tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post3366836602199022794..comments2024-03-23T22:54:58.661-04:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Time for Megas to Pay Their Way?FBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-33711315438850440472010-03-22T21:10:36.241-04:002010-03-22T21:10:36.241-04:00John are you still there?
Here's a clip of on...John are you still there?<br /><br />Here's a clip of one of those mega pastor who states it is: <br /><br /> <a href="http://martinluther.kewego.com/?next=1&sig=iLyROoafMCKs" rel="nofollow">..MY Ministry..</a>, <br /><br /><br />no mention of Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-11604837881450210732010-03-21T22:32:12.078-04:002010-03-21T22:32:12.078-04:00We shouldn't let our anger toward a few pastor...We shouldn't let our anger toward a few pastors and churches fall for such bad ideas.<br />___________________________________<br /><br />Louis - you are probably right. Unfortunately, the more brazen and abusive these megas get, the more this conservative will have no choice but to advocate one of the following:<br /><br />1) openness and accountability in all revenues and expenses<br /><br />OR<br /><br />2) tax purchases of the church, not the receipts of the church.<br /><br />Which would terrify Mac Brunson more? Having to pay property taxes on the 11 city blocks of property the church has accumulated? Or letting the whole world know his and his wife's and son's total compensation packages?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-32491463491209923262010-03-21T18:45:20.627-04:002010-03-21T18:45:20.627-04:00So, I am gone for a few days on vacation, and the ...So, I am gone for a few days on vacation, and the wheels come off.<br /><br />What a perfectly awful idea.<br /><br />I am glad that the founders of this country saw that religious freedom and the separation of church and state were so important that they are mentioned in the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution. And they are mentioned in the Constitutions of many if not all of the states, as well.<br /><br />People that propose this sort of arrangement need to go back and simply read history and think more carefully.<br /><br />I am glad for the exemptions that exist, and for the protections that exist even if the exemptions did not.<br /><br />I am also glad that the exemptions have been extended to not only religious organizations but also to scientific and educational organizations, as well. Vanderbilt University, for example, owns more property in town than probably all of the churches combined in the older section of the city.<br /><br />And I haven't even started on the general concept of economic freedom.<br /><br />We shouldn't let our anger toward a few pastors and churches fall for such bad ideas.<br /><br />LouisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-26752695875587693732010-03-20T18:36:49.865-04:002010-03-20T18:36:49.865-04:00Anonymous said...
"...Bitter, angry Christian...Anonymous said...<br />"...Bitter, angry Christians are playing into the hands of satan who is the instigator of all this upheaval in the church today."<br /><br />How about "...pastors are playing into the hands of satan..." <br /><br />Anonymous said...<br />"We are in a spiritual warfare like we've never seen in these last of the Last Days."<br /><br /> <br /> This has to happen so get used to it?<br /><br /><br /> It seems that in some countries around the globe, the last days have already happened and passed. The whole matter doesn't revolve around the United States, does it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-77594956528116985412010-03-20T10:18:10.399-04:002010-03-20T10:18:10.399-04:00oops, that last comment was from me, Matt.oops, that last comment was from me, Matt.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-28486277907505857312010-03-20T10:17:05.211-04:002010-03-20T10:17:05.211-04:00Anon, I am glad you had a good experience at the m...Anon, I am glad you had a good experience at the mega church. You might have changed your mind if you had sat in on the leadership's budget meetings. (wink)<br /><br />"The danger is that many who have been hurt are becoming bitter and wanting to do away with the organized church altogether."<br /><br />A careful reading of the NC will show that the 'church' is a living organism. A structured organization concerned with such admin details and who is in charge <br /> cannot long be a living organism. It is in our sinful nature to map the world's strutures of leadership and organization to the Body. We did it with kings, the state church and so on.<br /><br /> In the US, we use a business model. <br /><br />We are to be a 'peculiar' people and that is not peculiar. It is just like the world.<br /><br />I am not saying it is a sin to attend an organized legal structure of church. I just pray that folks will see it for what it is and even within that forced and limiting structure seek to be a living Body of Christ.<br /><br />It might be forced on some if they are serious about the Word. We know in Canada a ministry will lose it's 'charity' standing for tax purposes if they are shown to be critisizing another religious group or their practices. No more tax breaks for the organization or the donors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-28588779164484392012010-03-20T09:40:58.152-04:002010-03-20T09:40:58.152-04:00Matt, in reading your last comment to John Wylie, ...Matt, in reading your last comment to John Wylie, I both agree and disagree with you. Many years ago, as a new Christian, I was encouraged to read and study the Word of God and, most of all,<br />obey it under the preaching/teaching of a pastor of a large mega church. He would always encourage us to search the scriptures on our own. He never wanted us to just sit and soak up what he said and not check it out for ourselves. He never neglected the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I can tell you that I increasingly matured spiritually in that church. I also witnessed the salvation of many souls won to Christ at that mega church in the many years I was there. The church was one of the largest contributors to missions both here and in foreign lands. Therefore, I cannot agree with your blanket statements about the evils of<br />mega churches. And as far as accountability lacking in the organized church, when people gather in home churches, there is also the danger of little or no accountability and they can become cult-like because of it.<br /><br />Now where I do agree with you is that many SBC churches are becoming entertainment centers with music and programs to make people feel good. Some neglect <br />strong doctrine because it could be offensive. Many churches have gone down this deceptive pathway - churches of all sizes, not just megas. There are also the<br />celebrity preachers who misuse and abuse the very people who blindly follow them. And because of this,<br />I have walked away from the church I served and loved for so many years. The new pastor espouses the<br />seeker-friendly and "I am the boss"<br />type of agenda. I see neither as being scriptural and therefore have<br />graced the church with my absence.<br />However, I have not become bitter nor abandoned the organized church.<br /><br />The danger is that many who have been hurt are becoming bitter and wanting to do away with the organized church altogether. We are in a spiritual warfare like we've never seen in these last of the Last Days. Bitter, angry Christians are playing into the hands of satan who is the instigator of all this upheaval in the church today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-45089517775409850702010-03-19T23:45:20.432-04:002010-03-19T23:45:20.432-04:00"The reason I've posted so many comments ..."The reason I've posted so many comments here in the last two days (sorry everybody) is that I am concerned about a couple of things:1.) The move away from the organized church (I'm going to write a blog on my site about this next week) and 2.) A disrespect for all paid pastors."<br /><br />Brother Wylie,<br /><br />I appreciate your comments and understand your concerns but I think they are misplaced. I say that out of concern for the Body of Christ.<br /><br />I may say some things here that anger you but I hope you will prayerfully consider them.<br /><br />1. Organized church. While I do not think we will see a demise of the organized legal structure of 'church' in our lifetime, we are witnessing some serious movement away from it. I cannot quote you any stats except what is being reported to me from many areas. Folks are leaving the mega's. And it is not the 'Christians in name only' who are leaving. It is the serious followers of Christ.<br /><br />My last years in mega land, it was obvious, that all along, we were going for what we called the 'unchurched' who were really unbelievers or those looking for a more exciting venue for their kids or themselves. We attracted the Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, etc. We were basically growing by having better marketing tactics which focused on felt needs.<br /><br />It is what we become when we are trying to attract such folks that is the real concern. And it is too lengthy to go into here.<br /><br />This is going to sting but I am going to say it. I believe God is calling out a serious remnant from the temples of entertainment and big business. I do not believe they are the 'real' Body of Christ. (Actually, I know they aren't but don't want to debate that) I think they do 'good' things in their communities. But so does the Rotary club. <br /><br />2. Pastors. Those who are really studying (who aren't pastors) are realizing this is a shepherding function that has nothing to do with Admin functions or even leadership over a 'group'. If we are truly saved, we are all ministers. Some are gifted with the pastoring function. (Which is not an orating function alone but can be included, I suppose)<br /><br />It is a real crime in many instances because we know that many never grow in spiritual maturity past their 'pastor'. They tend to view him as some sort of spiritual guru. That was never intended.<br /><br />We are not teaching people to seek and trust the indwelling Holy Spirit. To do so would mean we do not need paid professionals. In the past 3 years, one of the most spiritual and godly men that I know owns a small manufacturing plant. He never attended seminary but has devoted himself to prayer and study. In return, he listens to others teach from the Word and all are encouraged to test what each other teaches from the Word.<br /><br />I predict this will be the model for many who leave the organized legal structure with paid professionals. <br /><br />...spiritual unity in the Word.<br /><br /><br />Blessings, <br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-50102111663534356532010-03-19T23:00:01.141-04:002010-03-19T23:00:01.141-04:00I have said things I'm not proud of and I have...I have said things I'm not proud of and I have apologized for those things. <br /><br />As far as time, it's been spring break here and I've had some extra time. In addition, I use this and other blogs as a way to keep me sharp and much of what I've learned here will be in this week's Sunday school lesson.<br /><br />I pastor a church that has about 75<br />in attendance for worship. I've been here more than 10 years and I love my people. Our town is about 400 population and if I were looking to climb an ecclesiastical ladder I would have done it a long time ago.<br /><br />The reason I've posted so many comments here in the last two days (sorry everybody) is that I am concerned about a couple of things:1.) The move away from the organized church (I'm going to write a blog on my site about this next week) and 2.) A disrespect for all paid pastors. <br /><br />Anyhow thank you for your kind comments. I can be a jerk sometimes, please feel free to correct me when you see it.John Wyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095740536301292747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-15701718274027974852010-03-19T22:44:40.830-04:002010-03-19T22:44:40.830-04:00John Wylie: I don't know you and I am new to t...John Wylie: I don't know you and I am new to this blog site but you certainly have been a target for those who are angry with mega churches.<br />I have no idea what size church you pastor. If it is a small to medium sized church where the pastor has multitudinous responsibilities, I don't see how you have the time nor the energy to write so much on a blog site.<br />That said, your comments seem to me to be very balanced and based on scriptures. You also identify yourself where the rest of us stay under the cloak of anomimity. Maybe you have said other things in the past to warrant such verbal abuse but I don't see it in what I have read personally.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-30455956207866405292010-03-19T22:31:26.451-04:002010-03-19T22:31:26.451-04:00It's not what all us preachers say it's wh...It's not what all us preachers say it's what the Bible says. I clearly said neither the pastor nor the people should get their way, but that Christ should get His way. I never claimed to have a special connection that any other believer doesn't have. If you read the scriptures I gave (I'm sure you did) you would have noted Titus 1:7 in the qualifications of a Bishop, it states that he cannot be self willed (translated arrogant in some translations), but it means he's not to be self motivated. <br /><br />Additionally, the people are not to be self willed. 1 Cor. 13:5; Phil. 2:1-5John Wyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095740536301292747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-9753696241219451412010-03-19T18:02:42.956-04:002010-03-19T18:02:42.956-04:00John Wylie said...
"How about of Christ,...John Wylie said...<br /><br /> "How about of Christ, by Christ, and for Christ?"<br /><br />That's what all you preachers say to get YOUR way, like you have a special connection (the ANOINTED) that no one else has.<br /><br />Keep it up JohnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-8823399277486837222010-03-19T17:13:42.519-04:002010-03-19T17:13:42.519-04:00John: That is exactly the point!!!! Christ is supp...John: That is exactly the point!!!! Christ is supposed to be preimminent!!!! This is exactly the problem with the clergy and the churches today. Christ takes a back seat to the celebrity preachers, whose main focus IS NOT SOULS being SAVED or even TEACHING and PREACHING the BIBLE!!!! The main focus for these people is how do I get the money, the lifestyle and demand that I be elevated above accountability, to man now but to God later. They fool themselves if they believe they "get by" with this. Many see what's happening and are voting with their wallets and their feet. They are leaving!!! But, the worst is yet to come for these "pulpit pretenders", they will answer to God on Judgement Day and they will be unable to defend any of their actions. THAT WILL BE ACCOUNTABILITY!!! Much better for them if they GET SAVED and REPENT now as we all should before facing God. They think they are above questioning, and they have others backing them up so they think because they have a "following" that they are in the right. <br /><br />Matt:7:221-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. vs.22 Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? vs.23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-47800026343258961952010-03-19T14:10:08.416-04:002010-03-19T14:10:08.416-04:00How about of Christ, by Christ, and for Christ? T...How about of Christ, by Christ, and for Christ? The problem with all church conflict is this issue of who will have their way. Neither the pastor nor the people are supposed to get their way, but Christ is get His way. Titus 1:7; 2 Timothy 4:1-4; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 3:21John Wyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16095740536301292747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-33821693184666993162010-03-19T12:47:08.517-04:002010-03-19T12:47:08.517-04:00I guess the churches ".. of the people, by th...I guess the churches ".. of the people, by the people, for the people" are no longer, <br /><br />Its now ".. of the Pastors, by the Pastors, for the Pastors"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-48391854842176551322010-03-19T12:17:07.388-04:002010-03-19T12:17:07.388-04:00Blame the ones that have created this problem...pr...Blame the ones that have created this problem...preachers themselves. When one is so arrogant as to thumb their nose when asked for accountability of money and ministry, then expect no or very little sympathy. No one hates the church, no one hates preachers on this blog. <br />==================================<br />Agreed:<br />As seasoned believers I personally believe we have a responsibility to express to the new "babes in Christ" our experiences in what we see going on in today's MEGA churches that is so very very wrong.<br /><br />I'm thankful for this popular blog (and yes, it is a very popular believers blog) as it has become a way for our voice to be heard world wide and to many it brings daily encouragement. <br /><br />Note to Matt: You are 'one' of my favorites - I think of you as our mediator, as you always seem to pen the right words and always do so as a gentlemen. :>)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-42412975164554909952010-03-19T12:16:38.487-04:002010-03-19T12:16:38.487-04:00Blame the ones that have created this problem...pr...Blame the ones that have created this problem...preachers themselves. When one is so arrogant as to thumb their nose when asked for accountability of money and ministry, then expect no or very little sympathy. No one hates the church, no one hates preachers on this blog. <br />==================================<br />Agreed:<br />As seasoned believers I personally believe we have a responsibility to express to the new "babes in Christ" our experiences in what we see going on in today's MEGA churches that is so very very wrong.<br /><br />I'm thankful for this popular blog (and yes, it is a very popular believers blog) as it has become a way for our voice to be heard world wide and to many it brings daily encouragement. <br /><br />Note to Matt: You are 'one' of my favorites - I think of you as our mediator, as you always seem to pen the right words and always do so as a gentlemen. :>)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-53821440436605644572010-03-19T10:57:09.881-04:002010-03-19T10:57:09.881-04:00"PS: I do think taxing the church...even mega..."PS: I do think taxing the church...even mega's, is the answer. I prefer to warn folks to get out of them...fast...and let them die a natural death."<br /><br />It is confusing when you leave out one word that completely changes your meaning.<br /><br />I meant to say that 'taxing the church is NOT the answer'...<br /><br />But we may want to ask ourselves why cult figures are attracted to the legal 'church' structure. Scientologists and Muslims mosques/Imams get the same tax breaks.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-78457468140658540092010-03-19T10:46:50.625-04:002010-03-19T10:46:50.625-04:00Anonymous said...
"PS: I do think taxing the ...Anonymous said...<br />"PS: I do think taxing the church...even mega's, is the answer. I prefer to warn folks to get out of them...fast...and let them die a natural death."<br /><br />Yea, get out fast and let those greedy pastors keep all the goodies $$$$$$$$$$$$$Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-8791870258994461132010-03-19T10:14:14.249-04:002010-03-19T10:14:14.249-04:00Mr Wylie: I am afraid you have directed your anger...Mr Wylie: I am afraid you have directed your anger at those of us that have stopped believeing everything that comes out of the preachers mouth. We have been victims of stupidity long enough. It has been stated here over and over that many of us have come to recognize the real from the false. Sometimes due to the treatment we have received at the hands of an ego ridden preacher. Again, no one wants any type of vengance on any one. We just want accountability and truthfulness. When preachers set themselves up to be THE AUTHORITY with no accountability, things change in the area of trust! We see many getting rich off of the church while the demand for more goes on. The arrogance is gauling. As has also been stated here over and over, we also recognize the legitimate God called pastor that is truly doing Gods work. We sincerely wish them success and blessings as they must contend for souls, under the difficult circumstances of (as was mentioned earlier) a poisioned atmosphere brought about by the "professional preacher", in it for the money and perks. I think maybe you might have some righteous indignation toward the other preachers that have made your job more difficult. Don't blame people that have seen what is happening in the churches. Blame the ones that have created this problem...preachers themselves. When one is so arrogant as to thumb their nose when asked for accountability of money and ministry, then expect no or very little sympathy. No one hates the church, no one hates preachers on this blog. and no one hates you. But, neither do we blindly give a pass just because (not you) a preacher says, through actions and words. "I am above accountability". God bless you gentlemen who are still in it for the Lord!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-60481361199365062402010-03-19T09:58:23.228-04:002010-03-19T09:58:23.228-04:00"I worry that many hurt brothers and sisters ..."I worry that many hurt brothers and sisters will so lash out at the organized church that they will succeed at what the liberals would like to do. "<br /><br />Brother Wylie,<br /><br />Do you not see you present a false choice in your comments?<br /><br />Here is an example:<br /><br />"Certainly if you want to give additional funds to the gov't, please do so. But, don't join the liberals in wanting to tax the church. That's not the answer."<br /><br />You are only able to see a conservative/liberal dichotomy. This is understandable after 30 years of your leaders placing every issue & opinion into those categories.<br /><br />What do you do with a political and orthodox conservative who does not see the organized, institutional church in the NC scriptures? The one with a government legal structure for tax purposes. Certainly that person is not a liberal. A Libertarian, perhaps. And not of the Randian stripe, either.<br /><br />The fact is the institutional church is starting to look more and more like our bloated greedy government and the badly run companies that give the CEO a nice bonus anyway and take stimulus money to stay in business.<br /><br />Matt<br /><br />PS: I do think taxing the church...even mega's, is the answer. I prefer to warn folks to get out of them...fast...and let them die a natural death.<br /><br />But, I have been through enough zoning fights over everything from the landscaping in parking lots to saving the Buffalo clover that I know something is coming...and you had best be prepared because if the tax laws on giving to churches change, it could get sticky because that is where your income comes from.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-14298165919635264232010-03-19T09:56:09.168-04:002010-03-19T09:56:09.168-04:00What we all must realize and keep in mind is that ...What we all must realize and keep in mind is that we are definitely in the last days. We are in the church of Laodicea that God hates. It is only going to get worse and worse as the Falling Away of the church continues. Don't expect it to get better. Just look for Jesus to return soon!!!!<br /><br />March 18, 2010 8:44 PM <br /><br />I heartily agree!<br />And will He find us faithful when He returns? A house divided cannot stand. In our zeal to punish those who have used and abused us, we must remember Jesus said "If you love Me, keep My commandments." And one of His commandments is:<br />"Love one another evem as I have loved you." Jesus also cautioned us to check the beam in our own eye when we are concerned about the splinter in another's eye. Pastor Wylie is right.<br />You cannot pass judgment on the majority of churches (small, medium or large) because of the misbehavior of some. We live in an unjust world but we serve a just God. He will deal with those who<br />use His Name in vain for their own selfish motives. I have walked away from a large mega where I served for over 25 years.<br />I could no longer tolerate the misuse and abuse by the arrogant pastor and those who supported him in order to keep their jobs or in the case of lay people - their positions in the church. HOWEVER,<br />I do not wish ill-will towards the church I left nor do I want to see all churches taxed in order to teach some a lesson.<br /><br />Here's a good quote from Adrian Rogers: "We who have read the end<br />of The Book are optimists. Folks,<br />it's getting GLORIOUSLY dark!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-38365433349223575772010-03-19T09:24:02.122-04:002010-03-19T09:24:02.122-04:00John Wylie said...
".... you can exact some s...John Wylie said...<br />".... you can exact some sense of revenge for yourself. Further I'm not a fat cat...:<br /><br />You must be one of these thin <a href="http://www.articlesandbooks.com/NoExerciseImages/FunnyThinCat.bmp" rel="nofollow">cats</a> then.<br /><br />No Revenge <a href="http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/reindeer_revenge.jpg" rel="nofollow">here</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-71556149053201777892010-03-19T08:07:03.426-04:002010-03-19T08:07:03.426-04:00It is not just the mega pastors who are wealth dri...It is not just the mega pastors who are wealth driven. Remember they had to start small - somewhere.<br /><br />It is those within the Baptist Conventions and unchecked businesses that many have started as good salesman and who call themselves a church and use GOD and the BIBLE to get that paycheck.<br /><br />I know, I fought them in GA.<br /><br />Right BOYS in GA.Dougnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-49289309533640406142010-03-19T07:47:10.600-04:002010-03-19T07:47:10.600-04:00Impose a tax based on size of church budget.
The...Impose a tax based on size of church budget. <br /><br />Then maybe some churches would get more realistic with their budgets (and the fact that people are leaving, not coming) instead of perennially going with last year's $ plus 5-7%.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com