As Proverbs 15:1 says: "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."
On November 1, 2009, more than 6 months after stating to a Florida Times Union reporter that I am mentally unstable and a sociopath, Dr. Mac Brunson gave a "gentle answer" to the resulting slander lawsuit filed against he and his church. Dr. Brunson has finally taken a step in the right direction.
In his 11/1/09 sermon entitled "Speech Therapy" from James 3:1-2, Brunson expressed "regret" and that he is "deeply sorrowful" for his comments, because of the "influence and the impact of his words", and admitted he should have demonstrated more "maturity". It was very clear that he was referring to his comments made to Jeff Brumley that were published in the Florida Times Union on April 9th, 2009, as Brunson prefaced his "regret" and "sorrow" remarks in his sermon by referring to his words that were "reported on the front page of the headlines".
Click below and you can hear the 2 minute sermon excerpt. If you want to hear the entire sermon, it is available on his I-tunes podcast here, or at his Inlight Ministries podcast website.
A few comments about Mac's comments:
- I commend Dr. Brunson for admitting that he has regret and sorrow for his deeply offending words. These were long overdue. Perhaps if he had been more proactive in apologizing, the defamation part of the FBC Jax lawsuit would never have materialized. And most encouraging to me is that his remarks are more than anyone else at the church has expressed over their own pastor's words, including A.C. Soud, his trustree president who unfortunately followed Brunson's lead and called me a "coward" to the same reporter a few weeks after Dr. Brunson called me a "sociopath". Maybe now many of those who come onto this blog and others who proclaim "Mac was right about you", will be more Christ-like in what they say and how they say it.
- Of course, I hope that if Dr. Brunson truly is regretful and sorrowful and understands how hurtful his words were, that he will contact the Times Union and issue a retraction or clarification of his remarks in the same medium in which they were reported. Calling me a sociopath and mentally unstable to a Times-Union reporter, which ultimately made front page headlines, can not be "corrected" by a statement in a sermon. The audiences are vastly different.
- Also, if you listen to the sermon excerpt, you'll hear Dr. Brunson refer to his statements as a "stumble", and while he does express regret, he defends his misdeed by saying that "we all do it". I respectfully disagree. You see, Dr. Brunson still does not realize that not everyone in the congregation does what he did. Mac was the ONLY person in the 8000+ people in attendance Sunday who was interviewed by the media about the criminial investigation into this blog site by Brunson's friend and body guard who decided to defend the church's actions by stating without reservation that I was mentally unstable and a sociopath. So Dr. Brunson wasn't the victim of the media as he seems to imply in this sermon and others previously. His statements to Brumley were not a "stumble". He knew what he was saying, why he was saying it, and most importantly, to whom he was saying it.
In other word's, Dr. Brunson's remarks were not off-the-record remarks caught on tape; this was no dirt dug up on him, no embarrassing private conversation was overheard, and it wasn't him speaking off-the-cuff in anger. Those might be "stumbles". In the context of him knowing an embarrassing news story was about to come out, it seems he decided to defend his church's actions by proclaiming the blog author to be a nut case. This was Dr. Mac Brunson, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, in a newspaper media interview, sitting in front of Jeff Brumley, on the record, premeditated, stating a very harmful lie about me. He KNEW his comments would be reported. That is not just a "stumble", that everyone does every now and then.
And to make matters worse, he has let 6 months go by without retracting, clarifying, defending, explaining, or apologizing for his comments. And sorry to say, no one in the church, or even Brunson's pastor peers in the SBC has dared to publicly call for Brunson to explain or clarify his remarks....perhaps making Brunson's remarks in his 11/1 sermon all the more commendable.
But, as I said, this is a step in the right direction, and I applaud Dr. Brunson for making this step. Let's see where this might take us. His sermon also mentioned how one needs to apologize to the person harmed personally. Who knows, a personal apology, and clarification through the same medium that what he said was in fact not true, may make a defamation lawsuit against him unnecessary.
But at least this is a step in the right direction.
I was there, I heard the sermon, I thought it was a great sermon, and I also thought he was talking about the newspaper article about you. The only time you aren't required to forgive someone, in my book, is when they don't ever apologize. Maybe you are required to forgive them anyways, I don't know. I almost fell out when I heard him say he was sorry, cause I never thought I'd ever hear a Baptist preacher say that. Ever. His calling you a sociopath was wrong, but now he said he was sorry.
ReplyDeleteGreat Sermon?
ReplyDeleteAs a member I feel to much damage has already been done to the reputation of FBCJ and it was a forced "word apology" and did not come from the heart.
When Mr. Brunson makes a public apology and lifts the restriction on Mrs. Rich to return to the grounds of First Baptist, perhaps then I may think different. Question is, will he be man enough to take care of that issue?
Banning Mrs. Rich from coming on the grounds of a church that I am a member was and is very offensive, even more so than what Mr. Brunson and Mr. Soud verbalized in the Florida Times Union.
Times are hard, people with monies have stopped attending and giving . . .leaves a member to wonder.
I finally finished reading the entire FBC Watchdog blog - yes, every single post from August 2007 to the present day. While it's tiring to hear the same points recapped so often, I understand the necessity of making new readers familiar with events that have already transpired. The posts are only getting juicier and better-written as time goes on.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'd like to say that the Watchdog's content has been extremely interesting and well-written. For those of you who don't like him, saying he's just that gossipy old lady at the potluck picnic, I'd recommend going back to look at some of his older posts and see what he really has to say.
And now its time for you to step up and apologize for all you have done. Don't feed us this hyper-spiritual garbage you usually give us about being maligned and mistreated.
ReplyDeleteStand up, forgive, and move on.
I'm sorry, Anon - are you speaking to me or to Mac Brunson?
ReplyDelete" Also, if you listen to the sermon excerpt, you'll hear Dr. Brunson refer to his statements as a "stumble", and while he does express regret, he defends his misdeed by saying that "we all do it".
ReplyDeleteSorry Dr.Dog this is no apology.
This is a save face attempt to patronize his offended congregation who are leaving or withholding their contributions.
A true apology has no conditions such as "We all do it" Foolishness!
Secondly an apology is directed to the offended party(yourself).
Much like when we sin against God we don't compare ourselves to one another we simply and humbly ask God to "forgive us our transgressions"!!!
Who cares about an apology. Where is true repentance. Saying that everyone 'does it', sounds typical of Mac.
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious this situation has had an effect. he was probably advised to do this for legal and material reasons. He can always point back to a 'public apology' no matter how meager it was and he was not specific. (How convenient)
How can people follow such phoney's? NOt only that but actually give them money? Boggles the mind.
It's a start. I don't know Brunson, so can't really comment as to how sincere he is.
ReplyDeleteI do admit to being suspect of his motives and sincerity, but I will also admit my readiness to be judgemental and biased against him - simply because of who he is. And that ain't fair. Still though, I would not be surprised if this is some sort of play at sympathy or manipulation. It is clear that Brunson is a very clever individual. Any person that can write a book and counsel against taking large gifts, and then turn around and do that very thing, is capable of all sorts of deceit and trickery.
Nevertheless, Cousin Tom, this is a start. I'd like to see a bit more out of him. I'd like to see a lifting of the ban on not only your wife's presence there, but yours too. You certainly should be able to attend special events and occasions there. I'd like to see a written apology to you, as well as a written retraction of the BS he said to Brumley.
As for you, WD, I commend you for your gracious, measured response.
Mac Brunson, you hold the position of leadership here - or did. You need to be the leader and apologize. Fully apologize. And then you must retract the statement you made about a fellow believer being a "sociopath." If you do these things with true humility and sincerity, it is still possible for you to recover your reputation. Mac, you're all fleshed out. For groove's sake, dude, you're leading one of the biggest churches in the country. You have a position in life and ministry that many would literally give an eye or a hand, or both (and more) for. Either be the leader that congregation deserves, or resign. It really is that simple, Mac.
Readers, let's not be quick to criticize Mac Brunson for his efforts to apologize. It is a step in the right direction as the WD points out. Now, it seems the WD is responding positively to this as seen in his referring to the pastor as "Dr. Brunson" and not as "Mac." This shows a new direction in tone and shows respect for the man and his position.
ReplyDeleteI agree that many other issues remain, but most of those must be addressed by Detective Robert Hinson and Administrator John Blount and those men will be held accountable in the Federal lawsuit and the lawsuit versus the church.
As for Mac Brunson, it seems the WD is willing to drop him from the lawsuit if he simply apologizes personally to Tom and his wife, and retracts his statements to the T-U reporter. I would assume (and hope) that the trespass warnings would be lifted to add credence to the above.
So, finally, it looks like Mac Brunson can extricate himself from this mess as a party defendant by doing a couple simple acts.
He talks about making the newspaper for negative things he has said. Well, if he does the above, and the WD dismisses him from the lawsuit, my guess is he would be back in the paper. This time in a positive light.
What will Mac Brunson choose to do?
Readers - this post is not a call for Brunson to apologize to me. I assume if he were inclined to do so, he would have done it long ago, at the advice of his trustees, and mentors like Johnny Hunt and Jerry Vines. If he hasn't retracted his words by now, I don't think he will.
ReplyDeleteI'm certain that Mac and the church leaders believe that his public statements to the media pale in comparison to the sin they believe this blog represents - they said as much in their letter of 16 sins. So I don't hold out hope that there will be any resolution flowing from this.
I just wanted to say that at the very least this is a step in the right direction, and good for Mac in at least acknowledging to his people that his words were wrong and hurtful. Maybe some good can come from that.
Silly Southern Baptists!
ReplyDeleteI am through with them. They are becoming an institution similar to Rome. Doctrines are becoming very similar.
You need strong leaders that can step in and end your silly arguments. Instead of a pope per fellowship, you need to have one. Let's nominate the world traveling Paige Patterson. His wife has a lot of world friends that can help get you in tight with the Roman Church. I think they both know the Pope of Rome.
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Revelation 17:2
Watchdog. Don't believe, for one minute, that Mac is truly repentent or apologitic for his remarks. His statement in the sermon regarding the "stumble" is classic minimizing and reminded me of the words a spouse abuser might use when officially confronted after beating his wife. Those quys are always "sorry" when they are caught, but their behavior seldom changes without intervention. Brunson was caught by that Times-Union interview. I suspect this apology was designed more to address the litigation than to repent of bad actions and attitude. Watch your back.
ReplyDeleteHas anybody heard what the total was for the chest of Joash. Use to we were told what the amount was whether we met it or not,just wondering.
ReplyDeleteAt least two of Brunson's fellow ministers know where WD lives; this thing might be done for good tonight---this very night!---if Brunson would drive over with one of them for a face-to-face real apology. The odds for that are . . . We'll all know in the morning, I guess.
ReplyDeleteSomeone reading here who talks to Brunson often: encourage him to do ALL the right thing, OK? It's time for this thing to be done and the Kingdom to move forward with everybody cooperating (not that the Kingdom is waiting for one little pastor and one little WD to get together).
WD - If there is an apology it should be made in private and you could either accept or reject it. The name calling was personal, after all. I would hope that you would keep something like that private.
ReplyDeleteThere are some things that trouble me with how this all unfolded. However, I think that, given the circumstances, the church leadership acted appropriately.
I have not heard you humble yourself yet. You are not righteous in this matter and, according to your writing, you were presented with a list of your sins. You did sin. You did bring suit and that is wrong as well.
At the end of the day you still have some unfinished business with the discipline committee.
I would hope that your current pastor, and congregation, would step up and straighten you out. You are way out of fellowship on so many levels.
I doubt that this makes it past your censorship. Maybe it will do some good for you to just read this.
My current pastor and congregation setting me straight...I have met with my pastor numerous times, at his request several times, and at my request also, as well as another staff member. They have shared their hearts with me regarding these matters, and I respect them for it, and while they don't agree with me they still love me and my family and don't treat me with scorn as I'm sure you would like. And if they ever have issue with me, I'm sure they will not send over two guys to deliver a letter documenting my sins, and I'm certain they won't slander me to the newspaper. Don't think trespass warnings against my wife will be coming anytime soon, either. Sorry, pal, but that is unique to FBC Jax.
ReplyDeleteI have zero unfinished business with the FBC discipline committee. That is funny that you mention that. I'm sure you and others would just love for me to have to face the tribunal at FBC Jax for their list of 16 sins. I would say, sir, since I am no longer a member I am not subject to their committee, and perhaps the committee should instead focus on their own pastor and other staff members and trustees for their involvement in this fiasco.
I love you brother. I hate the sin. You are pretty good at identifying the sins of the FBC leadership.
ReplyDeleteI apologize to your congregation and to your pastor. I could have figured that they might have made recommendations to you already. Thank you for clearing that up. I know many of them and I should have calculated that. I am sure that they let you know how they would handle things if similar problems started to bubble up.
I just think that you should be in good standing with the previous congregation before you are allowed to become a member in the next one. I think that I have that right.
And the FBC Jax leadership is pretty bad at identifying the sins of my wife, falsely accusing her of "church misconduct" for associating with her blogging husband, and issuing a trespass warning against her with the JSO. I guess you lump that action in your assessment that your church leadership acted appropriately.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that your actions were completely righteous?
ReplyDeleteOff Topic:
ReplyDeleteA great sleuthing work! All done without criminal subpoenas and trespass warnings.
New BBC Open Forum > Happy Birthday, O Purveyor of Baloney!.
Stop Baptist Predators > Happy Birthday to Plano-man!.
Anon 8:58. You would not make a good judge. You can't see the forest for the trees. People leave one church for another for various reasons, and often they move on statement rather than a letter for some of these reasons. You either are a bad reader of the past treatment of Mr & Mrs Rich or you just simply ignore what they had to endure. Once you have walked in their SHOES then maybe, just maybe you will think differently. Been there, done that, and it ain't no fun. A lot of good people have left churches because they had rather have peace and quite than be subject to bad treatment and false gossip. Lifes too short to put up with either. Think about it. Do a study on the Wesley brothers and what they had to endure. Also, John Burgeon is another good example. Lastly, Jesus was criticized by a religious group as well. People within their own families don't get along why pretend otherwise???
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:58. You would not make a good judge. You can't see the forest for the trees. People leave one church for another for various reasons, and often they move on
ReplyDeleteThank you for your insight. Your generalities are correct. However, that is not the case here. I do not know the exact specifics, but Mr. Rich was not a member in good standing of the FBC fellowship when he joined his new fellowship. If you have been around church you must know how problematic it is to move your letter and to be accepted at another fellowship. That is my point.
I do not know the exact specifics, but Mr. Rich was not a member in good standing of the FBC fellowship when he joined his new fellowship.
ReplyDeleteI humbly disagree.
WD was in good standing when he joined his new church. After he joined the new church, then (after Det. Hinson destroyed his evidence and 90 days were over after the closing of the "investigation") only then did Blount decide to exact his pound of flesh.
In the end, Blount cut his own hide and the hide of his bosses. All the while the leadership was cheering that they had WD in the end and they proudly displayed their pound of flesh.
Shylock would have been very proud.
Too bad it back fired on them. As it happened to Shylock.
Intent:
ReplyDeleteI am not surprised that Mac Brunson chose to out WD. When Mac arrived at FBCJ with the full bag of the PURPOSE DRIVEN CHANGE OVER, it was a forgone conclusion that he would want to get rid of anyone who would not GO ALONG with him.
Mac first negotiated his contract, changed the wonderful music to either loud contemporary CCM or blended christian music, started SMALL GROUPS, changed the BYLAWS so it would be difficult to get rid of him, then had the audacity to say that FBCJAX was not going PURPOSE DRIVEN. Well,,,, what do you call all of that?
Anyone who knows anything about PD knows that this is all about MONEY and CONTROL.
So, when WD began to point out serious problem with this MODEL, Mac and his new YES MEN began to attack WD and anyone who apposed Mac.
Hey, we could go on and on about the PAY PRAY OR GET OUT OF THE WAY. It is the MODEL. No brotherly love here. Just stop voicing your disapproval [murmering] and move on. FBCJ simply does not want anyone but followers. Period!!!
By the way, has Mac yet preached a complete message about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
Well if that is a problem with you, JUST GET OUT OF THE WAY.
The intent, is not to scare off the lost by preaching the GOSPEL OF JESUS AND HIS GRACE.
No, I don't think Mac will ever say I'M SORRY, PLEASE FORGIVE ME. IT IS NOT THE PD WAY.
Or maybe since the Florida Baptist Convention is meeting next week and Mac will be there campaigning to become president of the SBC, which meets in Orlando next time, perhaps he (or someone) felt that he should tend his image a bit.
ReplyDeleteThanks TP.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your pointing that out. WD left before the DC met, and was technically still in good standing with FBC.
I wonder if WD discussed his circumstances when he was moving his membership?
I do not see any unanticipated backfire.
If WD has a history of moving on in the midst of problems and misunderstandings, he might want to take a look within.
I know a man that walks around in a dark cloud with frequent lightening strikes to those around him. He keeps moving from job to job and cannot seem to keep viable relationships. He is deemed moody and frequently blows up for no apparent reason.
More recently, he has adapted and found ways to stir up trouble and fix the blame on others. He is a very sad person and I personally avoid him and have nothing to do with him.
Thanks TP.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your pointing that out. WD left before the DC met, and was technically still in good standing with FBC.
I wonder if WD discussed his circumstances when he was moving his membership?
I do not see any unanticipated backfire.
If WD has a history of moving on in the midst of problems and misunderstandings, he might want to take a look within.
I know a man that walks around in a dark cloud with frequent lightening strikes to those around him. He keeps moving from job to job and cannot seem to keep viable relationships. He is deemed moody and frequently blows up for no apparent reason.
More recently, he has adapted and found ways to stir up trouble and fix the blame on others. He is a very sad person and I personally avoid him and have nothing to do with him.
Tom, you have done a service to Christendom instead of sweeping the rampent sin under the rug. The sin of greed, the sin of wanting to be a celebrity, etc.
ReplyDeleteIt is sad that folks are so intent on NOT holding a pastor accountable who is paid highly to model Christ for them.
But people have been following humans for centuries. It is nothing new.
Those with wisdom from above will have already left FBCJax
Mac can now say that he apologized when it is beneficial for him to claim such. He can also claim to not have apologized if it is beneficial to him to do so. There is no apology here. Mac is maneuvering. His comments were in passing as they related to the book of James. What Mac does and what he is sorry for can be applied to anything, and that is his strategy. It seems to me that Mac is getting some pressure to either apologize, or at least to put this situation to rest. Mac wants to do it without addressing anything. He wants to sweep it under the rug while everyone is watching, and then say that he addressed everyone's concerns.
ReplyDeleteDON'T LET THIS FADE AWAY!
"He wants to sweep it under the rug while everyone is watching, and then say that he addressed everyone's concerns.
ReplyDeleteDON'T LET THIS FADE AWAY!
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AGREED ANON 7:22 AM
The "servants of Mac" seem to be frustrated here on this blog as they continue to stand firm, mature and fully assured FBCJ are indeed true servants of God and they have done no wrong to harm the reputation of First Baptist.
Mac still puts himself above everyone else as he says that everyone elses words are not in the headlines like his - he is still exalting himself. He could have just left the exaltation out and and stopped the whole message and gave a repentance apology to the people.
The members of FBCJ want a full time pastor - not a traveling and part time preacher gone all the time at their expense.
Members have re-routed their monies to other storehouses rather than continue to give to the Bank of FBCJ to pay the ridiculous salaries of Brunson, family & friends to live their affluent lifestyles.
Some members are content to stay and just wait him out until the day comes when he leaves. Sad!
Indeed this was not a sorrowful apology but done for "damage control" for the sake of the Southern Baptist Convention - it will work and the "good old boys" club members will give him the title of President.
Seems everyone loves him but those of us here in the community of Jacksonville - he has an ego problem - he's a bully preacher and using the pulpit (and monies) at FBCJ to further his career and not the church.
BTW, most noted is Coach (?) must be telling him to keep one hand in his pocket to keep him from pointing his finger so much, the foot stomping has lightened up, the yelling has settled down. Appears we are working on having a new stage image to the viewers.
Sorry, in my eyes (and others) this "man of God" does not know how to humble himself before the church with godly sorrow. He's all about self. He's a master with words and he did not "stumble."
11/3-10:38 PM: "How problematic it is to move one's letter (membership) and be accepted".
ReplyDeleteThis is not a country club situation. One should not need references to join a church!!! As in the case of the Rich's the offending parties all belong to FBCJ. The Rich's served faithfully for many years!!! Jesus must really be saddended by the treatment of so many of His sheep, while the Scribes and Pharisees reign. But they will reign only for a season.
Rom:2: vs.1..."Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: forwherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things".
Wasn't it Judas who kissed his master on the cheek just prior to accepting 30 pieces of silver to have Jesus killed? People will say anything in order to keep them in power..i.e., Pilate even washed his hands as if to excuse himself from the dastardly deed. Herod told the three wise men to come back and tell him where the babe was so he could worship him also knowing all the while he was going to kill him if he got to his residence. Baptist leaders are not much different from any other groups when it comes to saying one thing and doing another. Yes, the bible is correct...there is nothing new under the SUN!!!
ReplyDeleteWas that an apology? Was the stumbling and fumbling an actual apology. Was Mr. Richs name actually used in the apology?
ReplyDeleteI smell a "settlement offer" coming, at the very least nervousness on the part of some "advisors". Doesn't look good to "the boys". It's getting down to crunch time. Better mumble some sort of apology. But make it as innocuous as possible. Be sure not to include genuine repentance and humility. Just "go on record" enough to satisfy a "legal eagle". Maybe some "friends" are jumping ship. Maybe the money is dwindling. Maybe defeat is a possibility dawning on the "boys". Oh well, on to other venues, the money still flows elsewhere. Maybe then this church can heal and get back to the mandate of the Lord. GETTING PEOPLE SAVED.
It's amazing how apropos the Bible is today. 2 Cor. chp.7: vs. 8: "For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent; for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were for a season". Granted this verse is used out of context, but certainly is interesting. The entire chapter 7, is concerning Paul's joy at the repentance of the Corinthians. How wonderful GENUINE repentance is and CAN be in the sight of the Lord and man, should we ever really see it!!!
Tom,
ReplyDeleteRemember that none of this would have happened if you hadn't started an anonymous blog. Mac owes you nothing. You are not a member of his church yet you continue to stir up dirt.
You are the one that needs to repent and apologize but I'm sure you will continue with this "wounded duck" scenario because it gets you a lot of sympathy.
FBC, Jax should be glad they removed you and your family. It was a wise and prudent step.
Offer coming? Doubtful. If this signals anything, it signals that the church is getting ready to ramp up their legal action in response to WDs. They're going to hit back, and hit hard. This is perhaps the pastors attempt to offer a little grace before the big one lands.
ReplyDelete"Or maybe since the Florida Baptist Convention is meeting next week and Mac will be there campaigning to become president of the SBC, which meets in Orlando next time, perhaps he (or someone) felt that he should tend his image a bit."
ReplyDeleteAstute observation, Denn.
Randy M - you've made your point here numerous times. Why not use your name Randy M? Come on guy.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:36
ReplyDeleteI agree. Mac did not stumble. He only regrets being held accountable for what he said. And I hope he is being taken DOWN!. He should be. He needs to be! I fear that Christianity is being lost to these types of people. But .... True Christians to not need people like Mac; and God will raise up a True Christian to take over.
"If this signals anything, it signals that the church is getting ready to ramp up their legal action in response to WDs. They're going to hit back, and hit hard.
ReplyDelete__________________________________
Hope the "big boys" rethink a game plan to hit back, and hit hard.
If they make that judgement call then they need to be prepared for a backlash - Insiders are watching.
"Remember that none of this would have happened if you hadn't started an anonymous blog."
ReplyDeleteI hope that is not the best defense that Detective Hinson and John Blount can offer when they are asked what they did to get WD's federally protected private information, and why they did it, when they did it.
"Gee your honor, none of this would have happened if he hadn't started that anonymous blog."
What a sad illustration of how some people live. I wonder if they beat their wife and abuse others and say "I would have never abused you if you hadn't did what YOU did. YOU should repent, not me. I only hurt you because of what you did. You apologize."
Yeah, that is a great approach to take to this situation, anon. Thanks for posting here.
When I said way back at the beginning of this that I thought it was a great sermon cause I was there and heard it, I want you all to know that OF COURSE all the REASONS he may have been apologizing crossed my mind while listening to it. I was actually very uncomfortable in there and almost left. But since when are we supposed to be the judge of a persons heart? If he is in any way trying to con people, thats Gods judgment call to make. And I believe in God enough to think He will make the call. I think its in the Bible somewhere about not judging the intent of someones heart. And ya'll, again, that little apology is more than I personally have EVER heard out of a Southern Baptist pastor. When have you all ever heard one apologize for anything? (but, no, I'm not stupid or gullible...give me a break.) Im just not the judge. When you say you know why he did it, you cross the line to judge.
ReplyDeleteI think Mac would make the perfect SBC president.
ReplyDeleteI am reposting Pastor Wade Burleson's comment to RM here from New BBC Open Forum's Blog.
ReplyDelete-------------------------------------
Wade Burleson said...
NASS - Well done.
Randy,
This comment is a personal appeal to you. I am unsure how to contact you privately, but think the public appeal may be the best means in the long run.
We do not know each other and have never spoken personally. You may choose to discount what is written here, but these words are offered with a genuine concern for you and a desire to see that this post by NASS changes your life.
It is likely your heart flutters the way David's did when Nathan pointed his finger at the king and said, "Thou art the man." David's practice of pronouncing sanctimonious judgments on others, while ignoring his own sin, was exposed by God through a commoner who had the courage to confront.
You've been confronted and have arrived at a crossroads. One road leads to a bitter denunciation of anyone and everyone who participated in exposing you or celebrated at your exposure. The other road leads to brokenness.
Just a moment ago I knelt and asked God to send His grace without measure to your soul. My request of our Lord was that you would not defend, not attack, not hide and not shift the blame--but that you would confess your duplicity, hypocrisy and pharisaical spirit, and by God's grace become a broken man.
When God humbles a man by His grace, He breaks Him of self-righteousness and self-love. That usually happens when God makes a man to figuratively stand naked and exposed before the world at large. David felt it, my inclination is that if you have experienced even a small measure of God's grace, you now feel it.
Don't spurn it. Don't try to cover it. Don't waste it.
Simply acknowledge what is true, seek the forgiveness of those you have wronged, and rest in the forgiveness that is find in Christ. I remind you that the true power of Jesus Christ is ONLY seen in broken vessels. You chose the wrong road at this time and your life will remain powerless. You chose the road of confession and genuine repentance, by God's grace, and your life will be energized by the Spirit's power in ways you could never imagine.
My prayer for you is genuine and heartfelt. May God in His grace see fit to answer it for the good of His people.
In His Grace,
Wade
12:04 PM, NOVEMBER 04, 2009.
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Anon. 10:01, I suppose you also believe it is the spouses fault when her husband beats her black and blue because she questioned his decision or didn't treat him like a god? You're a real piece of work! The problem is not with Watchdog; never was. Mac is the problem, because he has a problem. He is not alone, however, the majority of SBC leaders are afflicted with the same abusive, self-absorbed personality traits. Sadly, they have projected those as desired qualities of pastoral leadership to thousands of wannabe leaders and pastors throughout the Convention. That is, I believe, a major reason the SBC is in decline. Clergy are not trusted anymore...especially mega church clergy.
ReplyDeleteOffer coming? Doubtful. If this signals anything, it signals that the church is getting ready to ramp up their legal action in response to WDs. They're going to hit back, and hit hard. This is perhaps the pastors attempt to offer a little grace before the big one lands.
ReplyDeleteNovember 4, 2009 10:03 AM
What a Christian thought!
Do you think that your actions were completely righteous?
ReplyDeleteAre you still thinking about how to answer this question, WD?
I suppose that this is your blog and you can write or post whatever you choose.
You say that you were called a "coward" and I noticed that you do not claim to have brought suit against that person that called you a "coward." Perhaps the party that you say called you a "coward" might give you as much as give? If someone called me a "coward" I might be inclined to make them prove it. In terms of name calling, it seems to me that "coward" would rate pretty high on the scale of insults. Isn't "coward" is a bit worse than even "sociopath." I suppose that sociopath is more of a technical term and should be used only by those qualified to make such a determination.
"Coward" is used on a very personal level and usually by some one who is fed up, weighed the situation thoughtfully, and determined to accept the consequences for the ultimate insult. "Coward" is a very intentional and personal insult that communicates volumes and volumes. I cannot remember personally calling anyone a "coward" in my entire life.
I guess you know how Chuck Connors felt now.
"Branded, marked with the cowards shame. What do you do when you are branded..."
Chuck.. great crusader type seems to have been a great influence.
Uh-Oh just dropped a hint of my identity.
I'm sorry, Anon - are you speaking to me or to Mac Brunson?
ReplyDelete_________________
You are so immature...this sounds like a kid writing this...how old are you? Grow up junior.
Anon 7:37 PM
ReplyDelete"Isn't "coward" is a bit worse than even "sociopath."
I consider this word as kiddie playground bully talk and not worthy of going after...however, being call a "sociopath" publically is definitely a reason to file a lawsuit for defamation of character.
A man's good name calls for a legitimate law suit. it's not about monies, it's about making a public false statement and clearing ones name.
Special thanks to "Thy Peace" for
posting links. Very informative. Had notice some of those names had not been coming on as much - now I know why. Interesting read!
As for Mr. Brunson becoming president of SBC, I too hope they elect him - for sure, they can count on him to spend valuable time on their projects at his desk here at his home church.. Does he receive an addition paycheck for the honor of being president, in addition to airfare, hotels, meals for him and Mrs.? :>)
BTW, I'm someone who does not know or have any connection to the Rich family. Just an individual who came on the blog when they ousted Mrs. Rich who was treated unjustly by the "bully coward".
I'm sorry - I just have to step in for a moment. I realize you were very hurt by the comments made to the newspaper, but I wonder if you have considered the defermation of character that was done to Dr. Brunson through your own blog. It is a media source with a large audience the same as the newspaper. The thing I don't think anyone understands is how much this is hurting the body of Christ as well as Jesus Himself. The Bible says "there should be no schism in the body". It also says "Bless those who persecute you" and "as the elect of God put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another,if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do." So, I was just wondering if you're going to honor God's word here and now, or if the blood bath will continue. I implore you, sir, to be reconciled in Christ Jesus and ask Him to wash everyone's actions in the precious blood that He poured out for you, for Mac, and for myself. It is the same blood that covers us all - one is not greater or lesser than another. Do we make mistakes - sure - what's more is we all intentionally sin against one another. Oh, how I pray that this situation would be resolved and reconciled and that we would all learn to control our tongues. I was just wondering, "will you not release Dr. Brunson from his sin against you? Privately and publically? Will you allow the Holy Spirit to deal with Mac on this issue. God is just and He alone knows how to discipline His children. It doesn't lessen his sin against you, but it does honor our LORD and Savior. Please, for the sake of our Salvation, forgive and settle this matter outside of court. Let the love of Christ overtake you and empower you to forgive." I wish I had the words that could reach to the depth of your soul and heal you so that you can forgive - but only Jesus can do this. I simply plead the blood of Jesus over you and Pastor and the situation and pray the Holy Spirit will overtake and empower your spirit and that God Almighty would bind up the flesh from the matter. I'm not saying he didn't sin against you and I'm not saying he didn't deeply hurt you - I'm pleading with you to forgive his sin against you lest you be judged by the same measuring stick. Have you decided when enough will be enough? When does this end? You have the power to end it today and take hope and courage that you will. "It's never wrong to do the right thing."
ReplyDeleteNovember 5, 2009 2:19 PM
ReplyDeleteMay I just make a small comment to say there has been no "defamation of character" described on this blog about Mac Brunson.
Everything said on this blog is and has been actual events that have taken place at FBCJ since Mac Brunson arrived in Jacksonville.
In fact, very few people even knew about this blog until they read it in the headlines of Florida Times Union, I happened to be one of those individuals.
This blog is minor conversation compared to what the members are actually saying to one another - a hurricane is brewing at FBCJ and believe me it is not the fault of the FBC Jax Watchdog!
Anon. 2:19, Pllllleeeeeeease. Give us all credit for having the ability to think. Mac was the one operating from a position of power and control. He has not been defamed in this blog...he has been described. The spiritual pablum you spouted is insulting and demeaning to all of us who Love God deeply, are committed to Christ and His Church...not to arrogant, greedy, self-absorbed showmen, masquerading as shepherds. No matter how you slice it or try to spin it, you cannot avoid the reality that Tom, not Mac, is the victim here.
ReplyDeleteWD,
ReplyDeleteYou really believe this man is changing?
Come on. We know this is wearing your thin, but these type do not repent, they procratinate and plan more personal agendas.
After hearing his comments you posted, It definitely did not sound to me as a "opening" for repentance.
I believe he was "jerking your chain" to get a reaction...and U gave him exactly what he wanted...
a laugh.
Keep the lawsuit aginst this man and others - if nothing more to stop others within the "Baptist Mafia" from pulling the same ploy down the road against others.
Stay strong dude...do not fall for this Baptist propaganda...
I consider this word as kiddie playground bully talk and not worthy of going after...however, being call a "sociopath" publically is definitely a reason to file a lawsuit for defamation of character.
ReplyDeleteI suppose that if a trained and educated psycologist made such a statement as "sociopath" then there might be some credibility and some basis for legal action. I think that "Coward" and "Sociopath" have different meaning but are the same level of insult and created the same measurement of damage.
Why would you go after one guy, that insulted you, and not the other guy that at least equally insulted you? I would actually think that the "coward" insult is paramount as it was leveled by an expert, with years of experience, at identifying that characteristic in a person.
I know the answer and it is perfectly clear.
How about some of you readers that claim to be lawyers jump in and discuss why one guy is a lawsuit target and the other is not a target.
Anon 2:19
ReplyDeleteWe all are saddened by the state of affairs in our Christian circles. But it is no surprise that this will take place. Are you shocked that good men of God go bad? The devil is working overtime 24-7 to take them out. The bible is filled with warnings about our need to stay close to the Lord, for we can not handle the ever present sin that is out there without the help of the Holy Spirit.
What we find here on this blog is Watchdog showing us what is going wrong at FBCJAX. I believe that this blog is here to open the eyes of the church members and also Mac Brunson. Clearly Mac has taken a wrong path in CHANGING FBCJAX. Thousands of members have left. The preaching has turned from being Jesus Christ centered to seeker sensitive. Just listen to the services. Anyone will observe this. Sunday school is SMALL GROUPS oriented. No emphesis on visitation or soul winning. And on an on.
So,why this blog? In my view it is to bring to the attention of ALL CHRISTIAN, problem areas that we need to be aware of. Then we, with the help of the Holy Spirit, need to be strong in the Lord and then DO RIGHT.
If you listen to Mac Brunson you will find a skilled preacher. One who could be mightyly used of the Lord. Unfortuneatly, in my view, he will not center his preaching around our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Some have even said that he is not led by the Holy Spirit but by some CHANGE AGENT. How sad.
So Anon 2:19, We love you and wish things were different but don't expect us to sit back and let the world and our churches go to Hell. We will speak out!!!
"The thing I don't think anyone understands is how much this is hurting the body of Christ as well as Jesus Himself."
ReplyDeleteYou are speaking of the sin coming from FBCjax, right? How could sweeping greed, deception, arrogance under the rug HELP the cause of Christ?
"Te Bible says "there should be no schism in the body"."
So that means ignoring willful blatent sin and twisted scriptural teaching and never holding the celebrities accountable?
The same scripture says otherwise.
"t also says "Bless those who persecute you""
Are you speaking of the Christ haters here? Only Christ haters would persecute other Christians. Is that how you are defining Mac?
You think it was talking about Born AGain believers who call themselves brothers?
What on earth do you do with 1 Corin 5 or Galatians 3? Or Hebrews 10:26-31 or 1 John 4 and 5?
Ignore them, I guess. Nope, most of you all are so biblically ignorant all you can do is parrot what the celebrities TEACH but DO NOT DO!
"nd "as the elect of God put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another,if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do."
Does this negate the verses I mentioned above? This means we just ignore sin by those who are paid HIGHLY to role model Christ for you and who are celebrities paid to do so for the whole community adn the SBC. We want them to think MAC represents Christianity?
You are scary. But a typical follower. But you are not getting value for the money you are spending to prop this hirling up. Even the secular world is on to him and many others. Too bad Christians do not follow Christ or they would get it, too.
" I'm not saying he didn't sin against you and I'm not saying he didn't deeply hurt you - I'm pleading with you to forgive his sin against you lest you be judged by the same measuring stick. "
ReplyDeleteOnly God can grant repentance. Tom is just a human. Forgiveness does not mean there are no consequences and it does not always mean reconcilliation or fellowship with those who are unrepentant.
You need to speak with Mac. He is the one who is in control, authority over others in the church and running the show. He is the one you should be worried about because his behavior is reprehensible for someone who makes a good living from ministry. He is a hirling.
Hey, Anon at November 5, 2009 2:19 PM:
ReplyDeleteI double dog dare you to say those same words to Mac publicly in front of members at FBCJax.
Do it and see what happens.
I double dog dare you to say those same words to Mac publicly in front of members at FBCJax.
ReplyDeleteDo it and see what happens.
November 5, 2009 8:45 PM
Are you serious? This anon would not get past the first sentence...unless, he is trying to win some points in Fla right now. Then, my bet is he plays the role of contrite, humble pastor.
Anyone for popcorn?
Are you serious? This anon would not get past the first sentence...unless, he is trying to win some points in Fla right now. Then, my bet is he plays the role of contrite, humble pastor.
ReplyDeleteAnyone for popcorn?
November 6, 2009 7:10 AM
_____________
Didn't take long for members to pass the word on what really takes place when requesting a meeting with the Senior Pastor.
Altho he's paid a hefty salary, he's so busy doing his personal ministry, visiting other churches, tour traveling which is under the false title of mission ministries, he has very little time left for face to face meetings with the very people who pay him.
Also word is he reviews our spiritual profiles, (pre-judges your works) and then the secretary comes in when your t0-15 minute time slot is up. Take a number please!
Members have no desire to talk with him - they know he himself has said he lets others be the bad guys. He allows others to take out the garbage. Example, the three kings (who are no longer with FBC telling a former pastor he no longer had a job.
Too many details on behind the scenes have been leaked on how this administration runs the church from insiders who are respected and trusted.
A humble preacher would have let his voice be heard and put an end to this from day one. Would have been so easy - now he himself has created a scandelous reputation for the downtown First Baptist Church.
Mac Brunson put himself in the headlines - he, the judge, Hinson. They fired the first shots and started the mess - they are the very ones who in a days time could end this all.
The true supporters of Mac Brunson are the few deacons, committee members and weak staff who are fearful of loosing employment under his authority. Why wouldn't they be, he certainly wines and dines them whining about everyone out to get him. His agenda is self, not what's best for FBCJ.
The true supporters of Mac Brunson are the few deacons, committee members and weak staff who are fearful of loosing employment under his authority. Why wouldn't they be, he certainly wines and dines them whining about everyone out to get him. His agenda is self, not what's best for FBCJ.
ReplyDeleteNovember 6, 2009 8:37 AM
This is what is so great about a mega church. Most folks attending have NO clue what is going on. What their money is used for or anything else. The believe everything they are told because being a Berean would be too hard.
They put in their 'church' time, enjoy the show put on and count it as serving the Lord. They love the programs and events.
That is why we have so many mega churches. The gate is narrow and few enter.
November 5, 2009 8:03 PM wrote: "Why would you go after one guy, that insulted you, and not the other guy that at least equally insulted you? I would actually think that the "coward" insult is paramount as it was leveled by an expert, with years of experience, at identifying that characteristic in a person."
ReplyDelete__________________________________
Are you serious? Really? I should sue someone who calls me a coward? What about if he calls me a "chicken" or "fraidy cat?" No, being called a coward, even it does come from a has been, retired judge who reads deacon's resolution to the Wednesday night crowd at his church, is not worthy of any legal action in my opinion.
But when the pastor of a mega church, in an effort to defend the indefensible, tries to attack the credibility and mental state of a former member who questioned him on a blog, well that is slanderous, even outrageous, and will be compensable under the law. Both compensatory damages and punitive damages may be applicable.
If the WD sued everyone who called him a coward, their would be hundreds of defendants. If he sues a mega pastor who told a newspaper reporter he was mentally unstable and a sociopath, there is only ONE! Donald McCall Brunson, Jr. The "prince of a man" and "humble shepherd" of the FBC of Jacksonville.
November 6, 2009 9:59 AM
ReplyDeleteAmen!!
Are you serious? Really? I should sue someone who calls me a coward? What about if he calls me a "chicken" or "fraidy cat?" No, being called a coward, even it does come from a has been, retired judge who reads deacon's resolution to the Wednesday night crowd at his church, is not worthy of any legal action in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI think there might be another reason. Try again.
True cowards in this entire episode are the leadership of FBC JAX.
ReplyDeleteI remember distinctly Pastor Mac Brunson preaching that Christianity is not for wimps.
I sir, have come to tell you all that you are ALL wimps.
For you have not borne the burdens as a Christian should.
It would have been much, much, much easier to answer these "silly" questions being asked by a pesky blogger than go to extreme lengths to make a laughing stock of him. But in the end it was you all who are being made the laughing stock.
By your very determined lengths you went to out him and disgrace him, it proves the validity of his questions.
Yes we know who the true cowards are.
Yes, Christianity is not for wimps.
By your very determined lengths you went to out him and disgrace him, it proves the validity of his questions.
ReplyDeleteHe was outed. I have read his accusations that leadership outted him. There is no evidence that it was leadership that leaked the matter.
Mr. Rich is often given the opportunity to deny his sins publicly on this blog. He will not even acknowledge the question. In my opinion, he ignores the question because he knows that blogging about your church and it's leadership is the wrong way. The right way is to simply leave and find somewhere that you are more effective as a Christian. Look at the wake that WD leaves.
Mac is preaching the gospel and he is not attacking WD. He responded and his response was out of character, but no more damaging than someone calling him a "coward." I would point out that the church leadership has only spoke once of the matter. The reason that WD does not bring suit for the coward insult is that his "consultants" will not advise suit against a member of the legal community. Mr. Rich also understands that Mac will not counter sue for defamation. Deny, deny, deny, if you will, but there are statements in this blog that are spun to tear down the character of Pastor Brunson and FBC in the process. This ain't Nineva and WD is not Jonah.
I have said it before and I will say it again. The church leadership should just give WD what he asks for, if it is not absurd. We should all just "shake the dust", pray for his soul, and leave Mr. Rich to his own devices.
Thanks Anon, for giving us a glimpse into the mind of a religious zealot who can't see things as they are.
ReplyDeleteI don't need to be given the opportunity to confess my sins. I don't confess as sin that which I know myself is not sin. Very simple.
Sociopath is actionable defamation. Coward is not. Very simple. If Soud had called me a sociopath and Brunson called me coward, guess what? How hard is that for you to understand?
Brunson or FBC Jax, Inc. may still countersue. Wouldn't surprise me one bit and I'm prepared for that. I argue that it might have been the more noble route at the very beginning if as you say defamation has occured on this blog. Sue John Doe and seek a subpoena on the WD author ID. That would allow the legal system to work. But that would certainly have brought media attention to the blog and the issues raised on the blog. But the route of tying spurious at best criminal allegations to a critical blog to get suboenas issued outside the public eye and without the blog author knowing about it...that might be, shall we say, a cowardly route.
And you're just out of touch with reality. This is not going to go away by "giving the WD what he asks for", as though your money will buy peace through this mess. If only this were about figuring out how much money could be thrown at it, it would be so simple. Fact is this probably could go away WITHOUT money, if there were reasonable people in charge at FBC Jax who would wake up one morning and decide to handle this matter according to the Bible that they profess is the holy, inspired, infallible Word of God. Their inability and unwillingless to handle this matter according to what their Bible says, shows them for who they are. The most controversial scandal at FBC Jax in years, and they can't use their bible to figure out what to do. Sad, but true.
It would seem that you were given that opportunity to handle this matter in a Christian manner already. I remind you that no one knew your identity before law enforcement involvement. Church security was an issue.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that there are sins on your part. We are all sinners. You did not seek reconcilliation of your grievances privately. I see no reasonable arguments around this.
You are not the Lone Ranger, Chuck Connors, Batman or Jonah. You are not a messenger from God sent to identify and deal with "villians." This is not your appointment.
You are your own greatest problem. Others have told you the same thing through out your life. You might consider that and take a look down memory lane at family, friends, business associations, jobs and determine where the problems are created. This is not a unique situation in your life...is it?
Your problems are actually therapeutic for many of us. There is some of your personality in all of us. Most of us manage to suppress the urge to create problems for others unnecessarily.
If someone started preaching false doctrine, you can bet there would be a lot of people at FBC stepping up. That is not the case, in my opinion.
If you expect some sort of restoral or apology or a firing of key personnel at FBC, I doubt that will happen. The church certainly owes you no apology.
Just exactly what is it that you want?
You are not the Lone Ranger, Chuck Connors, Batman or Jonah. You are not a messenger from God sent to identify and deal with "villians." This is not your appointment.
ReplyDelete=======
How arrogant. Neither is it yours or FBC Jax's "appointment" to determine what is or is not my "appointment".
Your head is in the sand, sir.
You may be right. This might be the biggest "scandal" in FBC history. It is remarkable that a church of this size has escaped a giant scandal. On a relative scale of historical church scandals, that I can recall, this is minutia.
ReplyDeletePraise God!
WD: You are so correct about church leadership not knowing how to use their bibles in order to do whats right. I guess they just don't know enough Greek!!!
ReplyDelete"If someone started preaching false doctrine, you can bet there would be a lot of people "
ReplyDeleteAs your whole comment proves, there are not enough at FBCJax that could identify false teaching or hirling behavior to know or Mac would not last there.
That would include most of the SBC for over the last 20 years. Biblical ignorance is the single biggest problem in what we call churches today.
Unfortuantly, you are proof of this. I say this with sadness for you.
If you really knew Jesus Christ and what happened on that Cross, you could not stay in such a place and you would warn others to flee it and stop supporting hirlings.
It is not about Mac. He is a symptom of a much larger problem in our churches. It is about the REAL Jesus Christ and not these temples of greed and entertainment that benefit a few.
Blogger 12:18: You have nailed it perfectly. Bible IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM. People know NOTHING about their Bibles. It's really pitiful. And God will hold them responsible for this ignorance one day. So much going on in churches(?) today, would never happen if people weren't ignorant of scripture. For one thing preachers would not get away with basing their ministries(?) on money, fame and perks. I would not want to try to explain this type of activity to God if I were them. If you don't KNOW your Bible then you believe just about any thing someone else tells you. It's hard to recognize the "phonies", and they are everywhere. PITIFUL!!!
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if you go to inlight ministries, he says he is "deeply sorry" and the rest starting at 13:25. Its great hes actually sorry about something finally!
ReplyDeleteTom,
ReplyDeleteI want to take a moment here and ask you to sit down and type out 10genuine prayer requests concerning Dr. Mac and FBCJ without using it as a sword and post it to your blog. If you could have peace with this issue, would you take it? I am willing to pray and maybe others are too. God listens and acts on prayer.
That's ok, thanks for the offer. But feel free to post whatever prayer requests you have for Mac Brunson, or for me, or for my wife and family. That would be fine. I pray as the Spirit leads me, as I'm sure you do. And be sure to ask Mac if we would please lead the church in prayer for me and my family. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteAll he called you was a sociopath?
ReplyDeleteI wonder what Christ will call you on judgment day for stoning His Bride, the Church. You won't be able to sue him.