tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post2462477100694438520..comments2024-03-07T00:24:23.674-05:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Mac Brunson: Let God VindicateFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-79111888494615907492008-05-03T09:02:00.000-04:002008-05-03T09:02:00.000-04:00Micah,LET IT GO! You just keep beating the same d...Micah,<BR/><BR/>LET IT GO! You just keep beating the same dead horse. The actions of our pastor cannot be justified by you or anyone else. He has come to FBC to get whatever he can, collect as many paychecks as possible (his, his wife's, his son's) and then leave the mess for us to pick up. Just let him do it in peace while giving us a few (and I do mean a few) good sermons in the process. <BR/><BR/>Secrecy is how things function at FBC. You can't and don't know any more than anyone else. It's the culture of the place. When things do eventually blow up, we will need as many dedicated members as possible to help clean up the mess. Save your energy for then, ok?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-28364901839698110292008-05-03T08:55:00.000-04:002008-05-03T08:55:00.000-04:00I want to address the "MESS" comment about the sit...I want to address the "MESS" comment about the situation of some of the ministries. I'm just continually amazed at how much a "family" church requires families to sacrifice. We have two kids in the choirs there. Right now, rehersals are running us ragged! The one last Thursday was scheduled until 9:00 PM!! How are we supposed to keep to any kind of schedule or be rested for school/work? During FCAT week, they wanted us to cart them over and stay until late. We had to say no and I'm sure we were looked upon as "less than committed"! Give me a break! Shouldn't we care a liitle about our kids and their educations? Or, should we just get comfortable with the rest of them in the music dept and keep sipping the delicious Kool Aide!?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-2771127593937682592008-04-30T18:50:00.000-04:002008-04-30T18:50:00.000-04:00I have posted this on a separate Post from Watchdo...I have posted this on a separate Post from Watchdog, but would also like to say it here as well:<BR/><BR/>My post of Doug Pigg was merely my assumptions from staff re-arrangement , talks of the budget and little things I hear as I walk through the church. I admit that when writing the posts, I was doing exactly what I accuse another of on here and that is stating an assumption as a fact. My apologies for that, but I will say now that what I said of Rev. Pigg could, and very well may not be true at all. In fact, I hope very strongly that what I said happened, is the farthest thing from the truth. Furthermore, I saw Rev. Pigg while he was at the church and he did a lot of great work and was loved by many.<BR/>Now, Watchdog has posted several of my comments as a new Post on the main page...mature? No, probably not, but, neither was my post of Rev. Pigg. I admit that and hope to set the record straight right now with this post. No, I have no inside information. I dont know anybody well enough on staff to talk to about these matters with. I am sure that at the church, confidentiality is taken very serious, so I say now that no staff member, no Brunson and no one close to either families, Pigg or Brunson, have said anything to me on this issue. Why even say this? Mainly because I want to make it understood that my posts are my own thoughts, opinions and assumptions, just as this blog is someone else's thoughts, opinions and assumptions.<BR/><BR/>MicahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-21718999103100508822008-04-30T18:01:00.000-04:002008-04-30T18:01:00.000-04:00All of you are right in saying that whatever happe...All of you are right in saying that whatever happened in Dallas has nothing to do with you there. And I read and remain silent except when someone says (or even infers) that everyone in Dallas hated Mac and wanted him to leave. The vast majority loved him and were saddened by his leaving. We've had better pastors (but not recently) but we've never had better preaching. If you don't want the Dallas folks to chime in, don't bash what happened when Mac was in Dallas or speak to how everyone there feels (felt). And NO, I am not a family member or close personal friend of the Brunsons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-11015231091890514572008-04-30T16:16:00.000-04:002008-04-30T16:16:00.000-04:00Can SOMEONE STAND UP FOR OUR CHURCH, PLEASE!No! To...<I>Can SOMEONE STAND UP FOR OUR CHURCH, PLEASE!</I><BR/><BR/>No! To do so would mean we would have to identify ourselves and we are not willing to do that. The price is to high. Remaining anonymous is to our benefit and that is more important right now than standing up for the church. <BR/><BR/>** To put it bluntly for like minded people who need to remain anonymous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-64296907724774109512008-04-30T16:13:00.000-04:002008-04-30T16:13:00.000-04:00High schoolers not getting free ski trips is a mes...High schoolers not getting free ski trips is a mess?!?!?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-52435945687386964272008-04-30T16:11:00.000-04:002008-04-30T16:11:00.000-04:00Micah, I love you.Please give me a way to get ahol...Micah, I love you.<BR/><BR/>Please give me a way to get ahold of you.....e-mail?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-42323409220058823852008-04-30T15:02:00.000-04:002008-04-30T15:02:00.000-04:00Hi Micah - very cute. Talk about avoiding the iss...Hi Micah - very cute. Talk about avoiding the issues on this blog, you are king supreme at that. But that's OK.<BR/><BR/>Question for you: Since you have stated here twice that Doug Pigg was let go for cause and that he was a liar and had to be fired, could you please let us know how you know that? This is a personnel matter of the church, so can you explain what position you have in the church to know this? If you're not in a position in the church to know this, can you tell us who told you? What other personnel decisions should we know about? Does it help to defend Mac to let everyone know that Doug Pigg is a liar and had to be fired because he lied to the Pastor? How would you know he lied to the Pastor? Did the Pastor tell you that?FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-65250102798588600342008-04-30T13:51:00.000-04:002008-04-30T13:51:00.000-04:00Why? would people on our staff for years and years...Why? would people on our staff for years and years, say God was calling them somewhere else?<BR/>Thats whats wrong with the people in the Church. They can"t SEE two feet in front of them.<BR/>I know everyone of the men that left, and they were told they would be replaced within a certain time frame, or would not be HAPPY with the NEW CHANGES COMING OUR WAY! <BR/>The BEST was SAVED for last. Rodney, Lewis Howard they knew what was going to happen. Rodney moved out the SMART WAY! Howard stayed till they PUSHED him out the DOOR!<BR/>LOOK people we have a NEW STAFF are you BLIND?<BR/>Choir, Middle School, High School, they have NO more Trips. Does anyone QUESTION WHY? Why have WE got in this MESS.<BR/>Can SOMEONE STAND UP FOR OUR CHURCH, PLEASE!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-2692880441747006332008-04-30T13:43:00.000-04:002008-04-30T13:43:00.000-04:00Oh Watchdog, lets be real...I did address your iss...Oh Watchdog, lets be real...I did address your issues just as you addressed mine. As for the straw man argument, that is perfectly fine....I commit a logical fallacy just as you have multiple times...<BR/>1. AD HOMINEM, by attacking the Pastors personal character by calling him hypocritical, a liar & a profiteer. <BR/>2-3. The RED HERRING and the BANDWAGON fallacies by bringing up issues of other churches and joining the ranks of those who blog against their pastor...<BR/>4. HASTY CONCLUSION by giving your own reasons for certain things happening when you know full well that you dont have all the details to the situations you bring up here on the blog. <BR/>5. The NATURALISTIC fallacy by moving from how things actually are to how they OUGHT to be. Such as how the Pastor has a house on land that was given to him, and how you claim he shouldn't in fact have the land because it is an "abuse".<BR/>6. The MORALISTIC fallacy by reversing, and going from how things OUGHT to be to how they are now. Such as how Dr. Vines lead the church and now Mac doesn't.<BR/>7. IRRELEVANT APPEALS that dont at all deal with any main issues but are just little feelings you have such as the Pastors stay on Amelia, or as another posted on here, the car that he drives. None of that has anything to do with the bylaws, the school or Rev. Jones & his church.<BR/>8. APPEAL TO ANTIQUITY by implying that the days of the church were better before Mac came to lead as Pastor.<BR/>9. WEAK ANALOGY by stating in your post that because Mac Brunson has qualities like Senator Grassley, he must be doing the same things as the Senator.<BR/>10. The FALLACIST'S FALLACY by discounting certain evidence given to you, such as with Rev. Jones or the very words of Rev. Carr and Rev. Brooks upon departure, simply because they don't support the idea's of this blog and because you cant understand the evidence given due to the fact that acknowledging them would disprove 99% of what this blog is proclaiming.<BR/><BR/>There, ten logical fallacies, by Watchdog, that he can not refute. Watchdog, no one wants you to stop writing and expressing yourself, but you pick at things to which you dont know the details too, and you give your own answers to the questions you ask and disregard certain evidence given. The arguments you give to back up your points are illogical, and ive proved it.<BR/><BR/>MicahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-59250077460857672502008-04-30T12:38:00.000-04:002008-04-30T12:38:00.000-04:00Anon - Micah was providing facts that I didn't dis...Anon - Micah was providing facts that I didn't dispute, and he has said at least one thing that I believe not to be true. He said that Mac has explained the land gift - I challenged him and I challenge anyone reading this to cite one example of when Mac has ever addressed the land gift with his congregation.<BR/><BR/>Not upset, just amazed.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-71701584719837762992008-04-30T12:11:00.000-04:002008-04-30T12:11:00.000-04:00I wonder if the reason you want everyone to post a...I wonder if the reason you want everyone to post anonymously, Watchdog, is because you write many of the posts yourself, making them up as you go along. The Bellevue Whiners Group at least requires everyone to put in a profile. You have published lies about FBC Dallas and its members, knowingly or not. And no, I am not a personal friend or family of Mac Brunson. I am no one of any importance to anyone but God. I am a friend of God. I read, study the Bible, and pray, doing the best I can to bring Glory to God. I am not perfect, none of us are perfect, including ministers. You constantly say that your blog does not effect others in their walk with Christ, and does not discourage others from being followers of Christ. What is there about fussing, fault finding, and whining Christians that is attractive to the world? The minute someone disagrees with you, or questions your Christian walk, you say you are being persecuted. That is not persecution by any definition. As one writer said, you have given us a glimpse within your heart through your writings. No one is trying to judge you, but the lack of the fruits of the Spirit have been made evident through your writings. You have turned a deaf ear to the very words of God that have been quoted by contributors on this blog, actually saying that the truth in the scriptures does not pertain to you, or has been mis-interpreted. It is time for you to face the truth and sort the truth from fiction. Satan will try to keep us all from the truth - it is his first method of attack - deceit. The truth is in the Bible. When someone does sign his name, he is immediately attacked and ridiculed. You do rehash the same old things over and over again. If there were any substance to your accusations, you would be able to openly confront the people you are accusing and bring about change. There is no perfect pastor, no perfect church, and there are no perfect members. When is the last time you have prayed for your pastor, your church, your staff, a person without Christ? Prayer brings about great change. God has the ability to control and change every situation when we go to Him in prayer. Trust Him with your problems. What are you doing in your church or in your life to glorify Christ? Are you just sitting in the pew grumbling? Have you read your Bible lately? How about a personal prayer time? Led anyone to Christ? How about witnessing to others? I have no idea what the answers to these questions are, as I do not know you, only your writings. I do not know anyone's heart but my own, but God knows each of us. I am not trying to accuse you or judge you. I am certainly no better than you or anyone else; I am a sinner saved by God's grace. I am praying for you, as are many others. I would love to see the joy of the Lord restored in your life so that all the world would know. You are a talented person who could be using your gifts to bring glory to our Lord for eternal good. Satan is playing games with you to distract you and others from the true message of Jesus and the ability to bring glory to Him in your deeds and actions. You are the only one who can examine your heart and your relationship with Christ; others can examine your actions, but you and God alone know your heart. One day we will all give an account for every word, every deed, and every action of our earthly lives to the Lord God Almighty. God, and God alone will be our judge. He loves each of us, but He is just and holy. Each of us should examine our heart on a daily basis and ask ourselves if our actions are pleasing to God and bring glory to His name. That is our purpose on earth - to glorify God in our lives. Ask God to direct your pastor and staff in the way in which they should lead your church. God has the power to do so. Look to Jesus - He is the perfect one.<BR/>Watchdog, I have been praying for you daily since you began this blog. God loves you and wants His children to experience the joy of their salvation and to be in fellowship with other believers.<BR/>I am anonymous as you wish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-71157888401507885482008-04-30T11:37:00.000-04:002008-04-30T11:37:00.000-04:00Sure, no problem.A straw man argument is an inform...Sure, no problem.<BR/><BR/>A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]<BR/><BR/><BR/>And my statements stand. <BR/><BR/>Micah bases his statements in fact. You do not.<BR/><BR/>Go ahead and get upset if you like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-45180005784710668082008-04-30T10:54:00.000-04:002008-04-30T10:54:00.000-04:00When i read this blog, I wonder what services you ...When i read this blog, I wonder what services you sat in Sunday. They never seem to be the same ones I was in. ??.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-58252347471743692122008-04-30T08:48:00.000-04:002008-04-30T08:48:00.000-04:00Anon - look up "strawman" before you criticize me ...Anon - look up "strawman" before you criticize me for claiming his arguments are "strawman". I addressed his questions, and will answer any others.<BR/><BR/>I noticed Micah didn't address my return questions of him.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-59484840597710661322008-04-30T08:37:00.000-04:002008-04-30T08:37:00.000-04:00Micah, you are the man.Notice how WD jus discredit...Micah, you are the man.<BR/><BR/>Notice how WD jus discredits your statements with "strawmen" responses? He presents no evidence he just simply calls your fact-based arguments "strawmen" or draws analogies from the world. I'm sure you do notice, you are intelligent and speak rationally.<BR/><BR/>You know, I spoke with Rev. Brooks personally weeks before his departure. He loved pastor Brunson. His parting words with the choir beautifully demonstrated God's hand in moving him to another church. Frankly, I loved Rodney, but was excited to see him follow God's leading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-70236288939356495802008-04-30T00:16:00.000-04:002008-04-30T00:16:00.000-04:00Awesome, now were getting somewhere. I appreciate...Awesome, now were getting somewhere. I appreciate the responses by Anon and by Watchdog. My hopes were to get you to address things that are important.<BR/>My responses:<BR/>As for the committee's, I don't know who was on the committee. My best guess would be the deacons (sorry for the word committee if it wasn't one directly). I would say the deacons voted, and how do I know it was everything has been voted on? Honestly, let me use humor, we all are Baptists and nothing happens without a vote in the Baptist church. Besides that, it is a duty of the deacon to make sure things run smoothly, and they do have the authority to overrule something the pastor brings to the table if they so disagree.<BR/><BR/>As to the post shaming me for what I said about Doug Pigg...Whether you like it or not sir, he was fired for lying and keeping budget information and other information a secret. It makes no difference if you agree or not, that is the truth. Sorry that upsets you.<BR/>Now, the others that left...I understand that some men would say certain to keep face and leave gracefully, however, you must realize that to say the men who left said what they said simply to leave gracefully isn't an assumption you can make. Why? Simply because they didn't say it, nor have they said it. What they said to the church upon departure must be taken at face value until they come out and say something different, other wise, you're making assumptions to back up your own argument. You have no proof that they meant anything other than what they said.<BR/><BR/>Next, I dont know if the Pastor had prior knowledge of his land "gift", then again, neither does anyone on this blog, so you cant accuse him of things you dont know the whole truth about.<BR/> <BR/>For Rev. Jones, I cant explain why they're still in a tent, if in fact they are. All I know is that the Pastor donated several items to the church to help rebuild such as equipment, lumber, workers and money. You can ask several of the Sunday School teachers about this because most of the workers were straight from the classes. I believe, by evidence shown, that the Pastor did everything he could for Rev. Jones short of buying him a new church, would be an unreasonable expectation to hold him too.<BR/><BR/>I disagree with whoever said that a name doesn't need to be added to a post. Why say something if you cant put your name to it? Take responsibility for all you do and say!<BR/><BR/>Anon also said that it was wrong for the Pastor to do certain things because it "gives the appearance of evil" and that is wrong of him to do. I know the verse and hold to it strongly, however, I turn that on you sir...This blog has in past posts called the Pastor names, vulgar names, attacks his character and motives and it also makes accusations that are not proven facts, but someone's idea's. You tell me, does name calling and unproven accusations, personal attacks and questioned motives based off of unproven accusations give off the appearance of evil? Yes...it most certainly does.<BR/><BR/>Once again, I want to thank Anon & Watchdog for responding. I appreciate the time you took to address what ive had to say.<BR/><BR/>MicahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-84524969940145822832008-04-29T23:05:00.000-04:002008-04-29T23:05:00.000-04:00Micah - not avoiding anything sir. I'll address ev...Micah - not avoiding anything sir. <BR/>I'll address everyone one of your questions:<BR/><BR/><I>Why do you avoid the fact that those who, once on staff and now gone, announced in the pulpit that their leaving was due to Gods calling and NOT because of the Pastor, and for the other two, one left voluntarily and the other, clearly had to be let go? </I><BR/><BR/>Come on now Micah. What these men said publicly absolutely doesn't carry any weight in assessing root causes for their departure. Do you know what it means to be "gracious" when speaking in public about events that have overtaken you? I know facts contrary to what you are saying about the departures of our staff members, but unlike you I won't drag our former minister's name through the mud like you did with Doug Pigg. Shame on you for saying what you did about Doug Pigg.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>Why do you avoid the issue of the fact that the pastor had no prior knowledge to his salary until AFTER he accepted the call?</I><BR/><BR/>Straw man. This was never an issue, whether he knew his salary or did not know his salary. What WAS questioned and remains unanswered is DID MAC AND/OR DEBBIE BRUNSON KNOW OF THE LAND GIFT AND FREE CONDO USE BEFORE SAYING YES? You can do better Micah.<BR/><BR/><I>As for the "gift" of land and his stay on Amelia Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift.</I> <BR/><BR/>Another straw man. I know you Micah, and you're better than this. I challenge you to tell the people on this blog when Mac Brunson has ever, one single solitary time, addressed the land gift to his congregation. I'll wait for your response. I do acknowledge that he told the church that he was staying at a "condo" on the beach. This has not been an issue. But you are falsely accusing me of making his public admission of this an issue, when it never was. The condo stay has been brought up mostly in response to Paige Patterson claiming that he was not given a honeymoon by our church, when in fact the man stayed at a condo rent free. Mac's complaining and whining rang hollow that first year when we knew he was living large in a multi-million dollar condo on the beach.<BR/><BR/><I>If you can show me where the Bible speaks against giving and receiving gifts, ill retract my statement, but you wont find it. </I><BR/><BR/>I'm so sick of this argument, "show me where in the bible a man can't accept gifts." Get your head out of the sand Michah! The man accepted a $300,000 gift from a donor of our church. Not in exchange for years of faithful service, or because Mac was a faithful minister for years. This giving "gifts" to ministers by the congregants rather than to the 501(c)3 for which he works - is precisely the kinds of actions that Senator Grassley is investigating televangelists over. Maybe you can help me...did Mac know the giver of this gift? On what basis can this be considered a gift for "love and affection"? Who on the search committee knew of this gift? Who told Mac about the gift and when did they tell him? <BR/><BR/><I>It shows no abuse to accept gifts from gracious church members.</I><BR/><BR/>Would you please tell Senator Grassley that sir? <BR/><BR/><I>His office suite...this I know nothing about. I do know that the pastor had to have an office and Dr. Vines' old office was renovated for new staff, and the plans for the office was voted on and approved by a committee at the church.</I><BR/><BR/>Great! What committee approved it? Can you tell us how much was spent on that office suite? So Dr. Vine's office was renovated for other staff members? That's news to me. <BR/><BR/><I>the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws.</I><BR/><BR/>What are you talking about? When did the pastor ever say he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws? And what WERE the changes to the bylaws? We know they were in no way mere administrative changes, because they included the addition of a discipline committee, among other significant changes. And whether they were his "idea" or not, does he not have the responsibility of making sure his sheep understand what they changes are and why they are made? <BR/><BR/><I>Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. So, shouldn't your accusations be against those the Pastor has to go to for approval?</I><BR/><BR/>Really? I'll take your word for that. Maybe you can answer these questions then: 1. What committe and who was the chairman that approved the "Time to Stand for Israel"? 2. What committee approved the 1/2 million dollar loan? 3. What committee approved the bylaw changes and the method by which they were voted on?<BR/> 4. What committee approved the making and airing of the 5 minute professionally made commercial for the relatives of the man who donated the $300,000 land gift? The short answer is this: we all know that in our church the pastor rules, and everyone goes along with the pastor. This is exactly the reason we are in the pickle we're in - we need some people to stand up to the pastor. <BR/><BR/>How's that Micah? Anymore questions? Bring 'em on.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-86405325649825178782008-04-29T22:56:00.000-04:002008-04-29T22:56:00.000-04:00April 29, anon 4:09 a.m. - you stated, repeatedly,...April 29, anon 4:09 a.m. - you stated, repeatedly, I might add:<BR/><BR/>"The church needs less critics & more contributors." <BR/><BR/>Are you Mac Brunson? Or at least one of the team? Because wouldn't that be great for Team Brunson? Or if you reworded it slightly you could say it this way: "The church needs less people holding us accountable and more people blindly giving us their money!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-70684246186367494262008-04-29T22:53:00.000-04:002008-04-29T22:53:00.000-04:00Micah - I was the anon who wondered who you were. ...Micah - I was the anon who wondered who you were. My point was not to criticize you in any way. I was merely trying to point out that just because a person puts a name on their post, or doesn't put their name on it, it really doesn't effect the credibility of their post. There really is nothing gained by having your name on your comments, unless you are a staff member or someone that most people would know. <BR/><BR/>I like your spirit. You seem to have some questions that seem to require answers are asking them with conviction. I like that. <BR/><BR/>I would respectfully disagree with you on some of your statements, but so what. We can disagree here. :) <BR/><BR/>A few things in response however, since I believe your questions deserve some answers. Remember, I am NOT WD, so don't hold him to what I am responding to here. Thanks. I will type in CAPS my response to your questons.<BR/><BR/>Your wrote: My name is Micah Stapp and I have attended FBCJax for 6 years. (I DON'T KNOW YOU, AND REALLY YOUR POST DOES NOT NEED YOUR NAME ON IT) Why do I give my input? Well, im just as much a member of the church as those who question me, and yes, I am loyal to the Pastor. (WHAT IS THAT LOYALTY BASED ON? IS IT A BLIND, GULLIBLE SHEEP LOYALTY, OR IS IT BASED ON THE LEADERSHIP YOU HAVE SEEN THUS FAR?)<BR/>It makes me laugh to see posts of some who come on here and, as I said in my last post, take Gods job of judging into their own hands...thats a fine line to walk gentlemen. (I DON'T SEE WHY IT WOULD MAKE YOU LAUGH...ARE YOU EXAGGERATING THAT PART OF YOUR SENTENCE? I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE FOR ANY MAN TO TAKE GOD'S JOB OF JUDGING WOULD BE WALKING A FINE LINE. I AM NOT JUDGING YOU OR ANYONE. JUST POINTING OUT FACTS THAT I FIND NEED TO BE EXPLAINED IN ORDER FOR THIS NEW PREACHER TO LEAD THE CONGREGATION. READ ANY NUMBER OF LEADERSHIP PRINCIPLES AND YOU WILL FIND THAT MR. BRUNSON HAS BROKEN MANY OF THEM. However, just as I suspected, I am questioned and the issues I raised were, once again, avoided. NO ONE IS QUESTIONING YOU. AND I AM NOT AVOIDING THE ISSUES. I dont know who the two Anons were that once supported this blog, nor the other who some assume are possible members of the Brunson family or staff or friends, however, whoever they are, it seems they, along with myself, are causing quite a stir on here.(WHY DO YOU SAY THIS? IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU DO KNOW THEM. I SEE NO "STIR" HERE.) Thats not the point...at least I can say for myself, my purpose is to cause nothing, just simply ask questions....like the creator of this blog. (ASK AWAY, WE WILL TRY TO ANSWER THEM!)<BR/>I would like to once again issue the challenge to address the issues at hand. (OKAY, I WIL BE HAPPY TO...BUT YOU SHOULD READ THE EARLIER POSTS AND COMMENTS FROM OTHERS THAT DEAL DIRECTLY WITH WHAT YOU ARE ASKING.) Watchdog, why is it you avoid the answers given by the Pastor, that have seemingly, sufficed for many who supported this blog...why not you? (TWO THINGS - FIRST I DISAGREE THAT WD HAS AVOIDED ANY ANSWERS GIVEN BY THE PASTOR. SOME ISSUES HAVE BEEN PUT TO REST (HIS SALARY, FOR EXAMPLE, AND SECOND WHAT BASIS DO YOU HAVE FOR SAYING "...SUFFICED FOR MANY WHO SUPPORTED THIS BLOG?" THERE ARE NO "SUPPORTERS" OF THIS BLOG. JUST PEOPLE WHO READ AND COMMENT HERE. THIS IS NOT A HIGH SCHOOL CLIQUE OF "US AGAINST THEM." Why do you avoid the fact that those who, once on staff and now gone, announced in the pulpit that their leaving was due to Gods calling and NOT because of the Pastor, and for the other two, one left voluntarily and the other, clearly had to be let go? I THINK THEY WERE JUST SAYING WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY TO LEAVE GRACEFULLY. AND I WAS UNAWARE THAT ONE "HAD TO BE LET GO." Why do you avoid these issues? HOW HAVE WE AVOIDED THESE ISSUES? Why do you avoid the evidence given that shows the Pastor kept his word to Rev. Jones? WHAT EVIDENCE? REV JONES IS STILL IN A TENT WHY OUR PASTOR GOES ON A MED CRUISE AND CONTINUES TO BEG FOR MONEY FOR NATIONAL AIR TIME. Why do you avoid the issue of the fact that the pastor had no prior knowledge to his salary until AFTER he accepted the call? THIS MAY BE TRUE, BUT IF HE ALREADY KNEW HE WAS GETTING A FREE CONDO ON THE BEACH FOR A YEAR, AND A $307k PIECE OF LAND, THAN NOT KNOWING THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF HIS SALARY IS NO BIG STEP OF FAITH. HE KNOWS HOW MEGA CHURCH PASTOR SALARIES ARE SET HAVING JUST COME FROM DALLAS. As for the "gift" of land and his stay on Amelia Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift.HE NEVER SAID THE LAND WAS A GIFT!!!!! AS FOR THE CONDO, THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT IS THAT IT SHOWED ME THE LACK OF COMMITMENT TO GET INVOLVED WITH THE CITY AND THE PEOPLE. AMELIA ISLAND IS A SECLUDED ISLAND ABOUT AN HOUR FROM THE CHURCH. THAT, ALONG WITH THE OTHER THINGS, MAKES YOU WONDER ABOUT HIS COMMITMENT LEVEL. If you can show me where the Bible speaks against giving and receiving gifts, ill retract my statement, but you wont find it. THE BIBLE SAYS TO AVOID EVEN THE APPEARANCE OF EVIL AND IT SAYS NOT TO CAUSE A WEAKER BROTHER TO STUMBLE. MANY IN THIS CHURCH AND IN THIS CITY ALREADY BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS A BUNCH OF RICH SNOBS AND BUSINESS PEOPLE WHO ATTEND FOR SOCIAL REASONS. SOME BELIEVE THE PASTORS ARE CHARLATANS. BY ACCEPTING SUCH HUGE GIFTS, IT GIVES PEOPLE EVIDENCE THAT THIS NEW PASTOR ALSO IS HERE FOR THE MONEY AND RICHES. EVEN IF NOT TRUE, IT LOOKS BAD. JUST LIKE DRIVING A JAGUAR DOES TO SOME PEOPLE. Now, the stay on the Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that someone in the church, allowed the Pastor and his family to live in their house while the Pastors house was being built? I DEALT WITH THIS ABOVE. Furthermore, why is that any concern of yours to begin with? AS STATED ABOVE, IT MAKES YOU WONDER WHAT HIS COMMITMENT LEVEL TO THE FLOCK IS WHEN HE SPENDS A YEAR ON THE EXCLUSIVE AMELIA ISLAND FOR A YEAR WHEN HE SHOULD BE LIVING AND WORKING WITH HIS NEW CONGREGATION TO EARN THEIR TRUST. It shows no abuse to accept gifts from gracious church members. IT DOES WHEN THEY ARE WORTH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS AND ARE ACCEPTED BEFORE HE HAD EVEN BEEN HERE FOR 2 WEEKS! His office suite...this I know nothing about. I do know that the pastor had to have an office and Dr. Vines' old office was renovated for new staff, HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS. I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT BEFORE? and the plans for the office was voted on and approved by a committee at the church. HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? WHO WAS ON THAT COMMITTEE? WAS IT PART OF THE "CALL" THAT HE COULD TAKE THE CHILDREN'S CONFERENCE ROOM FOR HIMSELF? COULD ANYONE HAVE SAID "NO" AND STILL KEPT THEIR JOB? Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. IF THIS IS TRUE, DOESN'T IT LOSE ITS INTENDED SAFEGUARDS IF THE COMMITTEE MEMBERS ARE ALL YES MEN HAND PIKCED BY THE PASTOR? So, shouldn't your accusations be against those the Pastor has to go to for approval? WE AGREE ON THIS 100%. YES! YES! YES!<BR/>Lastly, I once again touch on accusations, of subjects, that the creator of this blog does not know the full details of. I AGREE, WE NEED MORE DETAILS. PLEASE GIVE US SOME THAT WE CAN VERIFY! You complain about the bylaw changes....once again, it had to be voted on and approved and furthermore, the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws. WHEN DID HE SAY THIS AND WHY WAS IT NECESSARY TO HAVE TO CHECK THEM OUT TO SEE THEM AND WHY COULD THEY NOT LEAVE THE LIBRARY. See, you avoided that piece of information as well. NOT AVOIDING IT AT ALL.<BR/>Watchdog, you avoid reality to push your agenda.WHAT IS MY AGENDA? TO HOLD THIS NEW LEADER ACCOUNTABLE SINCE SO FAR IT LOOKS LIKE HE IS BUILDING HIS FAMILY "BRAND" AND WEALTH AT THE EXPENSE OF A GREAT CHURCH. Stop crying & moaning and answer these questions!I HAVE NEVER CRIED OR MOANED, BUT MANY WHO READ THIS BLOG SURE SEEM TO. YOU sir, stop avoiding the facts! OKAY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-16612785978210685842008-04-29T22:48:00.000-04:002008-04-29T22:48:00.000-04:00Wow! This thread made it all the way to Bellevue ...Wow! This thread made it all the way to Bellevue in Memphis. Glad to hear that things are calming down at Bellevue because I always loved Dr. Rogers and enjoyed worshipping there when I was a seminary student. But hey. . .what does this post have to do with Bellevue? Let's stay on target here, people! And Keith Solomon, kudos to you for sticking up for your leadership and congregation, brother!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-69196666919251297742008-04-29T22:26:00.000-04:002008-04-29T22:26:00.000-04:00I need your help here! I'm getting tired switchin...I need your help here! I'm getting tired switching between this site, the anti-Bellevue site, and the Two Rivers Baptist Church site. Perhaps you guys could consider putting your blogs together since they all basically say the same thing.<BR/><BR/>Even though I think you are basically wrong in having these sites I also entertain the notion that perhaps you might be right--and if that's true, then someone needs to come and get your pastors out of your churches as soon as possible.<BR/><BR/>Just consider my suggestion...RMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10769726517498571207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-50714723912911656842008-04-29T21:43:00.000-04:002008-04-29T21:43:00.000-04:00Excuse me, but to answer questions:My name is Mica...Excuse me, but to answer questions:<BR/>My name is Micah Stapp and I have attended FBCJax for 6 years. Why do I give my input? Well, im just as much a member of the church as those who question me, and yes, I am loyal to the Pastor.<BR/>It makes me laugh to see posts of some who come on here and, as I said in my last post, take Gods job of judging into their own hands...thats a fine line to walk gentlemen. However, just as I suspected, I am questioned and the issues I raised were, once again, avoided. I dont know who the two Anons were that once supported this blog, nor the other who some assume are possible members of the Brunson family or staff or friends, however, whoever they are, it seems they, along with myself, are causing quite a stir on here. Thats not the point...at least I can say for myself, my purpose is to cause nothing, just simply ask questions....like the creator of this blog.<BR/>I would like to once again issue the challenge to address the issues at hand. Watchdog, why is it you avoid the answers given by the Pastor, that have seemingly, sufficed for many who supported this blog...why not you? Why do you avoid the fact that those who, once on staff and now gone, announced in the pulpit that their leaving was due to Gods calling and NOT because of the Pastor, and for the other two, one left voluntarily and the other, clearly had to be let go? Why do you avoid these issues? Why do you avoid the evidence given that shows the Pastor kept his word to Rev. Jones? Why do you avoid the issue of the fact that the pastor had no prior knowledge to his salary until AFTER he accepted the call? As for the "gift" of land and his stay on Amelia Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift. If you can show me where the Bible speaks against giving and receiving gifts, ill retract my statement, but you wont find it. Now, the stay on the Island, why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that someone in the church, allowed the Pastor and his family to live in their house while the Pastors house was being built? Furthermore, why is that any concern of yours to begin with? It shows no abuse to accept gifts from gracious church members. His office suite...this I know nothing about. I do know that the pastor had to have an office and Dr. Vines' old office was renovated for new staff, and the plans for the office was voted on and approved by a committee at the church. Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. So, shouldn't your accusations be against those the Pastor has to go to for approval?<BR/>Lastly, I once again touch on accusations, of subjects, that the creator of this blog does not know the full details of. You complain about the bylaw changes....once again, it had to be voted on and approved and furthermore, the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws. See, you avoided that piece of information as well.<BR/>Watchdog, you avoid reality to push your agenda. Stop crying & moaning and answer these questions! YOU sir, stop avoiding the facts!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-77140069535608640082008-04-29T21:21:00.000-04:002008-04-29T21:21:00.000-04:00I agree. I don't mind people from Dallas defending...I agree. I don't mind people from Dallas defending Mac, but I don't see what relevance it has on his situation here. This blog is not about what he did or did not do in Dallas. <BR/><BR/>Its about the abuses here at Jax. The actions he has taken the first two years, the words he has spoken the first two years, are what this blog is about. And as someone said a few weeks ago, its so sad that he thinks he can come to a church and make the decisions he did and NOT expect for people to question his motives. Sure, go ahead and accept the $300k gift 2 weeks after wheels touch down in Jax. Sure, go ahead and build the million dollar home. Sure, put your wife and son on staff without telling your congregation what their ministry responsibilities are. Go ahead and live on Amelia Island rent free in a multi-million dollar condo the first year. Absolutely change the bylaws so that as few people know about the changes as possible. Go ahead and have Dr. Patterson blast our church as having recalcitrants attack you since you came. Tell us that a school is necessary to reach our city because no one is home. Hold an unannounced business meeting without perhaps the necessary quorum present to take 1/2 million dollars from our church to the school. By all means travel on our nickel to North Carolina to preach to pastors there and arrogantly proclaim you're in a "hotbed of legalism" down in Jax without explaining whether you meand "Jax" or "FBC Jax". Go ahead and DO ALL THOSE THINGS Mac Brunson....but to think for a minute that you would do them and that a significant number of well-meaning Christians will not be scratching their heads and question your motives is just plain nuts. Its crazy for you to do those things and the whine and complain in your pulpit about how misunderstood you are, and compare your situation to Spurgeon.<BR/><BR/>So go ahead all you Dallas people. Defend Mac, attack Mac it doesn't much matter now - you have your new pastor and we have Mac Brunson. What matters is what he has done since April 2006 at FBC Jax and what this means for the future of our church.<BR/><BR/>And all of you Jacksonville folks who seem to want to express that you're no longer a "supporter of the watchdog" and have switched over to Brunson...the Watchdog has no "supporters" nor does he want any supporters or followers. But if you were critical of Mac two weeks ago, I have to wonder what you've seen or heard that would make you change your mind all of a sudden, so I do doubt the sincerity of those saying they've crossed over and will NOW support Mac. But I'll let the posts through anyways.<BR/><BR/>Special message to the Anon 4:00 am poster this morning: something tells me you know some inside information on the land deal and other related items. We welcome your input here if you have it...all anonymous of course. ;)FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-84548965894168692032008-04-29T20:39:00.000-04:002008-04-29T20:39:00.000-04:00Micah Stapp,AMEN!!! and AMEN!!!There is some good ...Micah Stapp,<BR/><BR/><BR/>AMEN!!! and AMEN!!!<BR/><BR/><BR/>There is some good preaching on this blog lately!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com