Two weeks ago, Perry Noble said that if there were fewer greedy, non-tithing, God-robbing Christians, there might be less homosexuality in the world."Maybe there would be less homosexuality in the world today if there were less greedy Christians who actually cared enough to tithe and spread the gospel." Perry Noble, April 17, 2011
But interestingly, we see this past Sunday, that the reverse might just be true: that the more money you give to NewSpring Church, the MORE promotion of homosexuality you might be involved in! It might actually be the tithers and Perry Noble at NewSpring, not the non-tithers, who are promoting homosexuality.
You see, this past Sunday Perry Noble's worship band opened the service by playing and singing the song "You're a Firework". Watch the NewSpring worship band here.
"You're a Firework" is a world-wide #1 hit pop song, performed by and co-written by pop sensation Katy Perry. The song is from her album "Teenage Dream", and the music video for the song features several young people who find courage within themselves to overcome their fears and anxieties. One of the young people in the video is a gay young man who musters the courage to approach another young man at a party and land a French kiss on him, as seen in the still shot below from the video. The sparks in the picture are from the "fireworks" bursting from within as he expresses himself as a gay man kissing another man. That is what the song is about in part.
So who is promoting homosexuality now? Is it the non-tithers? I think not - perhaps it is the tithers at NewSpring Church, because it is a reasonable assumption that Perry Noble's church did pay a licensing fee to Katy Perry and her co-writers for the use of her song. If true, then Perry Noble's NewSpring Church is taking money from Christians who were told they MUST give it to God (via NewSpring, Inc. of course) and NewSpring (on God's behalf, presumably) purposely gives it to an artist who has no problem promoting the gay lifestyle in her songs and videos. Watchdog readers might remember that Katy Perry rose to fame in 2008 with the song "I Kissed a Girl (and I Liked It)", about her fantasy of romantically kissing a pretty girl.
So while Perry Noble pontificates that greedy non-tithers are keeping him from reaching the gays with the gospel....his church is playing songs written by a pop artist who does not have a problem promoting the gay lifestyle.
I'm really not trying to make light of the hypocrisy of Perry Noble in this...it really is a serious matter. Noble's church is filled with a very young crowd - that is why his worship band is playing rock and pop songs. We've raised teenagers for the past 8 years, and believe me all the teens at NewSpring know who Katy Perry is, and they know of her "I Kissed a Girl" song. Many of them have probably seen the "You're a Firework" video featuring the male kiss above. So for Perry Noble's worship leaders to be playing Katy Perry music is about as close to promoting the gay lifestyle as a church can get, whether they mean to or not.
But if you're a gullible mega church pew sitter, it is easy to convince you that the person who doesn't drop 10% in the plate is the one who is helping to promote a gay lifestyle, not those who might be paying licensing fees to artists who promote a gay lifestyle in their music and videos.
So let's do a remix on Perry's quote:
"Maybe there would be less homosexuality in the world if emergent churches would stop confusing their young Christians by playing in their worship services secular music written and performed by artists who promote the gay lifestyle." Watchdog, May 4, 2011
Perry Noble is doing an amazing work at Newspring!
ReplyDeleteHe pushes the envelope...didn't Jesus do that too?
His goal is to see people come to Christ and Perry will use every tool available to do that.
Maybe if you don't like his Church and their methodology that you choose to not go there...is not not a good option for you?
Let me give you some of Perry's wisdom...
Church services SHOULD be WAY more exciting than March Madness! If Jesus isn't boring then His people and His house shouldn't be either!
You can tell what kind of ministry you have by who your church is attracting...and also who your church is ticking off!
If someone gets identity,income,or influence by mocking others,appealing to reason is useless.Prov 9:7-8,13:1,21:24,29:8
These quotes tell you WHY Perry is a National Leader in the Church in the USA...He is BOLD FOR JESUS!!!!
Churches are no longer a sanctuary for saints.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 5 KJV
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Will Newspring put these, written in these verses, out of the church?
"Church services SHOULD be WAY more exciting than March Madness! If Jesus isn't boring then His people and His house shouldn't be either!"
ReplyDeleteThere is a huge difference in not being boring and being irreverent.
If Jesus is not he center focus of the song sung, sermon preached, lesson taught it is not God honoring.
The song could have easily been rewritten (as many ungodly tunes we now use as hymns were) and sung with Jesus (and His name) being mentioned.
I am not sure if something was said later to connect Jesus to the song (or the song to Jesus) but I wonder if a lost world would get it if it wasn't.
"You can tell what kind of ministry you have by who your church is attracting...and also who your church is ticking off!"
Who is being attracted to Nobles church (I have nothing against him, I do not know anything about him)? What life changes are being made?
Some of what God is dealing with me is where we as Christians (On Sunday or any day) take that which is sacred and make it common). I worry some will do this to attract big crowds. I hope I am wrong.
If Newspring is seeing people saved and built up in Christ, then PTL. If it is a weekly youth camp experience, then I would be worried.
Dog,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the hypocrisy, but I disagree if you are saying the song shouldn't be used. In my view, music is music, if the context is an exhortation and tied to celebrating you as unique and wonderful creation of God, I get it and don't have a problem with it.
If there's no context and it's just a way to draw attention/more young wallets to that church, then I think you're spot on.
@Jon Estes.
ReplyDeleteJust to give a bit of background on Perry Noble (and the kind of people he hires to minister in his church), read the Pajama Pages blog. WD has it on his blog roll.
Anon 11:28 - I don't care what songs they sing, honestly. My point is the hypocrisy of bringing up the homosexual issue in the context of tithing, but yet they are (very probably) paying license fees to a pop star who has launched her career by advocating in songs and video homosexuality.
ReplyDeletePlay "Highway to Hell", or any songs they like, I couldn't care less.
Advocating? Perhaps advocating acceptance and understanding, which is far different than recruiting and promotion. My partner and I are gay, we attend church every week (Baptist), begin each day with devotions and prayer, support many Christian charities, do our best to show love to our neighbors, friends, co-workers, and seek to live lives that honor God. Are we perfect? Hardly. I am not sure exactly what the "gay lifestyle" is, but our lifestyle means supporting each other, loving each other, supporting and loving our families, being honest with each other, those around us, and most importantly, with Christ. My partner is a much more consistent tither than I am, but I am working on it. As for Katy Perry songs in church, Twila Paris is about as "pop" as I care to get in church service music. Give me the great hymns of the faith anyday.
ReplyDeleteI love it when he cusses! He speaks my language!
ReplyDeleteHe is in touch with where we are and brings home the bacon every single weekend!
Katy Perry was raised in a fundamentalist home and has rejected the faith. Her song, I Kissed a Girl and I Liked It, was a strike at her Christian heritage. In fact most of her songs are a way to distance herself from Christianity. Perry Noble is way off base.
ReplyDeleteFor background on Katie Perry, read the article linked below.
ReplyDeleteIronically, the article is from today's London Daily Mail and is titled:'I didn’t have a childhood': Katy Perry opens up about her fight to escape the strict views of her evangelical minister parents
http://tinyurl.com/6fkf2wx
I didn't hear the sermon, so I wonder what the "firework within" was explained to be. I'm not creative enough to be able to make a connection between this song and the gospel. Others might be.
"My partner and I are gay, we attend church every week (Baptist), begin each day with devotions and prayer, support many Christian charities, do our best to show love to our neighbors, friends, co-workers, and seek to live lives that honor God. Are we perfect? Hardly. I am not sure exactly what the "gay lifestyle" is, but our lifestyle means supporting each other, loving each other, supporting and loving our families, being honest with each other, those around us, and most importantly, with Christ. My partner is a much more consistent tither than I am, but I am working on it."
ReplyDeleteYou and your partner sound like you are good people. I believe your lifestyle choices are biblically wrong but you are good people, none the less.
The practice of taking wordly music and changing the words around to make it "holy" is a piss on God's face and rejection of His spiritual gifts bestowed upon us as Christians.
ReplyDeleteAre there no Christians that exist today, who are creative and gifted musically, that can write and compose music suitable for God's glory, which churchs can use to satisfy the worship needs of their congregations?
I think there are. Michael W. Smith; Chris Tomlin; Charles Billingsly; Travis Cotrell. These are just a few names who have achieved just what I'm talking about.
It is a bad idea and it is a matter of foolish reasoning based on the objective to merge religion with a comtemporary society that leads church leaders these days to think it is alright to take worldly music and change it to attract particular crowds. And I'll tell you what the catalyst is that drives this foolish thinking. It's these church marketing dickheads, like Maurillio Armorim, who believe they can bridge the gap between old time relgion and modern, comtemporary American culture.
Anon 1:25pm,
ReplyDeleteAdvocating acceptance and understanding of homosexuality is the same as endorsing and approving of the gay lifestyle. I find it hard to believe you don't understand what the "gay lifestyle" is seeing how you're gay. It's a nicer, more appropriate and discrete way of refering to the "gay" sexual preference.
There's nothing wrong with "begin each day with devotions and prayer, support many Christian charities, do our best to show love to our neighbors, friends, co-workers, and seek to live lives that honor God."
Those things are not what distinguish the "gay" lifestyle from the "straight" lifestyle. What does is that one lifestyle prefers healty, natural, God ordanied sexual behavior and the other doesn't.
Hey, Butcher Priest, still looking for that list of do's and don'ts a person must follow to be a christian you wrote about previously. You know, like when you said a person has to tithe if they are a christian.
ReplyDeleteYou can find that list in the Bible if you'd read it. You're not that type of Christian who needs a lot of handholding are you?
ReplyDeletePerry Noble is a Prophet!
ReplyDeleteHe gets in your face and speaks the truth with conviction and I love it!
We are tired of this namby pamby preaching...that is why this new generation likes Steven Furtick and Perry Noble and Ed Young Jr.
These Pastors are bold, brash, and biblical!
They will tell you straight up they want your tithe, your time, your allegiance, and your support.
If you do not want to give them those things, don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you!
TurnYourEyesOnJC,
ReplyDeleteI used to think you were on the right track. But after reading your original comment on this blog and the one following it, I am beginning to take you less seriously.
I loved this post, it brings out just how worldly churches will become to be "cutting edge". A Prophet I agree but who side? Balm ?
ReplyDelete"They will tell you straight up they want your tithe, your time, your allegiance, and your support."
ReplyDeleteThat's just it, they want it for them when it's suppose to be for Jesus.
"If you do not want to give them those things, don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you!"
Trust me I will do as Dr Rogers used to say and permeate the place with my absense.
My Bible does not have a list, mine says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."
ReplyDeleteWhat list does you Bible have?
Good stuff! Keep it up, WD!
ReplyDeleteMy Bible says:
ReplyDelete"Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn; for they shall be comforted; Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth; blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled; blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God. Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:3-10
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
James 1:12
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
Proverbs 3:5-6
"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others; Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one that exalteth himsefl shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
Luke 18:9-14
A great list to live by but where is Jesus?
ReplyDeleteWishIhadKnown,
ReplyDeleteYou are really off your rocker today. Jesus is in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the throne of God our Father.
Good post WD. My thoughts are is it good to eat meat that's been offered to idols?
ReplyDeleteAre you folks jealous?
ReplyDeleteIs that what all this is about?
You are not hammering some of these really boring, dull, and sleepy preachers that are on every corner that have about 17 people in their churches and do NOTHING to further the Gospel.
You don't go after MTV, the liberals, the gay activists, the porno dealers, and the Christian Militia.
We are going after Perry Noble?
Really?
How Sad....
Are you jealous STS?
ReplyDeleteIs that what all this is about?
You don't go after MTV, the liberals, the gay activists, the porno dealers, and the Christian Militia.
You are going after a Christian blogger?
Really?
How Sad....
TurnureyesonJC:
ReplyDelete"His goal is to see people come to Christ and Perry will use every tool available to do that."
God knowing the condition of the human heart and what it leads to did not call us to use every tool at a disposal. That is why He sent us the Holy Spirit which is the greatest tool in the box. IF we are using the spirit of this world then we are disabling our people. We are called to turn our eyes and hearts upon Jesus while turning our backs on the world. When we take songs like that we run the risk of sending a messed up message to the unbeliever or the one who is weak in their faith. I hope pastor took the chance to give clarity on the issue since that song was used.
Pastor Chris
"You are going after a Christian blogger?"
ReplyDeleteWell actually I don't know if this is true. He is talking to you and the others here, not out there talking about you. I think there is a difference. I may be wrong and STS can clarify, but dialogging or debating an issue with someone who differs doesn't mean they are going after them.
Jon, Jon. My word. OK, I'll explain it for you.
ReplyDeleteSTS seems to think we should ignore Perry Noble, and "go after" others.
OK, so why doesn't he just ignore the blogger himself and "go after" those he thinks I should "go after"? Why waste his time coming to a blog to complain about what I am blogging about? He should "go after" the libs, MTV, etc. Start a blog about them, perhaps.
Shouldn't he be better spending his time witnessing? Why waste time coming here?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAt what point do we become so world like that we cease worshiping God and worship the golden calf instead?
ReplyDeleteIf your list does not begin with Jesus and end with Jesus and have Jesus through and through then I fear that you are in serious trouble my friend!
ReplyDeleteTo be poor in spirit is to find Jesus.
To be meek is to find Jesus.
To find righteousness is to find Jesus.
To be pure in heart is to find Jesus.
To be persecuted for righteousness sake you must first find Jesus.
Jesus saves us out of temptation.
Jesus is the one who justifies the Pharisee as well as the publican.
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
If that makes me “off my rocker” then so be it.
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
I seriously don't understand why people attempt to dialog with STS. He makes ridiculous statements designed to get people stirred up and constantly contradicts himself.
ReplyDeleteHe is by definition a troll.
Jon Estes is only one step above a troll. His flip-flopping and parsing of words would make Bill Clinton blush.
ReplyDelete"You and your partner sound like you are good people. I believe your lifestyle choices are biblically wrong but you are good people, none the less."
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by "good?"
"What do you mean by "good?""
ReplyDeleteThey are not bad people as far as I can tell. Their choices, as I stated, are wrong but as people and the way I understand bad, they are not bad.
I don't have any reason to think gay people are bad. Wrong, yes but bad?
If you differ, what is it that makes one bad? When does that bad become good?
"His flip-flopping and parsing of words would make Bill Clinton blush."
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean flip flopping. If yo mean my commitment to not be ugly, arrogant... I don't believe I have been.
As far as parsing... I don't believe good = bad. They may meet sometimes but they are not always the same.
i.e. If you get a job offer for $1,00,000.00 a year doing what you love, that is a good thing. If you take it because it is a good thing even though God would not want you too, that is wrong. I'd still think you were a good person for making such a choice but I would not think your decision would be right.
Perry himself said he pays no attention to bloggers (he did at one time), His Church really seems to. Every "preacher" needs a thorn in the flesh.... keeps them humble.. some just need bigger thorns...
ReplyDeleteBecause a Church has 17 members does not make them not in God's will. Maybe they decided not to steal sheep from other churches. People will find out that churches sometimes don't grow as fast in number when you take the time to bu ild a strong foundation. Sometimesmega church is dependent of sheer number of people within a given location. You say it is impressive when you have a church of 5,000 + within an area of multitudes. when you talk about these small boring country churches then ask youself what is the population of the area and what percentage of the people they are drawing. A FBC in a small town can have more members per captia than a mega in a metro area. Don't get me wrong, some of these smaller churches have issues that push people away. The biggest problem we are facing in small and large churches is the quality of spiritual growth.
ReplyDeleteChristopher Coleman Joyce Meyer
ReplyDelete"Because a Church has 17 members does not make them not in God's will."
ReplyDeleteGood comment. You also reply to the comment of those small boring churches. Boring for one person may be exciting for another. We had a family with us for only a few months which left because we didn't do that tongue stuff. Shortly there after we had a family come and be a part of the fellowship because we didn't do that tongue stuff.
Not all fellowships will attract all people, mega or not.
It is easy to focus the discussion on what we like and don't like instead of spiritual growth. We also must be careful to not define spiritual growth through one lens. with all our faults and missteps is getting Jesus out to the world, growing believers up in Christ... a priority to our fellowship?
Christians sure disagree a lot about what the Christian life is supposed to look like, how they are supposed to worship God, doctrines, what music is okay, the rules about money. It's all so depressing.
ReplyDeleteI truly don't see how being gay is so very awful to Christians. Would you rather live beside a gay couple who are good neighbors and decent people, or would you rather live beside a heterosexual couple who are jerks or criminals, yet they were born attracted to the opposite sex?
Also, why must there be an enemy? Gays, "the world," liberals?
I've concluded that there's one group who many Christians disapprove of more than they disapprove of non-Christians. It's other Christians.
I think Christians should just acknowledge that there are gays in this world, living amongst us. Why not befriend them (with no hidden agenda) and learn more about them as individuals?
Imagine gays worrying about other gays promoting the "straight lifestyle" and how awful that is.
"Not sure what you mean flip flopping. If yo mean my commitment to not be ugly, arrogant... I don't believe I have been."
ReplyDeleteWe have had this discussion many times before Jon. You know exactly what I'm talking about.
Now you are parsing words about flip-flopping.
LOL!
"As far as parsing... I don't believe good = bad. They may meet sometimes but they are not always the same."
ReplyDeleteThanks for proving my point.
"They are not bad people as far as I can tell. Their choices, as I stated, are wrong but as people and the way I understand bad, they are not bad."
ReplyDelete"I don't have any reason to think gay people are bad. Wrong, yes but bad?"
"If you differ, what is it that makes one bad? When does that bad become good?"
Congratulations. You wrote three paragraphs and never answered my question.
"Christians sure disagree a lot about what the Christian life is supposed to look like, how they are supposed to worship God, doctrines, what music is okay, the rules about money. It's all so depressing."
ReplyDeleteSo do non-Christians. Your point?
"I truly don't see how being gay is so very awful to Christians. Would you rather live beside a gay couple who are good neighbors and decent people, or would you rather live beside a heterosexual couple who are jerks or criminals, yet they were born attracted to the opposite sex?"
ReplyDeleteChristians follow the teachings of the Bible not the culture. The culture teaches us that all philosophies are equal and must be accepted equally or you are a bigot. The Bible teaches us that there is a difference in right and wrong and that we don't condone the sin we do love the sinner.
"Also, why must there be an enemy? Gays, "the world," liberals?"
ReplyDeleteThe Bible teaches us that there is a spiritual battle going on in the world.
You should perhaps ask yourself the same question. Why must there be enemies for gays, liberals?
Prop 8 supporters were recently targeted by gays and liberals. Their employers were called trying to get them fired and their addresses were published on the internet.
Republicans who were trying to cut costs and reduce our 13 trillion dollar debt were vilified just the other day on the network news. They were accused of wanting to starve senior citizens to death.
So, I believe their is enough blame to go around.
"I've concluded that there's one group who many Christians disapprove of more than they disapprove of non-Christians. It's other Christians."
ReplyDeleteEvery group has other groups that they disagree with. Why do you only focus on Christians?
"I think Christians should just acknowledge that there are gays in this world, living amongst us. Why not befriend them (with no hidden agenda) and learn more about them as individuals?"
ReplyDeleteSounds like you are trying to force your morality onto others. Liberals are always telling us this is wrong.
"Imagine gays worrying about other gays promoting the "straight lifestyle" and how awful that is."
ReplyDeleteYou mean like the ones that are hated by the gay community because they attended a Christian class trying to get them live out a biblical life style?
"You wrote three paragraphs and never answered my question."
ReplyDeleteI answered but it was not the answer you wanted or the way you wanted it answered.
Of course you did not answer my question at all. Let me ask again:
If you differ, what is it that makes one bad? When does that bad become good?
Lynn -
ReplyDeleteYou make a good point. One that probably will get you and your response criticized but good point regardless.
It gets tiring to exist to argue every position someone disagrees with me. This is one reason I want my critique and comments to be about the subject and not the person.
Sometimes that is difficult but it what I want to do. Gays are not our enemy. Christ died for them and the eternal argument consigning them to hell is not an approach which will give us platform to love them towards Christ. I believe you know this.
Again, thanks for your comment.
Off Topic: Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] > Goodbye for now
ReplyDelete"I answered but it was not the answer you wanted or the way you wanted it answered."
ReplyDeleteThat is not true Jon. My question was:
"What do you mean by good?"
You did not answer my question.
"Of course you did not answer my question at all. Let me ask again:
If you differ, what is it that makes one bad? When does that bad become good?"
You answer mine first.
"You make a good point. One that probably will get you and your response criticized but good point regardless."
ReplyDeleteWhy does this response not surprise me? Exactly what you would expect from someone that uses the secular culture and tradition to come to his position instead of the Bible.
"It gets tiring to exist to argue every position someone disagrees with me. This is one reason I want my critique and comments to be about the subject and not the person."
ReplyDeleteThis from a person who argues positions dozens of times each day on this blog often using out of context scripture to try to intimidate others.
He doesn't live it, but he does agree with a philosophy that directly contradicts the Bible.
Jude 1: 3
"Sometimes that is difficult but it what I want to do. Gays are not our enemy. Christ died for them and the eternal argument consigning them to hell is not an approach which will give us platform to love them towards Christ. I believe you know this."
ReplyDeleteChrist taught us that the Gospel is an offense to non-believers. You can't undo that offense by trying to water down the message. I believe you know this.
"Again, thanks for your comment."
ReplyDeleteLynn's comments are not accurate about Christians or non-Christians.
Can we as Christians put truth above political correctness?
Jon, how do Lynn's comments (criticism of Christians for judging homosexuals) harmonize with your view of "touch not mine anointed" - not criticizing pastors?
ReplyDeleteLeviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
ReplyDeleteLeviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"
Jon, are these Old Testament verses for today or are they just historical narrative?
Keep in mind that you accused those who disagreed with your position on the tithe of ignoring OT mandates and relegating them to the status of historical narrative.
In response, I'll just say the Bible is no longer my guide when considering homosexuality, etc.
ReplyDeleteIn it's place is my life experience, my intelligence, my personality, my open-mindedness, my common sense, my empathy for others, my respect for education, my acknowledgement that we are not all the same, my respect for well-though-out opinions of others, etc. All these things are my guide. Not the Bible.
What is the point of even having a brain if we are not to use it?
Also it's almost funny for me to be described as "the world" or "politically correct." I've been pretty conservative my whole life and grew up as a Baptist in NC. I'm not a liberal. I'm not from the Northeast.
"Christ taught us that the Gospel is an offense to non-believers. You can't undo that offense by trying to water down the message. I believe you know this.
ReplyDeleteI believe this but let the message be the offense, not the delivery. the gospel is not a club and the gospel being an offense to some does not mean it is also.
Some people just don't wan t to hear it. Others are offended by it. let the gospel be the offense, not us. Not so much in their eyes but in the eyes of our Lord.
"Jon, are these Old Testament verses for today or are they just historical narrative?'
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. It is not a greater sin than any we commit. God hates sin. So do I but I am to love His greatest creation and share the gospel with them, in love with grace.
It is the Holy spirits role to convict them and win them to Him and His position, not mine. It is mine to share the good news. One does not have to water down the gospel to share Jesus.
Let the gospel be about Him and His gift not any specific sin.
""What do you mean by good?""
ReplyDelete"What do you mean by "good?""
I mean...
They are not bad people as far as I can tell. Their choices, as I stated, are wrong but as people and the way I understand bad, they are not bad.
I don't have any reason to think gay people are bad. Wrong, yes but bad?
Your turn.
If you differ, what is it that makes one bad? When does that bad become good?
"Jon, how do Lynn's comments (criticism of Christians for judging homosexuals) harmonize with your view of "touch not mine anointed" - not criticizing pastors?"
ReplyDeleteI reread my comment and should have been more clear. I was referring to:
Christians sure disagree a lot about what the Christian life is supposed to look like, how they are supposed to worship God, doctrines, what music is okay, the rules about money. It's all so depressing.
Anon 11:11,
ReplyDeleteThank you for quoting from Leviticus to tell us that homosexuality is a sin.
Given that, how should we address the other sins listed in Leviticus? Are you (or your pastor) wesring clothes made of two separate fabrics? I'm assuming you, and your pastor, violate this code everyday just with your shoes. What an abomination to come to church on Sunday and flaunt your rebellion to Levitical law right in God's face.
Did you shave your face today? Do you cut the sides of your hair? Have you ever eaten a ham sandwhich or bacon? Let's hope again you did this in your own private time and didn't bring this disgusting, habitual sinful behavior in to the church.
How about stoning women caught in adultry? Is that an activity listed in your church bulletin?
Now, I am not a homosexual, and truly I do think it is a sin. But I'm done with people labeling this the unpardonable sin and driving people, and churches, out of fellowship because of it. I don't claim to have the answers, but I do know that hating people is not part of God's plan. Saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" is an excuse for hate.
While I don't generally agree with Jon, I think his post at 12:17 is the right approach.
"In response, I'll just say the Bible is no longer my guide when considering homosexuality, etc."
ReplyDeleteWell, in my humble but correct opinion, that is a mistake.
The Bible is the foundation for the amount of civility we enjoy in our western civilization.
Our founding fathers used it as a guide in building our nation.
It contains valuable instructions for living a productive and happy life.
You can't just throw out portions that are not currently popular with the secular society and be consistent.
"In it's place is my life experience, my intelligence, my personality, my open-mindedness, my common sense, my empathy for others, my respect for education, my acknowledgement that we are not all the same, my respect for well-though-out opinions of others, etc. All these things are my guide. Not the Bible."
ReplyDeleteAnd where did those things come from? Wouldn't it be wise to obey the book that was written as a guide by your creator?
Christians have access to those same qualities along with wise counsel from their creator.
For instance:
Proverbs 26: 12
"What is the point of even having a brain if we are not to use it?"
ReplyDeleteOf course, this is a cliche used by people who really don't want to get to know Christians but still criticize them.
Some of the most brilliant men and women of all time have been Christians. But don't let that get in the way of your bias.
Luke 10: 27
"Also it's almost funny for me to be described as "the world" or "politically correct." I've been pretty conservative my whole life and grew up as a Baptist in NC. I'm not a liberal. I'm not from the Northeast."
ReplyDeleteYou would be correct if I had described you as a liberal. I didn't. I responded to the argument that you made that Christians always need an enemy. Instead of dealing with the topic, you tried to play the victim. That is what is known as a straw man argument. I'm not sure how I could have known that since I don't use my mind.
You said that you use your "open-mindedness" as a substitute for scripture.
ReplyDeleteI have a question about open-mindedness.
If you are not open-minded are you wrong?
If so, is this an open-minded position?
If not, why are you advocating it?
Seems to me, it is good to be open minded until you have reached a logical conclusion and then it does absolutely no good after that.
"I believe this but let the message be the offense, not the delivery. the gospel is not a club and the gospel being an offense to some does not mean it is also."
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that the message will never be the offense if you don't deliver the message in it's original form. The Bible does not shy away from saying that homosexuality is wrong - in the strongest language possible.
"It is the Holy spirits role to convict them and win them to Him and His position, not mine. It is mine to share the good news. One does not have to water down the gospel to share Jesus."
ReplyDeleteGod is a God of both love and judgement. You present an inaccurate picture of God when you only talk about one side of the equation.
Again, the Bible does not shy away from presenting both sides truthfully. Neither should you.
"Let the gospel be about Him and His gift not any specific sin."
ReplyDeleteWho is making the claim that the gospel is about a specific sin?
"Your turn."
ReplyDelete"If you differ, what is it that makes one bad? When does that bad become good?"
Nope. You still didn't answer my question.
Perhaps I am not being clear. I am asking what you mean by good. I am asking for a definition not an application.
You are telling me that you don't think homosexuals are bad people, but that has nothing to do with your definition of the word.
The reason I am asking is because your implied definition seems to fit with the culture but not the Bible.
"I reread my comment and should have been more clear. I was referring to:"
ReplyDeleteBut isn't that true of almost any group? Why are Christians being singled out as if not being in total agreement makes what you believe false. That's just not logical.
"Thank you for quoting from Leviticus to tell us that homosexuality is a sin."
ReplyDelete"Given that, how should we address the other sins listed in Leviticus?"
Well, it depends. If you interpret scripture like Jon does, in a wooden literal sense, then those laws are still applicable for today. That's how he came to the incorrect conclusion that the tithe is still required in the NT era. He accused anyone who disagreed with him of taking the OT scriptures as historical narrative only.
Of course, we are not supposed to notice that he does the same things with verses about the Sabbath and many other like the ones you quoted.
So, is the Bible wrong or is Jon's interpretation wrong? I'll let you figure that one out.
"Now, I am not a homosexual, and truly I do think it is a sin. But I'm done with people labeling this the unpardonable sin and driving people, and churches, out of fellowship because of it. I don't claim to have the answers, but I do know that hating people is not part of God's plan. Saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" is an excuse for hate."
ReplyDeleteWho is labeling this as the unpardonable sin? The Bible teaches us that anyone who claims to love God and has continued unrepentant sin in his life is a liar.
Your definition of hate comes from the culture not the Bible. The Bible teaches us to love the sinner and hate the sin - just like we do with sin in our own lives.
"While I don't generally agree with Jon, I think his post at 12:17 is the right approach."
ReplyDeleteIn this case, Jon is being consistent (with his inconsistent view). Jon reminds me of George Castanza from the Seinfeld show. Go with the opposite. Disagree with him and you are 99% sure to be right.
"I have a question about open-mindedness."
ReplyDeleteBy open-mindedness, I just mean open to the thoughts of others or learning something new or looking at something from a different angle. Or acknowledging that I could be wrong about something, even if I'm fairly sure I'm right.
"Some of the most brilliant men and women of all time have been Christians."
ReplyDeleteVery true.
"And where did those things come from? Wouldn't it be wise to obey the book that was written as a guide by your creator?
ReplyDeleteChristians have access to those same qualities along with wise counsel from their creator."
We have different beliefs about the Bible. I don't believe God wrote the Bible.
The Bible is the foundation for the amount of civility we enjoy in our western civilization.
ReplyDelete"Our founding fathers used it as a guide in building our nation.
It contains valuable instructions for living a productive and happy life.
You can't just throw out portions that are not currently popular with the secular society and be consistent."
I agree with all of this. Re the last paragraph, I don't claim to follow the Bible. Christians do claim to follow the Bible. But yet they pick and choose what they want to follow from it.
I can't find what you said about me saying that Christians always need an enemy. All the anonymous posters are running together. I wish everybody would get some kind of name.
ReplyDeleteI grew up IFB, and everyone's an enemy to them-the world AND other Christians. I lived among them from birth, so I do know what I'm talking about on that subject.
"I am asking what you mean by good. I am asking for a definition not an application. "
ReplyDeleteI mean that they are nice, not bad people. People who are not living their lives to hurt other people intentionally and who deeply care about the world they live in.
yes, this is a definition you might find in Webster and i do completely understand that the bible says there is none good, no not one.
My original comment was:
"You and your partner sound like you are good people. I believe your lifestyle choices are biblically wrong but you are good people, none the less."
I was not making a spiritual or biblical judgment but a judgment upon them as a person who lives in this world.
Maybe you see it as everyone is no good. Maybe you do not like it when others use cultural language (like I did) to be kind to others. I really don't know and I really have no interest in changing your mind.
I tell my kids and grandkids often they are good. My grandson helps his little sister and I hug him and tell him he was so good to do such a thing. I would hope you do the same thing in similar circumstances.
I completely understand how wicked each person is before God because of sin. I completely understand how we are our righteousness is nothing but filthy rags. I do not discount such wickedness in every person but even with that within mankind, we live in a world where words have meanings and we need to reach that world using a language they will understand. I have no problem telling anyone that good people go to hell.
Agree or disagree, it really doesn't matter, I know what I meant and stand beside it.
"Given that, how should we address the other sins listed in Leviticus? Are you (or your pastor) wesring clothes made of two separate fabrics? I'm assuming you, and your pastor, violate this code everyday just with your shoes. What an abomination to come to church on Sunday and flaunt your rebellion to Levitical law right in God's face."
ReplyDeleteAhhhhh Ha!!!..the darn old silly worn out moth riddled full of holes "two separate fabrics" argument!!! One of the many oldest arguments in the books I reckons. Many a ning nong uses that argument among other arguments in the books, including trying to justify the evil wicked gross sins of homosexuality on a par with bestiality and other wickedness's. Yikes......
President Bartlet's Fallacious Diatribe
"touch not mine anointed" even dough id is not clearly defined in the ABOVE POSTS is a nother silly stupid redikulous argument I reckons. Cor if some only took some time out to study their Bibles or borrow one if they aint got one and spend the next ten years READING it and even I'd go as far and say: STUDY it!!! we'd have a heap less problems than we do presently don't enjoy.
The Untouchables
Love or hate Hank, he DOES nail certain issues...
The ignorances on somes blogs is simplys astoundings I reckons.
off back to sleep now, see ya'll later
ps
ReplyDeletePerry Noble is a wicked unrepentant Scripture twisting false teacher flee him as fast as you can.....
a wolf in sheep's clothing? he sure looks like one, no light in the guy's eyes...
"By open-mindedness, I just mean open to the thoughts of others or learning something new or looking at something from a different angle. Or acknowledging that I could be wrong about something, even if I'm fairly sure I'm right."
ReplyDeleteThanks for the definition.
So, if you are not open-minded are you wrong?
"Some of the most brilliant men and women of all time have been Christians."
ReplyDeleteVery true.
Thanks for agreeing. So, why do you accuse Christians of not using their brain?
"We have different beliefs about the Bible. I don't believe God wrote the Bible."
ReplyDeleteGod didn't write the Bible. God inspired men to write the Bible. But it is still his guide for living.
"I agree with all of this. Re the last paragraph, I don't claim to follow the Bible. Christians do claim to follow the Bible. But yet they pick and choose what they want to follow from it."
ReplyDeleteReally? You don't agree with the prohibitions on murder, rape and robbery and reject the politically incorrect prohibitions like homosexuality?
Re the last paragraph. You are oversimplifying a complicated issue. You can't lump all Christians into one category.
Hermeneutics is an art and a science. You become more proficient at it the more you practice it.
In order to interpret scripture correctly you have to consider genre, culture, form, technique, context, etc - just as you do in other literature.
Not applying civil and ceremonial laws given to a theocracy that pointed toward a messiah is not the same as what non-Chrisitans like to do - cherry picking from scripture.
"I can't find what you said about me saying that Christians always need an enemy. All the anonymous posters are running together. I wish everybody would get some kind of name."
ReplyDeleteHere is your quote:
"Also, why must there be an enemy? Gays, "the world," liberals?"
"I grew up IFB, and everyone's an enemy to them-the world AND other Christians. I lived among them from birth, so I do know what I'm talking about on that subject."
ReplyDeleteWell, I would say that you know about the ones that you were associated with. I would image that they would have a different opinion.
"I mean that they are nice, not bad people. People who are not living their lives to hurt other people intentionally and who deeply care about the world they live in."
ReplyDeleteHow can you be sure that all gay people fit this category? This sounds like a prejudiced view to me. Like you are lumping a huge group into one category based on sexual preference.
"yes, this is a definition you might find in Webster and i do completely understand that the bible says there is none good, no not one."
ReplyDeleteSo, it sounds like my claim that your definition is based on the culture and not the Bible is correct.
Wouldn't it be wiser to Christians to use the Bible's definition?
"You and your partner sound like you are good people. I believe your lifestyle choices are biblically wrong but you are good people, none the less."
ReplyDeleteI was not making a spiritual or biblical judgment but a judgment upon them as a person who lives in this world.
This is word parsing of the worst kind.
That's why I kept asking for your definition of "good."
What you are saying here is in complete opposition to what Christ taught.
"Maybe you see it as everyone is no good. Maybe you do not like it when others use cultural language (like I did) to be kind to others. I really don't know and I really have no interest in changing your mind."
ReplyDeleteI agree with what Christ taught in Luke 18: 19.
If you don't agree, as a pastor, you really should have an interest in changing your mind.
Christ's definition of good should trump the culture's definition in a Christian's life.
"I tell my kids and grandkids often they are good. My grandson helps his little sister and I hug him and tell him he was so good to do such a thing. I would hope you do the same thing in similar circumstances."
ReplyDeleteThis is a bad analogy Jon.
Do you tell them they are good when they do bad things? Probably not.
The Bible teaches us that even our righteousness is as filthy rags.
Would Jesus call someone good who was living in ongoing, unrepentant sin? He named the sins of the woman and the well and told her to go and sin no more.
That is Christ's example.
"Agree or disagree, it really doesn't matter, I know what I meant and stand beside it."
ReplyDeleteJon, Jon, Jon.
If it hadn't mattered, you wouldn't have responded. And it does matter.
Christ set the example. Follow that example and not the culture.
Obviously whoever wrote this needs to GET A LIFE and quit worrying about what other churches are doing. If you don't like NewSpring Church then don't come there and watch and listen just so you can bash my preacher on the internet!! God Bless!
ReplyDeletePerry Noble, his church, and so many who comment on this thread have no idea what Christianity is. Let's refresh some memories. Jesus Christ is God made a man who was fully God and fully man. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the 3rd Day. He ascended into Heaven and sent the Holy Spirit so that those who repent of their sin and believe in Him as their Savior, Lord, and God would be born of the Holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteOnce born of the Holy Spirit, we have a personal relationship with God. We strive to grow in that relationship; and to be conformed and transformed into the image of God in Christ from within in the process of sanctification. We are to bring the Kingdom of Heaven on earth as in Heaven by preaching the gospel and making disciples of Jesus Christ of all those who come to Christ.
Simple short story.
Christianity is not a dance craze.
It's not a rock band.
It's not a social club.
If people are bored with Christianity and they want a dance craze, a rock band, and a social club calling that "reaching people for Christ"... then they are of the antichrist. They are not of the true Christian faith.
Satan offers you a dance craze, a rock band, and a social club. Satan particularly likes it when you are not happy just living your life as a worldly carnal sinner... but you "decide" that you want to make "this" the "new Christianity".
Perry Noble, many of you say, is winning converts to Christ. No, he's gaining members to a dance craze, a rock band, and a social club that is of the world and carnal and seeks to replace the true Christian world with a dance craze, a rock band, and a social club.
You people are going straight to hell... just like you were sitting in a den of iniquity that had the name "bar" on the outside in neon.
That you cannot see the reality because he put the name "church" on the door... doesn't change the reality.
You're going to hell. You're in a false antichrist religion following a messenger of Satan.
Are we clear?
You're going to hell.
That is not Christianity. That is not the Christian faith. You are unregenerate and still in your sins... because that is clear by you not knowing the difference between a church and a bar... and calling a bar a church.
Perry is a bartender in a bar... not a pastor in a church. Wake up.