Obama and the Democrats have their "Fairness Doctrine".Brunson and the Trustees have their "Anti-Criticism Doctrine".
Below is the video of the motion read and passed at FBC Jacksonville on February 25, 2009 that passes judgement and condemns the FBC Jax Watchdog blog and its accused blogger (as well as giving factually incorrect and misleading allegations about both), and also delivers their new policy, warning that deacons will "confront aggressively in accordance with scripture" those who say things in the future they think are divisive or constitute "unjust criticism and ridicule". Not just lies they are going after, but "unjust criticism" will be deserving of being "confronted aggressively".
After seeing and hearing that motion, I have more questions than answers:
- "aggressively confront in accordance with scripture"....is that not an oxymoron? Sort of like "I'm going to kick your butt...in accordance with scripture";
- was there any love or grace or mercy of any kind in that edict read?
- Considering the edict itself has incorrect and harmful and misleading information about the accused member, how hypocritical is it for this edict to contain admonitions to those who express "harmful opinions and false statements"?
- how does this new doctrine square with Mac's message this past Sunday about how we as Christians are to endure affliction without striking back, and to be patient to those who abuse us, for Christ's sake and the sake of the gospel and the abuser?
- "Unjust criticism and ridicule of the ministry..."? We need to vote on a motion addressing criticism and ridicule?
- I thought the pastor said blogs were nothing more than "beauty shop gossip" and that anonymous bloggers have zero credibility? So how is this blog so dangerous to the spiritual and financial health of the church? Or is it widespread dissemination of the facts (not lies) on the blog that are causing harm?
- where were the 8 minute business meeting motions from our deacons in years past addressing the evil of child molestation by deacons, and adultery by ministers?
- isn't this edict closer to what Islamic fundamentalists would read, than would ministers of the grace and love of Jesus Christ? You say something we don't like that we think is divisive and hurtful, we're going to come after you and "shut you down".
- I thought we were Theology Driven, and that the bible is sufficient in all matters...why do we need an edict read by the retired judge, President of the Trustees to address blogs and criticism?
- was a quorum present to pass this? Were there 1000 members present to vote on this? Did I just ask that? You better believe I did.
- if Homer were here and faced this problem, would he address it himself with the accused and then personally to his congregation, or would he send the president of the trustees out to read a cold, unloving edict while he's out of town? Just askin'....
- are you as surprised as I was that our lay leaders really did buy into Mac's "church discipline is to put the fear of God in you?"
- don't you love Bro. Jim Whitmire? You could sense his uncomfortableness with having to clean up after that mess, but his sweet spirit did bring the service back to a worshipful atmosphere. God bless you, Bro. Jim, you are a spiritual giant among some mighty puny men.
Watchdog will have plenty more to say on this motion in the coming days, particularly the false and misleading portions of the "Anti-Criticism Doctrine of 2009"
One last question: is this what we've become and are all about? Edicts about blogs, opinions, false statements and criticism and aggressive confrontation?
Followed by applause? What WERE they applauding?
A dark day indeed in the history of FBC Jacksonville.
107 comments:
The incredible notion that a member of a church should be shunned, persecuted or disciplined for simply asking questions of the pastor has more in common with the cultic practices of Jim Jones than the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Check the closing,
Jim Whitmire saying that "..not one sparrow is forgotten in God's sight"....
including the watchdog?
A very sad and dark day(s) for ALL Christians.
I do not believe Fbc Jax has followed the Christian Way to resolve or "engage" this debate and questioning.
I clearly am not Watchdog, nor am I one of the former members of Fbc Jax. This fight can only be sustained by the will of WD and other former members who have born the brunt of Mac. I personally like Pastor Mac and profited much from his teachings, and I also immensely benefited under Fbc Jax music ministry, though here I question Pastor Mac's tactics and "manipulation".
How would Lindsay Jr. have handled this matter? Compare that with Mac's.
If somehow WD and others can sustain this blog or some other blogs, eventually the criticism from other Christians and the world will pour in. I do not favor guerilla tactics, but it appears that is where this engagement is heading.
I do not know if WD and others have internal fortitude to wage this battle. I sincerely pray for God's Grace and Mercy in their struggle to bring to bear the public opinion against the practices of Fbc Jax leadership.
WD... I agree with your assesement once again! where is Jesus in this situation? I sat there last night and my soul was grieved that this church would spend the tithes, time, and energy on this negative activity and yet there are precious souls that are going to hell right outside the doors of the church.
I also sat there when Keith Hill asked everyone to stand and thinking to myself, Dr. Lindsay would be rolling over in his grave at the behavior of this church.
Again I say its a sad day when a church spends so much time on this negative activity while souls are dying and going hell right out side the doors of the church.. by the way, when was the last time we heard our preacher or staff member talk about leading someone to Jesus, witnessing, or doing God's work.
I am sure we will hear that Brunson and his wife were once again on a vacation, I believe this time is a cruise to Mexico on the backs of the church, which by the way is about $150K under budget.
Thanks WD
notice the wording on the resolution," And whereas such opinions and false statements have the potential of causing financial and spiritual risk and damage to the church and its personnel, ministries, reputation, and good will however and by whatever means communicated as well as having the intent to be divisive and cause strife and disgruntlement among church members against the ministries, staff, leadership, pastor, and people."
There is more concern for Financial than spiritual based on it's priority.
sb
I got your back ole buddy,
I have been following the fun and games down at the once mighty bastion of faith in Jax and frankly cannot believe that AC Soud-ie, Bob Harrison, Little Kevin King, Johnny Boy Blount, David Kay, Keith Hill and Tom Stim-winder, (who all sat under both Dr Lindsay's) can so easily forget the foundation FBC Jax was built upon. Shame on you small minded yes men. So sad the this church is now run by the monied elite (why do you think the new campus will be out in Ponte Vedra/Nocotee, to attract more monied elite) and poor working men are no longer "trusted" to do the Lord's work. From changes in Sunday School to the counseling room, the elite are consolidating power and forcing-cohersing everyone else to march in lock step unison. Sad day indeed but hey, what entertainment to read about, like watching Springer. Fascinating but sad.
Keep it up dog, us poor dumb country folk out here in the woods need the entertainment!
WD,
Did you ever get a copy of the audio from the Monday night deacon meeting? If so, please post it.
Tom,
Your comment: "Followed by applause? What WERE they applauding?".
We were applauding action that is needed, long overdue and appropriate. Also, don't be so arrogant - while this resolution was started because of you, it was certainly meant to be a general guiding principle for future attacks of this kind.
anon 9:37 -
It's funny how you have criticized the watchdog for doing his thing anonymous, yet you make your post to him (assuming it is the accused, using the accused first name) as an anonymous post.
Where's your boldness? Sign your name you coward.
Yep, anon 9:37, that's just what YOUR lord and saviour did while on this earth. Attack the attacker. Smash the face of any who dare "dis" the big baptissss chu-ch.
Wow, so glad I'm a heee-then.
Pass the popcorn dog, the fun continues.
Did retired Judge A.C. Soud, Jr. also inform the congregation that the wife of the accused was issued trespass warnings for the "sin of associating with her husband.?" If not mentioned, why not? Is he ashamed he signed his name to a letter banning this sweet Christian lady from the church for NO REASON? That sounds like bullying to me, Mr. Soud. You, personally, owe this Christian lady an apology. Or at least tell the church what you did to her and why. Thanks, Mr. Soud.
Sure, the name "anon 9:37" is not anonymous at all.
Anon. February 26, 2009 9:50 AM:
There's a whole lot that wasn't said last night & there's a whole lot that was deliberately left out at the deacon's meeting.
They probably quickly quickly quickly rammed all this through kind of like Obama pushed through the so-called stimulus pkg.-- if we don't push this through then who knows what's going to happen! It could be disastrous for all concerned! Why it's already been disastrous for 99.9% of the members at FBC downtown campus.
But the disastrous result for the whole of FBC is having a group of men who were willing to ram this through by deliberately presenting only a small part of the story.
By the way, at the hatchet job meeting last night, most stood because it was meant to be deliberately intimidating not to do so. I didn't stand because it was too hypocritical to stand for something that was worded so badly it came across as a "SHUT UP OR WE WILL FIND YOU, WE WILL TRACK YOU DOWN!" Never mind ever ever admitting that there has been ANY wrong done. Just intimidate people and the questions and disagreement will go away. None of it will go away. I believe they have made things much worse.
DD - a little levity is fine, but really at this point with new people coming to this site today to see what last night was all about, I don't want them to get the wrong idea.
This site is not about lies, or false information, and its not about the ministry, staff, and people of FBC Jax. Its not about A.C. Soud or his family. I love and respect A.C. Soud and always will.
It is a site about Mac Brunson, and yes at times Jim Smyrl who is his right hand man.
But I have sought not to spread lies, or rumors, or innuendo. It has been to shine light on words and deeds of the top man at the church, and give my opinions and analysis on the same. Oh yes, the WD has taken liberties in poking fun of, what they might call "ridiculing", but always mixed with truth and the words and actions of Mac Brunson himself. Its called parody, getting people to see the truth through humor - but apparently that is a sin (ridicule) that must be stopped by the deacons of FBC Jax.
In the coming days I will give my response, line by line, of what was said in that edict - an edict that has false and misleading information about a former member, while at the same time telling people they better not be on the Internet giving false and misleading information about the church. It is absolutely unbelievable that they have stooped this low to defend a man.
Let me make sure I got this straight. The deacons and trustees decided NOT to discipline this former member they banned from the property and who they accused of being the blogger. Instead they issued a resolution saying they will aggressively discipline others who are divisive. So the blogger gets a pass, but the rest of us (deacons, staff and trustees included) stood up to ratify them coming after us if we ever say anything the pastor deems divisive opinion.
I am amazed that so many intelligent, Christian men can be so S-T-U-P-I-D!
You mean to tell me that Donald [Mac] Brunson was not at the EVENTFUL church business meeting? Are you kidding me? Who is the coward here?
WD - was the accused (or the Watchdog if different) EVER approached by anyone at the church in accordance with Matthew 18? Was the accused/Watchdog EVER asked to take down the blog because it was harming the church or the pastor?
You make a great point. If the blog has no credibility due to it being anonymous, and if the pastor views it as beauty shop gossip, THEN WHY THE NEED TO SHUT IT DOWN?
Was the pastor lying when he said those things? Or did he change his mind and now admits the blog is credible and is influential?
These guys are so inconsistent. If one tough stance doesn't work, try another. Yet they never tried Biblical efforts, and never tried to talk with the blogger.
Watchdog, can you really with a straight face say this site hasn't ridiculed the staff at the FBC? There are a whole lot of things wrong with this blog. There have been a few times you have gotten it right, i.e. Sheri Klouda. I am not supporting this blog. But, I am also watching with interest this response by FBC. Why? Cause southern baptist churches are really interesting places sometimes. My life has been so SEVERELY affected by them that I can't help but watch this situation. Its like watching a train wreck. Yup. And so now, where is the line going to be drawn on what appropriate criticism is and what it isn't? And I have to ask, has Darrell Gilyard been excommunicated from the SB Church yet? So watchdog, with your "analysis" and "comments" you may have succeeded in shutting down the ability of ANYONE to make a comment in a church without the eyes of big brother on them. This is a little wacky. Yet, what were they supposed to do? I really thought they were going to take you to court. But I guess they tied their own hands on that one. This is really a strange situation and again I ask, where is the line going to be drawn now? I guess some of my comments on here, when I agreed with you on sheri klouda and stuff, were a sin. I don't know. Were they?
Whereas....ole floppy eared one, I will keep my wicked sense of humor and parody to a minimum but I do think those treeeees need some ribbing. I think AC/DC and the other elite take themselves way too seriously in their Hickey Freemen and Brooks Brothers. Enough starch in their collars to keep us all stiff.........
Anon - I hope some are getting the picture.
Matthew 18 was never complied with.
No attempt was made to send one person, then two, to talk to the accused.
Nope, Matt 18 didn't matter.
As I have blogged about here, the discipline process STARTED....it STARTED....with Blount and King serving the accused trespass warnings.
But that was left out of the edict.
They forgot to put in the edict:
"Whereas if anyone is accused of being divisive, we the deacons are compelled to issue trespass warnings to such divisive people and their spouses, until such time as they confess and repent."
Can you say Scarlet Letter?
Dr.Dog....IT IS OVERRRRRRRR..for First BAPTIST church of Jax;;It has offically become First Brunson Church of Jax..The trustee's and deacons are either afraid or clueless as to the reality of what is happening to this once great Church....Brunson is skillfully turning this Church into a Laodicean church....Brunson has everybody fooled EXCEPT those who know and believe the literal warnings of the Scripture that reveal that opportunist would infiltrate the Church in the last days..Greedy individual out for their own benefit and with their own agenda's.....What will happen now is Brunson will appear to have a string of victories that will deceive him into thinking he's untouchable..He will continue too pursue his AGENDA(not God's)believing he is absolutely correct about everything..Then one day God in His own time will pull the rug out from under him....Dr.Dog as I have said several times you have done your job MAGNIFICENTLY which was to expose the Brunson inequities..Now God will do His Part!!....P.S...Don't stop blogging until YOU feel complelled to!!!!
It seems that many people here are only seein the negative one one side of the issue.
I think that WD has handled this very badly.
Just as the church should have sent ONE person TO him to confront him about his actions (followed by two, followed by bringing it up to the church, etc), WD should have gone to Dr. Brunson with his questions and concerns. The tactics he chose to use were divisive and I think it is the TACTICS (not the fact that he is questioning a pastor... Dr. Vines and Lindsay always told us to compare statements and actions against scripture) that were used by WD that were questionable here. The way he went about "questioning" his pastor and other staff members was designed to be divisive (whether or not that was his intention) and churches have split over much less.
In my opinion, if a person has a question or concern about the way something is being handled, that person should go directly to the offender. If their questions or concerns are not satisfied, they should find somewhere else to worship.
Yes, it seems that FBCJ has let this get out of hand in the way they responded.
But I do agree that a response was needed.
I just wish it would have been the Biblical response.
anon 9:02
Do you listen to the sermons? To answer your question, the last time I heard about the witnessing topic was very recent; in fact during services over the past few weeks I have heard many references. For example, I think it was last Wed. night when Dr. Smryl spoke about sharing the gospel with a worker at a Starbucks. Dr. Brunson always talks about sharing the gospel. Please don't be in denial!
Hi Erin - I will never accept responsibility for what happens at FBC Jax, whether it be good or bad. I have a blog. Yep, a website. It is a blog that has commented on the words and actions of Mac Brunson primarily.
Not innuendo. Words and actions. With video/audio to back it up. Mixed with some irreverent humor. And my opinion of course.
What is so ironic is those men on the stage last night, and those who met with Blount on Monday night, who are passing judging on the watchdog for this site are the same people who listen to the likes of Hannity and Rush and yuck it up over their nit-picking and scrutiny and analysis and poking fun at Obama and Clinton and democrats. They love it! But if its their pastor who is being analyzed and parodied, they can't take it and use the Bible to beat up those who do it. That is the irony of all of this.
How a man and his close supporters react to public scrutiny and analysis by critics says MUCH about the man. One of the reasons we (I at least) respected Bush so much is how he handled the intense criticism and hatred he faced for 8 years. He never used his position of power to strike back at his detractors. He didn't send out his close allies to issue edicts to silence those criticizing him. He stuck his nose to the wheel, did his task, and get this: Bush had faith in God that he would take care of the detractors Himself, if Bush just did every day what he felt God had called him to do. Oh that our church leaders could learn that lesson from President George W. Bush.
As I have said many times, Mac could humble himself and address the concerns expressed here with his congregation at any time. Explain the land gift and explain why it was "ok". Explain the comments in North Carolina. Explain the thought process of the son and wife on staff and how that came about.
The argument is that "well, once we address those concerns, there will be more, the bloggers will never be happy and will always have questions."
OK, answer those.
And then you make a blog completely irrelevant.
Now, if there is illegal activity on this blog, by all means shut it down. Point out the lies and slander, and shut it down.
Those accusations may be coming.
We shall see.
Grr! Sorry, that should have read:
"It seems that many people here are only seeing the negative on one side of the issue."
Erin what are we bloogers missing?..Please explain..Thanks.
Let this new policy or statement or whatever it is be 'Appendix A' in the next printing of Mac's Book 'Why Churches Die'.
Aren't the people who sat to "vote no" criticizing the resolution and thus open to disciplinary action? just wondering....
HE WASN'T THERE: OR, WAS HE ????
UNDER THE RADAR-Hmmmm
Mac has said we are not PURPOSE DRIVEN.
Was Mac there when the 40 day purpose driven course was taught?
No, John Blunt taught that course.
Was Mac behind the starting of SMALL GROUPS in Sunday School?
No, it just happened I guess!!!
Was Mac in charge of any of the PURPOSE DRIVEN changes that FBCJ has undergone in the last 3 years?
No, because as he has said over and over again "WE ARE NOT PURPOSE DRIVEN"
Was Mac in charged when they secretly changed the bylaws?
No, trustees must have wanted to circle the wagons around the pastor.
Was Mac worried about the Watchdog blog?
No, the bloggers are just a bunch of silly old ladies telling old wives tales; and besides who listens to them?
Was Mac Brunson even mentioned in the business meeting?
No, the Trustees and the Deacons did it all.
Was Mac even at the business meeting?
No, he was not there.
No, Mac is not behind any of this!!!
Well since Mac's not behind any of this. WHO'S IN CHARGE DOWN THERE
????
Question for all the baptisssss and Kool-aid drinkers out there.
What does the Obama Admin and FBCJax Admin have in common.......mmmmm
Come on, you can do it. That's right.
Answer: Stut down dissent and anyone that questions or (heaven forbid) criticizes their words or actions. It's their way or the highway.
I got your back side dog, sorta like Eddie Farrah. This is so rich. Please pass the cold adult beverages and popcorn, whole lot of entertainment going on.
Let the WD speak on behalf of Judge Soud.
Anyone at the church will tell you he is a very godly man, with high moral integrity, and is probably the finest bible teachers in the church.
So I can't explain last night. It STILL does not diminish my respect for Judge Soud one bit. I can only imagine he sees the church at which he served with Homer Lindsay, Sr. and Jr. going into decline, and he and others are looking for a scapegoat. Its very easy and convenient to blame a blogger in his underwear, and not the man who is at the top charged with leading one of the largest churches in the SBC. Maybe Judge Soud is sore over the WD's criticism of the Night to Stand With Israel that he and wife hosted back in 2007, or the WD's criticism of the pre-Thanksgiving message to Brunson on the FBC website.
Keith Hill is a very humble, godly servant. A wonderful man who has an impeccable reputation of being honest and trustworthy. So I don't hold anything against him either. I can't explain last night. Perhaps Mr. Hill and other deacons don't know the entire story, perhaps many of them refuse to read the blog and they have been told its lies and slander and can't bring themselves to read it and they believe what they are told. Perhaps they haven't been told about trespass warnings, the wife being banned, that the accussed offered over and over again to meet with the committee...and certainly they were lied to about the accused joining another church only after he found out that the discipline committee was bringing action against him. That is exactly the OPPOSITE of the facts, as the WD will explain in the coming days.
So I REFUSE to throw these men that have served faithfully at the church under the bus because of this one evening.
Mark-ie, Mark
Witnesssssing to a worker at Starbucks is a little like proposing to a waitress at Hooters. Salvation is the most important decision an indiviual will ever make and you seem to think you can rope someone in on the spur of the moment. You baptisssss Kool aid drinkers amaze me. Smeryl is a real pearl and starting starting to sound like Saint Kenny St John.
Not a perfect analogy, but:
Contrast last night to how Vines handled the nationwide criticism about his "demon-possessed pedophile" remarks some years ago.
Vines waited until he was in front of his congregation on a Sunday morning in front of the majority of his church members. He gave a loving, truthful answer to the accusations against him.
He didn't attack those who have called him every name in the book.
He didn't seek to silence anyone who spoke ill of him for saying what he said.
He just gave an answer for what he said.
He didn't do it on a Wednesday night with a few hundred people.
He didn't have the prez of the trustees do it when he was out of town.
He didn't get the deacons to ratify his statement.
He didn't ask the church to stand in agreement with him, because it really didn't matter whether they agreed with him as to why he did what he did.
But we DID stand in agreement with him, and he DIDN'T HAVE TO ASK US TO STAND!!! WE GAVE HIM A STANDING OVATION.
Brunson, if he agrees with what was said last night, why not tell that himself to the congregation on a Sunday morning or night? Let the whole church hear it. Why does it have to be voted on by deacons? Why does he want it ratified by the church members? He already changed the bylaws to give a discipline committee authority to do what they need to do against sinning church members, so why now ANOTHER motion?
And why read this motion, and not read a motion describing the bylaw changes before they vote?
You know the answers, I think.
As I said, the motion raises many more questions than it answers.
Disent is a very important attribute. Without it entire nations and civilizations have been destroyed. Today and for the last several months we have observed how the financial woes of all of us started and ends in Washington DC. If someone had stood up and had brought to the attention of the American people that those being loaned money were never able to afford a home, CEO's taking billions of commissions on money that would never be repaid, then and only then possibly something could have stopped this downfall.
A wise man will listen to his advisors pro or con...otherwise chaos will occur. That is what is taking place everywhere..chaos!!
Ok. I finally was able to view the video.
I support the resolution.
And I would have supported the resolution if it had been applied in this case.
However, it was not. There's one stubborn phrase in the resolution that keeps sticking out: "in accordance with scripture."
There are ways to disagree without causing a sense of division.
BUT, if the church had handled this "in accordance with scripture", we'd likely not have a problem anymore.
Hello to The Dog's Dog,
Wow, you're a funny one. Based on your statement,should I conclude thatyou can only witness to people in ideal situations, such as when there is ample time to read the key verses in John and Romans? Do you really believe that people can't be saved at the "spur of the moment?" I've seen numerous people come to Jesus in such times. While it may not be as effective as lifestyle evangelism and getting lost people in church to hear the gospel, "spur of the moment" witnessing can a least plant a seed. You're absolutely right; salvation is the most important decison for everybody! I believe that God is powerful and can work in many circumstances and honors the obedience of His servants when they open their mouths and proclaim the name of Jesus! We have to remind ourselves not to allow our limited minds to undermine our understanding of what our omnipotent God can do!
Another topic: The fact that you think of what is going on here is "fun" and "entertainment" is a bold statement of your character. That is also a reflection of a society that has an irritating obsession with humor. Not everything has to be funny and there is certainly nothing funny about this blog!
Watchdog:
The deacons & discipline committee members you mentioned DID NOT get the whole story. They were spoon-fed just the parts of the story that someone wanted them to hear.
I would not be proud -- in fact I would bow my head in shame -- if I was the person who has been spoon-feeding the deacons & discipline committee just parts of a story, which translates to LYING & caused these godly men to act in a way that is displeasing to our Lord Jesus Christ. Just wait and see what happens when one by one they realize they've been lied to.
Mr. Pennington:
What are you doing on this blog if it makes you so unhappy? How do you even know about it?
Dr.Dog BBC.FORUM BLOG FROM YOUR PREVIOUS ENTRY HITS THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!!!...."I don't know Mr. Soud from Adam. Never heard of him until the recent chatter on your blog. He may very well be "well-respected" in your community, but I've come to realize that "well-respected" is often just a code word for "rich" -- regardless of how someone arrived. There are lots of "well-respected men in the community" at Bellevue who've exhibited similar behavior and worse. We were just a year or so ahead of you in this process and got to see it sooner. My impression of him was he's a short, milquetoast of a man with a bad dye job and a Napoleon complex. He did not appear to be comfortable up there and didn't impress me at all. It's been my observation that when these guys are, shall we say, "embellishing" something that they "uh" and "um" and "ah" and trip all over their tongues. You heard that with Mr. Soud. We've seen it with Steve Gaines and Paige Patterson. These guys are veteran public speakers, and when they're comfortable and being truthful they're smooth as silk, but when they're not they fall apart.
I know nothing of his reputation as a judge, but if he will go along with this charade, if he will stand in the pulpit of a church and lie through his teeth, it makes me think there is more than meets the eye and that perhaps he could have sometimes been "influenced" in his role as a judge, too. Of course, that's just my impression.
The deacon chairman looked like a sad, beaten-down man who would rather not have been there, but by golly he's going to go along to keep his position and the "prestige" it carries with it. His humble demeanor while carrying out the "vote" only made him appear gutless. "I would appreciate it if you would approve this motion by standing. {pauses while most of congregation stands} Thank you very much. The motion carries." LOL! That's how they vote at Bellevue, too! No secret ballots, no call for "Nays," just "All in favor please stand. Thank you. The motion carries." Robert must be spinning in his grave. They know most of the sheeple aren't going to rock the boat though, and by having a standing vote, peer pressure alone and the desire not to stand out will bring people to their feet for anything. Every time they successfully ram through something like this they only become more emboldened. Kudos to the people who had the courage to sit last night! Rest assured your names were noted, and you may soon be called to appear before the discipline committee, too.
What I cannot get over is Jim Whitmire's going along with all this. His story about the shepherd leaving the "ninety and nine" sheep and going after the one who was lost was quite ironic given the fact FBC Jax's shepherd and his shepherd boys had just figuratively shoved one of their sheep off the cliff. How can Jim stand at Mac Brunson's side, even call him the finest preacher he's ever heard (for a man who sat under Adrian Rogers for over 30 years, that's laughable), and go along with all this? Zipping up the bubble and insulating yourself doesn't cut it because by your silence and your remaining there and standing at Mac's side, you ARE tacitly going along with all of it. You would think after his deplorable treatment at the hands of Steve Gaines and Bellevue that Jim Whitmire, of all people, would see Mac Brunson for the abusive charlatan he is. Is an attractive salary and a bayfront condo really worth it?
Speaking of Mac, I noticed he was conspicuously absent last night. So typical. He lets other people do his dirty work.
Regardless of the fact last night's meeting was a total sham, one thing I noticed was you apparently still have monthly business meetings. Bellevue's bylaws (written in 1929, they're half a page long and have never been changed) also call for monthly business meetings, but hey, bylaws schmylaws, we don't care! All they have now is an annual business meeting on a Sunday morning at the conclusion of a very long worship service. Last year over half the people walked out before it started. In 2007 they killed the mics and shut down the meeting when people were still lined up to speak. Last year only two people had the courage to ask questions, and both were quickly dismissed.
Here is Steve Gaines at another church describing an "information meeting" at Bellevue the night before. A little over halfway in he says, "We sat everybody down. Said, 'This is not a business meeting. It's an information meeting.' What that meant is, 'We're gonna talk.' Heh heh heh. 'But you're not.' Heh heh heh heh heh. Heh heh heh ha ha. I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck, amen?! Aha ha ha heh heh. I've been around this for a long time. Amen!" Does this remind you of anyone? Hint: "Shut 'em down!"
Last night was an absolutely disgusting display of deplorable (but not surprising) behavior by men who've lost their consciences. While I was watching it my first thought was I wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near Mr. Soud because there just might be a lightning bolt with his name on it. From the way his eyes were darting around while he was reading, I wondered if that thought hadn't crossed his mind as well.
You all need to flee that place! God has most assuredly left the building...".CLOSE QUOTE!!!!
February 26, 2009 12:05
Mr.PENNINGTON....There is certainly nothing funny about what YOUR pastor is doing to this once great Church....Mr.PENNINGTON..
Again, I will not declare that God has left the building. There are many wonderful, godly servants at that church. God HAS NOT left FBC Jax no matter what the leaders and lay leaders have done.
As far as it pertains to the action last night, the men that were behind this, at least some of them, don't have the full story else there is no way they would have gone along unanimously with it. They perhaps have been told to not read the blog, but have been told that it is lies, slander, and innuendo by a bitter, angry, jealous man. This is balderdash.
The good people of FBC Jax were taught to trust the pastor and lay leaders in all business matters, and that strategy served us well for many decades. Its not serving us well now, as we can all see.
QUOTE..."The GOOD people of FBC Jax were taught to trust the pastor and lay leaders in all business matters, and that strategy served us well for many decades. Its not serving us well now, as we can all see."..Close Quote...Parts of the body are well and GOOD Dr.Dog ;;IT'S THE HEAD THATS THE PROBLEM!..IF THE HEAD IS DEFECTIVE THEN EVENTUALLY THE BODY WILL BECOME DEFECTIVE..
It is written,
Thank you for reposting my comment from the previous thread. I thought I was on the current thread when I posted it, and I wondered why so few people were commenting!
Here are the two sentences that had links:
We've seen it with Steve Gaines and Paige Patterson. These guys are veteran public speakers, and when they're comfortable and being truthful they're smooth as silk, but when they're not they fall apart.
Here is Steve Gaines at another church describing an "information meeting" at Bellevue the night before. A little over halfway in he says, "We sat everybody down. Said, 'This is not a business meeting. It's an information meeting.' What that meant is, 'We're gonna talk.' Heh heh heh. 'But you're not.' Heh heh heh heh heh. Heh heh heh ha ha. I didn't just fall off the cabbage truck, amen?! Aha ha ha heh heh. I've been around this for a long time. Amen!" Does this remind you of anyone? Hint: "Shut 'em down!"
Something else that jumped out at me was that the trustees approved this thing on February 18th. According to the e-mails Watchdog posted on Monday, the accused man was still corresponding with John Blount two days after February 18th, trying to work out arrangements so he could speak to the deacons and defend himself against what he claims are false and baseless allegations. So it's obvious to me they'd already made up their minds and had no intention of meeting with him or letting him defend himself. This thing had been written, signed, sealed, and in the bag and was ready to be delivered to the deacons while Blount was still telling the man he could address the deacon body.
Oops! Busted!!! These guys are like criminals. Sometimes they can be quite clever, but they're never very bright.
Also, why did they not mention the accused man's name? Fear of getting their collective pants sued off?
It is Written:
"...When He [Jesus] saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd."
Jesus I'm sure is looking at FBC Jax, the many faithful members who do love Jesus and want to serve Jesus in FBC Jax...and he is saddened. Jesus I'm sure was sad as a motion like that was made in our church, and sad that there was not a loving, humble shepherd there to help them understand and make sense of it.
No matter what one thinks of the WD or the motion made last night, that is arguably one of the low points of our church in recent years, and our "shepherd", Mac Brunson, was no where in sight. Perhaps he wants to keep his hands clean, and let these men do the dirty work. Yes, he had a speaking engagement in Dallas that prevented him from being there, but wouldn't a shepherd want an act like that to take place in his presence? Many sheep left confused and dazed at what happened. Good leadership is front and center during difficult and controversial situations.
The sheep need a shepherd.
anon 1:57
I starting coming to this blog in order to offer contrasting viewpoints and to be a Dr. Brunson supporter amidst all of the unwarranted complaints. Yes, that's right, unwarranted. So much of what is griped about here comes as a result, not of genuine concern and trusting God, but of looking around instead of up. Perhaps people wish change never happened, that things were exactly like they were in the past. For example, I actually miss using the hymnals and have regret for the HS dept. that they don't go on ski trips anymore. However, I can see the reasons for these things. I just don't see (and I see fine thanks) any valid justification for ranting on and on about things like anger in the pulpit (BTW, Dr. Lindsay used to sound angry quite often), starting a school (good endeavor), starting a satellite campus (even better endeavor--fast growing area,people may not want to drive long distance to downtown),a land gift (would anybody here have honestly turned it down? Huh,c'mon are you sure?), and that history and greek word origins shouldn't be part of the sermons (wrong--I learn so much and see the connections with the Scripture). I could go on, but I'll probably be chastised here enough from that answer, so I'll stop. Oh, I found out about this blog when I saw my wife looking at it. She heard about it from somebody at church. I thank God for FBC, Dr. Brunson, his family, and his passion for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and his genuine concern for the spiritual well-being of his congregation!
Mark - you miss the point about the land gift.
WHO would ever be offered a $300,000 piece of land by someone they don't know?
I don't know of anyone who ever said they went to go to a new job, and lo and behold a guy they never met before offered them a gift worth $300,000. So get real there.
And I would say 99.9% of the people I know that work for a company (i.e. that are not self employed) would MOST CERTAINLY turn down a $300,000 gift from a vendor, donor, customer of the company. And the people I know...if they worked for a non-profit organization would certainly not accept a $300,000 land gift from a donor to the organization, especially if they wre already being handsomely compensated by that organization.
I know in your zeal to defend Mac you gloss over the land gift, but you really need to open your eyes on that one.
Its indefensible for a new pastor to come to town and immediately accept a gift worth $300,000 from one of the donors to the church.
Prov 22:16
it is written,
You are right, for once I can agree with you. There is nothing funny about what MY pastor is doing at FBC. He is earnestly engaged in very serious work; God's work! The work of leading a large church during an extremely corrupt and sinful age and trying to get people in gear and moving and helping him spread the gospel.
FBC is still a great church! It is satan himself that wants to hinder its growth and effectiveness by causing people to be distracted and perhaps complacent and not having a burden for lost people. I do thank you for your very evident concern for us and appreciate your prayers!
New BBC: "Also, why did they not mention the accused man's name?"
They probably realized they targeted the wrong guy.
"Good leadership is front and center during difficult and controversial situations."....Key word "GOOD"And therein lies the problem!!
Appears that individual feedom of expression is to be done away with on the internet via telephone, via E mail, via any conversation unless it passes the censor. What a mess this is going to be. And what doctrines were incorrect according to who? Chapter and verse please. Do these men really think they can control conversations? Freedom of Speech,boys, Freedom of Speech. What kind of freedom is this. This church is getting closer to a CULT everyday. And Watchdog enough "gushing " over these yes men. These are the same guys who want to serve trespass papers on people that have any problem with this church. For the record I personally don't blame ALL staff of FBC. Some are just trying to hold on to a job in a bad economy. But as we know most of the "trustees" don't have money problems.
QUOTE..."You are right, for once I can agree with you. There is nothing funny about what MY pastor is doing at FBC. He is earnestly engaged in very serious work; God's work!"......For once I agree with you "Mr.Pennington" it isn't funny...Slandering people,holding ecumenical meeting,speaking abusively and condescendingly to people,living a lavish lifestyle at parishioners expense,allowing inquisition on suspected(but not proven)members,selling advertising during worship services,commandeering building space for him and his mongrels,introducing PD,condemning those who are free too tithe,bad mouthing his church to others,making sure he gets his money while many long time employee's of FBC get no raise,etc,etc,etc "WHEWWWWW" I'm out of breath...You're absolutely right "Mr.Pennington IT ISN'T THE LEAST BIT FUNNY!!!!
It is written, and all the rest of you unhappy people come on and join our great downtown church @ Shiloh. You will not be disappointed. However, please do not bring your negative spirit with you and leave it at the door of that other downtown church. Our door is always open and the new pastor is great. I am sure that all of you can fit in.
It is written, you speak with a forked tongue. One place you act like you do not go to FBC and in other places you directly contradict yourself and say you do. WHICH IS IT? I suggest that you get rid of all this negativity and come down to Shiloh. You will love it. But I am sure that if you look hard enough you will find fault with our pastor also. Anyway, stop being confused and worship with us this sunday.
Anon 4:05,
Is that the same Shiloh where Darrell Gilyard was?
Mark,
Appreciate you pointing that witnessing topics are brought up.. Let me see is that the same Starbucks person Smyrl referenced over the past 3 yrs?
Apparently you have been dissentizied by the rhetoric that we have been subjected to.
Thanks!
Anon 4:05pm
Great point, but your forgot something, BRING YOUR CHECKBOOK.
Mr Pennington
You seem to be a loyal Christian. In that you are new to this blog you might not be aware of many of the problems with Mac Brunson. Don't be to quick to condemn those who appose your pastor. Read over the previous issues. You may find that Mac Brunson is not the preacher that you think him to be. You will see that Watchdog is all about FACTS. He and all of us are deeply concerned about the well being of your church members, your church, you, and your pastor. Far above that, we are concerned that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is only, on occasion, being preached at your church. It has been observed for years now that Mac is more concerned with growing the church than he is in saving souls by preaching the Gospel. Many who post here are praying for your church.
it is written:
All of the same allegations, over and over again, yes, I'm sure you are out of breath! Why not take a break and focus on the big picture and put less spotlight on these oft-repeated and disputed issues. Do you sincerely think that matters like land gifts, office space, salary, etc. are of great value in terms of eternity and the role that Christians have in fulfilling the Great Commission? Now that's a topic worth discussing since we are far more obligated to show people the way to Heaven than to worry about day to day church operations and the differences we have with our Pastor and his decisions. Before you accuse Dr. Brunson of not placing emphasis on the gospel, as you or somebody else surely will, let me say with definite knowledge that he does preach the gospel, he does preach the gospel, he does preach the gospel!! Why do people miss that in his preaching? It is so evident all the time and he frequently refers to examples of people that he has witnessed to. So, not only does Dr. Brunson accurately preach the truth in love and in humiliation and in awe of the power of God, he leads by example!
anon 5:01,
Actually, I'm not really new to this blog, I just haven't participated much lately. I found it a few months ago I believe and I have read a whole of the content and know that it's the same stuff going 'round and 'round. By the way, I have not condemned anybody. Thank you for praying for us! God is good and He is faithful to us and will guide us and give us wisdom when we humble ourselves and submit to Him!
Why do people on this blog seem to continue harping on the "Shut 'em down!" phrase?
Unless there is more to the story there, it seems to have been taken out of context.
Dr. Brunson's quote there was related to people who steal your joy in your Christian walk. I have, at MANY times (too frequently, lately) had to deal with people that Satan used to make me sad, angry, hurt, depressed, etc. I have finally reached the point in my walk with God where I am recognizing that and am starting to give these people the reaction they deserve... the reaction that Dr. Brunson states in that video clip.
I did not get the idea that he was referring to this blog and if you are taking it to mean this from THAT clip, you are really stretching it.
Anon Shilite you must be new to this blog..I'am not a member of FBC Jax;But I'm quite aware of Shiloh's past...You too ignored consant warnings about Darrell Gilyards misconduct and your leaders chose to do absolutely nothing until the state of Florida forced your hand..I agree with you that you now have a great young man in HB whom I have met personally and I wish Shiloh and and HB nothing but the best...Also I have many good friends at Shiloh and often I visit...God bless you..
Anon 5:42
the reason that this "shut em down" phrase is being mentioned so often is because this is the agenda that Mac is using now days.
In the Purpose driven transition of a church there are several steps to go through. The step that we are in now is the DEAL WITH THOSE WHO APPOSE THE CONVERSION FROM A TRADITIONAL CHURCH TO A PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH.
Mac is well into this phase. If there wasn't a Watchdog he would have picked out other resistors. The idea is to get rid of every one who will not go along with ANYTHING that the pastor does. ANYTHING! Get rid of them!
The old people will go first they hate change and after all they are usually the PILLARS of the church. Rick Warren say " you know what PILLARS ARE, THEY JUST HOLD THINGS UP. Meaning they will hold up the transition.
Then will go the grounded Christian. The ones who know that the pastor is to preach the Gospel and Doctrine. In the PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH you will not here much gospel and very little doctrine. After all you don't want to scare away the UNCHURCHED.
Finally you have to get rid of the the LEADERS OF THE CHURCH. They may be convicted of there sin of following the pastor who has lied to them and the members.
What you have left is the YES MEN.
For now Mac has to eliminate all resistors. PUT THE FEAR IN THEM.
Mr. Pennington,
If you happen to do something that displeases the pastor, would you like for your sweet wife to receive a "trespass" warning and exactly what would you say to your children? Sorry, Mommy can't watch you sing tonight, due to something I did that displeased the pastor. Also, WD's precious wife SAT IN HER CAR!!! while waiting for her children to get out of church. She was FORBIDDEN to even come into the church, although she herself had done nothing wrong (except for being married to someone who displeased the pastor). I believe the way the money is spent at our church should be made public. Especially, the salaries. Other churches make that common knowledge.
Here's another thought: When we stand before God in judgment, He is not going to say: Hey, go get his wife. She's in on this too. We will all face God as individuals. So, what makes Dr. Brunson and his team think they are doing God's will by punishing the wife too? If they run into WD's wife in public, will they extend a hand of friendship or will they condemn her in public. How does that show Christian love? How does that win souls to Christ? What does that say to the lost world?
You may not agree with WD but if you stand with Dr. Brunson on this, you are agreeing to what he did to an innocent woman and her children.
AND, let's not leave out Maurilio's twitters. They are soooo disgusting. How can Dr. Brunson justify aligning himself with a creep like Maurilio?
Explain that one to me, Mr. Pennington!
I am in full agreement with you Mr Pennington - your thoughts, comments and logic. Please continue to be a voice of reason for the church, pastor, staff and people supporting the other side of their story. Seems that the only thing most want to hear is their own slant on the story. Ironic how the very reason the blog was started is they want to be heard and now they do not want opposing views voiced (as evidenced by various attacks on you).
One additional point, most churches provide a parsonage for their pastor. We do not do that. Thus, if some member feels the urge to give the pastor a piece of land then I sure am glad someone has been blessed enough financially to do so. The pastor did not know his salary or any gifts that might come his way before he accepted the call as MY pastor.
May I offer some observations from 30 years of corporate experience and growing up at FBC and very close association with Dr Lindsay Sr and Jr...very close.
First and what I think is most relavent is the close correlation between Mc Donald and what corporate raiders typically do. I have been in (4) Forune 500 companies that went through essentially what FBC Jax has experienced. Since HGL Sr began until Vines left, you had smooth transitions. When Mc Donald came in, he began the process to make FBC after his image. Get rid of proven but not loyal staff (Barton, Pigg etc..), bring in team (loyal) players and start isolating the non-conformers. Continue to enforce CHANGE (see Obama).
Corporately, (2) of the companies I worked for (that were over 100 years old) went downhill after the "change" and both are no longer in business. Company #3 has changed ownership (4) times since the "takeover" and is now an irrelevant shell of it's former self and company #4 is (barely) limping along.
I predict that the same thing will happen to FBC Jax. McDonald will continue to bring change, destroy the heritage and culture that was FBC Jax and then like the aliens in the movie Independence Day, when he has sucked all the resources, move on leaving FBC Jax a shell of it's former self and irrelevant in Jacksonville.
Call me whatever but the parallels are there for all who will see them. Read what McDonald did in Dallas, he started a $40+ Million building program and left the church $10M in the red. He moved on when a better deal came along. Same thing the corporate raider does.
Be aware, be very aware.
"As far as it pertains to the action last night, the men that were behind this, at least some of them, don't have the full story else there is no way they would have gone along unanimously with it. They perhaps have been told to not read the blog, but have been told that it is lies, slander, and innuendo by a bitter, angry, jealous man. This is balderdash."
Yes, it is, but there's no excuse for these men not looking at the "evidence" for themselves. If they're so wishy washy that they won't read something simply because someone told them not to... they should not be in any leadership position. Good grief. Just stick your head in the sand.
Yes, like Obama is YOUR president, McDonald is YOUR pastor. Stiffle dissent and marginalize opposition, just like Saul Alinsky preached. McDonald is taking a page out of the master community dis-organizers playbook.
I challenge all you defenders to read Alinsky's book..."Rules for Radicals". There are parallels....
"One of the reasons we (I at least) respected Bush so much is how he handled the intense criticism and hatred he faced for 8 years. He never used his position of power to strike back at his detractors. He didn't send out his close allies to issue edicts to silence those criticizing him. He stuck his nose to the wheel, did his task, and get this: Bush had faith in God that he would take care of the detractors Himself, if Bush just did every day what he felt God had called him to do. Oh that our church leaders could learn that lesson from President George W. Bush."
THAT is because Bush is a Methodist - NOT a Southern Baptist. Ya seein' the difference here?
About the "Shut 'em Down" comment of Mac.
I never said he was referring directly to the blog, but that he was saying to shut down complainers in the church
His comments leading up to that were all about people taking the tiny, miniscule, microscopic, insignifcant things in church and blowing them up into something so that people can complain, so they can have a reason to not go to Sunday School...then, get this, he says people will find something about the preacher they don't like so they can avoid tithing.
Then he goes into his list of 7 reasons why "killjoys" do this (find reasons to complain about "little" things in church)...not based on scripture by the way...then gives a Chuck Swindoll quote to tie complaining to stealing joy, and then his famous "Shut 'em down" quote.
So he gives 5 minutes of theatrics about blowing the little things up to complain, 7 reasons why people do this, a Chuck Swindoll quote, and then "shut em down."
Beyond all of that, his statement that if people come to you and try to steal your joy, shut 'em down, that is not based on any scripture, its not even a Christian thing to do. Did Jesus "shut people down?" Are we commanded to shut people down? Or are we to love them? Besides, who can steal our "joy"? What pastor tells people to shut other people down, followed by a pregnant pause and no explanation of what that means? An abusive pastor, that's who. Homer never, ever did that Mark, so don't give me the nonsense you did earlier that Homer was angry too sometimes.
It was Mac's way of saying, those who complain in the church, who make a big deal of what he thinks are little things, we need to shut them down.
I'm sorry to have to explain this to you Mark, but I tried to give you the video so you could see again what he did that night.
Part of the problem with Mac's sermons, and that was painfully obvious this past Sunday, is that we get more of "the world according to Mac" and less of a scripture based sermon.
Is that "harmful opinion"? Will the discipline committee be coming to shut me down?
Thank you very much Mr.Hardwich for that very enlightening and absolutely factual revelation...I for one agree with your assessment 1 trillion percent....
WD: It must really suck being you right now.
You've been exposed to the church. They know your name down there, and people NOW know you for who you are. You had us fooled.
You've also had A.C. Soud, Jr. read a condemning statement to the church, and official statement of the 20,000+ members at FBC Jax that was unanimously approved by the Trustees, then unanimously approved by the Deacons, and now nearly unanimously approved by the people of the church.
You brought this all on yourself and your family.
Or is everybody down there at that church wrong, and you're the only one that is right?
Who is the crazy one?
Anonymous 8:29:
In answer to your last question....look in the mirror.
Mr. Hardwick,
I was there at FBCD. The bldg. was actually $60+ MM. But who's counting...
McDonald - That's a great one.
And can we put the kabosh on the filthy Mourilo Twit. Good night, how does a 40+ man still talk, act and think like that?? Oh yeah, delayed adolescence syndrome...!
One more thing - Trey Brunson wrote the 8:29 post.
Anon 8:29
You MUST not have a clue sir. Yes-men ratified the indictment and a few hundred members (remember when there was 4-5K there on Wednesday night) were cohersed by peer pressure to stand up. Whatever happen "all in favor-yeah, all opposed-no". I think they were afraid of the dissenting voices and figured this was the best way to appear to have an unanimous vote. Saul Alinsky would be proud.
So dear sir, must suck to be one of you. Will suck to be one of the survivors at FBC Jax after McDonald has ran it into the ground. Perhaps you or Mrs Pennington can figure out how to turn off the lights.
Anon 8:29pm...Ever READ of the MANY on the wide road to perdition?...Ever READ that MANY are called but few are chosen?...Ever READ that Jesus stated that the MANY would be lead astray by religious decievers?..Ever READ where only 3 people survived Sodom and Gomorah?..Ever READ where only 8 people survived the flood?....Just because there's a crowd means absolutely "NOTHING"..And you my friend have proven again that the Bible is always correct!!!!
Here, here.....it is written.
Spoken like a true Baptist (no offense my like minded friend. I agree 100%.
Thank you Mr.Hardwick you are to be admired for your stand and insight...Thanks again....
Have you noticed the very small crowds on Wed. nights? Do you think it might be because some think they may have to VOTE on something? They might be required to take a public stand (or not). This was apparent last night. I don't for one minute believe the "Church" agrees with these actions taken, but they don't want to expose themselves to ridicule or be labeld as dissenters. I seriously doubt there was a quorum present.
correction:
the last part of my 5:14 statement should have been....the truth in love and humility....oops,the consequence of rushing.
To anon 7:21
Good point, I have to agree with you; Maurilio's twitters are weird and shallow, based on the few that I have seen.
S. Harwick at 8:45pm
Do you not recall the days of Dr Lindsay, Jr saying "All in favor say I" (pause) I (pause) "That sounds like all of us. Motion so carried"?
Anon - I'll chime in...sure, Vines and Lindsay did this regularly for very routine issues.
But come on. We just had perhaps an UNPRECEDENTED motion read in our church. It took 7 minutes. He stated facts about a former member, some of which were outright lies (unlike Mac's supporters who claim "lies and slander" yet never say what here are "lies" and "slander - I'll tell you exactly what the lies were, and won't just call him a liar but will SHOW what the lies are, stay tuned)...and then he stated that they would aggressively confront dissenters. Unprecedented.
That requires a SERIOUS vote.
Allow for an Aye
Allow for a Nay.
But it is cowardice, to read a "Whereas this" and "Whereas that" for 8 minutes, and then not take a SERIOUS vote of Aye or Nay. These men took the cowardly way out. And it showed a disrespect for the people there, causing them to stand, meaning that a person could not abstain.
And how embarrassing is it that these SAME GUYS (some of them anyways) changed the bylaws in significant ways as I've chronicled on this blog, and they did NOT read them to the congregation, the did NOT put them on the Image-Mags, and did NOT read a summary of them....but for this motion, by golly A.C. Soud wanted us stupid sheep to hear him read it, and by golly he wanted us to read it along with him. He wants you all to clearly understand that they will not tolerate public dissent in any form.
Are you shook up enough? GOOD!
Did I just say that? You better believe I did.
Why did these guys do this? Just eight years after Homer Linday died, and these guys do this. If Homer were alive, he'd want to know why. (sound familiar?)
I'm not shook up at all but it sure seems that you are.
Also, Dr. Lindsay and Dr. Vines would do the voting that way on important things too.
anon 11:22 and the rest,
Not sure what you mean but every vote I or my family ever witnessed (since 1949), and there were some important votes like building buildings, buying property etc...were done with a voice aye-nay. NEVER in all those years was one conducted like this sham and ACS knows it. That legalese-indictment was probably written by him and a group of the other elite lawyers that are now running the show. They are running our gov-ment and now they have taken over our church.
If I didn't know better, I would swear that there had been an invasion of the Body Snatchers and that wasn't the real ACS or any of those other long time members agreeing to this Alinsky style takeover of the once great First Baptist Church of Jacksonville Florida.
Will the last one out, please turn off the lights?
To It is Written.
How could you even comment on Dr. Whitmire when the Bellevue "elite" sat on their pompous asses and let a man of God like him be treated the way they did,
SHAME ON THEM. BBC deserves what they got, and so does Watchdog! I just pity the man's family and what he has put them through.
As far as Mr. Soud, another great man of God. No I don't attend FBC but know him to be the same in the church as in the public. A Christian gentleman!
To It is Written.
How could you even comment on Dr. Whitmire when the Bellevue "elite" sat on their pompous asses and let a man of God like him be treated the way they did,
SHAME ON THEM. BBC deserves what they got, and so does Watchdog! I just pity the man's family and what he has put them through.
As far as Mr. Soud, another great man of God. No I don't attend FBC but know him to be the same in the church as in the public. A Christian gentleman!
EFF: Bloggers' Rights
If you're a blogger, this page is for you.
One of EFF's goals is to give you a basic roadmap to the legal issues you may confront as a blogger, to let you know you have rights, and to encourage you to blog freely with the knowledge that your legitimate speech is protected.
To that end, we have created the Legal Guide for Bloggers, a collection of blogger-specific FAQs addressing everything from fair use to defamation law to workplace whistle-blowing.
In addition, EFF continues to battle for bloggers' rights in the courtroom:
Bloggers can be journalists (and journalists can be bloggers). We're battling for legal and institutional recognition that if you engage in journalism, you're a journalist, with all of the attendant rights, privileges, and protections. (See Apple v. Does.)
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Bloggers have the right to political speech. We're working with a number of other public-interest organizations to ensure that the Federal Election Commission (FEC) doesn't gag bloggers' election-related speech. We argue that the FEC should adopt a presumption against the regulation of election-related speech by individuals on the Internet, and interpret the existing media exemption to apply to online media outlets that provide news reporting and commentary regarding an election -- including blogs. (See our joint comments to the FEC [PDF, 332K].)
Bloggers have the right to stay anonymous. We're continuing our battle to protect and preserve your constitutional right to anonymous speech online, including providing a guide to help you with strategies for keeping your identity private when you blog. (See How to Blog Safely (About Work or Anything Else).)
Bloggers have freedom from liability for hosting speech the same way other web hosts do. We're working to strengthen Section 230 liability protections under the Communications Decency Act (CDA) while spreading the word that bloggers are entitled to them. (See Barrett v. Rosenthal.)
I would encourage WD and WD's supporters to spread the word. Let the world know what is happening here.
Anon 8:42am..That was not my comment but one from BBC OPEN FORUM from a previous entry...I have nothing personally against Mr.Whitmire or Mr.Soud except that they are allowing McDonald to ruin FBC Jax....
Wade Burleson said...
Thy Peace,
I am contemplating a post about FBC Jacksonville. I have it half written, butI will not publish it until I personally call Pastor Mack and his wife Debbie, because it involves them both.
One of these days leaders will become smart and recognize that the most effective way to deal with anonymous attacks is to IGNORE them.
If and when I write about my experiences with the Brunsons, it will not be anonymous.
Blessings,
Wade
Fri Feb 27, 10:59:00 AM 2009
"Great spirits have always encountered voilent opposition from mediocre minds" Albert Einstein..
I consider this blog to be a great spirit. I will let everyone else determine who the mediocre minds are.
Thy Peace,
You are advocating more blogs be created. Do you follow your own advice and have one?
Otherwise, shut up.
Watch Dog,
I have read with interest this blog for some weeks. Since it is a public blog, I feel compelled to respond to you in a public way. Normally it would be personal and private. I notice you moderate comments, so you might censor me, and not even allow this to be posted. If you so choose, that is OK, the comments are mainly directed to you personally.
I expect I am like many readers of the blog who felt like you had some valid points to make. Especially, I was so disappointed, chagrined, and flabbergasted about the trespass warnings to the alleged owners of the blog. Then, the denial of opportunity for his wife or anyone to accompany him to the “tribunal” was so unfair and UNBIBLICAL. (If the onwer of the blog is not you, would you have had the guts to support him publicly?)At least some principles from the dissension and dispute in Acts 15 could have been followed by the JAX church leadership.
However, I feel like another who has posted on this thread, that you keep churning and churning the same issues in repeated entries. You were asked clearly and directly by that same person posting, if you yourself ever went personally and privately to Mac Brunson. In your response you huffed and puffed about the same old issues, but avoided answering the question that I put to you again … DID YOU … WOULD YOU … GO TO MAC BRUNSON PERSONALLY AND PRIVATELY???
The biblical model throughout the scriptures is confrontation, personal and direct. Pharaoh confronted Abram (Genesis 12:14-20). Jesus not only confronted teachers of the law and Pharisees (Matthew 23:13-36), but also one of his own disciples, calling Peter an agent of Satan (16:23). Later Paul confronted Peter when the latter stepped back from open fellowship with Christian Gentiles (Galatians2:11-14).
I believe you have some Show Dog in you! I am suspicious of anyone who seems to publically enjoy deriding and criticizing others. I think it is possible in such cases the motivation is revenge rather than helpfulness.
I think you might be a passive-aggressive personality (and perhaps more than a tad obsessive-compulsive). You seem to live in the past, and will not leave your traditions, that you think are so holy. Hmmm … that is a whole ‘nother story!
By your continued anonymity, it is YOU who is the COWARD. Why are you so afraid to confront the “rich and powerful” directly? Are you intimidated by a lack of education or perceived inferiority? Do you not have enough guts and confidence to confront someone face to face, man to man? You will see my face and story is available in my profile if you click on it.
The prophet Nathan knew what it was like to confront a leader with power to have him executed. King David was “a man after the heart of God” (1 Samuel 13:14). David had showed restraint, maturity, and respect when he refused to harm Saul (1 Samuel 24:1-7). Yet David could be impetuous and insensitive (2 Samuel 6:12-22). David even practiced deception and making his own rules when doing so served his purpose (1 Samuel 21:1-6). Even so, David could be a man of great devotion (2 Samuel 7:18-29). I expect you well know that among the horrible sins of David were adultery and murder.
Nevertheless, Nathan had the courage to confront King David face to face. Nathan told a very creative story to David (with your wit you could do the same with Mac). Upon hearing the story David was furious with anger. He wanted the guilty party in the story to suffer the consequences…death! (If Mac is feeling guilt for the charges you make against him, maybe that is why he seems so angry in the pulpit.)
Dear brother in Christ, get off your tail and get your rear in gear. Contact Mac. Can you HUMBLY ask for a meeting with him? Stop re-telling your story over and over to the world. Go to the person, Mac, who can make a difference. There is still opportunity for reconciliation, repentance, and renewal … for EVERYONE involved!
My motivation is for wholeness and healing in the body of Christ. I have never attended FBC JAX, but I love you and Mac with the love of the Lord.
Hi Phill - thanks for your pscyho-analysis, and application of "coward" label (in caps) to me. I've been called much worse for this blog, so I'll wear your label of "COWARD" proudly.
Blessings to you Phil. I mean Phill.
Thy Peace: Thank you for this info. You have been helpful many times in many areas.
Gentlemen Trustees:
You would think that lawyers would be the first to fight for Freedom of Speech. But in this case the "client" wants the "speech" stopped. I could not in good conscience take that position. Guess that is what "wars" are fought over. FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!!!! What is so ironic is....Churches are the first ones to scream Freedom of Speech. Wait until the time comes when FBC has to fight for IT'S FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Wait until something like the Fairness Doctrine, or the liberal press, or some other Non-Christian group starts "shutting down" the churches. Wait until the microphones are turned off and TV broadcast,and even witnessing is prohibited. You think this won't happen? Just wait. We Christians are under attack everyday. Then these same "lawyers" that are passing out tresspass papers (also a loss of freedom. The same lawyers passing "Resolutions" curtailing Freedom of Speech in their Church, threatening anyone who opposes the current occupier of the pulpit. Wait until THEIR Freedoms are threatened. Then they will have set their own precedent. They will have established how to "shut down" Christians. Your own methods will be used against you. To say in the Resolution that one will be dealt with "agressively" by deacons and others if dissenters voice any opposition to "goings on" at FBCJ, and then in the next breath to say that "This Resolution is not meant to prohibit Freedom of Speech", is an oxymoron designed to "cover the tracks" so to speak. I never thought I would see members of this church stage a "witch-hunt" on it's own people and try to couch it in RIGHTEOUSNESS. Shame on you gentlemen, shame!!! I think you have aligned yourself with the wrong cause. But, you're in it now. You're bringing down your own church!!! You can't legislate silence through intimidation. That's why the Pilgrims left England and came to America. The problem will be once YOUR preacher has left this church, you will be left here with very hard feelings among some members. I think you have tainted your reputations and FOR WHAT. You know Dr. Lindsay would NOT approve of you guys. It appears that you are following a man. I think there is a great deal of "ego" here. I see men trying to be "important", but having the opposite affect on a considerable number of their fellow members. It is possible, that an "elitest" position will not be of much value once you have lost the "good will" of those whom you have dissappointed.
S. Hardwick,
I just wanted to make a comment on behalf of the people who were ready for a change when Dr. Vines announced that he was leaving.
There was a very vocal (core) group at the church who seemed to be quite glad that FBCJ would have a chance to renew itself.
This group of people believed that Dr. Vines had slowly let other people in the church take over the running of the church to the its detriment.
The church was encouraging people who were called to full time ministry to go and get their seminary degree before serving. However, the church seldom hired anyone who had a seminary degree.
Many of the decisions made by staff members were considered questionable (at the least) by this group of people.
These members were very pleased to have Dr. Brunson come because they hoped that there would be some major changes in the staff at the church.
Some of the people you mention as being "proven" really needed to go. Their "proven" methods had not been proving to be positive for some time. They refused to change and refused to listen to advice from people who knew better.
This "group" at FBCJ was very upset when Dr. Brunson came because he did NOT make these changes QUICKLY enough for their tastes.
This, by the way, is the same group that is COMPLETELY caught up in this blog and following closely what happens.
Just remember... you may not like it now, but don't paint a picture of life as completely rosy before Dr. Brunson came.
To others who are head over heels in love with this blog:
As for MY opinion on the matter? I think there are some people who are going to find fault with anyone and anything. If you look hard enough, you can find something about which to complain.
I think that Dr. Brunson has done a lot of good for FBCJ, but if you continue to focus on the negative, you'll never see it.
Can you imagine if we treated our spouse this way? I doubt our relationship with them would ever improve if we NEVER mentioned the positive and pulled the negative out of everything. You may point out that we are not discussing a husband and wife... we are discussing a pastor and his church. I agree. There is a difference. But I wanted to point out that the things about which we focus tend to skew our viewpoints of the individual. The more we focus on the negative, the less we SEE the positive (that IS there).
I'm not looking at Dr. Brunson with rose colored glasses. I see that he has some faults. I am particularly upset with the way FBCJ has handled the "discipline" of this former member.
I just think that if you are going to accomplish anything positive, you must look at the whole picture... the good AND the bad. You must be willing to question the bad and applaud the good.
Whenever I have been given the task of judging someone, I have noticed that criticism is much more willingly accepted if it is sprinkled with praise. No one wants to listen to someone who gripes all the time.
If you have not been able to see any good in this man for some time, you should have moved your letter long ago.
If you want to send a message to Dr. Brunson, how about a mass exodus? I think that you would be happier and the church may be better off.
To Mr. Ellington:
Stated beautifully.
Dear PHILL thanks,but NO THANKS for your psycho-babble-christianity(I hate the attempt at mixing psychology with Biblical Truth)Your so-called advice reeks with supposed intellectual arrogance;;E-mail Mac Brunson with this same ADVICE!!!!
A few links discussing the FBC Jax Anti-Criticism Doctrine:
FBC Jax has published the "Anti-Criticism Doctrine" on their website:
http://fbcjax.com/resolution
New BBC Open Forum chimes in:
Biblical Pattern for Church Discipline?
Anon 1:35
I can appreciate your words and thoughts.
I had heard rumblings of issues with Dr Vines and I agree, all was not rosy. There was change needed. For one thing, Mrs. Vines was/is a little bit "different", not very social and for that I hear good things about McDebbie. Seems things started going downhill after HGL Jr passed.
While Doug P has always been a bit odd, Bob Barton and Calvin Carr are the real deal.
Now, for me it is the controlling atmosphere that permeates the McDonald cabal.
Senior High Sunday School classes have been basically eliminated and dedicated teachers have been relegated to meer table monitors while "team" teachers do all the teaching. In the counseling area, counselors that had done this thankless job and had done it for years are all of a sudden not capable of counseling a younger person. A "trustee" is now posted to make sure no counselors breaks any of the new directives. I could go on but the contolling nature of these folks is what bothers me and this is exemplified by the offical reaction to the watchdog.
Yeah, change was needed but the new gestapo tactics are not what some had in mind.
Yet another anon wrote:
"How could you even comment on Dr. Whitmire when the Bellevue 'elite' sat on their pompous asses and let a man of God like him be treated the way they did,
SHAME ON THEM. BBC deserves what they got, and so does Watchdog! I just pity the man's family and what he has put them through."
Yes, I was the one who commented about Dr. Whitmire. You make a good point about the "elite" of BBC sitting back and letting it happen. I agree. I'm not part of the "elite" of BBC, so I have no voice. There was a grassroots effort early on to deal with the abuses of Steve Gaines, but half the leadership sat on their blessed assurances and went along with him, and the rest of the leadership either tucked their tails and shut their mouths or left, some by choice, others by force, so little was accomplished. I agree the "elite" got what they deserved in Steve Gaines. The sheeple did not, but those who remain there now remain there of their own accord.
Now, as for the second part of your statement, I'm not sure which "he" you mean put the accused and his family through this ordeal. If you're saying the Watchdog is responsible, then you're shooting the messenger. If you're saying Mac Brunson and/or the "elite" of FBC Jax are responsible, again you're right. When those in leadership won't stand up to the bullies, the people in the pews are the losers.
Anon. 1:35: Let me get this right. We have at FBC a longtime established church. We had great preachers that built it on the Word of God. We had great people that served in many capacities for MANY years. We have members that have been on the scene supporting this church in every way for YEARS. Then along comes this preacher. He abuses the flock with anger, hardly disguised, as disgust with the people. We are talked down to. He gets the "land deal". He is paid, we don't know how much. His wife and son are put on staff. Our long time associate pastors "move on". Wasn't he the one who said he hoped we didn't get a pay raise. Yet he was bold enough to high five Vines when Vines claims he has to be paid "big bucks" to be the preacher of a church. Then there are the endless trips, the do as I say but don't expect me to do anything I wrote in my book attitude. We also have the "christian love" shown toward those who dare to find any fault. I call it the "shut em down" people. Instead of true biblical restoration,we get trespass papers sent to members, resolutions stating we will be "aggressively confronted" by yes men deacons. The new church police. And on and on.....Now you say to long time members and others that are trying to stay in THEIR church and serve the Lord, "Why don't you MOVE YOUR MEMBERSHIP". Have you ever heard of the Lemon Law? We were sold a lemon. Notice I did not say we choose.....we were SOLD.
1:35 would you elaborate on who these clicks were. Vines had his own EGO problem. Doug Pigg had to play the mediator roll between Dr Lindsay and Dr Vines. We new all of this but who was this group that you say are now supporters of the Watchdog. Before I say this is a bunch of BS [Before Sanity], please elaborate. Thanks
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/jacksonville-fl/T1683PEF9RAB9DICT
Watchdogs blog site is now being talked about on Jacksonvilles blog site listed above
Mrs. 1:35
Look around mam. What do you see?
Sunday school split, those who do Small Groups and those who would not change. Is Soud's Sunday school class Small Group? No! I see that you have plowed around the old folks.
Is there any one department who has grown since Mac Brunson arrived? Name just one! Is the High School department about half the size it once was?
Has the Rock group been a success with the parents? No! They are not going to bring their kids down to that mess.
How many choir members like to memorize 10 songs a week instead of the 3-5 that they use to sing. Is this more entertainment than preparing the congregation for the message to follow? Yes!
How many people come to Wed and Sun night preaching? Not many! How many are in your church now? Thousands fewer? I know, the ones who are still there are the best of the best!
How many souls are being saved EVEN IF THE GOSPEL IS SELDOM PREACHED? Who knows? The Deacons do very little counseling compared to pre-Brunson. Maybe one quarter as much?
Yes mam, things are going great down there don't you just love it?
Before you answer those questions maybe you should LOOK OVER YOUR SHOULDER TO SEE IF THE DEACONS ARE LISTENING.
Seriously 1:35, it is obvious that FBCJ is in deep trouble. Your leadership is failing you. We are praying for you and your pastor. Trying to change a traditional church into a PURPOSE DRIVE, SEEKER SENSITIVE, PRAGMATIC, COMMUNITY LIKE CHURCH, does not always work. The real question is will Mac be wise enough and humble enough to admit this? Or, is it too late? Mac, we use to believe if something doesn't work go back to what did work. That still applies.
" Do you sincerely think that matters like land gifts, office space, salary, etc. are of great value in terms of eternity and the role that Christians have in fulfilling the Great Commission? "
Yes. Only the regenerate can effectively witness. The unregenerate 'market' their product and services as in 'come to our church'.
What you are saying is that it is perfectly ok to over look consistent willful sin. Have you not read 1 John all the way through. (pay attention to chapter 5) or perhaps Hebrews 10: 26-31.
YOur problem is that you dumb down sin thinking it is no big deal and can be overlooked because witnessing is more important. Problem is, you have no witness. Are you saying one can be in consistent willful sin and still be saved? Should they not examine their salvation with fear and trembling.
You also believe that because one goes to church and has a title of pastor or elder, that means they are saved. You could not be more wrong.
Matt
Ok, that video reminds me a little too much of the Rev. Jim Jones.
I think this whole thing shows that Mac is a wimpy little boy.
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