tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post6385243000487877259..comments2024-03-07T00:24:23.674-05:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: FBC Jax Resigns from Evangelical Council of Financial AccountabilityFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-13129838771985712212011-01-25T00:10:00.260-05:002011-01-25T00:10:00.260-05:00Anon 10:52,
Wow, I'm living at the poverty le...Anon 10:52,<br /><br />Wow, I'm living at the poverty level Who knew that a person having a M.Ed. degree should be paid so poorly.<br /><br />Atually, there is a national poverty level, it does not take into account the cost of living in different states. If went back to CA, I make a bit more, but I'd have to join that vile NEA union and I still couldn't buy a house. Who knew?Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-39425940435781472102011-01-24T10:52:01.038-05:002011-01-24T10:52:01.038-05:00One of the most misunderstood concepts is what is ...One of the most misunderstood concepts is what is considered “middle class.” Middle class income is a household income that is approximately equal to the median income. In the United States most median incomes fall within a range of $45,000 to $65,000. This takes into consideration all wage earners within the household. <br /><br />Using this as a model a high 5 figure salary would place the earner in the high income or if you’re a Democrat “rich” part of the earnings scale.WishIhadknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12487727353887788291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-12032284734905677012011-01-24T09:32:03.246-05:002011-01-24T09:32:03.246-05:00"After having been a member of 3 mega churche..."After having been a member of 3 mega churches, I prefer the bi-vocational model. It seemed to work for Paul."<br /><br />YES!~ You are right and some of the serious people in ministry are figuring this out.<br /><br />Why do we think "pastoring" only happens at "church"? It can also be a part of the workplace. We have so limited ourselves with our titles and buildings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-78203364679131876222011-01-23T20:27:26.174-05:002011-01-23T20:27:26.174-05:00Katie,
I will not attend a church that does not ...Katie,<br /><br /><br />I will not attend a church that does not submit their financial records under the authority of other Christians who can report what they see.<br /><br /><br />Your thoughts are reasonable and a key to successful outreach. These megas must be reading something else into the bible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-10348675741628230572011-01-23T20:16:12.768-05:002011-01-23T20:16:12.768-05:00Anon 6:58.
After having been a member of 3 mega c...Anon 6:58.<br /><br />After having been a member of 3 mega churches, I prefer the bi-vocational model. It seemed to work for Paul.<br /><br />I do understand that big churches need big buildings and all the bells and whistles we've come to expect. I was part of the Choir and Pastor Jeremiah's church under the direction of Steve Caudill. We had the opportunity to do a musical with Bill and Gloria Gaither. It was a wonderous night and many came to the Lord. Pastor Jeremiah did not charge for this event. He told us that there would be a love offering only. We managed to meet every expense and that included the cost to the Gaithers and their crew. So the question is (at least for me) at what point is the church's growth more of a burden than a blessing? I don't have an answer. I do know this: no Pastor should brow beat their flock for the almighty dollar. God has promised to bless us abundantly, but we have no admonition to give 10%. We come to Him as filthy rags and He has transformed us into people who seek to find truth in the scriptures. Mega's also can't meet the needs of the flock with only one Pastor. Ever heard Perry Noble give his reason to not visit people in the hospital? It turned my stomach.<br /><br />I'd probably start around 10% for a full time Pastor. Seriously, if they want to use the OT scripture in Malachi, then that seems like a good number. I don't know what FBCJ brings in every week, but I'm quite certain that 10% is more than adequate. Ever hear Paul Washer implying that if you don't have a full time Pastor, your children might not become saved? God help us all!<br /><br />Salaries are debated in the community every day. I'm a teacher and I work very hard and I don't make as much as a firefighter or sanitation employee. Is not my work just as important than the sanitation worker? Evidentally not. I worked for 10 years and just barely made $40,000. Take home after taxes and compulsory state retirement, health insurance came to about $33,000. If it weren't for my military retirement, I couldn't even own a home.<br /><br />So, I don't know if there should be a set pattern for Mega churches. I don't expect that they should live in poverty, but neither do I think they should live in wild extragance, bring their family onto the payroll. etc. We can afford to pay them a salary that makes them the middle of the middle class which is far above the poverty level and lavish by the standards of other countries. But whatever we pay them, if we can't discern when a man has gone over the edge into comparing us to pagans, then he has shown no discernment and cannot rightly divide the Word of God.<br /><br />I no longer attend a mega. My Pastor is bi-vocational and he lives in a cookie-cutter house the same as my husband and I. We do pay him but's not even close to 6 figures probably upper 5 figures.<br /><br />I will not attend a church that does not submit their financial records under the authority of other Christians who can report what they see.<br /><br />Sorry for rambling on so much.Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-40009410712385145952011-01-23T18:58:07.117-05:002011-01-23T18:58:07.117-05:00Katie, I like your name.
Just want your opinion, ...Katie, I like your name.<br /><br />Just want your opinion, how do you think a pastors should ask for money?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-64336502923974559892011-01-23T18:47:28.380-05:002011-01-23T18:47:28.380-05:00It's sad to hear this, but I am not surprised....It's sad to hear this, but I am not surprised.<br /><br />I used to belong to an SBC church in El Cajon, Califonria. Most of you probably know its name Shadow Mountain Community church. It is Pastored by The Reverend David Jeremiah who also does the radio program 'Turning Point'. They also withdrew from ECFA. I can tell you from experience that we were hounded at least twice a month for money via the U.S. Mail. The entire month of January is dedicated to sermons on the tithe. To his credit, Pastor Jeremiah did not brow beat us for more money behind the pulpit. But opening the mail always caused some apprehension. I think this withdrawel is a bad thing.<br /><br />Pastor Jeremiah could still use some prayer. He's been fighting lymphoma since 1995.Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-1784512596579235312011-01-22T23:31:53.938-05:002011-01-22T23:31:53.938-05:00What is an appropriate salary for a Pastor?
The ol...What is an appropriate salary for a Pastor?<br />The old time standard was what the teachers in the community made. Approximately equal in education and with similar responsibilities to their “congregation” I think this constitutes a fair salary.WishIhadknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12487727353887788291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-13183707990585482672011-01-22T09:57:11.017-05:002011-01-22T09:57:11.017-05:00"An elder was certainly not a lowly servant i..."An elder was certainly not a lowly servant in the first church as you wrote. Whether you want to use the Greek presbuteros or the Greek episkopos they were older men who managed, controlled, and ruled. In the Gospel, the term means on the ruling council.<br /><br />Do you think there are some culturally relevant things from the NT church to present church that must change? Do you worship in a home Anon? Does your wife keep her head covered and her mouth sealed in the congregation?<br /><br />I am always interested to read people who think it is non-NT to pay a pastor, but they sure don't live out the rest of the NT church principles from Pauline theology.<br /><br />Pastor Denny"<br /><br /><br />So, Pastor Denny, are you arguing that paying the pastor is something that is only culturally relevant to today? Or are you arguing that elders are only culturally relevant for today since they are not listed or addressed in every letter in the NT?<br /><br />Your response makes no sense. You did not seem to think it out very well. That is ok, I understand that you do not normally have to answer to anyone or explain yourself. You are just to be obeyed and listened to because of a man conferred title. <br /><br />But that does very little for your own understanding and learning. A sad bubble most pastors live in and are paid to be ignorant tyrants over others.<br /><br />Let us pray the pew sitters wake up before it is too late.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-11349123149667487222011-01-22T09:36:22.407-05:002011-01-22T09:36:22.407-05:00This is why I love blogs. People are getting to se...This is why I love blogs. People are getting to see how biblically ignorant many pastors are. <br /><br />Some deceive on purpose like Mac does but some are just ignorant. They believed what they were told in seminary or bible college that elders "rule" and "control" people. One wonders why Jesus said HE was our mediator before God when some say He left humans to do that for us?<br /><br />Sounds like pastor denny has a napoleon complex.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-7862290325669993452011-01-22T09:32:16.934-05:002011-01-22T09:32:16.934-05:00"Do you think there are some culturally relev..."Do you think there are some culturally relevant things from the NT church to present church that must change? Do you worship in a home Anon? Does your wife keep her head covered and her mouth sealed in the congregation?<br /><br />I am always interested to read people who think it is non-NT to pay a pastor, but they sure don't live out the rest of the NT church principles from Pauline theology."<br /><br />keep post, Denny, because you are showing more scriptural ignorance than one can believe from a "pastor".<br /><br />1. As believers we can worship ANYWHERE. Some do it in prison in China. Some worship in their car. Some worship with other believers in many venues. In the NT, it might be down by a river, outside the synagogues, etc. It is not the place that matters. Do you remember what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman about this very thing? Did you understand what Jesus was saying? That is the real question.<br /><br />2. As to head coverings. This is the most misinterpreted passage out there besides 1 Tim. It is also horribly translated. Read the interlinear to get a better idea of what Paul was telling those 1st Century Christians.<br /><br />Paul was giving them a choice to cover or not while meeting with the Body of Christ. <br /><br />Read the GREEK! Do you understand why he said "because of the angels" in that passage?<br /><br />Women covered back then for modesty. Prostitutes went around uncovered. Certain men covered their heads while praying (Jews) because of their shame for their sin. Paul was saying they do not need to cover because of what Christ did. But what about women? The covering for women was cultural. Paul says after making arguments about hair length (which is badly translated because Paul cut his hair for a Nazerite vow so he did not say it was wrong for a man to have long hair. Paul grew his long FOR when he took the vow.)<br /><br />Such a horrible translation that keeps people in silly bondage in this century over cultural problems of the 1st century. I really recommend studying the Greek on this one to understand it better.<br /><br />Here is how Paul sums up the head covering issue:<br /><br />13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? <br /><br />He is giving them freedom to choose whether to cover or not.<br /><br />3. Mouth sealed. This is in 1 corin 14 and it is a "quote" from another letter. There are many such in 1 Corinthians. How do we know? Because the quote mentions 'as the law says". There is NO such "law" in the OT. But there IS such a law mentioned over and over in the Talmud/Mishna. Almost word for word is that quote from the oral law. It was custom in the synagogues for women to be totally silent and only ask their husbands to explain something when they got home.<br /><br /><br /> Paul makes it clear that it is ridiculous in this culminating verse:<br /><br />36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? <br /><br />The King James, ironically, has the best translation of the Greek here. Paul is being sarcastic as in saying...Are you kidding me! The Word of God came from YOU? Or it comes to YOU only?<br /><br />Pastor Denny, please do your homework before you presume to teach others. James says that teachers will be judged more strictly.<br /><br />BTW: Can you give me an example of a paid paid pastor in the NT. Those who are itinerent do not count since they functioned as traveling church planters did not stay long at all.<br /><br />While you are at it, please name for us all the elders and pastors in each church in the NT. Since they are so important in ruling and controlling people, they must all be listed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-40808049304792961292011-01-22T09:11:54.422-05:002011-01-22T09:11:54.422-05:00"An elder was certainly not a lowly servant i..."An elder was certainly not a lowly servant in the first church as you wrote. Whether you want to use the Greek presbuteros or the Greek episkopos they were older men who managed, controlled, and ruled. In the Gospel, the term means on the ruling council."<br /><br />Pastor Denny, you are truly frightening. They "controlled and ruled"?<br /><br />I suppose that means that when the wolves are found out among the elders as Paul warned, one cannot leave or they are in sin for not obeying the human with a title.<br /><br />In your scenerio, one is the role of the Holy Spirit in a believers life since we have humans fulfilling that role in the Body?<br /><br />I suppose all the "one anothers" and 'do not lord it over as the Gentiles do', the Holy Spirit being the Best Teacher and "the greatest among you is the greatest servant of all.....does not apply to elders? Do they get a pass from these NT teachings for the Body?<br /><br />Actually, some NT churches did not have elders. Or they did nto have them for a long time. And it is curious that if an elder is to control and rule that ALL letters were not addressed to them. Wouldn't they be the ones carrying out the instructions? Why address them to the entire church.<br /><br />No, elders are the ones who are most spiritually mature. they will look more like Matthew 5 than what you describe above. They are the most lowly. In fact, scripture describes them as being "among" the believers. Not over them.<br /><br />But I expect you to promote your view since you make your living off the Gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-71124660522009335392011-01-22T07:14:23.057-05:002011-01-22T07:14:23.057-05:00What taxes do you think church's don't pay...What taxes do you think church's don't pay? What do you mean it should be taxed like a business? <br />I have a feeling you don't really know what you are talking about.<br /><br />January 21, 2011 2:46 PM<br /><br />What taxes do churches pay? Do they pay property tax in all states?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-40577263165026964062011-01-21T16:04:56.376-05:002011-01-21T16:04:56.376-05:00I feel sad that the Mega Church pastors are hurtin...I feel sad that the Mega Church pastors are hurting the small church pastors reputations because their lifestyles are so extreme - the FBCJ pastor makes more than the President of the United States. Our family left FBCJ because of the arrogance that is portrayed by the present leadership.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-54783269524439801662011-01-21T16:00:29.152-05:002011-01-21T16:00:29.152-05:00Pastor Denny,
I could care less what a pastor ear...Pastor Denny,<br /><br />I could care less what a pastor earns. I think he should be able to take care of himself and his family, have health insurance, the ability to buy a home, have money invested for retirement and rainy day funds and what ever else he needs. I think it is awesome for a pastor to be financially smart with his money and if that affords him the ability to drive a nice car down the road, then way to go.<br /><br />However, I do think that living lavishly off the tithes of the church is wrong and I think this is what is happening all over the place. I think it is wrong for the pastor and staff to give themselves raises or family lavish jobs or structure payments in such a way that the receiver pays little to no taxes. I think it is wrong for a pastor to try and make you feel like less of a man or challenge your faith if you dont submit to giving up your bank account information for direct tithing. Tell you that God is punishing the world because you are not tithing. These are things that are wrong and make todays mega churches look like christian Enrons and the pastors look like Fastow, Shilling and Lay.<br /><br />If you want to write a book and make some cash, go for it. However, make sure your honest in what you write and your business dealings after the book. Be honest about your testimony. If you want to take on some speaking opportunities, then speak honestly and don't lie. Don't be so strict about your fees and waivers that you skip on the opportunity to speak and share the gospel because the church cant pay do to financial difficulties. Take it for the team and move on.<br /><br />Please understand that I am not lumping all pastors in to the mix, but am pointing out some of the issues I see. I am related to one of these "celebrity Christians" and it bothers me to see how they act in and out of the spot light. I am amazed at the hypocrisy.<br /><br />In the end let me say this. I am not a perfect man. I am one of the worst sinners there is and I have struggles like all men. I have done things in my life that I will take to the grave due to embarrassment and disbelief I did such things. I do however have a respect for God and I would not get behind the pulpit and lie or use God to sell books full of lies or use God to get rich. These things are despicable and I do have to wonder about the heart, morals and salvation of such men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-64333851828430062752011-01-21T15:56:20.709-05:002011-01-21T15:56:20.709-05:00I have been in Baptist churches for many, many yea...I have been in Baptist churches for many, many years. The largest never allow anyone other than a few deacons or trustees know anything about the salary and perks of the pastor and especially his perks and retirement income. The reason is that the congregation would blow a gasket over some of these outlandish amounts if it was all open and shown on the income statements.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-43429322954013664112011-01-21T15:37:48.861-05:002011-01-21T15:37:48.861-05:00Since the Garden of Eden man has always pointed to...Since the Garden of Eden man has always pointed to someone else or something else to blame for their mistakes. Eve did, Adam did, Josephs' brothers did, and a host of others. What a lot of people still do today is blame others for their sins or mistakes in judgement. They don't want to say their flesh is the problem, but it is. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. When the old nature really dies and the glorified body arrives then and only then can we get rid of this old stinking flesh that tears each of us down. We are all in this together whether we like it or not especially those in the church. God help us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-90491818873851974022011-01-21T14:46:06.100-05:002011-01-21T14:46:06.100-05:002:35 Anonymous,
What taxes do you think chur...2:35 Anonymous,<br /><br /> What taxes do you think church's don't pay? What do you mean it should be taxed like a business? <br /> I have a feeling you don't really know what you are talking about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-46246135897600887512011-01-21T14:41:06.798-05:002011-01-21T14:41:06.798-05:00Anon 2:28,
An elder was certainly not a lowly ...Anon 2:28,<br /><br /> An elder was certainly not a lowly servant in the first church as you wrote. Whether you want to use the Greek presbuteros or the Greek episkopos they were older men who managed, controlled, and ruled. In the Gospel, the term means on the ruling council.<br /><br /> Do you think there are some culturally relevant things from the NT church to present church that must change? Do you worship in a home Anon? Does your wife keep her head covered and her mouth sealed in the congregation?<br /><br /> I am always interested to read people who think it is non-NT to pay a pastor, but they sure don't live out the rest of the NT church principles from Pauline theology.<br /><br />Pastor DennyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-88503411245599145592011-01-21T14:35:36.030-05:002011-01-21T14:35:36.030-05:00"I say audit away! Any church that holds that..."I say audit away! Any church that holds that status invited it from the beginning. With so many churches running themselves like businesses, let them be taxed like businesses.<br />"<br /><br />Wouldn't it be wonderful if an audit of Christians found they had given all their pooled money away to those really in need? Just like Acts 4? <br /><br />What a witness that would be. Instead of our fancy buildings and paid professional Christians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-84255789171257720222011-01-21T14:33:21.132-05:002011-01-21T14:33:21.132-05:00"In the early church the believers met and al..."In the early church the believers met and all were involved in the Body. No one was "paid" to be involved or for their spiritual gifts. It really is sad when one thinks about it."<br /><br />Also, the early church were giving money to help other believers who needed help like the widows and persecuted Christians in the Jerusalem church. <br /><br />They were not pooling money to pay some guy to teach in the living room or build a building for their use. Paul, at one time, rented the Hall of Tyrannus when he was in Gentile country to teach because he was run out of other places. But he was out planting churches. Churches which would meet in homes.<br /><br />We love our buildings and we love to pay others to do the things we should be maturing spiritually to do. We want to pay someone else to teach us when we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit whom Jesus said is the BEST TEACHER. We want humans, instead which we never grow past if we are not careful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-80338986747689941692011-01-21T14:28:47.729-05:002011-01-21T14:28:47.729-05:00What's the appropriate salary of a pastor? Amo...What's the appropriate salary of a pastor? Amount of house he should buy in square footage and in cost? How much can he spend on a car?<br /><br />I am a pastor in California and after following this website for over a year I seem to see in almost every post that pastors are making too much, living lavish lifestyles and live an ostentatious lifestyle.<br /><br />So what's the standard? What amount do you want a pastor of a 100-member church with two staff members to make? What amount do you want a pastor of a 10,000-member church with 25 staff members to make?<br /><br />Pastor Denny<br /><br />January 21, 2011 2:18 PM<br /><br />GREAT QUESTION! But the WRONG question. You are starting with a wrong premise so the answers will always be wrong.<br /><br />Look at what Paul said in Acts 20 concerning money. HE GAVE but did not recieve.<br /><br /> Youguys also interprete 1 Tim wrong. Been interpreted wrong for centuries by PAID professional Christians. <br /><br /> The "elder" is due "double honor" when they properly do their job as overseer being a lowly servant. Who in the body is "paid" single honor? The music director? Tradition has translated the wage metaphor to mean you are paid money for being in ministry. Why not? It worked!<br /><br />In fact, the only people given money for expenses in the NT <br />are those "going out" to travel and plant churches. There is absolutely no justification for a "pastor" paid an income from the Body.<br /><br />This is simply "tradition" taught as sciptural truth. It isn't. <br /><br />Go make tents. Ministry is not a career choice. In fact, it is a huge sin trap for you as we can see from this blog when it comes to pastors and money.<br /><br />Why should anyone pay someone else to study the Word for them. Visit the sick for them? Should we pay people to teach us the Word? <br /><br />I am more than happy to support those who are "going out" to share the Gospel in other places. <br /><br />In the early church the believers met and all were involved in the Body. No one was "paid" to be involved or for their spiritual gifts. It really is sad when one thinks about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-33094953183648296642011-01-21T14:18:55.488-05:002011-01-21T14:18:55.488-05:00What's the appropriate salary of a pastor? Am...What's the appropriate salary of a pastor? Amount of house he should buy in square footage and in cost? How much can he spend on a car?<br /><br />I am a pastor in California and after following this website for over a year I seem to see in almost every post that pastors are making too much, living lavish lifestyles and live an ostentatious lifestyle.<br /><br />So what's the standard? What amount do you want a pastor of a 100-member church with two staff members to make? What amount do you want a pastor of a 10,000-member church with 25 staff members to make?<br /><br />Pastor DennyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-64943176302238209152011-01-21T11:41:54.498-05:002011-01-21T11:41:54.498-05:00All this talk of government intervention in church...All this talk of government intervention in church financials, churches invite it upon themselves. The minute an organization applies for and becomes a 501c3 organization, they have bound themselves to be ruled by the regulation of the IRS- a government agency.<br />I say audit away! Any church that holds that status invited it from the beginning. With so many churches running themselves like businesses, let them be taxed like businesses.<br />Want to run a coffee shop out of your church? Great! TAX <br />Want to grant church employees corporate ceo salaries, bonuses, and gifts? Great! TAX <br />Want to run a book store? Great! TAX <br />Charging rent and payment of ministers and staff for weddings? Great! TAX <br />anyway, you get the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-16592378545287749782011-01-21T11:26:39.250-05:002011-01-21T11:26:39.250-05:00Off Topic: Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] ...Off Topic: <a href="http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2011/01/dear-pastor-oliver.html" rel="nofollow">Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] > Dear Pastor Oliver</a>.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.com