....Hunt says they don't even do that at his church to his "men caught in adultery"...The Florida Baptist Witness reported this week that Johnny Hunt still has questions about the firing, or "resignation", of Clark Logan, former VP of the SBC Executive Committee. Hunt is particularly worried that Logan may have been "ushered from the property".
According to news reports in early July, Morris Chapman, EC President, asked for Clark Logan's resignation after getting approval from his board of trustees in a 5 minute conference call on June 30th. The reasons for and the circumstances surrounding Logan's resignation caused Johnny Hunt to publicly call for Chapman to provide answers. It also set off a round of discussions on the Internet, including Twitter, critical of Chapman's actions.
Quite interesting that Hunt is using social networking sites to get his answers. He even admitted that he had not spoken privately with Chapman about the Logan departure, but still called for Chapman, through Twitter through the media, to give answers to his concerns.
It seems Hunt and other prominent SBC pastors and leaders don't have a problem airing grievances with their fellow denominational leaders now on Twitter, blogs, and Facebook, even though they have not personally spoken with that person. If pastors are openly criticizing denominational leaders on blogs and Twitter, could it be these pastors will no longer criticize bloggers who openly question THEIR actions? When WILL all of these pastor Twitterers stop "unjustly criticizing" Morris Chapman, at least until they go to his office to meet with him personally?Apparently Hunt still has not received satisfactory answers, as this week he is calling for greater clarity and accountability on Clark's "resignation".
One of Hunt's concerns expressed this week is that Clark Logan may have been "ushered from the property" after his resignation. Says Hunt:
"I thought, if that’s true [Clark escorted from the property], again, I don’t have the answers, but it leads to greater questions. What in the world did he do to be treated like that? … I have 160 employees and I’ve had men caught in adultery that were not treated like that."
Now that is interesting on several fronts. Firstly, maybe Johnny Hunt doesn't know this, but it is standard practice when a person resigns or is fired to have someone escort the person to their office, collect their belongings, and then to "usher" or escort that person from the property. No big deal, really.
Secondly, this raises a series of questions in my mind.
If Johnny Hunt persists, and keeps asking these questions of Chapman and calling for accountability and openness, will he be called a sociopath for his persistence? Will Johnny be issued trespass papers from the SBC EC offices if he doesn't stop this? Will Mrs. Hunt be given trespass papers for Johnny Hunt's blogging and Twittering and his unjust criticism of Chapman? Will the E.C. trustees pass a "trustees resolution" to "aggressively confront" this "unjust criticism" because their leader "...[has] come under severe but false criticism and ridicule by means of a blog site on the internet which publishes to the world." (excerpts from FBC Deacon's Resolution)
If Hunt is troubled about Logan's poor treatment by being ushered from the SBC property, what would Johnny Hunt say about a church banning a Christian woman from her SBC church who's only "offense" was that she was married to a blogger critical of Mac Brunson? If Hunt is not ushering his adulterers from the church grounds, I assume he isn't doing that to their wives either. Do you think Hunt has issued trespass warnings against any women in his church for the "offense" of being married to someone who is blogging? Of course not.
No one would ever expect Johnny Hunt to Twitter and ask Mac Brunson for answers as to why Yvette Rich was banned from her church by falsely charging her with church misconduct. And would Hunt or any other SBC pastor dare to Twitter and ask Mac the same question about Yvette that Hunt asked about Clark: "What in the world did she do to be treated like that?" After all, she is nothing to Johnny Hunt, and that might embarrass his good friend, Mac Brunson, to call him out for having his church file trespass warnings against her with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.
That said, I do commend Johnny Hunt for standing up publicly for his friend Clark Logan, and asking for answers from Morris Chapman, and continuing to call for accountability, using the media and social network sites. Go Johnny, go.
But where are the friends of Yvette Rich at FBC Jax, that knew her for years and years, that served with her and know of her love and sweetness and dedication to the Lord? Why are they not standing up to hold Mac Brunson and John Blount and A.C. Soud accountable for wrongly filing trespass papers against her for "church misconduct"? Where are the women in her Sunday School class and that have served with her for years? My gosh, where is Marilyn Kilpatrick and Debbie Brunson, and other women staffers - why aren't they standing up for Yvette and demanding accountability? Or do women not have a voice in their own church as to how male leaders treat women in the church? Where are the deacons who know in their hearts that Blount and Brunson and Soud were wrong to go to the sheriff's office to ban a female member for the "sin" of associating with her husband? Are the deacons cowards and afraid to stand up to Brunson and Blount and Soud? Or maybe they value their position and prestige in the church more than standing for what is right?
As Hunt says, he doesn't even treat his adulterous men in that fashion. And I wonder if FBC Jax has issued trespass papers against their adulterers, even the FBC Jax deacon convicted of child molestation a few years ago - was he trespassed? Was his wife?
Below is a quote from Timmy Brister, SBC blogger. I agree with him, but maybe some FBC Jax leaders could learn something from what Timmy is calling for in the SBC. There are things going on in the Mac Brunson tenure at FBC Jax that just need to be explained:
ReplyDelete"Here’s the bottom line. God is doing some great things in the SBC, and riding the huge momentum gained at the SBC Louisville convention, we need to bring closure to the situation with Clark Logan and demand accountability for the words and actions by Morris Chapman. Neither silence nor the mere passing of time is going to cover up what has transpired over the past couple of months, and Southern Baptists need to make their voices heard for the sake of moving forward together with a unified commitment toward the Great Commission."
This post is very interesting and revealing of SBC practices.
ReplyDelete1. In SBC Churches, pedophiles and sexual abusers are given lot of tolerance and possibly coddled, and rarely disciplined. And rarely given trespass warning and criminal complaints filed against them with the police.
2. There should never have been trespass warnings given for either Tom or Yvette. Are either of them a disruption inside the Church? I understand Watchdog hoped that someday maybe even 100 people will stand up during Mac's sermon and boo or question Mac as they did to Marc Cummins at FBC Ocala. Is this the reason they banned both Tom and Yvette? That they are inciters of riots inside a church? I have never heard this reasoning being used. Even if they are Church Disciplined and expelled from Church Membership (which they left of their own accord, but the Church felt "compelled" to act for their own sweet revenge purposes), they are to be treated as pagans who are waiting to be evangelized and rescued. That is they should not be forbidden to sit and hear the gospel being preached. That is they should not be prohibited from attending church. What Mac, Soud and et al did was unbiblical and profoundly anti-christian. They have behaved like thugs and goons. Instead of personifying Christ in their actions.
3. About escorting a person from their office premises, as was presumably done to Logan, is only done in the business world if they are prone to be a threat to the business, of their disrupting their operation by either sabotaging computers or talking to office workers and spreading rumors. But in the world of modern technology this is so old fashioned. All it is doing is sending a message to current workers to toe the line or be fired like wise and of course to humiliate the person being fired.
4. I have come to the sad conclusion that in most SBC Churches, if you have been abused by the Clergy, then you will have no one to speak on your behalf. You will be kicked out of the Church for just asking questions, let alone fight for justice and to right the wrongs. The existing Leadership is their only to protect the money flow, the status quo, leaders position, jobs and status. The people who are abused, they don't care a damn. No support what so ever.
Is this what Christ died for? So business organization can run and sustain themselves on His Sacrifice!
Come Lord, come quickly.
I find it rather amusing that you would bring up Hunt and his not even meeting with Chapman personally but resorting to Twitter and other internet engines. You (like Hunt) never had the integrity to meet with Mac personally but vented your personal feelings on an anonymous blog.
ReplyDeleteYou are always calling for openness and transparency but aren't you the one with the anonymous blog (until you were outed) and also got caught lying on the Baptist Life site until you were outed there. Your calls sure have a hollow ring.
Then you always top it off by saying Mac needs to repent and humble himself. Sounds to me like it all needs to start with you--and then maybe Mac will follow your lead. Remember, you are the one who started this with the anonymous blog.
Perhaps noone is standing up for your wife because they know you are guilty as sin and they don't want to be associated with your family.
ReplyDeleteYou should have thought about the consequences for your family before you started your anonymous blog.
Anon 8:49 am.
ReplyDeleteYou have bought the lies put out by Mac and the leadership of FBC Jax. Go back and read the entirety of the blog, available on line. In it you will find that the blogger did try to meet with Mac without success, did address questions before blogging, and did agree to meet under reasonable, non-kangaroo court conditions -- accompanied by his spouse and an ally, going into a meeting with a hostile group of six people on their turf. Doing that alone is asking for whatever was said to be totally misrepresented. And he asked for and was denied a copy of the bylaws.
Koolaid is a mild term for what you have taken in. Believing the lies has polluted your mind.
The "resignation" (firing) of Logan is an interesting matter that, in my opinion, should be looked into by the Executive Committee.
ReplyDeleteI have appreciated Dr. Chapman for many years, and believe that he brought some good changes to the EC operations early on.
In these later years, I have become concerned about some trends and issues.
I do not care for "ministry" initiatives run out of the EC. The first one was a "family" initiative. More recently we have EKG.
These are good ministries, but I do not believe the EC's job is to do this. They should run the cooperative program. Collect the money and send it out.
I know that Dr. Chapman was a pastor before coming to the EC, but his pastoral gifts and history aside, he is not "the SBC's pastor." He is, essentially, "the SBC's banker."
I have heard that Dr. Chapman has hired his son to do a computer-oriented job that he is only mildly qualified to do.
Dr. C is getting older, and his age has been showing in recent years. Am I the only one who has noticed in the last couple of years that Dr. C slurs when he speaks? I have wondered, frankly, if he is on some sort of medication. I could be way off base here, but that is a concern.
Dr. C has also, in my opinion, taken positions that were not really the job of the EC. One was defining "CP" giving as ONLY giving that comes through the state conventions. Well, several churches (including my own) give money directly to the EC. But that's not counted as "CP" giving, so our church looks as though we don't give as much as we do.
The other issue was Dr. C's lobbying against the GCR. I am not a huge GCR fan. But it is not the job of the EC to get in that battle.
I heard after the convention that Dr. C was "purple fit" angry about the passage of the GCR. That may explain Johnny Hunt's reaction to him. At any rate, it is not the EC's job collectively, or Dr. C's job as a lone ranger, to try and stop the GCR.
I am fearful that Logan's "resignation" was a payback or preventing of any possible leak to the GCR people. I don't know that to be true, but if it is, it indicates a sort of paranoia on the part of Dr. C.
What I am concerned about is an autocratically run EC, without oversight by the trustees of the EC. A 5 minute phone call, with no explanation of what Logan did (apparently), and all of these other issues that I see cause me concern.
I hope that the EC will look into this carefully. It's really not about Logan for me. It's about my concern that the central organization of the SBC is not being run as someone's personal fiefdom, or by someone who has personal or medical issues that might affect his personality or performance.
Louis
Remember, you are the one who started this with the anonymous blog.
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 8:49 AM
AND YOU SIR, need to remember that
the U.S. Constitution Amendment 1 states that we the people have
". . . .freedom of speech and (we) the people have rights to peaceably assemble on a blog and sign on anonymous.
Hunt seems to think what Mac has done is ok because Mac is promoted within the SBC to preach to pastors.
ReplyDeleteYet, Chapman is bad for what he did. And Hunt is calling for an explanation.
Welcome to SBC politics where WHO you are has more to do with it than intergrity and truth.
Right now Chapman is thorn in their side but he also has power.
This situation also proves why the Trustees of our entities are a big joke. And everyone knows it. They are rubber stamp people. They have no clue what is going on except what their 'charge' tell them.
Mary Kenney pointed this out in her book with examples.
Remember, you are the one who started this with the anonymous blog.
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 8:49 AM
You mean we should not expect such a great man of God like Mac to model Christlike behavior first? The sheep must do it first?
Then why pay him the big bucks? What is he at FBCJax to do?
Hi watchdog,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say that I have agreed with you about starting this blog and holding First Baptist Church of Jacksonville accountable for the wrongs they have commited. You have done your job. You have exposed what Mac, his trustees and the JSO have illegally done to you and your wife. I believe now is the time to shut this blog down (i know you have heard this plenty of times). The Bible says in John 3:20, "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." In Luke 12, the Bible says, "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known." You, watchdog, have been the one chosen by God to expose these wrongdoings in the church. Since you have already done your job, stop the blog now, drop the lawsuit and let God finish what He wants to finish. Put it in His hands now, let Him deal with FBC Jax and you will be blessed. =)
Since you have already done your job, stop the blog now, drop the lawsuit and let God finish what He wants to finish. Put it in His hands now, let Him deal with FBC Jax and you will be blessed. =)
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 1:17 PM
Then why were the Epistles written?
Note that when Louis does not like someone, he can be just as viscious as those he defends who are viscious.
ReplyDeleteWhen bad cop stops working to get the blog shut down, try good cop. Ever so sympathetic.
ReplyDeleteMr. Rich, I certainly hope you will not shut down this blog., or drop your lawsuit!!! It is time these "high and mighty" men answer for what they do. They ride rough shod over people and ruin their worship experience with their lies knowing that others will follow their lead and shun you. They have the audacity to call themselves "pastors" and regularly do in the members that are not "most favored" for one reason or another. I for won am rooting for you to win this one. I think these men must be taught a lesson that they cannot trample over people and not answer for it in a court of law. I will feel some vendication on this matter if you win. So this lawsuit is for "many of us" who have been destroyed in churches for no reason other than getting on the "wrong side" of the preacher no matter how innocently it was done. You asked where were the SS. teachers and members to come to the aid of your wife. Well, they are where their husbands are. Where the leadership is, where the director, the staff (some), where the deacons, and some parts of the kool aid drinking members are. They are following the LEADERS. Why (?), because they want to keep their prideful places, their "friends", their "good standing in the social circle". Many have settled for a mess of pottage. Maybe your lawsuit will wake some up, and they will see that people can't be treated like rubbish and thrown on the trash pile. Maybe some will even "GET SAVED".
ReplyDeleteI hope you don't shut down the blog or stop the law suit. I notice some are calling for you this action to drop the suit. Couldn't be that they are starting to panic is it?
ReplyDeleteYou should have thought about the consequences for your family before you started your anonymous blog.
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 8:52 AM
_______________________________
Anon 8:52 - there should NOT have been any consequences for merely expressing his opinions and critisms. Why should an American citizen have to "think about the consequences" to his family for criticizing his pastor?
Is it a given that if you criticize the leadership you and your family will pay a high price? That, my friend, is bullying and intimidation, and eventually you will bully the wrong man.
Anon 8:52am.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it strange that you take a position unlike Jesus. Jesus sat with the woman at the well. Jesus ate with sinners. Jesus told those who would have thrown the first stone what they were hiding when he wrote on the ground. You, sir, need to go back and read your Bible. Your charity is amazing!!!
Requesting this blog to be shut down is nonsense as it's been very educational with a lot of proven facts - a lot of wisom has been presented in this blog!
ReplyDeleteSOME blog with anger and with a lot of animosity, SOME blog with serenity and kindness. SOME are evil and SOME are good, which is the majority of WD bloggers.
If you don't like the blog then take your own advice as you don't have to read it - you can shut it down on your end.
I'm a believer in what you start, you finish!
In Jerusalem the mobs couldn't shut down the disciples love for Jesus. Then Rome tried to shut them down. Then it moved to Europe and it kept growing. Then it moved to North and South America and it continues to grow. No, you can't shut it down. The Word grew and continues to grow. It once was on stone tablets but now is in our hearts. There is nothing that is big enough or strong enough to stop it.
ReplyDeleteWhen Tom got so irked over Mac and his actions he should have IMMEDIATELY gone into his office and met with him personally. No anonymous blogs and no denying who he was. If he actually was the devoted member of FBC, Jax that he claims to be, then Mac would have gladly met with him.
ReplyDeleteTo now say that Tom tried to meet with Mac is basically a lie. Tom only came out into the open after he was outed and then wanted to meet with Mac. There's a huge difference there.
And for those of you who hate all mega church pastors--if you think Mac is bad, then you don't know Hunt personally. You might be getting a better deal than you think. The sad thing is that even Jesus would not satisfy most of you and your unrealistic expectations.
Nothing is fact until proven in a court of law!
ReplyDeleteAnon:
ReplyDeleteI have tried to be vicious.
I have just expressed my opinions based on info that I know. I like the personalities very much in many ways. I do, however, want to make sure that the EC trustees and officers are doing their job of oversight.
If anything I have said is perceived by you to be "vicious", it is not meant to be, and I am sorry that I gave you that impression. I will try to do better on my writing in the future.
I am usually accused of supporting everything the SBC does. Now, I express concerns in one area, and all I call for is for the trustees to make sure they are looking into these things, and now I am "vicious."
Isn't there a happy middle ground here? Somehwere?
If there is in your mind, I would like to know where it is, so that in the future I can express myself in a way that communicates accurately.
I perceive that you may just like to argue for the sake of it. But I am truly hopeful that you can better stake out the middle ground for me, and I'll be glad to follow.
I would, as sad as it might seem, be pleased to hear that the trustees looked into this carefully and found that Mr. Logan should have been let go for sufficient reason. But Hunt's expressed concerns give me concern also, especially in light of some of the thoughts and issues I had already been wrestling with.
Thanks.
Louis
I think this is interesting. I think WD that it's time for you to hang up your hat.
ReplyDeleteDo I agree with every little thing going on at FBC? No. Jim Smyrl is trying to write a book called, "Theology Driven Ministry".
Do I think that's acceptable? Not at all. Do I think funding an Academy in a city that has multiple Excellent Private Schools is acceptable? No - Especially during a recession when giving is automatically down.
Do I think that funding not only an academy but a South Campus in a recession shows fiscal responsibility... no.
Do I think hiring your son, wife, special assistant from Dallas and make her husband over missions at FBC is acceptable No. Especially when missions went from nothing to being the only thing funded. Absolutely Not.
Are there valid points on this blog? Sure... but you're no longer a member at FBC Jax and now the blog is focusing more on other things than what it should or was originally created for. Situations are being twisted (like the Johnny Hunt vs. Morris Chapman Saga) to compare and contrast how you have been victimized against a church where you're no longer a member or to discuss things like Mac Brunson's Message at the SBC Pastor's Conference, when you weren't even there. You didn't hear any other messages from the Pastor's Conference or you would've blogged about what other Pastor's said. Church Bullies are killing our churches, sometimes, it's people upset at music, administration, operations, etc... BUT God reigns supreme and here's the thing, if you don't agree, don't fight or get upset, leave move on. God isn't a God of Law Suits.
Go ahead a file a law suit but what is that going to fix? Ministry isn't easy, but you attacking ONE MAN that you don't agree with is over. You're nothing special, you're not the first to attack a Pastor for not agreeing with them. You're not the first to publicly embarrass a church and a pastor for nothing other than self glory... An y Minister knows that attacks like this are personal... Do you really think this is the word of the Lord for you? Do you think God has ordained you do leave a church and still fight people that you should leave alone?
"When Tom got so irked over Mac and his actions he should have IMMEDIATELY gone into his office and met with him personally."
ReplyDeleteI am afraid I had to laugh out loud when I read this one.
Matt
Do you think God has ordained you do leave a church and still fight people that you should leave alone?
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 6:48 PM
We have a duty to warn of false teachers, wolves and hirlings. It is sad that you do not see that is what you are following.
We have a duty to warn of false teachers, wolves and hirelings. It is sad that you do not see that is what you are following.
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 7:27 PM
I don't agree with Mac Brunson. Did you read the first part of my post? I don't follow Him nor do I believe everything he's done is right... but I also know he's imperfect just like you and me. Prove to me in scripture where you should do more than warn, which is what this blog has become? Prove to me in scripture where you should be bitter and upset and hold onto things after you've left situations and churches. Bitter church members need to go to the scriptures, Paul makes this clear to us in Acts 8:21-23...
"You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
Basically, If your heart is not right and if you're upset and bitter... MOVE ON. It's not helping you or the church. Mac Brunson is human, he's done things that aren't right, but guess what? so have we. There's no reason for us to be critical and not look at ourselves.
To now say that Tom tried to meet with Mac is basically a lie. Tom only came out into the open after he was outed and then wanted to meet with Mac. There's a huge difference there.
ReplyDelete___________________________________
Tom chose to use emails and blogs to make his concerns known. He did not HAVE to meet with Mac on Mac's terms, or yours. Period. Get over it. Then, once Tom was outted, he did try and meet with the discipline committee, deacons, and Mac Brunson, but they did not allow it unless it was totally under their terms and conditions, and Mac just ignored any offers to do so. Besides, this is way beyond being an issue now, it is so far in the past. The current situation is that they still won't tell the truth in their press releases, they still won't contact Tom according to Matthew 18, and they still won't give an inch when it comes to addressing any of his concerns. And they still have trespass warnings against his wife and they still are slandering and defaming and scorning Tom and his family. This is vindictiveness stubbornness and arrogance on their part which has gotten them to this place. Tom's refusal to just go away in the face of it all is what has gotten him here.
I don't blame Tom. I blame them. So on we go. In other words, they say we will do whatever we want and if you question it we will aggressively confront you, slander you, harm you and your family and that way you will let it go. Wrong. They played hardball with the wrong dude.
jbleon 6:48 PM
ReplyDelete"You're not the first to publicly embarrass a church and a pastor for nothing other than self glory..."
Watchdog publicly embarrassing a church and a pastor for nothing other than self glory? I think not. It's Mac Brunson and his "team" that are publicly embarassing the church and chasing the self glory.
They played hardball with the wrong dude.
ReplyDeleteSometime, when one is pushed too far, even though a person is weak, the only alternative is to fight back and to seek justice. As is this young lady is doing here.
To all those commentators who are saying WD should have contacted Mac, WD should quit the blog, WD should drop the law suits ... It is too late for all that.
WD will have his day in the courts. Let us pray that God will give him wisdom to combat all those expensive lawyers to be fielded by Mac, Soud and et al at Fbc Jax. I am sure they will fight tooth and nail. Possibly counter suing Watchdog.
I am sure Watchdog has taken all this into consideration with his attorney. Let us see how all this unfolds.
Mac Brunson is human, he's done things that aren't right, but guess what? so have we. There's no reason for us to be critical and not look at ourselves.
ReplyDeleteJuly 26, 2009 7:41 PM
Just how far are you willing to take this 'just human' doctrine? When does being a 'new creation' kick in? Repentance? Humility...For the pastor, who is to model such things for the sheep?
If all believers are just to remain human and not spiritual with the Holy Spiriut indwelling and that means they sin consistently and willfully knowing the truth then there was NO sacrifice. Hebrews 10:26-31
I suggest reading 1 John in it's entirity. You have been mislead.
It is amazing how little Christlikeness you expect from a pastor. If he is like an unbeliever in behavior then why pay him so much to continue in that vein?
What on earth are they teaching at FBCJax? Seeker doctrine?
I suggest reading 1 John in it's entirity. You have been mislead.
ReplyDeleteFor all Watchdog readers, who wish to listen to sermons that are expositional verse by verse ... Please listen to Pastor Wade Burleson, of Emmanuel Baptist Church, Enid, OK.
The Series I John: The Christian and Complete Joy. You can also watch the video, of the sermons (this includes the whole service).
Anon: - 7:41
ReplyDelete"You're nothing special, you're not the first to attack a Pastor for not agreeing with them. You're not the first to publicly embarrass a church"
Mmmmm!
So you think it was alright for the leadership to publicly embarass a (former) member on front page headlines of the Florida Times Union.
As for anyone wanting a meeting. They are "spooked" and wouldn't ask for a meeeting - Members know that our member report "profile" is presented to the Senior Pastor prior to a meeting with him and we are "pre-judged" on outreach (Yes, I invited ____, Number of contacts/cards/calls_____, Visitation_____, Tither_____!
Members like myself have sent emails - no replys as the Sr. Pastor claims he receives thousands from all over the world, he's just to busy to respond to all of us (Vines & Lindsay never failed to respond to their notes or emails via sec if did not have the personal time, but that was seldom, as the members of Jacksonville were their 1st priority - they cared!
Members see the Sr Pastor more as a as a traveling evangelist - absent more than present. June it was Kentucky, vacation, Germany today, another Mission Trip.
But give the Senior Pastor credit, as he did say from the pulpit "he preaches for free, we pay him to go to meetings"!
You are the one that should MOVE ON.
Anon 8:59 pm:
ReplyDelete"But give the Senior Pastor credit, as he did say from the pulpit "he preaches for free, we pay him to go to meetings"! "
The members of FBC Jax did not hire someone to go to meetings. We could have gotten an experienced MBA to do that for a lot less...someone who is actually trained in business and administration. In fact, Mac has acknowledged he is not that great at admin. I understand that John Blount and others are doing more administration than originally planned for so, 'good question' why are we paying Dr Brunson so much?
I belive the people of FBC Jax wanted a Bible-Preaching, God-Fearing, Humble Pastor who loves people and enjoys staying around FBC ministering to the flock. Yes, that's the main thing we wanted and still need!
Anon 8:43PM - Hebrews 10:18-25 read the passage before the one you quoted. Heard of grace? Heard of being washed in the blood? Drawing near to God... Not worrying about how difficult we've made church and have made these type situations. And for 1 John... "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7 God's forgiven all of us, no one is perfect. Mac Brunson made a mistake and yes, he's done wrong things, but the WD has as well. No one's perfect... period. Even you.
ReplyDeleteAnon. 8:59 - You're right... Dr. Vines and Dr. Lindsay used Secretaries. I tried many times to meet with Dr. Vines or send him notes with no response. I have e-mailed Dr. Brunson and received responses back each time. I've been by his office and been able to speak with him personally. Now, I don't agree with many of his new policies and programs (see my first post on this comment board). Dr. Vines would travel quite often as well, He went to the SBC every year, just like Dr. Brunson. He also took some pretty extensive vacations and always went with Maurice Templeton on his cruises and what not... so Dr. Vines travel to. Dr. Vines went on cruises - with the wealthy to preach. Dr. Brunson goes to Germany and preaches at a German Seminary... If you're unhappy as a church member... why not go somewhere else? Why stay under a pastor that you're not happy with? Just wondering... Would love a response.
Why should any of them met with Tom when he continued to lie about being the watchdog. Yes I know he may not have said I am not the watchdog but even on this Blog which we now know is his blog he did not admit to being the watchdog until it became public knowledge in the paper. So yes I call what he did a lie even if it was only a lie of omission. STILL A LIE OF NOT OWNING UP TO WHAT HE WAS AND WHO HE WAS.
ReplyDeleteAllen said the following a few threads back:
ReplyDelete"Dr. Brunson said it best today: presecution, intimidation and false accusations are all signs you are doing the Lord's work. We should expect to deal with nameless, faceless people and should appreciate their futile attempts, such as the majority of the negative posts on this blog."
That is dangerous, fundamentalist nonsense.
Because Mac is no longer dealing with nameless, faceless people, for one thing. He is dealing with facts in the newspaper about his actions, and about his words, and things his church may have done that are wrong.
Sure, Christians are persecuted for doing good.
But that a person is being "persecuted" is not proof positive that they are doing God's will. That argument was made by Gilyard and Gray. Hey, everybody, I'm being attacked and accused, and slandered...this means I'm closer to God than EVER before!! Halleluja, praise the Lord!
So I just reject that, and its sad that a pastor has to use that baloney as a defense for high-profile issues that he and his church are being dragged into, instead of dealing with the matters at hand in a very open, straight-forward manner to his congregation.
Dr. Brunson said it best today: presecution, intimidation and false accusations are all signs you are doing the Lord's work.
ReplyDeleteThe above is a logical fallacy.
"For those leaders who set the pace of religion and determine its content and quality, Christianity has become of late remarkably lucrative. The streets of gold do not have too great an appeal for those who find it so easy to pile up gold and silver in the service of the Lord here on earth"
ReplyDelete- A.W. Tozer
"Why should any of them met with Tom when he continued to lie about being the watchdog."
ReplyDeleteBecause they are Christian leaders modeling Jesus Christ. Mac, especially, is being paid handsomely to do so.
Instead, he is modeling the Corleone brothers.
Dr. Brunson said it best today: presecution, intimidation and false accusations are all signs you are doing the Lord's work.
ReplyDeleteThe above is a logical fallacy.
July 26, 2009 10:32 PM
That is correct, Thy Peace. It is a serious matter to uter such words because they have not faced true persecution and in saying such mocks our brothers and sisters around the world who do face torture and imprisonment for even meeting with the Body or owning a bible.
I heard such ridiculous claims many times from several mega church pastors if even a hint of negative press came their way. They are so surrounded by admirers and yes men they cannot see themselves clearly. It comes from being in the limelight too long and being isolated from real world every day pressures.
It also garners support from the followers and makes them feel persecuted, too so they rally around the leaders. In other words, such ridiculous illogical words, work.
How would Mac handle real persecution?
Matt
" 1 John 1:7 God's forgiven all of us, no one is perfect. Mac Brunson made a mistake and yes, he's done wrong things, but the WD has as well. No one's perfect... period. Even you."
ReplyDeleteMaking a mistake is hitting the wrong key while typing. Or spilling the milk.
Planned, premeditated wrong behavior or actions are willful sin. If consistent, then willful consistent sin which means there was no sacrfice.
If you think Grace is a license to sin, then you should sin some more, right? Or make more 'mistakes' as you call sin. But wait, Paul wrote about that very thinking in Romans. And he says that is wrong thinking.
Here is a summation of 1 John 5:
18We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.
You are not alone in your wrong beliefs about sin being mistakes and that it is just peachy keen to keep on sinning.
Most of American Christendom thinks like you. That is why the church looks much like the world. They think that Jesus Christ hung on the Cross so we could continue in willful, consistent sin and still go to heaven to be with Christ. They should study Matthew 7 carefully because that passage is talking about 'professing believers'
As a matter of fact, Matthew 5 describes what a believer looks like. But, it is not so glamorous a picture as a mega church celebrity pastor.
How could I be perfect when I still have sinful thoughts? You see, Jesus raised the bar from the Law. From adultery to lust. From murder to hate. It is now about the heart. So, when our behavior (actions) are consistently and willfully sinful, we should be concerned if we are truly saved.
I realize they do not teach this in most churches. They would empty and who would pay the salaries then?
I am still vascillating between laughing and throwing up after reading your comments on Baptist Life today. You actually have the unmitigated gall to go on there and chastise people for not going to meet personally with Chapman before posting on the internet!
ReplyDeleteI truly have never read anything that convinces me more that Mac was right when he called you a sociopath.
Glad I got your day started with a laugh! Too bad you can't see the point.
ReplyDeleteMy point is this: one of the criticisms of this particular blog is: how can one criticize Mac Brunson, or call for accountability, or demand that he answer questions, when one hasn't gone FIRST and sat down in his office to ask him those questions.
If that is a valid criticism, then perhaps the pastors around the SBC that are publicly laying into Morris Chapman, criticizing him now not just for his Logan firing, but now about his spending, about his trustees, etc...they are doing it publicly, on the Internet - then perhaps they should speak to Morris Chapman to get answers to their questions.
Some of the same people who have criticized me for daring to blog about Mac Brunson are now blogging and Twittering and accusing and attacking Morris Chapman. Its OK for them to do it though, because he has crossed the powers in the SBC. He dared get crossways with Johnny Hunt, and he dared oppose the GCR, and so now its open season on Morris Chapman; on the Internet.
Again, shows the damage of true slander and defamation:
ReplyDelete"I truly have never read anything that convinces me more that Mac was right when he called you a sociopath."
Thanks Anon.
Anon 9:58 pm.
ReplyDelete... If you're unhappy as a church member... why not go somewhere else? Why stay under a pastor that you're not happy with? Just wondering... Would love a response.
July 26, 2009 9:58 PM
===================================
RESPONSE:
DID I SAY I WAS "UNHAPPY"!
I do not go to FBCJ for just the man in the "pulpit . . . . (good thing as his attendance is poor) besides, many don't believe the Sr. Pastor will be at FBC for long term. I was there before him and will probably be there afterwards.
No, I'm not "UNHAPPY" as I have lots of supporting friends and fellowship who are faithfully serving - happiness does not come from the one who stands on the stage but from the body of Christ serviving "behind the scenes".
YOU I BELIEVE are one of the lobbiest campaigning for this blog to be shut down as well as well as requesting (WE) members who share on it to MOVE ON.
Question in return is "If you're unhappy with what is said on this blog"... "why do you come on and read the blog that you're not happy with? Just wondering...? NO RESPONSE NEEDED! I'm a working professional individual who has to get beck to my "real job"! Have a good day!
This will be an interesting year till the next SBC Convention. Since Pastor Wade decided not to engage in SBC Politics for this year, everyone but him is doing/talking SBC Politics. Granted Pastor Wade's theology might be enough to give pause to lot of readers, but at least it makes you ask questions and think. And this year will prove that Pastor Wade is not the problem in SBC, as many were pointing accusing fingers at him, saying but for him everything would peachy keen in SBC. Now who is laughing. To borrow Mac'ism .... Ha!
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have a compilation of all the Mac'ism(s) ? It would be nice to have one, so we can all reference to it. Or better yet, can someone do a Wikipedia post on it? Just a thought.
ReplyDeletesounds like a great job for you, TP
ReplyDeleteMost everything that comes out of the mouths of macker backers are fallacies. Esp. the red herring about "oh you 'lied' about being the WD" and the other beaten-down one about "oh you didn't go to him personally."
ReplyDeleteFunny (not) that the only thing Macker backers can repeat ad nauseum are these two fallacies. Clearly they've got nothing. Certainly they haven't answered EVEN ONE legitimate question posed on this blog. Furthermore, most macker backers are family members or paid staff anyway. What else would they do? Jump off the gravy train?!?
Response to not unhappy 8:09: Loved your comments, hope you are right in saying the pastor may not be long term here. Hope he moves on somewhere else, and do you think he could possibly take the "leadership" with him. Would love for this church to get back to what it was...a church thats mission was getting people saved and professing Jesus Christ as it's reason for being.
ReplyDelete"Hope he moves on somewhere else, and do you think he could possibly take the "leadership" with him."
ReplyDeleteWhy would you want to do that to another church? Isn't that what FBC Dallas did to you at FBC Jax?
Mac needs to get out of ministry to save his soul. It is a career for him...empire building
Whoever comes in behind Mac needs to do a complete housecleaning. No way the church can function in harmony with John Blount, Kevin King, Jim Smyrl and the other Mac hatchet men. They have lost all credibility and integrity by their words, actions and involvement in this regime. We now know how they view the sheep, how they treat the sheep, and their only motive for "serving." They have all been exposed. Yet no land gifts for them, no children on staff for them, no book deals or preaching gigs for them, no paid position for their wives. No, they sold out cheap. Wonder what it is like working for Maurilio....
ReplyDeleteLet's see if I get this right.
ReplyDeleteSBC pastors are not to blog and criticize (anonymous or not) anyone in authority without first going in to meet with them?
If you actually believe that then you are indeed the chief of all hypocrites.
I hate to disappoint some of you folks but Vines is never coming back (not that you would want him) and Lindsey is in Heaven so your church will never be like it used to be.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that you have all made a mess out of what you have. I guess you'll actually have to trust Jesus to clean up His bride. I honestly think He will do a better job than some of you are trying to do and I'm fairly certain that He won't be using a blog or a courtroom.
Anon 11:52 - wow, I'm surprised my point is missed:
ReplyDeleteOf course Johnny Hunt and any other pastor out there that believes Morris Chapman is not being open and transparent about ANY matter that is of concern to them - like the firing of Logan - they have a right and a duty to request that Chapman give information!
I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of some who denounce blogs critical of pastors - using the argument "just go in and talk with him, you're a coward for blogging instead of going in face to face."
Morris Chapman is accountable to Hunt and any SBC pastor whose church gives money to the CP.
And if a pastor wants to blog about it, Twitter it, Facebook it, or call Morris, or write a letter to Morris, or show up at the EC office - they have a right to call for Morris to be open and transparent, and they should have their questions answered by Morris.
I couldn't say it any better than Johnny Hunt did here:
""Twitter is serving well as a place to hear the concerns of SBC friends all across the country as well as an opportunity to let them know that what concerns them concerns me as well. When we show a lack of concern for their honest questions, it serves as our way of showing our lack of concern for them."
Amen, Brother Hunt. THAT is the point.
The simple point being, when all the conservatives and republicans have problems with Obama, they are not shy in criticizing him publicly and openly. Do they go to meet him one on one? He is technically a Christian, even if you do not believe it. Watchdog has a very good point here.
ReplyDeleteObama, Christian? Now that's funny!!!!!!
ReplyDeletePlease add the follow this blog opinion, I would like to follow your blog
ReplyDeleteYour statement, "Morris Chapman is accountable to Hunt and any SBC pastor whose church gives money to the SBC" tells me a lot. There are financial reports that are made public and available to all but as far as Morris Chapman being "accountable" to some pastor in podunckhollow, that's just garbage. He answers to the Executive Committee.
ReplyDeleteHe answers to the Executive Committee.
ReplyDeleteJuly 27, 2009 3:15 PM
Yeah, the trustees who rubber stamp everything. As do Mohler's, Patterson's, Akin's, etc.
Now, how are trustees chosen? That is the real problem.
But real accountability ultimately comes from those who pay the salaries of those running our entities. Why do you think there is a GCR? They need to rally the troops. Otherwise, why would true believers need a 'resurgance' for missions?
isselAnon 11:55...This church needs a true PASTOR. I don't think it is looking for a former preacher nor is it completely happy with the current occupant. And I also don't believe you know what Jesus should or would do. Courts are man made but God sometimes uses them, when men are at odds with each other. People do swear UNDER OATH in a court of law. Plus God gave LAWS to man first. Through Moses if you recall. We now need the healing hand of Jesus on this church that has been so used and abused. Hopefully that would come in the form of a "true pastor".
ReplyDeleteHopefully that would come in the form of a "true pastor".
ReplyDeleteJuly 27, 2009 3:59 PM
I praise you for your sentiments here. I do want to point out that seeking a 'true pastor' is not biblical. That is similar to Israel begging God for a king when God said, I am your King. But He gave them a king. Be careful what you pray for. They displeased God by asking for a king.
Jesus Christ is the Shepherd of the Body. And in a true Body of Christ, the Holy Spirit is indwelling in every member no matter the maturity level. Those more spiritually mature take on the functions of pastor, elder, teacher, etc. But the goal is that others become more spiritually mature and we go on to plant other churches.
Unfortuantly, the function of pastor has been elevated by man's traditions to be something it is not biblically. We have made it into a king of sorts. And professing Christians seek another better king. That is not biblical.
The Body of Christ is the Body of Christand functions as a Body of Christ. These institutions have little to do it.
My point is stop waiting for a new king. Study to show yourself approved and get busy within the true Body of Christ. You, through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, might be able to 'pastor' someone.
Matt
Mastt: I do wish you would stop twisting what is said. If churches are not to expect "true pastors" what are they there for. They certainly don't want untrue pastors as many now have. You assume that others do not study, read, or even comprehend any part of their Bibles. As a matter of fact I have been a Bible student for many years. And I might add we had a true pastor in Dr's Lindsay and Jr., for over 60 years. Thank you!
ReplyDelete"Let's see if I get this right.
ReplyDeleteSBC pastors are not to blog and criticize (anonymous or not) anyone in authority without first going in to meet with them?
If you actually believe that then you are indeed the chief of all hypocrites"
Sorry to laugh, Anon 11:52, but some people can't see a point if it's about to hit them in the eye. Reminds me of all the "blonde" jokes!
Try harder.
You assume that others do not study, read, or even comprehend any part of their Bibles. As a matter of fact I have been a Bible student for many years. And I might add we had a true pastor in Dr's Lindsay and Jr., for over 60 years. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteJuly 27, 2009 6:36 PM
Why do you assume a body of Christ has one pastor? Can you show me scriptural evidence for this? Pastor is mentioned once in the NT. It is ONE of many gifts and is not reserved for ONE person in the Body.
Matt
I think what Matt is saying is, in the times of the new testament, of the days of Paul and Timothy ... There was not a single pastor preaching week in and week out. There were multiple members of the body who were edifying the body with their words.
ReplyDeleteI sometime get that from the comments of Matt, It Is Written or Bro./Pastor Rod H. and Lydia's comments in this blog, when they speak on the scriptures. Similarly in Pastor Wade's blog, there are commenters, and I normally slow down when I read their comments. For I want to grasp what they are saying and not rush over.
To me that is edifying the body. Either in person in a Church, or on a blog. We are of the same body.
So the closest we can come to this is by electronic means :-) Listen to different sermons from different people and also listen to people in the blogs. Of course, you have to discern that the speakers or commentators are speaking The Truth and preaching The Gospel and The Word.
Anon 11:52 reminds me of Emily Litella. Reading comprehension is a huge problem in this country.
ReplyDeleteMatt: There are many pastors all over the WORLD. One pastor could not handle the six billion people on earth if that is your belief. Thats also why there are very many churches which people can choose to attend. Different denominations probably 100 or more. They have their own set of beliefs and ideas as to how to worship and carry out the great commission which is the purpose of a church. It is strange indeed that you do not recognize that all churches have a pastor whether he/she be Sr Pastor or Pastor from the biggest church to the smallest church the local body has one in charge. The deacon body or elders nominate one and the body of believers vote him/her in as pastor. Its that simple. Just read the yellow pages or drive by any church and you will see a glass cabinet normally evidencing a pastor and giving their name.
ReplyDeleteI wish your statement concerning spiritual maturity was true since some pastors are less spiritual than some of their members. Some teachers are better teachers than the pastor within their congregation, the pastors just hold the title.
Its very simple. Each body of believers have their own deacons, teachers and pastors. Its the New Testament. Just observe what is going on in the WORLD. Unless you believe the world is imaginary!!! Its not unbiblical. The fact is that many churces were planted by a traveling preacher in years gone by. Its still going on in some areas of the world.
Thy Peace: We are 2000 years from Paul and Timothy. Things have changed. The Bible is progressive just like the church. It has grown from a handful to millions upon millions as in the Book of the Revelation "no man could number them".
Additionally, Pastor (singular) may only be in the Bible one time, however, Pastors (plural) is mentioned eight times beginning in Jer 2:8 and ending with Eph 4:11.
It is common knowledge that when one pastor dies or moves on another pastor takes the others place. Hence pastor one left and pastor two shows up. Hopefully, this helps to understand the difference between pastor and pastors and why there are so many of them. I have had the pleasure of meeting hundreds of them and most are good and faithful to their calling.
Matt: Did you read the original blog? I said this church needs a true pastor. You have gone off on a tangent claiming something totally unrelated to my comment!You said," be careful not to wish for a king"....and "why do you assume the body of Christ has one pastor". These are YOUR thoughts. My comment about wanting a true God called pastor for this church is totally unrelated to your "out there" comments. No one is wishing or looking for a king!!! Every church should desire a Godly pastor. No more no less. Your redundant remarks do not fit nor do they apply to my original statement. Please pontificate on another subject, as you are not relating to this one.
ReplyDelete"Matt: There are many pastors all over the WORLD. One pastor could not handle the six billion people on earth if that is your belief."
ReplyDeleteYou will have to excuse me as I have no idea where you are coming from. You seem to have my concern backwards..I would rather see 6 billion "pastors".
"It is strange indeed that you do not recognize that all churches have a pastor whether he/she be Sr Pastor or Pastor from the biggest church to the smallest church the local body has one in charge."
It is even worse than that! I do not think all churches are real churches.
"Just read the yellow pages or drive by any church and you will see a glass cabinet normally evidencing a pastor and giving their name."
Glass cases with 'pastor' memorabilia do not carry a lot of weight in the kingdom. It is called idolatry which is exactly what I have been talking about.
My point is that in any true body of Christ, which is not necessarily all the buildings we pass on the street with a steeple, there can be several with the gifting of shepherding...aka pastor. the bible does not even require a seminary education to be given that gift by the Holy Spirit nor to exercise that gift. Amazing!
My point is that many seem to view the function of pastor in the same way the Isrealites begged God for a king.
Matt
Every church should desire a Godly pastor. No more no less. Your redundant remarks do not fit nor do they apply to my original statement. Please pontificate on another subject, as you are not relating to this one.
ReplyDeleteJuly 27, 2009 10:50 PM
Can you name the one pastor of the church at Corinth? Philippi? Macedonia? Galatia?
If that function is so very important, then why aren't all the Epistles written to the pastor or elders? Why are the names of pastors not always mentioned?
There is a reason. Pastor is a spiritual gift that functions in the church. We assume by man made tradition that it is one pastor for each Body of Christ.
Matt
Matt: You are way out here on this thing of a pastor. Your idea is nowhere to be found. You are digging a deeper hole with every new statement you make. Give it up.
ReplyDeletePastor and King are entirely two different occupations. You are almost non-sensical in your thinking!!!
Hello Jack Leon,
ReplyDeleteI did not realize that you were back in Jax and didn't know you were back at FBCJ.
You gave us a long list of things you disagree on with Mac.
I have a question for you.
What is the reason or reasons for you staying under his leadership?
I am asking in all sincerity.
Readers: Here is a link showing the development plans for the empty lot next to the Children's building into a recreational space for the academy. Looks very nice.
ReplyDeleteYour idea is nowhere to be found. You are digging a deeper hole with every new statement you make. Give it up.
ReplyDeletePastor and King are entirely two different occupations. You are almost non-sensical in your thinking!!!
July 28, 2009 9:10 AM
I realize what I am saying shakes the very foundations of man made traditions that go back to 300AD.
I just humbly suggest you read the NT with the idea of one pastor for each meeting of the Body of Christ in mind. I think you will find our traditions look very little like the NT model. The Body is an organism not an organization. There are spiritual gifts for functioning not offices. (That word, office, was added by the translators)
As a matter of fact, man made traditions turned the gift of shepherding into an orator.
Again, it would help if you could list the names of pastors for all the NT churches mentioned in the Word.
Matt
Matt: Check out Titus chapter 1 vs 5 where Paul left Titus as the PASTOR.Check out Philemon chapter 1 vs 2 where Archippas was the pastor in his own house in Colossee. There are numerous pastors all mentioned by the Apostle Paul who ordained many of them in the New Testament. Most served in their own houses or the buildings adjoining their homes or nearby. You need to quit comparing Kings who hold earhly realms with Pastors who hold a spiritual office. They are indeed quite the opposite.
ReplyDeleteMatt, to use a word from one of the past blogs, your thinking is quite redundant. I realize we are not all as "deeply spiritual" and as all knowing as you and a couple of other "theologian" types on this blog, but believe me the Lord has been very gracious to many of us in giving understanding and spiritual discernment concerning His Word. As many of us ask and pray for it! I have read your past comments on different subjects and have agreed with many of them; However, this dissertation "just doesn't fit" the comments of my original blog!!!!! My blog., made a simple statement regarding a wish for the church (individual) to have a true, Godly, humble pastor in the pulpit. Period. It sounds like you have this king and tradition thought in your mind and have tried to apply it incorrectly to a simple blog., that stated NOTHING to do with your remarks. If you wish to make these statements, fine, but to apply them to a simple UNRELATED comment on a blog., is confusing, making statements out of context, and aggravating. I have never liked words being put in my mouth. Now, I know many of us are not the "deep thinker" and the spiritual giant that you are, but please stop trying to "force" an application where it doesn't apply, just to get the last word and to MAKE us agree with your comments. Your comments DO NOT apply to the original statement of the blog!!!! It sounds like you had (again) unrelated thoughts you wanted to express and used the blog., to do it. Your statements may stand on their OWN merit and be perfectly acceptable, but not in "relation" to my comments. As to telling me to read my NT as if I am so stupid that I just can't get it. Please do not talk "down" to me. We get enough of that in churchs. Thank you, I read my NT daily, and have for probably a period of time possibly, twice your age. I don't need your instructions, telling me how helpful your advice is. In other words don't "hi-jack" my statements and use them to make YOUR points. Thanks anyway.
ReplyDelete"Matt: Check out Titus chapter 1 vs 5 where Paul left Titus as the PASTOR"
ReplyDeleteGood example. There is one. But, Titus was there to deal with a situation and help others grow to be mature in the faith.( Read up on ancient Crete...not a nice place even the Jews were pagan!)
he was not going to stay thered as Paul called him to come to him Nicopolis.
.Check out Philemon chapter 1 vs 2 where Archippas was the pastor in his own house in Colossee."
Well, the Body MET in his home but the Epistle says nothing of his being a 'pastor'. You are assuming something from silence.
If meeting in one's home automatically means pastor then Lydia would be the pastor of the first church in Europe. But then, he might well have been given the gift of shepherding some in the Body that met in his home. We do not know.
"There are numerous pastors all mentioned by the Apostle Paul who ordained many of them in the New Testament."
Where do you see this 'ordinance' for pastors. Can you show me chapter and verse? I think there is a misunderstanding on this.
"ost served in their own houses or the buildings adjoining their homes or nearby. You need to quit comparing Kings who hold earhly realms with Pastors who hold a spiritual office. They are indeed quite the opposite"
There are no offices in the spiritual realm. That is a worldly tradition added to the Word by translators. The word office does not appear in the Greek ms.
But your thinking of it as an "office" does make it 'kingly', unfortuantly.
It is good to have these conversations. I hope you agree. We make too much of mere men when Christ is the one to be edified and lifted up.
"My blog., made a simple statement regarding a wish for the church (individual) to have a true, Godly, humble pastor in the pulpit."
ReplyDeleteAnd I am trying, very badly obviously, to get you to see that wanting a humble, Godly pastor in the pulpit is not scriptural if you are already a mature believer. You do need other mature believers but they ALL teach, preach, shepherd one another.
YOU might be a shepherd for others. God uses the weak to teach the strong. He does not need folks of noble birth.
And no where can I find a pulpit in the Word. As a matter of fact, check on this because more 'sermonizing' was done OUTSIDE the Body of Christ meeting!
I am trying to get folks to see that their paradigm of what constitutes a 'pastor' of the Body is very wrong. And it has led us to where we are: Many not growing spiritually past the man in the pulpit. This blog is proof of that...we see many using the same words and tactics of the 'pastor' they are learning from in the 'pulpit'. It is very dangerous concept to have ONE man preaching to the Body. In a mega church it is even more dangerous because you really do not know this man at all except what you see on stage.
1Corin 12-14 gives us a good model where most everyone is involved when we meet and using their spiritual gifts.
Matt
Matt: You are something else. Try as you may you are living in the third century. You got to get over it. Cars are not in the Bible but I bet you drive one. Got a stove, refrig, etc,etc. Give me a break. Steeples are not in the bible either, but most churches have them. You need to be more modern in your thinking. Go with the flow as it were.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your idea that it can be very dangerous for one man to be speaking to the body...Jim Jones, David Karish, Hale Bob Group, etc,etc. However, the good pastors even without s seminary degree that are truly called of the Lord cultivate, educate, give Godly advice, preach the Word, minister to the sick and downtrodden and spend most of their day looking after folks. They refuse to take missionary vacations, attend seminars and make excessive incomes. They don't waste their time writing books as they have the BIBLE which cannot be improved upon as their sword and guide. These are the "chosen" ones whether they meet in houses, lawns, or buildings.
Matt: You are right about one thing. Knowing anyone on the stage. That is also true of the man on the street, the person next to you on the plane, train, or bus. It also holds true of the person sitting next to you at work or ANYWHERE else you find them. All men are liars. Think about that remark. Have a nice day.
ReplyDeleteNext time you mention and praise Homer Lindsey on this blog, substitute the Name of Christ, instead. Maybe that will help you see where I am coming from.
ReplyDeletePraise Him instead of continually praising man. Lindsey would probably agree.
Cars have been a wonderful help to reach the lost. I am still trying to understand how the introduction of the pulpit has been good for the Body.
You are right, I do not know the man on the street or bus and that is why he could not shepherd me.
And if one is truly Born Again, one is not living as an unrepentent liar.
Matt
Former FBC Insider:
ReplyDeleteI am back in Jacksonville. What I've learned about ministry is that no one is perfect and that working on staff at a church is a difficult thing. What I love about the WD is that he's brought complaining and argumentative spirits in the church to a whole new level. However, I think the blog has turned into something much worse than it was created to be.
I do disagree on some of the Brunson Era Ideas and Plans. I do disagree with some Personnel Moves, HOWEVER, I also look at things like other churches in America... I look at Successful Churches and Churches that are reaching a generation that needs to be reached - my generation and I realize that Dr. Vines couldn't take us into that. I have realized that my generation thinks that FBC Jacksonville style churches are boring, unacceptable and not even giving and caring. All they see is a Country Club that they don't fit into. Missions doesn't have to be priority, but helping others and reaching out does have to be. LifeWay Research asked 500 unchurched 20-29 year olds if a woman wouldn't be allowed to preach in the church, how would you view that church. 78% said they would view that church negatively. They asked the same group if a church didn't love and reach out to homosexuals, how would they view that church. 81% said they would view that church negatively. Now, am I saying that we need to turn into flaming liberal churches? No. But I'm saying there are other cultures, other people, other situations that we need to be reaching out to. Churches should be "Come As You Are" and not "Come Dressed in a Tie". What I like about Brunson is that he's stripping away the Country Club Feel of First Jax. He's getting rid of all these programs and ministry that quite frankly, aren't needed. He's stripping away "dead wood" and people who think we should dress a certain way, say certain things or act a certain way to bear walking in the doors of FBC Jacksonville. Now, is he doing everything the way I think he should, absolutely not. But he's the Pastor and I'm not. He gets enough grief from other people... Ministry isn't for wimps or the light hearted. If people could vote in the church for everything... someone would vote against having Air Conditioning. That's just the way it is. Churches have become to difficult and to involved with their programs and ministries to forget what it's all about. Reaching people for Jesus Christ.
Don't You Agree, Former FBC Insider?
"no one is perfect"
ReplyDeleteYeah D'UH! No kidding. You aren't saying much there with that statement and this is not what we are asking for. What we are asking for is just a halfa-piece of godly behavior and righteousness from Mac and leadership. You know, what FBCJ pays through the nose for.
Ministry isn't for wimps or the light hearted.
ReplyDeleteThe way Fbc Jax Leadership has engaged (or not engaged) Watchdog, speaks volumes about the above. I understand the above phrase is a favorite of Mac. But what about practice?
I have to sadly conclude that the Fbc Jax Leadership have been wimps in this whole fiasco. Yes, I know they like to point to WD as a wimp, but it takes courage to day in and day out blog, post at least 3 times a week new posts, comment daily/hourly defending his points ... taking ridicule, questioning especially his state of mind and so on ... I do not think WD is a wimp.
The trouble is that we make those we hire to be preachers and pastors (two different functions!) into kings over the church. That is not Biblical and it is particularly not Baptist. Servants in those roles are what we need, not dictators. Any church that empowers the paid personnel to control the bylaws and budget is going to find that the membership is losing its control over the organization and now have a CEO and not a servant.
ReplyDeleteThy Peace:
ReplyDeleteI never said the WD was a wimp. Ministry isn't for the light a heart. I'm referring to Pastors and Staff. I'm referring to dealing with difficult people as a Pastor or Staff Member. You learn to not take attacks, to not take personal conflicts with church members, community leaders, other people. The reason is because people are opinionated. That's why I said what I said about people voting out Air Conditioning... If a church did a vote to decide whether or not to have air conditioning in their facilities... Someone would vote against it. People are difficult and if you're in ministry, you know that. If you're in ministry you understand that everyone will tell you how to do your calling and yet few are actually called. My point wasn't Brunson vs. WD or even an FBC Jax thing... it was church people who need to understand how difficult they make things for Pastors, Staff and Leadership who are trying to lead in God's Guidance.
jbleon: I used that phrase mainly because it has been used by Pastor Mac in many of his sermons. I was not equating that to your comment, but in my opinion what Fbc Jax felt about WD and what I felt about Fbc Jax Leadership by applying that phrase to the Leadership. Thanks for commenting.
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteThe only answer you gave to my question for staying under Brunson's leadership was that you like that Brunson is stripping away the Country Club Feel of FBCJ.
He is stripping away dead wood? Do you mean a more relaxed dress code?
What programs and ministries is he getting rid of that you don't need?
I agree with you that your generation is a tough one to reach.
I agree with you that churches need to have an open door policy, to welcome all, to love everyone into the fellowship.
I agree with you that churches (the people in the churches) should have a Come As You Are loving attitude.
I agree that most do not show a loving attitude when it comes to homosexuals and women in leadership.
I too have experienced those unlovely church people who take you to task about every little thing, i.e., carpet, drapes, songs, dress codes, their pew, etc...
Those are the ones we just have to love more, smile at more, stroke them, pet them, etc... they won't just go away, they will just go away mad.
We've all experienced those people in ministry. Like you said they're everywhere.
WD is only shedding light on the inconsistencies he sees. He doesn't care about trivial things like those other folks we were speaking of.
WD is not a complainer with an argumentative spirit. He has only shown the spotlight on what Brunson has been doing at FBCJ.
If Brunson wasn't doing it, it wasn't a topic of discussion.
I would love to know that you are truly examining 'why' you are still able to support someone when you have more in your 'con' column than in your 'pro' column.
I believe that God wants you to know why you can stay under the leadership of one you have so many disagreements with.
It's not about life being hard for poor ole Mac, it's about him doing the right thing when he is confronted or opposed.
That's going to happen to all of us one day.
Our response to opposition is our testimony.
I'm happy to hear from you Jack.
Congregants can sometimes be difficult for pastors, but most pastors don't call them sociopaths in public when they are or send them trespass warnings.
ReplyDeleteSo..what part of the country club is being done away with? The elitest and the rich are still running and ruining the church. While we are at it..I must caution in this reaching out to all scenario. I believe in witnessing to all, certainly but we must be careful about letting down certain standards. A church can go so far in the wrong direction (either way) as to make it useless. A Purpose Driven church for example is not desirable. Nor is the elitest country club snob assembly. Granted, a fine line to walk. That is why JESUS must lead. Since Gods Word IS the Authority....1 Cor.14: vs. 33: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."
ReplyDeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteMy point in having an open door policy is to be able to invite those people from outside the church family into the service so that the Holy Spirit can do His work.
I'm a believer that all sin is sin. If you are going to confront one, you've taken on a huge task because you must then confront them all.
How will lost people or any other people want to go through the church doors if they are being singled out for their particular sin? I know people within the church who are gay, adulterers, liars, and so on. If we only have a problem with 'one' of those sins enough to confront that 'one' from the pulpit, then those people won't even get in the door.
I say love them all to Jesus.
Bullying them won't help, it will hurt. Speaking the truth in love is important.
I completely understand your point, I just wanted to clarify mine a little more.
Live in the real world,
Don't live like the real world.
We have created our own sub-culture, surrounding ourselves with everything 'Christian'.
I feel what we've really done is create a ghetto that is dismissed by society in general.
I believe we need to stop running from the world and rush right smack in the middle of it.
How else will they know, if we don't 'associate' with them to tell them?
Former FBC Insider said...
ReplyDeleteJack,
The only answer you gave to my question for staying under Brunson's leadership was that you like that Brunson is stripping away the Country Club Feel of FBCJ.
He is stripping away dead wood? Do you mean a more relaxed dress code?
___________________________________
This is too funny - most of PVB, WGV, Nocatee folks are "Country Club" people!
Smart folks that will see through those wearing MASK . . .believe the plan is more about bringing in the Country Club dollars - they have invaded the territory of sister churches and really all not that welcome!
Smart folks that will see through those wearing MASK . . .believe the plan is more about bringing in the Country Club dollars - they have invaded the territory of sister churches and really all not that welcome!
ReplyDeleteJuly 29, 2009 3:46 PM
My former mega church also decided to 'branch out' after 30 years and put the two new branches (I call them franchises) in very wealthy areas with plenty of evangelical churches. Of course, the smaller ones will suffer as they siphon off folks for their exciting and entertaining youth and children programs. Entertain the kids and you get the adults. They know the formula well.
I do not know who they are fooling
Former FBC Insider,
ReplyDeleteSorry I didn't answer your question fully. I did mean to write more, however, I am truly ADD and am very good some times at getting off the path. I am sorry that I didn't finish answering your question.
I'll be honest, I like Brunson's Preaching. Forgive me because I know on this set of comments, I'm going to get bashed for it. I like the practical mixed with the "preacher" mixed with the outstanding delivery he can give. I also like how approachable he is. When I worked in Atlanta, Dr. Vines came to preach at First Atlanta and acted like he knew me and was a great "friend"... But my thing was, when he was here, there was no sign of that. As an on fire teenager in High School and Middle School all phone calls, e-mails and notes were handled by secretaries. Stopping by his office to talk was impossible. I like that with Dr. Brunson, I walk right in and say hey. I also agree with putting less focus on some ministries that were receiving too much funding... for example, Dining Services, Housekeeping, HR, Music, Children's Music, just to name a few. Now, as you probably know, Music is my "thing" however, I believe to much prominence was given to music. Many music ministries in church don't have the type of funds that FBC Jax us to have... many of the things I believe were wasted money. Fireworks for a 4th of July Service in the Auditorium while the choir sings... Really? Does that make sense? Now, don't get me wrong, it's great BUT is it needed? Sending High Schoolers on reward trips for FREE for being in Sunday School every week for 10 weeks.. is it needed? Now, I'm not talking about tours, they're great and very needed! I'm referring to those famous reward trips. So, does that make sense? I like Mac... (which is going to get me slapped around in here...) but I do think he's doing some good. However, I do see the bad too. I realize it's there, however, I know that if God chooses to move him, he does and life goes on. I also know if God prospers all he does here - that's great too.
I can see where this blog started to raise concern and to raise speculation for the "Team Brunson Issues" .. However, my thing is, what has this become? However, I do truly think it have become about complainers with an argumentative spirit. I do believe that it has become very much of that. Now, is that all the WD's fault.. no. But I don't see where it's helping anybody.. WD, Pastor, Church, etc.
Thanks Former FBC Insider. Would love to know who you are... I have an idea, but I won't post here. E-mail me, look at my contact page on blog to do that. Because if it is who I think it is, I'd love to catch up. Thanks.
Jack,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your honest answers. I understand what you're saying. I agree with one or two of your points in the spending area. I do hope some good will come out of the Brunson era.
I just find that the bad is far outweighing the good. I'm sure we will talk again soon. Thanks for the invite.
Love you brother.
Thanks Former FBC Insider. Would love to know who you are... I have an idea, but I won't post here. E-mail me, look at my contact page on blog to do that. Because if it is who I think it is, I'd love to catch up. Thanks.
ReplyDelete__________________________________
The more I read from FFBCI . . .I have an idea, as well, because as IF it's whom I think it is, this individual was one of the most beloved members of FBC, served with a heart of joy and if it is who I think it is, this member is MISSED VERY MUCH!