tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post7511875235564936014..comments2024-03-23T22:54:58.661-04:00Comments on FBC Jax Watchdogs: Jeffress: 'Just Slice Off a Big Hunk of Your Personal Assets' and Give to the CampaignFBC Jax Watchdoghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10740366031265491559noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-74497535851298201052015-07-27T09:00:15.253-04:002015-07-27T09:00:15.253-04:00Anyone know how much debt FBC of Dallas is carryin...Anyone know how much debt FBC of Dallas is carrying in 2015?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-13878039708896141262010-04-26T16:50:48.174-04:002010-04-26T16:50:48.174-04:00I saw that video of Dr. Criswell talking about a b...I saw that video of Dr. Criswell talking about a building project. That video was very old. Dr. Criswell has been dead for eight years and has never seen David Jeffress "glass New Age Shrine." How can he (Jeffress) sleep nights. He has totally used an old tape of Dr. Criswell to misrepresent everything Criswell said. <br /><br />This is just blatant use of a very dear pastor, W.A. Criswell. I just hope people who see that video will see what Jeffress is trying to do. <br /><br />Just like the old song, "What a difference a day Makes," so it goes for pastors -- and I sure do see the difference! Dr. Criswell wasn't perfect, but he loved the Lord and people, and I'm so thankful to have had him for my pastor. Furthermore, all the comments I've read already are so much better than anything I could add. <br /><br />I'm just sick about Jeffress new "campus" and his tactics in trying to get it.<br /><br />I'm just plain spent!!!Marciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18343294425297817940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-17898514897022296492010-04-24T12:58:20.599-04:002010-04-24T12:58:20.599-04:004:31, don't be dumb. Allow for typos ("pa...4:31, don't be dumb. Allow for typos ("paid [staff] and unpaid volunteers"). What do YOU call "results"?--opportunities to criticize as a STUPID person? Sheesh!<br /><br />April 23, 2010 6:55 PM<br /><br />I would be very interested in hearing your view of "results" if you could retract your claws for a moment and focus on content. Ad hominem usually means one does not have the ability to engage in content.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-43681349011929071302010-04-24T09:42:04.738-04:002010-04-24T09:42:04.738-04:00"ie paid volunteers or interns."
There..."ie paid volunteers or interns."<br /><br /><br />There is no such thing as a paid volunteer. <br /><br />Some interns are paid and some are not. Depends on the situation.<br /><br />The interns at my former mega were paid 12,000 per year. All hoped to get permanent positions. Most did not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-43315263707332420442010-04-23T20:28:08.529-04:002010-04-23T20:28:08.529-04:00In a Mega Church you have many layers of paid Staf...In a Mega Church you have many layers of paid Staff. <br /><br />At the bottom you have lowest paid workers.<br /><br />ie paid volunteers or interns.<br /><br /><br />You have to be familiar with Mega Churches to understand how this all works out.<br /><br />Mega pastor Steve Gaines implemented this at Gardendale after running off the volunteers and then paying people to do the same thing. This way the Anointed's gain full control of a church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-72425869875554857272010-04-23T18:55:09.758-04:002010-04-23T18:55:09.758-04:004:31, don't be dumb. Allow for typos ("p...4:31, don't be dumb. Allow for typos ("paid [staff] and unpaid volunteers"). What do YOU call "results"?--opportunities to criticize as a STUPID person? Sheesh!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-44092545357875316112010-04-23T16:31:02.163-04:002010-04-23T16:31:02.163-04:00"Dr. Criswell made bold proposals for change ..."Dr. Criswell made bold proposals for change and worked hard with paid and unpaid volunteers--and the Lord, obviously--to make the proposals produce results."<br /><br />I am always a bit confused on what people think are the Lord's 'results'. <br /><br />Paid volunteers? That is a new one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-38842075346597798422010-04-23T14:59:01.518-04:002010-04-23T14:59:01.518-04:001. Read the history of FBC-Dallas written by Dr. L...1. Read the history of FBC-Dallas written by Dr. Leon McBeth some years ago. No pastor ever was loved more by his congregation or city than Dr. George W. Truett; but, when Dr. Criswell arrived as senior pastor succeeding Truett, FBC-D was on the downside--level at best, and not looking good for the future. Dr. Criswell made bold proposals for change and worked hard with paid and unpaid volunteers--and the Lord, obviously--to make the proposals produce results. The rest is history (and, according to Joel Gregory, some myth).<br /><br />2. Annual Church Profile reports submitted by FBC-Dallas' staff indicates total morning worship attendance in 2009 as about 2550--an estimate (nobody really can count over 1000 people sitting in an auditorium accurately; Sunday School report: 2600--a more accurate number; baptisms reported: over 400, and more than 400 other additions during 2009--not bad at all, considering the condition of the SBC and most congregations of it).<br /><br />3. Pray.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-17317339286766546852010-04-22T18:34:58.211-04:002010-04-22T18:34:58.211-04:00If anyone want to know some of the history of the ...If anyone want to know some of the history of the ridiculous waste of money on buildings that has always been the way FBCDallas operates, read Joel Gregory's book: Too Great a Temptation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-57938735572308750452010-04-22T18:33:22.266-04:002010-04-22T18:33:22.266-04:00"But do not include the small minded, small f..."But do not include the small minded, small faith member who has no vision or care to see lost people fill God's buildings to hear His story."<br /><br />God does not have buildings made of stone or wood anymore. His "temple" is now US. <br /><br /><br />And the 'vision' is spelled out in the Word and it does not say a word about fancy buildings to attract people. If it does, then show me. Be careful about following a 'man's' vision instead of God's which is spelled out for you.<br /><br /><br />BTW: You sound a lot like Ken Copeland in the above quote.<br /><br /><br /><br />"I'll stick with the guys who follow a big God, not a little one."<br /><br />Your big 'god' is a buildingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-3557348136461823382010-04-22T17:39:52.311-04:002010-04-22T17:39:52.311-04:00"And I include the charlatan pastor who twist..."And I include the charlatan pastor who twists scripture to get his big enterprise."<br /><br />But do not include the small minded, small faith member who has no vision or care to see lost people fill God's buildings to hear His story.<br /><br />I'll stick with the guys who follow a big God, not a little one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-9605079878237975542010-04-22T17:38:39.926-04:002010-04-22T17:38:39.926-04:00CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...
I also think chur...CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...<br /><br /><i>I also think churches with multiple morning services really need to consider expanding if their reason is space for two reasons. Preaching is a tough gig and asking Robert to preach 4 times every Sunday will age him quickly and I believe you need the entire church to be able to worship together in one place at least part of the time.</i><br /><br />These two arguments have been raised by every preacher and every yes-man at every church that has ever wanted to build. I'm not saying that standing and preaching for 3-4 hours in one day is not tiring, but it's his job. You don't build a new facility to ease a burden on one man for one day a week. That makes no economic sense. And the second point never holds water either because it is at odds with other arguments in favor. If every expert predicts attendance of 15-25,000, how will they all fit into a 3,000 seat facility? I'm not trying to bash the poster here, but he/she should think through some of these things.<br /><br /><br /><i>The marketing firm is a very small expense, most of this is being done by our own staff.</i><br /><br />Small relative to $130 million, maybe. But not "small" in general.<br /><br /><i>There have been studies like this done as mentioned above in my other comments. I am old fashioned and believe we should look our best when we attend church, shouldn't the building also be the best.</i><br /><br />No. Not always. It's a common tactic that preachers use when pitching building projects to put out there that "we should be the best for God." How can you argue against that? It puts anyone who is legitimately opposed in the position are arguing that "we shouldn't be the best for God." It's a great tactic and it works almost all the time.<br /><br />But I will argue that "best" is a term that needs to be defined. Does "best" mean "fanciest, nicest, cleanest, newest, biggest"? Or does "best" mean "the most economical bang-for-your-buck use of God's money to build adequate facilities to meet the needs of the church"? I say it means the latter. <br /><br />Seriously, if one argues that "best" means the former, who not a $200 million facility? Why not a $1.3 billion facility, because the Cowboys have a new $1.2 billion stadium and we can build something better than that?<br /><br /><i>I can see why this looks very extravagent from the outside but if you had the opportunity to see the other options I think you would agree that this is a good plan, assuming you agree with building at all.</i><br /><br />I'm not on the outside. I do agree that some building needs to occur -- Burt, CEB, Hunt need to go away. Not be renovated but go away. But I don't the scale or scope of the proposal is proper.<br /><br /><i>Some folks on here are 100% against building anything.</i><br /><br />True. Just not me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-56961463901085747132010-04-22T17:38:39.927-04:002010-04-22T17:38:39.927-04:00To 4:38 --
There were some other designs conside...To 4:38 -- <br /><br /><i>There were some other designs considered but the construction we are using is considered the best balance between cost and quality. I heard this from a outside architect that had nothing to do with the church.</i><br /><br />I disagree with the architect you spoke with. <br /><br /><br /><i>It has been considered and may still be a part of the plan however when you consider the space needed for the school you only have one building we could sell.</i><br /><br />I disagree. Sell everything south of the Plaza (Burt, CEB, Veal, and Hunt). I find it very hard to believe that adequate facilities could not be housed in the space that is now the Plaza, Truett, Mary C, Cotton Exchange lot, and the existing (and yet unfinished) Criswell Center. <br /><br /><br /><i>The plan is to build based on what is committed by the entire church. Yes we have raised half of it from a few but everyone deserves the opportunity to give, no one is forced. As I said earlier, I am not into the approach and believe we would get real close without all the hoop-la.</i><br /><br />Excellent. I truly hope Robert sticks to this pledge, unlike Mac. However, any thinking person realizes that something less than 100% of pledges actually come in. So to be prudent, they should budget for 100% of cash-in-hand and 75% of pledges. And I agree that the hoop-la is unnecessary!<br /><br /><br /><i>The plan is not to build based on 3,500, that kind of defeats the purpose. Every church growth and church builder has predicted the the attendance will reach between 15,000 and 25,000 once this is built.</i><br /><br />Sorry, but I have to disagree here. If you were around when the Criswell Center was being pushed, you will recall Mac saying how church growth experts had told him that attendance would jump 1000-1500 on the day the doors opened. We both know that did not happen, and has not. I have not seen accurate attendance numbers in some years, but it has been steady at best. Seriously -- do you genuinely believe that attendance is going to increase from 3500 (if that's even where it currently is) to 15-25,000 just because of a facility? The church should be realistic and build for some growth, but not a quadrupling or more of its current attendance. Doubling would be very optimistic, in my opinion.<br /><br /><i>Of course if we hit that we would be building again, I can not recall but I think the new sanctuary will seat 5,000.</i><br /><br />3,000, or about a 65% increase over the Sanctuary.<br /><br /><i>We can all doubt this and only time will tell if we actually do that. I do know we looked at some smaller foot prints etc. but again bang for the buck, it just was not that much less.</i><br /><br />I disagree. I think this sort of analysis was taking certain "givens" into account. My point is that a substantially smaller footprint and substanially fewer bells and whistles would be substantially less money.<br /><br />CONTINUED IN NEXT POST...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-65912563630783328452010-04-22T17:08:49.577-04:002010-04-22T17:08:49.577-04:00"The plan is not to build based on 3,500, tha..."The plan is not to build based on 3,500, that kind of defeats the purpose. Every church growth and church builder has predicted the the attendance will reach between 15,000 and 25,000 once this is built." <br /><br />Why not plant churches all around the area? Not grand enough? Would not attract the folks with money?<br /><br />Let's face it, it would not work because none of this is about Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-61063768121959012012010-04-22T16:38:51.068-04:002010-04-22T16:38:51.068-04:00"I guess many of us question the motives beca..."I guess many of us question the motives because it seems so extravagent and unnecessary. I'm not saying the Burt, CEB, Hunt etc. buildings are not in desperate need of replacement. I just think it could be done more economically." <br /><br />There were some other designs considered but the construction we are using is considered the best balance between cost and quality. I heard this from a outside architect that had nothing to do with the church.<br /><br /><br />"Sell off some of the property (not all), take that money combined with what has already been given and build adequate facilities."<br /><br />It has been considered and may still be a part of the plan however when you consider the space needed for the school you only have one building we could sell.<br />The plan is to build based on what is committed by the entire church. Yes we have raised half of it from a few but everyone deserves the opportunity to give, no one is forced. As I said earlier, I am not into the approach and believe we would get real close without all the hoop-la. <br /><br />"A church running 3500/week does not require the square footage that the proposed campus contains."<br /><br />The plan is not to build based on 3,500, that kind of defeats the purpose. Every church growth and church builder has predicted the the attendance will reach between 15,000 and 25,000 once this is built. Of course if we hit that we would be building again, I can not recall but I think the new sanctuary will seat 5,000. We can all doubt this and only time will tell if we actually do that. I do know we looked at some smaller foot prints etc. but again bang for the buck, it just was not that much less. I also think churches with multiple morning services really need to consider expanding if their reason is space for two reasons. Preaching is a tough gig and asking Robert to preach 4 times every Sunday will age him quickly and I believe you need the entire church to be able to worship together in one place at least part of the time. <br /><br /> "Take the money that is being paid to the marketing firm and hire a logistics consultant to recommend more economic use of existing facilities. It just seems that the scale, in terms of quantity (sq ft) and quality (extravagence) is unnecessary."<br /><br />The marketing firm is a very small expense, most of this is being done by our own staff. There have been studies like this done as mentioned above in my other comments. I am old fashioned and believe we should look our best when we attend church, shouldn't the building also be the best. I can see why this looks very extravagent from the outside but if you had the opportunity to see the other options I think you would agree that this is a good plan, assuming you agree with building at all. Some folks on here are 100% against building anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-62056576299097602592010-04-22T16:34:30.924-04:002010-04-22T16:34:30.924-04:00"One of the things that continue to hurt is a..."One of the things that continue to hurt is at FBCD is the constant public slander and criticism by fellow Christians. We are killing ourselves in a way it no longer hurts the church we attend but we have many who go after any church they disagree with. People are watching and not only do some leave, many do not come because of the junk being focused on. I think there is a fresh and exciting "J"esus we should be talking about and focusing on. The world needs to know what we love, not what we hate"<br /><br />They already know. You love big fancy buildings and other people's money.<br /><br />That is why we rebuke you and we want the world to know we rebuke what you are doing and that is it NOT of Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-46554674401837840332010-04-22T16:31:53.799-04:002010-04-22T16:31:53.799-04:00"Church people need to realize that unchurche..."Church people need to realize that unchurched people are not looking for an ancient looking relic but something fresh and welcoming."<br /><br />Note the tone and verbage used in the entire comment. This person, because they are biblically ignorant, has been schooled in the transitioning the church movement. (They would not know this)<br /><br />Note the focus on 'unchurched'. Is the great commission really about getting the 'unchurched' in church? <br /><br />Why "unchurched"? Because this is about growing the church in numbers. Note how the 'gospel' and folks being saved INTO a Body of Christ is NOT the focus.<br /><br />The church is not for unbelievers. It is not even a place for folks to come and get saved. GASP!!!<br /><br />It can happen that way but that is not the NT model. It is an assembly of believers. Some are new and some are not. But all are believers. Unbelievers are not turned away but neither are they purposely invited to swell the numbers.<br /><br />Listen closely to these folks and the words and reasoning they use and you will see the footprint of Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Billy Hybels, Dan Southerland, and all the others who focus on building fancy cathedrals of nickels and noses.<br /><br />These folks in these churches are LOST. They have no clue what the Gospel really is about. And I include the charlatan pastor who twists scripture to get his big enterprise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-10994192811594309522010-04-22T15:47:07.289-04:002010-04-22T15:47:07.289-04:00To 1:52 --
Wow -- didn't know it had dwindled...To 1:52 --<br /><br />Wow -- didn't know it had dwindled that low. I'm guessing its a little more than that on a weekly basis, adding 3 Sunday AM, 1 Sunday PM, 1 Wednesday PM, plus various small Bible studies, etc. In any event, the 3500 is probably generous.<br /><br />But watch for this: soon after the new facility opens, Jeffress decides to go from 3 Sunday AM services to 2. This would allow the new worship center to appear to be more full (thus, "necessary") without actually adding any more attenders. <br /><br />Used to be that churches added services because it was more economical than adding space... now economics are out the window, and they add space and reduce services to justify it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-50297505785561448652010-04-22T15:31:37.159-04:002010-04-22T15:31:37.159-04:00Anonymous said...
April 22, 9:34 AM:
"Good ...Anonymous said... <br />April 22, 9:34 AM:<br /><br />"Good to hear your church is reaching young adults. Are they unchurched people or rechurched people?" <br /><br />Both.<br /><br />"What is your church doing besides sitting there that is reaching them?"<br /><br />Reaching out on a one to one basis, inviting them to join us.<br />And the Lord continues to add to the church.<br /><br />"Do you believe it is the building that is attracting them? Or something else?"<br /><br />Could hardly be the building since it is a 90 year old relic, as you would call it. The attraction is not the building but what's inside the building: a pastor and people who show them love, no entertainment - just pure worship, and good "meaty" messages from the Word of God. That'll do it every time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-53534785949646671122010-04-22T15:29:18.856-04:002010-04-22T15:29:18.856-04:00"The actual numbers for all three worship ser..."The actual numbers for all three worship services run in 1,800 to 2,200 range. Which makes your observation even more pertinent. I agree with your comments."<br /><br />I don't think a building should be built for only the people who come each week but for the larger vision God gives for His people to reach.<br /><br />How big of a vision do you think God could have for we supportive people at FBCD?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-31701627186996179792010-04-22T14:41:38.988-04:002010-04-22T14:41:38.988-04:00"Can a private organization build however big..."Can a private organization build however big and fancy of a building they want? Of course. I have no problem with a country club doing that or a resort or whatever."<br /><br />I need for private organizations to build these things so I have a place to go and relax with all the extra money I now have from not tithing. We need places like this to spend our money, not on a church building or salaries for people who don't work for a living.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-74621614376064624552010-04-22T13:52:11.875-04:002010-04-22T13:52:11.875-04:00Anon 1:14pm A church running 3500/week does not re...Anon 1:14pm A church running 3500/week does not require the square footage... "<br /><br />The actual numbers for all three worship services run in 1,800 to 2,200 range. Which makes your observation even more pertinent. I agree with your comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-73650156808863782282010-04-22T13:14:58.662-04:002010-04-22T13:14:58.662-04:00To 12:17 --
Fair enough. Let's not call it &...To 12:17 -- <br /><br />Fair enough. Let's not call it "sin" because you are right; we are all sinners and therefore it is the pot calling the kettle black. Fine.<br /><br />I guess many of us question the motives because it seems so extravagent and unnecessary. I'm not saying the Burt, CEB, Hunt etc. buildings are not in desperate need of replacement. I just think it could be done more economically. Sell off some of the property (not all), take that money combined with what has already been given and build adequate facilities. A church running 3500/week does not require the square footage that the proposed campus contains. Take the money that is being paid to the marketing firm and hire a logistics consultant to recommend more economic use of existing facilities. It just seems that the scale, in terms of quantity (sq ft) and quality (extravagence) is unnecessary. <br /><br />Can a private organization build however big and fancy of a building they want? Of course. I have no problem with a country club doing that or a resort or whatever. But the church has a higher calling, and it seems like $130 million would have a much greater impact for the Gospel if put to use differently.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-51301168844295262962010-04-22T12:17:39.629-04:002010-04-22T12:17:39.629-04:00"This kind of attitude is akin so excusing si..."This kind of attitude is akin so excusing sin just because God forgives it. Just because God is bigger than man's desires and methods doesn't justify man's desires and methods."<br /><br />I disagree, just because we don't like it I will let God sort out wether or not it is sinful. I know Robert well enough to know this is not about him at all and he is doing what he believes is right. Approaches can be distasteful but I think we need to be careful calling it a sin. Alot of people have posted how this can not be God's will also. Some pretty elaborate temples were built and the people's money paid for it. There are examples for us to follow but there is not absolute rule book on how to approach this. <br /><br />Don't take me wrong, I welcome the debates around these issues and understand why some of the folks out there have their opinions, but there have been many distasteful things said by WD and everyone else also. It sometimes seems the pot is calling the kettle black.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384632623933772727.post-70833034457822048402010-04-22T11:51:07.822-04:002010-04-22T11:51:07.822-04:00To anon at 11:22.
A building can help attract a c...To anon at 11:22.<br /><br />A building can help attract a certain kind of people. A building can't change a life. It doesn't take a prophet, just a Berean.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com