tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post7166873466337269747..comments2024-03-23T22:54:58.661-04:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Dave Ramsey on Tithing - I Did It All the Way Into and Out of BankruptcyFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-26933120901729714952010-12-30T08:36:49.925-05:002010-12-30T08:36:49.925-05:00WD,
I already posted a comment then noticed some ...WD,<br /><br />I already posted a comment then noticed some quotes you had from Dave's site:<br /><br />"He is already crazy about you. Don’t do tithing to secure your place in heaven. Tithe from a positive motivation. Your Heavenly Father said in the Bible to tithe before anything else, but it’s because he wants you to be a giver. That’s His primary motivation in wanting you to tithe."<br /><br />"You won’t lose favor with Him if you stop for a little while to get this mess cleaned up."<br /><br />How do we know if any of that is actually true? Because Dave says it? And he doesn't say that it's his personal opinions. He talks as if he's stating facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-32938598660922055652010-12-30T08:28:08.975-05:002010-12-30T08:28:08.975-05:00I was just reading a little on Dave's website ...I was just reading a little on Dave's website re tithing. He says the tithe was instituted by God for us-I guess so we'll be givers and that's a good thing or something along those lines.<br /><br />My question is how does Dave know this? Did God reveal it to him somehow? It truly amazes me all the people that go around explaining what God wants and why and God's thinking on everything. What could possibly be more ridiculous and arrogant than that? I mean people actually think that Dave Ramsey or anybody else has some secret connection to the mind of God!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-59155284492158604362010-03-08T11:08:49.390-05:002010-03-08T11:08:49.390-05:00What are you people talking about? I just read Dav...What are you people talking about? I just read Dave's latest book and he NEVER mentions the tithe or even giving to a church? Are you suggesting he says one thing about getting out of debt and good financial management to a bunch of kool-aid drinkers and another thing to people that think rationally?<br /><br />He does mention on 5 pages that "the third use of money" is giving. "not enough to turn our own lights off" but to the poor and to charitable organizations. He NEVER mentions giving to a local church budget. Hmmmmmm.<br /><br />Disingenuous at best. Manipulative of God's people at worst. I wonder if those churches that promote him make sure (wink, wink) he will emphasize tithing no matter how bleak the situation is of God's people coming to his seminar for help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-64556868135571970542010-03-06T16:53:15.985-05:002010-03-06T16:53:15.985-05:00Anon 5:17pm. You are so astute. This is the real r...Anon 5:17pm. You are so astute. This is the real reason baptist are losing their members. Many join other denominations or just stay home...who can blame them. When the rapture occurs where will those buildings benefit anyone. They eventually will all be burned up. Its a hopeless situation and we can thank the pastors and deacon boards for what they have accomplished.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-74362847563837797222010-03-05T17:17:01.998-05:002010-03-05T17:17:01.998-05:00Integrity (doing the right thing when no one is lo...Integrity (doing the right thing when no one is looking) is missing in church leadership today. Discernment is missing among the average congregant today. Put the two together and it adds up to disaster. The culture is in the shape it is in because the church is no longer salt nor light to this world. The church no longer leads; it follows whatever the latest fad or gimmick is that comes down the pike. Instead of being a God-pleaser it is a pleaser of the masses. We are definitely in the days of the church of Laodicea; the days when people will no longer desire sound doctrine but will follow teachers who will tickle their ears. Sadly, the Southern Baptists have now gone the way of the once more liberal denominations. There are churches here and there with godly pastors who are teaching sound doctrine and are not living lavish lifestyles. But they are becoming fewer and farther between.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-52484447093180821432010-03-05T12:05:19.942-05:002010-03-05T12:05:19.942-05:00March 4, 12:15: What you are tired of etc....
Wha...March 4, 12:15: What you are tired of etc....<br /><br />What many of us are TIRED OF is those that take the tithe given by people that believe in it, and using it as their personal "stash" and living lavish lifestyles off of the church, tithers, and GODS MONEY!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-74481267946429536882010-03-04T19:38:22.438-05:002010-03-04T19:38:22.438-05:00"I do not know of one single pastor that sets..."I do not know of one single pastor that sets his own salary. Nor do I know of any pastor that demands, such and such a salary.<br />"<br /><br />That is a sort of strawman argument. In many mega's that is approached in the same sort of way CEO pay is approached. In Ed Young's case, he decided what to keep for himself. In many mega's a few men decide not only salary but increases, perks such as a line item for buying books and going to conferences. Some would be shocked at the amounts of those line items.<br /><br />Many mega church pastors are given down payments for their home as part of the package. Some are even given renovation money to build a nice home office. The list goes on.<br /><br />It is not that the pastor "sets" his own salary. It is expected and delivered.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-19602966769007157402010-03-04T17:26:02.687-05:002010-03-04T17:26:02.687-05:00Tom, (WD)
I do hope that we have some common grou...Tom, (WD)<br /><br />I do hope that we have some common ground on the "principle" of tithing. Time is of the essence for me now, but later I will post a further defense of the tithing principle.<br /><br />I do however believe that New Testament Christians are bound to live by the "principles" taught in the scriptures. Yet not because we have to, but because we want to.<br /><br /><br />As I have said, to "tithe" and not want to is a sin. The only way that anyone can be obedient to any aspect of Christ's law, commands, and principles, is for them to be the "want to's" of our hearts.<br /><br />More later, but I do appreciate your concessional tone of debate with me over this issue. <br /><br />I obviously do not agree with certain things that you've said, but my wife doesn't agree with many things I say either, and we still eat together 3 times a day. (sometimes more)CWMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-36297793949215390132010-03-04T17:03:36.825-05:002010-03-04T17:03:36.825-05:00When you give to support VBS you are giving to God...When you give to support VBS you are giving to God. When you give to buy Sunday School literature, you are giving to God. When you give to fund the salaries of missionaries, you are giving to God."<br />___________________________________<br /><br />Amen! That should cover the first million given. Now, what about the 15 million given AFTER those things that are not going to ministry? Is that also giving "to God" when Maurilio gets it? Or when the TV station gets it? Or when the Danube River cruise gets it? And what about the pastor, or God's man, is taken care of financially and is wealthy and set for life? Does the additional money paid to him on top of that qualify as going "to God?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-79842763424049597532010-03-04T16:58:38.140-05:002010-03-04T16:58:38.140-05:00I do not know of one single pastor that sets his o...I do not know of one single pastor that sets his own salary. Nor do I know of any pastor that demands, such and such a salary.<br />___________________________________<br /><br />When a pastor negotiates his relocation package, his first year of housing at the beach, accepts a land gift two weeks after he arrives, has the childrens building conference room renovated at a cost of $100,000 for luxury office suites for him and his wife and dogs, and when he adds his wife and son on staff...you can be sure, brother pastor, that he has also negotiated (ie: set) his own salary. Allow me to introduce you to Mac Brunson. And to steal a quote from Mac: "You don't know a pastor that sets his own salary? Well you know one now!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-22734169216476216732010-03-04T16:54:38.260-05:002010-03-04T16:54:38.260-05:00Jeff (CWM): you say:
"As to I give to God an...Jeff (CWM): you say:<br /><br />"As to I give to God and not to man. Amen. As a church it is still their reponsibility to care for God's man. When you give to support VBS you are giving to God. When you give to buy Sunday School literature, you are giving to God. When you give to fund the salaries of missionaries, you are giving to God."<br /><br />Fair enough. But I hope you agree that if I give to charities outside of a "church", ministering to someone's needs in the name of Christ, that too is "giving to God". And to say that my "giving to God" is confined to giving all of my first 10%, undesignated to a church, is not biblical doctrine, but it is greed. <br /><br />At your blog you have used the word "principle" when it comes to a tithe. That tells me that you don't teach it as law required for Christians to obey, but you teach it as a "principle", that 10% may be a starting point for a Christian, but not a hard requirement, not a threshold between obedience and disobedience. You know on this blog I have been critical of those who are teaching the tithe as law, as a threshold below which a person is sinning. I think its wonderful if a person chooses to give 10% or more of their income to church if that is what they feel led to give, not under compulsion. I don't even have a problem with a person teaching 10% as a conviction that they have and encouraging others to share that conviction. But its not biblical for pastors to hang the 10% law around the neck of all Christians - and when they try to tell Christians it ALL must come to the "storehouse" (church) that is again, unbiblical. I don't think you teach that, if I understand your view. Maybe we're more in agreement on this matter than you think.FBC Jax Watchdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-9231876543989303392010-03-04T16:54:38.261-05:002010-03-04T16:54:38.261-05:00CWM - on this we can agree: "My concern at t...CWM - on this we can agree: "My concern at this point is that there seems to be a war on the office of pastor that is coming from within the churches.<br /><br />Again, I say that it is a sad day."<br /><br />I believe the "war" was started against millionaire pastors and their lack of transparency. Yes it is sad how these charlatans are insatiable in their appetites for power, money and celebrity. It hurts the entire body of believers in Jesus of Christ.<br /><br />Let us know when your blog post defending tithing is up. I trust you will allow us to comment. :)<br /><br />LaymanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-74752075564767302212010-03-04T16:23:51.400-05:002010-03-04T16:23:51.400-05:00" have always conceded and will always conced..." have always conceded and will always concede that hirelings exist, and must always be exposed and rejected. But the sentiment now seems to be that most pastors are hirelings, and unworthy to be viewed as having a divine calling of God."<br /><br />CMW,<br /><br />Brother, you still do not get it. Every single Born Again believer has a divine calling of God. There are no professional Christians. There is no specially anointed caste of Christian. Every single Born Again believer is given a spiritual gift(s) and called to exercise that gifting. Every single Born Again believer is in the Holy Priesthood. <br /><br />Sadly, the present traditions inhibit the work of the Holy Spirit in the Body. <br /><br /><br />"There are those who will never see that the New Testament Christians are to tithe, because they do not want to see it"<br /><br />Brother, I am always open to being corrected from the Word. Show me where the tithe is commanded in the New Covenant Body of Believers instead of continuing to rebuke us that we just do not want to see it. Rebuking is easy. Engaging us is harder. <br /><br />Show it to us, please.<br /><br />Again, for the record, I have not witnessed anyone here saying that Christians should not give.<br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-73966698770040815132010-03-04T16:01:56.304-05:002010-03-04T16:01:56.304-05:00Bro. Layman,
I do not know of one single pastor t...Bro. Layman,<br /><br />I do not know of one single pastor that sets his own salary. Nor do I know of any pastor that demands, such and such a salary.<br /><br />What I do know is that in the three churches that I have pastored in the last 20 years, is that I have kept my nose out of what the church paid to the best of my ability, and merely accepted whatever they provided.<br /><br />Now that seems to be okay with you, as long as what they provide by vote of the congregation fits within what you deem to be acceptable.<br /><br />I was criticized when I accepted $100/ week. I was criticized at $500/week, as well as $900/week. My point is that regardless of what the pastor is being paid, it seems that just the fact that he is paid is a problem point for many that I am hearing and reading today. Hence my statement about animus against the office of pastor, and full time ministry period.<br /><br />It is strange to me that they want to offer it, and then get angry when it is accepted. <br /><br />As to I give to God and not to man. Amen. As a church it is still their reponsibility to care for God's man. When you give to support VBS you are giving to God. When you give to buy Sunday School literature, you are giving to God. When you give to fund the salaries of missionaries, you are giving to God.<br /><br />Now that being said, the tithe is in fact a Biblical principle. I can, have, and will defend that later on my own blog.<br /><br />My concern at this point is that there seems to be a war on the office of pastor that is coming from within the churches.<br /><br />Again, I say that it is a sad day.CWMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-23779760057868148622010-03-04T15:44:26.318-05:002010-03-04T15:44:26.318-05:00"Now as to my comment. I have never seen such...<i>"Now as to my comment. I have never seen such animus toward the office of pastor in general, from congregations like I am seeing and hearing now days."</i><br /><br />If only Algore had invented the internet 30 years sooner.... Have you asked yourself why this is? There's always been greed and abuse in the ministry. Certainly not all or even most pastors are like this. Most aren't. We don't hear about them very often which is a shame. It's just that we're hearing more about the greedy hirelings now because of the internet, and unfortunately there's guilt by association. Perhaps if their fellow pastors would speak out against the greed and power trips and man-worship we seem to be seeing so much of today they wouldn't be unfairly lumped together.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-8752973973167524282010-03-04T14:44:35.776-05:002010-03-04T14:44:35.776-05:00Layman I totally agree with your March 4, 2010 2:2...Layman I totally agree with your March 4, 2010 2:26 PM comment!!!Bro./Pastor Rod H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-20472316782741728792010-03-04T14:26:01.882-05:002010-03-04T14:26:01.882-05:00CWM - you make some good points. I agree not all p...CWM - you make some good points. I agree not all pastors are hirelings. Just those that accept $307,000 land gifts two weeks after they accept the job; and who live rent free in an ocean front condo an hour from the church, and who put their wife and son on staff, and who cruise the Danube, and hire marketing consultants, etc.<br /><br />However, when you state "There are those who will never see that the New Testament Christians are to tithe, because they do not want to see it" you sound just like those guys. Sir, with all due respect, the OT does not teach, nor does the NT teach, anywhere at any time, that followers of Christ are to give 10% of their income to the local fellowship of believers where the assemble together. It is just not there. And even if you could find something remotely related to it in the OT, it does not apply to Christians. (Unless you want to argue that we must be circumsized and obey the sabbath?) And even if it were in the OT and did apply to us in Christ today, there is no way we should be giving it to men who are controlling 501(c)(3) corporations to use to build buildings, and spend millions upon millions on operations while neglecting the ministry needs of others.<br /><br />LaymanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-66803170934993150162010-03-04T14:18:34.103-05:002010-03-04T14:18:34.103-05:00Here is why I am so concerned with how the money i...Here is why I am so concerned with how the money is spent. Pastors, listen carefully to this layman. It is because if I feel I am to give "to God" in obedience to scripture. Or if I give as I purpose in my heart. Either way, I must believe I am in fact giving "to God." When I see the pastor and staff exorbitant salaries and the colossal buildings and the marketing consultants and the advertising budgets and see ministries being cut and money constantly being aggressively raised...well I have to be honest with you, I don't feel or believe that God's money is going "to God" but to man. So yes, we have to look at how it is being spent if we are good stewards. God's man will spend God's money on God's work. Not on himself and his family and his luxuries. I don't care how talented he is or how long he has been in the ministry. <br /><br />Regardless of what you believe about tithing, giving to these millionair pastors and to these mega church budgets is NOT "giving to God" but is giving to man. Out of love and respect for Jesus, I cannot and will not do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-85919051651280337072010-03-04T14:13:02.467-05:002010-03-04T14:13:02.467-05:00And we might even be sinning by giving to somethin...And we might even be sinning by giving to something the Holy Spirit is not leading us to give to such as a building and not a brother who just lost his job. <br />___________________________________<br /><br />Amen! That pretty well sums it up for me. Even IF, I believed tithing was mandatory, I still wouldn't give my tithe to build a building.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-4379660572334822902010-03-04T14:00:39.087-05:002010-03-04T14:00:39.087-05:00If it means a cheaper car, smaller house etc then ...If it means a cheaper car, smaller house etc then so be it. The focus is that you DO NOT decide how much to give based on what is left over after you have spent what you believed you needed to spend.<br />___________________________________<br />This sounds good but is not logical and is not being honest. You assume I need a cheaper house and cheaper car to give what God is leading me to give. First, this is much different than saying the Bible teaches I must give 10% of the gross undesignated. Second, how do you know I don't already live in a smaller house and drive a smaller car already so that I can support my family? And third, has the church ever considered using a smaller building, and letting their staff live in smaller houses and driver smaller cars so more of the donated money can go to real actual ministry?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-13707413814957594632010-03-04T13:53:32.734-05:002010-03-04T13:53:32.734-05:00You seem to equate tithing with other "charit...You seem to equate tithing with other "charitable giving". If that is your stance then it seems short sighted. The Biblical discipline is not just "chritable giving" it is a Biblical mandate.<br />johnny<br />___________________________________<br /><br />Where is it mandated? Good luck with that. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-8151749224876822672010-03-04T12:15:05.425-05:002010-03-04T12:15:05.425-05:00Matt 4:24 p.m. March 3rd.
No Brother, I meant ani...Matt 4:24 p.m. March 3rd.<br /><br />No Brother, I meant animus.<br /><br />It is a noun, and it means "ill feeling" or "hostility" I did not spell it correctly, but I did use it correctly. It is the root word for "animosity."<br /><br />Now as to your diagnosis of my statement.<br /><br />I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be worried about the Lord providing a living for my family. My "living" does not ebb and flow with the giving in our church. It does not go up or down with offerings, and is not affected by whether people tithe or not. In fact most people in "tithe-teaching" churches do not tithe, and the ministry still marches on.<br /><br />I for one rarely preach or teach on giving. The Lord pays for what He orders. I have never believed that "fundraising is to masquerade as a stewardship sermon." Yet there is such a thing as Biblical stewardship.<br /><br />Now as to my comment. I have never seen such animus toward the office of pastor in general, from congregations like I am seeing and hearing now days.<br /><br />I have always conceded and will always concede that hirelings exist, and must always be exposed and rejected. But the sentiment now seems to be that most pastors are hirelings, and unworthy to be viewed as having a divine calling of God.<br /><br />Now the fact is that not all who teach tithing are teaching it from a greedy heart. Just as you and others accuse pastors of teaching it out of a greedy heart, the coin can be flipped to say that some "reject" the teaching of the tithe from a greedy heart. I do not nor will I put that accusation on any one person, but the fact is that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.<br /><br />There are those who will never see that the New Testament Christians are to tithe, because they do not want to see it. So I will not waste my time. I have made my case on my blog for it, and maybe will again.<br /><br />What I am tiring of greatly is that hostile labeling, and the attempt to quicly define and cast those who hold this as a Biblical conviction, to be crooks, and evil minded.<br /><br />Yes in fact this is a sad day.CWMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-46142718002638926102010-03-04T12:09:00.257-05:002010-03-04T12:09:00.257-05:00"Don't you know the root of all evil IS M...<i>"Don't you know the root of all evil IS MONEY."</i><br /><br />Actually the Bible says the <i>love</i> of money is the root of all evil. Money, in and of itself, is not evil. The problem we're seeing with Ed Young, Jr. and his peers is the <i>love</i> of money.New BBC Open Forumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18300115421477555376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-23156014725136125552010-03-04T10:04:19.281-05:002010-03-04T10:04:19.281-05:00Can you elaborate on what you're talking about...Can you elaborate on what you're talking about? Thanks...<br />================================<br />Watchdog!<br />Because you asked I will answer.<br />Should I apologize for saying what I did? Okay, I will apologize for probably being too catty!<br /><br />I'm not impressed with hearing week after week about the lifestyles of the Brunson family.<br /><br />Most men on the clock talk about their work - not on a constance theme of their family home life.<br /><br />As for the banner comment:<br />Mrs. Vines always said that saving seats was a sin and anyone was welcome to sit beside her. Mrs. Lindsay, one never knew where she would be sitting, as she was a people mixer. Then when Mrs. Brunson came for whatever reason a sparkly banner was placed in recognition of special seat just for her and the VIP's, and of course placed in a very friendly camera environment.<br /><br />As for the Pedicure/Manicure's:<br />Members often heat comments about the preacher being forced to go on shopping trips, baby sitting while his honey goes for her pedicures & manicures. <br /><br />Lastly:<br />We hear week after week got 2 plud years their many world wide travel expeditions. (river trip cruise comeing up soon)<br /><br />BTW: <br />Wasn't aware about personal trainers until the one blogger made that statment. And BTW, I myself get pedicures, manicures (no personal trainer) go on traveling expeditions, and member of social clubs. so no jealousy on my part. <br /><br />So hope that give you some inside with your elaboration question. Ouch, I must have hurt someone's feelings about critizing this dear first lady! If only they knew, how many do behind their backs.<br /><br />Truthfully, the real annoy's at this church is that they had no reason to bann your wife - they began shoving MONEY constantly beat the sheep to give more to support this wealthy preacher, paid wife & son - I no longer go to FBCJ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-31252721415142627392010-03-04T09:48:28.453-05:002010-03-04T09:48:28.453-05:0010:35 PM: "Lordship of your finances"......10:35 PM: "Lordship of your finances".....I know WD can defend himself, byt, I would just like to say that is isn't Tom that has the obsession about money! IT IS THE CHURCHES/PREACHERS. ESPECIALLY THE MEGAS AND THEIR CELEBRITY LIFESTYLES!!!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com