The motto of the 2009 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference was "Healthy Pastors, Healthy Churches".Good motto, actually. It says that to some degree, the spiritual health, the spiritual demeanor of the pastor will be reflected in the spiritual health and demeanor of the church and its members.
We saw this for years. A Pastor that loves Jesus, loves people, loves the Word, is thankful and loving and dedicated to the task - produces over time a church membership that also loves Jesus, loves peole, loves the Word and is incredibly dedicated to the task of the church.
Healthy Pastors, Healthy Churches.
Unfortunately, in our case, its "Angry Pastors, Angry Churches". This past Sunday night Mac was again in his sheep beating mode, going after what he calls "Kingdom Killjoys" who dare to raise issues of concern, who magnify insignificant concerns into reasons to complain.
Mac is very angry in the pulpit. People see it. Perhaps this blog has really taken its toll, and it shows most every sermon. Mac relentlesssly continues in his "the best defense is a good offense" posture...he will never, ever address any concerns his sheep have....but in most every sermon he preaches about slander and being attacked. This past Sunday night he compared the Pharisees who were out to kill Jesus and who denied Jesus' miracles, to those in the church who "magnify" the miniscule problems they see at church to have something to complain about. He calls them "Kingdom Killjoys".
Imagine that....people who express displeasure at something at church that the pastor doesn't care for, are branded by the pastor as legalists, Jesus-hating Pharisees. Wow. Now, do complainers exist in the church? Of course. But are they to be compared to the lost, legalistic, hell-bound Pharisees who sought to murder Jesus and denied Jesus' diety? In Mac's view, yes. Anybody in church that would dare question him, or his actions, is unworthy...they are lost...speak a word of complaint, you're a legalist. Ask a question or voice displeasure with Sunday School, you're a Pharisee. In Mac's world, at least.
Mac is a bully. He likes to intimidate and stomp around (see the video). Which is quite interesting, because despite his Pastor's Guidebook warning pastors to never use their pulpit as a "bully pulpit", he bullies most every week. Here is what Mac writes on page 186 of his book:
"It is unethical to use the pulpit to attack those who disagree with the way you are leading the church, even if you do not use their names. The president of the United States is said to have a 'bully pulpit'. The pastor should remember the imlications of servant leadership and refuse to become a bully in the pulpit." - Mac Brunson
In his "Kingdom Killjoy" sermon from Sunday night, Mac said that complainers in the church seek to rob the joy of other church members, and what is Mac's advice on how to handle "Kingdom Killjoys" in the church? Did he say "love them", or maybe "listen to them"? Did he say pray for them? Did he say to offer a kind word in return to them? No, none of that. Mac's only advice on how to treat "Kingdom Killjoys": three words: SHUT 'EM DOWN. Yes, Mac said just "SHUT 'EM DOWN", followed by a pregnant pause for effect. No explanation of how to SHUT 'EM DOWN...just presumably, anything that you have to do. Just be sure to SHUT 'EM DOWN. What does SHUT 'EM DOWN mean? Or was that his message to the discipline committee: shut down the watchdog, as he is a Kingdom Killjoy? I'll let you watch the clip below and decide for yourself.
Its sad really- people under his preaching are learning an angry side to Christianity. If people don't fall in line, if they are not pleased with Sunday School, if they have concerns about money being spent and they VOICE THOSE concerns...Mac's answer, and the answer he recommends to his "churchmen and church ladies"...is to SHUT EM DOWN. This also is the discipline process exacted on the couple accused of being the Watchdog: deliver a trespass warning and SHUT EM OUT. Don't go talk to them. SHUT EM OUT.
Let this be a warning to you parents considering sending your little ones to FBC Academy: don't think you've got an ear at FBC Jax if you need to complain about something at the school regarding your child. Don't like the meals served and dare to raise it as a concern? You're a "Kingdom Killjoy". Kids bullying your kid and you need to take it up with the administration: you're a Pharisaical Kingdom Killjoy who needs to be SHUT DOWN. The teacher isn't treating the students right and you'd like to bring it up with the principle or the pastor? Have a concern about the level of security? Maybe are concerned about one of the teachers? Don't be surprised if you get fingered as a Kingdom Killjoy by Mac and his lay leaders, and the church will mobilize its resources to shut you down. Heck, the preacher might even use you in a sermon illustration. You'll be labeled a "Kingdom Killjoy", and they'll need to SHUT YOU DOWN.
But this kind of attitude that the pastor has, the angry, bullying, intimidating attitude will eventually rub off on the lay leadership of the church. Mac WANTS it to rub off. He directed his SHUT EM DOWN remarks to the "churchmen and church ladies".
The process of an angry preacher forming an angry church has already begun at FBC Jax, unfortunately.
As reported on this blog a week or so ago, an email was sent out from a member of FBC Jax to leadership in the church. The sender was "Gail Saunders", who claims to be a member of the church. Here is the email Ms. Saunders sent to 100 or so lay leaders at FBC Jacksonville:
My dear fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, as one who was invited to the meeting last year for the unveiling of the Next Generation program, I am writing to each of you to ask you to join me in praying for our leadership in regards to some specific concerns that have been raised by many of our fellow church members. If you believe this message to be harmful or divisive for any reason, please read no further and delete this email. I certainly understand and hope you will see my heart in writing to you.
I truly believe our church can wholeheartedly follow our pastor wherever he feels the Lord is leading us, but this can only be done with openness, humility love and more accountability between the church leaders and our entire congregation. I am particularly troubled over recent bylaw changes revoking certain legal rights of the members while concentrating more power with less accountability in our pastor; a newly formed discipline committee delivering trespass papers to long-time, active members who expressed concerns about transparency in finances; the charging of large fees for promotions at the Pastor's Conference; a $300,000 land gift accepted by the pastor and Mrs. Brunson just weeks after he arrived; and several other actions that, when taken as a whole, lead me to desire to see more transparency from our leaders during these upcoming exciting days in our church.
Thank you for your prayers for our church.
P.S. - For those of you that are interested in reading what your fellow church members are discussing, these concerns and many others are being discussed at this site: www.fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com. I believe that some, not all, of the concerns raised there are valid, and if left unaddressed, may hamper our pastor's leadership ability. Perhaps we as leaders can work with our staff and lay leadership to address and correct these issues and alleviate many of these members' concerns. This will help, I pray, to bring all of our members along with us as we strive to move forward in ministry together.
What was the response of the churchmen and church ladies to Ms. Saunders, the KINGDOM KILLJOY? Well, I have the email responses she received. She sent I think a very kind email, but likely what got everyone's dander up was the reference to this blogsite. People went stark raving mad. They completely ignored her request to pray. She said not one single, solitary response said they would join her in praying for the church. The majority of recipients did not respond at all, but of the 40 or so who DID respond about 1/2 just said to stop sending emails, and 1/2 reprimanded Ms. Saunders for sending the email. And some were very ugly, sent by deacons, Sunday School teachers, and other lay leaders.
Its a sad day at FBC Jax, when a person sends an email asking people to pray for their church leadership, expresses some genuine concerns, and they are immediately judged as trying to be harmful, devisive...and in one case called "Satan" and in another asked to "LEAVE THE CHURCH".
But when the pastor preaches that brand of Christianity, these results are completely expected. When the preacher brands these people as Pharisees and legalists, and tells his church to SHUT EM DOWN, no wonder some church members responded the way they did to this email.
As I said, "Angry Pastors, Angry Churches".
In the next post, I will provide a sampling of the ugly responses (with the names and email addresses deleted, to protect the angry), and the one and only positive post, which turns out was a reply to an ugly post from one of the responders. If the church administration did indeed send out a response, feel free to send it to the Watchdog for posting also.
This past Sunday night Mac was again in his sheep beating mode
ReplyDeleteToday, as in many days of recent past, WD was again in his pastor beating mode.
If we could only narrow it to a one way street then it might simply disappear in the distance. But no, if the pastor is going to sling mud, then we are also.
WD - you have made your points, and you have made them well. It appears to me that you are bent on bringing down Brunson, even if it costs further destruction of the church.
ReplyDeleteBrunson is wrong about many things - yes.
Don't tear up the church to prove it.
If FBCJax can THRIVE and grow, "in spite" of Brunson, don't stand in it's way.
The church is about the Lord, not the pastor, and sometimes the Lord blesses the church in spite of the pastor.
When you discourage the "academy" and you discourage pastors from coming to the pastor's conference, you're not just hurting MB, you're hurting FBCJAX.
It appears that you want so badly to see him fail, that you fail to see that his failure will cause the failure of many others.
There may be many church members who see what you see, and say what you say, but would rather press forward with it as it is, than not press forward at all.
I was at the PC, and many of your members did speak to me, and expressed, (without my asking) that they wanted to move forward with their Pastor.
I think you have well documented your case, you've had your say, and people have heard you.
It's the Lord's Church, not MB's. Don't tear up the Lord's work because you've found a "belligerent" worker.
I would close this thing now, before you do more harm than you intended.
Your case is made. FBCJAX is as it is. Close now, while it still is what it is, and does not go down any further. I have to believe that you do not want to contribute to further losses at the church.
WD It is God's job to move the pastor not yours. If FBC is the praying church that you say it is then if they soaked it in prayer God has sent you a pastor pray for him. Support him all you can you can disagree but the internet and constantly finding something to moan and groan about is not supporting the church nor your pastor. 1 Samuel 24:6 And he said to his men, "The LORD forbid that I should do this thing to my master, the LORD’S anointed, to stretch out my hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD."
ReplyDeleteThat was David when he could have killed Saul
It is God's church and He will put the man He wants there when He wants to and right now Dr Brunson is there.
Kevin in Oklahoma
I know people pastors do not always do things the way the people in the pews would. It is like all the arm chair qbs wouldnt have lost the game the way their team did because they would have made the right throw. Remember your pastor is human and as a pastor who at one time sat in the pews like yall I can say it is hard to always make the right choices thankfully I have a church who loves me and I love them and they do not get on the net moaning and groaning. Also those wanting Mac to answer all your criticism a wise old pastor told me once when you answer all the criticisms you hear or are asked to respond to soon all you will do is answer criticism as Satan will use it to distract you plus when you do not answer something you did not hear all will say it has to be true since you did not respond.
When people ask for the blog to shut down, aren't you asking that truth be hidden? basically aren't you asking for the lies to be perpetuated?
ReplyDeleteAnon - sounds good, but I reject the logic of somehow blaming the problems at a church on the one who is shining light on the abuses of an arrogant pastor. You mention the school - ok, a parent that thinks they want to send their kid to FBC Jax, maybe they ought to know the pastor views people who ask questions about "miniscule" issues believes those people are Pharisees and should be SHUT DOWN. I would not send my kid to a school pastored by that kind of man, as I know that the pastor will set the tone for the church and the school. I want to know that as a parent any concern I have, no matter how large or small, will be heard and I will receive an answer, and I will not be put down or made to feel less of a Christian for raising the concern.
ReplyDeleteThe WD is bent on bringing down Brunson? Not hardly. Anyways, how on earth can a blogger "bring down Brunson"? Are there bloggers "bringing down Jonathan Falwell"? Even at Bellevue, there doesn't appear to be an active blog "brining down Gaines". Where is the blog "bringing down Hunt" or here in town "bringing down Reavis" at NJBC.
Answer is: no blog could bring down men of integrity.
If Mac is in peril, if the FBC Jax is in peril as you say, you're telling me it is becasue of a blog? An anonymous blog? A blog of "beauty shop gossip?" No way. If FBC Jax is in peril it is not the fault of the bloggers it is Mac himself and those in positions of leadership who are refusing to hold him accountable. It is the truth being made known to more and more people.
Some free advice for Mac: Mac should grow up, face up, man up to the problems that exist right now, and take corrective action. Don't blame it on Kingdom Killjoys. He has a 15 million dollar budget, a Nashville church marketing consultant and a staff of 15+ seminary trained professional ministers at his disposal to take corrective action. Get to work, fix the problem, and quit griping about gripers.
And by the way, the blogger has a keyboard and no staff and no budget. He just blogs the truth. As he sees it.
Deal with it.
What a crock. go ahead and tell your readers there is no Ms. Gail Saunders or at least not one that is a member of FBC as her email suggest. I personally know most if not all that were on that email blast and I am confident they pray for our church, our pastor and our staff regularly. May I ask, how about you? You can’t possible ask God to bless our church, pastor and staff and express a thankful heart and still right all of this junk. Why don’t you tell your reader how successful you think you were at calling those organizations that were interested in supporting the Pastors conference and trying to persuade them other wise? Or the many churches you called and left messages and anonymous letters and emails you sent to pastors trying to discourage them from attending this year. And all for what? You are so deep in your own deceit, you cant tell the difference anymore. In the beginning so much of what you wrote had merit. But now, your readers have very obviously "drank your cool-aid" as you so appropriately coined that term about anyone who opposes your tactics. You can no longer see the forest for the trees and have successfully misled many people who may have been a more positive and encouraging aspect of your "cause" but now have been led down this horrible path of hateful, ugly, bitter, backbiting and unconscionable misrepresentation of the truth. Through all of this, I just don’t see "Why" what was your point, what did your really think you would achieve? You say you don’t intend to “bring him down” but you speak so negatively and ugly about him, you attack his family’s character and integrity, you make fun of him and his family. So childish and hateful. Forty years in this church and I thought I had seen and heard it all, but you really take the cake and deserve a trophy for the most conceited and arrogant malcontent I have ever had any contact with. GOOD JOB. I feel sorry for what every church you are soon to be moving your membership to. I know you will quickly set them straight on what is right and what is wrong, have fun with that.
ReplyDelete"blogs the truth" (key phrase) as HE sees it.
ReplyDeletePlease readers discern the truth for your self. Not just one mans point of view. Hundreds know and support our pastor and staff. Thousands remain faithful to our church and a small few wounded individuals are so upset they (he) would say anything while on his soapbox if you continue to believe him and feed in to this rubbish. By the way, at one point WD stopped accepting comment from anonymous replies. Guess what, the replies almost stopped completely. Have you ever considered how many of the replies might possibly be from WD himself in order to fuel the fire and keep the content interesting and sensational enough for those few who keep reading? just a thought.
Free Advice to the WD.
ReplyDeleteIf you are anything like your random, misguided, writings, childish jabbering and mud slinging, you poor use of the English language, your misinformation about history and your complete coward ness in your anonymity how in the world can you even dare to offer:
Some free advice for Mac: Mac should grow up, face up, man up.
You can’t hold a candle to the man and aren’t worthy to wipe his shoes. Are you kidding, you offer "free advice" what a joker you are. Why don’t you "Man Up, grow up, come forward and face up - pathetic is what you are WD. There is no honor in what you write, what you do and who you are. Your family should be embarrassed. This is surely not a story that you are looking forward to sharing with your grandchildren some day - Guess what papa did and said about another person (forget he is a fellow Christian and a respected Pastor) did you teach this kind of behavior to your children. Do you want your grandchildren to talk about and be mean and ugly like this example you have set? I guess so, too bad for them.
Anon 527
ReplyDeleteIt's not a crock, you miss the point!
Gail's email is primarily about the leadership, including Mac, dealing with the 'real' issues of deceit...land gift, nepotism, arrogance, anger in the pulpit, etc., etc.
Try to defend Mac on the 'issues'....don't blog about essentially non-issues!
Until the fbc leadership actually 'leads' and deals with the real 'issues' they are the ones hurting the church...it's simple pride and arrogance.
Anon 537,
ReplyDeleteIt's not rubish...you too miss the point completely. Watchdog serves a purpose and that is exposing the abuses of fbc leadership and Pastor Mac.
Just try to defend Mac on the land gift...say it isn't so...he says don't accept large gifts in his book and does it himself. He says don't hire your family in his book and then hires his wife without even disclosing her duties or salary.
Are these accusations not the TRUTH? Most readers can see this...why can't you?
It won't go away until the issues are dealt with...the church will continue to suffer 'when good men do nothing'.
Anon 602,
ReplyDeleteYou too miss the point of the blog. Watchdog has exposed several issues very eloquently about the abuses of Mac and the fbc leadership.
Please defend Mac on the acceptance of a large land gift and nepotism...things he says don't do in his book and then does himself. We are supposed to trust a leader like this?
Go ahead defend Mac on the issues...that is what this blog is about!
I DARE any of you to refute the claims. The copy of the deed is on the site. The "discipline" was not handled according to Matt 18. The pastors guidebook just reeks of hypocrisy. Read the issues and then prove them wrong.
ReplyDeleteI guess you "defenders" would also say that the bylaw changes weren't done in an underhanded way.
No, I didn’t miss the point, you did, as usual and I hope your readers don’t either, GAIL'S EMAIL is FAKE. There is NO GAIL at FBCJAX. It was just another feeble attempt by you to try and attack the Pastor and staff. Too bad you don’t have a mirror in your home to see whether it is a beam or a speck in your own eye.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog: It's hopeless. It seems like the whole church is like 6:02. This church has become what it wants to be. Whatever that is, it isn't a church anymore. My opinion.
ReplyDeleteTo those who are drinking the WD cool-aide: My point is that the way WD has asserted himself as the "Doer of Good Deeds, the Righter of Wrong and the all knowing expert" is a sham. Those of you that beleive everything you read are a scary bunch. The methods by which WD is "exposing" these alleged atrocities is bordering on criminal and certainly as unscrupulous as those he has accused. The evil words, the lack of respect and common indecency is just repulsive all through this blogsite. So tell me, before blogs and all of this anonymity, how would "REAL" men of God settled these issues? Before all of this modern technology, what would you have done to bring all of these evils to the attention of us "dumb as sheep" church goers? That is my point. This has been a horrible choice and a very unmanly as well as unchristian option for dealing with matters of concern within the Body of Believers. And if you don’t get that point, you aren’t worth the breath it takes to explain it.
ReplyDeleteAnon - now that's good to know.
ReplyDeleteGossip. Slander. Now Criminal.
And unmanly.
I think being a bully in the pulpit is about as unmanly and cowardice as one can get.
Next is anonymously attacking anonymous bloggers.
Please, give your full name if you wish to attack people for their anonymity.
Why all the hostility here? I thought this was just a beauty shop gossip blog that the pastor never reads.
Cool it, Brunson defenders. Save your hostility for Mac, demanding that he stop his abusive ways.
Blessings, brothers.
Angry Pastor, Angry Church members.
ReplyDeleteYou Brunson defenders are making my case very well.
Thank you all very much.
It was very sad, hearing Mac tell his audience in North Carolina that we at FBC Jax are a "hotbed of legalism" and that "we don't have a relationship with Christ." I could not imagine speaking ill of my family in a public arena. If Mac dislikes us so much, then he needs to leave! I have been at FBC for over 20 years. I'm very thankful that Dr. Lindsay was my pastor when I joined FBC. He taught us to love, care for, and witness to others. Door to door evangelism worked then. It will work now. Door to door is what brought us to FBC. Dr. Lindsay led us to Christ. Dr. Lindsay was encouraging! Dr. Lindsay preached God's Word, instead of carrying on with his own personal agenda! He spoke the truth even when it was painful to hear. But.... you always knew when he "stepped on your toes" that it was for our own good, not his! I'm not "stuck in the past" and trying to idolize Dr. Lindsay. But, I sure hope and pray that our church will soon be led my a man of integrity such as Dr. Lindsay! Amen!
ReplyDeleteTo anon 6:39 pm -
ReplyDeleteAs someone far removed from your church, but a born again Christian, I have one thing to say regarding your comment to WD: "And if you don’t get that point, you aren’t worth the breath it takes to explain it." To tell ANYone, much less another Christian (I assume you are one?) that they 'aren't worth the breath it takes' when Jesus DIED for him just as He did for YOU, how do you dare write that, especially in a public blog??? That is more evidence of an un-Christian attitude than anything written here. How will you justify that attitude to God? Shame on you.
D
Actually, it appears that Mrs. Saunders is one of the most--if not THE most--emotionally healthy member AND leader of FBCJax.
ReplyDeleteWhile the disrespectful email responses she received from fellow-members are hurtful, Mrs. Saunders can be congratulated for not continuing the passive-agressive behavior which is reported on all sides; she can be commended for taking the initiative publicly--and putting her reputation on the line to do it, as our Savior did--to resolve the conflict.
Mrs. Saunders, if you are reading here today: thank you for setting such a remarkable and Christ-like example in the midst of difficult circumstances. Clearly, no human yet mentioned at this blogsite appears to love FBCJ as much as you and the Lord.
Dr. Lindsay and his Dad, were two of the most Godly, spiritual men to ever be in ministry. Even the most difficult and hardened seemed to know that these men were true men of God. They had a way of showing Jesus that left no doubt as to their calling. To have been under their ministry was a once in a lifetime chance. It is hard to explain unless you were in "their" church. I believe that the Spirit of God so blessed their preaching that it just overflowed onto the rest of us listeners. I owe much to them. I learned to not only read my Bible, but to study it. To know it. The standard they have set is one to strive for. These men were unassuming, they didn't try to impress anyone. They didn't seek popularity or pride of place. Or financial reward. They were very humble men, that loved Jesus and showed it. Their greatest joy was to lead someone to Jesus. I remember Dr. Lindsay Jr., saying upon returning from his heart surgery that "The Lord had given him ten more years, and he was going to spend those ten years leading as many to the Lord as he could". And that was his focus the remainder of his time here. How unique it was to have been priviledged to be in this church with these two giants of the faith.
ReplyDeleteI am not stuck in the past. I just remember it.
Hey! I'm not a member of First Baptist Church-Jacksonville--just another Southern Baptist cruising through this website and reading comments here.
ReplyDeleteI know the reputation that First-Jacksonville either has sought to make for itself or, at the least, has accepted about itself in the SBC; right now, it looks like the congregation isn't living up to that reputation--and I don't need a "Watchdog" to tell me that. Neither do my Southern Baptist friends. We can virtually view what's taking place via the church's website; if it looks like an angry pastor and sounds like an angry pastor, then it probably IS an angry pastor. If it reads like hothead members, then it probably IS hothead members who have real problems with each other.
Listen, folks: people get yelled at in one place only these days--in highway traffic! No one goes to church to be yelled at--or even yelled TO--by the preacher, and no one goes to church to be told by other members basically that they're stupid! If another person who knows what's going on there walks down your aisle on a Sunday to join your membership, then that person really must be crazy; and if all of you let him, then all of your really are cruel.
For Christ's sake, get this thing fixed soon!
To you who believe you are rightfully defending Brunson:
ReplyDeleteDo you think you are righteous in your hateful attacks on the Watchdog & the bloggers? No, you are not righteous. You most assuredly do not come across as Christian.
Once again, for those who cannot bother to read the whole blog. If the questions presented to the preacher would have been answered at the time they came up, THIS BLOG WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN STARTED! Your knee-jerk "we don't care what the preacher did or didn't do, we are going to put these lowlife bloggers in their place" is pathetic and decidedly unChristian in character.
We must pray that the preacher will come to his senses and put this all to rest before the newspapers get hold of this "discipline" matter. Doc needs to immediately call off his bulldogs! Do you see Blount at church? Does he look happy to you? Every time I see him he looks like a miserable unhappy man. That's what you become when you behave in a spiteful, hateful way.
Why would Blount insist on continuing the charade of "discipline" when the "guilty" people have already moved their membership to another church? I'll tell you why. It's because he's being hateful and vindictive! He wants them to pay for what they've done. I wonder if he has ulcers.
You know what I have to say to anybody who believes and agrees with anything the Watchdog says?
ReplyDeleteCHECK YOUR SALVATION!
Wow, the Brunson supporters are really out in force on this one. I have my split countdown clock ready to roll as of Feb 25th once they report on the deacon's meeting and their decision.
ReplyDeleteA very sad day for this once grand vision of God that is turning into a few square blocks of real estate downtown.
"You know what I have to say to anybody who believes and agrees with anything the Watchdog says?
ReplyDeleteCHECK YOUR SALVATION!"
Wow! Good theology! Glad to know this person has the inside scoop on salvation. If that's the way it works....
You know what I have to say about a minister who uses the pulpit so repulsively???...and has no idea he signed up to be a servant not a king??
Check his salvation while you are at it.
Readers: I just was reading the long anon post above and saw this:
ReplyDelete"Why don’t you tell your reader how successful you think you were at calling those organizations that were interested in supporting the Pastors conference and trying to persuade them other wise? Or the many churches you called and left messages and anonymous letters and emails you sent to pastors trying to discourage them from attending this year."
I don't know if anyone was calling or emailing or sending letters to organizations supporting the pastor's conference. If so, it sure wasn't the watchdog. If people were calling pastors or sending anonymous emails to pastors about the pastors conference, it wasn't the watchdog.
Please hear me very carefully, especially you deacons who might be reading this:
The watchdog has received emails from people over the past year that know Brunson and lay leaders but are readers of the blog and share the Watchdog's concerns...and I can tell you that false rumors about the Watchdog, who he is, what he is, his sexual orientation, etc....rumors have been spread....and I wouldn't doubt that some might be those mentioned above in the Anon post. The Watchdog certainly hasn't had time to be calling and leaving voicemails or sending mails. The blog is plenty - it reaches about 1000 readers per day, so it would be pretty fruitless to spend time sending letters and calling people when the blog is the most efficient means in communicating the happenings at FBC Jax. Its likely that many pastors Googling FBC Jax to find out info about the pastors conference might have hit this blog...but the WD hasn't been calling or emailing anyone. Get real, anon.
It would not suprise me if much of this so called "proof" that is supposed to "convict" Watchdog, hasn't been MANUFACTURED by this Kangaroo court. Whatever they come up with, I don't trust it. I am interested in seeing how many of the deacons are still honorable men and how many "roll over" for this out of control bully.
ReplyDeleteI doubt WD has been Emailing anyone. He doesn't have access to Email addresses. That aside, he doesn't have to do anything other than this blog. This pastor just can't find fault in himself anywhere. All anyone has to do is listen to him. He convicts himself with his angry, hurtful manner in his own pulpit. If I wanted to convince someone that he was a bully, all I would say is just tune in and listen to the man.
I doubt ALL of the deacons will have a say in this debacle. It will probably be the usual "in the pastors pocket" yes men, who will speak for ALL. Many of these "deacons" want to continue being "deacons" because it is a mark of social superiority they think. If one of them dares to go against the pastor they will be "shut down" as Mac says in minutes. Some deacons are caught between two problems . If they have guts enough to disagree with the pastor and supporters.. they are finished at FBC and their wives with them. If they participate in this wrongful, hurtful action then they must deaden their conscience. They must ask ... who are they serving, God or man? I think I know how it will go, unless God somehow has HIS way. Not a good time to be associated with FBCJ. This is a good time to go to the Bible and read the actions of the PERFECT EXAMPLE, JESUS, who loved us all so much that HE died on the CROSS for us. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
ReplyDeleteI keep telling myself it's hopeless at FBC. They have their own Kingdom down there (we are the killjoys, says Mac). And they will destroy anyone threatening their reign in the kingdom. But, I keep remembering what this church once stood for, I keep praying that it will get back where it was. A soul winning church. That once stood for Jesus. Jesus was once head of this church. I want HIM to own it again. Believe me if people were honest they would admit it is a shell spiritually of what it once was. Now it is the personal kingdom of a man.
ReplyDeleteGail Saunders: God bless you, sister in Christ.
ReplyDeleteConviction, and the courage which rightfully should accompany it--that's what FBCJ's deacons better have during their upcoming meeting. Otherwise, the appearance: either no biblical conviction OR too chicken to stand up for those convictions (of course, ones with both conviction and courage probably could stop the meeting from happening at all by doing the right thing today: go visit the pastor). Everyone will know which it was on February 25.
ReplyDeleteEveryone: How'd you like be one of those men?
I wonder how much influence the deacon wives have in this matter? I would not want to be a deacon now, in this church. I would be upset with the pastor for putting me in this position. But, this is when he will find out who is loyal to "him" and who isn't. This could be an additional reason for this action. This will cement the final control. Unless the deacons "swallow" their convictions and go with Mac they are history. The pressure from the supporter "yes men" must be huge. Or else they are going to control it all anyway. So guys better examine yourself and find out "what you are" man or mouse.
ReplyDeleteWHATSOEVER THINGS ARE TRUE
ReplyDeleteWHATSOEVER THINGS ARE HONEST
WHATSOEVER THINGS ARE JUST
WHATSOEVER THINGS ARE PURE:
Men on Feb 23, 2009 when the Deacons meet with King Mac Brunson, there better be some HARD EVIDENCE as to the true identity of Watchdog. None of this-
HE WROTE THIS SO WE ASSUME
HE DID THIS SO WE ASSUME
WE HEARD HIM SAY THIS SO WE ASSUME
WE BELIEVE THIS OF HIM SO WE ASSUME
No, there better be HARD EVIDENCE FROM THE BLOG SITE WITH BACK UP EVIDENCE IN HAND, SO ALL OF THE DEACONS CAN SEE AND FEEL. I mean LETTER HEAD DOCUMENTS, not typed out documentation on FBCJ paper.
If this is not done then what you will hear is Mac's word. King Saul's[Brunson's] word.
If the evidence is littered with fabrication, Mac should be HISTORY.
Deacons, look ye well. Be the men that you have always been and that the Lord expects you to be.
What is happening now to the accused is what Brunson has been preparing his church for.
ReplyDeleteHere is Mac's process, that culminates in the vote Monday night with the deacons:
1. He changed the bylaws to create a discipline committee that reports to HIM. The bylaws specifically state the committee must come to HIM to determine if an offense rises to scriptural discipline. Therefore, a formal process is in place to go after the blogger and SHUT HIM DOWN.
2. He has preached to his congregation about church discipline, but in very vague terms, hit and miss. He has never seriously taught his church what church discipline is, he has only made references to it, many in a very threatening way as has been chronicled on this blog. Mac knows his sheep at FBC Jax know very little of scriptural church discipline, and he is using this to his advantage. He puts it in the bylaws so he can use it to discipline his critics, but he doesn't let the church know that its in the bylaws! And he doesn't either seriously teach on the subject. Mac knows that churches like the one here in Jax that disciplined the woman who was living with her boyfriend...Mac knows that they actually TEACH discipline to new members, and new mebers are TOLD CLEARLY about the process. But Mac doesn't have the guts to do that, but he still wants the church discipline card in his bag of tricks. One of the worst statements he made was the night in December when the accused was barred from church with the trespass warnings and was not allowed to see their daughter sing - he said that he is to deal harshly with people to "put the fear of God in YOU." That has been his goal. What is laughable, is that the process used against the accused has without a doubt NOT been in accordance with scripture.
3. On at least two occasions he has threatened the deacons - saying they should not be "worriers" else they are not "trusting Jesus", and if someone is a worrier then "don't put 'em on the deacon board." Then more recently he screamed at a deacon ordination service deacons are not to be "businessmen" in the church. Intimidation from the pastor over the deacons. You go with me, don't create any waves, else you're not worthy of your position as deacon.
It all culminates in this process... which I will blog about later today...the process where the accused will be voted on by the deacons to be removed from fellowship, and then the church will be asked to give their ascent to this. And as I am familiar with the plight of the accused members, here is the sickest part: these men, including John Blount who seems to be the gopher between the accused and the discipline committee, say that the purpose of the action this Monday night is for "reconciliation and restoration"....which, to me, is a damnable lie. John Blount should know, and presumably the committee knows, that this man and his wife and family joined another church February 1st by TRANSFER OF LETTER, and their new church requested the letters on February 4th. There is nothing to reconcile, there is nothing to restore, and the sin has been removed from the church already. There are some other facts shared with me that I will let the church family know about in this process, that show their attempts at this meeting and bringing it before the church are not at all reconcilatory, but are an attempt to either exact revenge on who they think is primarily responsible for this blog, and they wish to use this as an example to the congregation of what will happen to them if they decide to be a "Kingdom Killjoy" by expressing displeasure with the pastor's leadership.
Reconcilatory and Restorative?
Not even by a long shot.
If they go through with the Deacons meeting, and then the church gives their ascent on Wednesday, it will be a sad day in the life of FBC Jax.
More coming soon.
THAT IS WHY THE DEACONS MUST COME.
ReplyDeleteThey will hear HARD AND FAST PROOF that this man is the blogger that has purposely, maliciously attacked our church and our pastor for two years.
He is not the man you all thought him to be. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, devouring the sheep while he shook our hands and smiled at us.
Perhaps they will also discuss how this man has harmed the church, the giving, the Pastor's peace of mind, etc. Its all part of the story.
Don't believe the sob story of the poor "accused" as he calls himself. He should call himself the "guilty one".
But don't believe me, just come to the deacons meeting and they will show you.
He will be exposed, and the deacons will KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this man is the Watchdog, and he can be removed from the fellowship, and whatever other action necessary to help the healing to begin in our church so we can move forward after this ordeal is over.
Reconcilatory and Restoration: Bull. Maybe Brunson style. Looks more like revenge, "your going to pay, you evil Watchdog". How can you RESTORE someone to the fold of FBC if they arn't there anymore. No it's revenge pure and simple. And so what if the Watchdog is the accused. He just reports....we decide.
ReplyDeleteMatt 18 was not followed. Not one single person ever visited the accused to take this matter up privately. Everything that followed is unscriptural including the two that came out to begin with. Read the book!!!
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:15am...As my wife would say.."You sound like You're 2 years old!...Well since you are positive that this person is WD and the proof will be presented "HARD" and "FAST...Please present to us bloggers the HARD and FAST facts on Dr.Dog's accusations concern Mac and his abuses!!
ReplyDeleteI do not believe WD's actions warrant excommunication from the Church. Please note the Church here does not refer to Fbc Jax, but the WHOLE Church. All WD has done is ask questions. Of course, he has parodied in jest. Compared to the mud slinging widely prevalent in SBC blogs, this blog is very MILD.
ReplyDeleteDr. J.L. Dagg: Unable to Teach at SWBTS?
Dr. John Leadley (J.L.) Dagg (1794-1884) was the first Southern Baptist systematic theologian to be widely read and accepted by Southern Baptists as a whole. J.L. Dagg pastored the Fifth Baptist Church in Philadelphia for ten years (1825-1834) and would later serve as President of Mercer University in Penfield, Georgia (1844-1854). Mercer enjoyed tremendous growth and recognition during Dagg's presidency, eventually moving to its current location in Macon, Georgia.
MANUAL OF THEOLOGY SECOND PART A TREATISE ON CHURCH ORDER BY J. L. DAGG - CHAPTER IX DISCIPLINE
SECTION III.--EXCOMMUNICATION
The right to excommunicate belongs to the church, without any appeal.
This is clear from the words of Christ: "If he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as an heathen man and a publican." That it is not the province of a minister to excommunicate is clear from the instructions of Paul to the church at Corinth.(4) If ministers had a right to excommunicate, Paul, with his high apostolic authority, would have exercised the right himself, or would have directed to the clerical tribunal by which the right was to be exercised. But he instructed the church to do the work, and, therefore, to the church it properly belonged. The punishment was to be inflicted, not by the officers of the church, but by the whole church assembled together with the power and presence of Christ, and the act performed is called the punishment inflicted by many.(5) Some, because the word rendered "many" in the passage is in the comparative degree, have interpreted it by the majority, but whether this be its import or not, it seems to imply that the sentence was passed by popular vote.
The obligation to exclude unworthy persons from church-fellowship, is taught in various passages of Scripture. "Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."(6) "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject."(7) "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."(8) "If any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed."(9) "Now, I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences, contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."(10)
In excommunication, regard should be had, not only to the glory of God, but to the good of the offender. This appears from the words of Paul: "For the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved."(11) The happy result of this excommunication, the only one which is particularly recorded in the history of the New Testament churches, is a strong encouragement to the exercise of faithful discipline. It has been remarked, that when discipline leaves a church, Christ goes with it.
1. 1 Pet. iii. 15.
2. Ps. lxvi. 16.
3. Col. iv. 17.
4. 1 Cor. v. 4, 5.
5. 2 Cor. ii. 6.
6. 1 Cor. v. 13.
7. Titus iii. 10.
8. 2 Thes. iii. 6.
9. 2 Thes. iii. 14.
10. Rom. xvi. 17.
11. 1 Cor. v. 5.
Have we lost the Gospel?
1. In preaching
I took several hours last spring to listen to a number of SBC seminary chapel sermons. I heard lots about leadership, commitment, courage, faithfulness, sheep, shepherds, prayer and devotion, I heard very little of Jesus Christ. Often Christ was mentioned almost as an afterthought. I realize that this is far from a scientific study (but if you are interested in one that corroborates my concerns about Southern Baptist preaching, see Marsha Whitten's All is Forgiven) but the sermons were preached by well-known and highly respected Southern Baptist pastors. It is not unreasonable to expect that their sermons to seminarians would be carefully prepared. Assuming that to be the case, I came away from my exercise rather discouraged.
Here is an experiment that I recommend. Get a simple outline of the Gospel in your mind and listen to the sermons preached in your church (even if you are the preacher!) or other churches and try to determine to what degree the Gospel is the basis of them. Too often only some facts related to the Gospel are tacked on at the end of a message in order to justify some kind of altar call, but the Gospel itself is not foundational to it. If a sermon would play just as well in a Kingdom Hall or Jewish Synagogue as it would in a Baptist church, you can be sure it is void of the Gospel.
2. In Christian living
Very often the Gospel is viewed only as the threshhold into the Christian life by which one must enter the kingdom. Once in, however, the Gospel loses its importance. Where this happens in conservative churches moralism tends to gain preeminence and Christianity tends to be conceived in terms of rules and requirements. In moderate and liberal churches sentimentalism tends to reign and attitudes and actions are evaluated in terms of how "loving" they feel. Do not misunderstand--the Christian life includes both rules and especially love (rightly understood, of course), but the Christian life is based on neither. It is based on Jesus Christ--who He is, what He has done and why it matters. That is why we are called to live by faith. Faith in what? Or whom? The person and work of Christ. This is also why Paul could write, "For to me, to live is Christ." Christ was life for Paul because the Gospel had come to him in power. Read the ethical portions of the New Testament to see how the Apostles exhorted the early church to holy living. It wasn't by moralistic teaching. They teach the law on the basis of the Gospel. I see very little concern for the relationship between law and Gospel in Southern Baptist life today. The reason, I believe, is due to the removal of the Gospel from the heart of Christian living.
3. In our churches
The Gospel is the power of God to save all who believe. Churches are to be comprised of those who testify to having experienced this saving power. Of all the sectors of evangelicalism, Baptists most certainly should stand firm on this point. Yet, simply take an honest look at our churches--even good, "Bible-believing," "flagship" SBC churches. What do you find more often than not? Bloated church rolls with twice as many members as regular attenders. The overwhelming majority of our churches have neglected Gospel order, taking cues more from the marketing world or corporate America or therapeutic professions than from Scripture. John Dagg, the first writing theologian among Southern Baptists put this in his Treatise on Church Order, "When discipline leaves a church, Christ goes with it." If he is correct, then how many Christless churches might we have within our ranks? Read Revelation 2 and 3 to see that Jesus Himself warns of this possibility. If the candlestick has been removed from a local church then the Gospel has been taken with it.
What will we be in the SBC?
I invite both my Calvnist and non-Calvinist brothers and sisters to join me in encouraging and working for this kind of future in the SBC. Let's work together to come to deeper understandings and applications of the gospel. We may disagree at points, but such disagreements, if handled with gospel grace, can work to strengthen our grasp of divine truth rather than to further divide us. That is my hope, and that is my prayer.
Readers: Wow, someone is hard at work at FBC Jax today, visiting the Watchdog website and reading lots of pages. Must be preparing for the Monday meeting. Need to prepare to build the case!
ReplyDeleteSomeone at the FBC Jax offices has been on the Watchdog site for the last 1 hour and 24 minutes, with 22page views.
Go get 'em!
Hey FBC Jax, maybe you can fly Maurilio down for the meeting Monday, he can be the expert witness to explain why the accused is the Watchdog! Or, better yet, since Mac has always wanted to be a lawyer, he could serve as the prosecuting attorney. He could present the case against the accused! Also, make sure the TV cameras are there so that a segment can be put in the "FBC Jax in 80 Seconds"
WD - I am anon 4:31 yesterday
ReplyDeleteI did not blame the problems at the church on your blog. (Or at least I didn't intend for it to sound that way.) The problems you have expressed with Brunson, have nothing to do with this blog.
However, this blog, is perpetuating and continuing the degradation of the problem.
You have people that agree with you about Brunson, but are willing to proceed with him anyway. Apparantly, there are more that want to proceed with him than do not.
Let Them.
With the Lord, there is always the potential that Brunson, and Church will heal, and move forward. It appears that you do not want that.
If you were in the majority, I might be telling you different.
You pointed out wrong in the church.
It has been heard, mulled over, and prayed about.
Most want to proceed, "in spite of it."
LET THEM.
Your blog may not have been the problem at first, but it certainly is keeping any form of healing from taking place.
I love your church. It has been a refreshment to me over the years. I have no vested interest in it other than the PC, and yes I have my concerns over the PC.
Let the Lord work it out. It appears that all that can be said, has been said.
So it's time to stop saying.
Anon 12:52pm....By your logic just because I've preached to countless people to believe the Gospel and the majority will not believe;;Am I to pack it up and stop preaching and let the Lord deal with them/it?..What other atrocities in our Churches such as people preying on children(Bob Gray and Darrell Gilyard)should I let the Lord handle them?..The Word of God is clear that anyone(Pastor included)who are abusing or disregarding Biblical truth are to be confronted period!!!!"ANYONE"!!MAC INCLUDED!!!
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:52
ReplyDeleteLet me be very clear.
I was going to phase this blog out.
But after I saw Mac's sermon Sunday night, telling his "churchmen and church ladies" that if they encounter someone that "robs their joy" (which is to say voices displeasure at something in the church), to SHUT EM DOWN....I determined at that point.
I will never, ever, shut this blog down.
Because Mac seeks to shut it down.
I will not shut it down.
Mac, Deb, Trey, and Maurilio, or the Trustees and other enablers, will have to get a court order to shut it down.
Yes, a court order.
And if they do, it will pop up somewhere else. Plans are in place, it will pop up somewhere else. Yes, it will.
I will continue to point out the abuses of Mac Brunson in and out of the pulpit as I become aware of them.
Unrelenting.
Mac's arrogance has sealed his fate as it pertains to this blog.
He will have to deal with this blog as long as he continues his abuse.
And he has been relentless, for THREE YEARS...in being a bully, and behaving in ways contrarty to scripture and to his own Pastor's Guidebook...and I will not shut this blog down, since he seeks to shut it down.
Did you hear me?
Did I just say that?
You better believe I did.
This blog will not shut down.
If I croak, it will be passed on.
Word to the Trustees: if we hire a pastor who verbally abuses the congregation and acts like a bully and promotes himself and his family and his marketing consultant:
SHUT HIM DOWN.
Pregnant Pause.
And the blog continues.
I will never, ever, shut this blog down.
ReplyDeleteBecause Mac seeks to shut it down.
I will not shut it down.
Mac, Deb, Trey, and Maurilio, or the Trustees and other enablers, will have to get a court order to shut it down.
Yes, a court order.
And if they do, it will pop up somewhere else. Plans are in place, it will pop up somewhere else. Yes, it will.
Congratulations, Mac!
Dr.Dog..Very good Dr.Dog..If Mac had won by shutting downs this blog,God only knows what OTHER ABUSES he has in mind waiting to implement!!
ReplyDeleteAmen Watchdog don't SHUT EM DOWN!!!
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact considering what is happening across the country in church after church; there should be a host of new blogs started to show what the likes of Brunson [preachers] have, and are becoming.
Before I get out of control let me say this.
Thank the Lord for faithful pastors. Men who have woven our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into every one of their massages over the years. Men who have preached the gospel while feeding Christians the milk, bread and meat. Those who have, by preaching the Word of God, helped build strong men, women, boys and girls. Men who exemplify 1 Tim 3. Spirit filled men of God.
Then there are the others!!! The Mac Brunsons. Listen, I'm not sure that he ever enters the pulpit with the Holy Spirit. It looks to me like his messages are all AGENDA DRIVEN. These men want to change everything. They seldom preach the Gospel and rarely mention doctrine. What good are they?
Am I mad at these BRUNSONITES?
YOU BET I AM!!!
THANKS FOR THE STAND DOG, WE ARE WITH YOU.
You know what PEOPLE? I bet all of Bernie Madoff's victim wish they had a blog exposing his corruption and greed, BEFORE they got burned!!!
ReplyDeleteLay off the WD. When it comes down to it, WD is the one you can trust, not your pastor and his family. He's the one exploiting all of you people; living an insanely lavish lifestyle off your backs, then blasting you about it because you cry "foul". You tell me how one can defend this. Hey, some people just like to be abused. They think it's normal.
WD - Perhaps Judge Soud may wish to discuss this with the deacons who are voting next week:
ReplyDeleteMac says to "take it up with the book", well I say to "take it up with the Florida Supreme Court"
I found this case online: Malicki versus Jane Doe, Supreme Court of Florida, March 14, 2002. Here are some conclusions of the Supreme Court of Florida which essentially opens the courthouse doors to people harmed by a religious institution. (ie: allows lawsuits to be filed and heard that involves full discovery, disclosure, subpoena powers, depositions, records requests, liability exposure of staff members, etc.)
The question framed to the court was "Whether, in the name of the First Amendment, religious institutions can be shielded from otherwise cognizable tort claims caused by their AGENTS AND EMPLOYEES." (EMPHASIS MINE, this would include trustees and deacons and staff)
The court answers the question in the negative, that religious institutions and their agents and employees can NOT be shielded.
Some quotes fom the holding: "Conduct remains subject to regulation for the protection of society."
"...should hold religious organizations liable in civil courts for secular disputes between third parties and a religiously affiliated organization."
"We reject the contention that the First Amendment may be invoked to bar the adjudication of this dispute because this case is not an internal church matter. Rather, this is a dispute between church officials and parishioners who allege they were injured as a result of church officials."
"Through neutral application of principles of tort law, we thus give no greater or lesser deference to tortious conduct committed on third parties by religious organizations than we do to tortious conduct committed on third parties by non-religious entities."
"The claim is brought after an employee has harmed a third party through his or her office of employment." (I would add trustee or deacon through their position also share this exposure for liability if they vote to act.)
Conclusion: "However, with regard to a third party tort claim against a religious institution, we conclude that the First Amendment does not provide a shield behind which a church may avoid liability for harm..."
Amen and Amen! Take it up with the Judge, Brutha!
Let's just hope our church, its agents, deacons, trustees and committees do NOT "harm" the accused in any way that will subject ALL of them to a civil lawsuit. The WD, or the accused WD, has been accused of harming the church by one harmless, anonymous, beauty shop blog with no credibility (according to the pastor and staff), imagine how much harm will be done if these folks, in their zeal to "support God's" man despite his abuses, actually take action to harm the accused.
Stay tuned. I sure am... :0) (Hi Mr. Blount. Have a nice day!)
Anon 3:00pm...Thanks!..There are a few Faithful men of God who toil un-noticed letting the Life and Love of Christ shine thru them..Then their are the many:This new wave of money driven,self promoting,condesending,arrogant,abusive,selfish,and any other adjectives that might describe these perpetrators!!..You know it's odd that practically every New Testament Book deals with wayward interlopers infiltrating the Church and yet there are so-many who still don't have a clue(Mac defenders)!..The many would follow a talking snake as long as he had a Bible in his hand and stated he is a Pastor!!!
ReplyDelete"and I can tell you that false rumors about the Watchdog, who he is, what he is, his sexual orientation, etc....rumors have been spread....and I wouldn't doubt that some might be those mentioned above in the Anon post. "
ReplyDeleteYOu are in good company, WD. They spread the same malicious rumors about Wade Burleson trying to ruin his reputation, too.
It is pretty amazing what so called Chrisitans will do to keep their earthly treasures intact, isn't it?
Matt
I wish someone would tell the FBC Jax mafia, w/Blount as the godfather, that they are going to regret continuing with this nonsense.
ReplyDeleteThey will hurt the cause of Christ because they are more interested in being vindictive than in "restoring" someone to fellowship.
This will hurt the cause of Christ because it will definitely hit the newspapers.
Let us hope the majority of the deacons will recognize this for what it is. It is nothing short of deliberate intimidation directed at anyone who would dare have the nerve to speak out about anything the preacher doesn't approve of first!
They can't force the blog to be shut down, legally or otherwise!
Mac is the Godfather, Vito Corleone.
ReplyDeleteBlount is Tom Hagen or Clemenza.
Hi WD:
ReplyDeleteI don't know what I was thinking, referring to Blount as the godfather. He's more like Deputy Dawg.
But he is a legend in his own mind.
It is Written and the rest of you folks, quit FBC and move to our great downtown church @ Shiloh. It is an awesome place to worship. Our new pastor is a great moral man of high integrity and leadership.
ReplyDelete