Last month Kevin King preached a Wednesday night sermon at FBC Jacksonville. Below is an excerpt of the King's sermon, where he tells the members of FBC Jax that the pastor and staff are "Gifts of God" to the congregation, "Gifts of Jesus Christ" he says.Then he says that "grumbling" against the pastor is to grumble against Jesus Christ. Yep, complain about something you don't like, speak up against what is being done at church, and you are speaking against Christ himself.
The quote is:
"If you get upset with your pastor or your staff, believe it or not, we're gifts of God. These are gifts from Jesus Christ. He established this. And remind yourself: when we get upset and when I want to grumble, when I may not like something, do you know who you are grumbling against? The head. Jesus Christ. You're not grumbling against the staff, you're not grumbling against your neighbor, you're not grumbling against your pastor. Your unsettledness is with Jesus Christ." Kevin King, FBC Jax
Hearing that kind of nonsense makes me sad for the people of FBC Jax. Is that really what the relationship is between members of a church and the leaders? The leaders, paid staffers, are "gifts of God" to the congregation and therefore above being criticized or questioned or complained about? And if one dares "grumbling" or complaining about concerns or even likes or dislikes they have "unsettledness" with Jesus Christ?
That is dangerous teaching anywhere in a church - but its unbelievable that during this trying period at FBC Jax where the church is in the local newspaper over the outting and trespassing of a critical blogger - that the message coming forth is not more openness but "if you criticize or complain we'll consider you as criticizing Jesus himself".
I would welcome anyone to justify with scripture Kevin King's statements. What is sad is what Kevin King says is consistent with A.C. Soud's Deacon's Resolution 2009-1 that Soud had the congregation STAND and ratify...according to Soud "unjust criticism" is viewed as an attack on the Lord's church - and on Jesus himself.
I can't disagree with your assessment that Mr. King is completely wrong on this one.
ReplyDeleteIt is "nonsense", but I disagree it is "dangerous". I think you are using some hyperbole on that comment.
His statements are completely nonsense, non-scriptural, and to be honest an attempt at intimidation more than dangerous.
But I guess that is where you are going with this.
Dangerous in the sense that this is the kind of belief in a church that will allow a Gilyard or a Gray prey on people over an extended period of time.
ReplyDeleteAt Trinity, Gray was so loved and adored that the lay leaders were powerless to stop him when they knew he had abused. He had a woman who was one of his victims accuse him, and the leaders brushed it off as being something minor.
Perhaps at these mega churches there is the thought that the reputation of the pastor and their church - and the cash flow - is more important than truth and doing what is right. Its more important to put up a front that everything is fine, to supress unrest and criticism to give the appearance of peace, when there is really not peace - all for the sake of the pastor's reputation and the church's reputation.
Ok, I am not sure why you are bringing sex offenders into this.
ReplyDeleteEven if you do not say stuff like this from the pulpit people will naturally love you when you are a church leader that serves and leads by example, even if you have secret sins.
Really the issue is just a dumb interpretation of scripture.
Wonder what the return policy is on these gifts... because that church got stuck with a lot of junk, things that don't fit, some irregulars, and just plain ugly stuff. I'm puking at the arrogance down there. Talk about cultish...
ReplyDeleteCheck out characteristics of cult talk. This is cult talk. It is extremely dangerous for other reasons, too. They are setting themselves up as little christs. To grumble against them is the grumble against Christ?
ReplyDeleteThey are putting themselves on an equal footing with Christ with others below them.
They are also assuming that anything dissenting is 'grumbling' as in being a sin. To question them is sin. To dissent from them is sin. It is all 'grumbling'. If you can get folks to believe that, you have full power over them.
That is cult talk.
They need to be humbled. I fear for them if God decides to. But then, evidence points to the fact that the Holy Spirit left long ago. They have been turned over to their delusions. The lampstand has been removed.
I would like some scriptural backing for that view of theirs.
That's intimidation, pure and simple. In fact, that's old school intimidation - meant to strike fear in anyone thinking anything even remotely critical.
ReplyDeleteHow does anyone in their right mind sit there, week after week and listen to stuff like that? It's abusive, insulting and reeks of brainwashing.
we just got a similar sermon from our pastor here at a "megachurch" in Central Florida.
ReplyDeleteVery scary.
Of course they don't tell you what type of concerns or problems meet the threshold of what you can question the pastor/staff on.
Prior to this sermon I had no real problems, maybe some questions about some recent events, but now I have a real concern as to what is going on!
Sounds to me like King is partly right and partly wrong. The idea that a church's leaders are God's "gifts" to the congregation is biblical. Ephesians 4:10-11 says so: "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." From that it is clear that God gave pastors to prepare & build up God's people, which is the same as saying pastors are God's gift to the church. (But they are His gift to prepare the body to do ministry, not to be the bosses or rulers of the church.)
ReplyDeleteI would even agree that it is not right to "grumble", as in "complain without cause", against the church's leaders, or against other members, or about anything else in life, for that matter. When the Bible cautions against grumbling and complaining, it is referring to being discontent without a reason, and trying to cause trouble for others, when they have done nothing to deserve it. (Example: the Israelites grumbled against Moses when they became unhappy with their circumstances, even though Moses did not deserve their criticism, for he had done nothing but good for them.)
But when we hear preachers, pastors, and staff make remarks like King's, it is hard not to think they are being self-serving, and twisting the meaning of Scripture to silence justified criticism and reasonable complaints. I don't have the full context, but if that is what King was trying to do, then he is wrong on that point.
I think this also shows why these guys get so upset when anyone dares question them. Think about it. John Blount and Kevin King are laymen, who had other careers while serving faithfully for many years. I knew them both then, and respected them as good bible teachers and good men. Then, they get put on staff, start drawing salary and benefits, put the name "Reverend" in front of their name, and all of a sudden they are "God's men" and are "Gifts to us" and to question them is to question God. Sorry, guys, I still have respect for you, and you are still good bible teachers and relatively good guys, but I don't see you as being any more spiritual than you were before you started making thousands of dollars per month from the offerings. So please, don't try to silence people's concerns and questions by telling us you are God's gift to us and that we can't grumble against you or question you when you get out of line. Thanks fellas. :)
ReplyDeleteTo err is human. Not to err is God. God only gave one GIFT to man which is Jesus Christ and Him alone. Whenever man believes he is a gift from God he sets himself up as God...this is New Age and cult mentality...pure and simple.
ReplyDeleteGod will allow us in our glorified state to judge people but not now in these sinful bodies. At our best we are but filthy rags. Get that...filthy rags. Not much of a gift in that sense, huh??
Unfortunately, this is business as ususal at FBCJ. This church died when Lindsay died. At that point the "powers" took over. I can't believe that some of these same "leaders" were in the pews when Lindsay was preaching. Were they playing church then, and are they playing church now?
ReplyDeleteThey accuse the Catholics of worshiping Mary and the Pope. Yet this latest declaration, that if you criticize or question any of them you are attacking God!!! Really now, who is playing Pope now. I have seen so much unkindness to members down there, I wonder how anyone stays there unless they bow and scrape at the appropiate time. But, this God complex started after Lindsay died and has infected those who have allowed it. The business is to keep control, and keep the money coming in. I am afraid that FBCJ will never recover it's good standing in the community, and indeed, more importantly it's concern for lost souls, unless the leadership sheds it's royal picture of themselves and faces God with humility and repentance. As it is now FBCJ is a perfect picture of the church of Laodicea!
"Ephesians 4:10-11 says so: "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up."
ReplyDeleteWell Junk, How do we recognize those who really have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Good fruit?
They certainly would not be quoting such things as King did.
And lets keep in mind that in the NT church all were developing spiritual gifts to edify the Body. Not just a few. In Corinthians we see Paul recommending that 2or 3 prophesy and the others judge. Can you imagine that today? there were not any 'pulpits' either. We had no protected professional class of Christians. Many died marytr deaths.
But let us not forget all the 'no lording it over passsages' and the one anothers. And the greatest will be the servant of all.
There are NO leaders in the Body of Christ. There are only servants. the overseers are mature in the faith and KNOW how lowly they really are. Jesus Christ is the leader. The rest are only depraved humans saved by grace if they are saved at all. (If they want power, influence and wealth, they are most likely not saved because they are showing rotten fruit)
":10-11 says so: "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." From that it is clear that God gave pastors to prepare & build up God's people, which is the same as saying pastors are God's gift to the church. (But they are His gift to prepare the body to do ministry, not to be the bosses or rulers of the church.)"
ReplyDeleteLike Diotrephes.
Turn out the lights Tom. Your party is over. Give up the bitterness before it completely consumes you.
ReplyDeleteJunkster,
ReplyDeleteAlso read in Eph 4 that He gave some prophets. Read the OT and see how many times they, the prophets, spoke against the priest. They regularly called them out.
SAB
Dr Lindsay said that we are all equal, clergy and laity, because we all had to be purchased by the blood. The clergy as he stated is not to be elevated above the laity. Did you get that?
ReplyDeleteYou may remember his sermon on the eye, the foot, and the ear. They all together make up the body just as each; member of a church is part of the body of the Lord. One of the main charaistics of a true pastor is the servant attitude. I mean a real servant attitude, not a pretense in order to fool the "foolish". We see "the crocodile tears" coming from the actor preachers trying to lead the weak minded into thinking they have a REAL pastor. I know you all have seen this scenario at one time or another. I, wonder sometimes about preachers that don't give their own salvation testimony. A new concept would be allowing a question and answer period after a sermon and INVITATION. Maybe a 30 minute time limit or a limited # of questions, but this would certainly inspire a congregation to "get to know" whether they have a spirit filled, servant pastor or an arrogant, self-serving MAN masquerading in the pulpit. I have noticed the invitation time, if there is one, has little or no spiritual power. This is probably the most important part of the service. I would hope that the Lord is in charge and not just the earthen vessels.
Once individuals believe they are better than someone else whether in the clergy or the laity look out. They will suddenly become aware that they are nothing in the eyes of God if they do not listen to the Holy Spirit. That is so important, and why pastors should never get into the pulpit unless they are filled with the Spirit, otherwise its just the flesh talking. And how many pastors are on television speaking in the flesh?
When Criswell was here in 1998 at age 90 he was full of the Spirit and God blessed his preaching. What was his text? "Give me that old time religion". Yes, thats what the church needs today...the old time religion. Not marketing, not productions, not programs, not another gospel, just the old time gospel. God get us back to the way it was meant to be. Like Criswell, Lindsay(s), Paul and Silas it's good enough for me.
"Turn out the lights Tom. Your party is over. Give up the bitterness before it completely consumes you"
ReplyDeleteI have followed this blog for sometime and never sent a message until now but totally disagree with this comment - likewise I am a longtime member of FBC, seasoned believer, and see no "bitterness" in shared opinions on this blog and I commend FJW for not listening to the "minority" to end his "so called party" as it appears the party has a large attendance.
Smyrl is not the "humble" young man he was when he came - indeed his change in demeanor is quite noticible - I'm in the background with how I serve however after I encourage a "Cathlolic" neighbor to come for 2 years she finally came - whe was in the service when Smyrl spoke to the audience on Catholic's. Will she come back (?) Was I upset, yes.
The message from King was ridiculous - they piggyback the same pep talks in Sunday School. Am I grumbling - no, I am sad that we have no "Shepherd" at FBC any more - I also don't like hearing from the pulpit about Ms Debbies pedicure, manicures, tracking system to find her way around the house - we are not bitter bloggers - perhaps hurt, starting with the way the "firing" of Rev. Barton was handled. . word spreads!
Personally I have no clue to the blogger, his family nor he knows me and but I most definitely know when TRUTH is justified - the front page of FTU was a poor testimony on behalf of all of us and quite frankly embarassing comments from both Brunson & Soud. It's an individual's right to express concern (without bittterness) about watching their beloved church being turned into a broken down ghost town - the blogger is not destroying the church - but the leadership. The Search Committee hired a good preacher but not a Shepherd!
"Turn out the lights Tom. Your party is over."
ReplyDelete(laughing hard) Yea, you wish....!
Would the last true Christian to leave FBCJax grab the Alter on your way out? Thank you.
ReplyDeleteWill the last member to leave FBCJax please turn out the lights as you leave. Thank you.
ReplyDelete"The clergy as he stated is not to be elevated above the laity. Did you get that?"
ReplyDeleteWhere does the term 'laity' come from? There is NO laity in the Body of Christ. This concept was invented by man.
Jon Zens has some excellent teaching at his site "searching together" and on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnAYSQrCtYw
When we learn truth it is so freeing for the Body. There is NO laity in the Body. Only clergy as in ministers.
Matt
Matt: Laity as defined by Websters dictionary...laymen as a class or group, especially as distinguished FROM the clergy. Hope this helps as the laity does exist. It makes up 99.9% of the saved congregation.
ReplyDeleteProblem is you folks do not believe in Pastoral Authority in the Church. Most of you still have your Mommas milk on your breath and you can't handle a real man speaking the real word. What you want is your ears tickled and these brothers are bringing you the truth and nothing but the truth!Go to that feel good church that has Dr. Phil as the Pastor...come back when you can handle the steak!
ReplyDeleteOl' Kev might want to take some refresher courses in New Testament at the nearby seminary.
ReplyDeleteEphesians 4 does emphasize that a part of the gifts the Lord Jesus gives to His church are gifted believers who are responsible for equipping other believers for their works of service (though, as a vocational minister I know: much of the time, those saints are NOT much motivated--so, often, very little equipping actually gets done). But nowhere in that Scripture passage does it suggest that to complain against a minister is to complain against the Lord. Lots of ministers do absolutely stupid things and, though their POSITIONS should continue to be respected, the men themselves must re-earn the trust they once had.
This blogsite has suggested for months and months that that is what has taken place at FBCJax. With more preaching like Kevin's, ones like me will believe it.
Kevin, if you're reading here, brother, go back to THE BOOK to study a little more. Thanks.
It is not the end of FBC. FBC will still be going strong when Tom has passed on. This blog has been an atrocity and a terrible blight on Christianity. Has Brunson done wrong? Yes...but the repeated attempts to air this publicly has no value or Kingdom service. Tom said early on, he had no intention or desire to meet with Brunson. Tom should have left then. FBC is no more of Tom Rich's business.God does not need Tom Rich to correct His church. Turn out the lights...
ReplyDeleteA leader leads by example. Gods gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ. A Paster is to lead us, that does not mean they are better than us.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:09 - let me guess...Steve Wilcox? Did I guess correctly?
ReplyDelete"The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."
ReplyDeleteAdolf Hitler
1937
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteProblem is you folks do not believe in Pastoral Authority in the Church. Most of you still have your Mommas milk on your breath and you can't handle a real man speaking the real word. What you want is your ears tickled and these brothers are bringing you the truth and nothing but the truth!Go to that feel good church that has Dr. Phil as the Pastor...come back when you can handle the steak!
June 5, 2009 10:25 PM
If this is an example of how "mature" Christians think and communicate, I will stick to the "pure milk of the word" and keep hanging out with the babies and little children, Jesus seemed to enjoy being around them, too.
Matt: Laity as defined by Websters dictionary...laymen as a class or group, especially as distinguished FROM the clergy. Hope this helps as the laity does exist. It makes up 99.9% of the saved congregation.
ReplyDeleteJune 5, 2009 10:12 PM
Sorry, I did not know Webster's was Inspired by the Holy Spirit. I can only go by what is taught in the NT about the Body of Christ.
BTW: I heard they added 'ain't' as a defined word to newer additions.
Matt
The term laity comes from ancient writing and its meaning is "the people of God". So the laity is the church and the church is the laity. The concept of the priesthood of the believer means that the laity are all priests. Ergo, we are all responsible for the spiritual well-being of our fellow humans and must both lift them up to God and share the good news with them.
ReplyDeleteThere is no hierarchy in a Baptist church -- we are all priests and all laity. And the ground is level at the foot of the cross where all are saved by grace through faith.
None deserves praise or adulation except the one who died for our salvation.
"A lie that is left unchallenged, is perceived and believed as the truth."
ReplyDeleteGood Job Tom, a true church purifier. I appreciate your standing up for Jesus and HIS, and not any of these deceivers, Church.
The Truth is Marching on!
Doug
I haven't been on here in a while but when I read this morning I found the usual dribble about Lindsey being the incarnation and Tom Rich being the poor persecuted saint.
ReplyDeleteI checked this weekend with a few pastors who knew Lindsey personally and they assured me that he was a great man--but also very dictatorial. I knew Dr. Criswell personally and also can attest to his dictatorial methods. They were great preachers but not Jesus incarnate.
Its time to quit deifying the past and get on with real life.
Tom, that includes you. Forget FBC, Jax and all your rants and move on to serving Jesus in your new church.
Matt: I have enjoyed and appreciated much of your past commentary. The only time I find fault is when you are unnecessarily unkind or sarcastic, as you were to me in my use of the word laity. If laity is not IN the bible, so what, it is a descriptive,TRANSLATED word only, used by many. I never said it was "in" the Bible. I used it as a "term", as Dr. Lindsay used it in his remarks.
ReplyDeleteNow,I must say a word or two about my own Bible study. I have been a Christian for many, many years and probably hold the Holy Bible in more reverance, as Gods Word, than many people. I have studied the Bible extensively for probably longer than your age. I have been told by preachers I know, that I could receive a Doctorate on some commentary I have written. I say this not to brag on myself, but to let you know that I am not a casual reader or uninformed "hick" when it comes to Gods Word. I have asked the Lord to give me knowledge and insight when reading His Word, as many also do. The knowledge that I have is a blessing from Him. I do not claim to "know it all", as I depend on HIM for understanding. I make no claim as to my own significance before Him. I am a sinner saved by Grace, no more important before God than anyone else. I truly believe that. I am thankful for Jesus dying on the Cross to save me, from my sins. I totally depend on the Lord for any knowledge or insight only He can give.
I am probably more of a "purist" than most people when it comes to the written Word. I also am a King James Only person. Now I know saying that, I have inflamed many, but please spare your comments as I don't care, and it will "clutter" up the blog. Matt, I noticed you mentioned in a past blog., that you use a NKJV, a TRANSLATION also, as well as others, so I wonder why a TRANSLATED word like laity offends you. I am suprised that you now find fault with the word laity that isn't in the Bible, when so much of the NKJV (which is a rehash of the ASV, even putting back in some verses that the ASV had taken out), changes many words from the Greek and Hebrew over and over. The NKJV has many problems with it's translation, it leaves out and changes critical wording and doctrine as do the others. But,critizing is not my purpose here. I don't like to critize other peoples Bibles, nor do I like them critizing mine. I do not wish to enter into a discussion on Bible translations, as it does no good. I leave it to others to find the truth for themselves. I find, you can't "tell" anyone anything when it comes to Bible beliefs, unless they are open to discussion. So I try to limit my own discussion (unless asked) to witnessing the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ to lost people, when given an opportunity. The question of Bible wording and translations will probably not be settled on this earth. And when believers get to Heaven then we will all have all knowledge. I do find fault when I read or hear someone take away the diety of Christ or blaspheme His Word, or pervert it. Many cults have gotten started on a bad interperation of Gods Word. I respect you and my other Brothers and Sisters in Christ and, I pray for believers daily. I pray for the lost to come to Christ while there is time and while they still can. We are losing our freedoms and religious freedoms daily. It is so very important that we take the Gospel to as many as we can, while we can. So, whether you or I want to use the word laity or not, is really insignificant at this point. I used it to describe the saved members in order to distinguish them from the clergy, just as Dr. Lindsay used it in one of his sermons on Revelation. I have a tape of this sermon. I believe in the Priesthood of the believer, and will always ask for Gods Wisdom in every part of my life and understanding. We do appear to have one other thing in common, in that, we support Mr. Rich, in his endeavor. Please excuse the length of my comments, but I consider them important to be said, at least to me. Thanks. "To God be the Glory. Great things He hath done". Blessings to you.
"Matt: Laity as defined by Websters dictionary...laymen as a class or group, especially as distinguished FROM the clergy. Hope this helps as the laity does exist. It makes up 99.9% of the saved congregation."
ReplyDeleteStrange, I thought this was quite sarcastic as a response to me.
Goes to show how we cannot really gauge written words. Why would someone use Websters to define a word invented by men that is NOT in scripture? That was my concern.
You cannot have both "priesthood" of believer and laity. Who are the priests and who are the laity? The answer: We are all priests now and Jesus Christ is our High Priest.
You seem to revere Dr. Lindsay and hang on his every word. If he believed in the clergy/laity concept then he was wrong. But most who make their living from the priesthood usually teach that there is a special group of earthly priests called pastors. Other denominations actually call them Bishops, priests, etc. In any event, they view it as some sort of divine office that is above other lesser (laity) believers.
NT scripture does not support this distinction in the Body. All who are saved are called to be ministers. A 'pastor' is just another believer with a certain gift. There may be even more than one of them in a local Body.
BTW: I use many translations. I prefer to use the interlinear. There are no inerrant "translators". But the Holy Spirit teaches us through the Word. Without the Holy Spirit, the Word is just another history book or big book to hit folks over the head with.
My concern with the KJV (I use the NKJV) is King James, himself. And the fact the translators were laboring under his tenuous reign and would not have dared translate in a way to take away what they thought of us human divine right of kings, magistrates, bishops, etc. Since the church and state were the same thing, that is significant and something to be aware of. You cannot deny that was the situation at the time.
Have you ever read WHY he wanted a new translation? Why Tyndale's wasn't good enough?
Seems we will have to disagree on several things including that there is a special class of professional Christians. But I found it real strange you gave me a definition of a word that is not found in NT scripture. The concept is not even found there. It is totally a man made concept. Ever wonder why the temple veil was torn in two on the Cross?
Matt
Where the word Clergy came from:
ReplyDeleteThe English word "clergy" is related to the Greek word "cleros". It means "a lot or inheritance". For example, in 1 Peter 5:3 the elders are exhorted not to lord it over "the lots" (Greek: ton cleron), which refers to the entire flock of God's people. Nowhere in the New Testament is any form of "cleros" used to designate a separate class of "ordained" leaders. Instead, it refers to the "inheritance" (Greek: clerou) laid up for all the saints (Col. 1:12; Acts 26:18). The saints as a collective whole are conceived of in the New Testament as God's "inheritance". We have utterly perverted and turned upside-down the New Testament teaching by using the term "clergy: to refer to a special elite group of church leaders.
Matt
For the sake of clarity, I have used Clergy and priesthood interchangably. That is probably confusing. I apologize. It is just a word that most are familiar with and think of as special class of Christians. Almost like having temple priests.
Never trusted King. Always had a dreadful ominous spirit about him. In fact, I had this feeling about the entire Outreach staff. Glad I am away from it. It is not from God and the people King speaks of are definitely not gifts from God.
ReplyDeleteMatt: We have entire religions that are man made so why quibble just to win "your" point on one word!!!!
ReplyDeleteSounds to me like King is partly right and partly wrong. The idea that a church's leaders are God's "gifts" to the congregation is biblical. Ephesians 4:10-11 says so: "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up." From that it is clear that God gave pastors to prepare & build up God's people, which is the same as saying pastors are God's gift to the church. (But they are His gift to prepare the body to do ministry, not to be the bosses or rulers of the church.)
ReplyDeleteI would even agree that it is not right to "grumble", as in "complain without cause", against the church's leaders, or against other members, or about anything else in life, for that matter. When the Bible cautions against grumbling and complaining, it is referring to being discontent without a reason, and trying to cause trouble for others, when they have done nothing to deserve it. (Example: the Israelites grumbled against Moses when they became unhappy with their circumstances, even though Moses did not deserve their criticism, for he had done nothing but good for them.)
But when we hear preachers, pastors, and staff make remarks like King's, it is hard not to think they are being self-serving, and twisting the meaning of Scripture to silence justified criticism and reasonable complaints. I don't have the full context, but if that is what King was trying to do, then he is wrong on that point.
Matt: We have entire religions that are man made so why quibble just to win "your" point on one word!!!!
ReplyDeleteJune 6, 2009 5:58 PM
I agree there are many man made religions. One reason there are so many is because of the clergy/laity distinction that has been taught as truth since the time of Constantine. (Some say before)
There is NO distinction in the Body of Christ. Only different giftings.
What if every pastor taught that everyone hearing him is to grow in Holiness and knowledge of the Lord more than him. That they would no longer need him but would go and plant other churches and teach others. How do you think the early church grew?
That he would pray to God that those he is preaching to would surpass him in spiritual maturity? And he would admonish them Not to believe what he teaches but to test every single word out of his mouth?
A great Awakening could come if more in the Body of Christ would see that they, too, are ministers with anointing if they are truly saved. They are expected to mature in the faith and serve others. Not lead others. But serve others with truth and love. The only authority is the Word and Jesus Christ. All believers are mere servants to each other and vessels of truth.
The clergy/laity distinction brings death to the Body of Christ. It has all throughout history. If you track the early church, you would see that our system of one man preaching before a room of spectators was taken from the pagan temple tradition of orators. It is a Greek tradition. Not a Christian tradition. If you read closely in the NT, you will see that much of the 'preaching' took place outside the meetings of the Body of Christ. I know that is hard to believe. But it is interesting to study. There are exceptions but not many.
If you look at the great Awakenings throughout history they were not started by men. They were spirit led. Man cannot manufacture such a thing. God uses men but many times it is not those with influence.
This very post shows the vapidity of the clergy/laity distinction. There is no Christian caste system. If we believe there is a clergy/laity distinction then all one would have to do receive a M Div, get his title of pastor through ordination and then proclaim himself a 'Gift from God'.
It does not work that way. In a believers life and in the Body of Christ, everything worthy is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit indwelling within us. The problem is the lack of discernment and poor teaching of the Word to recognize truth. Too many with the title enjoy the position it brings them. So, let's forget titles and focus on the gifts of the Holy Spirit within the Priesthood.
Matt
Dog why do never post about your new church? Why do we never hear about all the great stuff they are suppost to be doing? You are looking more and more obsessed with FBC Jax.
ReplyDeleteMatt: You got it. WHAT IF!!! Unfortunatly the present church age we live in is LAODICEA. The great awakenings were led by George Whitfield, Charles and John Wesley they did not compromise their calling.
ReplyDeleteWe have no great evangelist preachers today...like those above, and Billy Sunday, Dwight L Moody, Obadiah Ham, etc.. They have all departed. They have not been replaced.
Strange that you mention the Professional class of Christians. Do you not know that some Baptist churches have a Professional Class comprised of doctors, lawyers, and entreprenuers only, in that class? Admission into these classes are most of the time, by invitation only. What was that verse about "Giving place to man"., etc. Yes, I am familar with the veil torn in the temple. We don't need it anymore as Christ Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.
Even come quickly Lord Jesus as He is the only one who can deliver man from this wicked and evil generation. Amen and amen.
Here's a worthwhile article for the readers (and author) of this blog:
ReplyDeleteThose We Trust and Those We Marginalize
An excerpt:
If you are a leader, don’t be threatened by people who seek to hold you accountable. Don’t be put off by those who ask the hard questions, even if they come across as skeptical. These skeptics are giving you an opportunity to win their trust. They can become your most loyal supporters if you take the time to answer their questions honestly and transparently.
If you’re a loyal supporter, don’t be afraid to ask honest questions of your leaders. Ask with a positive expectation, not a tone of skepticism. A wise leader will take your courage to ask tough questions as an indication that you fully expect reasonable answers. He’ll know that you’re not one to live in denial and will view this as a sign of integrity.
My guess is dog'd new pastor doesn't write books telling pastors they should do certain things while he does those things himself.
ReplyDeleteDog's new pastor may actually answer questions too. What a novel thought!
Do any of you who are members of FBC, Jax and come on here complaining and ripping the staff actually like anything about your church? If you're not actively working and serving to make it better then why don't you get the heck out of Dodge?
ReplyDeleteTom, why not post some pictures and articles about your new church. That is assuming that you are actually attending and doing something worthwhile. I tend to think you are too busy focusing on Mac Brunson and FBC, Jax to do much good in your new church.
Anon 3:54 Are you a member of FBC?
ReplyDelete"Unfortunatly the present church age we live in is LAODICEA."
ReplyDeleteThere are no church "ages." Step out of your dispensational box.
Anon 5:48. How old are you 12? You obviously know little of anything concerning the church age which is understandable at your young age. You need to have your parents explain the book of the Revelation to you.
ReplyDelete"Do you not know that some Baptist churches have a Professional Class comprised of doctors, lawyers, and entreprenuers only, in that class? Admission into these classes are most of the time, by invitation only. What was that verse about "Giving place to man"., etc."
ReplyDeleteTo my everlasting shame I was a part of this tripe. It gets even worse. Many evangelicals build homes in gated communities together.
I know of several who bought land together for a upper class development for 'like minded' evangelicals. Some even bought condo buildings in Fla together so their vacations would be safe from the least of these.
USA Today did a story on this a few years ago. they did not even touch the surface of this.
Matt
"Problem is you folks do not believe in Pastoral Authority in the Church."
ReplyDeleteCan you tell us exactly what "Pastoral Authority" means and entails?
I can tell you that Pastoral Authority is a man made concept. Its not found in scripture as some would have you believe. If it exist in any form, it is the trait of a servant attitude not one of lordship, pride, arrogance, importance, first in line, all knowing, all wise, self ruling, better than anyone else, rude, and dumbing down to fellow believers, to whom the pastor is to be a SHEPERD. Jesus Christ is THE authority in every Christians life. The Pastor/Shepherd is to "Preach the Word". 1 Peter Chp.5 vs:3: "Neither as being lords over Gods heritage, but being ensamples to the flock".
ReplyDeleteKeep preaching Bro king and Tom can take all of the people with him to HELL
ReplyDeleteOff Topic:
ReplyDeleteChrista Brown's book is finally out.
Stop Baptist Predators Blog > This Little Light.
This Little Light is a combination memoir and exposé that not only tells my personal story, but also documents the beginning of activist efforts to bring clergy accountability to Baptist-land. You can see more info about the book on this new blog-site: ThisLittleLight-TheBook.
You can see the full cover of the book - front and back - here.
The book is available on Barnes and Noble and Amazon, or you can order it from your local bookstore.
Many people are brainwashed by their pastors. I know that sounds harsh, but many of these preachers are into self-promotion and they'll do anything to exalt themselves. I am a member of First Baptist Dallas. Mac did this when he was here and it's already happening with our current pastor. They get anything they want by smooth talking and telling the people it's God's will. Some of them aren't far from being like Robert Tilton and Benny Hinn!
ReplyDeleteAnother anonymous blogger outed ...
ReplyDeleteNYT > The Outing of Publius.
On Saturday morning, Ed Whelan sent an e-mail to John Blevins that read, in its entirety:
I am reliably informed that you use the pseudonym publius to blog at Obsidian Wings. Please confirm or deny.
A few hours later, Blevins responded:
I am not commenting on my identity. For a variety of private, family, and professional reasons, I write under a psuedonym. If I wanted to publicly disclose my name, I would do so.
A few hours after that, Whelan e-mailed Blevins, calling him a “coward,” and posted “Exposing an Irresponsible Anonymous Blogger,” in which he outed the “publius” who posts at Obsidian Wings as “law professor John F. Blevins of the South Texas College of Law.”
The outing, which provoked reams of responses over the weekend and is still being actively discussed, is in some ways is the first blood of the Sonia Sotomayor confirmation.
Who is Publius?
Obsidian Wings > Thanks All.
Obsidian Wings > Outing Publius.
Obsidian Wings > On Publius.
Anon 11:13 AM,
ReplyDeleteYour response is typical of FBC Supporters...blind enthusiam and head in the sand comments. I mean here is a whole blog article on Rev Kevin King's recent comments about how he in essence says he and the other staff are essentially above criticism and all you can do is say 'keep preaching bro king'. At least you could try to defend Rev King's comments. Get your head out of the sand and pay attention.
Thanks Tom for trying to keep FBC leadership accountable.
It's hopeless, trying to reason with these "God complex" types. They've been "anointed". The inmates are in charge of the asylum!!!!!
ReplyDeleteHere is an excerpt from Joe Scarborough's new book. I couldn't help but think Mac, King, Blount and others at FBCJ could use this same advise.
ReplyDeleteOn Ronald Reagan:
While Reagan was the most conservative president in half a century, his moderate personality allowed the Gipper to remain firmly in the mainstream of America's consciousness... The Ronald Reagan who revealed himself to American voters was always sunny in disposition, measured in tone, and gracious to those with whom he disagreed... Conservatives who wish to carry the mantle of Mr. Reagan would do honor to his memory if they focused as much on his moderate temperament as they did on his conservative philosophy.
Off Topic:
ReplyDeletelet's stop pastor darrell gilyard together > The Trail of Tears.
Since the plea bargain I have received so many emails from caring people from my past, people that also watched Darrell Gilyard preach back in the late 80's early 90's and revered him. Most of these people knew of my situation with him and also of the scandal that that all became public once his past was fully seen. But there are still many that simply did not know and are now shocked. They wondered what happened to him, why he wasn't a regular at First Baptist any longer, but assumed he just moved on. There have been pictures of our church youth group tour days posted on the popular "facebook" site, in many of these Darrell is sitting in a pew with his arms around teen girls and no one thought much of it. They have held onto the pictures and just see the memories of being with this "famous pastor" and of the fun we had as a huge group of kids that love the Lord and were on the road telling people about Jesus. No one really saw any red flags, atleast not any that they mentioned. Why, you may ask? Because he was presented to us as a Pastor/Evangelist that we were very blessed to have the honor of touring with, and because we should have been able to trust him. Because people just don't think to be careful of a Pastor, to be weary of "innappropriate behavior". I am sure at that time if anyone had a "complaint" it would have been scrutinized and maybe even blamed as "overactive teen imagination". After all, this is the "great Darrell Gilyard", a famous southern Baptist Preacher. Many were fooled, epecially his victims.
Do as I say, not as I do...It should be noted that A.C. Souds SS class is not participating in the small group thing because "they have alot of BIG tithers and they do what they want". That is a direct quote from a member. Also, alot of dedicated leaders and teachers have been purged or quit for not paticipating in the group think. Rev Tom Crisp and Nelson Sturgill to name just a few. Tithes and attendance is down. Bye, bye little Kevin and Johnny Boy. Only the yes men and b_tt kissers are left.
ReplyDeleteBlue Jones,
ReplyDeletePls clarify these three points.
Crisp & Sturgell have been purged?
Also, what do you mean bye bye Johnny Boy & little Kevin?
And only the bk'ers yest men remain?
B.Jones-4:12: Applause,applause!!!! I am glad to hear someone bring word from the Prosessional class that did not go through the "professional censors". As to Rev. Crisp and N. Sturgill getting to "join" the rest of us that have been "dumped", bet they didn't think things would get this bad. Some tried to warn but you know how it is, it isn't possible for anything to happen UNTIL it happens to you. But not to worry gentlemen, you are in very good company with the rest of us. I just wish someone had "listened" much earlier. There is one area where favorites are not played. That would be in the group of people that oppose the current tactics of leadership. If ANYONE opposes or is NOT on board, favoritism will not exist. ALL dissenters will get the "treatment". I have new found respect for Rev. Crisp and Mr. Sturgill, if they are truly on the "outs" with the "powers".(?) Hopefully they are not drinking the "kool-ade". Does anyone know?
ReplyDeleteI for one would LOVE to know the TRUTH about Sturgill and Crisp. I find it very hard to believe, but would so love to believe that their eyes have been opened. Very skeptical of that. What about Eric & Cassie, are they still there? Could anyone please verify??
ReplyDeleteOn a seperate note, I asked to be dropped from the rolls several months ago and received one of those benign "birthday cards" from the Brunsons last week. So I guess my resignation was a NO. It's such a waste of God's or Mac's money to mail these high end cardstock items with photos of them and their dogs on them. Do you know how much money it must cost to send birthday cards to the 25,000 plus people on the rolls? It has absolutely no meaning to the Kingdom. They don't even know that I resigned. I'm sure someone will love my sentiments on the "Return To Sender" card sent back with a note to "Donate to the Watchdog Legal Fund Instead" on the envelope.
It appears according to Mr. King's assessment Martin Luther was in violation of this theology as well. Maybe we all need to return to Catholicism as we are still known as PROTESTants.
ReplyDeleteThere are big changes being made in high school as well. They will still have small groups but they have consolidated classes into 'regions' now not by zip. Guess that is because attendance is so low. Some long time teachers won't be teaching any more either.
ReplyDeleteWhen a high schooler who knows the Bible can tell that Rev King is blowing smoke with his statement then I think that speaks volumes to how far away from Bible knowledge the general congregation has gone.
It appears according to Mr. King's assessment Martin Luther was in violation of this theology as well. Maybe we all need to return to Catholicism as we are still known as PROTESTants.
ReplyDeleteJune 9, 2009 6:27 PM
Very good point and why King's comment are vapid and reposition a scripture to fit his agenda.
Former FBC Insider June 9, 2009 6:16 PM - If you wait long enough, FBC stops sending you the birthday cards. As former members who left 12 years ago and joined another church in town, we only receive the solicitation for money letters now. Since we didn't join another Southern Baptist church, our names will be forever on the rolls of FBC, I guess.
ReplyDeleteFormer FBC Insider: You will eventually end up in the "Archives". I call it the basement. But that's OK, since that is where I was most of the time I was an attending member. If you have an independent thought that runs contrary to the leaders, then the basement is the place for you. And Heaven help you if you follow the leading of the Lord instead of them, that can get you "fired" from any service at all. They leave you on the "roll", so to speak, so they can still claim the have 25,000, or whatever "fantasy" number they want, as members. The only other way is by moving your membership, or by death. You must be a member "in good standing" in order to get your letter sent to another church you join. This I believe is in the "fantasy by-laws" no one has a copy of. Know, that if they are "displeased" with you, you probably won't be getting your letter sent becaus you won't be in good standing with "them". Who cares!!! Another man made concept down the drain. Thank goodness, I don't need a letter to get into Heaven. The Lord Jesus has bought and paid for my admission with His own blood. I trust Him and no man. Their membership numbers are just about as real as the notion that they are still a Spirit filled, and Spirit led church. It is my opinion that the Spirit left that church (?) a long time ago, maybe when Dr. Lindsay died. It's more like a business club now, that exist for the preacher, deacons, trustees, and other strutting "peacock personages". But the rest of the congregation gets to pay for the "club". But, hey, where else can you get so much entertainment. Just don't let them know you arn't drinking the kool aid. Because they will check to see how much money you give, and out you go. With or without a "trespass notice". I didn't get one of those, if I had I would have framed it. It is interesting that some of those same people that looked down their noses at me, because I had been "marked", now are getting "shabby" treatment themselves. Pony up the money folks, then you can stay a little longer and "be somebody"!
ReplyDelete"It is my opinion that the Spirit left that church (?) a long time ago, maybe when Dr. Lindsay died. It's more like a business club now, that exist for the preacher, deacons, trustees, and other strutting "peacock personages".
ReplyDeleteJune 10, 2009 8:57 AM
Amen brother! I agree whole-heartedly!!!
"It's more like a business club now, that exist for the preacher, deacons, trustees, and other strutting "peacock personages". But the rest of the congregation gets to pay for the "club". But, hey, where else can you get so much entertainment"
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% also because First Dallas was and is the same way.
Would the last true Christian to leave FBCJax grab the Alter on your way out? Thank you
ReplyDeletePlease do this for the ones who need something tangible to worship. If possible, could a man named Aaron do this so we can be like it was in the bible. It matters not that the Shekinah glory of God is within sight. We need to have our personal altar.
I was completely ignored by the staff at FBCJax for two solid years while I tried to serve in their outreach program. And when I say ignored, I mean completely IGNORED. They did not want to hear ANY ideas to improve the outreach program. To this day, I have not even received an acknowledgement that I had in fact presented an idea. I imagine this is what the WD encountered when he expressed his concerns. HOW DARE THEY suggest they were willing to talk. I am convinced they just want your money. Pay up and shut up. I fear that it is becoming almost impossible to find a church that is truly serving the Lord. They are all just businesses. Perhaps Harold Camping from Family Radio is right. The Church Age has ended.
ReplyDeleteThis blog is basically a bunch of people with sour grapes about FBC, Jax and all other churches and pastors. Its time to grow up and quit whining. If you don't like your church--leave and go find one you like (which probably won't happen).
ReplyDeleteThe saddest commentary on here is how you deify Lindsey and crucify Vines and Brunson. But then, some of you are probably old enough to have been there in person when Lindsey was there.
Shame on all of you.
ABP > Book says SBC lacks system of preventing sexual abuse.
ReplyDeleteA book released in advance of the June 23-24 annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention claims the nation's largest Protestant faith group has more than 100,000 clergy, but no effective system of denominational oversight to protect children from sexual abuse.
This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang is a combination memoir and exposé written by Christa Brown, an anti-clergy-sex-abuse activist.
Brown tells her own story of being sexually abused by a youth minister at the Texas Southern Baptist church of her childhood and how years later as an adult she met a bureaucratic response when trying to warn denominational officials there might be a sexual predator in their midst.
Stop Baptist Predators > Harsh words make my point.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the article about my book in the Associated Baptist Press? Did you see the first guy’s comment underneath the review?
Take a deep breath and take a look. Here’s what he says:
“This woman is on nothing more than a vendetta against the SBC because she's still having problems as a result. Her constant desire to get publicity is evidence of her penchant for hateful revenge. Frankly, I suspect her alleged experience really happened, and yet it's still just a story without substantiation. Being Baptist had nothing to do with her experience. It happens is all walks of life and it's unfortunate. The article states that she 'found him on her own.' What more compelling evidence can there be but that this woman still has mental/emotional issues she can’t overcome? Writing a book to keep herself in the victim spotlight maybe. Indeed, the SBC has examined her whining and has done exactly the right thing according to Baptist polity—it has to be left to the local church…. This woman seems to have done little to acquire a spirit of forgiveness. Her story is not unique. Some Baptist pastors do have lapses of judgment in this area. And so do Presbyterians, Lutherans… Catholics and all the others. This woman writing a book to keep attention on herself serve no useful purpose….”
Anon 5:48..One would only have to be 26 years of age to have known Dr. LindsAy from a young person of 6 to about 17. Why do you have something critical to say about old age? Does being over 26 or more, qualify as old age in your opinion? You sound like a very disturbed young person with an attitude, perhaps against authority or "old age". I see very little crucifying of Dr. Vines on this blog. No one deifies Dr. LindsAy either, just respect for a pastor that loved Jesus and the congregation he was entrusted to serve. Obviously you knew little of Dr. LindsAy, as you fail to properly spell his name. I would caution you on speaking ill of the dead as that can be a slippery slope to walk on. As they can not defend themselves. Rather unfair don't you think? Take some advice....You need to grow up as you have a chip on your shoulder that appears to be much larger than you are.
ReplyDeleteTo anonymous of 5:06 PM: Be glad that you were only ignored. It really got bad when the "leaders" chose to "put you in your unimportant and unworthy place". Whether you had valid and helpful suggestions it mattered little. That is, unless you were "someone acceptable", or unless there was a task to be done that no one else knew how, or wanted to do. Be glad also that your suggestions were not taken, used and promoted as someone elses idea, or suggestion. That's an interesting experience to have in a church. If it was a good idea, be sure someone "more influential" could claim it. Sort of like the business world. There are always a few that run churches, and if they don't like you or consider you not one of them, then no matter what good you try to do or what service you offer, they arn't interested. You are correct. Money is the prime motivator for many churches today. You are also correct that we are in the last church age of Laodicea and the Lord will return soon. This is the church age that sickens the Lord, as we run neither hot nor cold. Revelation chp.3 vs. 14-22.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 5:48: "Shame on all of you"
ReplyDeleteI think the shame may be on yours sir/mam. I don't think it is your "place" to tell long time members that have served, given financially to, prayed for and in all ways possible, that they should leave their church, when they see things they don't approve of or understand. This is a very ungrateful attitude to have. Might I add that the "age factor" you disdain is very insulting to a large portion of the readers here and indeed members of FBCJ in general. I don't think people deify Dr. Lindsay, it's a fact that this church had it's most spiritual accomplishments and moments under his leadership. Dr. Lindsay would never approve of being deified, he always pointed to Jesus and gave the honor and glory to Him. Keep in mind you would not have this church unless the "old people", Dr. Lindsay and indeed the Lord, preserved it for you. Sort of like World War Two veterans saved the country for the rest of us to enjoy in freedom. So, after you think about telling the "old people" to leave make sure you can do a better job on your own.
Anonymous 5:48 PM,
ReplyDeleteDear young one, I hope no one in your family ever tells you that if you don't like what your brothers and sisters are doing that you are just whining and you can just leave and not be part of the family anymore.
A church is a family, or it is supposed to be. And Jesus said to treat others how we want to be treated -- would you want your spiritual famly to say to you "just leave"?
Shame on YOU!
Here are the patterns identified in cults. I have worked with cult victims and those in the occult. Make your own assessmet:
ReplyDeleteThis list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
Regarding Cult Characteristics......
ReplyDeleteWe definitely have cause for concern. Especially since the characteristics causing concern were brought in or emphasized by the "new regime".
Anon 6/10 10:01p......
ReplyDeleteThank you for pointing out that I should be grateful my ideas were simply ignored rather than it being worse by being stolen, or being persecuted for presenting them. I never considered that before now. It has been much worse for many others, and perhaps you, hasn't it. I simply wanted to serve the Lord through the Church. I will continue to serve the Lord and I will continue to search for a Church that truly serves the Lord.
Thanks again for your words.
"Pay up and shut up. I fear that it is becoming almost impossible to find a church that is truly serving the Lord. They are all just businesses. Perhaps Harold Camping from Family Radio is right. The Church Age has ended."
ReplyDeleteJune 10, 2009 5:06 PM
Sadly my brother/sister finding a faithful Church is becoming more difficult. But Harold Camping is wrong and borderline heretic.The Church age will not end until Jesus Raptures it!!! Pray and ask Our God who is faithful and He will lead you to a faithful Church;But it may not be Baptist!
"The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
ReplyDelete Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
The group is preoccupied with making money."
Sounds a lot like what is happening at FBCJ and many of our Churches;Just on a less intensive and more subtle manner! Challenge or disagree with the leader(s),and repercussions follow(WD.)!!!
Better yet, do not ...no never...let the members indicate they know something scripturally. Some preachers think they are the only ones who can possibly know anything about the Bible. That's one way they stay in control. They make you think you "need" them to help you out with understanding. Or to be the authority between you and the Lord. If you don't speak/read the Greek or Hebrew you know nothing in their eyes. This is a real problem and takes away the Priesthood of the believer, in my opinion. The minute I hear a preacher say: "In the Greek it says": I know I am about to hear from another "smart one". Spare me your inflated view of yourself and just PREACH THE WORD. Intellectual knowledge in the ministry, is just like any other intellectual knowledge. This is where many preachers lose their gift and their calling. They become so wraped up in what they think they know intellectually, they insult, all who have not "gone to the seminary". The seminary probably ruins more called preachers than anything. I once asked Dr. Lindsay what seminary he would recommend: He said "Unfortunately I couldn't recommend one". Very telling I would say. Some preachers hate being challanged, especially in areas they think they know all and you know nothing. Members who have Bible knowledge apart from the Pedastel Preacher will be avoided and pushed out...only because they see a wolf in sheeps clothing. Bible knowledge is POWER and the cult leaders and just plain arrogant preachers can't stand it as they are not into truth but lies, power, and money. Ask this question: How did a preacher, or anyone lead another to the Lord WITHOUT the seminary education, or the Greek and Hebrew? How do we witness to people today without it? I would venture to say that more people are led to the Lord by one on one testimony and witnessing than are led to the Lord by the "knowledgeable Greek and Hebrew scholars". I listened for years to a Godly preacher,(he never mentioned the seminary, the Greek or Hebrew) preach Jesus and watched the church grow as many came to Jesus. And I now watch the Greek/Hebrew guys destroy churches right and left. Read your own Bible!!!!! Ask the Lord to reveal His word to you as He sees fit. Pray for understanding before you read it, and above all Thank Him for your understanding and His blessing. And another thing, BELIEVE exactly what the Bible says, it is NOT open for interpretation!!! Save your comments about interpretation please. The Bible means what it says and says what God means. Thanks. Not all preachers are like this, there are some real one still preaching the real Bible.
ReplyDeleteNaves
ReplyDeleteGifts from God
Spiritual:
Christ, the Savior
Isa_42:6; Isa_55:4; Joh_3:16; Joh_4:10; Joh_6:32-33
The Holy Spirit, the Comforter
See Holy Spirit
Grace
Jam_4:6
Wisdom
Pro_2:6; Jam_1:5
Repentance
Act_11:18
Faith
Eph_2:8; Phi_1:29
Temporal:
Food and raiment
Mat_6:25; Mat_6:33
Rain and fruitful seasons
Gen_8:22; Gen_27:28; Lev_26:4-5; Isa_30:23
Wisdom
2Ch_1:12
Peace
Lev_26:6; 1Ch_22:9
To be used and enjoyed
Ecc_3:13; Ecc_5:19-20; 1Ti_4:4-5
Should cause us to remember God
Deu_8:18
All creatures partake of
Psa_136:25; Psa_145:15-16
Prayer for
Zec_10:1; Mat_6:11
Unclassified scriptures relating to both temporal and spiritual
Psa_4:7; Psa_21:2; Psa_34:10; Psa_68:18; Psa_68:35; Psa_29:11; Psa_84:11; Ecc_2:26; Isa_42:5; Eze_11:19; Dan_2:21-23; Mat_11:28; Matt 25:14-30; Joh_6:27; Joh_16:23-24; Joh_17:22; Rom_5:16-18; Rom_6:23; Rom_8:32; Rom_11:29; Rom_12:6-8; 1Co_1:5-7; 1Co_7:7; 1Co_12:4-11; 1Co_13:2; Eph_4:7-8; 1Ti_6:17; Jam_1:17; 1Pe_4:10; 2Pe_1:3
"If you don't speak/read the Greek or Hebrew you know nothing in their eyes. This is a real problem and takes away the Priesthood of the believer, in my opinion. The minute I hear a preacher say: "In the Greek it says": I know I am about to hear from another "smart one". Spare me your inflated view of yourself and just PREACH THE WORD.
ReplyDelete"June 11, 2009 8:48 AM"
The Hebrew and the Greek my friend is not the problem.The Bible was recorded in those languages and they do help in better understanding Sctipture.I myself have never been to seminary;but I ask God for knowledge and with the help of the Holy Spirit and a hunger to know,also buying some good study tools,anyone who truly desires to know; "CAN"! The Problem is that self-absorbed men who enter ministry for their own benefit.The Greek and the Hebrew is not the problem: "Men Are"!!!
"The seminary probably ruins more called preachers than anything"
ReplyDeletePaul Washer alludes to this in some of his sermons. He says he did not learn the scriptures until after seminary. He did learn principles of hermenuetics and speaking skills, church admin, etc.
However, I agree that Greek and Hebrew are not the problem. One of the biggest problems is that the average Joe can now learn Greek and Hebrew and has access to free libraries on line for translating, lexicon and lexographers. We have access to Better Bible blogs where translators grapple with texts all the time.
This has become a problem for preachers. Those in their congregation who are hungry for the Word are asking too many questions and challenging traditional assumptions that benefit a few in charge.
The last post speaks to this. Anyone who reads scripture in context knows he was using scripture to his own benefit.
Another good example of this is tithing. More and more folks are realizing they have bought into something that does not exist in the NC. Offerings yes. Tithing, no. But it is something no one questioned until recent history.
One reason why a preacher will say 'In the Greek.." is because a translator chose the word in English when it has a vast array of meanings. Or because the meaning is not that at all. It was translated very badly. A good example of this is "authenteo" in 1 Tim 2 which is very badly translated and affects over half of all believers!
There are even 'marks' or jots and tittles in Hebrew that can change a meaning but otherwise the word looks exactly the same as another word meaning something totally different. If the 'jot' was not clear on the manuscript, the translator uses what makes sense to him.
A good example of this is Isaiah 3:12 which cannot be a true translation because it would contradict king Josiah and Deborah. (The translation is actually gleaners and exactors which fits the context exactly)
The human translator is not the Holy Spirit.
Many times, if we are reading with the Holy Spirit teaching, He will urge us to dig deeper on a meaning. Incredibly, we live in a time when can do this for free without the aid of a human being deciding for us. We are lazy fools if we do not take advantage of what the Lord has provided us in studying scripture.
Too many preachers are intimidated by the maturing of the Body in wisdom and knowledge of God. It harms their position of influence.
The Body was never meant to be a huge organization that served a few profitably. Where you are to be a spectator. We should all be growing and maturing to teach others or maturing in other gifts to edify the Body.
The Body is meant to be a living breathing organism where we mature and go on to start other Bodies of Christ.
Matt
Thanks Matt for the A.W.Tozer link!!!
ReplyDeleteThanks Matt for the A.W.Tozer link!!!
ReplyDeleteJune 11, 2009 3:59 PM
God Bless you, Bro Rod. I know it sure helped me through some dry periods.
I did not say the Greek and Hebrew was the problem. I said the attitude on many preachers that "throw around" their knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew, that use their knowledge of it and yours and my lack of knowledge as a way of considering themselves more intellectual, smarter, even more spiritual. They sometimes use it as THE authority and a way of keeping the general listener in awe of their knowledge. I am totally unimpressed and rely on my own study of my Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit to guide me. The Bible is the best commentary on the Bible! I think we can see how useless Greek and Hebrew can be over all. Less people are going to churches it appears. Less are getting saved. And problems within the churches abound. Are we or are we not on a blog. because of problems in a church? Spare me the Greek and Hebrew and any lexicon you can think of.
ReplyDeleteAll this make my head spin. How in the world do you guys keep on babbling - both sides?
ReplyDeleteYour beating a dead horse. Same old thing over and over - just on a different thread,
I can tell you nothing good is going to come out of this - on either side!
2 years from now Brunson will be at another church protected by his mafia buddies and Rich will still be wondering why all this happened to him and seeing how all this was worthless and an embarrassment to all in his family.
Sit down and settle this like Christians should and get on with the most important issue, Focusing on Christ and others in need.
Do you guys really know who Jesus is?
June 11, 2009 9:57 PM,
ReplyDelete"I can tell you nothing good is going to come out of this - on either side!
2 years from now Brunson will be at another church protected by his mafia buddies and Rich will still be wondering why all this happened to him and seeing how all this was worthless and an embarrassment to all in his family."
AND THAT WOULD BE THE "GOOD" IN ALL OF THIS, THAT mac WOULD BE GONE FROM FBCJ.
Mac is an embarrassment.
Thanks Dog! Keep up the Great Work.
Why would anyone want this man Brunson to go to another church and destroy it too?
ReplyDeleteHe needs to be selling popcorn at a Tampa Bay game not out destroying another church
That is what these men do, destroy a church or families then move on with sites on another hoping they follow his cultish teachings.
oops they use the term "Called"
yeah right, why don't you ever hear of ANY of these high priced club member pastors ever go to a small church with NOT many members or huge dollar comp plans if they are truly called?
Here is a good way for FBC Jax to test Brunson's committment. The 'board' should tell him that as of next month his salary is being dropped to 60,000 per year. This include any perks except tax exemption from housing.
ReplyDeleteHe will not be allowed to write any books while pastoring or accept any speaking engagments outside the church unless the fee/royalties comes to the church. And limit his time off to do such things or take such trips.
He should not be allowed to operate a separate 501c3 ministry while pastor, either.
Everything I have mentioned is reasonable.
Do it FBC Jax,and see how long he lasts.
NO WAY!
ReplyDeleteEVER!
FBCJ would not step up and Mac certainly would not agree.
But what a great concept!!
Former FBC Insider: The average worker in Jax makes between $30,000 and $45,000 annually. No self respecting preacher of a mega church would ever work for less than $250,000 to $400,000. They have a short time to make all the gusto they can and $60,000 is much too cheap to keep them in the mega facilites.
ReplyDelete