter at hand. Even a church member with the background in marketing and communication might not see this, because they're too close to the subject.<br /><br />This is where a fresh pair of eyes outside a particular local assembly can be of valuable use, especially if a church is small and doesn't necessarily have the laypeople who can, say, build an elegant, eye-catching website, or write a compelling press release. An outsider can look at a church and their ministries objectively, and help the pastor/elders make wise decisions, showing them the most effective (and cost-effective) ways of reaching out to the community through media.<br /><br />I'm not saying that a church needs to spend huge portions of the budget on such a consultant, but there is a place and a need for such a service. If there wasn't, it wouldn't exist.<br /><br />As for the word "unchurched", I've always thought that meant a believer (like myself) who wasn't involved in a local assembly, for whatever reason.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-29780675637565671572010-02-23T12:23:57.610-05:002010-02-23T12:23:57.610-05:00If you spend a million on adevertising and you inc...If you spend a million on adevertising and you increase your membersihp by a 100 in a year. then that averages to 10,000 a person. Would it be more effective to say I will pay you to come to church for an x amount of time if you are a non church member and get better results for the same price. Some are saying how dare you pay people to come to church. But we are paying people to get people to come to church when we pay for advertisement. One way you pay people and they don't hear the Gospel and the other way The person hears the Gospel and has some money to pay bills or eat when they leave. Who knows some of that might end up in the plate.<br />Pastor ChrisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-87620356669778370612010-02-23T10:28:45.559-05:002010-02-23T10:28:45.559-05:00Anon 8:11,
I agree. However, there's another...Anon 8:11,<br /><br />I agree. However, there's another term I think applies to many today and that's "dechurched." Those are the people who've been forced out of their churches by all this Purpose Driven, New Age stuff and are so discouraged they've given up on "church" altogether.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-88099143387314582472010-02-23T10:20:51.115-05:002010-02-23T10:20:51.115-05:00When I read or hear someone refer to the lost as u...When I read or hear someone refer to the lost as unchurched, I immediately know what type of person/ministry/church is speaking. USELESS!!!!!<br /><br />February 23, 2010 8:11 AM<br /><br />Friend, You are correct and are picking up on the subtle twisting of what the Word teaches.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-24652448839419313922010-02-23T10:17:57.761-05:002010-02-23T10:17:57.761-05:00" I believe that what a church chooses to do ..." I believe that what a church chooses to do or not to do with respect to its ministries is a decision for that church."<br /><br />And it is the duty of the Body of Christ universal to point out when those methods or "ministries" have no foundation in the Word and are simply the traditions of man.<br /><br />Time for many to break out Pilgrims Progress and give it good read.<br /><br />What you are reading here is Vanity Fair with a plastic Jesus.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-42078573522984114802010-02-23T08:11:46.793-05:002010-02-23T08:11:46.793-05:00Lets please get something straight!! Unchurched is...Lets please get something straight!! Unchurched is a Purpose Driven, New Age term. It is another seeker sensative, polotically correct, don't want to offend anyone, term. A person is either SAVED or Lost. Get it SAVED or Lost..... When I read or hear someone refer to the lost as unchurched, I immediately know what type of person/ministry/church is speaking. USELESS!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-72872947551931837992010-02-22T23:45:17.361-05:002010-02-22T23:45:17.361-05:00I had no idea that such methods were "fundame...I had no idea that such methods were "fundamentals"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-81544926233261959672010-02-22T23:26:23.767-05:002010-02-22T23:26:23.767-05:00Bravo, Anonymous 9:28
Junkster, most churches hav...Bravo, Anonymous 9:28<br /><br />Junkster, most churches have a listing in the phone book or a small ad on a newspaper's church page, something on that order. They might call the paper to draw attention to a special Easter or Christmas service. I don't see anything wrong with letting a community know what a church is doing. Using what's available is fine. You can spend almost nothing using what's available. But that is so far from what the market-based churches are doing these days.cheezewhizchurchhttp://cheezewhizchurch.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-61866277719998159812010-02-22T22:00:25.724-05:002010-02-22T22:00:25.724-05:00Or maybe these "Consultants" think they ...Or maybe these "Consultants" think they are the only ones that could have a "Direct Hotline" between our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and these Pastors. <br /><br />What makes them realistically think they are the only one that have the answers for issues within the church?.<br /><br />So how many churches have these "Man Called Consultants" pastored?Dougnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-6992626787423597062010-02-22T21:32:11.626-05:002010-02-22T21:32:11.626-05:00cheezewhizchurch said...
Nothing wrong with us...<i>cheezewhizchurch said...<br /> Nothing wrong with using advertising,</i><br /><br />I'm not so sure about that. Maybe it isn't technically "wrong", as in immoral, but that doesn't mean it is the right thing for a church to do with the financial resources of its membership. Particularly when there are other things that the clearly outlined in Scripture that churches ought to do as their foremost priorities (caring for the poor in the body, supporting those who take the gospel to the world outside the church) on which they spend very little money at all.Junksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422651080120306816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-33629422679709957302010-02-22T21:28:01.931-05:002010-02-22T21:28:01.931-05:00Richard Byrd said...
In a nutshell, my job is to...Richard Byrd said... <br /><br />In a nutshell, my job is to take the vision of the pastor and outline a strategy and plan for communicating that vision 1. inwardly 2. outwardly. <br /><br />My POV - a "God-called" preacher doesn't have a 'vision' to communicate - if he is called by God to preach the Word, then that is what he is to do. GOD will communicate what HE wants people to hear through that. A pastor doesn't communicate his own vision - unless of course, he's merely "in the business".<br /><br /><br />In my line of work - Pastors sometimes need an outside view or sounding board for their communications. Especially when trying to reach people who are "unchurched". My outside view of the church helps a ministries understand or see things that they might ordinarily miss - in many cases just because of familiarity. <br /> <br />My POV - the 'sounding board' for the pastor should be first, the Holy Spirit speaking to him and then the other people in his church. There is no reason for a "marketing consultant"; God's Word is not "marketable".<br /><br /><br /><br />My job is not to "commercialize" the gospel. My job is to make sure that the message reaches the people.<br /><br /><br />NO, Mr. Byrd, that is not your job - that is the Holy Spirit's "job", and a pastor who feels he needs your assistance should not be preaching God's Word. This false idea comes from churches becoming "corporations"; they take their eyes off Jesus, the Head of the Church, and look to the world to "help" Christ "grow His church". How utterly arrogant and sinful. No wonder the Bible warns of things becoming "worse and worse" - we are living in that very time now. <br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-19988398300483946922010-02-22T20:06:53.006-05:002010-02-22T20:06:53.006-05:00Richard Byrd:
I don't know you or anything ab...Richard Byrd:<br /><br />I don't know you or anything about your services, but I appreciate your making a comment on this blog.<br /><br />I believe that what a church chooses to do or not to do with respect to its ministries is a decision for that church. If you offer services that churches believe will help them and you do so with the right spirit, then without any additional information where wrongdoing is clear, I am not going to try and judge you or what you do.<br /><br />I wish you good luck.<br /><br />LouisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-65815523251573180432010-02-22T17:59:55.545-05:002010-02-22T17:59:55.545-05:00Richard - thanks for checking in here. I sincerely...Richard - thanks for checking in here. I sincerely appreciate you defending your services.<br /><br />However, you'll have to pardon my skepticism on the need for a consultant to help "communicate" the vision, whether it be in or out of the church. Let me explain from the perspective of a Southern Baptist of about 25 years:<br /><br />First of all, we baptists have been told by our pastors that they are "God's men", that they have been "called" into the ministry by God Himself. They are on a higher spiritual plane than most of us, as they "surrendered" to the ministry, and God "called" them. We have been told by the pastors that the way God works in our church is this: God tells the vision of the church to the pastor - not to the other staff members or to the laypeople, but God speaks today directly to the pastor with the vision. Then, the pastor is to communicate that to the people, so they can get behind it, open their wallets, and pay for it (especially when capital funds are needed). We are to follow the pastor, because to follow him is to follow God and God's will for the church. And to even ask a QUESTION about the plan, to offer any opposition to the plan, is to be a troublemaker and a gossip.<br /><br />So I am to believe that this vision that came from God for our church directly from God to my pastor, to be communicated to me (and I'm not sure why it would need to be communicated outside the church), requires Maurilio or Richard the consultant to get in a plane and fly down and meet with my pastor and his staff to figure out the best way to communicate it to me. If it came from God, then just tell me what it is. Or write me a letter. Or do both. And send me an email and Twitter too. I'll get the message on what the vision is. In fact, if I think I'm being coddled with fancy words and videos and big colorful banners designed by a consultant, I'm MORE apt to think the vision didn't come from God in Heaven, but from Gerry in Houston. <br /><br />I know that is mighty cynical, but as a consultant YOU need to know what the people in the pew are thinking, right? <br /><br />And by the way, another thing that seems strange, is how these mega churches many of them have "directors of communication", yet they STILL need to go to outside consultants on how to communicate? What is the "Director of Communication" for then?<br /><br />It just doesn't add up to the average Joe pew sitter.<br /><br />Thanks for hearing me out on that, Richard.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-18948219405403345972010-02-22T17:57:08.303-05:002010-02-22T17:57:08.303-05:00MR BYRD CLAIMS:
"My job is not to "comme...MR BYRD CLAIMS:<br />"My job is not to "commercialize" the gospel. My job is to make sure that the message reaches the people."<br />=================================<br />WHAT AN INCREDIBLE STATEMENT! WHAT THIS PERSON DOES IS COMMERCIALIZE WHICH EVERYONE CAN SEE THAT THESE JOBS IS FOR "SELF" AND THEIR VISION ONLY TO MAKE MONEY! <br /><br />AND THIS IS WHAT THEY SAY IS MINISTRY SERVICE - GOD HELP US ALL!<br /><br />DON'T WE ALL JUST LOVE THE CUTIES "TWITTER" MESSAGES (perfume & desert choice) - TELLS US A LOT ABOUT THE PROFESSIONALISM AND PERSONALITES OF THESE IDIOTS WHO ARE NOW DRAWING PAYCHECKS FROM CHURCHES FOR THEIR WISDOM - INDEED THEIR MESSAGES ARE COMING THROUGH LOUD AND CLEAR & THEY LOOK LIKE FOOLS! :>)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com