Update: Around noon today (Tues), we received word via FBC Jax's attorney that the trespass warning for my wife is still in full force and effect. She is still banned from the premises - cannot attend the mission service without threat of arrest. No reason was given for the threat that she poses by her attendance at a missions appointment service.Readers: Wednesday night 9/16, FBC Jax is hosting the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) International Missions Board (IMB) Mission Appointment service. Scores of IMB missionaries will be commissioned to their places of service around the world in this service. This is a HUGE deal, and I commend Mac Brunson and FBC Jax in hosting such an important event for the first time at FBC Jax. According to the IMB website, there will be testimonies given by missionaries being appointed, and a sermon by IMB President Jerry Rankin.
This appointment service is open to the public, and is of great interest to SBC church members all over the country. Sister SBC churches here in Jacksonville will have people present.
However, I want my readers to know that I have contacted the church to get their answer on whether my wife is allowed to attend. As I have reported on this blog, my wife was wrongly issued a trespass warning by the church administration for the alleged "sin" of her "associating" with me, a member who was the author of a blog about FBC Jax. Yes, she has been banned from the church property under threat of arrest for the last 9 months for the phony charge of associating with me, her husband.
Immediately after FBC Jax messengers Blount and King dropped off my list of 16 sins last November at my doorstep, along with the trespass warnings - one for me and one for my wife, I wrote FBC Jax and asked them to rescind those immediately as they were totally unnecessary and coersive. But their response was they are "in full force and effect" until we would agree to meet with their discipline committee. We never came to terms for the conditions of the meeting, and we have since left FBC Jax, as my readers know.
Since that time, we have complied with the trespass warnings. As I have reported on this blog, my wife even sat in her car outside the church in December waiting for our kids to get out of their programs to comply with the trespass warnings - until we found a new church home.
But now my wife and I are both members in good standing at a sister SBC church in town. As many of you know, my wife is Hispanic, and a few weeks ago after hearing some reports from missionaries at our church of their work in South America, she has expressed some interest in eventually going on a short-term missions trip where her bilingual skills, and her very loving, caring spirit could be used to minister to people in need.
So I sent an email to John Blount, FBC Jax Church Administrator, last Thursday, kindly asking him if the trespass warnings were still in effect for Yvette and me - that we have a desire to come to the IMB missions conference.
I never received a response. Perhaps their lawyer has told them not to communicate with me at all because of the on-going lawsuit.
Fair enough.
I sent a follow-up to Blount yesterday (Monday), letting him know I would NOT attend, but that my wife still may want to attend, and to please let me know if she can, and if not, for what reason she cannot. I also let him know I contacted my lawyer to contact their lawyer in an attempt to get a response from FBC Jax on the trespass warnings.
Still, no response as of this writing.
Will FBC Jax finally try to do the right thing in this matter? Are they really going to keep my wife from attending a missions conference? Does Jerry Rankin and other IMB trustees who are in town this week know that their host church is banning a Hispanic woman who might be a future short-term missionary, from attending this service for no good reason? What must my wife do to have her trespass warning removed? Must she divorce me? Must she openly say she opposes this blog? Maybe if she confesses and repents of her "sin" of "associating with" her blogging husband?
Whatever the FBC Jax response is in this, I promise I will post it here on this blog site.
This appointment service is open to the public, and is of great interest to SBC church members all over the country. Sister SBC churches here in Jacksonville will have people present.
However, I want my readers to know that I have contacted the church to get their answer on whether my wife is allowed to attend. As I have reported on this blog, my wife was wrongly issued a trespass warning by the church administration for the alleged "sin" of her "associating" with me, a member who was the author of a blog about FBC Jax. Yes, she has been banned from the church property under threat of arrest for the last 9 months for the phony charge of associating with me, her husband.
Immediately after FBC Jax messengers Blount and King dropped off my list of 16 sins last November at my doorstep, along with the trespass warnings - one for me and one for my wife, I wrote FBC Jax and asked them to rescind those immediately as they were totally unnecessary and coersive. But their response was they are "in full force and effect" until we would agree to meet with their discipline committee. We never came to terms for the conditions of the meeting, and we have since left FBC Jax, as my readers know.
Since that time, we have complied with the trespass warnings. As I have reported on this blog, my wife even sat in her car outside the church in December waiting for our kids to get out of their programs to comply with the trespass warnings - until we found a new church home.
But now my wife and I are both members in good standing at a sister SBC church in town. As many of you know, my wife is Hispanic, and a few weeks ago after hearing some reports from missionaries at our church of their work in South America, she has expressed some interest in eventually going on a short-term missions trip where her bilingual skills, and her very loving, caring spirit could be used to minister to people in need.
So I sent an email to John Blount, FBC Jax Church Administrator, last Thursday, kindly asking him if the trespass warnings were still in effect for Yvette and me - that we have a desire to come to the IMB missions conference.
I never received a response. Perhaps their lawyer has told them not to communicate with me at all because of the on-going lawsuit.
Fair enough.
I sent a follow-up to Blount yesterday (Monday), letting him know I would NOT attend, but that my wife still may want to attend, and to please let me know if she can, and if not, for what reason she cannot. I also let him know I contacted my lawyer to contact their lawyer in an attempt to get a response from FBC Jax on the trespass warnings.
Still, no response as of this writing.
Will FBC Jax finally try to do the right thing in this matter? Are they really going to keep my wife from attending a missions conference? Does Jerry Rankin and other IMB trustees who are in town this week know that their host church is banning a Hispanic woman who might be a future short-term missionary, from attending this service for no good reason? What must my wife do to have her trespass warning removed? Must she divorce me? Must she openly say she opposes this blog? Maybe if she confesses and repents of her "sin" of "associating with" her blogging husband?
Whatever the FBC Jax response is in this, I promise I will post it here on this blog site.
Let's hope and pray they will do the right thing, the loving thing.
You mean to tell me that the actions of FBCJax are now affecting other churches?
ReplyDeletebut I thought that was impossible!
If they are hosting SBC events then there problems are everyone's problems in the SBC.
Too bad the SBC is just as evil and does not care for truth.
Maybe when the money dries up they will start caring about such things and even the pervert pastors they support and excuse.
anon - I believe Jerry Rankin DOES care, and if it were up to him, he would personally call Yvette and thank her for her support of missions and show her love and kindness. Unfortunately, it is not up to him. It is up to Detective Hinson and A.C. Soud and John Blount and Mac Brunson. No one else has any say in this, apparently. They are all yes men, back slapping, good ole boys who taught the little lady a lesson. Period. And these folks have demonstrated NO ability to act in a Christ like manner towards Mrs. Rich. Wonder what all the ladies being appointed missionaries tomorrow think about this treatment? They go to serve with their husbands, yet get no salary and no official position with the IMB. Yet Debbie Brunson is their trustee and gets a full salary for her "service." Nauseating stuff to think about.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you just starting yet another fight? Leave it alone and stay away. You know your motives are wrong and you're just looking for something to accuse FBC, Jax of doing.
ReplyDeleteShe isn't going to be invited and rightly so. If I were pastor and/or leadership, none of your family would be permitted on the church grounds.
Nauseating indeed! Just about everything w/ SBC's name attached is nauseating.
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:36 - apparently the FBC Jax folks agree with you. They will enforce the trespass warnings at the missions service, we have just been informed.
ReplyDeletewhy would they lift the trespass warnings when you haven't changed one iota about your behavior? just wondering. If you want your wife to go to church there, for ANYTHING, don't you think dropping this blog would be a good place to begin? You can wait for hell to freeze over before somebody is going to let you or your wife back in there. I don't say that cause I necessarily support either side. But you don't change, and they aren't changing, so why keep trying to go back?
ReplyDeletewhat did you expect?
ReplyDeleteLately I have held back from commenting here. But this ...
ReplyDeleteThey will enforce the trespass warnings at the missions service, we have just been informed.
It is sad to note that Fbc Jax is being run by thugs and goons.
Clearly Yvette and Tom are not a threat to anyone at Fbc Jax. They are also not a threat to disrupt any proceedings. I am sure if they were they could be easily handled by the "body guards", mostly police freelancing with ear pieces.
I would encourage Watchdog to pursue this matter in the courts. For a public entity that is using tax exemptions even though a Church has a fiduciary duty for all citizens of this country. They can not prohibit citizens from attending events if they are open to everyone. That is they can not discriminate based on prejudice. They can only be prohibited if they have a history and track record of committing violence or disruping church services.
After being a member for 20 years, this is the payback.
This is a dastardly act. I would encourage Watchdog to publicize this incident.
Yes Watchdog, if you were a terrorist or a rapist, then Fbc Jax would lovingly welcome you in the name of Our Lord. But for a pesky blogger who asks questions, the fate is far worse. Not even the name of Our Lord and the Love of a Christian is enough. Being a pesky and questioning blogger is worse than being a leper. May God have mercy on these thugs when they face Him.
ReplyDelete" I don't say that cause I necessarily support either side. But you don't change, and they aren't changing, so why keep trying to go back?"
ReplyDeleteSeptember 15, 2009 1:50 PM
Unfortunately Dr.Dog I agree with the Anon poster above!
Maybe your new Church can find a way to sponsor your wife.
I think; No I know it is better for you mentally and spiritually to stay away from FBCJ,"IT ONLY COME TO NO GOOD".
Dr.Dog you have too consider the type mind sets you are dealing with in Mac and the others.
These are the same Pharisaic type attiudes that the Lord Jesus dealt with and He could'nt change their minds could He???
Dr.Dog just continue your chosen course of actions and please stay away from that Church it can only lead to something bad!
Dr.Dog remember "WORSE AND WORSE"!!!
What did I expect?
ReplyDeleteOn one hand, I thought they would see this as an attempt to show some grace and civility to a former member they wronged by banning her from church for the "sin" of her husband...and that it is an event open to all SBC members, which my wife and I are.
On the other hand, this is logically consistent. They desire, for whatever reasons, to act in a manner consistent with their previous actions. There is a strong desire in all of us to not speak or behave in ways that are inconsistent with our words and actions in the past. And for them to allow her to come to this event, would send a signal that perhaps they were wrong in the first place for banning her from the property.
And they couldn't bring themselves to do it.
Sadly, I'm not surprised. I AM surprised that this doesn't spark anger on the part of clear-thinking FBC Jax members, especially the ladies, knowing a wife has been banned for the "sin" of her husband.
But that's the way it is. And trust me, we have no desire to "go back", and we are not "keep trying to go back" as the Anon says.
This is a SBC MISSIONS CONFERENCE. It absolutely is NOT an FBC Jax event. We give money to our church that in turn gives money to the IMB through the Cooperative Program, and we have a right to be in attendance at this event.
"They can not prohibit citizens from attending events if they are open to everyone. That is they can not discriminate based on prejudice. They can only be prohibited if they have a history and track record of committing violence or disruping church services."
ReplyDeleteThis is not correct. Churches are exempt from such laws. They can exclude anyone. Churches are exempt from discrimination laws both for members and employees.
It is one reason why they should be very circumspect in how they use these priviledges. Not to mention their Christian witness to the world around them. They are only inviting the government to take such exemptions away and then their worst fears will be realized.
Churches are often their own worst enemies. And my guess is that their tax exemptions are not far behind. One cannot expect to use the law for spiritual purposes then act like thugs and expect to keep such priviledges indefinitely. Folks are catching on that these tax exemptions benefit a few and many are paying for it.
Matt
You can publicize it all you want but I think you can see that most people agree with FBC, Jax.
ReplyDeleteIts time to give it a rest...
And by the way, a church can decide who they are going to permit in their services.
Go! If you feel this strong, Go.
ReplyDeleteWhat if Ms Parks had of moved to the back of the bus? and what if Paul Revere had not of warned about the British, and what if Ester had not exposed the Kings?
just a few examples....
Take a stand and prepare for the results, but GO if that is what you feel is within GODS will.
No one should tell you you can not come to a church function, NO ONE!
"You can publicize it all you want but I think you can see that most people agree with FBC,Jax."
ReplyDeleteSeptember 15, 2009 2:11 PM
Anon I personally don't agree with practically anything that Mac and FBCJ have done and are doing!!!
I'm just concerned about the well being of Dr.Dog and his family.
And when one is dealing with Pharisees one has to be extremely,extremely careful!!!
It is not surprising at all...If they didn't let Mrs. Rich in when her daughter sang a solo, I wasn't surprised at all that they wouldn't let her come in for a missions conference. Very SAD day at FBC...
ReplyDelete"Go! If you feel this strong, Go."
ReplyDeleteI strongly disagree with Dr.Whoever.
Dr.Dog take Pauls advice and "Come out from among them saith the Lord"!!!
If God is going to send Mrs Dr.Dog on a mission then the gates of Hell will not be able to stop her from going!!!
Let God get all the glory because you can believe that if Mac has anything to do with sending her he'll take it!!!
I stand corrected by Matt that Churches do indeed have the right to bar certain people from their services.
ReplyDeleteBut what does this say about being a Christian? Even Dr. Tom Ascol who advocates Church Discipline, clearly states that a Church should not bar anyone from attending services. This is to listen to Gospel of Our Lord. Even members who are excommunicated.
Sad to note that a Church would welcome sinners to hear the Gospel, but one sin is not tolerated. The sin of questioning those in authority. What a sham!
I sincerely pray for The Holy Spirit to convict everyone involved in this matter (yes, including me!).
TP - its about maintaining consistency with their previous words and actions.
ReplyDeleteThey banned me, supposedly, because they thought me to be a threat.
Mac declared me to be a psycho.
How could they then relieve the trespass warnings against me or my wife? It would raise questions they don't want to answer, as it would demonstrate inconsistency with their previous words and actions.
"When all else fails, maintain consistency" (Mac 3:16)
The blog continues to be useful to all those who read it in that it shows the ongoing un-Christian behaviour of the leadership. Even if you honestly believe Tom and Yvette deserve to be treated unjustly because of Tom's blog, you have to admit that your leadership is not acting in a Christlike manner.
ReplyDeleteReaders - I don't care if FBC Jax bans Tom from their services. But this is NOT an FBC Jax service. This is an IMB event. Open to the public and per their website, everyone is invited to be encouraged by the testimonies and challenged by the message of Dr. Rankin. So FBC Jax has no business dragging their issues with Tom into this IMB appointment service.
ReplyDeleteAll Southern Baptists should be outraged by this!
Again - what would Jesus say and do? The opposite of what Soud, Brunson and their legal team just said. NO! to Mrs. Rich. Why? To teach you a lesson that you just can't stay married to a blogger who disagrees with the big boys downtown or you will pay a high price, sister. Amen? Amen!
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Tom's resolve to keep blogging and keep litigating will be even stronger now?
And who is acting more in line with a stubborn, sociopath? Those who doggedly enforce trespass warnings, or Mr. Rich?
If we had someone in our church like Tom Rich and he had a blog like Tom's, then we would not permit Tom nor anyone in his family into our church facilities. End of discussion.
ReplyDeleteFBC Jax must consider their law suit defense. It would hurt their case.
ReplyDeleteAllen
"If we had someone in our church like Tom Rich and he had a blog like Tom's, then we would not permit Tom nor anyone in his family into our church facilities. End of discussion."
ReplyDeleteSeptember 15, 2009 2:54 PM
Key word in the above Anon blog is "OUR CHURCH"!!!
This is the reason Dr.Dog must stay away from FBCJ.
The attitude is identical too esus opponents the Pharisees!!!
Jesus once walked out of the Temple in Matt.23 and quoted that He "WAS LEAVING TO THEM THEIR HOUSE"...emphasis on "THEIR"!!!
Whether one may wan't to believe it are not,it does'nt matter,FBCJ it is no longer God's House it belongs to Mac and the members!!!
Pastor Rod,
ReplyDeleteYou are just playing a semantics game and trying to look spiritual. You know exactly what I mean when I say that a church can decide who gets to come into THEIR church. Grow up.
Well, how did they contact you? Two messengers to your door again? Email? Did they respond to you or your attorney?
ReplyDeleteTheir attorney told my attorney. That's how things work down here when we decide who gets to go to the IMB Missions Conference and who doesn't.
ReplyDeleteThis is my first time reading your sad, pitiful blog. I think that if I open the dictionary to 'bitterness' there your blog would be. You point the finger at FBC Jax and at Pastor Brunson, but haven't you noticed that you have become terribly bitter and angry. IF they have done wrong, forgive them. Move on. Why, why would you just keep on spouting all of this stuff. We get it. You don't like them or what they do. GET OVER IT.
ReplyDeleteI don't live in Jax. I am not a member of FBC Jax. I live in Memphis, TN and we have a pretty good size church here too. You may have heard of it, Bellevue Baptist Church. Well, Bellevue has a little hater-blogger of it's own. The guys that run it claim that they are the voice crying out in the wilderness and that they are the only ones standing up for truth and righteousness. If I didn't know any better I would think that you write both of these blogs. It has the same "poor us, they are so bad" attitude that you have. Here is some news for you, THERE ARE OTHER CHURCHES. Find one, go be a part of it, and stop with all this shamelessness.
What do you think that you are accomplishing for the eternal kingdom of Christ? Do you think that you are justified to act the way that you are acting. Do you believe that the Lord Jesus looks down on your blog and rejoices. I would honestly like you to answer that. Do you feel like this blog brings Him glory?
I see that you monitor these comments, so I will be surprised if you even allow this to be posted. But, hear my heart on this. I don't think you are a terrible person because of this blog. If you have surrendered your life to Jesus as the Lord of your life, then you and I are brothers in Christ. As a brother in Christ, who does not know you, I am admonishing you to step back and take a look at what you are doing. Sure, this blog may point out all of FBC Jax and Pastor Brunson's shortcomings, but does it honor Christ? Don't continue this. Please, stop.
If you would like to talk to me further about my opinions, my email is JacobCloer@yahoo.com. If you would like to talk by phone, email me and I will send my phone number.
What do you think that you are accomplishing for the eternal kingdom of Christ? Do you think that you are justified to act the way that you are acting. Do you believe that the Lord Jesus looks down on your blog and rejoices. I would honestly like you to answer that. Do you feel like this blog brings Him glory?.
ReplyDeleteJacob Cloer:
Do you think what Fbc Jax Leadership is doing or has done is bringing Him glory? Try asking these questions on official Fbc Jax blogs. They would not even let you comment on their blogs.
Jacob - thank you for your comments, and care and concern for me. You're welcome any time.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm your brother in Christ.
But may I say, Jacob, you sound bitter that I blog, and that there is a blogger about your church. Get over it. Its OK. God is in control. God doesn't need you to point out my shortcomings in this blog any more than you think God doesn't need me to point out shortcomings of FBC Jax.
No, I am not bitter. Persistent, yes. Not bitter. Ask my wife. Ask my kids. God is in control, and has guided us.
Yes, there are other churches. We found one. We are very happy there.
And I have forgiven these men. I don't think they are the devil, as they believe me to be. But neither am I going to just go away, I will continue to blog as I see fit. I have more to say, and I will say it, and I believe God will be glorified in it all.
Thanks for the offer to talk to you on the phone, but I think I'll pass.
"Pastor Rod,
ReplyDeleteYou are just playing a semantics game and trying to look spiritual. You know exactly what I mean when I say that a church can decide who gets to come into THEIR church. Grow up."
September 15, 2009 3:21 PM
Anon I stand by my statement whether you believe me to be attempting to sound spiritual or not!
People begin to think that the Church belongs to them!!!
FBCJ has become religious not loving under it's new leadership!!!
If we had someone in our church like Tom Rich and he had a blog like Tom's, then we would not permit Tom nor anyone in his family into our church facilities. End of discussion.
ReplyDelete__________________________________
I don't doubt this. Sad but true. And no shame that you feel this way. How far have we fallen? And the "end of discussion" part of your post just shows even more how difficult it is to ever get through to these type of people. Makes me embarrassed at times to call myself a Christian if these are how Christians think and act. But I won't give up. Not all think like you. Read your Bible. There is a lot in there about kindness, humility, and love. Peace.
I'm beginning to think that most Christians are a bunch of non-loving, judgmental, hypocritical jerks. This explains why they love Mac so much. He is chief.
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected by Matt that Churches do indeed have the right to bar certain people from their services.
ReplyDeleteBut what does this say about being a Christian? Even Dr. Tom Ascol who advocates Church Discipline, clearly states that a Church should not bar anyone from attending services. This is to listen to Gospel of Our Lord. Even members who are excommunicated.
Sad to note that a Church would welcome sinners to hear the Gospel, but one sin is not tolerated. The sin of questioning those in authority. What a sham!
I sincerely pray for The Holy Spirit to convict everyone involved in this matter (yes, including me!).
September 15, 2009 2:32 PM
Thy Peace,
You are assuming it is a "church". The ekklesia. The Body of Christ where the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you.
Millions make that mistake. You are not alone.
1 Corin 12
No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
All the clues of what makes up a true Body of Christ are in the Word. We just have to take it seriously and give up our fleshly desire for preeminance, authority and power.
The true Body is made up of lowly, humble, loving servants.
Blessings brother,
Matt
Dear Jacob of Memphis,
ReplyDeleteAs a member of First Baptist Church may I just reply that obviously, the administration does not understand the book of Proverbs or Redemption or Forgiveness or Grace or Mercy.
When it comes to allowing the bann to be lifted for Mrs. Rich to walk into MY CHURCH that is open to the public God gave our administration the opportunity to show unconditional loving-kindness and this administration scoffed at God’s opportunity. What a bunch of "cowards" they are!
I would also like to add a 2nd reply to your "spiritual" comments - this is our "business" in Jacksonville, Florida and we do not need any advice, thank you!
"Well, Bellevue has a little hater-blogger of it's own.
ReplyDeleteNote they take a page from the liberal playbook. If you disagree publicly...you are hateful.
Hmmm. We are seeing the Obama admin use the same tactic about the health care debate.
Disagree with the big celebrities and you are hateful.
As a member of the Methodist church, I feel the Southern Baptist Church might as well be on another planet so different are its practices. We don't ban or disfellowship anyone unless they do not attend a service or support the church for a period of three years. So please forgive my ignorance in asking this question -- how does FBC of Jax enforce their trespass rules? I would be enraged if they called the police to remove a law abiding person from their premises. The police have other responsibilities, for goodness sake.
ReplyDeleteSue again. I realized my earlier post was misleading. We do not ban anyone, for any reason. All are welcome in our church. We even welcome those from other denomination to take communion with us. We do remove people who do not attend an event or provide a contribution for a period of three years, but they are welcome to return to full membership at any time.
ReplyDeleteWhat? Clean up the rolls! What a novel idea. :)
ReplyDeleteThat might reduce the SBC from "16 million" to "6 million" members. We would not want that to happen. Honesty is not the best policy in the case of rolls.
As a member of FBCJ and long time reader of the Bellevue blog, I can attest to the fact that the writer is neither bitter nor looking for pity. What is clearly evident is spiritual discernment and concern for SBC churches where many of us have worshipped and given for so long, but no longer can in good conscience.
ReplyDeleteWhen you call the church "your church" that says it all. You have done like the schools and taken God out. The church is his, I see no reason Mrs.Rich should not be allowed in the service.
ReplyDeleteI think that FBC is communcating with you.
ReplyDeleteFirst, they realize that any response would get twisted and distorted. Besides, the leadership has already communicated the conditions upon which you and your wife may return.... meet with the discipline committee and take your medicine. It is wise for them not to respond or to change their position.
The trespass warning is in effect and, apparently, neither of you are welcome.
Hope that this helps you to sort things out.
Thank you Jacob Cloer for your comments. I am in full agreement with you. Move on Tommy boy.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:41 - you just don't get it, do you? I'm not a member anymore. I don't answer to their committee. And I don't want to come back to their church. We asked if we could come to the IMB mission service. We have not interest in "coming back" to FBC Jax.
ReplyDeleteAnd Anon 9:09 - its jerks like you that remind me my blog is just getting started.
"You can publicize it all you want but I think you can see that most people agree with FBC,Jax."
ReplyDelete________________
You are incorrect. Most people do not agree with FBCJ. Many of us that do not agree are people sitting right beside you in the services. Some of us have ceased sitting next to you in services in search of a new venue to worship and give.
I just don't care what these churches do anymore. No matter what happens nothing will really change. It's like a soap opera, drama, drama, drama, and none of it amounts to much. So many of These churches once were mighty forces for the Lord. Their purpose was to reach the lost for Jesus, and to grow the members in Grace. But this is long past. Most have lost their purpose. There isn't much to them anymore. At least not much worthwhile. Now they are just like any other organization. Many are agenda driven. It's really not important enough to worry about anymore. So who cares what they do. It's sad, but that's the way it is. And evidently the way they want it. If people don't see sin in themselves, only in others, there isn't much hope. God has most likely removed His candlestick from many chruches today. And if He isn't there why should I be. I know the Bible says "where two or three are gathered in my name,there I will be also." The point is, the verse says "gathered in My name". God will take care of all of this on Judgement Day. This is why we are warned about the church of Laodicea in the latter days. We are there folks. You churches and pastors (the remnant) that are still faithful...God bless you. In the meantime, do all you can to witness to others and to study His word. And stay in His Will. Keep your eyes on JESUS. Not everthing done for the Lord, is in a church.
ReplyDeleteThere is a really easy way to resolve the issue of Mrs. Rich not being permitted to attend the IMB conference at FBC JAX: a group of women could come by in a eight passenger mini-van and escort her to the meeting. If she goes to jail, they go with her. Many members of FBC have posted that they support Tom and Yvette. Now it is time to step-up to the plate. I am confident there are at least seven independently minded women in that congregation.
ReplyDeleteOkay,
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that you are either trying to reconcile, somehow, or coming to grips with the notion that this is over. If you cannot reconcile then just move on and leave FBC Jax in peace. Even if FBC broke down and gave you a full apology, there could never exist a healthy productive relationship. FBC is never going to back down, you are not welcome, they are not going to meet your terms, and it would take a major restructuring of personnel and by laws for you to come onto the property. You cannot win.
You know that if you show up on the property you will get escorted away and the incident will get reported to authorities.
You should really consider giving up and try to rebuild your credibility.
I am a little concerned about the "jerks" comment. That comment is really uncharacteristic of you and you might consider retracting that one.
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteGrace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > Is There a Culture Among Southern Baptists That Goes Beyond Biblical Christianity?.
Sadly, the simplicity of life in Christ and our mutual acceptance of the gospel of God's grace seem to have been superceded by the desire of some in the SBC to demand conformity on all things non-essential to the Christian faith. The polarization resulting from recent attempts to disqualify and disassociate from Southern Baptists who don't see eye to eye on eschatology, ecclesiology, spiritual gifts, soteriological minutiae, etc... causes me to wonder if our Southern Baptist belief system is beginning the slow descent into a closer resemblance to the pecular religious church dogmas of Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other cults that major on all things religious and minor on Jesus Christ and His work for sinners than to the New Testament. When we care more that people who affiliate with us look like us, talk like us, think like us, act like us, believe like us, etc..., then we've taken our focus off Christ and put it on our man-made system of religious performance. I do not wish to look like a Southern Baptist. I wish every Southern Baptist would mirror Christ in life and attitude.
Excellent post by The Wartburg Watch:
ReplyDeleteI’M CONFUSED...WAIT, MAYBE I’M NOT.
The SBC has created a big headache. What happens when the inevitable occurs? A “second class citizen” becomes convicted by the Holy Spirit that his/her pastor is wrong. This is inevitable because, believe it or not, pastors are sinners!!! I believe that this is the core problem within the church today. The dissonance has been solved by using rationalization that will not stand up to close scrutiny. Therefore, many SBC believers will become uncomfortable as they attempt to deal with this. Eventually, conflict will arise.
How should a pastor resolve the dissonance? Well, that part is a bit messy. It means spending time with the priesthood which means giving up something else like nice conventions, speaking cruises, etc. It means the pastor admitting, from time to time, that he is wrong. Yet it is in the mess that the real work of Jesus occurs. When a pastor states we must be unified, this assumes that unity is already present. However, due to the rationalization that the SBC uses to “harmonize” the problem, there really is no unity at the core. Yet the pastor is determined to pretend that peace exists in his church. If he doesn’t, he will be forced to deal with the underlying dissonance and that is extremely threatening to his position.
Yet, growth, change, and love blossoms in the presence of conflict as we treat one another as equal in the sight of God. This means listening to the words of the “second class citizens” who now achieve first class status because there is recognition of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in ALL believers.
"Matt" - would you be so kind as to email me privately?
ReplyDeleteChurches are like "old maids" with faded ball gowns. They missed their chance at happiness so they do "good works" in the community and smile alot trying to look happy without fufilling their calling. Churches have lost their calling to do the Lords work and have substituted WORKS for any real attempt to serve Him or serve the people. Churches are "busy" doing nothing. They produce only sour fruit = big money, big budgets and big EGOS. You can observe these "busy bees" in everday life, most don't appear happy. Most everything they do is ordained by MAN and his many committes, and they know it. Works done in the flesh are no substitute for humble people INCLUDING PREACHERS, committed to doing GODS WILL. Watch the fruit. What are they producing? More just like them, more busy with throwing people out of church, than bringing them in. Busy getting rid of those that oppose their man made agenda, than leading the lost to SALVATION through JESUS CHRIST. They should be looking to the Lord for HIS agenda. You can have all of the "mission conferences, pastors conferences, and back slapping get togethers you want, but until you get humble before the Lord and say "NOT MY WILL BUT THINE, LORD", your just "old maids and busy bees. As the old bard, Shakespear said, "Much ado about nothing".
ReplyDelete" Works done in the flesh are no substitute for humble people INCLUDING PREACHERS, committed to doing GODS WILL. Watch the fruit. What are they producing?"
ReplyDelete" Busy getting rid of those that oppose their man made agenda, than leading the lost to SALVATION through JESUS CHRIST. They should be looking to the Lord for HIS agenda. You can have all of the "mission conferences, pastors conferences, and back slapping get togethers you want, but until you get humble before the Lord and say "NOT MY WILL BUT THINE, LORD", your just "old maids and busy bees. As the old bard, Shakespear said, "Much ado about nothing".
September 16, 2009 8:15 AM
Anon I agree with you whole-heartedly.Great post!!!
Well said Anon 8:15
ReplyDelete"Watch the fruit. What are they producing? More just like them, more busy with throwing people out of church, than bringing them in"
________________________________
Truth Is:
Actually people are leaving on their own (they are not asking for letter approval) and some of the ones that are staying are redistributing the monies to other organizations other than to the Bank of First Baptist Church.
The accountant (and executive staff) have access to giving records - they have the names where they see giving has dropped.
Of course, they would deny that they know nothing about who gives what. Are you kidding me?
Like the "Acorn Scandel" . . .this story is going to continue to get hotter and hotter, thanks to the leadership denying a woman who has a "spotless testimony" to come on the grounds of First Baptist.
Mrs. Rich did nothing wrong and did not serve this "backlash" from the administration - their true character has been unveiled to the community of Jacksonille. Sad!
Jim, I agree with your comment: a group of women could come by in a eight passenger mini-van and escort her to the meeting. If she goes to jail, they go with her.
ReplyDeleteExcept for this -- what secular law is she breaking by attending an event at her former church. I would be exceedingly upset as a taxpayer of Jacksonville if public safety officers were taken away from their duty to protect the citizens in order to arrest someone peacefully attending an event at a church. Isn't this a violation of the separation of church and state?
"Mrs. Rich did nothing wrong and did not serve this "backlash" from the administration - their true character has been unveiled to the community of Jacksonille. Sad!"
ReplyDeleteSeptember 16, 2009 9:31 AM
Anon I'll go as far as saying also that Dr.Dog did nothing wrong either in bringing to light things happening at FBCJ!!!
The problem with many preachers today is narcissim. People wanting to curry favor with THE PREACHER (why I don't know), constantly tell the preacher how wonderful he is. They fawn over him. They tell him he is "ordained of God", and therefore, is a cut or two above us mere mortals. Sometimes this "fawning" spreads to the family members, who by virtue of family association become "annointed" in some strange way also. Which leads to more fawning and "giving place" to.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with all of this "false facade" is, the man made importance takes on a life of it's on. The annointed's start BELIEVING this stuff. They start believing they are "special" and therefore merit the "royal treatment" they receive. When this happens they become more spiritually useless and spiritually NEEDY than anyone they might preach to. Phony is as phony does. Truly a case of the "blind leading the blind".
This "hero worship of the pastor does them no favor. Wise is the preacher that KNOWS he needs the Lord as much if not more than the "average person". If they are REAL they need massive amounts of help and direction from the Lord. So many lost souls to witness to and so little time to do it. They need to get off the "throne" and put Jesus back in His rightful place and serve HIM. HUMILITY, HUMILITY, HUMILITY. We are nothing, Jesus is ALL.
Narcissim: self love, excessive interest in one's own appearance, comfort, importance, abilities, etc. (Webster dictionary).
To: 09/16, 8:15 AM -
ReplyDeleteGreat assessment. I agree. Also add to that, that when there is real trouble in the church,
remember to always start some grand building program to distract from the problems and create a faux sense of unity.
In addition, here is an excellent blog post that may be slightly off-topic but I think many will enjoy reading, esp. those completely put off by the Mega:
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor187.htm
Maybe the greatness of Thy Peace can help a sister out with some hyper linkage hookup. That stuff is too hard for me. Sorry guys.
"This "hero worship of the pastor does them no favor. Wise is the preacher that KNOWS he needs the Lord as much if not more than the "average person". If they are REAL they need massive amounts of help and direction from the Lord. So many lost souls to witness to and so little time to do it. They need to get off the "throne" and put Jesus back in His rightful place and serve HIM. HUMILITY, HUMILITY, HUMILITY. We are nothing, Jesus is ALL.
ReplyDeleteNarcissim: self love, excessive interest in one's own appearance, comfort, importance, abilities, etc. (Webster dictionary)."
September 16, 2009 9:54 AM
Preach Anon and tell it like it is;
Man you are on fire;;"AMEN"!!!!!!
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! No matter which side of the isle that you are on, neither Tom of FBC or in charge of any decisions, per se. Since this is an ongoing case in the courts, the attorneys are in charge and any prudent defendant would listen to their attorney.
ReplyDeleteNeither party should do anything that is not authorized by their attorney. That is what we get paid to do is protect our clients interest.
Once things are in the courts on the attorneys talk to each other. That is the way that it is and has always been.
Even if Tom and his family wanted to attend his attorney might not want them to as it might affect their case. The same is true with FBCJ. The leadership might be totally open to allowing them to come onto FBCJ's private property but FBCJ's attorney might think allowing this would hurt the case.
In summary, everyone needs to remember that you can only blame the attorneys and not the parties involved in the case; rightfully or wrongfully.
Sincerely,
T
p.s. I for one would have not problem with their attendance to this or any other special event, but there again I am not the attorney of record
NewsWithViews > IS CHRISTIANITY ALL ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS - By Paul Proctor.
ReplyDeleteThy Peace,
ReplyDeleteThank you brother!
I can't stand Lie Perveyor and I wish he would go away BUT UNBELIEVABLY I actually agree with his above post. Scary, huh?
ReplyDeleteWell I think we can assume that the Discipline Committee is not going to deal with adulterers.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what situation may have lead to the person's marital break up but there is someone on the payroll who has been divorced.
The "fire" Brother Rod comes from seeing a church that one has served in and loved (when it was real) turned into a shadow of itself. As if a horrible cancer has sucked the spiritual life out of it. Spiritually dead men walking around spiritually dead churches doing nothing of consequence that benefits only their warped sense of self importance. The most painful thing, is to see Jesus set aside as an afterthought. Only used and mentioned enough to "sound like", it's a church. Lip service, if you will. We true believers know when we hear sincerity from the pulpit and when it's manufactured. It's called spiritual discernment. And many of us have had the years of experience and the discernment to tell the true from the false. We must get back to realizing WHO JESUS IS!!! JESUS IS THE PERFECT, SON OF GOD WHO DIED IN OUR PLACE. THIS JESUS WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, died for us, who have committed all of them. All humanity is guilty. Time for lost souls is very short. But man will have an eternity to regret. May God forgive us all for letting Jesus down. By Grace are ye Saved!!!
ReplyDeleteTruth Purveyor - Nicely stated. I will agree with all of your statements except for the part where you claim that "everyone needs to remember that you can only blame the attorneys and not the parties involved in the case." It is quite common for one or both sides (the parties themselves) of a lawsuit to compromise their positions and settle the claims. They merely need advise their lawyers of their desire to do this and the conflict can be resolved. There is no reason that FBC leadership can't decide to begin treating this couple with love and respect, despite the fact they are being sued by them. What a testimony that would have been. On the other hand, there is nothing that stops Tom and Yvette for trying to extend an olive branch of some sort during this process. Can't God intervene in a case such as this, and guide the participants? Or do we use the excuse that it is all in the attorney's hands now?
ReplyDeleteDespite your views, I still blame the participants. Judge Soud knows how to get this resolved without a trial if he wanted to. I believe the opposite of your view is what is true. The lawyers (and insurance reps) may be advising the church on how to settle, but Soud is determined to "aggressively confront" this "sin against the church." I blame the proud, arrogant, unloving, litigants in this situation.
If I were the church, and I wanted the blogging to stop, and the lawsuits to get dropped, I would be interested in discussing matters with Mr. Rich.
So, no. I don't blame the lawyers.
"Give it a rest," "Stop the blogging," "Go away," "Move on," "Give up"
ReplyDeleteThey don't stop trying to prevent light from getting in, do they? These "hater-bloggers" are not "hater-bloggers." They love you enough not to let you sink into the morrass of deception and self-deception without a chance.
Just about every blog post Watchdog has published highlights a problem with corruption or spiritual abuse in the church. You can cover up an infection if you want to. If you do, it will only fester and eventually smell. This church has gotten to the gangrene stage. Treating infection requires exposure. You Baptists should be grateful that SOMEONE is exposing this stuff. This church is putrid. Maggots have eaten through the soft tissue. It should have been elders and officials of the church exposing and dealing with the corruption and abuse long ago. Be grateful for Watchdog. He's doing you all a favor.
Why does your wife need to attend the conference? What could these people that you have been so critical of actually offer her? Why can't she just sign up for a trip to South America on her own? There are several venues for her to choose from from. You seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth when you degrade people and then ask them to accept you as if nothing has happened. Actions have consequences...you should accept yours.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible doesn't say anything about saying negative things about the preachers and teachers of Gods word. Not to mention that we live in a free country. Its real simple, He has a right to blog about his feelings, whether they are right or wrong. You may not agree, but at least get out of your emotions and think rationally like human beings. This blog will most likely not end, so get over it. I personally know for a fact that 90% of what Tom says is true
ReplyDelete" The "fire" Brother Rod comes from seeing a church that one has served in and loved (when it was real) turned into a shadow of itself. As if a horrible cancer has sucked the spiritual life out of it. Spiritually dead men walking around spiritually dead churches doing nothing of consequence that benefits only their warped sense of self importance. The most painful thing, is to see Jesus set aside as an afterthought. Only used and mentioned enough to "sound like", it's a church. Lip service, if you will."
ReplyDeleteSeptember 16, 2009 11:46 AM
I know exactly what you mean!!!
I sat under two men at two churches who appeared on the surface to honor God:
But as you blogged were only giving lip service to serving Christ!
In these two men I saw a greed for money and power.
No concern for Christ or the people,just for prominence,power and money!
Anon these two men almost cause me to give up on Christ and return to life before Christ!
But thanks to the providence of the Lord,He gave me a great wife who decided rather than giving up,let's start our own ministry in our home.
It grew to where now we have a small building and a group of faithful people who are truly attempting to be living sacrifices for Christ!
But you know something Anon I see in Brunson many of the same tactics and characteristics that I saw in those two pastor's that I served under."STRANGE HUH"!!!!!!!
May Christ bless you my Brother and keep blogging your thoughts!!!
The more I read this blog and the posts the more I am amazed at the deep spiritual discernment of many of you. You have the ability to discern things even the Spirit of God cannot see and then you are even able to discern motives behind actions.
ReplyDeleteI wish I was as spiritual as many of you...
I am however glad that none of you are members of our church.
Jacob Cloer follows a pattern that is a prime example of how Mega Churches continue to survive. They want us to "Get Over It" ..... "Move On". But, what they really mean if for us to start ignoring the abuses, stop questioning how the money is spent, and stop trying to limit what the pastor takes for himself. They want us to tell ourselves that it is none of our business. Just keep forking over the money. We shall NOT DARE! question anything. But, God does not ask us to stick our heads in the sand and follow blindly. We are supposed to be discerning and there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking questions or raising concerns. The problem is not with us and we should NOT Move on. Let the ABUSERS answer the questions and address the CONCERNS!. And only when the concerns are addressed and the abuses STOPPED, THEN we can all move on and get over it.
ReplyDeleteDid any of you people see that church security has handcuffs and Tasers now? I'd hate for Yvette to get Tasered by church security.
ReplyDeleteWELL SAID ANON 12:06
ReplyDeleteDespite your views, I still blame the participants. Judge Soud knows how to get this resolved without a trial if he wanted to. I believe the opposite of your view is what is true. The lawyers (and insurance reps) may be advising the church on how to settle, but Soud is determined to "aggressively confront" this "sin against the church." I blame the proud, arrogant, unloving, litigants in this situation."
WELL SAID ANON 11:40
Well I think we can assume that the Discipline Committee is not going to deal with adulterers.
Not sure what situation may have lead to the person's marital break up but there is someone on the payroll who has been divorced.
###############################
First Baptist Church accepts "divorcee's" as deacons, teachers, committee members, as well as substitute choir dirctors, per example when Rodney Brooks needed a replacement to lead the choir for the Pastors Conferance. These are the very ones who are in charge of mentoring and teaching people how to disciple - the good Rev. King tells me I am to honor and be under their authority! :>)
Here's a thought...FBC Jax leaders (at least ONE of them) could say "had we dealt with this man in a Christ-like manner, shown him love and respect despite his not showing any love or respect toward us, and had we been open to hear his concerns, he would not have taken it this far. Had we chosen not to aggressively confront him and trespass him and his wife instead of attempting Matthew 18 with him, maybe he never would have blogged this long. And what if we hadn't used Robby to get us the subpoenas, but instead used the civil process legally to get his identity, and maybe if after we got that information we did not share it at a deacons meeting with hundreds of deacons the same time we mentioned mail stealing and picture taking...perhaps it would never have gone this far and he would have moved on by now. So here's an idea, why don't we TRY a different approach?" Anyone? Anyone? Want to try a different approach than deacon resolutions, slandering of a man at a deacon's meeting, aggressive confrontation, JSO involvement, state attorney subpoena'a and trespass warnings? Any ideas? Anyone?
ReplyDeleteNo matter what you think about Tom and this blog...the church's handling of this STINKS. Shame on them.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteYou can publicize it all you want but I think you can see that most people agree with FBC, Jax.
Its time to give it a rest...
And by the way, a church can decide who they are going to permit in their services.
September 15, 2009 2:11 PM
Dude, pass your crack pipe to the next guy.
Yeah, it's time for a rest - time for a rest from so-called "loving Christians" like yourself. You're the perfect example of the modern church in that you make big claims backed by zero evidence.
Definition:
ReplyDeleteChurches.....an exercise in double standards!!!
What they can do and say about you...because they are a church.
What you "cannot" do and say about them ...because they are a church.
What they are allowed to do and say about you, under the guise of "Church discipline" (ha). But you are not allowed to do or say much about them or it's "considered" (by them) slander. But, check out the rules and regulations they have to protect their actions (legally). While the rest of us are wide open to whatever! And they don't think they are a business,... ha. Not to mention the "tax breaks"!!!!! Not equal representation under the law! Definitely not!!
Hey Tom, someone once told me his daddy could beat up my daddy...i want to sue him and blog about it. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteTom says knock yourself out.
ReplyDeleteAny updates about all the lawsuits???
ReplyDeleteOff Topic Question
ReplyDeleteTom,
Which law firm is representing FBC in their case? Sorry if this has been asked/answered.
Thanks,
To Tom's Daddy:
ReplyDeleteYou really should have let this kid out of the house a few times when he was growing up. Shame on you for letting him suck his thumb this long.
and they'll know we are Christians by our tasers and our handcuffs yes they'll know we are Christians by our tasers and our handcuffs.....la la la la la la la la la la.
ReplyDeleteMy daddy goes to FBC Jax and is a deacon and trustee there. He says any unjust criticism of your daddy is an attack against the church of Jesus Christ and must be aggressively confronted. I think whoever said that about your daddy should have an investigation opened and the JSO should obtain subpoenas through the SAO, and even make up charges against that man if need be. And then if that man objects to that, have others call him names like sociopath and coward. yeah, that will teach that man from ever saying anything about your dad again.
ReplyDeleteYou Mac Supporters are sooo tacky, it's sick. It's unbelievable how LOW you people go. Well, the good thing about it is you are doing NOTHING to help your side and EVERYTHING to hurt it. Trust me, you won't fill the church coffers with comments like I see here. You're almost despicable.
ReplyDeleteYou Tom supporters are so weak and childish. Grow up...put your big boy pants on...and do something productive. Stop salivating over watching Tom work out his personal failures and weaknesses in front of everyone. You ARE despicable.
ReplyDeleteSounds like your daddy is a good man. Lets sue him!
ReplyDeleteYou Mac Supporters are sooo tacky, it's sick. It's unbelievable how LOW you people go. Well, the good thing about it is you are doing NOTHING to help your side and EVERYTHING to hurt it. Trust me, you won't fill the church coffers with comments like I see here. You're almost despicable.
ReplyDelete____________
Did you call me names??? What's the number for JSO. I need your identy and lawyers name.
Nope, didn't call you a name. Just described your character.
ReplyDeleteJSO only works for the FBC, not the public
Good night! read how nasty these Mac Supporters can get. Classless. But business as usual for Mac Supporters. So long as people's money keeps coming in. You people will stop at nothing, that is why so many look down on you. Wow. You're just trash. Dirty and simple as that. Trash.
ReplyDelete"JSO only works for the FBC, not the public"
ReplyDeleteNow that is the truth!
And yet another 'anonymous', but for good reason...trust me on this.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that I have to admit that reading the comments on FBC Jax Watchdog ariticles is a habit I wish I could kick. The HORRIBLE things that people write here surely does not reflect the true nature of the church in the US, does it!?!? I've been serving abroad for 11 years, and get most of my info on things from blogs such as Watchdog.
I thank Watchdog for providing a source of news and info, and for his continued courage!
But really, some of you need to think about the testimony that you're giving to non-believers, and to brothers and sisters who may have left the local Body because of situations like this. These comments, and the continued sense of disrespect/HATE are so discouraging, and heart breaking.
PLEASE...STOP!!! I work in a country with BILLIONS of people who've never had a chance to ever HEAR HIS name spoken!! STOP this insanity, and get your minds and hearts back on the lost of the WORLD, the LOST OF JACKSONVILLE!!
Watchdog, thanks for keeping a watch out for the Body. May Father bring a swift and HONORING end to this whole mess!! For HIS GLORY and the salvation of those lost in your community, and THE WORLD!!
From the other side of the world.
Anon.9/20 8:59 PM: You thank Watchdog for posting what's happening here, and in the same paragraph ask that the negative comments stop. So which is it. Do you want to know what's REALLY going on or not? Unfortunately the church (generic) in America, largely, has gone (in my opinion from observation) the way of the world. The mandate that Christ gave the church (churches in general) has long since been put aside for private agendas of many leaders and for money making organizations using the Gospel and the name of Jesus Christ for profit. But if you study your Bible, and I assume you do, you will see that this must come to be toward the END TIME. We are now in the last church age known as the church of LAODICEA!!!!So for all who really care about whether people get saved or not, we better be about witnessing to the lost as much as possible, as our time is short before the Lord comes for His Bride, the true church, which are those that have accepted Him as Savior and who trust Him and Him only for their Salvation. The body of believers.
ReplyDeleteWaking up to what is going on in churches today, especially many of the megas, and many of the televangelist,etc., is painful for those that believe churches are like they once were. It is hard to realize that what we grew to know and love; the church; is not the same church we have now. Granted there is still a "remnant" of churches/pastors that are sincere in their calling of reaching the lost for Christ. The Lord always has His remnant. The remnant usually spoken of concerning Israel, but as we see in this lost world true born again believers are becoming less and less. Continue your witnessing. Every soul saved is one less soul in hell. Leading someone to Christ is the best thing one can do for them. Keep in mind Jesus is not in a building or an organization, He is in the hearts of men. Don't despair,...Jesus is coming soon!!!!