Saturday night at Fellowship Church, Ed Young gave some answers to the investigative piece last week. After Ed spoke for about 10 minutes, he called up two of his board members: John Cross - pastor of S. Biscayne Church and president of the Florida Baptist Convention and Austin Pastor Mac Richard (prounounced "Ri-SHARD") - they each spoke about 10 minutes.
I do commend Young for addressing his congregation. His answers were mostly vague non-answers - but he gave more than enough to satisfy his faithful followers, but not nearly enough to silence his critics in my estimation.
Cross and Richard gave no concrete answers either, except to say what great a guy Young is, and how accountable to God they are and Ed Young is, and how much integrity all of them have. They told the church that they can be trusted to watch out for the best interests of the church.
But still, no firm answers to the most pressing questions.
The questions still remain:
- what is Ed Young's total compensation? Ed said to his congregation that his "salary" from the church is not a million dollars. He even pulled a Mac Brunson and said "I believe I'm well under what others make". Too bad he can't just say what his total compensation is, and refute the TV report that his total compensation is in excess of a million bucks. Remember: his salary might be below a million - but salary means zippo in pastor-land- its total compensation that matters.
- what is Ed's housing allowance? Ed did not address the report which said it was a "parsonage allowance" of $225,000.
- what is Fellowship Church paying for use of the private plane, and why is it absolutely necessary? Young and Cross sort of addressed the plane issue by saying "Fellowship Church does not own an airplane". But the N188FJ Falcon 50 private jet has been leased by Medill Co in Connecticut - and Ed's name, and "Fellowship Church" and "Fellowship Connection" appear on the lease documents. Why is a private jet necessary for Young to accomplish God's will? According to Cross, the plane is helping to take care of Ed, his marriage, and his family. Great, but why is a plane necessary? Many men log hundreds of thousands of miles of air travel a year, but they make due without a private leased jet. Is this a wise use of Kindgdom money?
This is probably the end of the story. Ed had a packed house Saturday night, got a rousing standing ovation with hoots and hollers and whistles...and he and two of his buddies addressed the news report in thier own way. They declared the news report as not only a personal attack on "Ed and Lisa", but an attack on the board and the entire church - all of which is a sure sign, they say, that God is about to do something wonderful at Fellowship Church.
I pray for the day when the IRS requires full financial disclosure of the pastor and family compensation, perks, gifts, and travel expenses, as a condition for continued tax-exempt status for these mega ministries. Until that day, Kingdom money will continue to be wasted while the gullible sheep fork their money over to support their rock-star pastor.
And Southern Baptist Convention - wake up - because the mega wasters are no longer just the Benny Hinns and Creflo Dollars and the Kenneth Copelands - they have crept into our own ranks.
This guy is lying. He said he wasnt trying to hide the airplane but the news report said that his employees denied its existence. The point is these guys live lavish lifestyles and steal from their ignorant, kool aid drinking sheep. None of the stuff they buy is necessary. They can settle with less but just dont want to. There is nothing in Young's message to "set the record straight." The record was set straight on the news story. Thats it.
ReplyDelete"Great spirits always receive violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein
ReplyDeleteEvery member of the church should know what their pastor makes - in total compensation etc. That is a no-brainer. And it's not that hard to do. If it's available in advance, you needn't have meetings like this.
ReplyDeleteThe plane thing is also easy. If the church leases a plane (instead of owning it), just say that. You might explain what the lease cost is, and why the plane is necessary.
This doesn't have to be that hard.
Louis
Off Topic:
ReplyDeleteGrace and Truth to You [Wade Burleson] > Lukewarm Churches Are Those That Neither Heal Nor Refresh.
Might I propose that churches and church leadership that bring neither healing nor refreshment to sinners are "poor," "blind," and "naked.?" Might it also be true that churches who work hard to build an empire but lose sight of helping those who are spiritually wounded, oppressed and needy are "miserable and wretched?" I personally think this is the proper intepretation of Jesus' words to the church at Laodicea.
"Great spirits always receive violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein
ReplyDelete__________________________________
"I was poor and you didn't feed me. I was naked and you didn't clothe me..." JESUS
"The word of god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. '
-- Albert Einstein
The real tragedy is not that these so called pastors/preachers/shepherds are greedy and worldly, but that the money they spend is being "robbed" from the orphan and widow and poor and hungry. Every dime was given "to God" out of a desire to love and minister to others. Yet Mac and Ed take it for themselves. Sure, they are not called to be paupers. But shouldn't they trust God and live on a salary and benefits they could be proud to show to the sheep? Why is it that you donors who stand and applaud these guys will NEVER, EVER, EVER, know how much they take out of the offering plate in total compensation. Think about that every time you drop anything in the bag next week.
ReplyDeleteThe more I reflect on this, the more disgusted I am that John Cross, the guy who is the president of the Florida Baptist Convention, flew out there to that church to defend the use of a jet airplane by the pastor of that church.
ReplyDeleteI would think that it is indefensible. A Southern Baptist Pastor needs to lease a plane to fly to speaking gigs all over the world. Is that the standard that we know the pastor has made it, that he has enough revenue from his church to fly in a plush jet?
They have mastered the art of spin well enough to consider a 2012 presidential run.
ReplyDeleteAnd their sheeple are not "ignorant." If they still attend and give, they are knowingly and willingly right in there on the band wagon. I mean private jet.
1. COOL that one local church can afford such things financially.
ReplyDelete2. STUPID that this well-known local church---its members, ministers, trustees, etc.---let the thing get out of control administratively and created this mess.
3. THE GOSPEL: priceless. PREACHERS: worthless, much of the time---at least, those who seem to think it's all about them and their preaching. It's not.
4. NO senior pastor anywhere does enough work during any month of the year to deserve a salary over $100,000 annually---NO SENIOR PASTOR (and if his church's members believe he does, then they should look more closely at their associate ministers---who save that pastor's backside continually!). If he is, what he does with it provides much insight to his spiritual life and leadership skills.
5. WORK MADE FOR HIRE: congregations owns all their pastors' sermons and anything else produced by them while on the churches' time during their employment (unless a contract spells out other terms---but usually no such contract is in place, or the possibility even known about).
6. DON'T join a church without knowing the salary/benefits paid to the senior pastor---and without comparing it to that paid to other staff members---unless you potentially want to contribute to administrative problems and/or financial disparities. DON'T take "no" for an answer about it.
7. PASTORS are paid a "total salary" from which they are permitted by the IRS to designate a portion as "housing," "retirement" (pre-tax), etc. The remaining undesignated portion is "salary" and they are taxed on that amount (see the tax codes). The designations must be approved by the congregation/designees and are proactive---not retroactive---to the date of approval. The designations may be changed depending upon life circumstances.
7. I am an experienced Baptist pastor, satisfactorily paid for now.
I cannot imagine any possible reason that Fellowship Church or Ed Young should need a private jet. DFW Airport is only 4 miles from Fellowship's main campus. DFW has hundreds and hundreds of daily flights. You can fly non-stop to 171 different destinations. There are 10 daily non-stop flights in each direction to Miami which is the only non-local Fellowship Church campus.
ReplyDeleteI wish Ed would have explained why it is necessary to lease a jet aircraft and take on the tremendous operating expenses in addition to lease payments.
"The more I reflect on this, the more disgusted I am that John Cross, the guy who is the president of the Florida Baptist Convention, flew out there to that church to defend the use of a jet airplane by the pastor of that church."
ReplyDeleteAnd we must make it known. He defended more than a jet airplane. He defended merchandising the gospel for profit. So, we should check him out. What is his church? Have the bylaws been changed since he went there?
The ignorant sheep must be educated what is modeled in the Word. They have no clue.
Einsteins life or beliefs do not negate the validity of the truth he spoke.
ReplyDelete"The more I reflect on this, the more disgusted I am that John Cross, the guy who is the president of the Florida Baptist Convention, flew out there to that church to defend the use of a jet airplane by the pastor of that church."
ReplyDeleteThis is purely speculation, but remember Johnny Hunt's private-jet jaunt to Jax in September to dine at the Chart House with Mac and then to Daytona to "encourage" Mac's deacons at their retreat/conference? Maybe Ed sent his jet to Florida for Cross. It is the SBC good old boys way now, isn't it? Of course, Ed's made sure no one can track where that plane goes. That information is "not available for tracking per request from the owner/operator."
"NO senior pastor anywhere does enough work during any month of the year to deserve a salary over $100,000 annually---NO SENIOR PASTOR"
ReplyDeleteAmen and AAAAAMEEEEEN Brother.
Birds of a feather "fly together"!!
ReplyDeleteEinsteins life or beliefs do not negate the validity of the truth he spoke.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 8, 2010 9:58 PM
What are great spirits? And what do you consider as 'violent' opposition?
It is worldly what some people consider great. I suppose you consider Ed Young as "great". I would consider Jesus Christ as great. He had REAL violent opposition.
Worship Young if you must. But remember, that will send you to hell. But I would gather that a Young follower knows more human quotes than the Word.
"4. NO senior pastor anywhere does enough work during any month of the year to deserve a salary over $100,000 annually---NO SENIOR PASTOR"
ReplyDeleteAnon I totaly agree with you!!!
If the man is in it for Christ,then the money won't matter!
But if he is in it for himself,all that matters will be the money!!!
"He is a wolf"!!!
Jesus stated as clearly as it could possibly be stated,with emphasis,"YOU CAN'T LOVE BOTH GOD AND MONEY.YOU WILL EITHER LOVE ONE AND HATE THE OTHER".!
Key word,"YOU CAN'T DO BOTH"!!!
That's one of the many Bible verses that I base the fact on,that if you see a greedy preacher,pastor,minister;whatever,and he plundering the money for high end living!
Secondly pay very close attention to what sections of the Bible he consistantly preaches from,and the content of his preaching.
He will never teach about to countless warning in the Bible that reveal the very characterist that would expose him as a greedy fraud!
The results are the type of believers or professing believers that come on this blog to defend these rogue pastors!
You have to pity these people,because they have never been shown the entirey of Sciprture,and therefore their in the dark.
Their reactions are first confusion,then it is to side with the charlatan,and it's because they can't rise above what they know of Scripture!!!
John MacAuthur open eyes long ago when he was preaching on false teachers and how to spot them,with this statement::
"It's not always what they say,But it is what they "DON'T SAY"!!!
Below is a great perspective on the "Town Hall" meeting at Young's church Saturday 2/6. Some good pictures of the inside of the luxury jet.
ReplyDeleteEd Young's Admissions Are More Damning Than The Original News Story
Hey look, Botox is expensive. How else does one maintain without a million + a year? come on now.
ReplyDeleteYEAH WHO'S ROBBING GOD NOW????
ReplyDeleteWhere is the outrage over this wolf??? Look at how the Bakkers lived back in the '80's. We all remember how that turned out when it was finally made public. My how far we've come (or fallen even further, if that is possible) where lifestyles like this, on the backs of Believers, is not only considered acceptable, but is defended.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the outrage over this wolf??? Look at how the Bakkers lived back in the '80's. We all remember how that turned out when it was finally made public. My how far we've come (or fallen even further, if that is possible) where lifestyles like this, on the backs of Believers, is not only considered acceptable, but is defended.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 9, 2010 12:22 PM
But folks are not outraged anymore. They are proud of their successful leaders.
That is how far the health and wealth Gospel has seeped into the church. Now, folks think that God is actually blessing these people. And they think it is no one's business. In fact, to even question this sort of thing is cosidered sin and/or gossip.
Is it not our business when wolves misrepresent the Word in both word and deed?
I am afraid that pastors like Jon think we must fly to Dallas, try to see Young (they are usually pretty isolated from the masses and are always 'very busy') and confront him before we ever say a word about his behavior and sermons that are quite public.
It defies logic to me.
Matt
PS: The Health and Wealth doctrine is about more than just money. It can include celebrity. More folks are attracted to recognition than money. For some, it is both.
"Matt
ReplyDeletePS: The Health and Wealth doctrine is about more than just money. It can include celebrity. More folks are attracted to recognition than money. For some, it is both."
February 9, 2010 12:42 PM
Matt I agree with you that this love of celebrity,and I personally think coupled with an abysmal ignorance of Scripture,is one of the most dangerous epics that Christendom has ever faced.
I really believe that the prosperity gospel along with the many other pseudo christian heretics and heresies,are rapidly leading us to the apostasy!!!
This love of celebrity,along with this massive dumbing down of Biblical truth,will set I believe in the ultimate celebrities,the Anti-christ and the False Prophet!!!
It's funny how you say no pastor should make more than $100,000. How much do you think John MacArthur makes?
ReplyDelete" Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's funny how you say no pastor should make more than $100,000. How much do you think John MacArthur makes?"
February 9, 2010 1:42 PM
Anon have you ever listen to john for any lenght of time?
Or have read many of his countless books?
How in the world can you even compare the ramblings of Ed Young to the preaching John MacAuthur?
I'll will assure you of this,he's not rolling a bed out on stage and espousing some of the ridiculous garbage coming out the mouth of Ed Young!!!
It's all a joke to these guys. Young probably laughed all the way to the bank after those blind who stood and gave him a standing ovation and he counted the "offering".
ReplyDeleteThe S B C Great Fishin Commission will probably come out in their report to say;
The New Southern Baptist Motto from this day forward should be or is:
Southern Baptist Convention Pastors, " We're flying high for you so you can see Jesus!"
They make me want to upchuck! Bunch of Pharisees
If you listen to John MacArthur for a while, one of the frequent comments you will hear him make about the church today is that it is sorely lacking in discernment. These articles that WD has been posting lately, absolutely confirm that observation of MacArthur. We have definitely entered the era when people will not endure sound doctrine and are easily led astray by false teachers.
ReplyDeleteHooray for Brett Shipp at Channel 8 for uncovering this profiteer of the gospel. I attended Fellowship Church for several years and left because of the constant hounding for money and the constant pushing of Ed Young's merchandise. Fellowship Church is a relentless money making machine. Being accountable to your fishing buddies and ol'-pals of 30+ years is no accountability at all.
ReplyDeleteWhat's most amazing is that members of his church are in essence saying "I don't care what he does as long as I get what I want". Unbelievable.
Dr. Who Said:
ReplyDelete"They make me want to upchuck! Bunch of Pharisees" . . .
=========================
Last Sunday morning on TV a Jacksonville SBC preacher in his sermon said the problem in todays modern day churches is that churches are filled with "Pharisees" who are sitting in the pews who are only there to stir up trouble. They are the people who grumble and critize and get easily offended when they don't agree with the operation of the leadership.
Why do you never hear these preachers speak up about the many "Pharisees" who call theirselves Pastors who stand in the pulpit when they or their peers in the ministry do wrong. Always silence when it comes to one of them.
These preachers must take a strong brotherhood oath to never preach about the "Pharisees" amongst their own. Instead when trouble comes they lay the blame on the feet of the congregation who sit in the pews.
I appreciate the pastors who share on this blog and denounce what they feel is so very wrong with the lifestyles and activity of these modern day mega preachers.
Thanks for your encouragment!
"Last Sunday morning on TV a Jacksonville SBC preacher in his sermon said the problem in todays modern day churches is that churches are filled with "Pharisees" who are sitting in the pews who are only there to stir up trouble. They are the people who grumble and critize and get easily offended when they don't agree with the operation of the leadership."
ReplyDeleteI saw that Dr.Who and I was disgusted.I really respected Canor or however his name is spelled!
But that was nothing less than a cloak and hide the dagger statment to keep the sheep in the dark,and make sure that any dissent(Dr.Dog) against the rich celebrity pastor is squashed!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5CXQGCxphU
ReplyDeleteWatchdog Report
Bro./Pastor Rod H.,
ReplyDeleteI have listened to John MacArthur and read his books, and I am NOT comparing his teaching or style to Young. I was simply responding to the people who said NO senior pastor should make $100,000 or more per year.
John MacArthur is a name that has been espoused before by some of the commentators on this blog, so I was simply throwing his name out there in terms of salary and a pastor's pay.
Dr. MacArthur pastors a large church and ministry, so I'm sure he makes a significant but appropriate salary. But for someone to say no pastor should make $100,000 or more is simply ignorance and does not take into account the realities of compensation, region of the country, and the other factors that are involved. $100,000 in New York is different than $100,000 in other parts of the country.
And too, everyone should keep in mind that not everyone can pastor and oversee a large flock like someone like Dr. MacArthur. So my opinion? He's worth what he is paid.
According to this web site, Dr. MacArthur makes more than $100,000:
http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5877
In my opinion, he's well worth what he's paid.
And so are many other pastors.
And there are a lot of church folk and church people who abuse their pastors and underpay them.
Einsteins life or beliefs do not negate the validity of the truth he spoke.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 8, 2010 9:58 PM
___________________________________
"The Fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." GOD
Dr. MacArthur's salary with "Grace to You" is $160,000. His salary at Grace Community is an additional $180,000. I understand that his housing allowance is $45,000-$55,000, medical is $9,000 and retirement is $18,000. Add that up and you are at $415,000+.
ReplyDeleteSo if you would like to backtrack off of the simplistic, inmature "No Pastor should make more than $100,000 a year" It only speaks to your lack of reality.
Most Senior Student Ministers at large churches make $100,000...but they also have masters degrees, experience and oversee multi staff members and parent ministries, camps, trips, discipleship. If my daughters and my son were under a 100,000 salary of a youth pastor and he was doing a great job - I'd have no qualms at all.
Jon
"According to this web site, Dr. MacArthur makes more than $100,000:"
ReplyDeletehttp://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5877
Thanks for your point of veiw,and it is well taken!!!
But what does amaze me is that Johnny Mac is making less than half of what Brunson makes,and five times less than Ed Young makes,and neither one is half as relevent as MacAuthur!
anon 7:21:
ReplyDeleteYou're paying Tom a great compliment if you're comparing him to the man the "Watchdog" character in that movie was based on. Google "Marvin Zindler."
Oh Yes, Senior Student ministers at large churches should be making 100,000. After all, when they are 40 and working with the adults, they should be making a million per year. That is how it goes, right?
ReplyDeleteIt is very important that those making less than 30,000 grand a year at the church support those making 100,000. That makes perfect sense.
McArthur makes too much, too. And running a para church organization on the side is low down. Most of them do it. It is ego and money.
All you that are leaving comments on here an even the person that was on the news report..why are you scared to give your names, why does everything have to be "Anonymous"..You have not problem calling someone out when you are hidden and "confront' them, but you deny them the opportunity to "confront" you by id'ing yourself. Even the person that is "FBC Jax Watchdog" you can't even id yourself...this is a a very cowardice act in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteAll you that are leaving comments on here an even the person that was on the news report..why are you scared to give your names, why does everything have to be "Anonymous"..You have not problem calling someone out when you are hidden and "confront' them, but you deny them the opportunity to "confront" you by id'ing yourself. Even the person that is "FBC Jax Watchdog" you can't even id yourself...this is a a very cowardice act in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 10, 2010 12:44 PM
Unless you have been living in a cave, everyone knows who the watchdog is because he was outed. Without the media outing, it would have been worse for him, I think. Now, he has some protection from the Baptist Mafia.
You simply have no clue how they operate, do you? Churches are pretty much exempt from most laws and it is almost impossible to sue them unless you have deep pockets or someone is willing to take your case. Mega churches ruin people all the time, you just don't hear about. They cannot afford dissent or any public questioning. Because their entire existence is about IMAGE.
To give you a recent example, a friend of mine on a mega church commmittee found that some documents were doctored to give a false impressoin to the pew sitters. She brought this up in committee and was stunned to find that the committee voted to keep that quiet and present the report as it. (It was cause too much damage to admit truth)
She was appalled and resigned. Well, a back door campaign was instituted against her with gossip that she resigned because she could not get along with the committee members and only wanted her own way. They, conveniently left out about the doctored reports.
Now, she is shunned by many at her church and they believe a lie. Everyone always believes the majority and esp in a mega church where they are taught to blindly follow.
Her boss is a membe of the mega and he was told the same thing and it has affected her position at work. He views her differently than he used to. She tried to tell him the truth but since the pastor and others have told him different, he believes the 'man of God'.
Wouldn't she have been smarter to keep her mouth shut and go along?
I say, bring on anonymous and let us check the facts. Let the churches be transparent about their practices and money. Why shouldn't they be. An anonymous accusation is a leadership moment to open the books.
BTW: How do I know who Robert is? There a few zillion of them around.
FBC Jax Watchdog, I am an SBC Pastor, Ido ont know ED Young, Steve Gaines, or Mac Brunson personally. The problem I am having is why are you, FBC Jax Watchdog,so concerned about Young and Gaines.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, he's well worth what he's paid.
ReplyDeleteAnd so are many other pastors.
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So what? I won't be sacrificing my family's needs to fund these guys lifestyle. I'll let you pay it since you believe that. I would rather give "God's money" to help the poor, orphan and widow. Not to the "deserving millionaire pastor."
FBC Jax Watchdog, I am an SBC Pastor, Ido ont know ED Young, Steve Gaines, or Mac Brunson personally. The problem I am having is why are you, FBC Jax Watchdog,so concerned about Young and Gaines.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 11, 2010 11:27 AM
___________________________________
Who are you? And why are you so concerned with who the WD is concerned with?
FBC Jax Watchdog, I am an SBC Pastor, Ido ont know ED Young, Steve Gaines, or Mac Brunson personally. The problem I am having is why are you, FBC Jax Watchdog,so concerned about Young and Gaines.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 11, 2010 11:27 AM
Sounds like something an SBC "pastor" would ask.
"The problem I am having is why are you, FBC Jax Watchdog,so concerned about Young and Gaines."
ReplyDeleteWhy are you, an SBC pastor, so concerned about the Watchdog?
;-)
[Speaking of MacArthur, I just spied this on the net. Marybelle]
ReplyDeleteWho knows, maybe John (Reformedispy) MacArthur is right and the greatest Greek scholars (Google "Famous Rapture Watchers"), who uniformly said that Rev. 3:10 means PRESERVATION THROUGH, were wrong. But John has a conflict. On the one hand, since he knows that all Christian theology and organized churches before 1830 believed the church would be on earth during the tribulation, he would like to be seen as one who stands with the great Reformers. On the other hand, if John has a warehouse of unsold pretrib rapture material, and if he wants to have "security" for his retirement years and hopes that the big California quake won't louse up his plans, he has a decided conflict of interest. Maybe the Lord will have to help strip off the layers of his seared conscience which have grown for years in order to please his parents and his supporters - who knows? One thing is for sure: pretrib is truly a house of cards and is so fragile that if a person removes just one card from the TOP of the pile, the whole thing can collapse. Which is why pretrib teachers don't dare to even suggest they could be wrong on even one little subpoint! Don't you feel sorry for the straitjacket they are in? While you're mulling all this over, Google "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" for a rare behind-the-scenes look at the same 180-year-old fantasy.
How interesting that after Young spoke to his congregation there are still people trying to insinuate, instigate, and investigate. We are not God and can never assume that we know that heart of a person or if they are or not telling the truth. We my try to insinuate that someone is being untruthful but how can we truly know? I have learned to believe everyone until they prove me wrong. Short of showing his tax papers some will never be satisfied. There are also those who love to instigate problems in the body of Christ. Usually those how instigate problems are the very ones who have undisclosed issues. I have really asked the Lord to search my heart before I post anything about anyone. The last are those who try to play detective and investigate the lives of others. The bible calls these individuals gossips and should be careful about what they spread. It is quite possible that these individuals how have done thier "homework" can be wrong.
ReplyDeleteIt is no wonder that the world sees the infighting and callous character destroying that they do not want anything to do with the church.