Readers - you can now go to the SBC website and view Mac Brunson's sermon delivered June 21st at the 2009 Southern Baptist Convention, Pastor's Conference. There was a delay in the SBC posting the Pastor's Conference material on 316, presumably to allow them time to earn revenue through media sales, which is understandable since the Pastor's Conference is not funded by the SBC as the regular convention is.I highly recommend this sermon for viewing by those who have followed this blog for some time.
If you don't want to watch it, here are some excerpts:
"...why aren't our churches growing? Because it may be they don't like us [pastors]. What they see, they don't like, and if they don't like what they see, they won't listen to us and our witness is essentially nullified."
He doesn't say why they don't like the pastors. Do these pastors know the media storm Mac and FBC Jax have created by the way they responded to the Watchdog blog? So many of the non-Christians and Christians are very offended by the actions of FBC Jax.
"..what's the mind of Christ on all of this...why are we not able to reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ...they don't like us. And I want to tell you something [very expressively, and pointing finger], if you walk out in this the hallway and listen to the conversation, you'll discover we don't like each other very much either."
Apparently, according to Mac, pastors are arguing and expressing dislike for one another out in the hallways of the convention. I hadn't heard that.
"So he [Peter] comes and he says 'From the government to your workplace to your marriage' he says 'This is the way you are to live out your life in front of these Gentiles, in front of the world. So that what they see, they like, and when they like it, they will listen to what you've got to say.' "
Then Mac gives five characteristics, attitudes that should characterize pastors, taken from 1 Peter 3:8..
1. Harmonization
"...[yelling] Why can't you find something to agree on? Why can't you just get around Jesus Christ? My stars, I couldn't believe all that I've read in the weeks prior to this, can we not agree on the Great Commission. [arms flailing]. Isn't that something we ought to be able to agree on? [scant applause]. Lord help us, there ought to be a harmonious spirit, a like-mindedness, when it comes to Jesus Christ and the Word of God and the gospel, and missions? Hold forth the word of life, can you agree on that? That's in da book by the way, if you didn't know it."
There is no disagreement on the Great Commission leading up to the convention, but on the document called "Great Commission Resurgence". It is interesting that a call for "harmonization" is made with yelling, arms flailing and head bobbing.
2. Identification
Speaking of sympathy between brothers:
"It meant a robust sympathy. I identify with you. There is this identification in what you are going through. I don't just pass you by and say, "Aw, too bad, that's sad." It means I stop and I get involved with you in whatever it is you're going through, in your hurt, in your joy, in your pain, in your happiness - whatever it is - I come with this identification, you are all after all a brother in Jesus Christ."
Peter is speaking to Christian brothers in general. Does the above apply to Mac in how he deals with a blogger? Or does it just apply to the pastors he is preaching to and not to Mac?
3. Brotherly Intention
"...this concept of what I will do for you. I will do the things a brother does for you...I'm your brother. I'm going to get in there and get in there and do what needs to be done when there is a hurt. We're brothers in Jesus Christ. "
4. Compassion
"...where you feel...and what he is saying is this, he's saying for us, he says we're to feel, we're to be this for one another. To feel that hurt, and to feel that pain with one another."
5. Submission
"He says to be humble in spirit, it is this submissiveness; this is what I do, I come and I submit myself out of deference to my brother and my sister in Christ. This is how I live in the world with my brothers and sisters. I come and it doesn't have to be my way all the time. I don't have to always have the last word, I don't have to always be right, I don't have to always be first, I don't have to always preach at the conference, I am to submit myself to my brothers in Jesus Christ. That's such a foreign concept to us. "
Then he gave the story of a successful advertising agency started by two women who wrote a book on their success, called "The Power of Nice."
About that, Mac says:
"They wrote a book in 2006 that tells you exactly how they did it, and its called 'The Power of Nice'. You oughta try it, its one of the fruits of the Spirit. And if the world would see us, preachers, dealing with one another, in a Christ-like way, they might like what they see. And if they like what they see, they might listen to what we say."
Then Mac goes on to discuss the preacher's witness to a watching world.
"When somebody treats you with evil, he says you don't turn around - when they do something to you, that at the very core of it, it is bad - you don't turn around and do something back, that at the very core of it is wicked and evil and bad. Now let me tell you something pastors, you cannot get into this 'emotional tennis' with angry people. You can't get into this emotional tennis match - they say something, they do something, there is a backlash, there is a retaliation, there is payback, and you go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Let me tell you what you gonna do: you're going to destroy your witness."
I wonder how this applies to a pastor wrongly calling a former church member "mentally imbalanced" and a "sociopath". Was that his emotional tennis retaliation? Or is he exempt from his own advice when going against a blogger?
"Let me tell you, when somebody does something to you, and you turn around and do it right back to them, its going to cost you more than that in your witness and your testimony."
I'm assuming this is Mac speaking purely out of experience in his public comments concerning me.
"Not paying back an insult for an insult. Somebody insults you, 'well I gotta get right back, I, I, gotta say something", and you know what, there's this emotional itch, we all have, its called the flesh. We've got this emotional itch that says 'I've got to say something back, I've got to defend myself. NO YOU DON'T. No you don't. Brothers, let me tell you something, you, you don't have to defend yourself. You're not your own. You were bought with a price and you belong to Jesus, let Him handle it. [followed by pregnant pause, then very, very scant slow applause]."
Yes, Mac says don't return insult for insult. Mac tells his pastor friends to just let Jesus "handle it". There is so much in Mac's sermon to his pastor friends that seems, in my opinion, to contradict his very own words and actions as Pastor of FBC Jax.
"...why aren't our churches growing? Because it may be they don't like us [pastors]. What they see, they don't like, and if they don't like what they see, they won't listen to us and our witness is essentially nullified."
He doesn't say why they don't like the pastors. Do these pastors know the media storm Mac and FBC Jax have created by the way they responded to the Watchdog blog? So many of the non-Christians and Christians are very offended by the actions of FBC Jax.
"..what's the mind of Christ on all of this...why are we not able to reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ...they don't like us. And I want to tell you something [very expressively, and pointing finger], if you walk out in this the hallway and listen to the conversation, you'll discover we don't like each other very much either."
Apparently, according to Mac, pastors are arguing and expressing dislike for one another out in the hallways of the convention. I hadn't heard that.
"So he [Peter] comes and he says 'From the government to your workplace to your marriage' he says 'This is the way you are to live out your life in front of these Gentiles, in front of the world. So that what they see, they like, and when they like it, they will listen to what you've got to say.' "
Then Mac gives five characteristics, attitudes that should characterize pastors, taken from 1 Peter 3:8..
1. Harmonization
"...[yelling] Why can't you find something to agree on? Why can't you just get around Jesus Christ? My stars, I couldn't believe all that I've read in the weeks prior to this, can we not agree on the Great Commission. [arms flailing]. Isn't that something we ought to be able to agree on? [scant applause]. Lord help us, there ought to be a harmonious spirit, a like-mindedness, when it comes to Jesus Christ and the Word of God and the gospel, and missions? Hold forth the word of life, can you agree on that? That's in da book by the way, if you didn't know it."
There is no disagreement on the Great Commission leading up to the convention, but on the document called "Great Commission Resurgence". It is interesting that a call for "harmonization" is made with yelling, arms flailing and head bobbing.
2. Identification
Speaking of sympathy between brothers:
"It meant a robust sympathy. I identify with you. There is this identification in what you are going through. I don't just pass you by and say, "Aw, too bad, that's sad." It means I stop and I get involved with you in whatever it is you're going through, in your hurt, in your joy, in your pain, in your happiness - whatever it is - I come with this identification, you are all after all a brother in Jesus Christ."
Peter is speaking to Christian brothers in general. Does the above apply to Mac in how he deals with a blogger? Or does it just apply to the pastors he is preaching to and not to Mac?
3. Brotherly Intention
"...this concept of what I will do for you. I will do the things a brother does for you...I'm your brother. I'm going to get in there and get in there and do what needs to be done when there is a hurt. We're brothers in Jesus Christ. "
4. Compassion
"...where you feel...and what he is saying is this, he's saying for us, he says we're to feel, we're to be this for one another. To feel that hurt, and to feel that pain with one another."
5. Submission
"He says to be humble in spirit, it is this submissiveness; this is what I do, I come and I submit myself out of deference to my brother and my sister in Christ. This is how I live in the world with my brothers and sisters. I come and it doesn't have to be my way all the time. I don't have to always have the last word, I don't have to always be right, I don't have to always be first, I don't have to always preach at the conference, I am to submit myself to my brothers in Jesus Christ. That's such a foreign concept to us. "
Then he gave the story of a successful advertising agency started by two women who wrote a book on their success, called "The Power of Nice."
About that, Mac says:
"They wrote a book in 2006 that tells you exactly how they did it, and its called 'The Power of Nice'. You oughta try it, its one of the fruits of the Spirit. And if the world would see us, preachers, dealing with one another, in a Christ-like way, they might like what they see. And if they like what they see, they might listen to what we say."
Then Mac goes on to discuss the preacher's witness to a watching world.
"When somebody treats you with evil, he says you don't turn around - when they do something to you, that at the very core of it, it is bad - you don't turn around and do something back, that at the very core of it is wicked and evil and bad. Now let me tell you something pastors, you cannot get into this 'emotional tennis' with angry people. You can't get into this emotional tennis match - they say something, they do something, there is a backlash, there is a retaliation, there is payback, and you go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Let me tell you what you gonna do: you're going to destroy your witness."
I wonder how this applies to a pastor wrongly calling a former church member "mentally imbalanced" and a "sociopath". Was that his emotional tennis retaliation? Or is he exempt from his own advice when going against a blogger?
"Let me tell you, when somebody does something to you, and you turn around and do it right back to them, its going to cost you more than that in your witness and your testimony."
I'm assuming this is Mac speaking purely out of experience in his public comments concerning me.
"Not paying back an insult for an insult. Somebody insults you, 'well I gotta get right back, I, I, gotta say something", and you know what, there's this emotional itch, we all have, its called the flesh. We've got this emotional itch that says 'I've got to say something back, I've got to defend myself. NO YOU DON'T. No you don't. Brothers, let me tell you something, you, you don't have to defend yourself. You're not your own. You were bought with a price and you belong to Jesus, let Him handle it. [followed by pregnant pause, then very, very scant slow applause]."
Yes, Mac says don't return insult for insult. Mac tells his pastor friends to just let Jesus "handle it". There is so much in Mac's sermon to his pastor friends that seems, in my opinion, to contradict his very own words and actions as Pastor of FBC Jax.
So which is it: hypocrisy, or Mac telling his pastor friends in so many words, "Don't do what we did."
Whatever it is, for sure the SBC pastors very much liked what they heard in Mac's sermon, as they voted to give Mac the honor of preaching the convention sermon at next year's SBC Convention in Orlando.
Hey, he used to pastor FBC Dallas and now pastors FBC Jax, so he MUST be important and a Godly example and leader for the rest of the convention right? And look at all that money he has, and those cuff links. I wish I could be him! Where do I read his books on HOW he achieved so much, started those churches and grew them, and labored for decades to build those churches to where they are today. I want to follow his example.(rolling of the eyes.)
ReplyDeleteYou really are possessed with Mac Brunson aren't you? I just read your post on Baptist Life where you are whining because noone from FBC Jax has called you since you were outed.
ReplyDeleteTom, get ahold of your life. You're not a member there any longer and you can be sure there will be no phone calls forthcoming. Your little game of making yourself the victim in all of this is falling on deaf ears.
Focus on your new pastor. I'm sure he will love your attention.
OH MY GOSH, Like he needs to talk! Since I've left the SBC (former member of his former church), I can laugh about this stuff. aaah godd riddance sbc.
ReplyDeleteI can from experience tell you that once a pastor has "it in for you", there is absolutely nothing that can done to undo it. Its in stone. Yes, pastors find they are not liked because of their own actions. They say one thing and do another which tips off those that are watching and observing that they are "hypocrits" pure and simple. Some that observe become puppets of the preacher. Others simply stick their head in the sand not wanting to "get involved" while they callously watch their fellow church member go down in flames so to speak. Some just give "all authority" over to the preacher, justifying the preachers callous treatment, of the one singled out for "destruction". Some think that because he has the position he has the wisdom, and the blessing of God. Not always so. As we have seen from history, Pharohs have had the position, Presidents have had the position, Judges have had the position and man has had the positon. Countries and people fail because positions and people fail.
ReplyDeleteOne other thing, mega church pastors are envious of others. They want to be the greatest orator, the biggest at the events, the highest paid, the one who has the most influence. Unfortuanately, they forget that the greatest is to be servant of all. Who washed whose feet? Jesus washed the disciples not the reverse.
When pastors get their feet in the tar bucket they soon realize they have made a terrible blunder. They just hope no one else notices the cruel treatment they have metted out to others. So they "sweep" it under the rug by "getting rid" of the party they "did in". Send out the "deputies" to take away the offending parties standing. These blunders sometimes are never undone. Either they are "too big" or "too small" to offer an apolgy. In any case, they lose thier credibility and have very little to offer to those who are carefully scrutinizing their sermons, actions, books, and writings in various places. Just being honest and dealing with all folks as brothers and sisters in the Lord is a very difficult matter for most so called Christians today. They feel like they are having to give up part of their identity to do so and oftentimes they just can't be honest enough to provide the reason that they are who they claim to be. They have so compromised themselves that they are one way to one group and another way to another person or group and have to keep their distance between the two. Such a shame, especially for pastors to find themselves in such a POSITION.
Where is the compassion in this man's voice (and heart for that matter)? I just always thought of a man of God to be a compassionate person and to only show anger when it is righteous and justified. oh well. such is the world these days. I just don't see why he can't express himself with just an ounce of compassion. Wouldn't it behoove him (mac) to hold his tongue just once?
ReplyDeleteSo, what was your thought of the sermon content, without Mac in the picture? Was it biblical? Was it doctrinally sound? Was it heresy?
ReplyDeleteNo one will doubt you and your love / hate relationship wit Mac but let's see if we can find something good.
What man intended for evil, God intended for good. What "good", if any, is there in the message preached?
Jon, your the "man of God", so I'll let you answer your own question...on your own blog.
ReplyDelete:)
Anon 1:40 - not "whining"...just pointing out the folly in someone holding out hope that there will be a sit down around a table to resolve this matter. My point was the call to reconciliation would have come by now, if it were ever going to come.
ReplyDeleteNot "making" myself to be a victim. And your ears might be deaf, but I'm not going to you for justice, so I don't really care what you think.
Focus on my new pastor? Good one. That assumes my previous pastor was actually my "pastor".
:)
That's fine Tom. I actually thought comparing a sermon preached to the word of God was much healthier than comparing it to the person who preached it.
ReplyDeleteI am surprised you posted my comment since you deem it not worthy to be answered on your blog.
Your blog, your life, your rules.
Correction Tom.
ReplyDeleteI am not "the" man of God. Just a simpleton trying to make a difference for His kingdom as I journey through this world.
Jon L. Estes
ReplyDeleteYour statement, "I am not "the" man of God. Just a simpleton trying to make a difference for His kingdom as I journey through this world."
Those that know about you would surely agree, especially the simpleton description. And the continued use of your mug shot is almost frightening.
Anonymous
Excuse Me, there's no whining because none at FBC has called - we don't have too as we WRITE to Mr. Rich on this blog for the world to read - this is not falling on deaf ears and it's not all about (Mr. Brunson) - it's the administration body and "select members" (which obvious you are a part of) - and thank you, but we do have a life.
ReplyDeleteYou, whomever you are needs to know THIS IS NOT A GAME!
By the way, you must know the editor of this blog as you call him 'Tom', and I call him Mr. Rich.
===================================
"Anonymous said...
You really are possessed with Mac Brunson aren't you? I just read your post on Baptist Life where you are whining because noone from FBC Jax has called you since you were outed.
Tom, get ahold of your life. You're not a member there any longer and you can be sure there will be no phone calls forthcoming. Your little game of making yourself the victim in all of this is falling on deaf ears"
It is incredulous for you to actually say that you are someone holding out hope that there will be a sitdown around a table to resolve this matter.
ReplyDeleteIf you really mean that, then hike your self right down into Mac Brunson's office and get it done.
Waiting on someone else to take the spiritual initiative is just a cop out.
But of course if you did that, then you couldn't come on here and other blogs and make yourself out to be a martyr for something that you yourself caused.
Anon - my point was: I was responding to a person who WAS holding out hope that there would be a sit down and this could all be worked out. It won't be. That was tried. A pastor who knew what was coming in the media last March reached out to Brunson in an attempt to schedule a meeting with me to reach some sort of reconciliation. No response was received from Brunson.
ReplyDeleteSo we did try. We gave it a shot, and it didn't work out.
So here we are.
And I'm not out to make myself a martyr. Just standing for what I believe is right and just.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteYou owe nothing to anyone!
At least you have a backbone and are not one of the spineless worms or Head buried in the Sand member at FBC JAX.
Continue to expose Mac until his knees buckle.
Because with GODS help, it is on the way.
He promises!
They get to define sin. Therefore they define it for themselves. And they usually define their sin as not dealing with dissenters harsh enough.
ReplyDelete"I actually thought comparing a sermon preached to the word of God was much healthier than comparing it to the person who preached it."
This is a big theme with pastors now to cover for one another. Nevermind the depravity...how was the content. Then they whip out examples of sinners in scriptuer to prove it is ok for them to be evil, arrogant, greedy, etc.
But here is their problem. Scripture mentions PASTOR ONCE. It is a spiritual gift of shepherding listed along with several other gifts.
It really has little to do with making sermons for masses. So, if one is going to shepherd another, it would help if they are NOT willfully sinning knowing the truth. (Hebrews 10 and 1 John)
Who wants an evil, arrogant and greedy shepherd?
So Jon wants us to always separate the person from the message. But when they consistently fail to practice what they preach it would only make sense to stop listening to them. And supporting them financially.
But the SBC promoting Mac means Jon is safe. He likes that.
Mr. Rich:
ReplyDeleteRemember this verse in the Bible: A brother is born for adversity. The brother in this contextual statement infers a blood brother. But, it can also refer to a spiritual brother as well. Reconciliation is a tough job for some brothers regrettably.
This complaint may be trivial to some but.... I notice Mac says "da book" a lot in refering to the Bible. I find this insulting. I assume he is referring to the Holy Bible, the Holy Word of God. I believe people should be more respectful of the Word. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteIt would be hypocrisy if he stated that pastors could not be called into question rather sense he pled for mercy among pastors. Mac instead has a completely huge blindspot in your situation. Yes, it is a form of hypocrisy but persistant reasoning with him about the issues will work. If he continues to lift his position and authority up as higher importance than the doctrinally based facts you presented then he is no different then pope Leo was to Martin Luther.
ReplyDeleteAnd if that is the case then you should change the name of the blog from "Protestant ministers in Italian Suits"
ReplyDeleteTypical Mac sermon - everything sounds good and sounds right except that it applies to everyone else but him.
ReplyDeleteRemember this verse in the Bible: A brother is born for adversity. The brother in this contextual statement infers a blood brother. But, it can also refer to a spiritual brother as well. Reconciliation is a tough job for some brothers regrettably.
ReplyDeleteJuly 14, 2009 6:03 PM
Both parties must repent for reconcilation to happen. Reconcilation is not the same as forgiveness. ONe would expect the person making his living from preaching the Word to take the first step in repentance. But Mac is blinded by his success and his hard heart makes it impossible for him to see his sin in this. He has been revengeful and called it church discipline.
Run.
If you are referring to waiting on Wade Burleson to fix things you are so sadly deluded. Wade has no horse in this race and what went on in your church (at that time) is none of his business. Mac isn't going to respond to some meddling pastor.
ReplyDeleteIt was (and is) your responsibility to go into Mac and talk to him if you want genuine reconciliation. Since you are such a martyred saint, why don't you take the high road and be the one to actually walk into his office and meet with him face to face.
That's how real men do it.
Nice try Anon.
ReplyDelete"Waiting on Wade to fix things" you say? You are the one deluded, my friend.
But listen to Mac's sermon.
He is saying that the pastors are accountable to each other. That they should support each other, they are brothers, they are to be there for each other, etc. If you and Mac viewed another pastor as "meddling" who is not in Mac's church who attempted to facilitate reconciliation when he knew of the coming media fire storm, then what the heck was Mac's sermon at the SBC about? Does ANYTHING he preaches apply to him? Would not he owe a reply to Wade? Wade was unique amongst SBC pastors because he knew of the coming media storm, when other pastors did not, so I would commend Wade for attempting to set up a reconciliation meeting. But no, he is "meddling" to you.
No wonder the lost world doesn't like what they see, as Mac said.
And if I were to walk into Mac's office, or if my wife were, I would fully expect the sheriff's office to be called to have me arrested since we have a standing trespass warning filed by the church.
If it takes a real man to go to someone to reconcile, then by definition Mac is not a real man.
Or are you like Mac...your standards apply only to those you want to apply them, not to pastors.
And make no mistake, the time for "reconciliation meetings" is now over, so no, I do not want a reconciliation meeting with Brunson at this point.
I'm beginning to think Mac and JW are going to be on the same pew in heaven. Along with Jon L. and all the females he enjoys arguing with on Wade's blog.
ReplyDelete"They wrote a book in 2006 that tells you exactly how they did it, and its called 'The Power of Nice'. You oughta try it, its one of the fruits of the Spirit.
ReplyDeleteReally? Love, joy, peace, and ... nice?
Amazon > The Power of Nice [2001].
ReplyDeleteFrom the cover of the above book ... How to Negotiate. So everyone wins -- Especially you!.
I think the book Mac was referring to is this:
Amazon > The Power of Nice: How to Conquer the Business World With Kindness [2006].
Maurilio would be very happy with this book.
They wrote a book in 2006 that tells you exactly how they did it, and its called "The Power of Nice." You oughta try it, its one of the fruits of the Spirit.
ReplyDeleteReally? Love, joy, peace, and ... nice?
Junk, it's in "Da Book"!
It must take a lot of time to figure out ways to paint yourself as such a maligned martyr. Had you gone into see Mac in person in the very beginning this blog wouldn't exist--and you wouldn't be getting all this attention. I just wonder how your wife and children feel about all of this. I imagine they are getting real tired of the same song over and over again.
ReplyDeleteRemember that the responsibility in the beginning was yours since you don't have the courage or manliness to print your real name on that which you wrote.
Its also interesting to see that you now seem to think that Baptist Life is your second blog. Now that you have actually posted your real name, you write incessantly about how innocent and abused you are and have been.
Its time to admit being the troublemaker that you are.
Mac reading a business book so he can run his "church" business? That sounds about right. Mac reading worldy material and using it in a sermon? "business" as usual.
ReplyDeleteYea anon 9:16, a real man calls in his henchmen to do his dirty work. A real man refuses all contact with one of his congregants but lets "the law" handle it, even when no law has been broken. Yea anon, it's good to be da king, just not a real man. (you are obviously mac family or a mac-indoctrinated cult member.)
ReplyDeleteJon L. Estes said...
ReplyDeleteSo, what was your thought of the sermon content, without Mac in the picture? Was it biblical? Was it doctrinally sound? Was it heresy?
No one will doubt you and your love / hate relationship wit Mac but let's see if we can find something good.
What man intended for evil, God intended for good. What "good", if any, is there in the message preached?
July 14, 2009 3:19 PM
"So, what was your thought of the sermon content, without Mac in the picture?"
So, you want us to "pretend" that an arrogant, pompous donkey was not delivering this speech?
Ok, I guess on that one you're probably right, in Numbers 22:23-30God has used a donkey to get his point across before. I agree that he is doing it again here. Thanks for pointing that out.
"Was it biblical?"
The words were biblical. His actions are not. He has lost all credibility, so he has lost his audience, the ears to which he speaks cannot hear because his actions are yelling so loudly.
“And if they like what they see, they might listen to what we say." By Mac Brunson
"Was it doctrinally sound?"
He talks the talk and fails to walk it. His last statement here would have made this speech completely credible if he had added, “I can attest to that. It has happened to me. I’m playing tennis with Tom Rich right now and things aren’t looking good for me. It is not a love match.” Instead, he says,
"You can't get into this emotional tennis match - they say something, they do something, there is a backlash, there is a retaliation, there is payback, and you go back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Let me tell you what you gonna do: you're going to destroy your witness." By Mac Brunson
"Was it heresy?"
He lied.
“This is how I live in the world with my brothers and sisters. I come and it doesn't have to be my way all the time.” by Mac Brunson
He didn't like an opposing view so he delivered trespass warnings to a member of the church.
"No one will doubt you and your love / hate relationship wit Mac but let's see if we can find something good."
The good would have been if someone else tried preaching this sermon. Instead, because of who it was, it was ineffective at best. Unless we go back to your first point and consider the miracle of the talking donkey.
"What man intended for evil, God intended for good. What "good", if any, is there in the message preached."
The good would be if Mac Brunson would humble himself, admit to his boys that he has not gone this route, the way God’s Word tells us to go. The good would be if Mac Brunson had turned this speech into a personal testimony, using truth and transparency before the boys.
Mac Brunson missed a golden opportunity to right his wrong, to teach a real lesson to the boys, to prove that he has a heart for doing right.
Instead, we just get another talking donkey.
Tom Rich is "obsessive compulsive, not stable at all"… by Mac Brunson
"What you're dealing with here is sociopath". By Mac Brunson
Anon 7:58
ReplyDeleteOpen your blind eyes.
The hatred and contempt you have for me is eating you up from the inside.
Your inability to fairly judge what has happened and is happening gives me great concern for you, and for your wife and kids if you have a family.
Get on with your life. Quit visiting this blog, and quit reading Baptist Life. Harboring this resentment you have for me and my family will do you no good.
It must take a lot of your time trying to figure out what you can say about me here on this blog, to paint me as a person painting himself as a martyr.
Instead of trying to tear me down, why not try to build up your pastor, defend him and his words and his actions. That would be a more productive use of your time.
And quit worrying so much about my wife and kids.
And about my manliness? Oh brother, it really comes down to who is a "man" doesn't it.
I feel for your anon, get on with your life and stop reading this blog.
" I just wonder how your wife and children feel about all of this. I imagine they are getting real tired of the same song over and over again."
ReplyDeleteThe blog has national attention because of statements like this one and will continue to grow with comments like the above.
Speaking as a wife, who was given paperwork to never step on the grounds of FBC, I would be 100 percent behind my husband, and for sure my children would support and be proud of their father.
FBC needs to show some respect and remove the restrictions legally placed on Mrs. Rich to ever come on "our" FBC church grounds.
Until that first step is taken there is a "full house of members" who are there at FBC who support and respect the Rich family!
It was (and is) your responsibility to go into Mac and talk to him if you want genuine reconciliation. Since you are such a martyred saint, why don't you take the high road and be the one to actually walk into his office and meet with him face to face.
ReplyDeleteThat's how real men do it.
July 14, 2009 9:36 PM
IF he walked into Mac's office...first of all there is a trespass order...that kind of sorta presents a bit of a problem....
So, in your world, REAL men get trespass orders?
By his own admission then, Mac has destroyed his witness.
ReplyDeleteWell said, Anon.
ReplyDeleteIts sad, but people like that Anon must convince themselves that my kids and wife are suffering at the hands of their "evil" father. Guys like this Anon probably think we are all just wishing we could return to the mighty FBC Jax and worship so we can be whole again. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Nope, don't want to return to FBC Jax. We have plenty of friends still there that we love and will always love, but we've moved on.
However, I will continue to stand for what I think is right in what happened to us; some people don't like that, and wish I would just "drop it" and "let Jesus handle it". I believe Jesus is handling it, as usually when things need to be done he works through men. So let's see how this will all work out. We have moved on, but at the same time I will stand for what I believe is right.
My family is doing fine. My kids love me and support me, and this whole experience has opened all our eyes to what is going on in the Southern Baptist Convention. My kids now know, real life, what a true pastor is and is not. They have seen the hurt caused to their mom by church leadership, accusing her of misconduct and banning her from her church for doing nothing other than being a faithful wife to her husband. They are a tad bit more discerning in what they hear coming forth from the pulpit, and they've learned first hand that a preacher is not measured just by his words in the pulpit, but by his words and actions outside the pulpit. They are not bitter, but wiser.
My family is doing fine. My kids love me and support me, and this whole experience has opened all our eyes to what is going on in the Southern Baptist Convention. My kids now know, real life, what a true pastor is and is not. They have seen the hurt caused to their mom by church leadership, accusing her of misconduct and banning her from her church for doing nothing other than being a faithful wife to her husband. They are a tad bit more discerning in what they hear coming forth from the pulpit, and they've learned first hand that a preacher is not measured just by his words in the pulpit, but by his words and actions outside the pulpit. They are not bitter, but wiser.
ReplyDeleteJuly 15, 2009 9:24 AM
Exactly. I have friends in mega's whose kids grew up in them went away to college and came back only to have more discernment than their parents! They saw stuff their parents could not see and they refused to stay.
Your children are learning about wolves and false teachers and that is a very good thing. WE are to be Bereans and test everything and our children should not be raised to follow ONE man at church. That is so dangerous for their souls.
Your children are learning that Matt 7 is real. And there are many 'professing' Christians,
My family is doing fine. My kids love me and support me, and this whole experience has opened all our eyes to what is going on in the Southern Baptist Convention. My kids now know, real life, what a true pastor is and is not. They have seen the hurt caused to their mom by church leadership, accusing her of misconduct and banning her from her church for doing nothing other than being a faithful wife to her husband. They are a tad bit more discerning in what they hear coming forth from the pulpit, and they've learned first hand that a preacher is not measured just by his words in the pulpit, but by his words and actions outside the pulpit. They are not bitter, but wiser.
ReplyDeleteJuly 15, 2009 9:24 AM
Exactly. I have friends in mega's whose kids grew up in them went away to college and came back only to have more discernment than their parents! They saw stuff their parents could not see and they refused to stay.
Your children are learning about wolves and false teachers and that is a very good thing. WE are to be Bereans and test everything and our children should not be raised to follow ONE man at church. That is so dangerous for their souls.
Your children are learning that Matt 7 is real. And there are many 'professing' Christians,
Dr.Dog there was nothing about that sermon that was memorable!!!
ReplyDeleteIt was classic Mac with sleight of hand exposition to impress his fellow clergy!!!
No mention of his exploits here in Jax nor contrition over the fiasco with you...
File thirteen material!!!!!!
"Your children are learning about wolves and false teachers and that is a very good thing. WE are to be Bereans and test everything and our children should not be raised to follow ONE man at church. That is so dangerous for their souls.
ReplyDeleteYour children are learning that Matt 7 is real. And there are many 'professing' Christians."
July 15, 2009 9:35 AM
Anon I agree whole-heartedly with your accessment.
Dr.Dog your children will actually be better off because of what has happened. And they will and have learned the importance of being discerning and to examine every so-called man of God and make sure that they line of with the Truth of God's Word.
They will learn the cost,the courage necessary and the importance of standing up for what is right!!!
Tom, How ever does one go to see someone who has a trespass warning against them? Is your detractor here a bit daft? Or, just uniformed?
ReplyDeleteOne surely wishes your detractors would at least use logic.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteYou always conveniently omit the fact that you were the one who chose to remain anonymous in the beginning. You can't expect Mac to come and humble himself at your feet if he didn't know who you were. Basically, you were just a malcontent who didn't have the courage to go and talk to Mac face to face.
Your wife and children were also there when you were lying about who you were. You even kept up the facade after they served you with papers. What kind of witness is that for your kids? I'm sure you kept most of what you were doing secret from them though.
I always enjoy reading your blog though. You find more ways to make yourself seem sinless while all others are at fault. You should definitely write a book.
Sorry, not conveniently omitting the fact that I was anonymous. That is obvious.
ReplyDeleteBut it also is true that Mac didn't have the courage to speak to me after he found my identity back in October. I was not anonymous to the powers at FBC Jax since mid-October 2008.
Never wanted Mac to fall at my feet. Are you serious?
And even now I don't want Mac at my front door for reconciliation. This entire discussion of meeting and reconcilation was in my response to a person at Baptist Life who held out hope that it still could happen. My response was its too late!
To you anonymous blogging was a "facade". To me it was speaking truth that I wanted to speak, in the way I wanted to speak it. You consider it being a "malcontent" and a lack of courage to speak anonymously; I call it wise.
What kind of witness is it to my kids? It is a person who stood up for what they believed to be right, in the way they thought right, speaking truth to those in power that I believe did and have done great harm to FBC Jax. And we watched the full force of FBC Jax and Brunson and A.C. Soud move into action. Lots of lessons there to be learned, what happens when someone dares to challenge powerful Christian people. Many times they act in ways contrary to what they profess as Christians from their lofty pulpit perch.
Yep, my wife and children were with me at FBC Jax when I was an member blogging anonymously. I'm a Christian, and was a member at FBC Jax. We were members there.
I would worry more about what your pastor's actions speak to the city of Jacksonville and to the SBC than what my actions say to my kids. I really do appreciate the expressions of concern for the welfare of my wife and kids. It is heart-warming, really, coming from you, to know how much you care. :)
You've got it right Tom. Been there, done that. How many times this same stuff has happened quietly, behind the scenes, but just as hurtful. If they can't "straighten you out", you will be out. Survived, much smarter now. Minus the official No Trespass Notice. But the character assassination, the shunning, the more or less forced departure because of the "knowing" looks, the back stabbing whispering. People don't need this from a church or any of this leadership. They need to see Jesus in their fellowship, and in their leadership. Sadly most churchs are no longer in the soul winning business. They are just "in business". And if you challenge them in any way, you will find out the depth of dedication to themselves and the "business". Someone very influential in the arena once told me, "never challenge the preacher,(any preacher was the subject) whether he is right or wrong, it won't make any difference". As to "talking" to a preacher, forget it. They talk, you listen, they have NO intention of admiting they are ever wrong about anything. How else can they rule? It is my humble opinion that many preachers need to be SAVED.
ReplyDelete"To you anonymous blogging was a "facade". To me it was speaking truth that I wanted to speak, in the way I wanted to speak it. You consider it being a "malcontent" and a lack of courage to speak anonymously; I call it wise. "
ReplyDeleteI have tried to stay out of these sorts of discussions that are accussatory about Tom's anonymous blogging but fear that I cannot.
There seems to be targeted effort in many Christian venues that writing anonymously about problems with pastors or churches is a sin.
I keep hearing charges of being unmanly or cowardly if one blogs anonymously. That seems a bit desperate. But it is excellent tactics if you go for such things.
On the other hand, I have personal, up close experience with those who did try and confront wrong behaviors, shallow teaching and other problems with church leadership. I saw that in every instance, it was a huge mistake and did not work. As a matter of fact, doing so provided cover for the abuses and the person who confronted was marginalized. So, by doing what they thought was 'biblical' turned out not to be the case. Jesus went out into the public square and accused the Pharisees. He even talked about them behind their backs to crowds. And they tried to kill Him early on for doing so.
Public actions and public teaching MUST be dealt with publicly when it comes to church leaders. That is biblical. And we see several instances of just that in scripture from Paul and John. Matt 18 is for a PERSONAL offense. Not an abuse of a position or false teaching.
For one thing, if you look at a pastors actions such as taking special gifts or land deals, this is something where some thought has been given to the action. Which means, in almost every instance, excuses have already been formulated.
The question becomes, how many know about it? And how many know what scripture really teaches on say...tithing? Many do not have a clue. They learn most of what they know of scripture from pastors like Mac.
As I look back over what I saw and experienced, it would have been a service to not only the professing believers who followed such leaders but to the community to make certain questions, accusations and disagreement known publicly.
There is a reason we do not know the author of Hebrews. It was written leading up to the great persecution of Jewish converts in Jerusalem. There is a reason the Federalist papers were written anonymously at first. To focus on issues and not personalities. This was a time when dirt digging on both sides was epidemic and the issues were being regulated to a back seat.
What seriously committed teacher of the Word would not welcome his behavior or teaching to be analyzed publicly? That is the question we should be asking. Mac has a bully pulpit to refute any lies told about him.
Tom had absolutely NO biblical requirementto see Mac personally about his land deal or any of the rest of it. It was public behavior by a public figure.
The way Mac responded to the anonymous blogging actually seals his guilt over what was written. That fact that thousands do not understand that means nothing.
Real men who belong to God do not issue trespass warnings. Real men of God do not call their former members a sociopath to a reporter.
I am constantly amazed at how biblically ignorant folks are to think these things are of Christ.
Matt
"I am constantly amazed at how biblically ignorant folks are to think these things are of Christ."
ReplyDeleteMatt
July 15, 2009 1:25 PM
Amen,Amen,and Amen Matt!!!
Guys like Mac have always been able to talk their way out of trouble, or to get influential people to "shut em down" when necessary. In this case, even your detractors and the supporters of Team Brunson HAVE TO ADMIT: Mac has FAILED in talking his way out of this mess and he clearly has not "shut down" the blog. If that was his goal, then man did he blow it! Look at the way HE handled this. Pride, arrogance, greed, bullying, poor decision making, hearing and acting on bad counsel, all have contributed to Mac's downfall.
ReplyDeleteBut ONE person still believes Tom is the person that could have walked right into Mac's office and settled this thing. How do you expect an unrepentant, unregenerate, jealous, homosexual, mentally unstable, sociopath and coward with no credibility to walk into Mac's office and reconcile. (By the way, the above are all things said about "the blogger" by Mac and/or his supporters, some even in the local newspaper.)
I do care about your kids. I cannot begin to imagine the depth of the damage you have done to them. Your witness is a disgrace.
ReplyDeleteCoward that he is, Tom was,and is, too afraid to approach Mac Brunson, or Judge Soud, or the discipline committee, to seek reconciliation. Okay. So wouldn't that make it even more egregious that none of those men, in an act of Christian kindness and mercy, approached Tom instead? Wouldn't someone say, "hey, this guy is too scared to come to us, let's go visit him and put his fears at ease and begin a dialogue with him. Whatever you do, don't make his cowardice even worse, by handing him trespass warnings. That would really frighten such a coward and he might seek legal help. So, let's one of us, or a couple of us, go set down with him and his wife and help the poor coward out."
ReplyDeleteYeah right. Instead, they said "let's send him a long, detailed list of "sins" and demand he meet with all of us alone, and for good measure let's issue trespass warnings, that ought to do it." "Awesome idea, praise Jesus. But let's go even further guys...let's trespass his wife too. he he he" "Amen brother, mama sure will be madder than a wet hen when her teenage daughter sings a solo and she can't even go inside to watch. he he he" "Which of you boys wants to hand him the letter and see his face? Reverend Blount and Reverend King? Okay, yeah that is even sweeter since you guys are laymen that know Tom and his family the best. That is precious. Go get em boys and we'll let Mac know we have shut this coward down and taught him a lesson!"
Since Mac and his congregation seem to like the Old Testament to be preached from almost exclusively each week, let's try and apply this OT scripture to this situation:
ReplyDelete2 Chronicles 7:14 (NKJV)
14 if My people (Mac Brunson & trustees) who are called by My name ("God's man" "deakonis")will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways,(trespass warnings, nepotism, bullying, greed, A-group, etc.) then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their (fellowship/FBC Jax) land.
Readers: When you see Mac and A.C. "humbling" themselves, you will know the end of this matter is finally on its way. Don't hold your breath. These guys are the picture/definition of proud and arrogant. Then they would still have to repent and turn. Not likely for these men who see themselves as pillars and rocks of Christianity.
So, they didn't and won't follow Matthew 18, and you can be sure they won't apply 2 Chronicles to themselves either.
Anon 9;02 am
ReplyDeleteI am 100 percent behind my husband and so are my kids, all the way! we are a very close and strong family and will remain that way until the very end, however long it takes. God is with us and will see us trough this mountain.
By the way,we love our new church and have found a real pastor who truly cares for his sheep.I will never want to go back to FBC under Mac's authority , pastoring and praching. NEVER!
ReplyDeletePRICELESS STATEMENT
ReplyDelete"I always enjoy reading your blog though. You find more ways to make yourself seem sinless while all others are at fault. You should definitely write a book."
July 15, 2009 11:19 AM
===================================
I likewise enjoy reading your thoughts as you just help add more support to the national readers of this blog - YOU ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE WITH YOUR SUPPORTING COMMENTS.
What I dislike reading is headlines about FBC in the Florida Times Union - shameful words from so called professional men of a church (for the time being) I am a member of. Did you enjoy reading that as well?
May I say in closing that the U.S. Constitution, Amendment 1 thus far gives us the freedom of speech - I'm assuming you too are a member of FBC - what a great suggestion you had for Mr. Rich to write a book.
That's the only part of your very "juvenile" statement that made good sense. The more comments like this - the more readers to the blog it brings!
Since you are anonymous can't help but wonder if you are one of the "select 443 just for men" meeting held last night at FBC? Just wondering!
For those of you who sincerely, really, do think that Tom's formerly anonmyous blog "hurts the cause of Christ" and that non-Christians will read it and be turned off by it, what are your thoughts about Wiley Drake. Check out the artice in Associated Baptist Press about this leader in the SBC. It gives you some insight about the "imprecatory" prayers Mac told some seminary students he does NOT pray about bloggers. Yeah right. Here is how some of these "leaders" think and pray about those that disagree with them:
ReplyDelete"Drake, who served one year as the SBC's second vice president in 2006-2007, made news recently when he said in a Fox News Radio interview that he was praying for Obama to die.
In subsequent interviews Drake said he prays "imprecatory" prayers because they are in the Bible, that they account for only about 2 percent of his prayer time and that he also prayed for the deaths of Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush and even fellow Southern Baptist preacher Rick Warren.
The attention earned Drake the distinction of "Worst Person in the World" on the July 13 "Countdown with Keith Olbermann" television program on MSNBC. A commentator often critical of the political right, Olbermann described Drake's idea as "kind of like voodoo."
Wait until Oberman gets wind of Mac Brunson and his outrageous statements and actions....
YEAAHHH! Matt's in da house!
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:45. you desribed my experience exactly at First Baptist Dallas. You might as well have been talking about me in your post.
ReplyDeleteHA HA my word verificate is slyme, Yeah I got yer slyme!
Tom,
ReplyDeleteNot everyone will work to right their wrong. The path you take is like trying to share the gospel and all you talk about is the men who nailed Jesus to the cross. The blood lust the crowd had. The evil of the hearts of the people and you never stop to tell about Jesus, His gift of grace, His offer for salvation.
Evil is in all of us and in some it will be more recognizable than others but the message of the cross should be listened for, as it may come in a still small voice.
I just hope that no one will walk away hating the gospel because someone hates the preacher, preaching it.
For the lonely soul who said they don't like my mug, I had to laugh. I get criticized for using Jon, Jon L. Estes Jon Estes and now my picture from my blog comes up as default.
Every time I have posted to this blog entry I have not slammed Tom or anyone else, I simply asked if there was some good that can be taken. Maybe there can't because the speaker was bigger than the content.
I was there and I thought what Mac had to say was solid, a little dramatic, not as loud as Luter (and I loved Luter).
I do though understand sheep do not know what it like being a shepherd.
Joh 4:40pm. Yes, and smart sheep can recognize a real shepherd too.
ReplyDeleteThere is an excellent sermon about the remnant by Curt Daniel called "The Problem". Google it and listen if you can.
ReplyDeleteIn this sermon he makes an excellent point that refutes what I used to hear in the mega world all the time.
You have all heard it: The complaints from unbelievers about all the hypocrites in the church. Right?
Well, the stock answer we usually give them is that the church is a hospital for sinners. (One wonders when the majority are are going to get off the IV's?)
But Curt Daniel gave a response to this that has been in my heart for a while now:
Yes, the visible church is full of hypocrites. That is true. So what are we, the believers, going to do about it?
I do though understand sheep do not know what it like being a shepherd.
ReplyDeleteJuly 15, 2009 4:40 PM
I do not know if that comment was really from Jon but the above sure does sound like him.
I do care about your kids. I cannot begin to imagine the depth of the damage you have done to them. Your witness is a disgrace.
ReplyDeleteJuly 15, 2009 1:52 PM
Mac is a much better example...a jobs program for his son at FBCJax to learn how to intimidate folks.
Wonder what your church pays his son and Honey? Why don't you ask and see what happens. :o)
anon 1;52 pm
ReplyDeleteDon't feel sorry for our kids! Our kids are doing great , and just like Bro./Pastor Rod said they are more discerning now.We are all proud of Tom for his courage and his stand for what is right. I actually know that he is being used of God...for such a time as this...We will back him up until the end for the cause of Christ. Tom had the courage to voice the concerns of so MANY FBC members,those murmuring in the hallways, cafeteria,Sunday Scool classrooms, etc,etc. You know who you are,more than anyone can imagine.
God bless you, Yvette. Hopefully your comments will silence Watchdog's detractors for a while. At least commenting on WD's family.
ReplyDeleteMrs. WD - you've got yourself a good man!
ReplyDeleteAs I watch the Mac's whole sermon at the convention, it really occurs to me how much the stress and pressure of all the drama at jax and with the WD has gotten to him. I haven't seen a full sermon from him in almost 4 yrs. I sat under his preaching for 2 yrs in Dallas and he was NOT this out-of-his-mind angry and short-tempered. I mean I can't even follow this sermon its sooo tedious and taxing and just draining on the senses. He was not like this in Dallas, he was not this worked up at all like this. He was not condescinding, ranting and raving like this. He's out of control now and fit to go postal at any moment. It is really sad and I kinda feel bad for him. I am just saying it wasn't like this in Dallas.
ReplyDeleteSmall town scandal
ReplyDelete”As pastor of the First Assembly of God, Lake City police say Taylor stole $250,000 from the church through bogus mortgages, loans, and credit cards.
"This is the pastor. This is the man you look up to and everybody trusts, you know? You don't question him," said Kim Cherry.”
“Parishioners have no idea where all that money went.”
Just blindly give and ask no questions?
Is this a new phenomenon or have pastors been doing this kind of thing for years in all denominations and just recently are being caught at it? Where were the leaders of the Church while this was going on? Did this so-called pastor have total control over church finances to this degree? What kind of group of supposedly intelligent men (or women if you aren’t Baptist) would cede that much control to an EMPLOYEE without some sort of check and balance system?
If one owns stock in a public corporation, one is entitled to access to periodical financial statements. First Baptist Church Jacksonville, Inc., IS a public corporation owned by its members. The finances of that public corporation should be open and transparent to all members, if not PROSPECTIVE members. My point is not to accuse Mac Brunson of being a crook, but rather to emphasize the need for financial transparency for the members. If there is nothing to hide, why all the secrecy? Why is a church member ostracized if they even ask an intelligent question?
Mac Brunson is nothing more than an employee of a public corporation. He was hired to be your pastor. He is becoming an expert at self promotion and your leadership is allowing it to continue at the church’s expense. What is their incentive to allow this and when will they see what it is doing to the congregation?
This blog is like a 7th grade classroom. Everytime someone mentions that Tom Rich even might have been guilty of something you all rush in with examples of what SOMEONE ELSE has done. It doesn't matter what Mac, Darrell, Morris, Paige, or anyone else has done--Tom is a malcontent who disrupted the church fellowship and was rightly removed.
ReplyDeleteEnd of story.
Sorry Richard, you are in error on many things, but are correct on a few also. There are two types of corporations; for profit and not for profit. A for profit corporation can be either publicly(public sold stock) held or privately held. A church is a not for profit corporation and does not function under the same laws as a publicly traded for profit corporation.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the members of a church do not own the not for profit corporation. They do however, participate in the function of the organization at will.
Also, the "transparency" that everyone is clammering about is the same for FBCJ as it is for any other church in the country. FBCJ, along with Tom's church, all of the other churches in the SBC once a month have produced the same budget report that they all have been doing since they were formed.
When you bring up other denominations, they cannot be strictly compared with those in the SBC. The reason being that a large number of other denominations, the pastor is the sole authority and has no direct oversight by a group of deacons, trustees, etc. that have the fiduciary responsibility of checks and balances. This is especially true in larger churches.
As far as Brunson and any other pastor of a church is concerned they are in fact employees of the non profit corporation known as the church. They can be hired and fired the same as the janitor, the secretary, etc. This is especially true in larger organizations.
I for one tire of hearing about "transparency" as it relates to the operation of governments and publicly traded corporations. Again, FBCJ like all of the other churches in the SBC and other denominations around the country, do publish on a monthly basis the finances of the church and distribute this to whoever wishes to show up and receive a copy.
What you and others are really asking for is that every jot and tittle be delineated for examination, not withstanding the exact money that everyone is paid and the benefits that they receive. This is so that you and others can determine whether you think it right that the money is spent the way you think is appropriate, especially for money paid to senior staff.
I have never seen that type of documentation in any denomination or even in most publicly traded companies annual reports.
As far as your accusation of self promotion, that is your and others opinion, to which you are entitled. You are also entitled to attend the church of your choosing and your are entitled to donate as much or as little of your hard earned money as you wish.
Sincerely,
T
Some comments on Purveyor's comments:
ReplyDelete"What you and others are really asking for is that every jot and tittle be delineated for examination, not withstanding the exact money that everyone is paid and the benefits that they receive. This is so that you and others can determine whether you think it right that the money is spent the way you think is appropriate, especially for money paid to senior staff."
Oh brother. Some people will never get it. Bottom line: mega churches are eventually going to have to realize that compensation of senior leadership cannot be a closely guarded secret. Corporations and government entities have realized that compensation transparency is a must to ensure wise and fair use of funds.
No truer words were ever spoken by Purveyor here:
"This is so that you and others can determine whether you think it right that the money is spent the way you think is appropriate, especially for money paid to senior staff."
Amen, and amen Truth Purveyor. That is TRUTH!! That is why we can find the compensation of any federal or state employee, that is why we can find the compensation down to the "jot and tittle" of senior management of our publicly traded corporation! I'm for disclosure of "every jot and tittle" of pastor compensation - to those who want to know it.
Here is where Truth Purveyor becomes just "Purveyor":
"As far as Brunson and any other pastor of a church is concerned they are in fact employees of the non profit corporation known as the church. They can be hired and fired the same as the janitor, the secretary, etc. This is especially true in larger organizations."
False. The firing of a janitor has nothing in common with the firing of a Pastor. The Pastor must give a 90 day notice to the church if he resigns. The church, likewise, must give 90 day notice. Who can fire the Pastor and what is the process? Totally different from our janitor.
Here is what must happen under the new bylaws:
1. 3/4 of the Trustees must agree to call a special business meeting. The pastor can only be removed in a special business meeting, and the ONLY way a special business meeting is called now is by 3/4 of Trustees voting for one, or the Pastor himself calling one. The provision of the members calling for a special business meeting was removed in the bylaws that were voted on in November 2007.
2. Members vote in the special business meeting, with a quorum of 1000, to remove the Pastor.
So the Trustees are the gate keeper to the Pastor's position. Guess who selects the Trustees? The Pastor.
How convenient. A Pastor appoints his Trustees (the church gets to vote up or down on his selections as a whole, not individually), the church members cannot nominate trustees. And then it takes a 3/4 majority for them to call the business meeting where the Pastor could then be voted out by the membership.
Before the bylaw changes of Nov 2007, the church members could themselves call a special business meeting for the purpose of calling for a vote of confidence on the pastor, but that was removed.
So come on Purveyor, a bit of a stretch to compare the hiring and firing of a Pastor to a janitor or a secretary. Not even close.
The Pastor, once elected, cannot be removed by the membership, unless 3/4 of the hand-picked Trustees first agree to even allow it to be considered by the membership.
Richard l:54 AM...The only thing about leadership "seeing what has happened to the congregation" is...THEY DON'T CARE!!!!
ReplyDelete7th Grade Classroom 7:42 AM...My answer to you is ...BULL!!!!
Richard 6:02 AM You didn't address what to do if your church is STOLEN out from under the members!!!
Member from Dallas 9:12 PM:....Guess money really doesn't make one happy!
"It doesn't matter what Mac, Darrell, Morris, Paige, or anyone else has done--Tom is a malcontent who disrupted the church fellowship and was rightly removed."
ReplyDeleteHmm. It does not matter to you if Darrell Gilyard is a sexual pervert and pastor?
What fellowship are you speaking of? The fellowship that comes from never disagreeing or questioning the leaders? You call that fellowship? It is not...it is cultic and it has nothing to do with biblical fellowship.
The more FBCJax defenders comment here, the more we see the shallowness of their beliefs.
There are others who are angry that Tiffany broke up the fellowship at Darrell's church. These are lost people who have no discernment. They revile the victims and defend Gilyard.
"The provision of the members calling for a special business meeting was removed in the bylaws that were voted on in November 2007"
ReplyDeleteThis is what you call protecting your job. And taking the congregation completely out of any decision that concerns the future of the church.
It really is amazing how many are willing to go along with such things and put their trust in a few men. I cannot figure out why folks go along with this.
Would the Mac defenders please give us some reasoning why they support such an obvious take over from the congregation and any semblance of the Priesthood of believer?
Anon: 10:35
ReplyDelete"It really is amazing how many are willing to go along with such things and put their trust in a few men. I cannot figure out why folks go along with this"
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Confession Time:
Told my mate that I had been responding to this blog and to be prepared if phone call or personal visit comes to our home to restrict us from coming on the grounds of FBC.
Be assured (anon 10:35) "many members" have lost their trust for these few men. Told my mate more than likely the "FBC Computer Geeks" are tracking the members who share their thoughts on this blog, so be prepared for that phone call - or should we be prepared for a personal visit - I do live in a gated community so really not that easy to get in without permission. SMILE!
Yvette,
ReplyDeleteYou’ve got me thinking of eleven parallels between Tom’s experience and Esther’s experience. Both circumstances were not the result of chance but of God’s grand design. God is sovereign over every area of life. God used Esther and is using Tom to intercede on behalf of their people. (For example, those who came to Tom with the same concerns.) They both set aside their own fear and took action. They were not paralyzed by fear.
When outnumbered and powerless, it is natural for us to feel helpless. Yet, they both resisted this temptation and acted with courage. It is not enough to know that God is in control; we must act with self-sacrifice and courage to follow God’s guidance.
1.
Persia was a world power, and the king, as the center of that power, was one of the wealthiest people in the world. Persian kings collected not only vast amounts of jewelry but also great numbers of women.
Vs.
FBC is a city power, and the preacher, as the center of that power, is one of the most influential people in our city. The preacher in question collects not only material gain but also great numbers of followers.
2.
With virtually no rights and little access to the king, it was better for Esther not to reveal her identity. While boldness in stating our identity as God’s people is our responsibility, at times a good strategy is to keep quiet until we have won the right to be heard. This is especially true when dealing with those in authority over us. But we can always let them see the difference God makes in our lives.
Vs.
WD had very little access to the preacher, it was also better for him not to reveal his identity until he was ready to do so. Certain retaliation were expected and taken against WD.
3.
God placed Esther on the throne even before the Jews faced the possibility of complete destruction, so that when trouble came, a person would already be in the position to help.
Vs.
God placed WD in the middle of the inner workings of FBC even before Mac came, so that when trouble came, he’d already be in the position to help. Sometimes we can’t see God’s purpose in our situation. We need to remember that God is in control. He may be placing us in a position so we can help when the need arises, just like Esther.
4.
Doing what is right will not always make you popular. Those who do right will be in the minority. It is more important to obey God than to obey people. (Acts 5:29)
Vs.
Tom knows how it feels to lose the popularity contest. (But hang in there, so many of us are backing you and following your lead to stand for what is right.)
5.
When people demand loyalties or duties from us that do not honor God, don’t give in, it may be time to take a stand.
Vs.
Exactly what happened to WD and the others at FBC that left, knowing God was no longer being honored.
contd...
ReplyDelete6.
Haman loved his power and authority and the reverence shown him. The Jews, however, looked to God as their final authority, not to any man. Haman realized that the only way to fulfill his self-centered desires was to kill all those who disregarded his authority. His quest for personal power and his hatred of the Jewish race consumed him.
Vs.
If this doesn’t sound like Mac, I don’t know what does. Tom disregarded Mac’s attempt at authority and Mac was consumed with shutting him down.
7.
Haman enjoyed the power and prestige of his position, and he was enraged when Mordecai did not respond with the expected reverential bow. Haman’s anger was not directed just toward Mordecai, but toward what Mordecai stood for. In the end Haman was punished for his arrogant attitude. God will harshly judge those who are prejudiced or whose pride causes them to look down on others, and his preacher boys are held to a higher standard.
Vs.
Parallels to Mac are astounding. He too is not only angry toward you, but toward what you stand for and who you are standing for, anyone who disagrees with him.
8.
Esther risked her life by coming before the king. Her courageous act gives us a model to follow in approaching a difficult or dangerous task. Like Esther, we can; (1) Calculate the cost. Esther realized her life was at stake. (2) Set priorities. She believed that the safety of the Jewish race was more important than her life. (3) Prepare. She gathered support and fasted. (4) Determine a course of action and move ahead boldly. She didn’t think too long about it, allowing the interlude to lessen her commitment to what she had to do.
Vs.
When you faced a hostile audience, like trying to talk about changes within our church, you took action with confidence by following Esther’s inspiring example. You too have calculated the cost, set your priorities, prepared through your attorney, determined your course of action and are moving ahead boldly.
9.
Esther and Mordecai saw that God had placed them in their positions for a purpose, so they seized the moment and acted.
Vs.
God has placed you where you are “for just such a time as this.”
10.
Esther knew her risk. She knew it could cost her her life. Most people would save themselves by remaining silent rather than standing up for what is right.
Vs.
You too decided to courageously do what God would want, and to trust him for the outcome.
11.
God was in control, yet Esther and Mordecai had to act. Some people cannot understand how both can be true at the same time, and yet they are. God chooses to work through those willing to act for him.
Vs.
You have prayed as if all depended on God and acted as if all depended on you.
Continue the good fight.
Anon 10:29,
ReplyDeleteIts good to see that the 7th grade is still open and functioning even during the summer.
Only children use the excuse of "look at what someone else did" to justify their own sins.
"Its good to see that the 7th grade is still open and functioning even during the summer.
ReplyDeleteOnly children use the excuse of "look at what someone else did" to justify their own sins."
July 16, 2009 11:41 AM
Anon 11:41am...I am on 7th grade recess and have missed much.
Could you please with your massive intellect list the sins committed by Dr.Dog?
Please hurry I hear the school bell ringing!!!
Thanks!!!
Truth Purveyor, I do admit that my analogy was flawed. I was only trying to make a point about transparency and checks and balances. The so-called pastor that is the subject of the news article bankrupted this congregation and they are all there scratching their heads trying to figure out how it happened in the first place. And I will reiterate that in no way was I trying to accuse Mac of being a thief.
ReplyDeleteI agree that every line item in a financial statement does not need to be disclosed, but some IDEA to the members where their money is going. Should it be printed and distributed quarterly? No, that might be going to extremes. But the information should be available to members in some fashion without fear of being kicked out of the church just for wanting to review them. Again, if there is nothing to hide, why all the secrecy?
Same thing with the by-laws. The way I understand it, the only way a member can read the by-laws is to go to the church library. I’m sure you have to sign into the library in order to do that. Then you get a letter kicking you out of the church and telling you that you are not a team player.
This doesn’t sit well on a logical mind.
WD has not commited any sins. What he has done is to raise questions concerning actual facts that have taken place that give concern to those who are interested in transparancy. Some have now seen what the Federal government has done in claiming "the sky is falling" and obtaining $780Billion of taxpayer dollars which have done little to turn the economy around and most of the money is still in the vault. People make good decisions and bad decisions all through their life. If we had to do over certain things we would all change something one way or the other.
ReplyDeleteIts refreshing to have FBC Insider give us a view as to what is so important...just be open about things and not keep it such a secret. People are weary of their money being given to causes they are asked to donate and/or their vote means nothing. The leaders do what they want to do regardless of the interest or concern of the people. This is most important in todays economy when little money is available and even harder to locate.And whenever the leaders are going in so many directions no one can keep up with them and they have the VOTING power. Its easy for the bigshots to tell us one thing and then do something else. It all comes down to compromising and hyprocisy. It soon becomes clear when you have been fooled once, but twice is a different situation as we all walk away from knowing it won't happen to us again.
May be I'm missing something here?
ReplyDeleteThe Bible said let your "yes" be "yes" and your "no" be "no"!!!
Jesus identified Himself as the "TRUTH"!!!
The Bible says that God cannot lie!!!
The Church is supposed to be the supporter of truth!!!
And we now have people defending the right of a Pastor and a church to be secretive and now hide things from members?
If anything the church should be the most open and transparent organization on the planet!!!
Were there's secrecy and deception there's a problem!!!
Anon 11:28 AM
ReplyDelete… the "FBC Computer Geeks" are tracking the members who share their thoughts on this blog, so be prepared for that phone call - or should we be prepared for a personal visit - I do live in a gated community so really not that easy to get in without permission. SMILE!
Got news for you anon … “itty bitty fences” and gated communities don’t deter Baptist pastors and their henchmen when they are on a mission:
Itty Bitty Fences
I guess I'm a little confused after reading most of the posts on here. It seems that most people on here aren't in any position of authority in a church and are jealous of those who are and are always complaining about not knowing every financial detail in a church.
ReplyDeleteIf you join a church or are a member of a church then you should know how it is run. If it is a megachurch and run by committees then that is the way they want it to be run. If they discuss every detail in a business meeting then that is their way. Pick the kind of church you like and quit griping about everyone else. Not all churches want every detail discussed in some open business meeting with people who may not be saved or even contribute to the church.
I can assure you that there was no openness and transparency with Jerry Vines as pastor so you people should get over it.
Maybe Tom can introduce you to his new pastor and you can join his church (that is if you even go). I'm sure they discuss every minute detail at every business meeting every month. After all, its the good old Baptist way.
'Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I guess I'm a little confused after reading most of the posts on here."
Exactly.
You are very confused.
You have not read the entire story.
The grape stuff is drooling from your lips.
Anon 3:30. You are right on one point. "Its the good old Baptist way"!!!
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:30 pm
ReplyDelete"I guess I'm a little confused after reading most of the posts on here. It seems that most people on here aren't in any position of authority in a church and are jealous of those who are and are always complaining about not knowing every financial detail in a church."
=================================
Most people jealous . . .NO WAY,
we are affluent, professional, been on committee's, boards, etc. and have contributed thousands plus thousands of dollars to the Bank of FBC.
You need to know that NO WAY are we who happen to blog on this signt the kind of people who carry anger, envy, jealousy, greed, arrogrant, lies, false pride, superiority and ego.
You, whomever you are should know that WE ARE people with joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humiity, kindness, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.
Everyone has a right to an opinion. Right, you are confused!
If you are loving, kind, and all that stuff and have contributed thousands of dollars to the church, then why didn't you have the courage to stand up in a business meeting and say something--or better yet, go in and meet privately and personally with Mac. If you are as wonderful and rich as you say, I'm sure he would have quickly given you an audience.
ReplyDeleteYou people are absolutely amazing. Your talk like vipers out of one side of your mouth and then act like spiritual giants out of the other. I have bad news for you, James said that type of faith ain't gonna save you.
Anon 3:30. Discussing is one thing within a church, however, secrecy is quite another. Also, do not try to judge everyone who post something on here as a moron and that we need to get over it. Life goes on for everyone and we all have a right to say and believe what is right even when we disagree with YOU!!!
ReplyDeleteWD,
ReplyDeleteNot sure if you noticed this or not, but on BaptistLife.com the TimR2 guy had this as him mantra,
"Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can’t, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it.- Robert Frost"
Was that not remarkable since his main point was that you should 'drop it' and say nothing?
I found it quite ironic.
"Mean what you say and say what you mean." That goes a long way with me.
That's a whole lot more transparent.
(Since SLyons isn't being used anymore, can I use it? They don't like my name.)
Only children use the excuse of "look at what someone else did" to justify their own sins.
ReplyDeleteJuly 16, 2009 11:41 AM
I agree. List the sins in detail, please. Let's go over them one by one. I am still wondering how you can excuse to blantant sins of one who should know better.
Ever read Hebrews 10:26-31? Or James when it comes to those who teach the Word?
The problem is that you allow your celebrity pastor to define sin and not the Holy Spirit. This could be quite dangerous for you from an eternal perspective.
Best to study on your own.
"I guess I'm a little confused after reading most of the posts on here. It seems that most people on here aren't in any position of authority in a church and are jealous of those who are and are always complaining about not knowing every financial detail in a church."
ReplyDeletePerhaps you could point us to the 'positions of authority' in the NT churches from scripture.
Perhaps you need to go and read Matthew very closely. Who would be jealous of anyone who "thinks" they are in authority over others in the Bride of Christ. I fear for them because they are so carnal in that thinking.
"If you join a church or are a member of a church then you should know how it is run. If it is a megachurch and run by committees then that is the way they want it to be run. "
ReplyDeleteThose who want a true Body of Christ fellowship are leaving these kinds of social clubs...er...enterprises....er churches.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteI applaud your courage. To all those ANONS that say you are a coward do not not what courage really is. I have been a coward since MAC came to FBC. I too saw what he really was, but did not have courage enough to start a blog like you did.
I have been a member at FBC for more tha 15 years and have know you and your wife for sevreal years. Even though we aren't friends, we did work together several times.
I have stop going to church altogether. Can not stomach listin to DA hypocrite. It has been hard for me as my faith has been somewhat shattered by the things done by DA church.
Many years I spent as an atiest, not believing, listening to all those TV enangelits made me laugh real hard. Then I found him and believed. Then serveral years later I was invited to FBC. Boy that was hard. After listening to all those TV eveanelists, man that was a big step for me.
I miss DR Lindsay.
Anyway I am rambling. I just needed to get this off my heart and mind. I have been struggling to bring myself to ever go to another church, especailly a big one. I have found several small ones but, I do not know. As I said my faith is weak here.
Keep up the good fight and may God be with you and your family.
anon - why would I be jealous because I don't have a position of authority in FBC Jax? Are you implying that we all really, secretly want power and authority and are jealous of those who do have it. This reveals much about your heart and about what is wrong within our churches. People want the respect and authority they can find at church. Wow. So sad. You make people like us sick, not jealous.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading many of these Mac defenders I see why Jesus predicted that the majority of people in the last days will be lead astray!!!
ReplyDeleteDr.Dog these people are absolutely clueless!!!!
Dr Brunson told the congregation Wed night that FBCJ would be probably picketed by West Bourough Baptist Church out of Kansas. I went to their website and it indeed says that they are going to picktet FBCJ. It was not clear to me as to 'why' since their explanation was vague and nonsensical. Does anyone else have any insight?
ReplyDeleteIs there anyway you can stop anonymous posting? Cause its really confusing to read and its hard to tell which anon is reponding to another anon. I don't want real names, just something to make it easier to see who is talking to whom.
ReplyDeleteFor all of you who want transparency and openness in your church what you really mean is that you want to see how much the pastor/staff make. Get real and admit it. If you wanted to know how much the electric bill is, all you have to do is read a financial report.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that many churches (and not just mega churches) choose to keep that information confidential and determined by the proper committees that have been duly elected by the church.
Can you imagine the fiasco at FBC Jax if Mac's salary was made public? There would be people that think he makes too much, those that think he makes too little, and those that think its about right--and the ultimate end would be a pathetic church fight. Most likely even worse than this pathetic current situation.
Perhaps your church is wise by having salaries determined by proper committees.
BTW, if you don't like the way FBC Jax is run, then why did you join? Its been the same way for a long long time.
Is there ever a time during the year that you have a business/budget meeting at FBC, Jax?
ReplyDeleteIf so, then why not stand up and make a motion about whatever you think needs to be changed. Of course this will require you to stand up in person and have people know who you are and you will actually have to say something. There's nothing wrong with that--its just the way that it is.
If the church likes/approves what you have to say, then it will be voted in. If not, it won't be and that should be the end of the story.
The real issue is that I doubt seriously if any of you have the courage to stand up and actually make a motion. Tom Rich sure didn't.
ANON 9:37 am
ReplyDeleteI can understand why your faith has been shattered,my faith has been challenged too at times. Just have to remind myself to put my trust only in JESUS and not on men.The only one worthy of our worship is Jesus.I advice you to find a small church to worship and fellowship with fellow believers, there are plenty in Jacksonville.
Anons July 17, 2009 8:26 AM &
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2009 8:26 AM,
There is no such thing as the business meeting you are referring to any longer at FBCJ. There are trustees that make the decisions based on what Mac thinks is best. These guys are hand picked by Mac.
(Talk about a stacked deck!)
When there is a resemblance of a meeting, it is only to tell you what has been decided, there is no option for objection at that point.
Maybe you don't know about the security team in place that is not in uniform. Maybe you've not seen them tackle and escort people out of the building.
I hope you don't attend FBCJ so that you won't have to be a part of that scenario. I hope at your church things are done fairly and openly.
The issues on this blog are not solely about finances. Unfortunately, there are many more issues that have to do with how a pastor is mishandling his members and how he is turning the stomachs of lost people who are watching him.
Thanks for your concern. I'm sure it was well intended.
The budget does not give the amount of the electric bill any more. My guess is that it's included in the maintenance cost.
ReplyDeleteI have yet to find mega church that has a true business meeting as historically is found in most Baptist churches where, historically, we believed in the Holy Priesthood.
ReplyDeleteThey might be called business meetings but they are more informational and the information is tightly controlled and questions usually vetted beforehand if any are allowed at all.
People in mega's are taught that questioning salaries and expenses is sinful because they are to completely trust those in control of such things. They use words such as 'God ordained' or those 'God chose as elders', etc. When in reality, mere men chose them.
The problem is not choosing which business model type church to attend. That is silly. The problem is ignorance on what scripture models as the Body of Christ. Most of the models we see have nothing in common with scripture but everything in common with wordly models.
An historical perspective bears this out. It was not long after the resurrection, around 200-300 AD we see the Greek pagan temple model of governance mingled with the Body of Christ by Constantine who made Christianity legal for the first time. He simply converted Pagan temples to churches and kept many of the 'rites' and 'traditions' of those temples. This is where the 'pulpit' comes from and where even pews come from. It is also where the tradition of one man 'orating' before the pew sitters comes from. (Check out the NT and see where most sermonizing is done...not in the Body meeting but OUTSIDE the Body to unbelievers)
From there the church was mingled with the state and the lines of politics and worship blurred. The Reformation was to reform the Catholic Church out of Rome. Not to reform the church/state paradigm. The protestants had agressive magistrates, too. It was the law to attend, take the sacraments and have your infant baptized.
Unfortuantly, in America, the church has taken on the business model of governance. Our pastors are charismatic CEO's and spend their time taking Leadership training.
Each one of these models puts man in the place of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
As far as mega church salaries and governing models go, A case in point is Rick Warren. Much was made of his wealth and he tells folks that he 'reverse' tithes 90% of his income. But what most folks do not know is that a few years back, PDL Inc. was in danger financially so Warren gave it 3 million out of his pocket. It is one thing to reverse tithe 20 million but another all together to reverse tithe 200 million.
Folks do not take into consideration the many varied income streams of mega church pastors so publishing the pastor's salary does not present the full picture. In effect, the church ends up paying the pastors salary while he is spending much of his time on other income ventures such as writing books, speaking engagements, his personal para church org, etc.
When planning the new building of one mega, the only model for utility costs happened to be the city convention facilities which, at a discount, ran about 15,000 mo.
These types of things were not so suspect to the average pew sitter in the late 80's and through the 90's when we were flush with prosperity. Now, they are suspect so the message is one of sinning if you question the model.
To say to someone, go somewhere else if you do not like it is to violate the spirit of what Paul taught us, Inspired by the Holy Spirit, for the Body of Christ: The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you.
My position is that they are not the Body of Christ so you should not be there anyway. In a true Body of Christ, every member is important and spiritual gifts developed and used to edify the entire Body. There are no pew sitters in a true Body of Christ. There are no mere 'attendees'. And we are not seeking the 'unchurched' to attend. We are a gathering of true believers...some more mature than others for a time but all true believers growing in Holiness.
Matt
Matt: 1:06pm. Well said. Thats why the Bible declares "come out from amongst them". The leading of the Holy Spirit tells one when it is time to leave a "Building". The church certainly does not meet any longer in houses. So when you are to go out its from the "Building" not a house. Church is OVER. End of days is HERE regardless of what any of these guys has to say. Its just so they can enjoy the high life!!
ReplyDeleteLet me get this perfectly clear.
ReplyDeleteYou say that they have a security team that tackles and escorts people out of the building? If that really happened (which I seriously doubt) then I would sure like to hear the truth about what caused this scenario.
I do notice with you folks on here that if someone doesn't agree with you and Tom Rich then they are either: lost, backslidden, kool-aid drinkers, or just stupid.
Somehow I think you should be looking in a mirror when you make those unwarranted assumptions.
Be sure to let me know the truth about the security squad.
"You say that they have a security team that tackles and escorts people out of the building? If that really happened (which I seriously doubt) then I would sure like to hear the truth about what caused this scenario"
ReplyDeleteIt most certainly does happen. I am not sure I would use the word 'tackle' but usually they are surrounded by several men and escorted out...physically if need be.
The excuse used is that anyone who is in disagreement might be dangerous so do not take the chance. There is a pragmatic logic in that but it is not of Christ. Christians do not respond that way.
In most mega's the security process is very well thought out. In most, even if they have several services, there are plain clothes policemen (paid quite well for this extra work, I would add) , sheriff's and or even volunteers who are assigned an 'area' where they sit. They are there to prevent any disruption. They are NOT the same as ushers who are dealing with typical disruptions like crying babies or medical problems.
At one premier service in a brand new mega building, a heckler stood up during the service and did not even get to finish his sentence before he was surrounded and physically taken out, arrested and booked downtown before the service was over.
I have often thought of that young man. I never followed up to see who he was and wished I had. What if, we as the Body of Christ, had let him heckle..making sure he had no weapon, of course but allowing him to speak? What if we had showed him love instead of power? What if we had turned the other cheek? Walked that extra mile?
Does anyone remember the story about David being heckled? And David saying it was sent from God? That may not be an exact parallel but I have to think that we use wrong tactics with our detractors. We use force when love may be called for. Most mega's have no process for using basic Christian wisdom and discernment in these situations.
Could we ever win that young man to Christ now? I do not know, but I know I have been led several times to pray for him and repented that I did not seek him out and listen to his concerns and show him the TRUE Christ even if he walked away convinced his view was right. We just plant seeds, the Holy Spirit makes them grow.
I know many will come on here and point out the tragic situation with Fred Winters. In any mega church that situation cannot be remedied without metal detectors, etc. And trust me that is discussed in every single mega church security department. There may come a time when you DO walk through a detector to attend church in these mega's.
You must know, that in many state of the art mega's,you are being watched as you sit there. They watch for any indication of disruptions not just by those police sitting in the section but by many cameras scanning the pew sitters.
I predict we will see more and more of the type of thing that happened to Fred Winters and it is just another reason to add to my list of why mega churches are bad ideas. I also believe they are great targets for terrorists. And I predict we will see that happen here in our lifetime.
Matt
Christian pimps
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/uncategorized/hired-shepherds
I quit giving directly to these types of deceivers long ago. I give to real ministries....
ReplyDeleteWhy haven't you?
If you haven't seen security take someone out of church then you aren't an FBC faithful.
ReplyDeleteSo they have actually removed people from the service? Are you absolutely serious? And why were these people removed?
ReplyDeleteI doubt seriously if they would remove a real member from the service for making a motion about something valid.
If I'm wrong, then you need to get out of that church as fast as you can get. If I'm right, then you need to quit spreading lies.
Mike Everson had several members removed for opposing a vote an a deacon recommendation while Pastor at Prays Mill in Douglasville GA.
ReplyDeleteNow, that is not spreading a lie.
We are talking about FBC Jax and not some church somewhere on the planet earth. Its a lie to say or imply that they did this in Jax if they didn't.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete"Let me get this perfectly clear.
You say that they have a security team that tackles and escorts people out of the building? If that really happened (which I seriously doubt) then I would sure like to hear the truth about what caused this scenario."
Like the previous Anon said, you must not be a member at FBCJ not to have seen people 'escorted' out of the building.
I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head to give you:
1.) A man that appeared to be homeless was said to have alcohol on his breath when he entered the building. (This assessment was made by the "Welcoming Ushers".) So, 2 plain clothes guys followed him to the front of the auditorium and as he started to enter the second row, front and center, they both took an elbow, said something to him and veered him off to a side exit.
I was very saddened by the fact that people who are in apparent need, such as the homeless look, the alcohol breath, are more of a disruption than a ministry opportunity.
2.) After 9-11 the church determined that we should not allow backpacks and such into the auditorium. We were looked at as a larger target than the Twin Towers due to having 9,000 of us all in one place. (That was also the time period when Dr. Vines was speaking out about Muslims.) A man with a backpack entered the building, again the "Welcoming Ushers" had the backpack conversation with him and took it to the usher's room for him to pick up after the service. The man was not happy, but went into the auditorium anyway, talking loudly, again going all the way toward the front of the auditorium. Two plain clothes guys quickly made their way to him, and another came running up behind them, there was a brief struggle when they tried the elbow escort, they all went to the floor. I called it a 'tackle'. He was removed and was very vocal the whole way out. Who knows what his situation was? It just felt bad to see that in church.
3.) During one of Dr. Vine's sermons someone several rows behind me was talking loudly. I assumed it would stop soon. When it didn't most of us turned around to see what was going on due to the volume of the talking. A woman stood to her feet and started talking loudly toward Dr. Vines. Several plain clothes guys came from nearby, two went in on both sides of her, took her elbows and got her to the aisle. She was still talking loudly to Dr. Vines about how she disagreed with what he was saying. She went limp and the men had to 'drag' her out due to that. Dr. Vines mentioned that he knew who she was and that she had either emailed or called him that week to tell him how she disagreed with the sermon the week before. She was clearly a disruption and escorting her out seemed to be the best thing to do. I hope they treated her kindly and had conversation with her about what went down.
My original point in the earlier post was that I've seen people escorted out for lesser reasons than disagreeing with what's going on in church.
Will it happen again? I'm sure.
I don't know if anyone has been removed from a business meeting for objecting but you didn't specify whether your doubt was pertaining to a business metting or a church service.
ReplyDeleteFFBCI there was also a lady in the balcony during a Sunday morning service who was commenting loudly. I was not near enough to hear what she was saying. The plain clothes went to her and presumably asked her to leave, they said something to her. She was cooperating with whatever they asked her and it ended up with one man taking her underneath her arms and another taking her feet and they carried out that way. Don't know anything else about her or the situation.
I do know that deacons who are not in "lockstep" with the current program are made to feel very uncomfortable by leadership. If you aren't chiming in 100% then you aren't wanted around.
"I doubt seriously if they would remove a real member from the service for making a motion about something valid."
ReplyDeletePerhaps you can explain in what venue a person has an opportunity to publicly make a motion in a mega church.
You keep making a point that does not exist. Perhaps you do not know better?
Lydia: The motions are all controlled by the Chairman and the trustees. You cannot bring forward a motion until the leaders approve same. It will fall on deaf ears and you could not get control of a microphone if you had to. You would be ignored. Whatever agenda is in the mind of the leaders controls the motions. Anyone attempting to cry foul would be soon surrounded and escorted out of the assembly if they persisted in raising their voices. This eliminates dissention of any type. Follow the leader or out the door you go. Just read the bylaws as it is spelled out rather nicely. The only venue is the INTERNET and only a small number of the church assembly have a computer, or if they have a computer would they even read this blog., as they are told NOT too. Thats what the leaders KNOW and use. They know most of the membership just take their word for everything. Its called control.
ReplyDeleteI asked one of the Trustees and he said any member can make a motion at a business meeting because that's allowed under Robert's Rules of Order.
ReplyDeleteYeah.
ReplyDeleteJust try it.
Have you ever seen it done at FBCJ?
No.
Never in my 30+ years.
Here's a simple test case...you can try it out at the next business meeting, this Wed or next:
ReplyDelete"Excuse me, Mr. Modertor! One of the trustees said Robert's Rules of Order apply and thus as a member am entitled to bring a motion. Thank you. I have a motion for the church to consider. 'I move that the church rescind the Deacon's Resolution of 2009-1 as being unbiblical, unnecessary, and am embarassment to our church.'
Thank you, Mr. Moderator, for recognizing my motion"
See how far that gets you.
That's why you should tell the moderator before the meeting so he knows what to expect.
ReplyDeleteIs there a second? I heard none all opposed! The nays have it. Next.
ReplyDeleteAnon 7:58
ReplyDeleteOpen your blind eyes.
The hatred and contempt you have for me is eating you up from the inside.
Your inability to fairly judge what has happened and is happening gives me great concern for you, and for your wife and kids if you have a family.
Get on with your life. Quit visiting this blog, and quit reading Baptist Life. Harboring this resentment you have for me and my family will do you no good.
It must take a lot of your time trying to figure out what you can say about me here on this blog, to paint me as a person painting himself as a martyr.
--
So your hatred for Mac Brunson is not eating you up from the inside? Ha. I feel bad for your family, I mean, how lond does it take to watch Mac's services and then write a whole blog and keep coming on to comment?
Maybe you are the one who needs to stop watching Mac Brunson. Seriously, if you all hate him SO much, and think he is so stupid, then why do you keep on watching him?
I don't get it.