I will return to the topic of Matt Chandler in a bit, as I am doing more research on him for a few future articles. I find his ministry to be very intriguing. The more I learn about him, the more surprised, or perhaps impressed, I am that FBC Jax invited him to speak at the 2009 Pastor's Conference. Contrary to what some critics have posted here on the previous article, Chandler is NOT cut from the same mold as your typical SBC mega pastor, not by a long shot.But I wanted to post a few articles on the topic of tithing. Our friends over at The Wartburg Watch are posting some articles this week on the doctrine of tithing, and their first article is going up today.
Wartburg Watch on Tithing
Having been a member at First Baptist Church of Jacksonville while pastors Vines and Lindsay were there, and then for 2 1/2 years with Brunson, I noticed a vast difference between what Vines and Lindsay taught about Christian giving, and what Brunson taught. At first I thought the difference between Vines/Lindsay and Brunson was more technique than doctrine. But after more reflection and research I believe it more than technique, that the Brunson theology on giving is a dangerous, legalistic doctrine requiring one to tithe to be in a proper relationship with God - in fact to avoid God's wrath one must tithe or suffer severe consequences, and that Christians' failure to tithe is causing God to punish our country. Brunson's sheep-beater sermons on tithing have caused me to look more closely at what I've been taught about tithing from scripture.
I don't write any of this to discourage people from giving to their church, or to encourage people to give less to their church or to suggest people shouldn't give 10% to their church. But for goodness sakes its time for church people to wake up about what the modern church has been teaching about Christian giving and stewardship, especially given how many of these same pastors who are preaching it are themselves taking a chunk of the dough for their personal fortunes.
But as a starting point on my thoughts on tithing, I wish to share something that I came across earlier this year that I found startling and will be the basis for my blog posts on tithing. Its not so much startling because of its content, but because of the authors' affiliation.
I discovered two research papers published by two authors that do a complete biblical and doctrinal analysis of the issue of tithing - a deconstruction of Old Testament tithing doctrine misused by pastors for so long, and a reconstruction of biblical, New Testament grace giving. These two authors conclude in part that "..the view that Christians are required to give at least 10 percent of their income lacks adequate support from the biblical data".
Their research is very deep and scholarly. They not only debunk the myth that Christians are obligated by scripture to tithe, but they analyze the current cultural context of WHY pastors still try to sell this doctrine to their churches, when they KNOW (or should know) that it is not supported in scripture.
You say "So what, probably just a few liberal nuts who wrote some crazy paper on tithing."
You would be wrong.
This research paper is authored by two seminary professors at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary: Andreas Kostenburger and David Croteau. Andreas is still to this day a professor at SEBTS. Gee, he's probably friends with Jim Smyrl, famous SEBTS alum and creator of the "Theology Driven Ministry" model. Croteau is no longer at SEBTS, but is a professor at Liberty University. Croteau has a blog where he has many, many articles on the tithe.
There are lots of websites and voices out there that have said the same thing that Kostenburger and Croteau have said, but no one in the SBC pays them any attention. But these guys are two of our own, from a conservative SBC seminary, and they are worth listening to. This paper is probably not intended for stupid sheep like us who have been spoon fed the tithing doctrine our entire Christian lives, which makes it all the more important for us to read! This is information that your pastor probably knows, or as I said, SHOULD know - but they still tell you that you are robbing God if you don't meet the 10% tithing threshold.
So I will share some summaries and thoughts on these two papers by Kostenburger and Croteau. I encourage you, if you have the time, to browse these papers. They are not difficult reading. Be careful, as you might end up a little miffed, wondering why your pastor still pulls out Malachi 3 to tell you that you must tithe, and that you must bring it all into the "storehouse" and that the church is that "storehouse" and that you are "robbing God" if you don't. That is a fable we've been told by pastors who themselves probably know its not true, but they do it since it helps keep the sheep's wallets lubed and makes for hefty offerings on the "move that mountain" Sunday. Sad thing is, this false doctrine allows the richest members to drop their 10% in the plate and strut around as though they've met some magic (although artificial) threshold of giving that makes them spiritually superior - and then they can be super-super spiritual by declaring they are "tithing on the tithe".
Here are the articles so that you may read them yourself. The website at which these are published is a site founded by Kostenburger himself:
Notice Hebrews is written to "THE HEBREWS". Most Christians are not Hebrews they were brought into the true vine by a better covenant...the Blood of the Lord Jesus. Whenever one believes he has to do something, i.e., tithe, keep the Sabbath, then Grace disappears and the Old Law and Covenant comes back into practice.
ReplyDeleteThese old covenant practices were a picture or a shadow of what was to come....Grace. The old covenant of blood letting had to be done over and over again. A better covenant of Jesus dying on the Cross and shedding His Blood ....one time finished it forever. He then sat down on the right hand of the Father. Hopefully, everyone can read not only these two professors paper but their own Bible and realize tithing is OLD COVENANT theology!!!
Sorry WD, any discussion regarding the tithing assumes that you would be tithing to a Church. I absolutely agree with a previous post that these are NOT Churches anymore, they are corporations with CEOs acting as preachers. Therefore, what the Bible does or does not say about tithing does not apply to these corporations. We must re-establish our so called churches as true Christian Churches before anything in the Bible applies to them.
ReplyDeleteOur HUGE problem is that churches are not Churches anymore.
Very deep paper and good stuff to know. Plus its just common sense. If a single mom of three kids gives $100 each week to her church (Assuming she grosses $1000 per week), that is $400+ dollars every month. That is a major, major sacrifice for that family, which may mean the difference between having money to repair the car, buy new tires, fix an appliance, etc. Yet, if Mac Brunson gives $3000 per month (assuming $360,000 annual gross income/benefit package), he still has $27,000 per month left to take cruises, visit the grand kids, fix the car (we all know the church will buy, pay the insurance and fix the car for him). So he stands up and declares he will tithe on the tithe (give another $300 each month), leaving him $26,700 EACH MONTH to live on. And you actually believe that is "equal giving and giving sacrifice." It makes no sense. The single mom should give LESS to the church and more to her family's real needs (that is her first priority and ministry according to my Bible) and Mac should give thousands more (or accept thousands less). This is just common sense and we all know this in every context but the Sunday morning sermon. And then Mac has the gall to hold up the Bible and say "take it up with 'da book!" I hope that single mom, and thousands of others hurting in this economy, WILL take it up with the book, like these scholars have, and "just say NO to Mac."
ReplyDeleteNotice the tithe was to be given to the tribe of Levi who were the ones that kept the temple and made certain all the laws and customs were maintained. Now if a pastor of a gentile church can prove he is of the tribe of Levi, then that would be another situation. Just thinking.
ReplyDeleteAsk yourself this question. If a widow who has $600 per month to live on, in a senior residence, how is she to pay for her medicines, food, and other necessities when $60 per month is supposed to go to a church? How about a disabled veteran who is on social security or medicaid who has only $20 per month to maintain necessities can afford even $2 per month to a church, especially one where he doesn't belong, since he is in the care of a VA hospital. How about a nursing home and all of those there who never visit a church, (and I might add, THE CHURCH DOESN'T VISIT THEM) should they tithe as well especially since they never meet the pastors as the pastors never visit them. Hopefully, you get the picture. Just got to tithe to keep the building and pastor maintained and in good style. So they cajole members to "remember" them in their will. Then when said person dies they say "Who was that guy that left US the money, never met him". But he sure was "faithful". SUCCER.
ReplyDelete"just say NO to Mac."
ReplyDeleteMany are, his peers tells us he's one of America's greatest preachers, but yet he can't even fill up his own church. Why not? There was a day when downtown First Baptist was shoulder to shoulder with people . . .I'm another one done with giving to the mega church country club golden boys.
anon: 9:07
ReplyDeleteHere is going to be the deal. THe heart of the giver. If Mac has bumped up his giving to honor God then GOd will take notice. If it is to prime the pump then I do not agree with that. A tithe of the tithe is just giving 11% if I figured that correctly. It just makes it sound better. When we use the word tithe it makes it sound holy. At my church we do not have a money issue at church. We have surplus each month. The only time I really preach about money is for missions. In general my people give. Usually the older generation. I do try to relay to my younger people if you want to take ownership in the ministry of your church then you need to fianacially support it. This is the deal with the mega church you support it financially but you never have ownership in its ministry and its direction.
Also I truly feel that churches need to get away from large budgets. We are going to hit a day when we are not going to have the money to run these money pits. Why not deal with that issue now and figure out how our grandparents and ancestors did the mission of GOd without large budgets. I believe it is called the Holy Spirit which when Simon the sorcerer try to pay for it he got rebuked. Cash will never substitute what GOd can do.
Pastor,
Chris
Dr.Dog outstanding post.
ReplyDeleteAs our Lord stated "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free"!
Free from abusive,deceptive hirelings in the pulpits of our churches,manipulating the Bible,yoking the people of God too Old Test.Law for their own sordid gain.
These disingenuous men bring dishonor to the Name of Christ and the freedom He provided thru His Sacrifice!!!
Thanks Dr.Dog for revealing to people that they are not under the tithe,but under Grace;
Giving as you purpose in your heart with freedom,gladness and cheer!!!
I really believe GOD is nowhere near these church's now and GOD really could care less about what is given to any of these phonies because they ( these church's and these Baptist Pastors ) are so far from his truths and teachings that GOD has turned his back on them.
ReplyDeleteHow could he care? Why would GOD care?
What a mockery!
The letter to the Hebrews was writtten to believers: Hebrew converts who had been dispersed perhaps due to persecution. So were several other books that compromise the General Epistles. Good articles Mr. Rich.
ReplyDeleteDr Who, I agree absolutely.
ReplyDeleteMega churches are no longer Churches, therefore tithing does not apply. The only way to get their attention is to stop giving them money.
WD - the link at right side of your website front page "The Cold Hard Truth About Tithing" is the best summation of this topic I have ever read. I recommend everyone read it. It is in a quiz format. All of the questions asked are true/false and all the answers are "false." Here are the questions, below. If YOU believe, or are being taught ANY of the answers is TRUE, please read the article and your Bible. It is, indeed, in 'da book.
ReplyDeleteHow much do you really know about tithing? By Roger Sapp
Take the following True or False quiz to see how much your really understand about tithing. We predict that many of you will be surprised. Record your answers.
True or False? 1. The Lord Jesus Christ would have tithed.
True or False? 2. Simon Peter, originally a fisherman, would have tithed of the fish that he caught.
True or False? 3. Everyone in the Old Testament seeking to obey the Law of Moses would have tithed.
True or False 4. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in the same way that believers tithe to the Lord Jesus Christ.
True or False? 5. The Lord Jesus Christ taught His disciples that they should tithe.
True or False? 6. There are many examples of people tithing of their incomes in the Bible.
True or False? 7. The New Testament teaches that we should tithe to ministers in the same way that Jews tithed to the Priests.
True or False? 8. The Bible teaches that God’s standard for giving is ten-percent.
True or False? 9. The righteous poor tithed in the Old Testament.
True or False? 10. Since everyone is held to the same standard, tithing is fair to everyone.
True or False? Bonus Question. The Bible teaches that everyone should give ten-percent of their ongoing income.
When Jesus paid the Temple tax, he did so as to not offend. He told Peter, the 'sons are free'.
ReplyDeleteI simply will not give to maintain a huge building or high salaries. I DO give to help a brother or sister in need and to support serious missions. (Not SBC because that would mean I am helping to pay Paige Patterson's salary, his expansion of 'Pecan Manor' and his pastry chef along with many other ridiculous things.)
Look around you. You see any sisters in Christ who are struggling single moms? Fix her car, pay her rent for a month, etc. Because if she goes to most churches they are beating HER up for tithes when they should be helping her.
Another thing you can do is refuse to be a part of 'updating' the sanctuary or building a new building. Just say NO. plant another church and walk on old carpet. Jesus does not expect the carpet to be new or for the sound system to be state of the art.
Pastor Rod great to have you back. One thing about the bible...it never mentions collections during most of the great revivals...Peter preaching and 3000 added to the church. Cornelius and those saved at his house when visited by Peter and some others. Marriage feast with Jesus turning water into wine. Numerous meetings held by the apostle Paul, Timothy, and Titus. God gave the increase. Church was where they met in a field, at the well, and mostly in small groups. Appears the church of today has got off track and has been told that the building is essential and the bigger the better. Guess what? Bigger is not always better. Get back to basics and just witness Jesus Christ and give your money where it would be better spent is my opinion. These big buildings are just too big and expensive to keep up.
ReplyDeleteFYI: if you are looking for insight regarding matt chandler and tithing,..it is best to start with a series called Heart Matters. 6.03.07 Wk 3 is on 'treasures' but it is set up by week 1 and 2.
ReplyDeletehttp://hv.thevillagechurch.net/sermons
My comment is in response to Anonymous 10:06am. I think this person uses excellent examples when considering why a person should or should not tithe to a church. My opinion will stem from this same approach of whether or not to tithe.
ReplyDeleteLet's take the example of the widower for instance. Anonymous 10:06 did a great job at suggesting what seems to be reasonable circumstances for the widower not to tithe the $60. She needs food, and her medical expenses must be met in order for her life to be sustained. She also probably has to pay rent or a monthly mortgage payment or living fees, depending on what her type of residence and living situation is. All of these and more seem like very good reasons and important obligations to with hold the $60.
Now, keeping her in mind, let's look in the Bible where there is a very similar story. Everyone knows the story of the widower and her two mites. Jesus sat near the treasury and observed people casting in their monies. One of those people was a widow. She too, probably had necessities like our widow does. But all things considered, the widow in the Bible probably faced much more difficult hardship than our imaginative widow does. After all, our widow lives in the modern day, prosperous and plentiful United States.
But what's the difference? Why do we as Christians perceive it ok for the widow in the Bible to empty herself of so much when she had so little, and yet think it wrong for our modern day widow, who has enough and lives a comfortable life compared to the rest of the world, to contribute 10% of her income?
I believe the difference lies in the heart of the person giving. I think the widow in the Bible gave so much because she had a selfless attitude towards the work of the Lord. She was more concerned with how her contributions could be used for the eternal furtherance of God's kingdom than her own temporary satisfaction.
The widow gave all she had! She sacrificed so much because she cared so little about her own contentment. Perhaps, a standard of %10 in our giving to churches is a way to help us stay accountable to giving back to the Lord what he truly deserves.
Truthfully, if our hearts are set on pure motives, we should want to give everything we have to help further God's kingdom. And that includes many more things than just our money.
If our motives are set on advancing the gospel of Jesus Christ, and if we cared more about reaching people with the good news rather than our own self-fulfillment, then maybe giving 10% of our income (which already belongs to God) to a church would not be a problem. It would be an understood obligation.
Just saying :)
10% is a great starting point in giving. In the OT, obedience to the law was the path of salvation. In the NT, obedience to Christ is the path of salvation. The law was exterior in the old, and now interior in the new.
ReplyDeleteSince Christ is now in us (the hope of glory) - giving just 10% seems so small, so faithless, and so legalistic.
I'd challenge the readers today to give 20% next week to the local church, and why not 50% some Sunday. The question is not how much one can afford to give - the question is how much faith do I have in God to be my Provider.
Many people read these articles and say, "Yea! No more 10% giving." And that may be accurate...because perhaps in the NT Age of Grace that we are in, something closer to 25% giving off of gross income is the correct answer!
Chew on that bloggers!
Just my thoughts: Why I tithe-
ReplyDelete1. Every CHURCH must have money enough to support the pastor.
2. We must have a CHURCH to edify the church members.
3. God gave us an example as to how we go about paying for CHURCH bills and that is the tithe.
4. We should tithe and give offerings out of our love of the Lord.
5. Matt. 23:23 even though this is talking to scribes Pharisees, and hypocrites, I think it speakes to all of us. That we should not leave the other{tithe} undone.
6. I believe the tithe and offerings are God's plan for supporting the spreading of the Word and the saving of souls.
7. If we did not support out church, it would simply not have enough money to survive.
8. The tithe is fair. Equal!
9. There simply is no better way of supporting your CHURCH.
10. I could go on but you get my point. I have faith in the system of tithing and I don't need some guy with initials behind his name to tell me about his idea of what God means about tithing.
Just my thoughts.
I tend to think that the depensational change is not only tied cross but also Christ's fulfilling atonement as it relates to the Temple. "Church" is truly tied more to an assembly. The first two tithes deal specifically with the Temple while the third with the welfare of Israel. This priority at Pentecost seems to imply an application of the third.
ReplyDeleteDr. Who even the most disobedient children are not easily discarded. But you are right if they don't repent their protection is removed. Is the nickname from the show. Trial of a Time Lord is one of my favorite.
ReplyDeleteDr Who responds to:
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
Dr. Who even the most disobedient children are not easily discarded. But you are right if they don't repent their protection is removed. Is the nickname from the show. Trial of a Time Lord is one of my favorite.
Answer:
No..my name is associated with the fact that many of these fake Dr's titles are used now in the ministry...especially by Mega Monster Ministers / Pastors who have NO DEGREE whatsoever... except from these Diploma Mills!
so I crowned me one. Why can't I be one too?...
Dr Who :)
Just my thought: Destroying the CHURCH-ASSEMBLY
ReplyDelete1. It seems to me that there are some here that are bent on destroying the local church because there are some very bad church systems out there. True, there are men {good and bad} who have fallen into the trap laid by the PURPOSE DRIVEN apostate system. We shall discuss this further when we look at Matt at the Village Church.
2. By attacking the practice of tithing you are in the process of hurting not only the bad mega churches but many small God led small churches who are struggling financially to survive.
3. Please show me one church who does not preach tithing in the New Testament church. In the most of God led churches they do in fact preach tithing. What say you?
4. Do you, in fact, believe that it is God's plan to go back to small groups assembled in someones home? {even, I am sure, there would be some very fine meetings}
5. Are you willing to take the preaching of tithing out of the local church and see if the churches could survive?
6. Let met say this, I believe the tithe is a level of faith giving. Not a standard but a heart felt idea of how we should look at giving. It would never be my idea to shackel or saddle a poor person with a burden which would harm them. However, a burden in my eyes might be, instead, a burden of love to another who desires to show their faith to the Lord.
7. There are many unregenerate people who would love to cause turmoil amongst us. Let us not play there game.
8. The skeptic is running wild now days. He is in our government demanding the overthrow of our system of government. He is in our bible seminaries watering down our belief in God's Word. Now he is here taking an aim at giving.
9. As for me, I still believe in the divinely inspired, providentially preserved Word of God. In the universal priesthood of men and women like yourselves. And, I believe you are still God led. So stand up and be strong in the Lord.
Just my thoughts
Some people look for ways to get out of tithing or giving to the church. Others look for ways to give more than they ever have before. Which one of these show the heart of a mature follower? I think it is the one who desires to give more than ever before (15%, 20%, +) to the bride of Jesus and His continued ministries on earth through.
ReplyDeleteIf FBC Jax or any other church isn't carrying on ministry (children's sunday school, mission trips, giving to the Cooperative Program, student ministries, food pantries, orphanages) then the option is never to stop giving - the option is to join a church that does ministry and continue to give joyfully (hysterically in Greek actually!) - and consider 10%a small, faithless, legalistic gift. Give all you can, isn't that the lesson of the widow and her mite?
Anon - I'm all for people giving as much as they can to their church - 20% or more, that is great.
ReplyDeleteThis series on tithing has very little to do with the givers. I say give all you can to your church, as well as other worthwhile charities.
This is about the doctrine of tithing that says Christians are obligated to fork over 10% to their church in order to receive the favor of God and man. Its about what is "sin" and what is "obedience" in the matter of stewardship.
This series is about the doctrine of "storehouse tithing", which is clearly not supported in scripture, yet is still taught by pastors who know its not, or should know its not supported in scripture - and worse yet, there are some pastors who are actually beating up their sheep over it. They accuse their congregations of "robbing God" because they don't meet their 10% standard, they belittle them by telling them their financial woes are BECAUSE they are not tithing, and they BRAG about their 10% giving when they're earning comfortable salaries from the very tithes they are beating their sheep over. And some even put the burden of the failing economy on the back of non-tithers, that this is God's judgment on our country because God's people are not forking over 10% to the church. SBC and other denominations never have gotten 10% from their congregations, its consistently been around 2% to 3% for decades and decades from the average church member, good times and bad.
The preaching I have heard from Dr Brunson has not been about putting the "burden of the failing economy on the back of non-tithers". It has been about our society as a whole having a wrong emphasis on and management of money and scoiety's subsequent acculation of debt. It seems to me that your statement once again comes down to however you want to twist Dr. Brunson's words.
ReplyDeleteI Tim 6:10 "For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." NASB
Well, since you brough up Brunson, here is his quote from this past summer:
ReplyDelete"Have you ever stopped to think that this whole economic mess in America is not really the cause of Wall Street or the cause of the White House or the cause of Congress, but it might be an act of God on this nation? Would you agree with that, that this very well may be the judgement of God on this nation - the economic difficulty?
Let me give you one that you're not gonna amen:
Have you ever thought that the reason God's put us in an economic difficulty in this nation is because God's people won't prove him with their tithe? Well, more of you amened it than I thought. But I guarantee you somebody's not going to like it. I'm not so sure we're not in the situation we're in because God's people WILL not prove God with the tithe."
You're trying to cover for your pastor's words. You have to hand it to him, he doesn't beat around the bush. He very directly says that is likely this economic mess is an "act of God".
He went even farther last fall as well, in relation to gas prices and the "wrecking" of our economy, that it was God working behind the scenes to bring it about to wake up our nation.
Again, you do have to give Brunson credit, he says it like he sees it.
It would be an understood obligation.
ReplyDeleteJust saying :)
November 18, 2009 4:23 PM
___________________________________
Pretty good post and rationale, but when you use the word "obligation" at the end of it, you just contradicted everything you had just written. That widow was not told by Jesus to give that money. She was not "obligated" to give "all" and it certainly had nothing to do with the "tithe."
As a matter of fact, Jesus called the pharisees hypocrites because they DID tithe but were sinning in other areas.
Nice story and good example of someone who did give it all. This is new testament giving. I agree. But where does the word "obligation" come from?
I have no problem with someone giving it all to a church, to the moose club, or to the Gators, if they choose to. The abuse, and lack of integrity, and false teaching, comes into play when a trusted preacher would tell that widow she is OBLIGATED to TITHE.
And one final thought...in those days, widows were taken care of by their family and the temple community. In these days, the widow is neglected so we can "fund operations" and have "men's prayer groups" and increase our media advertising. AND we tell that widow to give whatever she has to the church budget. AND we tell that widow's family NOT to help her, but to give "to God" instead. (Of course "God" has the local church budget as his agent to receive the cash and gifts right?)
Pathetic and sick. But at least this story also tells us that Jesus DOES see what is going on. And HE will hold those staffers who are robbing God and robbing the widows, accountable.
I'd challenge the readers today to give 20% next week to the local church, and why not 50% some Sunday. The question is not how much one can afford to give - the question is how much faith do I have in God to be my Provider.
ReplyDeleteMany people read these articles and say, "Yea! No more 10% giving." And that may be accurate...because perhaps in the NT Age of Grace that we are in, something closer to 25% giving off of gross income is the correct answer!
Chew on that bloggers!
___________________________________
I agree 100%. So why doesn't Mac Brunson preach it...OR, why does he openly brag that he only gives 10% and then bragged that he would "tithe on the tithe."
I am chewing on that for awhile, blogger.
Just my thoughts: Why I tithe-
ReplyDeletePLEASE ALLOW ME TO RESPOND TO YOUR LIST:
1. Every CHURCH must have money enough to support the pastor. (AGREED. BUT WHEN THEY HAVE MILLIONS, AND CUT MINISTRY, ISN'T THERE A PROBLEM?)
2. We must have a CHURCH to edify the church members. (THE BIBLE DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR REASON FOR WHY THE CHURCH EXISTS. IF THE CHURCH WOULD FOCUS ON THE REAL REASONS OTHER THAN EDIFYING "SELF", MORE PEOPLE MIGHT GIVE.)
3. God gave us an example as to how we go about paying for CHURCH bills and that is the tithe.(WRONG. NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE, OT OR NT, CAN THAT EXAMPLE BE FOUND, AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, ASK YOUR PASTOR OR DEACON TO SHOW YOU WHERE IT IS.)
4. We should tithe and give offerings out of our love of the Lord. (WRONG AGAIN. JESUS SAID TO HELP THE POOR, WIDOW, ORPHANS, SEEK JUSTICE, MAKE DISCIPLES, ETC. HE DID NOT SAY "IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL GIVE 10% OF YOUR INCOME TO HELP A LOCAL CONGREGATION BUILD BIGGER BUILDINGS AND HIRE STAFF.)
5. Matt. 23:23 even though this is talking to scribes Pharisees, and hypocrites, I think it speakes to all of us. That we should not leave the other{tithe} undone. (YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS BEING RELEVANT TO THOSE WHO WERE SCRIBES, PHARISEES AND HYPOCRITES. IT STILL IS!)
6. I believe the tithe and offerings are God's plan for supporting the spreading of the Word and the saving of souls. (YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED. NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DOES IT SAY THIS. "If my people, who are called by my name, will calculate 10% of their income and give it to me, than...)
7. If we did not support out church, it would simply not have enough money to survive. (AGAIN, YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED. GOD WILL ALWAYS PROVIDE THROUGH THE GENEROUS GIFTS OF HIS PEOPLE. TELLING PEOPLE THEY ARE OBLIGATED TO TITHE IS A LIE AND SHOWS NO FAITH BY THE LEADERS. I HAVE BEEN IN CHURCHES WITH $500k BUDGETS, $1.5 MILLION DOLLAR BUDGETS, AND AN $18 MILLION DOLLAR BUDGET. THEY ALL SAID THE SAME THING "IF WE HAD MORE MONEY WE COULD MINISTER. ALL OF OUR MONEY IS GOING TO SUPPORT OUR OPERATIONS. AND WHEN THEY GOT MORE MONEY, THEY HIRED MORE STAFF, GAVE PAY RAISES, AND STARTED BUILDING!)
8. The tithe is fair. Equal! (SEE THE COMMENT ABOVE ABOUT WHY THIS IS NOT FAIR. THE SINGLE MOM TITHES AND HAS NO MONEY LEFT TO PROVIDE FOR HER FAMILY'S BASIS NEEDS. MAC BRUNSON TITHES AND HAS $27,300 LEFT EACH MONTH. THIS IS NOT EQUAL IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. WAKE UP!)
9. There simply is no better way of supporting your CHURCH.(THEN WHY DOESN'T THE BIBLE TELL US TO DO IT? WHY WON'T MAC OR JIM SMYRL TEACH IT FROM THE SCRIPTURE? IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE AND THEY KNOW IT.)
10. I could go on but you get my point. I have faith in the system of tithing and I don't need some guy with initials behind his name to tell me about his idea of what God means about tithing.(WHAT DO YOU NEED TO HAVE "FAITH" IN THE SYSTEM? SOME MILLIONAIRE LIKE MAC TELLING YOU "ITS IN DA BOOK?" ITS NOT IN THE BOOK. DON'T BE AFRAID TO STUDY AND TRUST GOD IN THIS AREA. THEN GIVE 10% IF YOU LIKE, OR 20% OR MORE. BUT DON'T BE DECEIVED. DON'T THINK YOU ARE OBLIGATED AND DON'T THINK YOU ARE MORE SPIRITUAL AND DON'T THINK THE CHURCH CAN'T SURVIVE WITHOUT THIS FALSE TEACHING.
Just my thoughts.
(THANK YOU. MY GUESS IS YOU SPEAK FOR MILLIONS WHO BELIEVE EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. AND GAINES, BRUNSON, DUPLANTIS, OSTEEN, AND OTHERS GET RICHER AND RICHER AND OUR FOOD BANKS, HOMELESS SHELTERS, ORPHANS AND WIDOWS GO WITHOUT.
Interestingly enough "doctor" in its French origin had to deal with one who was a teacher teaching doctrines. It would be equivalent to calling one rabbi.
ReplyDelete5. Are you willing to take the preaching of tithing out of the local church and see if the churches could survive?
ReplyDelete_________________________________
Are you willing for "God's man" to actually preach the truth and see if the churches could survive? Or better to keep lying to them since the budget we have isn't enough to support the buildings and staff so we have to lie to them and tell them they are obligated to give a percentage of their gross income. Wake up. Take the $18 million budget and start ministering. It may mean the nepotism, Danube river cruises, and preaching gigs have to be curtailed, but yes, I believe God can get his work done on $18 million per year without beating the sheep for more.
9. As for me, I still believe in the divinely inspired, providentially preserved Word of God. In the universal priesthood of men and women like yourselves. And, I believe you are still God led. So stand up and be strong in the Lord.
ReplyDelete_________________________________
Sounds good. Now show me where that preserved Word of God says anything even remotely about me giving ten percent of my paycheck to the local assembly/gathering of believers.
The Tith!
ReplyDeleteOur family loves to GIVE our tith, and do so out of love for the Lord and have abundantly been blessed.
But the day has come that no longer do we feel called to support the millionaire pastor at FBC, or others like Johnny Hunt and those in the SBC like him who boldly fly in their private planes, stay in luxery hotels, eat in fine restaurants, wear their monogram shirts, wear custum made suits, go on world wide tours, live in gated communities, have their personal body guards. hire their family & personal friends for positions that they are not qualified for and the list goes on.
With love we will give our monies to the missionaries and small time preachers who know and preach the word, who are just as good . .we strongly believe in the TITH, but no longer will give to the greediness at the Bank of First Baptist.
Thanks WD, for a place to vent!
Believer in Tithing.
Great quote by commentor "Arce" on the Wartburg blog:
ReplyDelete"In some churches, a tithe is set out as a guideline, rather than a mandate, for giving through the church and its ministries. A tithe is also commonly taught by financial people -- to be financially healthy, one needs to plan to save 10%, give away 10%, and restrict one's spending to the other 80%, according to the experts. But these are guidelines, not mandates.
My remark is that the tithe is really the easiest amount to give, if one is giving systematically. It is easy to compute and set aside for giving.
We need to remember that all that we have, including our ability to work and earn, is a gift from God, and that we have a stewarship responsibility for the total, not just some smaller portion.
BTW, some people give of their time in ways that reduce their incomes substantially or work in positions of service to others at reduced pay. Perhaps they are tithing or more on the front end, rather than on the back end!!!
=================
Great points by Arce. I realize many churches don't teach the false "storehouse tithing" doctrine that one must give 10% to be in fellowship with God and their fellow churchmen...some pastors have the integrity to speak of the tithe as a "guideline" or a "recommended starting point" for giving, and don't beat their sheep to compel them to fork over the 10%. They don't go as far as being completely honest with their people that the tradition of requiring Christians to tithe is completely unsupported in scripture, but they would never dare to use the tithing requirement beat the sheep to maximize revenue.
"If we did not support out church, it would simply not have enough money to survive."
ReplyDelete...and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Please read Acts 4 and look at how the 'Body' was supported. To Whom did that 'support' go to?
Read the letters. Why was Paul so anxious about the offering he was carrying to another Body?
In effect, your thinking is backwards. We do not see the Holy Spirit move because our churches are too rich. And that makes us poor in spirit.
It would do you good to visit a third world true Body of Christ. (Most are not SBC which pours money into buildings and has what is commonly known as 'rice Christians')
Try listening to Paul Washer's Prayer Journal for an example of what I am talking about. You might also want to read about George Mueller who saw the Holy Spirit move almost every day of his life. He never once asked for money. He just prayed and needs were met through others that were also praying. Of course, they were not met to his human specifications and never more than he needed for the orphans.
That would be a problem for most of us, wouldn't it? We would want security. Would we get weary day after day praying for our basic needs? But security means we do not depend on God. It is that simple and we are worse off for it. You can even read about us in Revelation.
Matt
Tithing is an OT doctrine...pure and simple. It is NOT a NT requirement....pure and simple. Preachers that put OT doctrine in the NT church are dispensationally out of order...pure and simple. So why do they preach incorrect doctrine? Greed...pure and simple. And they know that most members don't known much about their Bibles, certainly not enough to argue with them, so...on with the legacy...tithe under OT doctrine to your NT church.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I wonder if a preacher has ever checked a members giving record before said preacher took any particular action for or against said member? I just wonder about that.
Matt is back! Yes!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous @ 8:20 a.m.
ReplyDeleteMost certainly you are not a scholar of scripture. The NT does speak of tithing, Jesus speaks of tithing. Jesus supports tithing, but not at the expense of justice, mercy and love.
OT doctrine is not void in light on the NT, Jesus came as a fulfillment of the law, not the destruction of it. The only thing that is "reversed" under the new covenant is the way to salvation, atonement, righteousness and peace with God. We are free from the curse of the law, but we are not free from the Word of the Lord...if so, you are saying that God's word doesn't stand forever.
And in actuality, the NT lense on giving is heavier than the OT. In the NT we are to give as we have been given to by God, in the NT we are to set aside money "in keeping with our income." - most certainly that denotes a percentage, not an amount!
And of course your last statement is what scripture calls "speculation" - and it is a sign of spiritual inmaturity.
Jesus came as a fulfillment of the law, not the destruction of it. The only thing that is "reversed" under the new covenant is the way to salvation, atonement, righteousness and peace with God.
ReplyDelete__________________________________
November 19, 2009 8:58 PM - okay, I'll bite...where does it say, in the OT or NT, that I am obligated to give a percentage of my income to a local congregation of believers? And you sound like you want to revive the OT Mosaic law except for where it applies to salvation? Are you serious? Really. Where to begin. Start on that list. Maybe some Pharisees is what we need today? And a few more stones laying around.
You sir, are dangerous. No wonder non-believers are so hostile towards so called Christians. That kind of thinking would lead to crusades, burning of "witches", martyring anyone who read their Bible, oh that already happened? In the name of "God" too? Maybe even exterminate some Jews?
Yeah, let's go down that path in an effort to try and rationalize tithing based on the tribes of Israel suporting the Levites/Priests. And their system of taxation to support their nation and their blood sacrifices... And women should not speak in the church, and they should keep their heads covered, and slaves should obey there masters. Preach it, my scary fundamentalist purveyor of sickening doctrine. Preach it! And watch the women submit and the money come in. Then go on your Danube River cruise and high five each other.
Anon 8:58. You are wrong. You are entitled to your opinion as I am as well. As a Bible student for over 60 years and as a member of the priesthood of believers my statements are based on studying my Bible and understanding the Word for many years. You would have us believe in "legalism" and works which is tithing and other ordinances which were REQUIRED under the OT. Tithing is NOT REQUIRED in the NT. We are under Grace, not OT LAW. Possibly you need to consult another scholar. As a matter of fact, I have had the benefit of studying many scholars. You notice I did not say "under" these scholars. I studied the "scholars" themselves, very revealing as to why they "preach" what they do. Most are self-professed scholars, and it is THEY who think THEY are scholars. I have found that Bible study on ones own will reveal much, with the help of the Holy Spirit. As to your pronouncement that I suffer from spiritual immaturity, I would enlighten you considerably, but prefer to keep my anonymity. Nice try though.
ReplyDeleteP.S. YOU misspelled immaturity.
1 Cor.1:27: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty". I prefer to be a sinner saved by Grace, through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, and known as such than to be a "scholar" any day.
Also, Paul, who was the apostle to the Gentiles never mentioned or intimated the use of the TITHE to churches. This OT doctrine stopped after Grace. One may give as much as he/she wishes even to all they have, but it is not required in the form of a TITHE.
Wow, Anon at 8:58,
ReplyDeleteLet the peace of Christ rule your heart brother. James 1:20, Col 3:15, and Phil 4:7. You are fairly wound up.
Tithing is mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 23 and Luke 11...that tithing must be done with love and mercy.
And the Mosiac law of course is still in effect, unless you want to overturn the 10 Commandments. Jesus even said that those laws hinge on his two new commandments. Of course Leviticus 27:30 isn't Mosiac law!
There are Pharisees around today, they are actually in Tiberias and they are practicing the slaughter of the red heifer - preparing for the 3rd temple to be built.
You have no theology or doctrine based on the Old Testament at all? Then you are missing the Word of the Lord in its full council. Jesus quoted extensively from the OT - for it was the Word of God. Jesus used the OT to fight the Enemy.
Giving to the local church, on a Sunday is supported in the NT: I Cor 16:1-2, II Cor 9:7, II Cor 8:7. These are all words to the local body of believers to give.
The question is not how little do I have to give, the question is how much can I give?
The OT law was in force during the time Jesus was on earth. Simply because He had not yet gone to the Cross. After He accomplished Grace at the Cross, then we have a new covenant. OT tithing is not required in the New covenant! No one is negating the OT value, all that is being said is the NT covenant CHANGED many doctrines from law to Grace. We don't practice sacrifices in the temple today for forgiveness of sins. Jesus was the sin offering for us. We are not bound by OT law. Please, people stop putting the church (NT-Grace) back under the OT LAW!!!!!
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:39,
ReplyDeleteIf you really have been a bible student for 60 years, it must have been fairly light studying.
Tithing isn't legalism, unless it is done to earn God's favor, love and His salvation. Obedience is following God's command as a response to His Lordship and His Grace.
No where did I say you had to tithe to gain God's favor. But I say again that Jesus supported tithing, with the attitude of love and mercy. Read your gospels!
And if you want to play spelling games, you misspelled "ones" - you actually need an apostrophe there. But I consider that legalism myself - I'll give you grace for pointing out my mistake when you have one yourself.
Anon 8:14
ReplyDeleteWith this post I'm not saying that a person who "tithes" as defined by the mnodern church (which is giving 1/10 of your income to your local church) is legalism, or wrong, or anything of the sort. Give as you purpose in your heart to give, and do it cheerfully and make sure the money is being used for God's kingdom. Give 10%, give 50%. As you purpose in your heart, give.
But I'm saying that pastors who preach the tithing doctrine as a requirement, that a church member is obligated by God Almighty to tithe, and that this tithe MUST go to their local church, and that they MUST do this to enjoy the blessings of God, and to be in fellowship with other Christians, and pastors that declare a non-tither to be sinning against God, THAT is wrong, its false doctrine. And I'll lump in pastors who stand and say that those who DON'T agree that the tithe applies under the new covenant are "doing the work of Satan" - again, false doctrine. At worst its an intentional lie, at best its a marketing gimmick, a fund-raising technique. Call it what you want, but there is no scripture that supports the idea that a person is in sin, out of fellowship with God and fellow Christians, if they don't fork over 1/10 of their income to their local church.
If a pastor teaches the 1/10 as a recommended guideline, or as perhaps a starting point for giving, or a goal to be reached, etc, OK. But I'm speaking specifically about pastors who have been to seminary, who know their Bible forwards and backwards, who tell people the tithe is required, and that the tithe is 10%, and that those who don't are not in God's will and are sinning...they should be called out for their false teaching.
Lesson #1: The Old Testament is not law! The Levitical Law and Mosiac Law are found in the OT, but that is a fraction of the OT.
ReplyDeleteLesson #2: New Testament believers are still bound to the Word of the Lord in the Old Testament...and the Mosiac Law of the Commands. Since the NT NEVER says "You should not kill" does that mean we are under grace to do so?
Lesson #3: Legalism is abiding by a man-made code to reach God. Obedience is a response to God's grace that leads us to follow His commands. We obey His commands because we are saved, not to be saved! (I John 2:3-4)
Lesson #4: Jesus approves tithing, he does not condemn it. Please stop saying that tithing is an OT principle only.
Lesson #5: 10% tithing can be legalistic...but more than that it is faithless, small and immature. 10% was commanded in the OT, but 100% is demanded in the NT.
Lesson #6: Grace did not begin in the NT after the Cross!!! Grace began in the Garden!
9:15 These are your personal opinions...I deal with Biblical facts. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:33,
ReplyDeleteThat is always such a childish way to back out of a discussion..."those are your opinions...I deal with facts!" Oh brother.
Give me your biblical facts to refute those points Mr. Anon 9:15.
Here are mine:
1. Hebrews 8:13 makes the Mosiac Covenant obsolete, not the OT. Matthew 5:17 is proof that the OT is not obsolete. Jesus restated OT law in Matt 17:18-19, and often intensified it, Matt 5:21-22.
2. Proverbs 30:5 says God's Word is flawless. Isaiah 40:8 says God's Word stands forever. Are those truths obsolete because they are OT doctrines? Absolutely not.
3. Read I John 2:3-5. Does that not say that our obedience to the Law of God is proof of our regenerated hearts?
4. Jesus spoke of tithing, with love and mercy in Luke 11:42 and Matthew 23:23. He NEVER puts down tithing, only tithing without love.
5. Surely you agree with this, but how about Acts 2, Luke 12:33, I Tim 6:10, Mark 10:21, Acts 4:34.
6. Old Testament Grace: God said eat of the tree and you will "surely die!" (Genesis 2:17) and yet God allowed Adam and Eve to live and begin again outside the garden. Isn't grace the unmerited favor of God?
So there is my biblical basis 9:33 Anon - give me your words.
November 19, 10:40 a.m. - you should use a screen name so we cn engage your posts in a more organized manner. I might suggest "liar" or "manipulator" would be a good one. You actually wrote "Tithing is mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 23 and Luke 11...that tithing must be done with love and mercy." Sir, that is an outright lie. Period. Please try and support or explain your lie by showing us where he says "tithing must be done with love and mercy" AND that it must be done by the new testament church member, AND that when it is done by the NT church member under compulsion and under the law, that the tithe must go to the local assembly.
ReplyDeleteDo you really believe this? Or are you just hoping some gullible tither will read your comment and say "yeah, that is true. Jesus did say that. Where is my checkbook."
No one, sir. No one. Even those that tithe for other reasons, would support your lie. Why do you come here to lie? Just wondering.
Giving to the local church, on a Sunday is supported in the NT: I Cor 16:1-2, II Cor 9:7, II Cor 8:7. These are all words to the local body of believers to give.
ReplyDeleteThe question is not how little do I have to give, the question is how much can I give?
November 19, 2009 10:40 PM
_________________________________
On this I agree. But don't you see the contradiction with you saying that JESUS SAID I MUST TITHE?
I believe the Bible does support giving to the local church on Sunday morning. And not how little I must give (a tithe). So why do you still try to say Jesus said I must tithe. And why does Mac say I am obligated to tithe. And why would he brag that he only gives 10%? What kind of example does that set for others who are giving much more than that or who are feeling led to give more than that?
You guys need to figure out what you believe. If the 10% ("tithe") is an obligation, a "must", and we are not doing it...well that is sin and the discipline committee needs to confront every non-tither. And to know for sure who who is and isn't tithing, the church needs pay stubs and tax returns. So let's get those turned in to John Blount. ASAP.
Lesson #4: Jesus approves tithing, he does not condemn it. Please stop saying that tithing is an OT principle only.
ReplyDeleteLesson #5: 10% tithing can be legalistic...but more than that it is faithless, small and immature. 10% was commanded in the OT, but 100% is demanded in the NT.
__________________________________
RE: Lesson #4 - Not true. Not even close. Read the articles, the link on this blog to the "truth about tithing." You are either a liar, or just very confused. By your logic, I can argut that Jesus supported slavery and did not condemn it.(And thanks for not using Malachi as your proof text. At least you have not bought that lie.)
Lesson #5: I agree. Which is why I see Mac Brunson as "faithless, small and immature." Since "10% was commanded in the OT, but 100% is demanded in the NT." and he admitted HE only gives 10%. (And when time really get tough, he reaches into the $27,000 buffer/margin of his and gives an additional 1% he likes to call "a tithe on the tithe."
November 20, 2009 10:03 AM - okay, I see now that you are just confused. I apologize for calling you a liar.
ReplyDeletePlease accept my apologies. I see that you have reached a sincere conclusion, have likely practiced, if not preached, tithing for many years, and you have done a good job of pulling scripture out of context to try and say that tithing is required, and is supported by Jesus.
I still don't see your view as logical with other scripture that says he was talking to Pharisees under the law at the time he said not neglect the former, that he pointed out the widow's mite to let them know a better way, that the NT is clear about not giving under compulsion, equally clear about giving what each has purposed in his own heart to give, and that some arbitrary number like 10%, shows a lack of faith (especially coming from millionaire preachers)
I think we agree on more than you might think, but your conclusions are contradictory. You can't have it both ways. Either we under the OT law (like "thou shalt not murder") and so not tithing is a sin (like murdering would be), and all non-tithers should be subject to church discipline and those that should be giving much more, can feel self righteous even though they are actually robbing God by only giving 10%. And of course, if you really believe the OT still applies, then you must teach that the NT Christian that does not tithe is "under a curse."
You can't have it both ways. Is the OT legalistic practice of tithing mandatory for the NT believer or is it not? Figure it out and preach it. Mac does. We know where he stands. No man has been any clearer that it is an obligation and if you don't believe it the economy will suffer, gas prices will go up, and if you think otherwise you are doing the work of Satan. So like those Pharisees, he gives his 10% and makes sure the whole world knows. Perhaps Jesus would have corrected him too?
I will put a name down then, perhaps that will be more helpful. But your suggestion of "liar" and "manipulator" sure show the darkness of your heart and your spirit of unkindness. I will just stick to my name and last initial - Jon G.
ReplyDeleteMr Anon 10:53 and Mr Anon 11:13 (perhaps one in the same). Let me help you with a few corrections.
1) Matthew 23:23 "You give your tithe-mint, dill, and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, while practicing the former." There is Jesus talking about tithing.
2) Luke 11:42 "You should have practiced the love of God, without neglecting the tithe." There is Jesus talking about tithing.
So I will accept your apology on your insult of calling me a liar by saying that Jesus did speak to and not against the tithe - only that love and mercy are not forgotten.
If your conclusions are correct Mr. Watchdog, that church goers only give 2-3%, then a pastor preaching 10% should be praised as a preacher who holds a high standard of giving to his people. Remember it is NT doctrine that when you give it will be given to you.
Lastly, Mr Anon 11:13. I am shocked that you would call Malachi 3:10 a lie. Every word of the Lord is flawless, that sounds like something the two of you need to take up together.
Gladly,
Jon G.
Jon G - your comment to me:
ReplyDeleteI agree. A pastor putting forth a standard of 10%, great. But not if that pastor uses guilt tactics, and accuses people of robbing God, and that they are out of fellowship with God and with their brothers and sisters in Christ unless they give the magic 10% number...then that is not holding forth a high standard, that is false teaching. And worse if he KNOWS it is false, but continues to preach it out of fear of what might happen to his weekly take if he told the truth about what scripture really says about Christian giving.
FBC Jax Dog,
ReplyDeletePerhaps what you hear as guilt is actually conviction.
Can you point to me a sermon by Dr. Brunson or another one of the attacked pastors where they "accuse people of robbing God, and that they are out of fellowship with God and with their brothers and sisters in Christ unless they give the magic 10% number."
I have a feeling you are using hyperbole to get across your point Mr. Watchdog.
And actually it is not a pastor who says you are robbing God, it is God who says "you are robbing Me" in Malachi 3:8.
And since Jesus said that if we "give, it will be given back to us multiplied." Luke 6:38...doesn't it make sense for a pastor to ask his people to give as much as possible?
Jon G
Anon 8:14. Naturally, Jesus believed in OT tithing> HE was the one who instituted it. However, after his death it no longer applies. Check out the Pauline record, you will never find tithe, or tithing in those epistles. They apply to us, not the Jews that applies prior to the NT.
ReplyDeleteWhat applies to the Jews tithing, circumcism, feast days, etc does not, again, I say does not apply to the Gentile Church!!!
Jon G - thanks for accepting my apology. I meant it sincerely.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your points 1) and (2), Jesus was clearly speaking to the Pharisees who were attempting to justify themselves under the law. To those legalistic Pharisees, he was pointing out their hypocrisy. To them, yes, they should give their tithe. He is NOT talking to Christians there, and what he told them does not apply to us as born again believers. You know that, don't you?
I never said Malachi was a lie. I said for preachers to say that applies to NT believers and that it means they have to give 10% of their income to a local fellowship of believers, is a flat out lie. You know about context, I assume.
Saying we should tithe because he told those Pharisees to not neglect it would be like arguing we should also be doing the rest of the verse: "You give your tithe-mint, dill, and cummin." Always it was about crops and livestock. Never about cash. You know this, I assume.
I don't blame you for trying. And no, my heart is not dark. I was once where you are now. Deceived. And yes, I see clearly now and will continue to question those that apply scripture out of context to try and get more money in their coffers to "fund operations" while they cut ministry.
Jon G - did you take the quiz posted above at November 18, 2009 7:55 PM?
ReplyDeleteWhat say ye? Where is it in error?
Jon G - did you take the quiz posted above at November 18, 2009 7:55 PM?
ReplyDeleteWhat say ye? Where is it in error?
Jon G,
ReplyDeleteShould I go out and buy mint and dill and "tithe" them to my church?
Jon G,
ReplyDeleteWhy didn't Paul tell the believers to give 10% when he took up an offering for the persecuted believers in Jerusalem?
Barnabus sold his entire estate. That was not 'tithing' either.
In your examples, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees before the Law was fulfilled perfectly by HIM and before the Cross!
There is no 'tithe' in the New Covenant. The NC teaches us to sell everything and help a brother in need.
Are you a preacher who lives off what you call tithes?
By the way, there are no Levite Priests to give the 'tithe' to. Nor are there any temple storehouses to put the first fruits tithe into.
The 'Temple' is now US where God is supposed to reside. Our offerings are to help other brothers and sisters in Christ and to send others out to share the Gospel. Not to build fancy buildings and pay hired hands to worship for us.
Jon - yes, Mac Brunson of all preachers is crystal clear in his tithing teaching. Those that teach it is not required are doing the work of Satan. I posted audio and video clips galore, you need to find them here.
ReplyDeleteHe has said that our economy crash is an act of God for failure of God's people to tithe.
He as said those who don't tithe are out of fellowship with their fellow church members.
And it is under his leadership that FBC Jax promotes cruises down the Danube River with the pastor and his wife, aboard a luxury riverboat, and then charge Christian ministries large fees to have their ministry displaced on their santuary image screens during their Pastor's Conference.
Watchdog, you mean like this Video Clip ?
ReplyDelete-
Wow, so many questions.
ReplyDelete1. I took the quiz and found it interesting...not always accurate, but interesting. The bible never says, "Jesus didn't tithe." The Bible never says "Peter didn't tithe." Yes Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe, but he also told the Pharisees not to babble in their prayers, that husband and wife were of one flesh, and give to Caesar what is Caesar - are you saying that those words apply to Pharisees only? Of course not - to all NT beleivers!!
2. You say Paul doesn't say tithing, and of course I fully agree - instead he mentions that EVERYONE should give, we should give each Sunday, and that it would cause us to prosper. Also that our giving should keep with our income (that is a percentage!!).
3. You say Paul doesn't mention tithing, therefore it is void. Paul also doesn't mention dressing up for church, Wednesday night prayer gathering, and committees - are these wrong? He doesn't mention abortion or a condemnation of slavery, does that make it right? Of course not.
4. Here is my bottom line (and I am not a preacher, but an elder) - many people jump on the "Tithing is not in the NT" bandwagon and rejoice that they don't have to give. And the NT says just the opposite - we should give so much more than our veiled forefathers of the OT.
5. Many of your bloggers need to rip the OT out of the bibles, they feel that they are no longer under its authority nor commands. The ONLY thing we are no longer under is Levitical law and Mosaic law that speaks to salvation. And that is only roughly 1.5% of the OT.
"The Bible never says "Peter didn't tithe." Yes Jesus told the Pharisees to continue to tithe, but he also told the Pharisees not to babble in their prayers, that husband and wife were of one flesh, and give to Caesar what is Caesar - are you saying that those words apply to Pharisees only? Of course not - to all NT beleivers!!"
ReplyDeleteJon, You have a context problem. You ignore context.
"2. You say Paul doesn't say tithing, and of course I fully agree - instead he mentions that EVERYONE should give, we should give each Sunday, and that it would cause us to prosper. Also that our giving should keep with our income (that is a percentage!!)."
Where does it say anything about giving on Sunday? BTW: Did the widow giving her mites cause her to prosper? How are you defining 'prosper'?
"3. You say Paul doesn't mention tithing, therefore it is void. Paul also doesn't mention dressing up for church, Wednesday night prayer gathering, and committees - are these wrong? He doesn't mention abortion or a condemnation of slavery, does that make it right? Of course not."
Tithing is different from giving an offering. The tithes in the Old Covenant do not add up to 10% They add up to about 37%.
". Here is my bottom line (and I am not a preacher, but an elder) - many people jump on the "Tithing is not in the NT" bandwagon and rejoice that they don't have to give. And the NT says just the opposite - we should give so much more than our veiled forefathers of the OT. "
You need to step down as an elder. You do not know enough scripture in context to be one.
". Many of your bloggers need to rip the OT out of the bibles, they feel that they are no longer under its authority nor commands. The ONLY thing we are no longer under is Levitical law and Mosaic law that speaks to salvation. And that is only roughly 1.5% of the OT."
The fact you would say that only proves you need to step down as an elder. You simply do not understand the progressive hermeneutic of the Word. The OT is extremely important. That changes nothing about the tithes being for the Jews in the Old Covenant and Jesus fullfilling the Law perfectly.
You are simply calling offerings, tithes, and putting a percentage from the OC on it. If you want to be consistent put the entire tithe percentage on it.
As an elder, you are getting by cheap with 10%.
"The ONLY thing we are no longer under is Levitical law and Mosaic law that speaks to salvation."
ReplyDeleteJon, your biblical ignorance as an elder is astounding. No one was saved by the Law because no one kept the Law perfectly until Jesus Christ.
You had better rip the book of Hebrews out of your Bible, too, because it says that those saved in the Old Covenant were saved by faith.
Anon 8:33,
ReplyDeleteFirst, it would be nice to know a name instead of you hiding behind Anonymous.
Second, I never wrote that you were saved by the law in the NT! Only that the Mosiac law gave a way to salvation through obedience in the OT - and yes, it was impotent. No one obeyed it.
Third, tell me which parts of the Old Testament that we are to still obey? None? What you want? Some? We are still responsible for all things in the OT except for Levitical law and Mosaic law unto salvation.
I would suggest you taking a good systematic theology class from a conservative seminary (Masters, DTS, Wheaton)
Jon
"First, it would be nice to know a name instead of you hiding behind Anonymous."
ReplyDeleteJust call me Publius
"econd, I never wrote that you were saved by the law in the NT!"
I did not suggest that you did. You equated the Levitical Law and Mosaic Law to leading to salvation. That is not true.
"Only that the Mosiac law gave a way to salvation through obedience in the OT - and yes, it was impotent. No one obeyed it."
Not true that it gave a way to salvation in the Old Covenant.
Salvation has always been by faith. The Law was added because of transgressions.
It acted as a tutor (a slave that followed children around and made sure they did not get into trouble). It showed them how sinful they were and caused them to have to think about God all the time.
Moses did not follow the Law perfectly yet He was saved. Rahab the harlot was saved by faith. Not by following the law. The law did not lead her to salvation.
The Law showed them how sinful they were and regulated their behavior.
"hird, tell me which parts of the Old Testament that we are to still obey? None? What you want? Some? We are still responsible for all things in the OT except for Levitical law and Mosaic law unto salvation."
Which parts are repeated in the New Covenant? There is your answer.
'iwould suggest you taking a good systematic theology class from a conservative seminary (Masters, DTS, Wheaton)"
ST has a place but unfortuantly it has replaced the Holy Spirit for many who love to follow the precepts of mere men.
BTW: Many seminaries are wastelands.
I would suggest you put Grudem or the others down and pray for the Holy Spirit to be your interpreter of the Word. After all, you really do believe there is an OC 'tithe'
command in the New Covenant. ST has not done a lot for your understanding of the Cross.
Publius
Anon 8:28,
ReplyDeleteonce again, I encourage you to come out of hiding and at least give us a first name. I did.
Let me help you understand some my points with scripture - there are certainly some that you do not understand.
1) There is not a context problem with Jesus's words to the Pharisees. People who cry "context!" really are crying "I don't like that verse!" Of course many of the words that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees are relevant and applicable to NT believers...I already gave you examples of that.
2) You are really uninformed on Paul's instruction for giving. Let me quote it for you since it is an unfamiliar passage to you. I Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of every week (Sun) each one of you is to put aside in keeping with his income (an amount or percentage) and save, as he may prosper (so that God might bless) so that no collection will be needed for me." Does that help Mr. Anon?
3) You finally support my point...10% in the OT (and yes farmers and animal herders paid a different amount) is but a wise starting point in the NT. The Lord has led me to give 25% of my gross to the Lord through His church every week. Since you don't know my last name, I can express that to you.
4) You incorrectly state though that the tithe is tossed in the NT. In law we call it, "A priori" (ahead of experience), couldn’t we assume a law is in force until specifically abolished? Why do you think Mr Anon that tithing is no longer God's directive for us as His followers?
Jon
Luke 6:38...doesn't it make sense for a pastor to ask his people to give as much as possible?
ReplyDeleteJon G
__________________________________
Yes it does. So why don't they do that and quit telling people to tithe and that its in da book. It's not.
Anon 8:14. Naturally, Jesus believed in OT tithing> HE was the one who instituted it. However, after his death it no longer applies. Check out the Pauline record, you will never find tithe, or tithing in those epistles.
ReplyDelete__________________________________
Wrong! There is no OT tithing as that term is being defined today. No one, none, gave a percentage of their wages to any body of believers. Farmers gave crops and livestock so there would be food for the Levite priests, who would then give to the community in need. Never did anyone give 10% of their wages. Please stop saying they did, that Jesus set it up, that Jesus supports that. The "tithe" of the OT to the Levite priests, is far different than a believe giving 10% of his gross income to a body of believers' budget for their expenses. (and yes, the occasional real ministry to others out of what is left over, if any.)
Your idiocy is seen again. "gosh darn it, how can you expect us to reach the lost when you stupid sheep are keeping 98% of your income!!" First, your derivative foul language is just as bad as the real thing. Second, it is not our income. It is 100% the Lords and we are simply stewards of what He provides. Hence the problem. You are a pride problem. You think you are the Lord and King of your life or income and you simply do not trust God and His Word.
ReplyDeleteWhat applies to the Jews tithing, circumcism, feast days, etc does not, again, I say does not apply to the Gentile Church!!!
ReplyDeleteNovember 20, 2009 8:22 PM
___________________________________Amen. Truth! These guys are brain washed. They explain away verses they don't like, and then accuse us of doing that with verses we question them on. This is not a new tactic. Many want to put that legalistic yoke back on us. We are free indeed. Leave those churches, like Jon G's, who rationalize that you are still under the OT law (except for 1.5% of it.) Apparently, everything said and done there, in the history and context of those verses, still applies to us. I think I will go rub mud in my eyes so I can be healed of blindness. I mean the NT does say to do that. Or maybe I need to fly over to Israel and dip myself 7 times in the Jordan And preachers need to start making tents, because that is clearly what Paul modeled. No of course not, but the other commands we want you to keep doing, we will say those are still valid. And the gullible will say amen and do it. The rest will move on and leave us alone to get rich and get access to wives and children in our "pastor's private study."
Jon G - by the way, you have more than one responding to you.
ReplyDeleteSigned,
Not Publius. :)
"once again, I encourage you to come out of hiding and at least give us a first name. I did."
ReplyDeleteWhat difference does it make who I am? Will that change the process of debate for you here? Or, would it be easier to attack the messenger? Just call me Publius.
"Let me help you understand some my points with scripture - there are certainly some that you do not understand."
If you are teaching tithing in the New Covenant, it is only proof you do not understand the Word.
"1) There is not a context problem with Jesus's words to the Pharisees. People who cry "context!" really are crying "I don't like that verse!""
That is ad hominem. Not liking the verses Jesus speaks to the Pharisees has nothing to do with the fact that he was pointing out their sin to them not teaching us to tithe as was required in the Old Covenant Law. Jesus did not teach his followers to ignore the Law during His ministry. But I cannot use the shaming of the Pharisees as contextual proof we should tithe as in the Old Covenant.
" Of course many of the words that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees are relevant and applicable to NT believers...I already gave you examples of that."
You are teaching like a Pharisee by teaching tithing in the New Covenant.
"2) You are really uninformed on Paul's instruction for giving. Let me quote it for you since it is an unfamiliar passage to you. I Corinthians 16:2, "On the first day of every week (Sun) each one of you is to put aside in keeping with his income (an amount or percentage) and save, as he may prosper (so that God might bless) so that no collection will be needed for me." Does that help Mr. Anon?"
Here is the passage and this is instructive for all readers to see why context is so very important:
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. 3 And when I come, whomever you approve by your letters I will send to bear your gift to Jerusalem. 4 But if it is fitting that I go also, they will go with me.
Publius
Cont...
First of all, Corinthians is a response to many questions and Paul is explaining here a request for a special offering for the Saints in Jerusalem who are being persecuted. He mentions the church in Galatia giving, too.
ReplyDeleteThe translators chose the word 'order' as in command but the Greek is diatasso which means to arrange thoroughly, i.e. (specially) institute, prescribe. It can mean command as in commanding the process.
But Paul did persuade the Body's of Christ to help other believers. This particular offering/collection is mentioned several times in the NT.
So, what is the first day of the week? You are proscribing Holiness to a day. He was prescribing this day because since it was Sabbath most would not be working and could take up the collection.
He is also saying this so that there would be no "collections' when he comes to them. It would be done.
Read this in an interlinear to help you understand the context. This is not a command to tithe. This is a response to questions and how to arrange the contributions.
") You finally support my point...10% in the OT (and yes farmers and animal herders paid a different amount) is but a wise starting point in the NT. The Lord has led me to give 25% of my gross to the Lord through His church every week. Since you don't know my last name, I can express that to you."
You have just violated Matthew 6
") You incorrectly state though that the tithe is tossed in the NT. In law we call it, "A priori" (ahead of experience), couldn’t we assume a law is in force until specifically abolished? Why do you think Mr Anon that tithing is no longer God's directive for us as His followers?"
First of all, the Cross tore the temple veil in two and the Law was fulfilled. A few other reasons:
1. The Christians had no priest to present the tithe to.
2. They had no temple storehouse to keep it in.
3. The 'temple' is now our hearts thanks to the Cross.
We are to give cheerfully. And we are to give to help one another and to help those who are spreading the Gospel.
Giving in the NC has nothing to do with fancy buildings and large staffs. It has nothing to do with giving to maintain a church building.
Publius
"It is 100% the Lords and we are simply stewards of what He provides. Hence the problem. You are a pride problem."
ReplyDeleteSince we are to be good stewards, the last person we should give it to is Mac.
"The Lord has led me to give 25% of my gross to the Lord through His church every week. Since you don't know my last name, I can express that to you.""
ReplyDeleteYou are not anonymous to the Lord. He knows you are bragging here.
I have visions of you sitting at a desk calculating your 25% down to the penny. And feeling very righteous about it.
So every week you are led to give 25% on the gross. That never changes? What are you giving it to? To maintain a building? Pay staffers to lead you in worship? Buy new carpet for the Sanctuary? A better sound system? And, of course, a bit left over for missions and maybe some benevolence. Most of us know how it works.
But it only proves that the Law is a poor substitute for the Holy Spirit who cannot lead you in giving when you are calculating your 25% on the gross week after week.
That might be low for what the Holy Spirit has in mind. Who knows? He might want you to sell your estate like Barnabus.
As more and more people understand that there is no tithing in the NT, only cheerful generous giving to other believers in need and spreading the gospel, more and more church leaders are becoming scared to death. You can hear it in their comments and rebukes.
ReplyDeleteTheir gravy train might be cut off.
We might just decide to help a single mom believer instead of giving it to a building and those who want to live off the offerings of others.
They do not like that because they want to control your giving.
To Publius, and not Publius,
ReplyDeleteI simply encourage you to write down your first name so that it is not confusing - I am not looking to unmask you or make you step out into the light - only to make it easier to respond and to help in the psychological ease of lessening your vitriol. But your choice.
My point is to remind you that the fulness of the Word is important and significant and still the Word of the Lord (Col 1:25)
My point is that so many NT people have cheapened grace so much (like Bonhoeffer said) to say that there is no cost in discipleship or followship. I see your ilk constantly - that they are now free to do what they want. And freedom has nothing to do with that.
The law and grace principles is the reason for the cross, the necessity of the cross, and now our life through the cross.
Jesus came as a fulfillment to the law - the "overturned" law is accurate, but again only 1.5% of the Old Testmaent was overturned by the light of the new, better way.
So many today, and seemingly on this blog today, want to say "we no longer have to give!" which is now seen in the emerging churches "we no longer have to go and serve in churches, that is so old law" which is close in the next generation to "homosexuality is fine" - it is only an abomination in the OT.
Many of you are on a slippery slope to say that tithing is not relevant any more. I believe that Prov 3:9-10, Prov 22:9, II Chron 31:5, Mal 3:8-10, which speaks of offerings as well, are all still valid truths in the New Testament Age of Grace! NONE OF WHICH ARE OVERTURNED BY JESUS, PAUL, JOHN, OR PETER.
Before the law was written, Abraham and Jacob tithed (Gen 14 and Gen 28).
I only offer th 25% leading by the Holy Spirit to let you know that I don't hold the 10% as a dime for every dollar in the NT, but that the Lord puts those amounts on my heart. I did not violate Matt 6 as one person has said - you still don't me. And believe it or not, the Lord already knew I was doing it!
Jon
Who said "If the church would do its job there would be no need for welfare in the country" A lib?
ReplyDeleteNo....Keith Green
Anon 11:29,
ReplyDeleteWho the heck is Barnabus? Are you an 8th Day Assembly member? That might explain a lot of your biblical misinterpretations.
Jon
And Keith Green had a valid point! I agree with him.
ReplyDeleteHere is another point of thought: If church members only gave to those in need and only to sharing of the gospel...then how would you sit in your air conditioned worship centers? How would the preschool minister get paid? How would the parking lot get repaired? How would students get curriculum, sound systems and choir books?
Jon
"My point is to remind you that the fulness of the Word is important and significant and still the Word of the Lord (Col 1:25)
ReplyDeleteMy point is that so many NT people have cheapened grace so much (like Bonhoeffer said) to say that there is no cost in discipleship or followship. I see your ilk constantly - that they are now free to do what they want. And freedom has nothing to do with that."
That is absurd for you to make that suggestion. In reality your insistence upon the law (command to tithe) works to limit giving and turns it into a work of salvation or sanctification.
Just remember that what you are teaching is really tithing to an organization that has a building and staff to upkeep. It has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ and what giving was for in the NT church.
It is Pharisetical what you teach. As a matter of fact, I will go one step further and say that pouring money into buildings and the trappings therein instead of helping our brothers and sisters in Christ at home and around the world who are being persecuted is a sin and we will answer for it.
You can read about us in Revelation.
All one has to do is to look at the percentages many of churches give to missions and know that their teaching on 'tithing' is to benefit themselves with nice buildings, nice salaries and silly events.
So you tithe to what? For what?
You are the one teaching cheap grace through works.
NOT ONE PERSON HAS SAID WE DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE ANY LONGER. THAT IS A LIE YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE TO KEEP ON TEACHING THE LAW. you have to insist we are saying NOT to give. And that is a bald faced lie.
In fact, The Cross raised the bar from tithing.
Here is the bottomline:
IF we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are giving MORE. It is NOT required. It is an outcome of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Jesus raised the BAR from tithing to radical giving to help one another and spread the gospel. Not to build buildings and elevate mere men.
But some of us have pure wisdom from above and KNOW it is totally unwise to hand money over to the hirlings and wolves. It is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
There are much better ways to further the true Gospel and it is spelled out in the NT. We help one another and we send out brothers and sisters to spread the word. There are mission organizations that do not pay their execs huge 6 figures. One I would recommend is Heartcry. Most of the money goes directly to the need. then look around you and help a brother or sister in need in the Name of our Lord and keep on doing it! Pray, the Holy Spirit will guide you to those in need. Give to them anonymously only in the Name of Jesus. HE GETS THE GLORY. NOT MAN!
You only prove your ignorance by saying Genesis 14 is about tithing and it makes me ill.
This is taught in seminary and why our seminaries are HUGE wastelands of ignorance of young minds thinking they are OWED.
I saw an article by Ken Hemphill teaching the same nonsense. (He makes his nice living off 'tithes' so it is easy to see why he teaches such drivel)
"Abram's" 10% given to Melchizedek were the spoils of war.
It is utter insanity what is taught out there. Please step down as an elder. You are not qualified.
Publius
"Who the heck is Barnabus? Are you an 8th Day Assembly member? That might explain a lot of your biblical misinterpretations."
ReplyDeleteAgain, your ignorance is astounding. Elders are to be the 'spiritually mature'? It would help to know scripture.
Here is Barnabas:
36 And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37 having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet. Acts 4
Publius
Publius,
ReplyDeleteAgain, put away your anger - it does not wear on you well as a Believer.
1) I asked about Barnabus because he is an extra-biblical character that the 8th Day Adventist follow. I assume now that you misspelled his name and were actually referring to Barnabas, the traveling partner of Paul who sold his land to give to the church planters.
2) When I give to the church, I give to people, I give to discipleship programs, I give to missions, I give to food pantries, I give to women job corps, I give to children's camp, I give to orphanages - - all of which my church supports with great percentages. But I also give to the air conditioning, the re-painting, the pews, the fan belts for the van.
3) I don't encourage tithing to be saved (that is law!) and I don't encourage tithing to be in favor with God (that is law!), I encourage to begin with a tithe to express obedience to our giving Father (that is a responsiveness to His grace).
4) To not give, to not serve, to not share, to be out of fellowship, to be angry in a public forum of blogging - that is cheap grace...we take the grace and live however we want to - that my friend is spitting on the cross.
5) And sure offerings were used for buildings and land in the NT. Since most new churches were actually old synagogues isn't wasn't necessary to spent huge amounts on church buildings - but it is now...and I would imagine you are the product of sitting in a church that others paid for at some point in your life. Generations of grandparents that tithed on everything that came in to them as a gift from the Lord.
When you preach/teach - there is no tithe to be given, the vast majority of church goers rejoice (in their immaturity) and say "yes! more tools for the garage!"
Jon
Jon, Glad to see you are changing your tune as we interact. That happens often enough with folks who come in guns blazing that when we say there is no 'tithe' in the NC are talking about not giving at all. I hope you realize that Jesus Christ raised the bar. It is not a percentage. It is from the heart where the Holy Spirit dwells. It is much more radical than a commanded 'tithe'.
ReplyDeleteYou guys always whip out every OT passage they can find to try and prove their doctrinal stance. Teaching the Old Covenant of a Theocracy as binding on today. What is repeated in the New Covenant is binding. First and foremost Love God with all your heart and love others. When this happens we want to help others and share with them supplying their needs.
But this was quite confusing:
"Since most new churches were actually old synagogues isn't wasn't necessary to spent huge amounts on church buildings "
Seriously? Did you learn this in seminary?
You are familiar with history of AD 70, right?
Actual church buildings for early believers were not in vogue until Constantine who turned the pagan temples into churches. Which is where we get many of our traditions of an 'orator' on a stage, an altar, pulpit, pews, etc.
The early Christians, after being scattered following Pentecost, met in homes, by the river, etc. They did not spend their money on building buildings.
We should learn a lesson from the huge Cathedrals in Europe which are now tourist traps. Which I predict one day will be the fate of many mega churches.
Sorry about my typo on Barnabas. I thought you would have recognized him because I mentioned that he sold his estate and gave it to the Body of Christ. I thought you would recognize Acts 4
"5) And sure offerings were used for buildings and land in the NT. Since most new churches were actually old synagogues isn't wasn't necessary to spent huge amounts on church buildings - but it is now...and I would imagine you are the product of sitting in a church that others paid for at some point in your life. Generations of grandparents that tithed on everything that came in to them as a gift from the Lord."
Funny you write this today. After the Body meeting, I had lunch with a 90 year old man and we talked about his church experience growing up. He spoke about his dad giving when they had so very little. And the preacher was even poorer so they always made sure to give the preacher part of their harvest for food for the winter. Not a tithe. Just an offering to a brother in Christ in need.
Times have changed. Now many pastors make more than the folks they are asking to "Tithe".
I think we could glorify our Savior if we passed on the new carpet and sound system and helped our brothers and sisters around us and around the world who are in need. What a witness for the Lord, that would be instead of being so proud of our buildings. God does not dwell there so it is hard to understand why we idolize them so much.
I simply have too much experience as a past church leader in many churches not to know the truth. The church is HORRIBLE when it comes to benevolence.
Publius
BTW Jon, I get angry when the Word is twisted.
ReplyDeleteYou came on here telling us that Jesus rebuking the Pharisees about HOW they tithe and what they teach was proof that Jesus was teaching tithing to the early Christians AFTER the Cross. That is what you were teaching even if you did not understand it.
That makes my blood boil. You misrepresent my Savior so you can beat the sheep over giving to buildings and salaries.
It is sinful and I hope you repent of making giving and offerings a work.
As an elder, ignorance of the Word is no excuse.
Anon 2:02 and 1:59,
ReplyDeleteAnger has never accomplished the righteousness life God calls us to...(James 1:20). You are an angry man brother.
I also haven't changed my tune at all - perhaps (like your Barnabus type) I haven't conveyed my thoughts from my heart to the keyboard very well.
And yes, check your history. Many synagogues were used by Christians in the new church age. I am not talking about the Temple destroyed in 70-72AD, I am talking about the synagogues of Antioch, Colossi, etc... Perhaps the following would help you with this:
Synagogue to Church: Public services and offices in the earliest Christian communities (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1992).
My point is that the first Christians did not have to give to the church building because they already had them, or met in homes as you wrote...Acts 2 speaks to that of course as the earliest church.
The tithe is never reversed in the NT, please show me when you find that. An offering, a Spirit-leading giving, is added...yes! But to the destruction of the tithe? I personally believe not. I tithe my 10% as a first fruit, and then I gladly offer my addtional 15% as the Spirit has laid on my heart. Gideons, Campus Crusade, and Samaritans Purse is on top of that.
As my teenage son says, "Chill!"
Jon
Jon, You came here guns blazing rebuking and teaching false doctrine. And false teaching makes me angry as it should.
ReplyDeleteYou want me to show you are NT verse that says not to tithe as in the OT teaching on tithe?
Ok, then show me the NT verse that tells us that there is no cooking meat in goats milk. The NT did not repeal that one, either.
So where am I to take my cumin and dill? Where do I put the showbread? So, who are your Levite priests who take in the tithe. I would like to meet them.
And you are cheating. It is more like 37% since it is about 'tithes' and not giving.
Jon, I would really appreciate it, since you are so concerned with anonymous comments, if you would tell us your name and church so we can avoid it.
Publius
Jon: You won't find the word Tithe and Tithing in all of Paul's Epistles. Paul understood first hand that is was under the OT.
ReplyDeleteI give up on trying to explain some things to some people, because they are either part of the "rip off" or they want to be known as "super spiritual". Usually they are young and dumb or they have an "agenda". Either way it is useless and frustrating trying to get "through" to these pseudo intellectual/false doctrine pushers. I don't waste my time anymore. I always say "buyer beware", when you enter a church of Laodicea today. You can get your mind messed with and your pocket picked-(doctrinally speaking not literally)) at the same time.
ReplyDeleteHere is another point of thought: If church members only gave to those in need and only to sharing of the gospel...then how would you sit in your air conditioned worship centers? How would the preschool minister get paid? How would the parking lot get repaired? How would students get curriculum, sound systems and choir books?
ReplyDelete__________________________________
I had all of the above things you listed in every church I have ever been in. Some had budgets under $250,000. And we still had ALL of the above. So why does a church with a $500.000 budget, and another with $1,300,000 budget, and another with a $18 million dollar budget, ALL tell their congregation that if they just had more money from their respective congregations, they could do some real ministry?
I like all those things you mention, and do no object to some of the offerings going to them, but the more we give "to God" it seems all "God" gets in return is more family members on staff, higher salaries, fancy titles to the assistants to the pastor, bigger buildings, better TV screens, and more whining about needing more money.
Mac Brunson opened my eyes to what is going on. Before him, I never questioned church budgets or expenditures. His arrogance and brazenness and hypocrisy with his own book, nepotism, land gifts, preaching gigs, and Danube River cruises, and Holy Land tour guide gigs, caused me to have some questions for the first time in my life. His response to my questions, or arrogant lack of response, and the aggressive nature in which my concerns were addressed, caused me to pray for and support the WD, who was the only one willing to pursue answers to his concern.
John MacArthur has an excellent series on giving on his website titled, "God's Plan for Giving". It clearly lays out the OT teachings on tithing, what it was for and how it was used to support the Levites, which was the government for the children of Israel. I wish all the SBC pastors could read this teaching and have their eyes opened. Better yet, would all Christians read and understand what the Bible teaches about giving. Here is the link:http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/1302
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, not many will read the book, or their own bible. They will simply be entertained by Mac's history lessons and his yelling at them "Its in 'da book." "Take it up with 'da book."
ReplyDeleteHe wouldn't dare suggest that if he thought some members actually would do so. But he and others are being exposed and will have to explain themselves when they are caught in their lies and false teaching about tithing.
The mills of the gods do indeed grind slow, but they grind exceedingly fine. And only God can help them then. Maybe Mac was talking about himself when he said that.
Can anyone tell me where the storehouse and silos are that hold all the seeds and grains?
ReplyDeleteQuestion: "Can anyone tell me where the storehouse and silos are that hold all the seeds and grains?"
ReplyDeleteAnswer: Behind the gates in the elite "gated" communities.
A clear definition of "The Kingdom of GOD" may help some understand the tithe issue. Helping the pastor get a new car or purchase a plane or rehab the church building because the carpets are frayed are not kingdom issues. I am a pastor and I don't teach the tithe as a mandate for NT believers. Our church does fine and we are a small church. We could do better financially but not by pushing tithes, curses and OT law keeping. Generosity and grace giving is a better way. HOw does the pastor ask a person receiving public assistance. or diability to pay 10% plus offerings when the gov't is supplementing their income or providing it. You are taxing the people and the government. Those who have more have a greater responsibility to do more "not by compulsion or constraint" for the LORD loves a cheerful giver.
ReplyDeleteNot all people tithed under the old covenant.
Far too many churches are focusing on building an earthly monument to their church name or the pastor's ego than they are building GOD's kingdom.
Tithing was under and is under the law with a curse for Christians seeking salvation under the law, Galatians 3:3-13, Malachi 3:1-18. When pastors and priests lie by quoting Malachi 3:1-18,under the law IN OLD COVENANT, how many Christians line up to be served with food when tithes and offering under the law are given? Is the storehouse pastors' and priests' house or the Church being the body of Christ? Saved Christians by grace IN NEW COVENANT who are lead and taught by the Holy Spirit are not under law or in curse in the law. Those who simply imply Christians are under curse for not tithing put into question about unfinished work of redemption (SALVATION) by Christ Jesus on cross of Calvary which is bought and maintained continuously in tithes paid to them. Yet Christ is not ashamed to call us brethren whom He has sanctified. Hebrew 2:9-13.We have been redeemed from the curse of the law, Christ being made a curse for us : for it is written, cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree. Galatians 3:8-13. Christians saved by grace are ministers of the new testament born of love with exceeding glory which surpassed the glory that was in law with Moses. We have been redeemed from the curse of the law to adoptions of sons in Royal Priesthood. Pastors ,Priest and Bishops who are servants of God cannot subject sons of God in Royal Priesthood to tithe taxes which absolutely illegal for we are not under the curse of the law, Galatians 5:1, Galatians4:4-5,2 Corinthians 3:1-18. Sins sacrifices ,offerings under the law, curses, and generation curses under law in the old covenant remained up to death of Jesus Christ on Calvary when He fulfilled the requirements of the law. Salvation under the law one attains it at last breath on earth having done all that pertains to the law which is hard for one to accomplish. Even the tithe which was given by Abraham was under the law of sin and death from the fallen state of Adam and Eve at the garden of Aden. Those who lie would like to deceive Christians that tithe was before the law but before which law. When Christ our High Priest was born He was given gifts and not tithes Mathew 2:11-12. Salvation under spiritual law of love by grace is freely given and attained with free miracles from God our Father, Ephesians 2:4 -9, Ephesians 2:13 -20. Under Leviticus priesthood which belonged to the tribe of Levi, tithes were given to Levites priests for use by the whole tribe of Levi and tithe of tithe to the high Priest for they shared no land apart from the walled towns they were allocated to stay in for their continuous sacrifice to God, Numbers 18:20 -29. Widows, strangers ,fatherless and orphans benefited from tithes and offerings given to Levites, Deuteronomy 14:22-29. In Christianity widows were asked to be catered by close brethren to ease burden to the Church. There were also tithes of different kinds in Israel. There was also a tithe where a family had to eat all before the Lord, Deutreronomy12:6-7. In Christ Jesus we are saved by grace to adoptions of sons in Royal Priesthood of Christ (for Christians)and not by works of law ,Galatians 3:8-13,Acts13: 38-39, Galatians 4: 4-5, Galatians2:16-21, Galatians 5:18. Sons have direct access to the Father and free common inheritance not bought or worked for from the Father. For servants ( Pastors and Priests) are servants of God worthy all respects and due help. Much preaching is done in grace and love to Christians at early stages who are later sleeking entangled and enslaved in fear under bondage of the law emphatically taught by many in seeking dwindling fortune of falsehood in tithes.
ReplyDelete