At last week's 2009 Southern Baptist Convention in Louisville, SBC messengers voted to grant Mac Brunson the high honor of delivering the "convention sermon" (like a "keynote address") for next year's 2010 convention which will be held in Orlando.
From Baptist Press:
"Mac Brunson, pastor of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., was elected to preach the 2010 convention sermon and Michael Catt, pastor of Sherwood Baptist Church in Albany, Ga., was elected as the alternate convention preacher."
Someone has said that a person elected to deliver the convention sermon may be a person who is being looked at to be nominated as the president of the SBC.
Looks like good times ahead for Mac Brunson.
Congratulations, Mac.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeletePlease check out this Ode to a mega church pastor that I found. So true. So true.
Typical.
ReplyDeleteJust like the response you got from JSO when asked to investigate the threat made against you this week.
Brunson preaching at the convention is an extremely tactical move. It says that the Big Boys stand by their man Mac. They are sending a message to you, Tom, and to all of us that support your cause. They are all giving their approval of Mac's behavior and bullying style. This is completely business as usual. They are trying to show you and US that they back their man.
Thick as thieves, man.
Is anybody shaking in their boots?
I'm not.
I'm seeing some more transparency, of the SBC type.
They will back their men as long as the money flows. So, keep giving so they can promote the reprobate pastors.
ReplyDeleteLike Johnny Hunt kept promoting the reprobate Steven Flockhart of West Palm Beach Baptist church.
These guys LOVE to ignore 1 Tim 3. They do not think it applies to them because THEY get to define what is sin. They just ignore the 'above reproach to the outside' in that passage on elders.
The SBC is sick. Stop funding it. Give your offerings to a place where you can know if you are being a good steward or not. Stop funding Paige Patterson's pastry chef with CP dollars.
Mah...just another nail in SBC's coffin.
ReplyDeleteThis is what businesses do. When a business or product is showing signs of failure the PR firms try to promote the product. Instill and infuse confidence, so the consumer will continue to "buy" the product/service. Therefore the business can "ride the wave" awhile longer. Most companies deny any problems with their product/service right before they fold. The principals usually "milk" the business for all they can until it shuts down. It looks like organized religion is following suit.
ReplyDeleteanouncement by
ReplyDeleteWade Burleson
concerning his blog:
"Grace and Truth to You".
Where he says:
"It is now time for me to step aside.
For the next year I will be taking a sabbatical from any political discussions on this blog."
meaning no more
"political SBC discussions."
wonder who got to him???
Someone better be looking at the declining membership.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/us/25baptists.html
April 25, 2008
Ranks of Southern Baptists Are Still Growing Thinner
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
NASHVILLE. (AP) — The number of people baptized in Southern Baptist churches fell last year for the third straight year to the lowest level since 1987. Total membership dropped by nearly 40,000.
Baptisms in 2007 dropped more than 5 percent to 345,941, compared with 364,826 in 2006, according to an annual report released Wednesday by LifeWay Christian Resources, the publishing arm of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Total membership was 16,266,920 last year, down from the 16,306,246 the year earlier.
Southern Baptists make up the nation’s largest Protestant denomination. The drop in numbers reflects trends in other declining mainline Protestant churches, which are losing members as nondenominational and unaffiliated churches are growing.
For a denomination that places winning converts at the heart of its mission, the continued slide among Southern Baptists is troubling and disappointing, said the Rev. Frank Page, the convention’s president.
Part of the blame, Mr. Page said, can be placed on a perception that Baptists are “mean-spirited, hurtful and angry people” and that the denomination has been known too much in recent years for “what we’re against” than “what we’re for.”
What Mr. Page is saying is that outsiders believe that Baptists are "mean-spirited, hurtful and angry people". As a former Baptist I can tell you that Baptist are definitely mean-spirited, hurtful and angry just like the rest of all kinds and types of people!!!!
ReplyDeleteAlthough NOT an FBCJ Baptist anymore, I still would say that, "Baptists are "mean-spirited, hurtful and angry people".
ReplyDelete"As a former Baptist I can tell you that Baptist are definitely mean-spirited, hurtful and angry just like the rest of all kinds and types of people!!!!"
I haven't decided if I'm yet to sail under that flag of Baptist yet... I don't consider it much of a tag for me anymore. I would so much rather my ship sail under the flag of Loving The Lord, Holy Spirit and The Word.
Undecided here.
If there is mean spirited, hurtful and angry leadership in any organization it will eventually destroy itself. If you have been at the receiving end of this type of behavior, you will definitely leave it. If enough people see the trend toward this behavior, they will eventually stop paying for it.
ReplyDeleteYea, I read Burleson's comments, since he allows for no more anonymous postings I have been leary.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 9:33,
ReplyDeleteYou're no more "anonymous" by posting as "Anonymous" than you are if you choose and register a unique, anonymous screen name and post under such. Unless Wade (or anyone else with a blog) has reason to get a court order to subpoena Google for your IP address and then to get another subpoena to get your ISP to identify you, your anonymity is safe. (I seriously doubt Wade has reason to do so, nor do I think, unlike Mac, he has willing friends in high enough places.) Disallowing anonymous comments is only meant to lessen the confusion caused by twenty people all posting simultaneously as "Anonymous."
... and on the NBBCOF blog, I might add, to prevent trolls from assuming other people's identities. That was a problem in the early days. Coincidentally, the two people who were identified as pulling this stunt have since died. Not saying there's any connection, just that it's a strange coincidence.
ReplyDelete"Brunson preaching at the convention... says that the Big Boys stand by their man Mac.... They are all giving their approval of Mac's behavior and bullying style.... Thick as thieves."
ReplyDeleteYup.... in more ways than one.
The SBC pastors & leadership are all scared that it's going to happen to them, (a loyal or disloyal subject who dares to disagree and blog about it).
ReplyDeleteThat's why they all have to stick together now.
That's why they need to show a force of numbers now, to US and to You, Tom.
They are trying hard to make it look like Mad Mac has not taken a hit on this with them. (Which is the worse thing they could do.)
They are trying hard to market his failure as something other than that.
They are trying to make it look like they are a united front, against all of us that disagree with them, or potentially will.
They want all of blogsphere to see that they will prevail.
I disagree.
It ignites me even more.
May the truth be told, and done so boldly.
Keep up the great work, Tom.
Let this be an encouragement to you, that they feel the need to position their man who's messed up the worst so far, to be their fair leader.
They are trying to be proactive because your case is strong and so are your supporters.
Your blog and your supporters are a national matter now and they know they have to do something about it.
It shows fear on their part that they have to posture and position like this.
I got an email yesterday on some Christian one liners and thought some of them were pretty good.
ReplyDeleteDon't let your worries get the best of you; Remember, Moses started out as a basket case
==============
Some people are kind, polite, and sweet-spirited, until you try to sit in their pews.
==============
It is easier to preach ten sermons, than it is to live one.
==============
Some minds are like concrete - thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
===============
Coincidence is when God chooses to remain anonymous.
===============
God doesn't call the qualified,
He qualifies the called
===============
and finally:
He who angers you, controls you!
FBC Insider - I agree with you. Mac's selection to be the convention speaker can be taken as a challenge to all of us. Also, it can be seen as an encouragement to Tom, since his blog is even more needed as Mac seems to be positioned to have even more power and less accountability than ever before. His abuses now will may not just be focused on FBCJ, but on all of the agencies in the SBC. And most importantly, if you expect him to appoint you to any boards, you better be supporting him! So this makes every wannabe in the SBC stick that already brown nose even further up Mac's behind. And makes me even more determined to blog, blog, blog about Mac's ongoing abuses! Sic em, Dog!
ReplyDeleteRe: SBC numbers are falling.
ReplyDeleteThe leadership of all organizations, when numbers are falling, is to be very UPBEAT. This policy attempts to reduce any criticism and have all join hands to RECOVER. Unfortunately, the ECONOMIC woes of the American people does not handle this type of policy well. As things worsen everyone gets a real picture of whats going on, even the Senators and Congressmen/wowen that put out these strategies. Whenever God's people start doing it, it just backfires. The policy of politicalization within the Christian community is unbelievable. More power to the leaders rather than to the people who tithe and put their talents into a strugging and failing enterprise. Talk is cheap. When will they wake up and call it like it is? Go back to witnessing and preaching the WORD and leave the results up to the Lord. This is the correct and only answer!!!
Bob Tebow's Father's Day sermon is posted on Channel 12 website:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=140626&catid=3
Nice article.
I don't think that clip is his entire sermon, but his entire sermon is available on the FBC Jax website - not on the 316 archives, but audio only on a special hyperlink further down on the site.
ReplyDeleteBut on the First Coast News clip you can hear Bob Tebow's ringing endorsement for Mac Brunson:
"Well, I am honored, I get to sit under the preaching of the best pastor in America, the best preacher in America. That's the way I feel about Pastor Brunson, and uh, I'm honored that he would ask me on Father's Day to speak."
It's ironic that many think that the SBC selected Mac JUST to send a message to them.
ReplyDeleteParanoia runs deep here.
I have 2 thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. It is unfortunate that some people think that someone has "gotten to" Wade Burleson, and that is why he has said that he will not blog about SBC politics anymore. I do not know Wade personally, but from I do know about him he would be the last person in the world to allow himself to be pressured into doing something. I believe that Wade follows his heart and what he believes God wants him to do, just as other conscientious believers do.
2. I did not make most of the Pastor's Conference this year, but I attended most of the convention. The most influential talks this year, in my opinion, were given by David Platt, pastor of the Church at Brook Hills in Birmingham, and Mark Dever. Platt spoke at the Pastor's Conference. Dever held IX Marks meetings in a conference room adjacent to the main convention all, each night after the convention ended.
Neither of these guys talked about SBC politics, SBC trajectory, SBC future, SBC fights etc.
Did anyone out there on this blog attend this convention? I would be interested in hearing about things you may have found encouraging.
Louis
A lot of people love Mac, not just Bob Tebow. And imagine what it would have cost Bob Tebow Evangelistic Association to rent a premium booth at the PC last year to promote BTEA. And imagine how much it would have cost for BTEA to get a mention from the platform?
ReplyDeleteNow, imagine what giving Bob the pulpit on Sunday morning father's day is worth if you had to pay for it? Now, imagine how much 10% of Tim Tebow's salary will be when he signs that NFL contract next year? Looks like having Bob speak was a good investment. Just sayin.
Knowing Mac and Maurilio, I just can't help but wonder why this is the first time EVER that Bob Tebow has been given the pulpit on a Sunday morning. Kind of like that commercial for Collins builders being the first and only time EVER that a commercial was played during the preaching.
If you know Mac, you KNOW it was quid pro quo. Always has been, always will be. I can't blame Bob for saying nice words about his pastor and accepting the opportunity. And he used the opportunity to bless all of us with a helpful message. If Bob has any alterior motives, I believe them to be only to further the gospel of Christ. A class act all the way. Too bad Mac just happened to be brought in to be the pastor of these guys after Lindsey and Vines were their pastors all of Tim's life.
Here is the scenario for a pastor who feels the roof may collapse on him. These are some of the ways they try to manipulate the congregation into seeing how wonderful things are, when they really are not.
ReplyDelete1. Uplift the Officers Trustees, and Deacons of the Church to the membership;
2. Make them feel special and honored in front of the membership by bring out positive issues they have done or said - everybody like there name called out - right....
3. Preach unrelentingly on Paul and others in the Bible who were persecuted and use personal examples;
4. Use highly visible and well known men and women to promote the Pastor and Church endeavors making all seem so wonderful;
5. Have a LOT of children specials and have the church focus more on precious times with the little one;
6. Divert attention away from the main issues confronting the Pastor;
7. Ignore question concerning issues and when/if answering use e Biblical terminology to make them seem a higher calling;
8. Poor mouth the "Church" situation concerning financial needs;
9. Hide as much as possible;
10 Allow females more say so concerning issues within the church;
11. Uplift the Senior adults and focus more on their needs
12. Prayer will be given as more "personal" and will be given more attention during prayer times concerning members and their issues
seeming as if "they really care"..
More to come......
"Did anyone out there on this blog attend this convention? I would be interested in hearing about things you may have found encouraging."
ReplyDeleteI attended. I found very little encouraging. Maybe it is just me. Too much adoration and promoting of mere men and not enough Jesus Christ.
We do not need more resurgances. We need repentance. Repentance from numbers. From bragging on how many baptisms, etc.
We think the church is only about reaching the lost but it is to Glorify God first and foremost. Not us and our numbers. Not our great 'orators' or fancy leaders or the hot new up and coming young pastors.
We think we are alive but we are dead. I do not think I will ever go to another one. They are too man-centerd for me.
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > The New Covenant: Christian Living at It's Finest.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of this particular post is to simply show that under the New Covenant there is a particular characteristic that defines God's people. We are not defined by our "obedience to any law" such as the law of Sabbath keeping, or the law of sacrifice, or the law of Temple worship, or the law of abstinence, or any other Old Covenant law, church law, or man-made law. Rather, we are defined as a people by our desire to solely and completely fulfill one law - the law from Jesus Christ Himself, called "the royal law of love."
Anon:
ReplyDeleteWow. I thought that this year's convention had less of that than I have ever heard.
In fact, Platt was the polar opposite - in my opinion.
Do you know if that message is avaiable on the internet, at either an SBC website, Youtube etc.?
Did you make the IX Marks meeting or the Baptist 21 luncheon at the inner city church. That luncheon was really neat. Lots of young guys and lots of energy.
Take care.
Louis
Here's a summary of Platt's message, and why I thought it was so good.
ReplyDeleteDAVID PLATT
David Platt, pastor of The Church at Brook Hills in Birmingham, Ala., said Christians are the expression of God's love and must pray for a radical concern for the needs of the world around them, just as those in the early church expressed compassion for the poor, lost and needy people in the New Testament era.
Platt said he had come to a crisis of belief regarding the Bible -- not whether the Bible is true accurate or inerrant, "but do I really believe that this book radically changes the way I live?"
"If this book is true," Platt said, gesturing toward his Bible, "then the implications are nothing short of staggering."
He cited statistics indicating that the world consists of more than 4.5 billion lost people, and that 16,000 children die each day because they don't have food.
"If the Bible says that all throughout the history of God's people, He has chosen to measure the integrity of our faith by our concern for the poor, then there are radical implications here," Platt said. "We do not have time to play games with our lives, and we don't have time to play games in the church."
Preaching from Acts 3:1-10, Platt continued: "We need God to give us His concern for the needs around us. This is not something we can manufacture. It's something Christ alone can produce in us."
Platt said Christians need a radical confidence in the name of Jesus, saying 2,000 years ago the name of Jesus "caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, demons to flee and the dead to rise again. And 2,000 years later, the name is still good.
"Brothers and sisters, we cannot control the culture around us and all that's going on, but we can control our confidence in the name of Jesus Christ in the middle of this culture," Platt said.
Platt also said that Christians need a radical commitment to telling the nations about Christ's greatness. "God, raise up a church that is no longer content to wait for a tingly feeling to go down our spine to cause us to rise up and do what we have already been commanded to do," he said.
"What happens when we begin to trust boldly in the name of Christ, and we commit our lives to telling the nations that He is great?" Platt asked. "When that happens, the lost find a Savior, and the poor find a helper and the church finds a God who satisfies more deeply than any and everything else this world has to offer us. God, may it be so."
Louis
If you are quoting Platt, then it doesn't sound like he said much. Same generic fluff that most everyone runs out there.
ReplyDeleteHey if you believe what Platt says, church people are some of the wordliest-gameplayers out there. They all do Facebook and Twitter their lives away. That is horrible to see and they need to grow up.
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteEFF > DeepLinks > Help Protesters in Iran: Run a Tor Bridge or a Tor Relay.
As turmoil over the disputed election in Iran continues, many techs are trying to find ways to help Iranian citizens safely communicate and receive information despite the barriers being established by Iranian authorities. One tactic that even moderately tech-savvy Internet users can employ is to set up a Tor relay or a Tor bridge.
Please note, the above will also help you and others to circumvent subpoenas and Det. Hinson and others who wish to out Anonymous posters. The police seem confident that they can identify even Tor users. This remains to be seen. They will probably subpoena the Tor server owners. But remember this system changes paths every minute. If one immerses completely from start to finish in Tor, my belief is it would be extremely difficult to pin you down. Please note the limitations.
The more diverse people who use Tor, the more difficult it is for authorities to tag you. Also you can help by setting up your own Tor Bridge or a Relay. It is not that difficult. Help users around the world who wish to remain Anonymous.
Anon:
ReplyDeleteTo each his own. I actually got quite a lot out of Platt's presentation.
I am sorry you were disappointed at the Convention.
Maybe you will have a better time next year.
Louis
"To each his own. I actually got quite a lot out of Platt's presentation. "
ReplyDeleteFive degrees, 28 years old and now pastoring a mega church. I am sure you are impressed. I am not. Ivory tower to mega church.
"I am sorry you were disappointed at the Convention."
I am always disappointed when Christians gather to promote mere men.
"Maybe you will have a better time next year."
There won't be a next time. The institution is dead. They only proved it when they asked Mac to preach next year.
Anon:June 27, 2009 5:03 PM questioned
ReplyDeleteWade Burleson
wonder who got to him???
Answer:
The Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blogger 5/29 9:l5 PM.
ReplyDeleteDITTO!
Anon:
ReplyDeleteYour disappointment and anger are clearly stated.
Still, I would encourage you not to give up. You might find something worthwhile if you keep trying. And maybe you will be able to influence change by participating. I like blogging, but actually being with people is the best way to have an influence.
Louis
A lot can be said about Joel O'steen, but take a look at this. It came from an interview with him on Forbes.com today.
ReplyDelete...But questions over tax-exemption status and squabbling over high-profile pastors are growing concerns. In recent years, none more than Joel Osteen, 46, the best-selling author and pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston, the largest megachurch in the country, has been questioned more about his riches.
"God has blessed me with more money than I could imagine from my books," says Osteen, who gave up his $200,000 salary about five years ago, when royalties started flowing from his Your Best Life Now...
I can admire that. That's a step in the right direction. It sure helps his case in trying to be more transparent.
The church could do a lot of good with that pastor's salary. for starters, no more young people not able to be involved in church activities.
I'd like to see Mac and others take a cue from good ole Joel on this one.
The story on Forbes.com was on the top ten Mega Churches today. Very interesting reading.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.forbes.com/2009/06/26/americas-biggest-megachurches-business-megachurches.html
Thy Peace said...
ReplyDeleteI finally found the answer why Pastor Wade decided to not to engage politics for the next year.
The answer lies in his recent sermon:
#21. Perfect Love Casts Out Fear (I John 4:17-19), of the series I John: The Christian and Complete Joy. If you watch the video, it's titled "Perfect Love Casts Out Fear", June 7, 2009 - Part 21 of series (1 Jn. 4:17-19).
Very profound sermon. I understand it and at the same time I do not understand it. I probably will not tire of listening to it many times, for I would slowly absorb the message.
Mon Jun 29, 11:57:00 PM 2009.
-----------------------------------
Wade Burleson said...
Thy Peace,
I must hand it to you. Of all the people who have conjectured on why I am not blogging about SBC politics - you are spot on.
Tue Jun 30, 10:06:00 AM 2009.
-----------------------------------
More than once I have heard the Senior Pastor from the pulpit (with a smile) tell his audience that he loves to preach and does it for free - what the members of FBC pay for him to do is for him to attend meetings.
ReplyDelete($310,000.00) . . . Joel Osteen has the respect of many because he is not a greedy man - he's taken quite a lot of "jabs" from the pulpit at FBC.
Good for Dr. Osteen!
ReplyDeleteLet's also not forget our own, Rick Warren, whom I think has done some really wise things financially.
Louis
Your disappointment and anger are clearly stated.
ReplyDeleteStill, I would encourage you not to give up. You might find something worthwhile if you keep trying. And maybe you will be able to influence change by participating. I like blogging, but actually being with people is the best way to have an influence.
Louis
June 30, 2009 8:59 AM
I am not one bit angry. Weeping, yes.
Influence? Yes, it is what some live for, To influence others for some program, campaign, preeminance or position.
But Paul's influence came from the Holy Spirit...and in chains. Others by being stoned or burned at the stake because of His Name.
Sorry if I am not impressed with the institution anymore. I believe it is sending more folks to hell by elevating them and diverting them from the truth that if they follow Christ...they WILL be made lowly. And their only influence will be their sacrifice.
That way, God gets the glory. Not man.
Note how everyone is talking about this and that sermon and this and that preacher. It is all about man.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteGood for Dr. Osteen!
"Let's also not forget our own, Rick Warren, whom I think has done some really wise things financially."
Louis
============================
Louis,
You must have the wrong Osteen, he's not a doctor, not even a nurse!
I am no respecter of the so call ministers who use the "honorary" Dr that "Pastors" use without earning the title academically.
"What Mr. Page is saying is that outsiders believe that Baptists are "mean-spirited, hurtful and angry people".
As a member of FBC, I classify your (Louis) statements to be just like the above described by another blogger. By the way, I'm not a regular "blogger" like you seem to be - I just check in from time to time.
Anonymous said to Louis...
ReplyDelete..."What Mr. Page is saying is that outsiders believe that Baptists are "mean-spirited, hurtful and angry people".
As a member of FBC, I classify your (Louis) statements to be just like the above described by another blogger. By the way, I'm not a regular "blogger" like you seem to be - I just check in from time to time...
June 30, 2009 2:15 PM
Wow, that was a brazen statement for someone who admittedly does NOT follow this blog regularly. Therefore you wouldn't know that Louis is NOT mean spirited, hurtful or angry in his posts.
If by your reference to being a member of FBC meant FBCJ, you above all people should be able to detect mean spirited, hurtful and angry. You see your bully in the pulpit on a regular basis. I would dare to call Louis a little nerdy, and very pleasant, not at all the bully filled with anger that you are used to.
Check us out more often, then come and comment often. All are welcome here!
Note to Louis: My daughter adores the intellectual types (which is where I would categorize you). Nerdy here was meant as a term of endearment to you. She has a tee shirt that says, "Talk Nerdy To Me" because she loves you guys the best!
Please don't take offense at my reference. I enjoy reading you.
To "Weeping" Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI am with you brother/sister. Our experiences have brought us to the place we are at. I too am very disenchanted by so many things I see happening in the SBC. I don't think I could stomach it in person. I'll be praying for you. I sure hope you will pray for me too.
Sounds like the institution as well as the man has let you down the same as it has let me down. All the more reason to be glad to follow the Savior and NOT a man or an organization.
God Bless You My Friend.
Yea your being pretty rough on Louis. There are other people that post here that are brazen Mac defenders that are worthy of the business-end of your statements but lay off Louis. He's just posting is all.
ReplyDeleteInteresting article, maybe Thy Link will put a link to it.
ReplyDeleteMore interesting stuff from that article that tells us some more about how lame Team Brunson has been, and is:
"...nine out of 10 megachurches more than doubled in size between 2002 and 2007. (Not Mac. He inherited a plateaued, dying mega.)
Among the fears of Ed Young Jr., pastor of Fellowship Church in the Dallas area, No. 7 on the list of largest megachurches, and gaining on his father at Second Baptist, is the financial accounting of growth that comes with mergers and added campuses. And he wonders if megachurches are "just taking people from other churches because we have a cooler church." (Amen Ed, Jr.! Financial accounting and sheep stealing...big problems at FBCJ)
"Only 6% of megachurch attendees who participated in one of Thumma's surveys said they were at their first church. They appear to be being pulled from other congregations (MAC AND MAURILIO KNOW THIS, which is why the advertising budget went up while ministry budget went down! Sheep stealing, branding) or brought back into practicing their faith after falling off the wagon. Two-thirds of megachurch attendees have been going for five years or less, he found." (Don't know they are being fleeced. No deep roots. Better prey for Mac and Maurilio.)
Former FBC Insider and Anon (the nicer one):
ReplyDeleteThanks for the encouragement. I enjoy this blog and reading the thoughts on it, yours included.
It's really too bad that we can't meet from time to time because I think that would help us communicate better.
There are some direct disagreements that are clear and roll in here from time to time.
Other times, however, disagreements pop up when there really doesn't seem to be a disagreement.
So, I appreciate the encouragement and the tone of your posts, and it does not bother me that "nerdy" is a term applied to me! Though I don't own a slide rule or a pocket protector or any of the traditional trappings.
The other Anon is on to something here. He and I are probably closer on some things than he realizes. I just thought that Platt's sermon was very edifying because it did lift up the Lord so clearly. And I thought that this year's convention - by comparison - was better than previous years.
It was by no means the Kingdom of Heaven come to earth, or anything close.
Take care.
Louis
Forbes > America's Biggest Megachurches.
ReplyDeleteI'm still waiting for paparazzi or any other Brunson disciple to explain why it is ok for Brunson to write one thing in a book and do just the opposite.
ReplyDeletetapping toe on floor waiting
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteThe Wartburg Watch > Yep, There Are Still More Reasons Why We Are Leaving The SBC (Part 6).
A few days ago, Wade Burleson, author of Hardball Religion, Feeling the Fury of Fundamentalism, announced that he will abstain from the discussion of politics for the next year. His wonderful blog will now be a site to discuss theology.
...
So, here is a list of concerns outlined in Burleson’s book. I leave it to you to decide if they are spiritual issues or “mere” politics. All page numbers refer to pages in Burleson’s book, Hardball Religion.
"Wow, that was a brazen statement for someone who admittedly does NOT follow this blog regularly. Therefore you wouldn't know that Louis is NOT mean spirited, hurtful or angry in his posts."
ReplyDelete=================================
Wow, my apologies to Louis - it was most helpful to be repremanded by those who know you - this blog indeed has been a blessing for me to read as it's been helpful for members like myself to see a journal of concerns we all seem to have in common - henceforth I do plan to check this blog more often.
May be wrong, but believe the "watchdog" has the majority of members of FBCJAX on his defense team - what happen to him, could happen to any member and therefore even though most of us don't know him we will continue to defend him through his blog, as what happened was just downright wrong. Again, my apologies to you Louis - great to know you really are one of the "nice" guys! :>)
To be fair and balanced - go back and read some of Louis' views as we were discussing Brunson, the legalities involved in the JSO investigation, etc. I have always viewed Louis as more of a person who sides with the SBC establishment, more of a pro-Brunson, pro-Gaines, blogger.
ReplyDeleteAnd Anon, if you're still at FBC Jax I suppose you have a reason to think that the majority of people share the concerns expressed here...but I find that incredibly hard to believe.
"The other Anon is on to something here. He and I are probably closer on some things than he realizes. I just thought that Platt's sermon was very edifying because it did lift up the Lord so clearly. And I thought that this year's convention - by comparison - was better than previous years."
ReplyDeleteFunny, as I was wandering around the exhibits I ran into many folks who asked me if I had heard Platt speak. Not one of them mentioned the 'content' but how impressed they were with 'him'.
Now, I am seeing the same thing around the blogosphere.
May we raise up men and women whose message is so Christ centered, no one remembers their name but the message will pierce their hearts.
Platt is just ONE example of what has become of the SBC over the years. There are Mohler followers, Russell Moore followers, Patterson, Akin, Ascol, etc, etc.
One of the things that amused me was seeing all the young guys who were emulating CJ Mahaney in style and bald head. And there were many of them, mostly the 20 somethings.
Russell Moore had a group of young guys following him around with same crew cut and suit and he spent most of his time cutting up with and texting with. This, a man being groomed to take over SBTS.
Did I mention the Driscoll clones. Another generation of emulating vulgarity and disrespecting the Holiness of our Lord.
I am starting to see less and less need for the SBC. Global communications and finances have radically changed how we can do missions. Talking with many missionaries over the years, I have to wonder how many 'converts' are rice Christians, anyway.
I read bios of Hudson Taylor and others who had one true convert after 10 years!
I prefer the Paul Washer method of missions of Heart Cry. I know where the money is going and I know for a fact that his start was a la George Mueller in financing. I respect that so very much. I also respect the fact that donations there are not going to fund high salaries of bureaucrats whose behaviors are shameless self promotion and luxury living.
I also respect the fact they disciple indigenous folks to grow churches. So it will be strong when the missionary leaves to plant another one.
I also do not see the point of the ELRC. So we can brag about 16 million baptists voting? There are NOT 16 million baptists. And now we have Obama and a democrat congress, So what is the point of the ELRC?
If we care so very much about missions, we could fund several just by eliminating the ELRC, Hemphill's position and Bobby Welch's position. Each one of these were created to find a place for a cronie at a nice 6 figure salary. And that is just for starters.
We are man centered and obsolete. We just do not know it. And we will be until the money really dries up.
We do not need any resurgance. We need repentance. I recommend folks stop giving to the SBC.
Louis can remain impressed. I will move on to more lowliness where Christ is exhalted. Not man.
Anon 6:33PM. Never going to happen. It's sort of like politics and elections. The candidate position before an election is seldom the candidate position after an election. Promises made are seldom kept.
ReplyDeleteThe word I hear through the grapevine is that Mac will be the next SBC President. That should sit well on this blog.
ReplyDeleteRick Warren to be keynote speaker at Islamic Society of North America Conference.
ReplyDeletehttp://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/12321
The word I hear through the grapevine is that Mac will be the next SBC President.
ReplyDeleteJuly 1, 2009 8:30 AM
Al Franken is a senator. Obama is the president. That only says a lot about those that chose them.
Anon 6:33pm,
ReplyDeleteBrunson didn't do anything that went against his advice in his book.
Let 'em elect Mac to the SBC presidency. What do I care? Let him rant and rave to the whole world. Shows how foolish the SBC really is. Does leadership really think Mac as president is going to help their cause? Anyway, this is all gossip and speculation. Hey if they were TRULY interested in saving the SBC, Wade Burleson would be their man. Forget Mac. He can do nothing but DESTROY.
ReplyDeleteCan I get an AMEN?
Brunson didn't do anything that went against his advice in his book.
ReplyDeleteJuly 1, 2009 10:26 AM
It is good to be king. Then they can define sin for themselves. Mac's advice was for OTHERS. Not himself.
AMEN!
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:53am,
ReplyDeleteYou still haven't made a point.
What has Brunson done wrong that was sinful and goes against his guidance in his book?
Tapping foot on floor waiting....
TRP Anon:
ReplyDeleteBelow are the links from last year that dealt with Mac's book.
There is no need for the Anon to give a reply to your question, as the answer has already been provided on this blog.
May 31, 2008: Do As I Say, Not as I Do
and
June 7, 2008: Don't Accept Gifts, Unless They are Too Good to Pass Up
FBC Jax Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteThank you Anon 10:53am. Usain Bolt couldn't even run that fast to someone's defense.
I will be glad to give a look over your articles and point out to you your mistakes in reasoning.
Stay tuned.
More beans …
ReplyDeleteBased on numbers in the Forbes Magazine Article about the Top 10 megachurches and FBCJax numbers I have picked up on this blog.
Based on WEEKLY attendance numbers and a YEARLY budget, the top of the list is Second Baptist Church in Dallas, TX with a yearly budget of $63,000,000 and a weekly attendance of 24,000. It therefore costs $50.48 per attending member to operate the church.
Bottom of the Forbes Top 10 List of megachurches is West Angeles Church of God in Christ in Los Angeles. With a yearly budget of 15,000,000 and a weekly attendance of 20,000, it costs $14.42 per attending member to operate the church.
Doing the same thing with FBCJax numbers, using a $12M budget and a weekly attendance of 5,500, it costs $41.96 per attending member to operate the church.
In the article, it also states that “…Thumma, a professor at Hartford Seminary, has since his book reported that the average megachurch income was $6.5 million in 2007, up from $4.7 million in 1999. About 50% of it was spent on salaries, the rest divided evenly between missions and buildings.
Using those numbers …
50% of FBCJax budget goes towards salaries ($6,000,000); 25% ($3,000,000) goes to “missions.” 25% (3,000,000) goes towards buildings.
Is it conceivable that $6,000,000 is being paid out in salaries at FBCJax?
Just thinkin.
Readers - notice this person who says they will go read the articles and then will come back and
ReplyDelete"point out to you your mistakes in reasoning."
Do you find anything humorous in that remark? I do. And it says a lot about this person.
TRP is nothing but an aggrevator and a troll. We all need to ignore it. It is probably one of Brunson's kids or their friends.
ReplyDeleteRichard - 2nd Baptist is in Houston. Dallas has the equally vile 1st Baptist
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, I know who this person is....and if I told you all, you would recognize him.
ReplyDeleteAnon:
ReplyDeleteI am starting to chuckle and cry at the same time as I continue to read your new posts.
I understand how you feel about the SBC and the annual meeting, in that you are clear.
But you go on and on (and on and on and on) about how we should not man centered, but God centered, but then when you talk about the convention you give us all of these reports about the men you saw, what they were doing, how they wear their hair (or shave their heads) how they follow Russ Moore around etc.
I missed all of those details, I guess.
I just sounds to me like you are very man centered - either focused on men because you don't like what they are doing, or you are really angry because of all the attention they are getting.
And, again, I don't understand your criticism of Platt. You say essentially that he had nothing to say. You had heard all of that before. And you were disgusted by all the talk about him by others who were very encouraged by his message, but said nothing about the content of what Platt said.
This still makes no sense.
What was impressive about Platt? What did these people who spoke to you find impressive? His looks, his speech, some accomplishment? (Don't tell me you are going to talk about how he wears his hair, too. Btw, are you bald?)
If anyone on this blog has watched any of Platt's speech, and think's he is impressive physically or is a great orator, or has some great claim to fame by an accomplishment, I would be very interested in hearing that.
I don't know about the guys you are hanging with at the convention, but I did not find anyting impressive about Platt EXCEPT what he said. And it was very Christ centered.
Your anger at all things SBC is very clear.
Now you have advocated not giving any money to the SBC.
That's fine. Lots of people in the US do not.
But I have to ask, are you paying to go the SBC annual meeting to be so disappointed and get so worked up? I would think that if you dislike the SBC so much (which, again, is not an uncommon feeling among people), why in the world would you subject yourself to it?
According to what you have written - You don't enjoy the meetings. You don't believe it should not be funded. Why in heaven's name are you there? Why would you heap such psycholoigcal abuse on yourself?
As I said, my recommendation is to hang in there and find something positive.
But if you are to the point that you are not finding anything worthwile at the annual meeting and you are wanting churches not to give to the SBC, wouldn't it be psychologically wholesome to be involved with a group that you are enthusiastic about?
You mentioned George Meuller (sp?) and someone else whom you have admired in history. I admire Meuller, too. But he is dead.
Are there any groups or missions organizations that are around today that you feel are doing ministry the right way that ought to be funded? I would really be interested.
Of course, maybe I should not read you literally. Maybe you do find lots of good things at the SBC and that your really do not advocate that no one should give money to the SBC. You probably give ot your church, and thus, to the SBC (otherwise, you wouldn't be a messenger).
It could be that you are using hyperbole in light of your disappointment that the SBC is not what you want it to be.
That's understandable. At least it would explain things.
By the way, I plan on coming to the SBC in Orlando next year. I do not shave my head and follow Russ Moore around. I wear khakis and a button down shirt most of the time - white or light blue. I have brown hair, cut short. I am not bald, and do not shave my head.
I am not impressive physically, though I like to think that I am not repulsive either.
If that description sounds like someone you could hang with at the SBC, let me know about 11 months from now and we could make a plan to meet at the SBC meeting next year.
Take care.
Louis
Louis,
ReplyDeleteI am not the anon to whom you directed your comment. I agree with your anon on the convention conference being man-centered and very distasteful but I also agree with you about why subject yourself to that. I know one couldn't pay me to go to one of the conventions for any amount of money in the world - no hyperbole there, either.
I wanted to post though, because you asked a great question about who's doing missions the RIGHT WAY. I'll tell you who is - Gospel for Asia. Hands down, the best. They are the trustworthiest (and I typically don't trust anyone who is not family) and the most transparent. That is where my money (tithe) goes.
TRP
ReplyDeleteI already wrote it you once on the other thread. The Pastors Guidebook instructs pastors NOT to accept expensive gifts (Brunson received land valued over $300,000), it also tells them NOT to live in executive homes (if Deerwood isn't considered executive then what is it?), it also teels tem NOT to drive luxury cars ( Lexus, Jaguars nuff said?)
The book also instructs pastors to meet PERSONALLY with unhappy church members . (Brunson refused to meet with Tom Rich).
What do you call it when someone tells people to act one and they do the opposite themself?
FBC Jax Watchdog said...
ReplyDeleteTo be fair and balanced - go back and read some of Louis' views as we were discussing Brunson, the legalities involved in the JSO investigation, etc. I have always viewed Louis as more of a person who sides with the SBC establishment, more of a pro-Brunson, pro-Gaines, blogger.
================================
Watchdog, thanks for your suggestion as I did go back and carefully disected what was written. May I also say I appreciate your always kind responses - your "fan club" is daily growing.
Thanks, "Other Anon"! I will check out Gospel for Asia.
ReplyDeleteIn college I attended a church that was not SBC. There were lots of independent missions groups. Many were excellent. Our church now supports some non-SBC work. So, there is lots of good going on.
Louis
Well watchdog, is he on staff?
ReplyDeleteHey FBC Watchdog:
ReplyDeleteAlmost forgot - it's interesting how people may view others.
At least I am "more of a person" who sides with the SBC establishment and is more pro-Brunson, pro-Gaines.
Thanks for the qualifiers.
I am pro SBC establishment on some things, not others. For example, I do not agree with the Executive Committee on whether gifts to them (not routed to through the states) are CP gifts, and I tend to believe that the Exec Committee should basically focus on the dividing up the money and doing the convention operations that are assigned to them. I am not big on ministry emphases being run out of the EC.
I have commented on the legal stuff related to your situation. I have never met Mac Brunson. I heard him give a nomination speech for Jim Richards in San Antonio, but have never heard him speak otherwise. (He may have spoken this year at the pastor's conference, but I did not hear him). I have never been to FBC Jax, and I don't believe I know anyone there.
I have never written (to the best of my recollection) about Steve Gaines or Bellevue. I really enjoyed listening to Dr. Rogers. Heard him live one time at Bellevue. I have never heard a full message given by Gaines, but have met him before. I really haven't followed the Bellevue situation or Gaines at all. I have relatives who attend Germantown Baptist - down the road, so to speak, from Bellevue. They have told me about all the Bellevue folks who have come to Germantown.
Of course, Germantown's pastor resigned last week. That's 2 pastors in about 2 years or so.
I think that Baptist life in many places is way too bellicose.
But at any rate, how I see oursleves is often different from the way others see us, especially if they only get a small slice of who we are from blog posts that are about topics others choose.
Take care.
Louis
I am on staff?
ReplyDeleteStaff of what?
Louis
Ah, I see Louis is back with his double speak.
ReplyDeleteYes, please take the advice of former and go back and read some of Louis' comments on this blog.
I have followed Louis's comments from way back on the SBC Outpost to Burleson's blog and can tell you that he has not met an SBC leader reprobate that he has not defended...in his double speak
way, of course. He claims to be a lawyer...sage and reasonable.
Louis is big on secular reasoning...not spiritual truth. He is big on titles. And is impressed with influence and power as you can see by his comments.
My guess is that he is trolling for info so he can tell us how useless WD's legal position is. He is good at that. Considering his positions over the past several years, I would not be a bit surprised if he is not dispatched from the SBC leaders to spread his 'knowledge' of such things.
And he claims to be an elder. I am sure he makes a wonderful yes man.
Guys:
ReplyDeleteSee what I mean about SBC life being bellicose?
Louis
OOOOOOOOoooooookkkkk,
ReplyDeleteThe time has come to point out your mistakes in reasoning Mr. Rich and fellow supporters.
I will start with the following quote from the pastors guidebook that Mr. Rich used in his case against Pastor Brunson:
"Some pastors unintentionally separate themselves from their people by living in executive houses and driving luxury cars. Billy Graham has lived in the same house and driven older cars for decades. He did not allow people to give him automobiles. He did not allow local committtes to furnish luxury automobiles for him during crusades. Guard against greed. It will do you in."
In this quote, we see that the authors warn against greed. We also see that they use Billy Graham as an example of a man who lived a life that wasn't tarnished by the sin of greed.
Now, it is important to understand what greed is. In short, it is the love of money or anything that is an idol, above or equal to God. To be greedy is to love money, to want it, desire it, seek after it, to make it an idol. Greed is a selfish desire to want and have things. And greed doesn't only deal with money. But the Bible says in First Timothy, I believe, that the love of money is the root of all evil.
This is greed.
Now that we know what greed is, let me give you another important distinction.
In this quote from the pastors guidebook, the authors do not say its wrong to have nice houses or nice cars or six figure salaries. They only tell us to guard against greed, the very thing that could develop in a pastors heart if he's not careful if he does have all these nice things. So its wrong to say Mac Brunson is being hypocritical by telling pastors to avoid doing one thing in a book and then doing it himself because that's just not the case. He's not saying "Do not live in nice houses, do not buy luxury cars." They are saying be watchful against greed.
Secondly, let's consider that verse again where it talks about greed. The Bible clearly says the love of money is the root of all evil. It does not say money is evil. Therefore, to have money is not a bad thing. To have a nice house is not a bad thing. To drive a nice car is not a bad thing. It only gets bad when you place the car, house, or six figure salary above the One who has blessed you with those great things. When you love God's blessings in life, instead of God, then you have sinned and allowed greed to enter your heart. When that takes place, then you have a problem.
Thirdly, you people are making an assumption or a judgement call on the pastors heart by accusing him of being greedy, and hypocritical.
The bible clearly says judge not lest ye be judged. You can't judge a book by its cover and even if you could, you don't have the right too!
Not to long ago Mac Brunson said in a sermon that when he built his house, he built it in such a way that there would be an extra room next to the garage. He said the reason for this was because he planned on moving his dad into the house to take care of him due to his detiorating health and that having a room right next to the garage would make it less of a walk for his father back and forth between the car and his room.
You can't assume that the pastor has a big house because he's greedy. Seems to me its because he's humble and obedient to the commandment of honoring our parents, not hypocritical and greedy as you might think.
And lastly, and this is just for kicks. The first article you referenced to me Mr. Rich said you were wrapping up the blog. And yet, you still blog about a church you no longer attend.
And who's hypocritical....?
I think everybody is being way too hard on Louis. I take WD's side, bar none. But you guys are being really ruthless to Louis. I recall his prior posts and usually didn't agree with them, but he's not a posting-jerk like your Mac babies are.
ReplyDeleteLighten up on Louis and show him some decency, ppl. He appears to be moderate and genuine.
Has anyone heard from Matt?
"See what I mean about SBC life being bellicose?"
ReplyDeleteI suppose you prefer fake and sneaky?
I have been reading you for a long long time, Louis. I know your game.
Just gave me another reason not to attend next year's little gathering. And I do mean "little" because the attendance is nothing near what it used to be. Now putting this clown in the pulpit assures that many will stay home. Sad.
ReplyDeleteAnon:
ReplyDeleteThanks a bunch.
I, too, prefer it when people can have different ideas and opinions, but still be civil.
Take care.
Louis
Louis said...
ReplyDeleteI am pro SBC establishment on some things, not others. For example, I do not agree with the Executive Committee on whether gifts to them (not routed to through the states) are CP gifts,
Hi, Louis,
Perhaps you can explain something that has been confusing me. I understand why state Baptist conventions and local associations would not want gifts to be given directly to the national SBC organization. But, if a church does decide to make such a direct gift, I don't understand what difference it makes if it is considered a Cooperative Program gift. How does what they are called make a difference? I'd appreciate any light you can shed on that for me.
(Speaking of gifts, my Word Verification this time is "ching")
Mr. paparazzi: It just depends on what the definition of "is" is when you define love of money. It has a broad connotation. Hollywood is one thing, Baptist preachers are altogether another!!!
ReplyDeleteOne other thing, we still have freedom of speech,(at the moment) so Mr. Rich or anyone else can say whatever they desire...its written down in the Bill of Rights right now....how long that will last is up for debate. Their opinion is as good if not better than yours. Thank you. Question: Do you like sugar on your CORN flakes?
TomRich Paparazzi: Your analysis is absolutely correct although, the anti Brunson crowd will just throw us under the bus on this.
ReplyDeleteThe things you mentioned on his house are absolutely true. The area he added for his parents added an additional bedroom and bath to the house which is 5177 square foot heated. When you take this out and the office/study which the property appraiser counts as a bedroom since it has a closet, this is a 4 bedroom, 3.5 bath house.
I have known lots of folks in Deerwood and this is not a big house for that area. It is actually smaller than the average.
Also, less than ten years ago you had people trying to sell their houses and a large majority of them would barely command in the low 200 thousand bucks.
Also, this community has been around since 1961 and is not really all that nice of a community compared to recent resort and golf community developments within the last 8-10 years.
Nevertheless, the anti Brunson folks will say the rest of us are wrong and that Brunson is a money grubbing, Bible thumping loser, that has one thing on his evil little mind and that is to fleece all of us at FBCJ.
Sincerely,
T
Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteI just came across an interesting quote:
"There are only two ways of telling the complete truth - anonymously and posthumously."
- Thomas Sowell
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteFounders Ministries Blog > A long journey in church discipline-Pt. 1.
Woody Allen said that 80% of success is showing up. If you show up long enough you get to see some special things. One of the greatest blessings of my pastoral ministry at Grace has been unfolding over the last 6 months and culminated last Sunday night. A man that we had been forced to remove from our membership due to unrepentant, public, scandalous sin was restored to our fellowship after living for more than 15 years in the far country. He has given me permission to tell part of what happened. It is a great story of God's great grace.
TRP,
ReplyDeleteBy living in an executive home and driving luxury cars isn't Pastor Brunson 'unintentionally' separating himself from his flock?
He lives at a higher standard than 99% of his flock, don't you think?
Just like Jesus did, right?
Instructing pastors to live this way is not about greed per se but about being able to help the pastor relate to his flock and helping them relate better to the pastor,right?
Thanks for posting TRP but I don't read the book the way you do.
Hello Brothers and Sisters,
ReplyDeleteHere is one reason I urge each of you to get out of the SBC and the institutions of man that call themselves churches.
Gal 5
15But if you (AC)bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, (AD)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (AE)the desire of the flesh.
17For (AF)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (AG)so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are (AH)led by the Spirit, (AI)you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: (AJ)immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, (AK)sorcery, enmities, (AL)strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, (AM)disputes, dissensions, (AN)factions,
21envying, (AO)drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not (AP)inherit the kingdom of God.
22But (AQ)the fruit of the Spirit is (AR)love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, (AS)self-control; against such things (AT)there is no law.
24Now those who belong to (AU)Christ Jesus have (AV)crucified the flesh with its passions and (AW)desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk (AX)by the Spirit.
26Let us not become (AY)boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
If your leaders in the SBC are displaying any one of these consistently as in practice (which is what 'walk' denotes), then there is a huge problem. Or, if they ignore such things of other leaders, then there is a huge problem. If they promote someone who is practicing any of these things there is a problem.
One of the problems is that we do not really KNOW our leaders. We know of deceitful deeds usually after the fact. Why would anyone follow someone they do not know personally? Paul explicitly states that those who practice such things are not saved. And he 'forewarns' twice which is serious stuff in Hebrew thinking.
Matt
Louis wrote:
ReplyDeleteI have relatives who attend Germantown Baptist - down the road, so to speak, from Bellevue. They have told me about all the Bellevue folks who have come to Germantown.
Of course, Germantown's pastor resigned last week. That's 2 pastors in about 2 years or so.
Hmmm... can you dissect that one, Lydia?
You can read a pretty good summary of GBC's history here. Yes, they've lost two pastors in a period of a little over three years, but in spite of your insinuations, that had nothing to do with the "Bellevue folks." You might also note they've had only three pastors in the past 46 years.
MATT IS BACK!
ReplyDeleteGreat to hear from you Matt.
We were wondering where you went to!
Wow, only someone from FBCJ would consider a nearly 1 million dollar house not extravagant or executive since the overall development has been around since the 60's. I don't care who you are, 1MM is extravagant. My preacher lives in a 3 bed 2 bath 1600 ft home with his wife and 3. Not a 5K+ mansion located on the golf course behind a gate. Yea, it's not extravagant, LOL, that's a good one. I have a bridge for sale downtown too, LOL.
ReplyDeleteMatt: Welcome back. Yeah...huge problem is right.
ReplyDeleteTruth Purveyor: 7/1 7:09.....
ReplyDeleteRe: the size of Macs House:
You can take out the bathrooms and the den and make it even smaller, so what! We can tell Mac is NOT slumming in the Deerwood Country Club setting. So hardship is not his problem. Many people live in MUCH less grand places and raise Godly children, while giving to others. Most of us can't afford a trip down the St. John's in a row boat much less the elegant cruise down the Danube. So please spare us the dissertation on what ORDINARY circumstances the preacher lives in. You just look foolish trying to make your lopsided point.
By the way how much are the monthly gated community fees? I would guess about half of what a one bedroom apartment is in Jacksonville. Give me a break.
ReplyDeleteTP 7:09...There is an old saying...you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time. Count me in that last group. I almost fell out of my chair reading your analysis. You belong in Washington. They would love for you to be their spokesman on the stimulus package and how little it affects the average citizen, ha,ha,ha.
ReplyDeleteI've said it once and I'll say it again. "ANYTIME",and I mean "ANYTIME" you see a Pastor or preacher or whatever,living a life of luxury off of the givings of the flock; YOU ARE DEALING WITH A DECEIVER PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!! That's always a defining sign in the Bible!!!
ReplyDeleteTRP and TP are both either naive,yes men,in ministry,Biblically ignorant or all four!!!
Junkster:
ReplyDeleteGreat question.
In the past, very few churches gave directly to the Executive Committee. Almost all gifts were sent to the states, and then the states sent 35% or so (it varies) to the SBC.
So, there was never a rule or any concern about it.
Then, in San Antonio, the Executive Committee proposed, and the convention approved a statement to the effect that "Cooperative Program" giving means giving to the state, which then gives to the SBC.
That vote doesn't mean anything from a SBC constitution or bylaw standpoint. A church that is in "friendly cooperation" with the SBC is one that gives to the SBC. There is no requirement to give to a state.
But I think that the EC was concerned that they not been seen as promoting direct giving to the SBC. They wanted to protect their relationships with the state conventions. I completely understand that.
Dr. Chapman and the EC can accept gifts directly from a church (and the IMB, NAMB and SBC agencies probably love that), but Dr. Chapman and the EC cannot been seen as promoting direct giving. The states would really get mad.
The only place this has an effect is when the church's "CP" giving is reported. Only the gifts to the states count. No gifts to the SBC count, and no direct gives to the agencies count (except maybe Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong).
That has an effect if the SBC ever gets too legalistic about "CP" giving. There are many churches who give to the SBC and to the agencies directly. But if the only giving that is reported is giving to the state, then that church's actual giving looks much less than it is.
Again, where I come down on this is let each church decide where it wants to give, and don't make a big deal about it.
That's what I understand about this stuff.
Take care.
Louis
LETERS TO READERS
ReplyDeleteFLORIDIA TIMES UNION
Thursday, July 2, 2009
Quote: REPLY FRETZ
NOT SO APPRECIATED
"Phil Fretz. our paper's homegrown Ann Coulter, recently provided readers with his usual list of negativity . . .Fretz, who is not surprisingly is on the Editorial Board . . .unless, of course, IS TO OBTAIN A SUBPOENA TO HUNT DOWN A DISSIDENT IN HIS CHURCH.....
Hey BBC Forum and Lydia:
ReplyDeleteDon't strain your brains about my reference to Bellevue and Germantown. The comment does not need to be "dissected".
What has happened at Bellevue and what has happened at Germantown are completely unrelated.
My in laws have just told me that lots of people from Bellevue have joined Germantown. For all I know, lots of people who have left Germantown have migrated to Bellevue.
And let me add that Sam Shaw's (I think that was his name) departure from Germantown was not related to the new guy's departure (don't know his name).
Shaw made lots of changes in music etc., but also wanted the church to move to an elder form of government. While I am sympathetic to that policy choice, I do not believe (personally) that Shaw made a wise move. Germantown had a rich tradition in its polity which I believe included deacons, committees etc. A common Baptist model. I would caution against trying to take a church from that model to an elder led model unless you had a huge by in, from a percentage standpoint.
For Shaw, I believe he thought that was the biblical model, and he felt called to pursue it. When it did not work out, he moved on. I think he is at First Evangelical Free Church in Jackson, MS.
The new guy that Germantown got completely bought into the polity model that Germantown had. And I think he disclaimed Calvinistic tendencies. I also don't think that he had intentions of changing the service around and all.
But apparently he wanted to make and did make enough changes that is bothered some people at Germantown, and a fight at a "low boil" ensued. I think he finally had enough and decided to move on.
The Sam Shaw matter was a fight at a "high boil". The anti-Shaw people had a website - "Save Germantown Baptist" or something like that. It was a much more public fight.
My only observation, based on what I have observed on my 2 or 3 visits to the church and talking to my in-laws is that Germantown may have a very bellicose faction that loves to go to war over minor things. But that's just a guess on my part. One would have to be deep into the organization to know all the facts.
I hope they find a pastor they like. It's hard when you have one guy for so long. It's almost inevitable that there will be difficulties for people who follow.
I do not at all consider myself to know much about Bellevue's situation, other than what is reported in papers and such. BBC forum knows a lot more than I do.
So, I wrote this just to put you two at ease. There is no conspiracy here. I am not a plant or trying to "trick" people, as Lydia says, quite often. Hopefully, that will free your day up a little bit and clear out the list of things you may be working on.
Take care.
Louis
Louis, Truth Purveyor and Paparazzi. Why don't you guys take the "Mission" trip cruise down the Danube. You all will fit in perfectly. Maybe you could even get free trips for being Mac supporters.
ReplyDeleteLouis: Please go away. Your sugar coated "analysis" is annoying and very hard to swallow.
Anony:
ReplyDeleteI would love to go on a cruise, but only if you pay and come along.
Louis
I don't think you should you lump Louis in w/ "Truth" Purveyor and that other fool Paprazzaiwhatever. The last two are the plants. Louis seems to actually be thoughtful. The other two should be ignored.
ReplyDeleteSo glad to hear from Matt! Thanks for checking in. We missed you.
Anyone know the whereabouts of It Is Written?
"Anyone know the whereabouts of It Is Written?"
ReplyDeleteJuly 2, 2009 10:37 AM
Anon I am It Is Written.
Hey IIW aka Bro Rod - Awesome! Thought we lost ya! I've been following your posts for awhile and I really enjoy them.
ReplyDeleteCheers to ya, Bro!
You know they announced that there were limited scholarships for the youth for camp.
ReplyDeleteIf you can afford to take that trip or any trip for that matter why not help out a young person instead?
Anon 8:02pm:
ReplyDeleteI quote you saying:
By living in an executive home and driving luxury cars isn't Pastor Brunson 'unintentionally' separating himself from his flock?
By asking that question, what you are really saying is it's unfair for a pastor to have a nicer car or house than you. If that's the case then yes, you will become seperated from the pastor because you believe in a socialist standard in the distribution of God's blessings.
If you're saying the sheep may become seperated from the pastor because he's living in a nicer home or drives a nicer car, you're really saying it's not fair for him to enjoy those pleasures and for his congregation not to. That is a socialist idea rooted in a heart of jealousy.
So my answer to your question is No.
"Thanks for posting TRP but I don't read the book the way you do."
Perhaps that's because you already had a preconceived idea that the Pastor is greedy and is only using the sheeps gifts and tithes to live a luxurious lifestyle...
Anon 7:05pm:
I quote you saying:
One other thing, we still have freedom of speech,(at the moment) so Mr. Rich or anyone else can say whatever they desire...its written down in the Bill of Rights right now....how long that will last is up for debate. Their opinion is as good if not better than yours. Thank you. Question: Do you like sugar on your CORN flakes?
No one is trying to take away your right of free speech. I am only trying to help you understand the fallacies in your thinking when you exercise that right of free speech.
And you and Mr. Rich's opinions are just as good and equal and valuable as mine are. Except mine are right and yours are wrong, that's all.
Tom Rich Papparzi - you're on a roll! You're doing great.
ReplyDeleteCan you please give us the offical FBC KAD views and explanations for the following?
- accepting land gift two week after arriving, and why that was a good thing and the correct thing to do, despite how that would never be viewed positively by any other secular, profit or non-profit company or agency, or govt entity?
- his arrogant statement "I'm paying for that house" and "last time I checked the fed govt said I could live anywhere I want to" and how that demonstrates humility and love and discernment? Is what the fed govt. allows our standard for Christian behavior?
- does he really "praise Jesus" that we didn't get a raise last year?
- what did Mac mean that "down in Jacksonville he's in a hotbed of legalism?"
- explain the irony of the only testimony highlighting a business, shown smack dab in the middle of a sermon, is for the relatives of the man donating the land gift\
- explain how it is right to charge Christian ministries like the Billy Graham EA $7500 to $12,500 for a "promotions package" at our PC, and to charge a ministry $750 for a table to showcase their ministry?
- explain how it is ok to use the church to advertise for a "trip down the Danube"
Don't want to load you down, but if you're willing to speak up in defense of FBC Jax, we've been waiting so please take a crack at these for starters.
Knock yourself out!
"And you and Mr. Rich's opinions are just as good and equal and valuable as mine are. Except mine are right and yours are wrong, that's all.":
ReplyDeleteJuly 2, 2009 1:49 PM
Tom don't throw your pearls before the swine(no insult meant TRP)!!!! TRP is in a state of denial and confusion as shown by his 1:49pm statement....TRP states that your opinions are just as valuable as his own.....Then he turns around and states that your opinions Tom are wrong....We'll if that's true then by the very fact that his(TRP)opinions are right would'nt that make your opinions because they are wrong less valuable than his(TRP)????
TR Paparazzi,
ReplyDeleteYour pitiful attempts to defend indefensible would be funny if it wasn't so sad to see you being so willfully blind to the obvious.
If you belong to Christ, please take these words from Him to heart:
But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteFounders Ministries Blog > A long journey in church discipline-Pt. 2.
When I received Steve's email I was overwhelmed with a sense of God's power and grace which certainly appeared to be working to rescue a man who had been living in the far country for over a decade. I wish I could say that I had lived in expectation that one day I would get a phone call or email like that. But too often, to my shame, it is easier to believe in depravity than it is in grace.
-----------------------------------
VTMBottomLine > The Ministry.
When Paul Spoke of "this ministry" in 11 Corinthians 4:1 he was speaking of the transforming work of the Spirit in ALL believers as mentioned in 11 Corinthians 3:18. To Paul "the ministry" was not something God called him "to do." Rather it was something that was to reveal what God had done in him by His Grace through the Person of Christ.
-----------------------------------
FBC Jax Watchdog said...
ReplyDeleteTom Rich Papparzi - you're on a roll! You're doing great.
I agree - actually the more comments written the easier it is to identify "the club members" . . .or best comment of the day was by this author "'Tom don't throw your pearls before the swine(no insult meant TRP)!!!!"
Everyone,
ReplyDeletePLEASE TAKE NOTICE.
Observe Mr. Rich's comment of 2:03pm.
In essence, what he has said is merely a backup plan that the anti-brunson regime has established.
Let me explain. It's quite simple really....
When a pro-Brunson contributor successfully defends his/her position on a particular issue and the anti-Brunson regime fails to defend their position on the same particular issue, the anti-Brunson regime simply refuses to acknowledge they are wrong and instead, they throw a thousand more grievances out into open water to try and paint the pastor as a greedy, rich, wolf in sheeps clothing kind of person and the church as a failing institution full of blind sheep (hence the back up plan).
Mr. Rich's comment is a perfect example of a last ditch effort to try and save himself when he knows someone has proved him wrong on an issue (hence the back up plan).
And in a swell of support comes all the anon followers of the dog to try and encourage him and lift him up.
"Just ignore the other two"-In reference to TP and TRP
"Watchdog, you're the best. You don't have to post, thank God for you."
The one that is funny is the last comment that an anon made saying:
WD you're the best!!!!
You don't have to post. Just wanted to let you know. Thank God for you.
That comment sounds so desperate and almost like a plea of support; sort of similar to the emotional instability of all the Michael Jackson fans who are distraught over his death.
Mr. Rich,
I will glady defend every issue you ask me.
But give me some time. This weekend is a holiday weekend. We are celebrating the 4th of July; the very holiday that grants us independence and freedom to enjoy our rights as a free country; specifically the right to free speech as one of your faithfull devotees so graciously pointed out.
So, don't worry. I will defend and explain every issue you have mentioned. It will all come in due time.
Junkster,
You make no sense sir. You give no reference of the verse and take it out of context to make an invalid point.
ANON: July 2, 2009 10:37 AM perhaps you should check your bible out for the penalty of calling someone a fool.
ReplyDeleteI am not a plant, nor am I a cool aid drinker, nor am I a "baptist". I am a practical thinker with my own opinion.
Also, just like I have disagreed with the Lindsay's and Vines, I have also disagreed with Mac Brunson and staff on some things also. If you have read any of my posts, you would know that.
If you have read any of my posts you will find that I actually support Tom on many issues. You will also know that I have a difference of opinion on his approach.
So to all of Tom's cool aid drinkers relax and let me and others have "their right to free and speech" and not trash us in the public arena by simply dismissing our opinions as irrelevant just because you disagree with them.
TPR, for the most part I concur with a lot of your analysis.
Sincerely,
T
TRP. While you are at it please explain; the $200,000.00+ renovation within the Childrens Building when there was decent and ample offices within the ADM Building. Also,explain the rationale of a pastors huge salary plus perks, his wifes salary and the sons. This is called nepotism in the corporate world which only occurs when the CEO OWNS the corporation. Also, how many members of FBCJ have ever received a free piece of land worth $305,000.00 after getting a new position with a firm? Just one other person identified will be appreciated. Most corporations allow gifts of less than $100.In amounts greater than that amount one could be fired or reprimanded or required to return the gift. Please answer these questions as well as the WD's. It may give us some more real insight into how you think and arrive at your decisions. You claim to be right, that is a matter of opinion. I will be looking forward to reading your answers here. By the way, there is no anti-Brunson rigime. In order for a rigime to exist they must be a part of the organization...sort of like Democrats and Republicans or Tory and Whigs, Conservative vs. Labor, etc, etc. And just for "grins", I don't think you can HELP me understand anything. I take my instruction from the Lord in the form of spiritual discernment.
ReplyDeleteA thought: Are Junkster and Paparazzi the same person? Both write in a similar juvenile and non factual manner. Ignoring reality for opinionated "blather".
concerning John 10: 1 — "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber."
ReplyDeleteThe sentence before us is a powerful and humbling one. That is condemns the Jewish teachers of our Lord’s time all men can see. There was no “door” in their ministry. They taught nothing rightly about Messiah. They rejected Christ Himself when He appeared,—but all men do not see that the sentence condemns thousands of so-called Christian teachers, quite as much as the leaders and teachers of the Jews.
Thousands of ordained men in the present day know nothing whatever of Christ, except His name. They have not entered “the door” themselves, and they are unable to show it to others. Well would it be for Christendom if it were more widely known, and more seriously considered! Unconverted ministers are the dry-rot of the Church. “When the blind lead the blind” both must fall in the ditch.
If we know the value of a man’s ministry, we must never fail to ask, Where is the Lamb? Where is the door? Does he bring forth Christ, and give Him his rightful place? (Expository Thoughts on the Gospels, Vol. 3, 176)
J.C. Ryle
Matt
Mr. Papparazzi: Would you please diagram the sentence which starts "when a Pro-Brunson". I have never seen such a long sentence. It makes an English teacher figit.
ReplyDeleteFOLIOWEEKY - June 30, 2009
ReplyDeleteNortheast Florida News & Opinion Magazine
Buzz @ buzz@follioweekly.com
GOD HELP 'EM
Pastors in jeans and sandals, edgy Christian rock and monster truck rallies
--Among the tools that the Jacksonville-based FLORIDA BAPTIST CONVENTION preached at its annual convention in annual convention in Louisville last week, as a way to draw newcomers to fight the lose of church members.
FOLIOWEEKY - June 30, 2009
ReplyDeleteNortheast Florida News & Opinion Magazine
Buzz @ buzz@follioweekly.com
GOD HELP 'EM
Pastors in jeans and sandals, edgy Christian rock and monster truck rallies
--Among the tools that the Jacksonville-based FLORIDA BAPTIST CONVENTION preached at its annual convention in annual convention in Louisville last week, as a way to draw newcomers to fight the lose of church members.
TomRich Paparazzi said...
ReplyDeleteWhen a pro-Brunson contributor successfully defends his/her position on a particular issue
The fact is that your so-called defense was not at all successful; it was so obviously flawed and pathetic as to not be worthy of a response. There is simply no point in arguing with a fence post, or with someone who has no more sense than one. If you honestly can't see how Brunson violated his own advice, and if the best explanation of why you don't think he has is what you already provided, then you are not likely to comprehend any further explanation from anyone.
Junkster,
You make no sense sir. You give no reference of the verse and take it out of context to make an invalid point.
I am not surprised that you do not see how it applies to you, sir. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Anon July 2, 2009 5:23 PM
ReplyDeleteA thought: Are Junkster and Paparazzi the same person? Both write in a similar juvenile and non factual manner. Ignoring reality for opinionated "blather".
Wow. What on earth have I ever said that could be likened to TRP? I'm sorry if you don't like my style, but my substance is always intended to be relevant and accurate. TRP and I couldn't disagree more about Brunson or about the Watchdog.
paparazzi sounds like one who says he is God's gift to the church
ReplyDeleteI would like to point out a different emphasis here.
ReplyDeleteI am not concerned about how much money Mac or his family makes. I am not even concerned about the land gift. I feel money is a side issue here.
The real issue is pride, lack of humility. I know Mac has always said he is not prideful and that he is humble. At least his sermons indicate that way. But what I am talking about is his actions or lack of actions. Not his words.
First of all, I feel that all this could have been averted if Mac boldly had a town hall meeting with all members with no retaliations to members who ask difficult questions. And he should have answered all questions truthfully and with humility.
Why humility? I think of members as investors and Mac is a hired hand and a servant to the members. But clearly, he sees differently. More as a CEO of a business organization. I have noticed lot of Pastors in SBC do the same thing.
Another thing, if Mac put the needs of members above his or his family needs, then he would not have accepted the land gift. Then he would have asked the donors to donate the money to the Church for it's ministries.
The same with the office renovation expense. He might have made do with an existing office and used the money for existing ministries.
Of course, the argument is all this was done by the Church and not by Mac. If Mac was true to The Word, he would have said NO to all this.
But my contention is not about money or the gifts, it is about leveling with the members openly and allowing members to dissent. By logic it appears, if he did the above, then he would have said NO to all the money and gifts and expenses too.
Mac is a gifted speaker when he wants to be. He is humble and preaches The Word when he wants to be. He gets sidetracked with histrionics. And that does not benefit his teaching.
Junkster: My apologies. I suppose I misread you or got you mixed up with someone else. If you support Mr. Rich then you are in the "good group". Again, if I have placed you in the wrong "column", my apologies.
ReplyDeleteThe offices of DR. Lindsay and Vines,were quite large and expansive. Not at all "shabby". But they were not the size of a house (3,000 sq ft). And they did not contain the "frills", like a library in expensive paneling etc. And don't forget room for the dogs.
ReplyDeleteHere is some description of Mac's library from Brenda Smith, daughter of Fred Smith, whose website Breakfast With Fred, teaches leadership skills for all people.
ReplyDeleteBrenda A. Smith > Greeting passer.
When you think of the perfect house is there a feature on the "must have" list? I actually have two: a secret room and a library. Dr. Brunson has captured one of those (and who knows, he may have a secret room. Bill Glass of Champions for Life does in his office!). He invited me into his office and then into his library. Floor to ceiling bookcases with books all organized and even labeled with their Dewey Decimal Codes. Do they still use those? An antique reading desk in the middle of the voluminous room served as a perfect work space.
"Here are my Fred books, he said pointing to a row." Fun.
"I would like to point out a different emphasis here.
ReplyDelete"I am not concerned about how much money Mac or his family makes. I am not even concerned about the land gift. I feel money is a side issue here."
Thy Peace you stated that you are "not concerned about how much money Mac or his family makes",but that is one of the signs of a greater problem. The fact that he takes so much money and privileges from ministry is a very serious issue.
The Apostle Paul at times would not take anything for instance from the Thessalonian church so as not to be a burden upon them; And secondly so that there would be no appearance of greed to hinder the purity of the Gospel message and his personal ministry[1Thes.2:4-12].
This love of money that's prevalent in ministry today should not be and cannot be ignored,because it reveals a greater underlying problem. Are we in the ministry for love of Christ are self-aggrandizement? Greed is,and will always be a sign of character issues until the return of the Lord Jesus[1Tim.3:3].
Now Thy Peace couple this with Mac's apparent other actions such as how he handled WD,and they add up to a serious problem. So you answered your own question when you stated;
"But my contention is not about money or the gifts, it is about leveling with the members openly and allowing members to dissent."
""By logic it appears, if he did the above, then he would have said NO to all the money and gifts and expenses too.""
Exactly Thy Peace! Now you got it!!!
Thy Peace I thank you for being so diligent in posting relevent and some off topic links. Your spiritual maturity has been nothing short of astonishing!!!
ReplyDeleteAlso got a good chuckle out of one of the bloggers I believe referring to you as "Thy Link"!!!
Pastor Rod: Well said. One thing, when people attempt to give an excuse for "things", you can be certain that THEY are concerned about "things". Have a great Fourth of July everyone.
ReplyDeleteWork Made For Hire Regulations:
ReplyDeletethe employer owns the work produced (e.g., sermons, books, etc.) if done on the employer's time and/or with its resources--unless a formal agreement reached by the employee and employer state otherwise (link: http://www.ecfa.org/TopicDisplay.aspx?PageName=TopicWorkMadeForHire).
If such agreements are not in place at FBCJ, Lakewood, Saddleback, etc., then likely the authors mentioned above as receiving large incomes actually do not own the works referred to (at least in whole), and their incomes are not entirely their own it would seem. To have set up a personal nonprofit ministry would not seem to matter if the work still were produced on the church employer's time. Which senior pastor writes sermons at times of the day which honestly can be considered his own and not the employer's time (the man's wife would have a lot to say about that!)?
Just saying. Worth church employers looking into?
Anonymous
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteFounders Ministries Blog > A long journey in church discipline-Pt. 3.
This is the third and final installment of the story of God's grace of restoration through church discipline at Grace Baptist Church. The other parts can be found here (#1) and here (#2).
When I came to serve Grace Baptist Church 23 years ago it was like many contemporary evangelical churches in that it was completely unfamiliar with biblical church discipline. There were many serious problems in the church, some of which called for corrective discipline, but the church was in no shape to administer it. I could have tried to "take the bull by the horns" and forced the issue, but even if I had been successful, the result would not have been church discipline but only pastor discipline--something that does not have the authority of the New Testament behind it.
TRP and TP - Okay, I'll bite. Since you are both so obviously plants to try and defend the indefensible and are both such masters of spin, and you both sure do sound like someone who makes their living off the giving of the gullible sheep (I could be wrong, but at least you sound that way to me) I just have a few issues I would like to see you respond to, which will pretty much tell me your responses to the other 100s of issues of abuse from "Doctor" Brunson.
ReplyDelete1.) Explain Maurilio. Period. Your views on him and his role will tell us volumes about your belief system.
2.) Tell me where tithing one's wages to a local church is taught anywhere (OT or NT) in the Bible.
3.) Tell me what ministry is being done with the $15 million per year. (Not about what minuscule percentage is given to OTHER ministries so THEY can minister, but what FBC Jax is actually doing with the money they don't give to other real ministries.)
4. Tell me why our advertising budget went up while our ministry budget went down?
5. How did you feel about the "HAH!" from your humble pastor?
6. What are your views on nepotism?
7. Why does the Pastor's guidebook say not accept expensive gifts? What is wrong with that? And why did Mac accept a $307K piece of land just 3 weeks after arriving?
8. What was the point of the "Sermon on the Mound" event? To promote Mac or to promote Jesus? Be honest. How much did that cost?
9. Who is sitting in Dr. Vine's office now?
10. Why didn't the church leaders attempt Matthew 18 once they found out Tom's identity? Why the trespass warnings to Yvette, enforced while her daughter sang?
11. Explain why Mac was right and correct and Christ-like when he called Tom a sociopath on the front page of the newspaper.
12. Why do you read this blog and why do you feel the need to try and defend a charlatan?
13. How 'bout that Deacon Resolution! Nice.
Those are just a quick baker's dozen off the top of my head. Have a nice 4th of July. I will await your replies.
"By living in an executive home and driving luxury cars isn't Pastor Brunson unintentionally separating himself from his flock?"
ReplyDeleteWake up! It's NOT unintentional at all. It's THEM (Brunson, Gaines, Patterson, and all the rest of the "do as I say and not as I do" gang and there's US (the blind followers who give)
To whoever equated Junkster with paparazzi-are you serious?
Matt and Pastor Rod-just thank you.
TRP - while you are at it, explain why the homeless only get $1K out of $15MM budget?
ReplyDeleteIt occurs to me that you are Mourilo.
Watchdog:
ReplyDeleteI'm inclined to think that you are right on the money with the silly FBC defense team's identity.
TomRich Paparazzi & Truth Purveyor are so full of baloney it would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful!
I am a former FBC insider -- and I am apparently one of many who have decided to move membership b/c FBC is sending out cards asking why folks have decided to leave -- just so "we can better serve the members" or something to that effect.
Many of the current members @FBC are there just until they can find another church. I know that b/c many of them have told me that.
The FBC defender squad is definitely made up of big-time-insiders. We can tell that b/c of their "insider" info.
I'm sure there were many at Jim Jones' church who defended him right up until the very end. I am not saying that Mac Brunson is another Jim Jones, just that the FBC defenders are blindly following Mac Brunson without looking at what has happened under his "management" since his arrival.
Sad day downtown.
Wish you all the luck in the world with your lawsuits. There's too much money and power inside FBC. They need to be exposed for what they really are, opportunists, not Christians.
ReplyDelete