The questions many had coming into today's sermon were: will Mac come in and preach a loving, Bible based message, one that challenges pastors to reach higher and higher in their ministry, one that is a bit tough but mixed with enough love and compassion to steer people and pastors to Jesus? Or would he use this as an opportunity to vindicate himself from charges made in the blogosphere, even once again striking out at others as the reasons for his difficulties?
Well, unfortunately, it was the latter.
Not too much sheep beating today, but lots of shepard beating.
Just some random thoughts:
- at one point Mac was overstating the importance that pastors have on their congregations, that pastors need to not be angry, humble, must be holy...because the people they pastor need an example. Yes, I agree, its great for pastors to model the Christ life by being humble, Godly, walking with Jesus...but when he says: "If we won't be the examples for our people, WHO WILL?" Evereyone present likely had the same answer to the rhetorical question: "Maybe Jesus?"
- Mac really got on the pastors, and said that the reason people in our convention are tearing into Pastors (insert: "Mac Brunson") on blogs is because the pastors themselves are tearing into each other on the Internet, and because the lay people are so easily led astray we are doing the same. I thought Paige Patterson said the "recalcitrants" were the result of the devil trying to bring down "the man of God"...now Mac is saying the recalcitrants giving him and Paige a hard time is because we're following the pastors who themselves are blogging - who Mac said are "angry", "bitter", and "jealous", and a few other adjectives. I think the blogs are a symptom of the arrogance of people like Paige Patterson and Mac Brunson. But Mac can't look at himself as having caused his troubles, he has to look to outside factors and blame others.
- What was the name of God that Mac was preaching about today? I must have missed that part of the sermon.
- Then Mac had the absolute brazen cahoonas to say something like, "No wonder our people aren't trusting God with their tithes, when they see pastors negotiating salaries like CEO's or NBA superstars!" Now who on earth is he talking about? Are there many or any pastors in attendance in the crowd of 9000 that have negotiated NBA money from their churches? In fact, Mac Brunson likely is THE highest paid of any pastor present in the entire building this morning...he likely lives in the largest and most expensive house of ANY of the pastors present...likely is the only one who has wife and son on staff without having their staff positions posted...likely is the only one who was given and accepted a $300,000 piece of property upon coming on staff...likely is the only one who has lived in an ocean-front, 3000 square foot, multi-million dollar condo for one year rent free....and he has the unmitigated gall to mention "CEO and NBA salaries" as a major problem in our convention? I thought the problem, as Jerry Vines said last year was that there are too many preachers who have to beg for a $500 salary increase? Pastors, if hearing Mac Brunson utter those words doesn't show you what he is all about, then nothing will. OK, so he says he didn't know what they were going to pay him when he said "yes" to FBC Jax...but did his wife know the salary? Did he know about the land gift? Did he know that they would put his wife and son on staff right away?
- By the way...why wait until TODAY in front of thousands of pastors to make that claim that he didn't know his salary at FBC Jax until he said yes to our search committee? Mac, you've had bloggers and emailers on your case for over a year about the salary, land and huge house, and he could have lovingly explained that to his congregation, telling them how much he loves and appreciates the generosity of his church in so abundantly meeting the needs of he and his family, and that he trusted God to care for his needs and never attempted to negotiate his salary. No, he doesn't want to say that to his congregation, he wants to brag to his fellow pastors - none of which really care or will be blessed by that because NONE of them can relate to the extravagance of Mac's salary and lifestyle! If you stand today to tell the pastors that, why didn't you tell us that a year ago?
Well pastors, you got just a glimpse of what we have gotten for pretty much two years now...Mac Brunson lashing out at his listeners blaming them for the ills in the church. Most of us know the difference between being "lovingly corrected and chastised" by a pastor's sermon, and being beaten up by a pastor who is mad as hell.
Only this time it was the shepards and not the sheep who had to bear the brunt of Mac's tongue lashings.
I tho't he was preaching "thus saith the Lord". It was a hard message, but it was certainly bible based, and I felt enough love and compassion from him that I was certainly drawn back to Jesus. I recall Homer Lindsay preaching hard against sin -- and usually seemed angry about sin. And he was a loving pastor.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I am tired of everyone who gets in the pulpit, mentioning the blog. It's almost as if they been coached.
Watchdog - right on! Please repost my comment from the thread below. It fits with this subject better:
ReplyDeletePastors and Congregation: MAC MISLEAD YOU AGAIN, brothers. He said some of you negotiate like NBA players! Who was he talking about. Which of you attendees did that?
As for Mac, he may not have known his exact salary, but he had already negotiated the remodeling and it had already begun on his luxury office suites, he had negotiated that his Team Brunson was coming on salary as full time staff and he knew he had the oceanfront condo on Amelia Island and he KNEW he was getting a gift of over $300,000 from J.D.Collins. (They closed on it and transferred title just two weeks after he arrived.)
He thinks you are so gullible and stupid not to know that HE is the only one his sermon applied to. (angry, bitter, jealous, bad attitude. Just ask Vines and Patterson if you don't want to believe this blogger.) Instead of talking about salary negotiations, he should have said "some of us even think we need 6 bedroom, 4.5 bath mansions worth over a million dollars on a golf course in a gated community, have to drive the most expensive cars, and continue to line our own pockets with CONFERENCES, book deals, and preaching circuits." With all of that, he could live comfortably with NO salary. But you all bought his bull____ didn't you.
The more I read this stuff, the happier I am I left. While I do feel some of Watchdog's comments are nit picky and have stated such several times. If this blog is correct, then the pulpit turns into the pastor's attempt to respond, rather than not worrying about it and moving on.
ReplyDeleteGranted, I never liked the Pastor's Conference and would generally never go to church at all the week it happened. But if this is going to turn into a Pastor's bashing session, blog defense, and the time to what seems like provoke members of the congregation; maybe a lot more should not go too.
Paul - you said:
ReplyDelete"If this blog is correct, then the pulpit turns into the pastor's attempt to respond, rather than not worrying about it and moving on. "
Yes, that is most certainly what went on today. Mac definitely felt the need to attack those who blog (especially those pastors who do it because now its led to these stupid laypeople doing it too), and as an opportunist he decided to drop the line about not knowing his salary before he came here to this church. I mean really...that is so far over the top on several levels:
1. Who cares that you didn't know? If I did not negotiate my salary, or even KNOW my salary before accepting a job, that borderlines on STUPIDITY - so I wouldn't brag about it as though that made me holier than someone else.
2. Do you even expect us to believe that? Was there ANY part of your package that was negotiated? Was it just, "we want you to be our pastor", then you said "yes"....then you showed up in Jax, and they laid the number on you, they told you Deb and Trey get staff positions, they told you that you get the condo for a year, and they told you that the 300,000 land gift was coming? If you're going to BRAG about not knowing your salary before coming here, then be totally straight up Mac: did you know ANYTHING about your compensation package? ANYTHING at all? The land? The condo? ANYTHING?
3. Using your logic then Mac, it must be very un-holy for a pastor to want to know what the offer is before he says yes or no....and is it wrong for a pastor to negotiate prior to accepting a call? Why would that be wrong, for a pastor to perhaps reveal what salary he needs to care for his family?
4. Mac recently preached on those with critical spirits...(anybody doubt Mac has one after today?)...and Mac says one of the characteristics of those who criticize others is they tend to criticize those things they see in others that they dislike about themselves. So maybe that shoe fits on you this time Mac....one trick people use when they wish to criticize people's actions when they themselves are guilty of the same...they attempt to separate themselves from the group they seek to criticize by a technicality, or a trivial detail. I would argue Mac that the problem of large salaries in the megas is: LARGE SALARIES PAID TO MEGA PASTORS LIKE YOU ARE SIPHONING OFF MONEY THAT COULD BE BETTER USED IN MINISTRY. So if you are getting the huge dollars, and it appears you are given the house you have, then that is the problem, not that you did or did not negotiate for it. So Mac wants us to believe he is DIFFERENT than those other pastors who get the same money he does, because Mac didn't have to negotiate for it (if you believe that he knew nothing of his compensation package).
The most ridiculous comment it seems he made is the one about NBA salaries. Forget anything else except monetary value here. It is really stupid for the pastor of a mega church to say something like that to a bunch of pastors who in large part aren't there for part of a political convention gathering. They are there because they want to see what FBC did over the years that made them successful and take it back to their churches and implement it. This reason is why I stopped going to any service during the PC because to me it became a glorified religous show and a "hey, look at us and how wonderful we are" conference more than anything else. But that aside, when you are a pastor of a church that I assume still has 6-7,000 people in attendance every week and a multi million dollar budget, discussing anyone else's salary rings really hollow to me.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what OUR former pastor will do to sell those of you who still attend down the river tonight. I will go ahead and assume announcing he was leaving you high and dry in 05, claiming he "knew nothing about the next pastor and had only heard rumors" in 06, and apparently chastising you in 07 won't be enough.
Oh and for the record, since no one else responded. Watchdog, I think you are crazy! Pats win 34-21! :)
You guys are wicked and evil. I was at the service and thougth is was a great sermon and challenge to us pastors. It is sad that I even googled FBC JAX and found this site. I pray God have mercy on people like you who attack God's men. Many of the accusations you raise are straw men and are attempts to tear down a man of God. Shame on you. I fear for you on judgement!
ReplyDeleteGREAT SERVICES TODAY - THE LORD WAS GLORIFIED - AMEN!!
ReplyDeleteHello Anne B - thought I'd share your little email with everyone who reads the blog.
ReplyDelete------------------------
Hi Watch dog! I thought of you today. Maybe I sat by you or even said hello. I have someone who hacks well who is going to try to figure you out. (He also works for the FBI)
The sermon today was great for you. You seem to have the bitterness and hate come out from your mind and into your actions.
You can recieve little to no respect because you hide behind your little suit and fake smile. How are your children? They know who you are because you can not hide from them.
You are a joke!
Anne B.
Homer Lindsay was mad AT sin, not at US! Big difference! Mac just doesn't get it. Never will. And neither do those who blindly support him as if he were "God's man", whatever that is supposed to mean.
ReplyDeleteAnne B - go ahead and have the FBI figure out who I am, also. I am sure they will want to come and "discipline" me for blogging my observations and opinions about Mac fleecing us. I think an FBI investigation might be helpful for Mac too, don't you think?
Anne - are you threatening the watchdog by saying you have friends in the FBI? Are you Hillary Clinton? Come on Anne B - grow up!
Watchdog -as always, you are right on target. GIANTS WON, just like you told us they would.
ReplyDeleteThank you! I thought you would only post the gossip's like you and their comments BUT Im glad to see you are fair.
ReplyDeleteThat was a bit of a joke because you seem like a little bit of a physco and in need of the Family counceling department.
I was serious about your children. (If you have any) I know men with little character can bark loudly when they are behind a fence. Your children know you best and the Lord knows your heart.
I would love to know who you are but it does not matter because I know who does. God
Im in the No Limits class if you ever want to talk in person.
No apology or explanation from Vines for last year's hammering of his congregation. He did mention he was tired. That would have been a good time to go ahead and ask forgiveness for last year's poor judgment. We love him and want to forgive him.
ReplyDeleteAt least he acknowledged the choir and re-preached his sermon on heaven we have heard several times. Hopefully, that will be his last time in that pulpit, too.
He used to save his best for the PC, now he just picks up the check from Mac for either attacking the congregation or repeating a sermon.
Why don't you guys go out and minister to LOST PEOPLE instead of spending so much time on the blog bashing a man of God? Why don't you do something with the ministry you have and maybe God will bless you and your wife and children? I am sure your families would love to see you happy and fulfilled in your own lives and not consumed with bashing a man of God about where he lives. Maybe he sold books that paid for some of these things. What about you? Would you be able to sell a book if you wrote on? Perhaps you are jealous because he is successful and you are not -
ReplyDeleteIm kinda confused...didnt you give not one...but two farewell blogs? Why are you STILL writing on this after saying farewell twice?
ReplyDeleteFirst, it shows serious immaturity for you to look at one piece of Dr Brunson's sermon, twist it, and put it up here. You dont even take the time to evaluate whats being said. You simply rush home with pen & paper in hand, ready to try and rip apart what you dont agree with. And NO, spiritual depth does not equal tearing down the man of God, questioning all he does, and pushing your own opinions. Spiritual depth is is taking your concerns and questions to scripture...which I DO NOT see being done on this site. I see nothing but misunderstanding's and name calling...like calling your pastor a "pompous ass" on one of the other posts...if you can back that up with scripture, ill keep quiet.
As far as taking things to scripture...where does it say in scripture that its wrong to save & buy things that are nice? You seem to have a problem with the pastors house & property...can God not bless? Just because God hasn't blessed you in a certain way doesn't mean He cant bless another in a certain way. Show me in scripture where God cant bless a man with things. And you can misquote a man, but you better not misquote the Word of God to fit your own opinions.
Why does it matter to you what the pastor makes? If he gives a tithe & offering like he preaches EVERYONE else to do, why do you care? However, YOU suggest to people that one way to get the pastor to address the questions on this blog is to stop giving. How is that scriptural?
You cant back up this blog, the name calling, and the lies on scripture.
I do not understand how one could expect blind allegiance in the absence of total transparency. If we could just deal with this issue many of the other issues would go away.
ReplyDeletePaige Patterson is the daddy of Pastor's having all but complete control over a church body. This was in reaction to small SBC churches running over a pastor with the board of deacons. During this time SBC pastors were nothing more than hirelings.
We have come full circle today with the advent of mega churches and the salaries that go with it we need more oversight at the member in the pew level. Just say no to "yes men" deacons.
Anon 6:17 - I'm evil and wicked.
ReplyDeleteYou say many of the accusations are straw men...therefore some are not? Which ones?
what?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you want to know who I am? Why do you care? If you believe I'm saying bad things, or that I have no credibility, just ignore this blog and never come back.
Watchdog
ReplyDeleteI am blown away by how you know details of church matters and so forth. You fit the classic case of a fool. You say what is on your mind, yet hide behind your privacy.
I feel sick to think that you are fake. You shake hands and say hello and then go home and blog gossip. Cant you see that as fraud. If you were really a man of honor and truth you would say what you feel without your cover of identity.
Luther came against the Catholic church with his "blog" on the door step and HIS NAME WAS ATTACHED! You are a coward. Luther was a man of God who stood for truth and that is not what you are doing.
I am done with this blog because I see it as the end of the road for me. I have come to the conclusion you need to find a church where you respect your pastor and will contribute to the work of the Lord. You are on a dangerous road with satan at the wheel. Your hatred will leave you marked for life without repentance.
Have you led anyone to the Lord in the last year? I dought so. I have things to do with my short time on this beautiful planet I call Earth. I want to help the lost generation come to know Jesus and be set free like I was at 19. That is what keeps me going! I want to be used by God! I want to be effective for the Kingdom. I one day will stand before a Holy God and I dont want to be consumed with time stealers from satan.
Jesus does love you! Satan Hates you! Give God your life, time, energy and respect.
You started out good Im sure, but you have gotten side tracked my brother.
We by nature are in the flesh, and decieve ourselves. Our ways are not Gods ways.
I will not be returning to this blog but I PROMISE I WILL PRAY FOR YOU> I really feel sorry for you because life could be better!
If you ever wanted to change you can. Jesus is The Truth, Anne Byrnes
anon - "why does it matter where he lives?" For the same reason Mac chastised the pastors for "negotiating" their big NBA size salaries. Ask him why he preached that and why it matters. He can explain it better than I can.
ReplyDeleteAnd you assume he tithes. But tell me, if you gave me $300,000.00and I tithe $30,000 per year on my $300,000 salary you also give me, it will take me ten years of faithful tithing before I even give you 1 cent above what you have already given me. I don't see this as "equal sacrifice" in tithing. Remember, its not the amount, its the equality in giving is it not?
And you tell me, where was money earned as income ever given as a tithe in the bible? Who gave it, and to whom was it given?
You sound like you have been brainwashed by some rich preachers to blindly give a percentage of your income because during a famine, farmers were told to bring the tithe of grain into a food storehouse so that there would be food.
Did carpenter's give a tithe of their wages? Did Jesus tithe? Let me know which scriptures support your OPINIONS.
Mac said "I have enough smarts and enough ambition that I could make a good living doing other things..." I have never heard a pastor, or any employee in any company, say such a thing to someone unless they were frustrated and bitter and felt the need to defend themselves.
ReplyDeleteHEY MAC - I defy you to see if your smarts and ambition can get you to have someone GIVE you a piece of land worth $300,000 and to hire your wife and then hire your son! You, sir, have what you have because you are capitalizing on the love for Christ that others have. You are robbing God by taking those gifts and funds and diverting them to yourself and your family while the real ministries get only pennies on the dollars that are given to the church. SHAME ON YOU and those that rationalize your fleecing of the sheep!
And sir, even the mayor of Jacksonville, and the presidents of the Univ of North Florida and SFCC don't make as much as your salary. Those salaries are available online. Why is yours so closely guarded? Are you ashamed to let people know how well the Lord is blessing you? YOU ARE A FRAUD and God does not call me to give HIS money to YOU! Get over it.
Sheri said...
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:10 - VERY WELL STATED !! Thank you for putting into words the feelings of so many FBC members!
This is for the super star who asked where my opinions of tithing are found in scripture...here you go brother:
ReplyDeleteLeviticus 27:30-34
Numbers 18:25-32
Deut. 14:22-25
(These refer to tithing to God Himself)
1 Corinthians 16:1-2
(This refers to tithing to support the church)
2 Corinthians 9:7
(This refers to a man judging for himself what he should tithe because "God loves a cheerful giver")
Seriously, all you have to do is read Gods Word...and clearly the ones behind this blog dont.
So there, ive backed up my argument with scripture. Now its your turn. YOU back up the name calling and questioning & slandering with scripture.
Like I said before, spiritual depth & discernment is NOT tearing down and twisting someone's words to give a foundation to an argument. Its bringing what you have issues with to scripture. Which, once again, I DO NOT SEE on this blog.
Now, I have brought scripture to you. As I said before, you can twist a man's word, but you better not twist Gods.
Mr. / Mrs. Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteI do not attend FBC Jax., but I recently ran across your blog and it has caused me to have some questions.
1. You seem to feel strongly about the salary level of your Pastor. Does he set his own salary, or is it set by the finance committee, deacons, or trustees? Have you spoken with the chairmen of any of these groups to express your concerns?
2. The Bible clearly outlines the steps to be taken if you have concerns with the actions of a church member.
Mat 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
Mat 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
This passage applies to all of the brethren (pastors included). Have you personally shared your concerns with your Pastor? If you are solid in your opinions you should not mind talking with him.
3. The Bible states that teachers will be held to a higher standard.
Jam 3:1 MY brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
FBC JAX. has been a place with God's hand on it for many years. If your Pastor is truly in the wrong I do not think God needs your help in correcting the situation. Right or wrong your pastor (and all others) will be held to a higher standard by a sovereign God.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in heaven;
He does whatever He pleases
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'
What you are doing is not uplifting to God or reaching out to the lost.
Jam 1:26 If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless.
Jam 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
How much of your time / effort have you put into service at FBC JAX.?
God will bless His word and those who do His will. He does not need the assistance of a third party. Stop causing division.
Rom 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Anon 9:18,
ReplyDeleteThis is for you,
”This is for the super star who asked where my opinions of tithing are found in scripture...here you go brother: Leviticus 27:30-34 Numbers 18:25-32 Deut. 14:22-25 (These refer to tithing to God Himself)”
Brother, you need to take a serious look at Romans 3, 6, 7 and Galatians 3 and realize that we are free from the Law. If you want to climb up under it in your tithing, you may want to consider doing the rest of it for your salvation. That hasn’t worked out to well for anyone in the past. Insisting on tithing is not any different than the Jews insisting that the gentile believers be circumcised. We Christians uphold the law (Romans 3:31, 13:10) and fulfill the law by carrying each others burdens (Gal 6:2) NOT BY TITHING OR SACRIFICING ANIMALS.
”1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (This refers to tithing to support the church) 2 Corinthians 9:7 (This refers to a man judging for himself what he should tithe because "God loves a cheerful giver")”
In the context of todays mega paid preachers, you need to take a look at Nehemiah 5:3. People then (the exiles returning to Jerusalem) were suffering because the nobles and the elite were extracting onerous monetary demands and keeping it to themselves. Sound familiar? God even condemns them for this in Mal 3:8-11. This should sound familiar, the preachers love to use it to beat the sheep. You will find that Malachi was prophet during or shortly after Nehemiah and this scripture was targeted at the nobles, priests and so on that were taking advantage of the people. It was them that were robbing God in addition to the people that were giving them the money. None were blameless. You might give that some thought the next time you think about all that money going to the preacher while members of the Body (and you know they are there) are suffering because the preacher is exacting money and the pew is giving it to him rather than looking after the needs of those among them. See also Isaiah 1. He doesn’t want your sacrifices. He wants you. (Romans 12:1)
After all that was the purpose of the collection you are referring to in 1/2 Corinthians.
Seriously, all you have to do is read Gods Word...and clearly the ones behind this blog dont.
I do.
So there, ive backed up my argument with scripture. Now its your turn. YOU back up the name calling and questioning & slandering with scripture. Like I said before, spiritual depth & discernment is NOT tearing down and twisting someone's words to give a foundation to an argument. Its bringing what you have issues with to scripture. Which, once again, I DO NOT SEE on this blog.
Is it any wonder that people that are hurt and bleeding, get sick of drinking trampled grass and muddy water? There is one shepherd, (Ez 34) the rest of us are just part of the body. Romans 12:4-5. And it is clear that the eye isn’t any more important than the ear...What we see today is division within the body due to a failure to follow God’s WORD, especially as it relates to 1 Cor 12. We have those among us that would be first rather than last. Mark 9:35.
What we really have in the midst of the Body is the Nicolaitan spirit. And a lot of us are in good company when we tell you that we hate that. (Rev 2:6) Google Nicolaitan to find out what that is and see if you think it applies today. If it is something God hates, I would want to know what it is so I don’t do it.
Now, I have brought scripture to you. As I said before, you can twist a man's word, but you better not twist Gods.
What you have brought is your interpretation, this is mine. And I would add that we should consider the whole counsel (Acts 20:27 )of God and move beyond the elementary things (Hebrews 6) and start being the Body rather than sitting around on Sunday mornings starving for spiritual food and following the doctrines of man. Get into the WORD folks. That is the only place the water is clear and the grass is tall. Feast there and work out your own salvation (Phil 2:12) with fear and trembling. That chap in the pulpit may be leading you down the wrong path. You won’t know it unless you are truly abiding in the WORD and the WORD is abiding in you. Then you can hear His voice. (John 10:27)
Anon 9:35 PM,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the scripture. Without going into to much detail and getting long winded, your Mat 18 is good advice that doesn’t work when there is no access to the pastor (they call it security detail or admin pastor these days). Generally these guys are saying today that the pastor is not subject to Mat 18 anyway. Add to that the fact that a lot (not all) of the deacons we have today are just as ignorant of scripture as most in the pew are and you have a real mess trying to get anyone to correct or rebuke anyone. We just don’t know how anymore. After all, “judge not lest you be judged” has replaced “do justice” because no one calls for it any more. (Isaiah 59:4)
Now let’s look at this.
”God will bless His word and those who do His will. He does not need the assistance of a third party. Stop causing division.
Rom 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.”
February 4, 2008 9:35 PM
Paul tells us that there will be heresies among us for a reason. 1 Cor 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
So the bond of unity that you prescribe is void of any argument or discussion or dissension. That has been the hallmark of Baptist churches for quite some time. Business meetings and disciplinary meetings involving the entire congregation to settle disputes and confront heresies. But not anymore. We are to accept anything the leadership says or requires.
One religious system we have seen do this in the past and even now is Israel (the nation). They mostly follow their leadership and have a strong bond of unity. But they still deny Christ.
We have seen this type of totalitarian authority used and fail all down through history. Someone mentions Luther. Who was right in that case? The Church or Luther? If we relived that today, you would be telling Luther that he needed to shut up and let God handle it. The same way with most of the Apostles and prophets of the early church. They certainly weren’t known for their unity when it came to the religious establishment, were they? Didn’t that get most of them killed?
Going back a little earlier, if God was going to handle it, why did they still have to march around Jericho? What about the rest of the battles they fought? True enough, it is God’s battle to fight but he doesn’t do it without requiring us to suit up and go to the fight. Put on the whole armor….
The Nehemiahs of today are no less resisted than he was then. And I would argue just as badly needed.
Neh 13:22 And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and [that] they should come [and] keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, [concerning] this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.
13:23 In those days also saw I Jews [that] had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, [and] of Moab:
13:24 And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people.
13:25 And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, [saying], Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.
13:26 Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin.
13:27 Shall we then hearken unto you to do all this great evil, to transgress against our God in marrying strange wives?
13:28 And [one] of the sons of Joiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, [was] son in law to Sanballat the Horonite: therefore I chased him from me.
13:29 Remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood, and the covenant of the priesthood, and of the Levites.
13:30 Thus cleansed I them from all strangers, and appointed the wards of the priests and the Levites, every one in his business;
13:31 And for the wood offering, at times appointed, and for the firstfruits. Remember me, O my God, for good.
Who is going to stand in the gap and confront the Levites and the priests (pastors) of today the way Nehemiah did then? Doesn’t anyone else see the need to turn from our wicked ways? If your pastors won’t who will? Lets look back to the WORD while they persist in committing Romans 16:17and enlarging their bellies.
We can all get back to the WORD or we can practice our religion on Sunday morning. We are swimming in a pool of legalism much of it, tithing, programs, conferences.
If we can't do any better than we are doing right now, how about we just get one of the members to stand up and read the WORD every time we meet. It may just spark a revival. It was good enough for Jesus.
Luke 4:16-20
4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
4:18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
anon 9:18 - those verses have nothing to do with scriptural tithing. Either you know this and are intentionally trying to mislead people who don't study the Bible; OR...you are ignorant.
ReplyDeleteAt least you didn't try to use Malachi 3:10 so you still have some credibility my mind.
Check out this website for some good study on the verses you mention: Its called "How much do you REALLY know about tithing?"
http://tithing.christian-things.com/howmuch.html
Watchdog - now we all know Trey makes less than $50,000.00 per year and more than 33,333.00. (That would have been raising 3X his salary)
ReplyDeleteWhy did the pastor mention that? Does anyone care what Trey makes? And why would how much he makes in salary have ANYTHING to do with how much money people contributed TO HELP PASTORS attend the conference??????? Again, is all about man's efforts. Mac is smart and ambitious and Trey raised the money. I wonder if those that gave the money knew Trey would be taking credit for "raising the funds." Let's see Trey go get that kind of money without asking people to 'give it to the Lord." The LORD raised the money, NOT TREY!
Mac is delusional and has completely lost it. His demise is nearer than even I could have imagined.
I agree Anon. How absolutely disgusting, the guy just does not get it. Watching Mac Brunson in action is like watching a perpetual train wreck.
ReplyDeleteHe calls his son up to pray (and Trey has his little ear piece in - I guess he's plugged into the security detail)...and says some very nice words about his son...says he is "on staff"...and then says:
"I want you all to know, that Trey raised over $100,000 for this conference on his own. That is more than twice his salary."
Those of you reading this probably don't believe me, but he did say it. As you said Anon, what on earth does his SALARY have to do with a dollar amount raised? Thank you Dr. Jeremiah for pointing out the absolute ridiculousness of that statement...when Dr. Jeremiah came to the pulpit he told Mac if you want him to raise more money, give Trey a raise.
Not only that, but to give credit to Trey for raising that money is an insult to almighty God, and to the people who gave that money. Does Mac have no wisdom at all?
To Trey's credit, he seemed absolutely embarrassed to have his Dad say that.
And for the first time we have seen what Trey's title is: "Director of Special Projects" as that was put up on the image mags.
This is a red letter day. I was able to watch the service on the internet.
ReplyDeleteWe learned Trey's title and approximate salary. This seems like a move towards disclosure as a direct result of the blog.
I disagree with the stances taken here concerning tithing. We must realize everything we have is a direct result of God's grace. 100% of what me and my family have is from God. I am all too happy to give back a tenth. Some people say they can not afford to tithe. I can not afford not to.
This is a direct quote from Rick Warren as to how to deal with "Resisters" i.e. "Recalcitrants"
ReplyDelete"Be willing to let people leave the church. And I told you earlier the fact that people are gonna leave the church no matter what you do. But when you define the vision, you're choosing who leaves. You say, "But Rick, yes, they're the pillars of the church." Now, you know what pillars are. Pillars are people who hold things up ... And in your church, you may have to have some blessed subtractions before you have any real additions".
These people who would ask us to get right or leave do not seem to understand what is at stake. We have a heritage at FBC. All of my children have been reared under Pastor Lindsay and Pastor Vines.Our people are worth fighting for so as long as Pastor Brunson still preaches the truth we will be there. These editorials after the sermon can be tough.
I believe if we could sell some of the HD-TV equipment that is not being used, we could start on the class rooms for our Seniors. This is an excellent idea. I hope we will remain steadfast about not going into debt to float any upgrades. I watched during the '70's when Independent Baptist churches lost their influence because they issued bonds that could not be paid back to the bond holders. We do not need to travel this road.
Some of the other visions are not likely to get much traction. Our halls are not in ruins. We may need a little paint and carpeting. The satellite church vision is a little scary to me. Who would be in charge of proper oversight? What form would the service take? Would it be traditional or contemporary? Would it be a model of the recent "seeker type" service?
The school? Been there addressed that! I know I am living in the past but Pastor Lindsay looked into a school years ago. He taught us it is better for the church dispersed during the week to bring your Bible to a public school everyday as a testimony to Jesus Christ. This is a long post but I love our church and its people.1Cor.1:27
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
Watchdog,
Thank you for allowing the weak and base things to have a voice.