There is a news report out that Geoff Hammond, the current SBC North American Mission Board (NAMB) president is in hot water, and his trustees are soon to be meeting to decide on his fate.What are the Trustees' concerns?
Morale at the agency is apparently low. And, this other major "disaster":
"-- that Hammond had stopped meeting with an executive leadership coach trustees had hired to work with him and was seeking a different coach..." (quote from Baptist Press).
What concerns me is not that he didn't use the RIGHT coach, but that this guy needs a coach IN THE FIRST PLACE!
"Executive leadership coach? Our mission dollars are paying for an "executive leadership coach" for the head of a mission agency?
Why do supposedly "God-called" men need to have "coaches" to help them lead and do their jobs? I mean, really. Men that were called to the ministry by God, spent years at seminary in training, whom God called to be pastor or leader somewhere, who now need some "guru" to come in and help them decide how to lead?
Another recent example is a pastor from Houston, Texas, who recently spent three days in Nashville to be "coached" by Maurilio. Maurilio and this pastor openly "Tweeted" d
uring this pastors stay. From the Tweets, we learn that Maurilio is this pastor's "creative coach". On his Tweets, this pastor described Maurilio as "he can really draw it out" - his creativity that is. Both Maurilio and this pastor posted pictures on Twitter during his stay, and they spent Wednesday through Friday designing the pastor's next three sermon series. While there, the preacher experienced a "quality creative breakthrough", and their meetings were described as "creative and strategic exercises".
uring this pastors stay. From the Tweets, we learn that Maurilio is this pastor's "creative coach". On his Tweets, this pastor described Maurilio as "he can really draw it out" - his creativity that is. Both Maurilio and this pastor posted pictures on Twitter during his stay, and they spent Wednesday through Friday designing the pastor's next three sermon series. While there, the preacher experienced a "quality creative breakthrough", and their meetings were described as "creative and strategic exercises".This pastor and Maurilio "Tweeted" about their fine dining experiences at some nice restaurants around "Nashvegas", even took pictures of their gourmet plates and put them up on the Internet for their Tweeter "followers" to enjoy.
Are not there lay people, or staff members at the church, that can coach the pastor, that can "draw out" his creativity? Must he fly to Nashvegas to work with a marketing consultant? Geoff Hammond - there aren't people in his organization that can help him? He needs an "executive leadership coach"?
I've heard reports that Brunson had a coach of sorts during his time in Dallas - Mike Miller - who was hired to help Brunson manage his time and enhance his leadership skills. Who knows, maybe Maurilio is "coaching" Brunson as well.
This sort of thing - a pastor having to fly to spend 1/2 week with a "creative coach", in order to "draw out" his creativity, to have creative and strategic exercises, and to go to restaurants and just pal around....and then to TWITTER ABOUT THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE...it makes me wonder how much of this is going on with other SBC pastors and leaders who are spending God's money? Is there a market out there for "pastor coaching" like Maurilio does? I thought pastors were "Men of God" that were seminary-trained and that God used to lead the church - but now the trend is that pastors need to spend quality time with a creative coach to figure out what to preach, how to preach, and how to lead?
When I hear of "executive coaches" at the mission board for the president, it makes me glad there is a task force looking at the overall structure of the SBC - but I wonder if these task force members are as disgusted as the lay people are. We hear reports this week that Cooperative Program giving is down 2.65%, or $14.6 million from last year - which in this economy isn't too shabby.
Memo to GCR Task Force: please find and get rid of this wasteful spending, and put accountability measures in place to make sure our mission dollars are not wasted. I think it safe to say: Executive Coaches are not helping Southern Baptists fulfill the Great Commission.
I think it very appropriate to quote Mary Kinney Branson in her book "Spending God's Money":
"The extent of misuse [of money] is directly proportional to the distance between the giver and the spender."
We see it at the national level with our federal government.
And we see it at the national level within the SBC.
And we see it even in our mega churches, where money is spent without the givers having any right to any significant detail whatsoever on how it is spent.
One positive aspect of the NAMB story that needs to be said:
ReplyDeleteAt least they have a Trustee board that is NOT beholden to the leader, but that recognizes their first responsibility is to oversee the organization for the BENEFIT OF THE ORGANIZATION, and not the benefit of the leader of the organization.
I don't always agree with you, but I think you are dead on with this one! If he needed to be coached on leadership, he should never have been put in place as the leader of NAMB.
ReplyDeleteIt is stuff like this, that keeps me from being too upset with cutting our support for the CP, when it is being spent on leadership coaches.
OK, I'm going to fill in for Thy Peace here:
ReplyDeleteOff-Topic:
Luther Didn't Follow Matthew 18
The above link takes you directly to an article at the Wartburg Watch. An AWESOME article, a must read. I think this week's articles over there will be of great interest to readers of the Watchdog.
World,
ReplyDeleteThey are using the Corporate approach while using GODS word to promote self gratification and power.
I have seen this for years and have wondered many times the same thing. I know for a fact many use the WA Criswell website for sermons. Just listen, copy and paste notes for Sunday's sermons.
That easy.
To bad many will not believe what we say and just call us babblers.
And many of those within the Southern Baptist "leadership?" wonder why things are they way they are? or say ..........
“Is it any wonder our churches are in the condition and mess they are in today? They are in the condition and mess today because of the mess and condition of our preachers. Straighten out the preachers, straighten out their walk and “the church” will receive the blessings and revival God desires”.
Now who can coach them in TRUTHS? There is only one, our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ.
"But now the trend is that pastors need to spend quality time with a creative coach to figure out what to preach, how to preach, and how to lead?"
ReplyDeleteDr.Dog is possible that many of these men have not been called by God but by their own conceit,arrogance and greed?
The Bible O.T.and N.T.clearly warn us that all men have not been called by God!!!
If you need a human creative coach to choose your sermons,title,delivery,etc and not the Holy Spirit....."CLUE" you may have not been called by Christ!!!
"In the last days perilous times will come[2Tim.3:1]!!!
"Boy are we there"!!!
"Dr.Dog is possible that many of these men have not been called by God but by their own conceit,arrogance and greed?"
ReplyDeleteor God called by..
Daddy.....hmmm Everson's
or Momma, uncle, cousin, brother, sister, grandpa, grandma, another pastor buddy...
God Called or Man Called, I have always questioned this in many of our current
... "pulpit speakers"
"When I hear of "executive coaches" at the mission board for the president, it makes me glad there is a task force looking at the overall structure of the SBC - but I wonder if these task force members are as disgusted as the lay people are. We hear reports this week that Cooperative Program giving is down 2.65%, or $14.6 million from last year - which in this economy isn't too shabby."
ReplyDeleteTom, Have you seen the list of GCR commission members? The ones chosen to come up with strategies for carrying out the GCR, including restructuring?
They probably have personal coaches, to. It is the same people who got us where we are.
http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/post/Hunt-names-GCR-Task-Force.aspx
Funny that Hammond is in trouble for not meeting with his coach. Is anyone one aware of the charlatan that Hammond replaced? Bob Reccord who DOES coaching. The same guy who did all the typical things we are reading about such as writing books on our dime, using his position to build his personal empire.
Here is his website:
http://totallifeimpact.com/joomla/index.php
You can donate there if you like.
Reccord would still be at NAMB if the Christian Index article had not appeared. If you ever get the chance, read the names of those who sent support letters AFTER everyone found out about his shenanigans.
http://www.christianindex.org/2206.article
Read Mary Kenney's book and the Christian Index article about Reccord to get a taste of this stuff and how long it has been going on.
http://www.christianindex.org/1978.article
The fact that they think in terms of 'coaches' should tell us something. And don't put your trust in our trustees. They have no clue and are usually in awe of the leaders they are tasked for accountability.
Just stop sending them money to pay for coaches and pastry chefs at Pecan Manor. It is the only way things will change.
There are plenty of other ways to support missions that go directly to the missionaries and not to fat cat bureaucrats.
By the way, shouldn't the Holy Spirit be their 'coach'?
What do we have now; leadership/creative coaches "trying" to replace the the leading of the Holy Spirit upon a pastor? The church is truly institutionalized. What happened to the pastor getting on his knees in prayer, and asking the blessing of the Holy Spirit on his ministry, his words and his message, and indeed his very life!!!! Mere men call themselves to the ministry, usually for worldly reasons (pride, money,fame,etc.) and find that they have NO qualifications, nor any "fire" in THEIR self-calling, so they must turn to life coaching gurus to help them try to fool themselves and fool the people into thinking they are God called. An honorable person would recognize that they arn't CALLED by God in the first place and get out. We are truly in the last days and in the church of Laodicea!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteIn the corporate world they have whats called "mentoring". This is where higher management personnel take a lower manager under their wings and coach them. Probably the corporate style sounds good and the church has bought into it as "cutting edge", "Market Driven", and "Progressive" in order to keep pace and be competitive in brandishing their individual brands.
ReplyDeleteThe more one hears of these selling techniques the more one realizes the church is OVER!!! My suggestion, stay home and pray and keep your money for a rainy day.
I understand from "talk radio" that our current Administration is using "behavioral scientist" to sell their agenda for this country. Would these church creative coachs be something similiar to "behavioral scientist". And is it OK that Gods money is wasted in this way? An old saying is; "If the cook can't cook get him out of the kitchen". One of the first signs to the man in the pulpit, should be that he needs secular help to stay there. Since when is a "coach" type called by the Holy Spirit to plan a sermon series for the preacher. That's should be done by the leading of the Holy Spirit upon the preacher. Neither is using other preachers sermons off of the internet or from a book acceptable. God must lead the preacher through the study of His Word, the Gospel is not for sale through a media guru. Man has done an "excessive" job of cheapening the Gospel. I don't think the mighty preacher of the past such as Charles and John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon, and Dwight L. Moody used creative coaches or the sermons of another. Their life creative coach was The Lord Jesus Christ, through the leading of the Holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteFBC Jax'ers will remember the "Fresh" series that Brunson preached upon his arrival in Jax.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful banners were placed all over.
The choir members dropped the robes for pastel golf shirts.
Baskets of tipped over fruit were on the platform. How lovely!
The ushers were made to wear "Fresh" aprons as though they were fruit vendors (oh, the images in my mind of our more portly ushers with the aprons stretched across their bellies will never be erased).
That whole gig was the result of using a media marketing consultant..."creative consultants"....
And here's the funny part...the consultant that was paid for this "Fresh" campaign, used the same "Fresh" mantra and artwork templates for another church.
Sigh.
FBC Jax'ers will remember the "Fresh" series that Brunson preached upon his arrival in Jax.
ReplyDeleteBeautiful banners were placed all over.
The choir members dropped the robes for pastel golf shirts.
Baskets of tipped over fruit were on the platform. How lovely!
The ushers were made to wear "Fresh" aprons as though they were fruit vendors (oh, the images in my mind of our more portly ushers with the aprons stretched across their bellies will never be erased).
That whole gig was the result of using a media marketing consultant..."creative consultants"....
And here's the funny part...the consultant that was paid for this "Fresh" campaign, used the same "Fresh" mantra and artwork templates for another church.
Sigh.
___________
I don't know if you meant to do this, Tom, but do you have any idea how hokey this sounds to someone not there?
Maybe that is part of the problem, being 'there' desensitizes us to the hokiness and shallowness of such approaches. We become used to it as norm and expect to be wowed more and more which means we need new coaches and more ideas. We cannot get enough. Madison Ave gets this about us.
Does the Word need this sort of help? Is not the Cross enough?
A mega in my town is doing a big Madison Ave campaign called "Not a Fan". T-shirts, bumper stickers, banners, billboards, etc. It is a bit confusing but means not a fan of Jesus but a follower. the biggest problem with such a campaign is that anyone can buy a T shirt and then go live like hell wearing the shirt. And they do.
Could it be that folks like being entertained and part of some campaign because Jesus Christ alone is not enough for them?
Sounds like Maurilio is a modern day muse.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any idea how hokey it was to those that were THERE? To see the ushers with white fruit vendor aprons, with the word "Fresh" and pastel fruit pictures?
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm told FBC Jax paid a pretty penny for all of the media package - the banners, the artwork, the aprons, etc...and it all came in from Nashvegas...
Dr.Dog it's all for show in many of our Churches.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible and the Gospel message has been gradually dumb down to where people know longer know the Word of God!!!
Now think for a moment!!
What man of God would turn from exposition of God's infalliable Word to skits and fancy backdrops???
Men more concerned about the bottom line than they are about the veracity of Scriptural Truth and the edifying of the saints...
Why are these people doing these things???
Jesus once stated and it can't be denied:::
"What's in a person's heart is going to manifest itself outward eventually.There's no way he can contain it.
If he loves God with all his heart,soul,mind and strength;the person will always aspire to glorify Christ....By contrast if he does'nt love God then it's times for creative coaches and other secular distractions such as we see abounding in our Churches today!
"WORSE AND WORSE".. Dr.Dog...."WORSE AND WORSE"!!!
"Beautiful banners were placed all over."
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if they are the same banners but my former mega had new ones each month in the atrium to promote a sermon series. I was astonished to learn they cost anywhere from 4-5000 dollars each. Once when I was on staff, they had ordered one for a series but the 'blue' was not right, so they threw it away and started over.
That amount each month for a large full color banner that is used maybe twice. Some folks don't even make that much each month.
Another reason to stop funding such madness.
It is putting on a show. It is a 'production'. It is 'theatre'
ReplyDelete"Sounds like Maurilio is a modern day muse."
ReplyDeleteAugust 4, 2009 12:03 PM
Exactly Anon.
What is in a person's heart will eventually come out!!!
Maurilio is always tweeting or blogging about his fancy things,trip,dining,etc revealing essentially where his thoughts are!!!
Next his ideas for the Churches are drawn from wordly,carnal,secular society not the Bible...
Maurilio believes in his heart based on his own actions,that the Bible and the Gospel message are not relevant enough so he has to help God get the message about Christ out to the world using his own genius!!!
It's imperative to seperate what a person says from what he does...
As the saying goes it's not what they say.It;s what they do.
Actions speak louder than words!!!
Can you imagine A.W. Tozer incorporating the use of creepy Morilio? Tozer would put the smackdown on any input from that clown!
ReplyDeleteGoes to show what imposters "pastors" like Mac and his ilk are. Pretenders all around.
"Beautiful banners were placed all over."
ReplyDelete================================
Speaking of Banners, my favorite one was the new one that FBC specifically made just for the pew of the first lady! Very impressive.
One of the things I loved about Mrs. Lindsay is how she worked the crowd - she never had a "Golden Banner" marking her seat and was her norm to mix within the audience when it came to seating.
Mrs. Vines once told me "saving seats" was a sin when I asked if anyone was sitting beside her, however, the members always respected where she sat and no one ever sat in her respected place.
Sorry, but making Banners to mark the "select" people's pews is tacky! I know, the good old days are gone and in with the new!
I think that banner is more for the camera guys, so as they get ready for the show to start, they know where they're going to have to swing the camera to multiple times during the service.
ReplyDelete:)
Morale has been bad at NAMB ever since they did all the restructuring from the Home Mission Board. Mary Kenney in her book talked about there being only a handful of home missionaries funded full time during her time there. Millions and millions spent but only a handfull of full time missionaries funded.
ReplyDeleteTaking everything into consideration with the IMB problems, NAMB scandals, Paige Patterson and SBTS teaching not only ESS but their hypocrisy on many other subjects, I have come to the conclusion it is a sin to send them money. I mean, if I know these things are going on and I fund it, what does that say about me?
Someone was telling me just the other day about an IMB employee who put in a request for an elevator in their building in a foreign country. The request was granted and several years later, someone was visiting and found no elevator was ever installed. The money was embezzled.
"Speaking of Banners, my favorite one was the new one that FBC specifically made just for the pew of the first lady! Very impressive."
ReplyDeleteAre you serious? These are folks who do not take the Word seriously.
Mark 12
38As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 40They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
Luke 11
43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces
James 2
2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?
Matthew 7
15(T) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are(U) ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them(V) by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So,(W) every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19(X) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them(Y) by their fruits.
21(Z) "Not everyone who(AA) says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will(AB) enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who(AC) does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22(AD) On that day(AE) many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not(AF) prophesy in your name, and cast out demons(AG) in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23(AH) And then will I declare to them, 'I(AI) never knew you;(AJ) depart from me,(AK) you workers of lawlessness.'
"Nashvegas"
ReplyDeleteThat says it all
"One of the things I loved about Mrs. Lindsay is how she worked the crowd - she never had a "Golden Banner" marking her seat and was her norm to mix within the audience when it came to seating."
ReplyDeleteAugust 4, 2009 12:54 PM
Ditto Anon!!!To this day Mrs.Lindsay is and was one the most kind and sweet and humble women I have ever meet!!!
The Glory of Christ radiated from this fine Christian woman!!!
The Bible declares that we as Christians are to "maginify thy Word above the name of Jesus". What has happened is, the devil has added an "l" to the word and changed it to world. When man chooses to disobey God and not depend on HIM for guidance then all Hell is let loose. It may sound like change, look like change, feel like change but it is of Satan. People who do not depend on the Word of God are a law unto themselves whether they are in or out of church. Think about it. Sort of like the narrow and broad roads and few there be that find it, (narrow). God help us get back to basics.
ReplyDelete"creative coach",eh? so that's what we're calling snake oil salesmen these days....?
ReplyDeleteAnyone could benefit from a spiritual mentor or discipler or "coach" -- if the coach is a person of spiritual maturity who encourages the one being coached into a life a greater godliness, love, and service. (Like Paul coached Timothy.) But coaches for creativity or marketing? Is this what they are teaching in seminary these days?
ReplyDeleteyea they're teaching how to be a good PERFOMER. That's what it's all about - performance, presentation, packaging. The better you are then the others, the more $$$ will roll in. Oh, but call that TITHE.....
ReplyDeletealthough I don't think they are teaching this in seminary. No that's where guys like Morilio come in.
I am a bit paranoid today because I actually agree with Tom Rich on something.
ReplyDeleteSBC pastors as a whole are Godly men, called by God, and serve admirably; however, most of the mega church pastors are beyond description. I know many of them personally and trust me, you only know the hem of the garment. They are far worse than you can know or imagine.
Hopefully God will have mercy on us all for what we have created.
Speaking of the I M B, an SBC lead deceptive Board member group with many part of the Executive committee,
ReplyDeleteRead this in the AJC in Atlanta...
http://www.ajc.com/news/southern-baptists-talk-leadership-107505.html
"Southern Baptists talk leadership change"
By Christopher Quinn
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
7:46 p.m. Monday, August 3, 2009
Southern Baptist leaders could remove the president of their North American Mission Board, based in Alpharetta, next week.
They hired Geoff Hammond to run the evangelism arm of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination in 2007. He is overseen by a board of 57 members, including 21 executive committee members and 36 trustees.
An e-mail from the Rev. Jason Pettus, a trustee from Kentucky, says some of the executive committee believe Hammond has not responded to direction from them, and morale at the agency is low.
Southern Baptists have defined themselves by evangelism. At the same time, conversions have dipped in recent years and the denomination has stopped growing.
Pettus said by phone he sent the e-mail because he heard rumors of discontent with Hammond and wants to clarify what will happen at the executive committee meeting Tuesday, Aug. 11. The e-mail says Hammond’s removal is a possible action to be taken.
Pettus wants trustees to attend as well.
The Rev. Lester Cooper of Cumming, a trustee, said he had not heard of the discontent until he got the e-mail. “I think Dr. Hammond has done an outstanding job,” he said.
Hammond declined to comment.
Why do they hire people in the first place for executive positions, of whom they are not qualified to begin with? And if they are qualified, it appears the trustees decided that this executive did not possess the "proper" skills to move the organization in certain direction. So they hire a coach. Maybe they should hire well recommended and verified managers or executive.
ReplyDeleteNow for pastors. There is no excuse for going to Maurilio for coaching or for developing sermon series or for improving church ambiance. What are they teaching in the seminaries now-a-days?
I can understand in the areas of highly specialized area as in technology and medicine, you need consultants to help you get tasks done.
But sermon preparations for a preacher? Executive coaching for an executive who is failing to do his job?
Can you imagine having a sermons series preparation coach for Our Lord Jesus Christ?
How about for Paul?
How about for Peter?
And the interesting thing is except for Paul, none of them were educated.
At the way SBC is going with it's Church Make Overs with these high priced consultants, may be they need to hire more revenue enhancers. As in how to milk the most from your church goers. Also to show advertisements to them during church. Oh wait! That is already being done. Same with revenue enhancers too!
I guess I am behind the times now.
Creative coaches...in my day they were called "sales managers". I really wonder what is the worse sin: pouring money into these questionable edifices that are merely an occupation for the leaders or playing the lottery? If you won the lottery at least you would control the money and would be able to help those YOU deemed needed it. You would know where every dime goes. If you don't win, you STILL don't know where your money goes, what's the difference. Some preachers live like they have won the lottery. Organized religion, these days, is exactly that....an organization.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4:56. Education is one thing bible belief and discernment is quite another. The disciples were more spiritually educated individually than any ten of these mega speakers put together. They were also called to do the work not work for money, position, and adoration. They walked with the King.
ReplyDeleteI detest using this term, but it is apt here. They are getting very close to prostituting a Church here.
ReplyDeleteAll a Church needs is a Pastor who simply speaks The Word in Truth and Humility. Rest will be taken care of by The Holy Spirit. That is ... all about Church growth, church money and finances, members edification and spiritual growth. You do not need all the frills that go with entertainment. One can preach The Word in simple settings and The Spirit will move mightily. But one has to be truthful to The Word.
Guys like Mourillio put a dang dollar sign on everything they see. Guy like Mac follow suit. Mourillio has dollar signs in his eyes, Mac has stars in his eyes.
ReplyDeleteLet's see...first it was Logan Clark fired from the Exec Comm...now it is Hammond.
ReplyDeleteHas Hammond come out for or against the GCR?
In any event, NAMB is a boondoggle to begin with. We need to scrap it. We could scrap the entire SBC and God would still get His Work done by His REAL people. Not these pretenders with fat salaries.
"I detest using this term, but it is apt here. They are getting very close to prostituting a Church here."
ReplyDeleteWho do you think is the 'whore' in Revelation? The fake church.
As a SBC'er and they will tell you it is the 'Catholic' Church. Yes, them, too.
"Anyone could benefit from a spiritual mentor or discipler or "coach" -- if the coach is a person of spiritual maturity who encourages the one being coached into a life a greater godliness, love, and service"
ReplyDeleteBob Reccord is available...for a fee.
Two words that best describes our churchs on Sunday Mornings, "Its Showtime".
ReplyDeleteI've served in vocational Christian ministry for over 20 years and, sometimes, still need someone to coach me about the challenges I face. If I'm right, none of us has been where all of us are headed; a little help along the way isn't a bad thing--except I shouldn't be paid something like $300,000 annually if I need much coaching (cut that figure down to well under $100,000, pay the coach $10,000 and send him on his way, then put the rest of it into missions and evangelism).
ReplyDeleteOn saving seats: the one and only time I ever have (so far) attended a worship service at FBC-Dallas, OS Hawkins had become the senior pastor--but Dr. Criswell still was very present and involved. I arrived before the auditorium began to fill that morning after Sunday School. Being in the ministry myself, I like to sit near enough to the platform that the preacher can see the whites of my eyes, since he's preaching to me anyway! Fortunately, I hadn't sat in anyone else's seat that morning--but the young couple who sat in front of me did. As two or three older senior adult women can in from Sunday School, they found the couple in their seat or of someone else--in either case, they made it clear to the man and his wife and little child that they couldn't continue to sit there; so the family moved elsewhere in the auditorium. Later, at the end of the worship service, Dr. Criswell officiated over a "child dedication portion" of the service--and one of the families on the platform was the young couple and child who were made to move because they sat in someone else's seat--though they sat there to be close to the platform when that part of the service was to take place. I've always hoped the senior adult ladies felt badly about it. (OS Hawkins preached well that day--but, being FBC-Dallas, I guess I thought it'd be like Billy Graham; it wasn't, but it was good.)
"I've served in vocational Christian ministry for over 20 years and, sometimes, still need someone to coach me about the challenges I face. If I'm right, none of us has been where all of us are headed; a little help along the way isn't a bad thing--except I shouldn't be paid something like $300,000 annually if I need much coaching (cut that figure down to well under $100,000, pay the coach $10,000 and send him on his way, then put the rest of it into missions and evangelism)."
ReplyDeleteI wonder how much Paul charged Timothy and Titus?
Matt
I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to "coach" you, especially preachers.
ReplyDeleteA pastor, if he really is "God's man", needs to know how to lead his church and not depend on someone else's "creativity" no matter who that person is. Thats not right. He shouldn't have to depend on someone else to run his church right.
ReplyDelete1. Obviously, the Holy Spirit is capable of coaching alone--and via another believer;
ReplyDelete2. Everyone--pastors included--needs help sometimes; who doesn't realize that??? Some of that help can be paid for--who doesn't realize that????
3. Paul "charged" Timothy a lot (just not money or anything of value; lots of grammatical imperatives [commands] in his two letters to him; this--my #3--is meant to be funny, so smile already =-).
Everybody get real here, and lighten up. Anyone with a modicum of reading comprehension understands the intent of the WD's posting, and also understands what I'm talking about--and that both are correct. Come on, people; not everything about church or being a pastor is in the tank today--just some of it.
Tell someone about the Lord Jesus; make a positive, eternal difference!
I have no problem with our leaders being "coached". The argument that someone called by God doesn't need a coach is crazy! Jesus called his disciples to change the world...but he coached them every step of the way. I have been in full-time vocational ministry for over 20 years and I still look for others to be iron sharpening iron in my life...to coach me up in disciplines that I need to improve.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, I am thankful that a leader of one of our agencies wants to be the best he can be. There is no way that there is such a thing as a COMPLETE leader. At least Hammonds recognizes that and is attempting to be a better leader than he is today.
I would tend to think that the mega church pastors should be the ones doing the coaching with all of their experience. But then, just think of what they would create. More of themselves and I'm not sure we can handle that experience.
ReplyDeleteI would love to have the money these guys are paying their coaches. I guarantee you I could start a few new churches with that amount.
Is there not one that is spiritually mature who can mentor because God called them to that? Or God calls all mentors at rates in the tens of thousands?
ReplyDelete". Obviously, the Holy Spirit is capable of coaching alone--and via another believer;
ReplyDelete2. Everyone--pastors included--needs help sometimes; who doesn't realize that??? Some of that help can be paid for--who doesn't realize that????"
August 5, 2009 4:35 AM
Anon the problem lies in who's giving the help and the motive and mode of this so-called help.
The Apostle Paul in helping Timothy as you pointed out;charged him nothing and wrote to him that he knew the "Holy Scriptures" which were able to make him "wise"...
As a matter of fact Paul went on to say that the Scriptures were sufficent to make him complete and throughly furnished for all good works!!
But Paul also revealed in 2Tim.3:13 "that evil men and seducers shall grow worse and worse,deceiving and being deceived" and informed Timothy to continue in the things which he had learned and whom he learned them from!!!
Paul was a steadfast and sure source of Holy Spirit inspired teachings and instructions;But even in his day there were already evil deceptive men who had infiltrated the church and was spreading false teachings and information.
If the Apostle Paul was plagued by theses types of people in his day,how much more should we be alert 2,000 years later!!!
Forgive me please if I ignore your advice to lighten up;We are in the most dangerous of times[1Tim.3:1]!!!
Ephesians 4
ReplyDelete11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
There you have it, Apostles, are responsible for teaching the pastors. That is what an apostle was and is mentioned in the Bible by Paul.
Allen
Dog:
ReplyDeleteYou should check out some of the state baptist websites. Our state is promoting coaching as one of the services it offers.
But let me add that there are many, many young people coming out of seminary and many pastors who have been in ministry for years that do need help in certain areas. They are good at biblical exposition, but poor in other areas of leadership, and some training beyond more Bible classes might be helpful to them. Whether this is what the "coaching" is, I am not sure.
I would be interested if there is anyone on this blog who knows what this kind of coaching consists of.
I have never had "coaching", have never met a "coach" and don't know what the entire thing consists of.
I will add that Geoff Hammond is a very good man, served as a missionary in Latin America for several years.
NAMB has problems on its board and has for many years. I won't go into it any further than that.
There are some other people who competed for the NAMB job when Hammond got it, who didn't get it, and their supporters on the board (and other board members who want to have a friend come lead the board who might not have applied before) have been out for Hammond's head from day one. Hammond was basically told that on day one when he walked in the door.
I am glad for trustee oversight. Some of our agencies have spent millions of dollars in failed initiatives due to a lack of proper oversight and support.
But I can also see scenarios where trustees try to use their positions inappropriately.
I hope Hammond stays on at NAMB. I am fearful if he does not, we will just end up with an aging pastor with good connections who wants to jump from the pastorate into the SBC bureaucracy to finish out his 50 to 70 year old years of service. Sometimes that works out well. Sometimes it doesn't.
As far as combining NAMB with the IMB, I have not really studied that to see what benefit it would have. I am concerned it is just moving chairs around.
And I certainly don't want to do it if all we have is a personality conflict at the NAMB. That would be a bad reason for making big decisions like that. The SBC will probably end up spending thousands and thousands of dollars with a consulting firm (who will be run out of a big SBC church, or by the son of a prominent pastor or agency head in the SBC) to tell us stuff we already know. Anyone on here ever seen "Office Space"?
Maybe the SBC needs a "coach"?
Louis
"Ephesians 4
ReplyDelete11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
Sab the Bible also repetitively warns O.T.and N.T. that there would be false prophets,false teachers,Paul revealed to the Corinthian believers false Apostle and you can also assume there were also false evangelist,etc.
The Apostle Paul said test all things and hold on to that which is good[1Thess 5:21]!!!
The Apostle John wrote do not believe every spirit,but test the spirits to make sure they are from God[1John 4:1]!!!
We should have no problem with one believer helping another...
But we should also always keep the Biblical warnings in mind when being coached or taught by anyone!!!
What is the foundation from which they draw their advice? Is it Scripture or something else???
"Test the spirits" for many deceivers have gone out into the world[1John 4:1]!!!
You just can't trust everybody!!!
Christ had 12 disciples. Maybe a pastor isn't an island, maybe there are many parts to the body?
ReplyDeleteAs I read through this, and I understand I see things from a different perspective as many of you, but my immediate reaction as I read through these comments is "get over yourself." It's not all about you.
There's more to Sunday morning and coming to church than the words coming out of a pastor's mouth. To say otherwise is extremely arrogant.
I don't think it is a matter of whether or not coaching is needed. I think we all need input from outside ourselves in order to keep us on the narrow path that God has set for us. The Holy Spirit works through the people we confide in.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with "church coaches" is that these people and the people who use them are just hiding the "Good Ole Boy" network that allows them the pass around Church money to each other. I'll coach you for an exorbitant fee if you let me coach you for an exorbitant fee. At the end of the day, both parties have a lot of Church money in their own pockets. What a great setup! Can I get in on it !? Can I !? Huh! Can I?
Michael Buckingham said...
ReplyDeleteAugust 5, 2009 11:07 AM
________________________________
Thanks for giving your name - glad I don't know you, but certainly will remember your name as personally would never want to ever meet you or be in your circle of friends- talk about someone being arrogant and cocky as that you are!
I always enjoy the overflowing Christian love on this blog.
ReplyDeleteOne little note: please do not insult anyone's intelligence by comparing these "coaches" to the Apostle Paul and his relationship to Timothy. They bear nothing in common except that they are men.
Allen l0:l8: You said;"Apostles are responsible for teaching the pastors".
ReplyDelete(1) We don't have apostles today.
(2) I don't believe Maurilio qualifies as an apostle.
(3) Re: Sermon planning - That is the work of the Holy Spirit. And does not the seminary teach preachers how to plan a sermon. And where in the Bible does it say man must have a creative consultant?
(4) The pure and simple fact is man calls himself to preach in most cases. Therefore man will always fail. Other men capitalize on these failings, to make money.
(5) This is the largest failing....Man is constanly trying to replace the Holy Spirit. And thus, Will always fail. Just making money is NOT the mark of success.
If you are a pastor and need a coach you need to get out of the church as soon as possible. Apologize to God and your congregation and find employment somewhere else more fitting even in this downturn of the economy!!!
ReplyDeleteThis being a pastor is not an "on the job training position".
August 5, 2009 1:05 PM
ReplyDeleteI always enjoy the overflowing Christian love on this blog.
__________________________________
This blog cannot begin to be compared to the "overflowing Christian love" with the comments from leadership we read in the Florida Times Union.
My personal belief is that the majority of people who blog on this has a sincere love for their brothers & sisters in Christ.
It's not an isssue for me to read "objections" from those with different opinions, but some are penned with so much anger and hate their so called "Christian Love" really jumps out to readers!
Most churches have seasoned lay people (these are the ones that should be the deacons and teachers, committee chairs, etc.). A pastor should be able to talk with and pray with such seasoned lay people -- most of us know who in our church these are.
ReplyDeleteI have been close with two pastors and have spent time in their offices, their homes, and with them in my home, as well as an occasional lunch, breakfast or during visiting together at a hospital or home. We talked about their burden in ministry and how the laity could help. We talked about their plans for upcoming sermon series and how some things they had tried in previous sermons went well or otherwise. We talked about the needs of the congregation for specific topics in preaching or bible study.
I guess you could call that coaching!
BTW, in some associations, there is a senior, former pastor. Some of those might make good coaches and they are already in place, local, and on the payroll.
On disciples. Jesus had many more than 12 disciples. There were 70 or 72 sent out, which means there were 70 or 72 trusted followers of Jesus. We only have the 12 of the inner circle named specifically. We also know that there were women who were a part of the group that traveled with Jesus and were funding the ministry.
ReplyDeleteThe term apostle generally means those who saw the resurrected Christ and were commissioned by him. The Damascus Road experience allowed Paul to claim that title. Paul refers to a woman apostle, Junia (transgendered by the KJV translators).
The former pastor I was referring to in an earlier post, one that might be available and already on the payroll -- that's was used to be called the associational director of missions, and now usually the Regional Baptist Network (or Association) Director.
ReplyDeleteI believe in coaching. I have coached in various areas, i.e., work areas, sports and various games. However, I do not believe in anyone coaching another person especially in preparing their sermons or with pastors. Those that pastor need no coach, otherwise, they should not be in the ministry. This basic Bible 101 with the leading of the Holy Spirit and prayer. I do not recall either of the Lindsays or Vines or any before them having a coach and those men were quite sucessful in preaching the word. But, alas, the world has a need of coaches. We could certainly use some right now in the government sector.
ReplyDelete"Maybe the SBC needs a "coach"?"
ReplyDeleteYes, the real coach, the Holy Spirit, left long ago.
There's more to Sunday morning and coming to church than the words coming out of a pastor's mouth. To say otherwise is extremely arrogant.
ReplyDeleteAugust 5, 2009 11:07 AM
Then why is everything geared around their sermon? Seems to me, the pastor makes it all about himself. Maybe pastors do not have 1 Corin in their bibles. Most of what we do on Sunday is from tradition, not scripture.
One little note: please do not insult anyone's intelligence by comparing these "coaches" to the Apostle Paul and his relationship to Timothy. They bear nothing in common except that they are men.
ReplyDeleteAugust 5, 2009 1:05 PM
Hello, if you are speaking of my comment about how much Timothy or Titus paid Paul for 'coaching', I want to explain I was being sarcastic. We all know Paul 'coached' them at great cost to himself. That is my point. All this talk of 'coaches' is quite carnal for the Body of Christ. It only shows how far the SBC is from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that they would think this is normal practice.
Matt
Matt,
ReplyDeleteI was not speaking to your comments or intending to offend you in any way. I was just commenting that to call any of these modern day morons "coaches" in God's Kingdom is ludicrous. I'm not sure what we should call them but I'm sure there are some good Biblical names that fit them well.
Give it up Dude.
ReplyDeleteJesus: "I was hungry and you didn't feed me."
ReplyDeletePastors: Not enough money in the budget after I paid my wife and son and my coach. Your sheep just weren't giving enough for us to do much more than just keep our utilities on and increase our advertising budget.
"I was naked and you didn't clothe me."
Pastor: I gave 15% of my "salary" to the church and others. (Kept the land gift and book royalties, and benefits and preaching gigs too, hee hee, but I did technically give 15% of my "salary" so its not my fault.) And besides, it took over $100,000 for my offices. Not much left to clothe anyone after that.
Jesus: "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do the things I commanded you? Depart from me, you evildoer, I NEVER knew YOU!"
Pastor: "But I am God's man!"
Jesus: "If those days were not cut short, even the elect would be deceived. You deceive yourselves."
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteAll the below links are from The Wartburg Watch Blog:
Blogging On Churches Gone Wrong [August 6th, 2009]
We shall be dealing with this Prays Mills situation in-depth over the next week. In addition to revealing why Doug Pittman began blogging about Mike and Jarrod Everson, we will investigate what's going on with Mac Brunson and First Baptist Church in Jacksonville. Here, we will focus on how he misused law enforcement to expose Tom Rich who blogged about a serious situation at that church. Next, we will take a look at a scandal at Bellevue Baptist Church. As we round out our coverage of SBC "servant leaders", we'll take a look at Trinity Baptist Church in Memphis and its pastor, Chad Everson, who has ties to the Prays Mills situation.
Pastoral Accountability And Christian Blogs: A New Form Of Quality Assurance [August 5th, 2009].
I would venture to say that many pastors would enjoy reading The Wartburg Watch. It is well-written, and the discussion points are documented and referenced appropriately. Indeed, since the launching of this blog just a few months ago, there has been substantial positive feedback from the readership. One of the areas where The Wartburg Watch appears to have “struck a nerve” is spiritual abuse within churches. Based on the responses via the blog comments and e-mails, it would appear that the problem of spiritual abuse is widespread in congregations across the country.
Blogging: Countering Spiritual Abuse [August 5th, 2009].
Luther Didn't Follow Matthew 18 [August 3rd, 2009].
Our prospective pastor denied membership to us until we could reconcile with our previous pastor and receive his hearty recommendation that we were now “compliant” former members. When we asked for clarification from the pastor of the prospective church (who had just dropped this bombshell in a face-to-face meeting), we were told that he couldn’t elaborate due to pastor-to-pastor confidentiality. I asked this pastor why someone would just want to cause “trouble” for no reason. He sternly said that some people “just cause trouble.”
My husband is a busy professional, and I lead an interesting and full life. Why would we want to “just cause trouble?” Did we awaken one morning, perhaps bored and say, “Hey, let’s cause us a ruckus!”? There was a legitimate reason for the conflict at our former church, and the new pastor obviously didn't want to go there. It would be uncomfortable... Little did we know that our former pastor and the prospective pastor are good friends...
Luther: Courageous Reformer And Forgiven Sinner [July 31st, 2009].
Here I Stand [July 31st, 2009].
Isn't there something more interesting to talk about than constantly harping on Mac's salary (which was set and approved by a duly elected committee), his wife and son, and how much he gives or doesn't give? Some of this junk gets real old.
ReplyDeletePeople (and Southern Baptists in particular) have been harping on the pastor's salary since the beginning of time.
Find something new to complain about.
I guess a preacher is like a bottle of Bar B Q sauce you never tried. Boy you just know you got you some good sauce for them Ribs. After all It has a picture of a guy on the bottle that looks like he has been making Bar B Q for a 100 years. It also claims that Its made in Hickory Creek North Carolina, that's got to be good right? So you go sopping It on the ribs you paid top dollar for and what do you get? Ribs with ketchup! Everything was spent on the package and none was left for the product. When are we going to learn that our life is the only Bible that some people read?
ReplyDelete"Isn't there something more interesting to talk about than constantly harping on Mac's salary (which was set and approved by a duly elected committee), his wife and son, and how much he gives or doesn't give? Some of this junk gets real old."
ReplyDeleteThat a "Committee" approved it, makes it a deeper problem in your church.
Just make sure you keep giving more and more to support Mac's family lifestyle and you will be fine.
Keep on serving, brother. I am also a victim of several pastors, that because they are pastors, have no problem avoiding biblical approaches and just plain back bite. I too, am embarrassed by SBC tactics. SBC pastors just ivite me to leave. I finally heard the message and did so. My most recent pastor is so obsessed with ruining all my relationships, he has started working on one of my sons. There seems to be no end to his ranting. After both a clearly written document explaining his misunderstandings and an "amiable" one on one meeting (at my urging no less) he continues to rant his lies about me. (Talk about hurt!)
ReplyDeleteYou keep on blogging. We need to know that others in this denomination have had similar experiences. It does help heal the hurt.
(I could elaborate, but your audience already knows.)
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteNYT > Attack on Twitter Came in Two Waves.
The meltdown that left 45 million Twitter users unable to access the service on Thursday came in two waves and was directed at a single blogger who has voiced his support for the Republic of Georgia in that country’s continuing conflict with Russia.
Facebook’s chief security officer, Max Kelly, told CNet that the attack was aimed at a user known as Cyxymu, who had accounts on Facebook, Twitter, LiveJournal and other sites affected by Thursday’s cyberassault.
In an interview with The Guardian, the blogger said he believed the strike was an attempt to silence his criticism on the behavior of Russia in the conflict over the South Ossetia region in Georgia, which began a year ago on Friday.
How did a targeted attack against a single user manage to cripple Twitter for almost an entire day?
Nearly all mega churches are run by committees which are either appointed or elected by the church. FBC Jax has been run that way long before Mac came on the scene so its not his fault. Perhaps some of you should schedule lunches with the Personnel and Budget committees and talk to them in person.
ReplyDeleteSomehow I doubt you will have the courage to do so. You never have.
Committee run is about the only option for a church the size of FBC Jax. Can you just imagine the fighting that would go on in an open business meeting? When a church chooses their mode of operation then that is their business. If you don't like it, don't join that church. Period.
ReplyDeleteIf you have been the "victim" of several pastors and your current pastor is intent on destroying you then perhaps you might want to take a long hard look in a mirror.
ReplyDeleteUsually in these situations it is you who is at fault and not the pastor.
August 7, 2009 8:14 AM - is this your first time reading this blog? The pastor's salary and how much he gives is NOT the focus of this blog. Numerous comments have been made to clarify that. What makes you think this blog is about his salary and how little he gives? Did someone tell you that is all this blog is about? If so, they lied to you thinking you to be an ignorant, mindless, gullible sheep.
ReplyDelete"Committee run is about the only option for a church the size of FBC Jax. Can you just imagine the fighting that would go on in an open business meeting?"
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. The mega church model breeds such structures. Most of the members in a mega church would not show up for a business meeting. Many go there in the first place to be anonymous.
That is why the top down business model structure works so well for these 'organizations'.
" When a church chooses their mode of operation then that is their business. If you don't like it, don't join that church. Period."
Absolutely. And many are leaving them too. One has to wonder why so many 'mega' churches are now opting for the multi church campus model. Interesting study.
If you have been the "victim" of several pastors and your current pastor is intent on destroying you then perhaps you might want to take a long hard look in a mirror.
ReplyDeleteUsually in these situations it is you who is at fault and not the pastor.
August 7, 2009 4:22 PM
Of course. As we all know, if someone has a title of pastor they have special anointing that comes with the title. They are a special class of professional Christian. Unlike the rest of us who do not receive that special anointing. We all know that is in 1 Authoritarianisms 11:2
Were these guys all away at a conference or something? Nothing for a couple of days and then they all show up at once holding the pastor salary talking points memo. Hmmm.
ReplyDeleteWhat a lot of individuals are either forgetting or are ignorant of is the "priesthood of the believer". Having the tag of pastor does not make one "more spiritual" than anyone else. As a matter of fact the pastor is to be a servant not Lord of a group of believers. When a church group realizes the real meaning of "priesthood" then they will together pray, study, and truly worship...otherwise they will be just another typical group meeting by without true worship and loving each other regardless of their titles, position, and how much money they have in the bank.
ReplyDeleteReading up on the NAMB situation today in our state association newspaper, I was stunned to find that a trustee has absolutely no idea why some other trustees are going after Hammond. This trustee, a pastor in my state, said that only a few months ago the chairman was giving Hammond glowing reports and bragging on him. Now the chairman says he did not mention his concerns back then because he did not think it appropriate to do so? To the trustees?
ReplyDeleteBut now, all of a sudden, the chairman called a meeting of a few trustees who make up the exec committee to talk about ousting him.
The trustee in my state said he is calling for the entire trustee to meet and find out what on earth is going on.
This is how some with power operate. It is ridiculous. There is something bigger going on, mark my words. These people have no ethics at all.