tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post8090637775956180299..comments2024-03-23T22:54:58.661-04:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Chris Rosebrough: Caner Kept on Staff at LU to Not Give Victory to Calvinists and BloggersFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-49760483678882706582010-07-30T14:39:32.361-04:002010-07-30T14:39:32.361-04:00Ummm, I checked both links where EC is supposedly...Ummm, I checked both links where EC is supposedly speaking in August at Shadow Mountain (Pastor David Jeremiah's church) and the other conferences in Pigeon Forge, TN. EC is NOT listed at Shawdow Mountain and the Pigeon Forge conference still shows EC as the President and Dean of Liberty Theological Seminary.<br /><br />NO news here. Seems like all that is written is NOT true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-38603369722026286012010-07-04T23:45:00.486-04:002010-07-04T23:45:00.486-04:00Thanks, junk. I misunderstood.
Just don't go...Thanks, junk. I misunderstood.<br /><br />Just don't go gettin' all mushy on me. I might have to smack you.<br /><br />;-)New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-47430421163665051182010-07-04T23:19:07.688-04:002010-07-04T23:19:07.688-04:00New BBC,
Yeah, my "duh" was as wisenhime...New BBC,<br />Yeah, my "duh" was as wisenhimer remark, but it wasn't at what your comments; it was at Rainer's. <br /><br />(Well, at what you summarized him as saying, anyway. But having since read his actual comments that you provided later, what he said was even worse. In the case of Lewis' book. "The Great Divorce", he does seem to be saying they sell it because customers want it. But he's also saying that all the books they sell they sell have been approved by a thorough process that vets the books as being biblically sound -- which is troubling. If the "leadership" that does the reviews thinks that Jakes' teachings are biblically sound, they seriously need to get more theologically astute people on their review board.)<br /><br />You know I love ya! :)<br /><br />-----<br />TomJunksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422651080120306816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-84709710161432092572010-07-04T18:02:23.031-04:002010-07-04T18:02:23.031-04:00Thank you, Lydia. I was going to mention that in a...Thank you, Lydia. I was going to mention that in a follow-up comment, but Blogger was messed up big time last night and posted my long comment 7 times! I finally gave up. It's still quirky today.<br /><br />Yes, it's interesting that TPTB at Lifeway seem to have no problem with Jakes' heresy and some of the other junk on their shelves, but a magazine they regularly stock which happened to contain an article about {gasp!} female pastors one month was kept behind the counter like <i>Playboy</i> at the magazine stand.<br /><br />Channing Kilgore asked the same question at the 2009 SBC, hence Rainer's less than enthusiastic "good to hear from you... again."New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-10792785371518367972010-07-04T15:27:58.216-04:002010-07-04T15:27:58.216-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-24956212451602265432010-07-04T10:12:44.095-04:002010-07-04T10:12:44.095-04:00"Well, duh -- any store sells what its custom..."Well, duh -- any store sells what its customers buy, because the customers buy what the store sells. The customers can't buy what the store doesn't sell -- at least not at the store that doesn't sell it. <br />"<br /><br />But remember the big scandal a few years back about the Evangelical magazine that had 3 women pastors on the front? Lifeway refused to sell it. Then a big meeting was held and they decided to have it under the counter if someone asked for it. But most Lifeway stores did not even sell it then.<br /><br />Seems they make decisions based on strange criteria. Jakes, the anti Trinitarian preacher, is ok to sell but a magazine featuring women pastors is a huge sin.<br /><br />So much for Lifeway.Lydiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17367390474045060624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-69655232659266651022010-07-04T02:14:47.933-04:002010-07-04T02:14:47.933-04:00That should have been Channing Kilgore of South Wh...That should have been Channing Kilgore of South <i>Whitwell</i> Baptist Church. He was a bit mush-mouthed there.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-33166795350445370562010-07-04T01:39:23.527-04:002010-07-04T01:39:23.527-04:00"Well, duh -- any store sells what its custom...<i>"Well, duh -- any store sells what its customers buy, because the customers buy what the store sells. The customers can't buy what the store doesn't sell -- at least not at the store that doesn't sell it."</i><br /> <br />You know what I meant, wisenheimer. Here's the transcript of the questions asked and Thom Rainer's answers. (Sorry for my previous misspelling of his first name.)<br /> <br /><b>Question</b>: My name is Channing Kilgore. I'm a messenger of South Whitwood Baptist Church. Just want to ask Dr. Rainer, can you give me Biblical reasons why T.D. Jakes, who is basically the vice president of a religious group that denies the Trinity, and who uses the same language as this group that denies the Trinity to state his personal views of the Trinity, and why <i>The Shack</i> by William Young, which undermines key doctrines such as the Trinity, the sufficiency of the Bible, and the exclusivity of the gospel of Christ and compares the gospel story of the death, burial, resurrection of our Lord Jesus to a pagan Indian myth story and which two of our great seminary leaders, Dr. Albert Mohler of Southern Seminary and Dr. Paige Patterson of Southwestern Seminary, state that <i>The Shack</i> contains heresy, are sold at Lifeway stores? In short, please give Biblical reasons why T.D. Jakes and <i>The Shack</i> by William Young are sold at Lifeway stores.<br /> <br /><b>Thom Rainer</b>: Thank you, Channing. Good to hear from you... again. Uh... the... the issue about product standards is one that I knew very little about before I came to Lifeway. When I came to Lifeway one of the things I began to do is to ask how do we choose the products and the books that we sell in our Lifeway Christian Stores. And I must say that I was absolutely amazed at how thorough this process is. I was absolutely amazed at how Biblical foundations were used to go through every single potential book, unlike any publisher and unlike any Christian retailer.<br /> <br />I have full confidence in our process. I have full confidence in our leadership who does this. I know there's a wide variety of views across the Southern Baptist Convention about what Lifeway Christian stores should sell or shouldn't sell. As a matter of fact, if we took the advice of every Southern Baptist who spoke to us we would sell nothing. The reality of it is there are tough decisions to be made. There was one book that I really struggled with. It was a fiction book. And it was a book that... in my view... actually demonstrated purgatory... and... second chance salvation. I asked... why are we carrying this book, and people told me that this book, <i>The Great Divorce</i> by C.S. Lewis, was one that Southern Baptists have asked to read. Frankly, that fiction book is still in our store.<br /> <br />You know what, folks? I trust Southern Baptists. I trust your discernment. And quite frankly, I don't think you want us telling you every single book that you can or cannot read. Thank you.<br /> <br /><b>Question</b>: Yes, my name is Trevor Love. I'm from Franconia Baptist Church. I'm a messenger in Alexandria, Virginia, and I was wondering if Dr. Rainer could uh... share with us what those criteria are for inclusion and exclusion of the resources at Lifeway Christian stores.<br /> <br /><b>Thom Rainer</b>: I would be happy to. I'm not going to be able to in this brief time. That is not evasive. I will simply say that you are free to contact our Lifeway Christian Store leadership. We have an entire screening process uh... that we go through. It is not the most simple thing in the world, and we'll be happy to provide it to you.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-8564528529369530272010-07-04T01:00:04.043-04:002010-07-04T01:00:04.043-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-61501817339603865292010-07-04T01:00:04.042-04:002010-07-04T01:00:04.042-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-57579088949250987112010-07-04T00:57:18.178-04:002010-07-04T00:57:18.178-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-91899271915530357762010-07-04T00:57:18.180-04:002010-07-04T00:57:18.180-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-69553932208507962332010-07-03T23:12:10.338-04:002010-07-03T23:12:10.338-04:00Did anyone see today's "Garfield" co...Did anyone see today's "Garfield" comic strip? Very appropriate to the Ergun Caner debacle:<br /><br />Jon: "You can't change the past."<br /><br />Garfield: "True. That's why they invented lying." <br /><br />Says it all, doesn't it? <br /><br />DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-81702825731203786902010-07-03T20:33:46.782-04:002010-07-03T20:33:46.782-04:00New BBC Open Forum said...
In fact, someone asked ...<i>New BBC Open Forum said...<br />In fact, someone asked Tom Rainer during a Q&A time at the the SBC this year why Lifeway continues to sell Jakes' books, and Rainer replied (basically) Lifeway sells what their customers buy.</i><br /><br />Well, duh -- any store sells what its customers buy, because the customers buy what the store sells. The customers can't buy what the store doesn't sell -- at least not at the store that doesn't sell it. <br /><br />What he really means is they sell books that are making money for other stores, and it is more important to them that they make money selling books than that they sell good books. I'm all for a business maximizing profits, but that ought not to be the primary consideration for an SBC agency. <br /><br />With that logic, they should starting teaching Jakes' theology in the SBC seminaries, because it would attract more students and thus bring in more tuition revenues to the seminaries. Then they could say "We teach that theology because it is what brings in the students." <br /><br />Likewise, churches should stop teaching sound doctrine and focus on whatever brings in as many members as possible -- oh, wait -- that's already happening...Junksterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14422651080120306816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-24018660223603805742010-07-03T19:32:29.978-04:002010-07-03T19:32:29.978-04:00"Sooo, what's wrong with Glenn Beck?"...<i>"Sooo, what's wrong with Glenn Beck?"</i><br /><br />Haven't you heard? He's... shhhhh... Mormon.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-79436523842665046472010-07-03T17:58:05.605-04:002010-07-03T17:58:05.605-04:00Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [Jam...<a href="http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4024" rel="nofollow">Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Of Joseph Smith and Ergun Caner (Part 1)</a><br /><br /><a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/07/geisler-digs-yet-deeper.html" rel="nofollow">Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Geisler Digs Yet Deeper!</a><br /><br /><a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/07/responding-to-norman-geislers-defense.html" rel="nofollow">Thoughts of Francis Turretin > Responding to Norman Geisler's Defense of Ergun Caner - Part 1</a>Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-84393217218649686882010-07-03T17:44:49.299-04:002010-07-03T17:44:49.299-04:00". Rosebrough is an evangelical believer and ...". Rosebrough is an evangelical believer and is calling out false doctrine as he sees it."<br /><br />The commenter does not understand what Rosebrough is doing. He does the same thing that Ingrid Schlueter of the old "Slice of Laodicea" blog, did and is doing now with her Crosstalk Blog.<br /><br />They are pointing out the commercialization of the Gospel. And what has become the circus of the church.<br /><br />Baptists tend to have suspicion about anyone who is not Baptist. That is understandable but remember this: The SBC is no longer what we have always thought was distinctly Baptist: Priesthood of the Believers and Soul Competency.<br /><br />Those things are pretty much long gone after the CR. We look more like Rome every day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-3371182939941742622010-07-03T17:35:04.834-04:002010-07-03T17:35:04.834-04:00Anon 12:44: Sooo, what's wrong with Glenn Be...Anon 12:44: Sooo, what's wrong with Glenn Beck? I like him. At least he is honest and presents the truth. Wish we had more Glenn Beck's around!!! Especially in Baptist churches.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-15957979204233102532010-07-03T17:32:48.311-04:002010-07-03T17:32:48.311-04:00Norman Geisler > In Defense of Dr. Ergun Caner:...<a href="http://www.normangeisler.net/indefenseofcaner.html" rel="nofollow">Norman Geisler > In Defense of Dr. Ergun Caner: A Response to His Critics</a><br /><br />Thanks to <a href="http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2010/06/my-email-to-dr-norman-geisler-and-his.html?showComment=1278190434294#c1816880070989571034" rel="nofollow">Cheryl Schatz</a> for the link.Rameshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09728392311602332613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-37955824723934079662010-07-03T16:23:28.952-04:002010-07-03T16:23:28.952-04:00"I can find no evidence of Jakes preaching at...<i>"I can find no evidence of Jakes preaching at Saddleback.</i><br /><br />T.D. Jakes has preached at Ed Young, Jr.'s church, and Lifeway Christian Stores carries Jakes' books. In fact, someone asked Tom Rainer during a Q&A time at the the SBC this year why Lifeway continues to sell Jakes' books, and Rainer replied (basically) Lifeway sells what their customers buy.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-39532749791282909282010-07-03T13:51:39.665-04:002010-07-03T13:51:39.665-04:00Anon - I respectfully disagree with you about Rose...Anon - I respectfully disagree with you about Rosebrough. I have listened to him for quite some time. He most certainly is not pushing "Lutheran" theology. He rarely mentions his church, but is a very solid believer in Christ and the gospel. He doesn't care for this modernization of the gospel and all the marketing and gimmicks that church growers engage in, and he says so and uses scripture.<br /><br />He really is after those folks like Rick Warren and Perry Noble that he calls "purpose driven" and also the "emergent church", and he is very analytical. He doesn't take pot shots, he analyzes the words they speak and comments on them. It is not at all personal but theological. He uses their own sermons, plays their sermons, and critiques their theology. <br /><br />I'm not saying let's all go and follow Chris Rosebrough. I'm saying he is a voice of reason in the evangelical circles who is not afraid to take on the false teachers or those who go outside the bounds of what it is to be a pastor - like he was not afraid to call out Ed Young for his hypocrisy and his jet setting life style, and he's not afraid to take on Caner, and just this week he read an entire article by Ed Stetzer on "contextualization" and he gave a fair critique of that. His independence from being reliant on any church denomination allows him to be as frank as he is. I like it. <br /><br />I don't at all see the comparison with Glenn Beck. Beck is a Mormon. He is a political commentator. Rosebrough is an evangelical believer and is calling out false doctrine as he sees it.<br /><br />I like him, and recommend him to WD readers - but if you think he is not worth listening to, then pass him over.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-89192693020531653772010-07-03T12:49:12.025-04:002010-07-03T12:49:12.025-04:00At the start of this discussion, I think that few ...At the start of this discussion, I think that few of EC's "accusers" had any personal feelings about him. I know that I did not. He was simply a fellow (in a position of high status and trust) who had obviously distorted his life history. I regarded this situation as inappropriate and occasionally pointed out some issue or other. As time has passed and the extent of the distortion has become more apparent, my feelings toward EC have become better defined--and much more negative.<br /><br />His "defenders" are significantly responsible for this. EC's "defenders" (almost) uniformly have attacked the messenger. They have done this with some of the most vicious words I have seen used on the Internet. I cannot recall anyone who defended EC doing so based on the information that is available. Some have pleaded for “innocent until proven guilty—and then disappeared now that the guilty verdict has come back. Some have said that we should wait for the LU report—and claimed that it “exonerated” EC. Some have "hypothesized" excuses for some of the statements—and have failed to produce documentation for their hypotheses. But the largest group by far has simply attacked the people who feel that EC needs to do something because much of his telling of his life story appears to be a fable.<br /><br />The obvious conclusion is that EC made up things that improved his street credibility regarding Islam--this is his "Baptist street” credibility. LU decided that these lies mattered--but not so much. Norman Geisler decided that it did not matter at all--and had not even occurred. John Ankerberg saw and heard no evil—in fact he saw and heard nothing on this subject. We now have “too much information” about all of these.<br /><br />The only thing that I personally have gained from all this is a lot of knowledge about both people in general and also about specific individuals. I’m ready to move on—and will do so as soon as the “defenders” stop trying to defend the indefensible. It may be a while.<br /><br />This comment has been left on several threads.Bennett Willishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01200940136846753450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-89308262964953114372010-07-03T12:44:35.294-04:002010-07-03T12:44:35.294-04:00Watchdog,
I really enjoy your blog and completely...Watchdog,<br /><br />I really enjoy your blog and completely support your cause. However, I don't feel you should endorse Chris Rosenbrough. I find his podcast hateful and judgmental. It seems as though anything that is not Lutheran is automatically in his sites. <br /><br />I think he wants to drum up publicity, and so he has taken on a Glenn Beck persona- where everything he disagrees with is something that will DESTROY Christianity.<br /><br />You do not want to be associated with that blog or podcast. You are doing the Lord's work, keep it up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-73596481145226312202010-07-03T10:19:10.740-04:002010-07-03T10:19:10.740-04:00I wonder if the person who wrote so admiringly of ...I wonder if the person who wrote so admiringly of Warren had the chance to read the transforming the church thread at Pastors.com (before they privatized it) would still think the same way.<br /><br />It sounded like a bunch of wolves giving each other tips how to get rid of anyone in their churches who dared disagree with them. That is the legacy of Warren.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-7215756247613516132010-07-03T10:16:58.436-04:002010-07-03T10:16:58.436-04:00I said, "Rick Warren let's Bishop Jakes c...I said, "Rick Warren let's Bishop Jakes come preach in Saddleback."<br /><br />But I need to retract that statement. I got Saddleback confused with another west coast church: Conerstone in San Diego, CA.<br /><br />Therefore what I went on to say was quite unfair to Mr. Warren. As such it is sin, and I repent of it, apologizing publicly to you all, and to Mr. Warren in particular. Here is what I said: <br /><br />"So Warren could care less about Jakes eternal destination, which is hell, unless Jakes repents. And Warren could care less about our Lord who Warren says that he believes. Cause if Warren did love the Lord, he would never ever let Jakes come preach another christ in Saddleback."<br />------------------<br />I can find no evidence of Jakes preaching at Saddleback. <br /><br />However, Saddlebackfamily.com speaks quite favorably of TD Jakes and extends unqualified approval of what Jakes teaches:<br /><br />"Pastor and author T.D. Jakes states in his book, The Ten Commandments of Working in a Hostile Environment: “God purposely placed you right where you are. You may experience budget cuts, financial trouble, layoffs, or communication problems on your job. But God sent you there with an anointing to get the job done. He has a reason for his maneuver and you have a purpose for your life. Your co-workers don’t need a sermon; they can get that on television. Your job, however, is your pulpit. How you conduct yourself should reflect what you believe and serve as a testimony to God’s will" (2). (Living On Purpose In The Workplace by Ken Alvarado)gary dilworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06447173908213258470noreply@blogger.com