One thing we have to acknowledge about Steve Gaines and his views on tithing and recent accusations against non-tithers dealing in stolen goods: Gaines is consistent. Last Sunday (1/31/10) was not the first time he has said such outragous statements about his brothers and sisters in Christ who may be obedient to God in giving sacrificially, but not meeting Gaines' 10% undesignated threshold.In July 2003, Gaines made the following statement at Union University:
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"Number one...you have to sign this covenant to sing a solo in our church...and I don't want to hear 'Betty the Bank Robber' warble about Jesus, Amen? I don't want some thief up there singing a solo."
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So in Gaines' view of stewardship, a person cannot stand up in his church and sing praises to Jesus Christ unless they are forking over 10% undesignated to the budget of his church.
The warped doctrine itself is bad enough, but what is particularly troubling is how much disdain he must have for lay people to refer to a woman soloist as "Betty the Bank Robber". To Gaines, its apparent that your worth in his church and in the kingdom of God starts and stops with whether you give 10% to his church undesignated. If you do, you're invited to leadership. If you don't, then you can't even sing a solo in his church.
Another troubling aspect of Gaines' comments about "Betty the Bank Robber" is the audience to whom he made these remarks. He made them to seminary students. Future preachers. He is dishing out this garbage to these future preachers, so that they may implement his views. He is pushing it out to the younger generation. It must be very difficult to love the people you shepherd when you've been taught that 97.5% of them are thieves and bankrobbers and are stealing from God.
A few other choice comments from Gaines Union University sermon:
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"We define tithing in this way: storehouse tithing, 10% undesignated to the budget of the church. And we check it. In fact if they don't tithe, they don't even get asked to be a leader in our church. Now I don't check it, but the finance committee does, and you know, they give him some leeway. But you show me a guy who is living in a nice house, and driving two nice cars and is giving a thousand bucks a year to the church, he's not tithing and I don't want him as a leader. Are you OK? You say 'I don't think that's right'. You know what, he's a thief, and I don't want a thief as a deacon. He's stealing from God."
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I came across this video of Creflo Dollar, in which he describes his desire to take non-tithers, line them up in front of the church, give uzi's to all the ushers, and have them shot and buried out in back of the church so that God would show up at their service.
As I've said before, the one common doctrine shared by ALL these different sects of Christianity: SBC mega church pastors, the health and wealth prosperity prechers, the emerging church leaders....all who slam each other for their other varying doctrines...but they all share one thing in common:
They want 10% of your money in their church coffers, and they will use the Bible to convince people that this is what God wants too; in fact they declare they KNOW that is what God demands for you to have favor with God.
Shameful.
The only ONE qualified to make a covenant with me is JESUS. HE shed HIS blood for my sins. I owe HIM all. I don't "owe" anything to man. Especially one NOT qualified to judge me. Man makes up self serving laws unto himself, using Gods word MISSAPPLIED. I refuse to hand over my position before Christ to a mere man not qualified to demand ANYTHING from me, in JESUS name. The vail in the temple was rent. I don't have to go through any man to JESUS. There is no "holy order" that I must answer to. I answer directly to Jesus, not some preacher trying to tell me I owe him anything, and that I must sign ANY covenant. Jesus didn't make me sign anything when I got Saved. HE took me, a sinner just like I was, and saved my soul. All preachers have to go to the CROSS just like the rest of us to be SAVED. You preachers need to "get over" yourselves. You are to be servants not "lord and masters" of all you survey.
ReplyDeleteNew day(02/05/10),Old challenge!
ReplyDeleteCan anyone out there who supports tithing(Les,Joe,anyone),please,please,please explain to us antinomians why there is only a 10% obligation on the Church,as you believe it to be,and not a 23% obligation as the Old Testament demanded!!!
PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE answer this one question for us heretics who believe that we are dead to the Law,but alive to Christ!!!
Also give Scripture references,not conjectures,opinions or surmisings!!!
Dr.Dog is it not getting "Worse and Worse" as the covers are being pulled off of these charlatans and deceivers,revealing for all who are willing to see that these shake down artists,whether they are posperity,the emergent church,cults,ism's and schisms alike,they all demand your money or else the judgment of God is coming down on us!!!
Come Lord Jesu,COME!!!
Let me be the first kool-aid drinker to accuse the WD of the following:
ReplyDeleteYou are just jealous!
Now, let me be the first kool-aid drinker to apply to Creflo Dollar what Mac Brunson's supporters have parroted here over and over again:
"Preachers do not take a vow of poverty."
"Don't worry about how the money is spent. Your job is just to give it."
"Let God deal with the pastor if he is not being a good steward of the money."
"God wants us to prosper. What is wrong with the preacher having a nice home and nice cars. (and planes even.)"
"Be careful "attacking" God's man." (Creflo Dollar is God's man!)
"Mind your own business. You don't even go to Dollar's church."
And if you do go there: "If you don't like how the money is being spent, go somewhere else."
"Be careful about saying anything about God's man, because I knew a guy who had a heart attack and died just after he questioned Pastor Dollar about his finances."
And finally: "It's in da book, brutha." "Take it up with da book!" NOT.
Did I mention you are just jealous?
What's next, collection agencies demanding the tithe plus interest. Are they going to report it on your credit bureau file? Are you going to have to wear a sign when you come into the church with "scarlet letters" of DB deadbeat, or NT, not a tither. Why would anyone even get dressed early on Sunday morning or any other time to go hear this stuff?
ReplyDeleteSo to sing a song at Bellevue you don't have to sign a contract about your lifestyle, time devoted to service, or belief system. And apparently it doesn't even matter if you are a sexual predator.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it only about money?
There are times in most everyone's life where all they have to give is their time or their talent. Doesn't mean they can be blessed by or used by God, or be a blessing to others.
ReplyDeleteIt's not even sad to read about this kind of thing anymore in the SBC. It's just angering.
Why more members don't "vote with their feet" and leave these churches is beyond me.
You may want to check this story out that appeared on WFAA, chanel 8 last night in Dallas.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/Prominent-Pastor-Linked-to-Luxury-83600192.html
Do the members of Bellevue tell this to the lost they are witnessing to? Do they tell this to their unchurched friends and neighbors? I mean a church that has integrity would make sure they clearly notify any prospective members of these requirements wouldn't they? And if Gaines believes what he is saying about people being thieves if they are not tithing, then he needs to show due diligence in monitoring all leaders and singers' tax returns and all sources of income. Otherwise, he might be judging a brother. And I couldn't help but notice Steve looks at the home a man lives in and the kinds of cars he drives. Hmmm. Seems a lot of Mac's supporters (family and staff?) have come on this blog and said we were obsessed about Mac's house and cars. Not true, but maybe the preachers are obsessed with our houses and cars?
ReplyDeleteSo much hypocrisy. So much that is not even logical. Where to begin? Good post, WD. And I agree, at least Gaines has been consistent with his sheep beating. He has been doing it for years.
Too bad he can't tell us why he believes Jesus tithed. Does he also believe Jesus kept the sabbath? If so, he should tell us why he believes some garbage.
These are the guys that are leading our next generation of pastors. They want the luxuries Mac and Steve have and they are watching them closely to see how to get it. Sheep beating, guilt trips, twisting scripture, etc. And the SBC wonders why they have lost their saltiness and are lukewarm. We do know what Jesus said about lukewarm folks and those that lose their saltiness. They are worthless to be used. Barf indeed. Way to tell them Jesus! They just don't see it applying to themselves. But we do. And more and more of us do. And they can't continue to fund their empires without all of us. Sooner or later they will have to give it up and take a cushy job with NAMB, or the IMB, or heaven forbid...on the staff of Liberty!
To all the laymen that read this blog, please prayerfully consider this: This discussion of tithing is not just about a pastor's convictions on tithing, but rather it is about the true gospel these guys are preaching. It is legalism and works and salvation and devotion to Christ is judged and directly related to money. It is about who are the false teachers, the lovers of money, the wolves in sheep's clothing. How can you tell if your pastor is in the same mold as Brunson, Gaines, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn and so many others? Simple. Does he preach to you, or even imply, that tithing is required or is some kind of litmus test for you to be serving in the church? If so, he is a false teacher, either out of ignorance (run) or out of greed (run).
ReplyDeleteDo most of the sermons tie back in to your giving, or to supporting their "vision" for a new building? Or does it focus on reaching the lost, helping the poor and serving others that are outside the walls of that little cozy church setting? What are they doing in the city and in the world? And if you gave them millions of dollar more, what would change? A nicer seat for you? A better HD screen? A bigger building with more maintenance needs? A larger congregation of stolen sheep who want those things for themselves and their kids? Wake up!
Interesting stuff. Let's hear it for Ed Young and Fellowship Church in Dallas! Check it out! He makes Mac look needy.
ReplyDelete" Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteYou may want to check this story out that appeared on WFAA, chanel 8 last night in Dallas.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/Prominent-Pastor-Linked-to-Luxury-83600192.html
February 5, 2010 10:52 AM
To all those wanting to know how these preachers operate and their singular motives,please check out the above link on Ed Young!
Listen and pay close attention to what's indicated and E.Y's. sleight of hands answers!
The same shananigans are happening with Mac,Gaines and most of these mega,middies and mini Pastor's who force tithing on the people!!!
Your home work for today is to read Jeremiah 23,2Peter 2,and Jude!!!
This will be followed by an examine!
A clue that will help pass the test is "GREED"!!!
Remember Joseph's brothers sold him for 20 pieces of silver (two for each of them). Judas sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver. Its always about the MONEY.
ReplyDeleteI have been a Christian for over 24 years and after reading the blogs of Les Puryear and Tim Guthrie, and after listening to Steve Gaines and Brunson supporters, I am just now realizing that I am still obligated to keep the OT laws. The reason being that we should do even more under grace than we were required to do under the law. Well, I didn't know that, but I know it now. So I am just realizing that I was not getting the "whole gospel" until now. I believed John 14:6, John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9 and trusted Christ alone for my salvation. It seems I was WRONG! I will listen more closely to Gaines and Puryear and Dollar and Brunson to see truly "what must I do to be saved." I no longer can trust in Christ alone it seems. I am so confused now. How can I trust Jesus for my salvation if I can't trust Gaines/Brunson/Dollar with 10% of my income they ask.
ReplyDeleteOh well, I can start by giving 10% of my gross income undesignated, since that is "just the beginning." I think I might check in with the Catholic priest too. I believe I have been wrong about him all these years since I thought he was adding works and sacraments to faith. Oh well, live and learn. Now, who to make the check to? If I make the check out to God, let's see who the bank will let cash it?
"If you can't trust the messengers (Gaines/Brunson/Dollar), how can you trust the message? (tithing, salvation through faith)
ReplyDeleteJohnny Cochran
Amen, Johnny Cochran. I certainly don't trust the messengers and now I am beginning to doubt The Message.
What bothers me is how so many other people saw these preachers as charlatans and I scoffed at them and thought "not my preacher." And how clearly I saw the nonsense of Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar and thought the people that gave millions to them were morons. Now, thanks to Mac Brunson and Steve Gaines, my eyes have been opened and I can now clearly see that even the SBC, even myself, have been just as blind and moronic in giving to these clowns. Men of God? I don't think so. Thanks Mac, for being so brazen that we no longer could ignore the obvious. Just my opinions based on what I have read and seen. :) Don't Tase Me, Bro for voicing my opinion. And certainly don't trespass my wife from "God's house" for me doing so.
ReplyDeleteDid you watch the news story on Ed Young?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/Prominent-Pastor-Linked-to-Luxury-83600192.html
How did you like the part where the former church member would only appear on camera in a disguise with his voice scrambled?
What does that tell you about the level of trust in that church?
Well,
ReplyDeleteI don't really think God struck anyone down for talking about Creflo Dollar. Maybe Creflo wanted to line a few people up with his hood ornament on his Rolls and take them out. But that is human nature when people talk bad about us. Also us pastors hide behind God will get you if you don't do as I say. I have heard some good messages from Dollar but I totally disagree with what he teaches. His ministry revolves around what moths and rust will destroy.
Now on Ed Jr., I think he is a good guy but like all ceo pastors you get to a point with no true oversight. Which leads back to our human nature issue of that we are sinners who make mistakes and if not corrected they get out of hand.
250,000 dollar housing allowance which is non-taxible income. What is he doing that requires a 20,833 dollars a month in housing exspences. If he does not use that then it becomes taxible income at the end of the year. But if he does then he does not pay $70,000 in taxes on it. I believe housing allowance is what got Robert Tilton(was that is name?) Ed just pop up on the IRS Radar which is a good thing because if he is honor God then he will be vindicated.
Pastor Chris
The following is a possible scenario. Made up to show "the other side" of a situation: But, could be close to the truth for some.
ReplyDeleteShe/he (whomever ?) has the best voice in the church and probably in America, however, we can't allow her/him to sing in OUR choir since she/he does not tithe. Maybe she or he (whomever) are a single parent supporting children or sick elderly parents. Maybe he or she has lost a job, or just has no flexible income. Sacrificed to afford the gas in the car just to GET to church for services. Maybe the only thing he/she has left to give to God is the talent of worshipping HIM in song, but if he/she doesn't tithe he/she won't be allowed to use the talent GOD gave, because the preacher said so. What's that thundering sound I hear? Is that people leaving the church? Don't dare to insult Gods children until you have been where someone else has been.
Suppose a teacher has a grasp of the scriptures like no one else. Understands the Word, doesn't manipulate it for any purpose. Visits when others don't, Witnesses to the lost from ALL walks of life however, we cannot let him/her be a TEACHER since he/she is not a tither.
I say let the singer and teacher go somewhere else where they can use their talents for the cause of Jesus Christ. The church that they attend is not worthy to have them as members if their USE is strictly a FINANCIAL ONE!!!!!!!!!
If you want to tithe, then tithe. If you don't want to tithe then don't. Settle it between you and Jesus.
ReplyDeleteThe practical matter is that the church needs leadership and pastor's on staff and a roof over head. Some of you that say that the tither is a lemming, please explain how this ought to work?
The pastor should never say anything about the tithe? Maybe there is some other innovative and Biblical reference that can get the job done.
I really think that most of you that write in opposition are simply seeking justification...perhaps you feel guilty.
Pastors being taught ways for shearing the sheep, by Crown Ministries
ReplyDeleteRecordings by Randy Alcorn, at a Pastor's Conference at Crown Ministries
Feb 4 2010 part 1
TEXT
Audio
Feb 5 2010 part 2
TEXT
Audio
God Provides Video
Is Crown Ministries in your church?
ENTERTIANED:"If you want to tithe, then tithe. If you don't want to tithe then don't. Settle it between you and Jesus."
ReplyDelete(1)But this I say:He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly,and he sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
So let "EACH ONE" give as he purpose in "HIS HEART",not grudgingly or of necessity;for God loves a cheerful giver[2Cor.9:6-7]!!!
ENTERTAINED:"The practical matter is that the church needs leadership and pastor's on staff and a roof over head. Some of you that say that the tither is a lemming, please explain how this ought to work?"
(2)And when I was present with you and in need,I was a burden "TO NO ONE",for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied.And in "EVERYTHING" I kept myself from being burdensome to you,and SO I WILL KEEP MYSELF.[2Cor.11:9]!!!
But we were gentle among you,just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children.So,affectionately longing for you,we were well pleased to impart to you not only the Gospel of God,but also our own lives,because you had become dear to us.For remember,brethren our labor and toil;FOR LABORING NIGHT AND DAY,THAT WE MIGHT NOT BE A BURDEN TO ANY OF YOU,we preached to you the Gospel of God[1Thes.2:7-9]!!!
ENTERTAINED:"The pastor should never say anything about the tithe? Maybe there is some other innovative and Biblical reference that can get the job done."
(3)And I brethren,when I came to you,did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the Testimony of God.For I DETERMINED NOT TO KNOW ANYTHING AMONG YOU EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.[1Cor.2:1-2]!!!
ENTERTAINED:"I really think that most of you that write in opposition are simply seeking justification...perhaps you feel guilty."
(4)If you abide in My Word,you are My disciples indeed.And you SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH and the TRUTH SHALL "MAKE YOU FREE".[John 8:31-32]!!!
"The practical matter is that the church needs leadership and pastor's on staff and a roof over head. Some of you that say that the tither is a lemming, please explain how this ought to work?
ReplyDelete"
Would you kindly point out to me the pastor and elders of the Corinthian church? The church at Philippi? The Galatian churches?
Paul says that those who teach and preach are worthy of double honor. Do you know how much single honor is? Is it money?
Paul made tents so as not to be a burden.
The tradition of paying a guy to speak to the assembly started in about 300 AD when Constantine turned the pagan temples into church buildings. Many traditions we hold come from that. It is where we get the tradition of paying an 'orator' and having a pulpit and altar. All of these are pagan temple traditions.
The "leader" of the Body of Christ is Jesus Christ, the High Priest. The hand cannot say to the eye, I have no need of you. That is the head/body metaphor that Paul intends
Why is it we want to pay others to be professional Christians for us? Do we lack the resources and Holy Spirit? No, we do not. If truly saved, we are all in the Holy Priesthood. We are ALL ministers and are given gifts to edify the Body of Christ. Our problem is that we think we can pay others to do that for us.
The world has leaders. The Body has servants.
Matt
Well said, Brother Rod. Let us pray that eyes are opened.
ReplyDeleteMatt
I don't usually weigh in on this blog, though it is helpful in exposing how the world has perpetrated the church.
ReplyDeleteA few on here have said that maybe Betty is caring for a parent, or a single mom, or is in some way financially strapped beyond her control.
My question is this: what if she is not broke? What if she has a great job and money in the bank? Or gasp, what if she is wealthy?
Preach Jesus to her. Let the gospel thunder down. If she wants to sing to Jesus, let her. She may drink of Him and give everything away. The Word of God is powerful and able to tear down strongholds-including being stingy and afraid and leaning on possessions instead of the Lord.
These men, by their constant harping and legalism, show this: they do not trust the Gospel.
It is not powerful enough in their mind to accomplish what God promises, that it changes lives and changes hearts.
Quit beating people down and preach the Word. Let the sword cut.
Storehouse...... ha!Then it should never never leave the church building....my grandaddy was right....he was a banker before the depression hit...he said becareful of such men.
ReplyDeleteTwo things about the Ed Young article that stand out for me
ReplyDelete"Young declined to discuss his salary and compensation with News 8, but his spokesman said the pastor's pay "is governed without his participation by an Independent Compensation Committee, relying on outside consultation with knowledgeable and experienced church leaders."
This is right out of the mega playbook. The pastor has nothing to do with his compensation. A small group of men (elders) force him to take the salary and benefits. He has no choice in the matter. (wink wink)
And...Larry Ross is his spokesman? Is this same Larry Ross who was Rick Warren's spokesmen a few years back?
Matt
Steve Gaines (the pastor who protected a pedophile minister) is preaching at the Pastors Conference. Wonder if he will give the 'driving stolen cars' sermons to the other pastors?
ReplyDeleteCreflo Dollar should change his name to Creflo Dollars.
ReplyDeleteGood site for disinformation on tithing:
ReplyDeletehttp://tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/chapter7.html#d-7
Posted over on the New BBC Open Forum:
ReplyDelete"Steve Gaines "Claims" he tithes!!!
but does he just give?
Will he come clean and reveal his total Compensation and disclose exactly how he tithes (ie: tithing record)?
Come on Steve show us all how it really works.....
I mean, lead by example, not just words that anyone can say...
Do you tithe on those free lunches, free trips, kids discounted education, family cars ?
They are an increase's aren't they?
Love to see how your math is.."
.
Charitable donations down in churches. Read this report from Barna:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/18-congregations/341-the-economys-impact-part-3-of-3-donors-reduce-giving-brace-for-the-long-haul
I thought this line was interesting:
"The study showed that income level was not correlated with tithing: just 9% of upscale adults gave at least one-tenth of their income, while 11% of the downscale set gave an equivalent proportion."
I was curious how the comment section ended on Les Puryear's site on the tithing issue.
ReplyDeleteTake a look at the last comment which addressed Les' original contention that the tithe was never abolished in the NT and Les' (non) response.
Sounds like check-mate to me.
Les
I would like to address your second sentence: "Nowhere in the NT is the command to tithe removed." Here is my reply and I await your comments.
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
Thanks for your continuing comments on this topic. I think I've said about all I know to say on this one. I have nothing new to add to what I've already said.