While the Tim Guthrie's and Norman Geisler's continue to live in their alternate universe where Ergun Caner never lied and has done nothing more than get a few insignificant facts wrong, and was not demoted by Liberty but was instead exonerated by them - more and more people inside and outside of evangelical Christianity are correctly assessing the Caner debacle.One such person who sees it is correctly is Peter Montgomery, writer for AlterNet.
Montgomery was one of the first writers to do an in-depth story critical of Caner back on May 10th, 2010 and in fact called Caner a "Jihadi Fraud". Within a few days of his article being published, Liberty University changed its tune and announced they would be doing an investigation.
This morning Montgomery has another article up declaring Caner to be "demoted" and "stripped of his leadership positions", and gives an excellent summary of Caner's deceit, the blogger's efforts in exposing it, and the resulting controversy over Liberty's investigation and actions.
No matter how hard Guthrie and Geisler try to spin the story and make it about lying Muslims, recalcitrant bloggers and heretical Calvinists out to bring a good man down, people inside and outside of evangelical Christianity are seeing the Caner debacle for what it really is: a guy who misled gullible Christians for nearly an entire decade into believing he was a former "towel head" and "sand nigger" (Caner's words) Jihadist trained in 9/11 style terrorism who spoke Arabic. And when found out, he was demoted and stripped of his leadership position at his seminary. Is it really that hard to see the truth of what has happened?
As more people do see the truth, Geisler's and Guthrie's task becomes more difficult, and the list of those they must attack grows. First it was just a "lying Muslim", then a few crazy bloggers, then heretical Calvinists. Now it is publishers with the initials HH, and probably liberal media writers will be added to their list.
Expect Geisler and/or Guthrie (if we can track the whereabouts of Guthrie's blog site) to post an article within 48 hours telling us how we can't trust anything on Alternet or written by Peter Montgomery because they are liberals. I can see it now: yes, liberals are all lying, like Muslims, and bloggers, further proof of Caner's exoneration.
Sad thing is, the harder and harder Geisler and Guthrie defend Caner and attack his critics, the more difficult it makes it for their friend to confess and ask for forgiveness from those he has deceived on the evangelical speaking circuit. At this point, if Caner does make a public statement apologizing, it will confirm the idiocy of his ardent supporters.
Winning Truth w/Tim Guthrie
ReplyDeleteI am afraid truth has taken a back seat in Tim Guthrie's writings and ramblings.
Montgomery's interpretation of the term "investigation" is interesting. Back in May he did a good job of editing together work other people had done into a coherent narrative, but I don't recall him doing any investigation.
ReplyDeleteNow it looks like he's taking credit for work other people did; again he's editing together pieces from other people's blogs and suggesting AlterNet had something to do with Caner's demotion.
Am I missing something here? Did Montgomery go find any court documents? Or dig up any incriminating audio or video clips?
Am I missing something here? Did Montgomery go find any court documents? Or dig up any incriminating audio or video clips?
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2010 9:55 AM
I think you might be missing the point. the evidence is obvious is you actually listen to Caner's talks. Smathers got evidence of the lies and so did others. Where is evidence of Caner's debates with Muslim Imams?
The point is Liberty was only concerned about the size of the audience of those critisizing.
When our celebrity Christians sin publicly, the secular world that hates us is going to jump on it.
ReplyDeleteWe should not fight them. they are unbelievers. We should clean up our own house and quit defending our liars and charlatans.
"We should clean up our own house and quit defending our liars and charlatans."
ReplyDeleteNot just 'quit defending', GO AFTER them as Jesus did with the moneychangers. We should demand that Christian leaders live HUMBLE lifestyles.
We don't need good ol' boy elders and boards of directors. There should be no 'ministry' which is not completely transparent.
They've been subliminally selling us miracles and seats in Heaven, all the while wheedling us for God's money and competing for each other's flocks.
Make a decent salary, yes, but let's make them compete to show us humble lifestyles. The truly-called will rise.
Reading the comments in the AlterNet article, explains why this crisis of Ergun Caner fabrications are so damaging to the proclamation of The Gospel. Tom Chantry said it well here.
ReplyDeleteI AGREE. LETS get rid of the trustees and seek pastors who don't ask for BIG BUCKS as starters. Then renounce wives and family members on staff positions. Also, no outside trips and speaking gigs...then and only then will be get pastors who really want to be a LOCAL CHURCH PREACHER.
ReplyDeleteI AGREE. LETS get rid of the trustees and seek pastors who don't ask for BIG BUCKS as starters. Then renounce wives and family members on staff positions. Also, no outside trips and speaking gigs...then and only then will be get pastors who really want to be a LOCAL CHURCH PREACHER.
ReplyDeleteJuly 17, 2010 4:59 PM
The problem is deeper than that. Pew sitters love their celebrities and are proud if it is their own.
I don’t know where else to write but here, so that everyone would hear. I met with Dr. Caner last week and had a private conversation with him at a youth camp. I assured him and made a personal commitment that I would pray for him and his family. He is obviously troubled and tortured by the world-wide press of his situation. After we met, he preached a fantastic message to the youth. It was awesome. God’s hand is still on him. Several young people surrendered to full time ministry at the altar call, one was my daughter. I don’t know any other way to say this but to say it, pray for this tortured man of God. Was he wrong? Yes. Is there mercy and grace in the Lord? Absolutely. Making a commitment to pray is not justifying wrongdoing, however the steady stream of criticism is not only harming the Caner family but the cause of Christ. I know, I know, I’m prepared for negative comments…I’ve read just about every blog, article and watched lots of vids. Now is the time for mercy and grace, not beating this poor man into the ground.
ReplyDeleteMike DeLong wrote, "Now it looks like he's taking credit for work other people did..."
ReplyDeleteI think he is just using the reasoning, 'post hoc ergo propter hoc,' which of course is not very good reasoning! He wrote his prior article, then Liberty investigated, therefore he takes credit for the investigation.
Wow, Guthrie's site is hard to read! White text on black background is quite a strain.
ReplyDelete" God’s hand is still on him."
ReplyDeleteI do not understand this comment. It is one of those cliches that is thrown out there by pastors that makes little sense in the light of facts?
Are you saying he is repentant by this comment? Or,are you saying that because he has great oratory skills, it must be true?
" Several young people surrendered to full time ministry at the altar call, one was my daughter."
The altar call means nothing. It could be emotionalism. Why not wait and see before announcing this? They are not notches on a belt.
" I don’t know any other way to say this but to say it, pray for this tortured man of God. Was he wrong? Yes."
Pray for those young people he spoke to. What are they being taught? One can lie for 9 years publicly and still keep on preaching to people without even acknowledging his own lies?
Incredible what is being passed off as Christianity these days.
" Is there mercy and grace in the Lord? Absolutely."
God is not mocked,pastor friend. So,stop mocking what is mercy and grace. Jesus preached: Repent and believe. Not just believe. You are selling cheap grace.
" Making a commitment to pray is not justifying wrongdoing, however the steady stream of criticism is not only harming the Caner family but the cause of Christ."
Think about this logically if you can. The "CRITICISM" is NOT hurting the cause of Christ. A lying seminary professor and preacher hurts the cause of Christ.
Caner hurt his own family with his continual lies. Why can't he be a man and face up to that publicly? He is big into telling everyone what a real man is...so why not model that when it comes to himself?
" I know, I know, I’m prepared for negative comments…I’ve read just about every blog, article and watched lots of vids. Now is the time for mercy and grace, not beating this poor man into the ground."
Now is the time for repentance. But what is he doing? He is out speaking to young people. We have lost our minds. This is NOT Christianity. It is the broad road and you are part of that. Which is why many of us no longer trust the title "pastor". It means little these days.
I did cut and paste the same post on Turrenfan and Debbie Kaufman’s blog. Once I posted it at T-fan, I thought I would also post in on other key blogs. I did not edit it which is my fault. My apologies.
ReplyDeleteTo the West Virginia Pastor,
ReplyDeleteWe agree with your comments, but he needs to re-evaluate his role in how to serve the Lord.
I personally will always question his awesome messages - but is it truth or fiction?
"He is obviously troubled and tortured by the world-wide press of his situation."
ReplyDeleteWhy is he not obviously troubled and tortured by his sin?
I was on a flight from Jacksonville to Atlanta last week and seated by a woman, probably in her mid 40's. I was rereading an book by the pollster, George Barna, entitled "Revolution." It is about the movement of evangelical Christians away from the churches, while continuing a deep relationship with the Lord. About 10 minutes into the flight the woman leaned over to me, nudged my arm and whispered "sir, are you saved?" A bit taken aback, I responded,"does it show?" She said, "it's that book you're reading." She had seen the chapter heading: "How Is The Local Church Doing?" I told her a little about the book (that was the beginning of my third reading). She said to me: "that sounds like me and my husband; he sitting back there a couple of rows behind. There are six of us scattered around the plane. We are on our was to South America to do some mission work. We love God and love hurting people and are committed to doing whatever we can to help, in Jesus' name. But I'll tell you what we will never do again. We will never again give our money to help preaches buy fancy cars, live in fancy homes on land given to them in expensive gated communities, and we certainly will never give another penny to build a big arena where people are entertained and they call it worshiping the Lord." WOW! Anyone want to guess where she and her husband went to church until several months ago.
ReplyDelete"He is obviously troubled and tortured by the world-wide press of his situation."
ReplyDeleteWhy is he not obviously troubled and tortured by his sin?
July 18, 2010 11:26 AM
Bingo.
Over 9 years and to thousands. Why has he not repented in all that time? Repentance is a gift from God. Do people understand that?
Do our paid leaders understand what is Holiness? Obviously not.
WVA Pastor tried all the tricks of the trade. First he describes himself as a pastor which is supposed to carry weight. then he describes altar calls for ministry due to Caner's talk which is supposed to override lying for 9 years. Then the whiney stuff about how tortured Caner is and his suffering family (which he caused!)but yet still will not come clean.
All the tricks were there. I am so glad they are working on fewer and fewer people. Maybe some headway is being made and people will run away from these guys and seek out the true Jesus Christ and what it means to really follow Him. it is not a broad road.
FFBI - Guthrie's blog is hard to read in many ways. :)
ReplyDeleteGuthrie's latest post:
ReplyDelete"When Critics Go To Far"
I'm not sure where "Far" is, because he says that is where critics are going to. Or maybe he means when they go "too" far.
:)
"I'm not sure where "Far" is, because he says that is where critics are going to. Or maybe he means when they go "too" far."
ReplyDeleteIt's short for "Far, Far Away"
:-D
I think this is the youth camp WV Pastor was referring to. It is Momentum 2010 and was held at Cedarville University in Cedarville, Ohio. It was held July 12-18.
ReplyDeleteUnder “Speakers”, here is what it has to say about Caner:
“Ergun Mehmet Caner (B.A., M.A., M.Div., Th.M., Th.D.) is president of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and Graduate School at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. Raised as the son of a Muslim leader in Turkey, Caner became a Christian shortly before entering college. Serving under his Chancellor and President, Jerry Falwell Jr., Caner led the Seminary to triple in growth since his installation in 2005. A public speaker and apologist, Caner has debated Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus and other religious leaders in thirteen countries and thirty-five states. The author of seventeen books, Caner lives in Lynchburg with his wife Jill and two sons, Braxton and Drake.”
If one looks at his picture, Caner’s head is tilted, almost like he can’t look anyone straight in the eye!
http://buildmomentum.org/youth-conference-speakers.asp
Among the repertoire of Christian leaders, is having us believe they are somehow closer to the Lord than we. Some will declare that the Holy Spirit actually gave them messages for us.
ReplyDeleteWho were those who made the decision to hire Mr Caner? Did they neglect to consult the Holy Spirit on the matter?
Well, the "message" I see revisited here and elsewhere is it's time to stop turning faith into a money tree for these guys.
I like the idea of making them compete to show us who can live the most humble lifestyle.
We don't need big ministries, big stage performances, big conferences, big clothing budgets, big cruises, or big "you'll get closer to God in Israel" kickbacks.
Technology has changed the entertainment industry, let's use it to change the selling of faith industry.
The selling of politicians prevents the rise of statesmen, let's give rise to good preachers with a chance to be truly humble.
LA
I wonder if any of the "mega preachers" feel any remorse for bringing these "story tellers" into the pulpits of their churches. I don't mean remorse as in how stupid it makes them look, but, remorse in having fostered a false preacher on the gullible flock in the pews. I am thinking of one mega ego in particular that should be at least repentant for his support in this questionable situation. Silence is not always golden.
ReplyDeleteThe only real story in all this is that the SBC is becoming, if not already, the most irrelevant and ineffective denomination on the planet.
ReplyDeleteNow is the time for mercy and grace, not beating this poor man into the ground.
ReplyDeleteJuly 18, 2010 6:53 AM
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Good point. Are you talking about Michael Jackson? Or O.J. Simpson? Or Daryl Gilyard? Or Tom Messer? Or Mac Brunson. Your general platitudes would fit any man in any situation. I will pray and support Caner AFTER he admits all his lies, why he lied, how he gained fame and fortune from it, and shows true repentance. Otherwise, he is no different from fans of the above men. Jimmy Swaggart and Richard Roberts would love you.
3 key thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. Is Ergun a Brother in Christ?
Yes, he is.
2. How does the Bible say we are to treat him?
Galatians says that we are to gently restore him.
3. How are many Bloggers treating him?
They are treating him like he is a leper.
What a shame that we as Believers want to destroy instead of restore, we want to punish instead of pray and we will have to answer to the Lord for the lack of compassion for one of His Kids.
"3 key thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. Is Ergun a Brother in Christ?
Yes, he is."
Can you define what is a Christian? According to your definition, Bill Clinton is a Christian. And he was not even a seminary president or minister of the Word.
If following that Christ is so easy then what was the point of the Cross? We do not have to become new creatures or really born again. We can be unrepentent liars and ignore Revelation 21 as if it does not apply to us.
"2. How does the Bible say we are to treat him?
Galatians says that we are to gently restore him."
Caner is the expert. He was a seminary president and minister of the Word. He was paid to be a Christian leader. And he did not even have to abide by the Liberty Honor Code as the students do.
"3. How are many Bloggers treating him?
They are treating him like he is a leper."
Hyperbole is silly but Caner used lots of it for 9 years.
":What a shame that we as Believers want to destroy instead of restore, we want to punish instead of pray and we will have to answer to the Lord for the lack of compassion for one of His Kids."
Where is your compassion and Love for the ONE Who Hung on the Cross? That blood was not cheap. Stop treating it so cheap.
I suppose you are angry at Liberty for "punishing" him, too.
'Jimmy Swaggart and Richard Roberts would love you."
ReplyDeleteAnd Ted Haggard. He could not stay away. Making money in ministry is all he knows. And he promised his accountability crew he would stay out of ministry. The PR campaign he and his wife have started is shameless.
This is also all Caner knows: The audiences, the "talks", being on stage, the fame, etc. He can't give it up.
And it has nothing to do with Christ. it is all about Caner.
For one who seems so interested in the truth, you take a lot of liberties in the truth and let falsehoods permeate your blog. You know the truth and that is that Caner confessed before an assembly at Liberty months ago. You also know that Liberty has placed a gag order on him talking about any of this at all. He can neither "confess" anything or defend himself. You know the routine. So who is being honest now? You harm the Kingdom.
ReplyDeleteFor one who seems so interested in the truth, you take a lot of liberties in the truth and let falsehoods permeate your blog. You know the truth and that is that Caner confessed before an assembly at Liberty months ago. You also know that Liberty has placed a gag order on him talking about any of this at all. He can neither "confess" anything or defend himself. You know the routine. So who is being honest now? You harm the Kingdom.
ReplyDeleteJuly 19, 2010 4:10 PM
___________________________________
How do we know your post is not also full of falsehoods. How would WD "know" any of the above? What proof do YOU have that any of it is true? Perhaps you are spreading falsehoods and harming the kingdom? Who are you and how do know such things. I don't believe you. You are spreading falsehoods and harming the kingdom.
Anon 4:10, you said:
ReplyDelete"For one who seems so interested in the truth, you take a lot of liberties in the truth and let falsehoods permeate your blog. You know the truth and that is that Caner confessed before an assembly at Liberty months ago. You also know that Liberty has placed a gag order on him talking about any of this at all. He can neither "confess" anything or defend himself. You know the routine. So who is being honest now? You harm the Kingdom."
If you give me more specifics on the Caner confession "before an assembly", I can better tell you if I'm aware of it. Perhaps you are referring to remarks he made at the LU "Campus Church" in Feb 10 which was not an apology for anything specific. But if you tell me what you're referring to I can reply.
As far as a "gag order"; no, I'm not aware of that. Perhaps they don't want him speaking anymore of his past, but how on earth would they, could they, tell a man he can't apologize to someone?
Since you seem to know so much, perhaps you can characterize what he WOULD say, if only he could, if only LU would not have gagged him. What would he say if not for the LU "gag order"?
Announcing the numbers of commitments and calls into the ministry mean nothing because it doesn't always mean anything.
ReplyDeleteIn my own youth group, about twenty of us surrendered to the ministry, including myself. How many of us went to seminary? Zero. How many of us went to work for churches? Two. Ten years later, how many of us are still in the ministry? Zero. How many of us are still even active in churches? Three.
We had over one hundred decisions recently after a revival. We had a bump in attendance for about a month. Now, all the new faces are off doing what they were doing before the revival.
Numbers don't make change. Relationships make change.
Unfortunately, we hire/fire based on numbers and bemoan the lack of relationships.
"In my own youth group, about twenty of us surrendered to the ministry, including myself. How many of us went to seminary? Zero."
ReplyDeleteYou did not surrender or you would have seen it through. You sound like all those people who vow "till death do us part" but choose later to do things their own way.
The problem isn't with the preacher in your scenario but with the ignorant who surrender to the Lord but are unwilling to see it through.
I for one am glad you didn't follow it through, we don't need someone behind a pulpit like you.
Anonymous wrote: "What a shame that we as Believers want to destroy instead of restore..."
ReplyDeleteDo you counsel sinners not ever to repent, but only to 'stay the course'? Why do you identify repentance with destruction?
"You did not surrender or you would have seen it through. You sound like all those people who vow "till death do us part" but choose later to do things their own way."
ReplyDeleteNo, like a lot of young Christians, they responded to emotionalism in the moment. To the "call" of a human.
"The problem isn't with the preacher in your scenario but with the ignorant who surrender to the Lord but are unwilling to see it through."
Wrong. First of all a serious expositer of the Word would never "call" for someone to make a commitment to ministry at a youth function. That is the result of the showtime style of many evangelical churches today. It is about numbers. It is ridiculous.
"I for one am glad you didn't follow it through, we don't need someone behind a pulpit like you."
Lovely. I would much rather hear from someone who has seen the shallowness of what is called Evangelicalism and has seen the rotten fruit it has produced.
BTW: We are all "called" to ministry if we are true believers.
If you are serious about what you said above, listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wX_BPopbKI&annotation_id=annotation_38217&feature=iv
""In my own youth group, about twenty of us surrendered to the ministry, including myself. How many of us went to seminary? Zero.""
ReplyDeleteDid you lie or did you misspeak?
Regardless, did you go back and make a public statement of repentance? How many years ago was this?
"No, like a lot of young Christians, they responded to emotionalism in the moment. To the "call" of a human."
ReplyDeleteYet, that's not what you stated. You stated you surrendered to the ministry.
I guess you misspoke. ;-)
"Wrong. First of all a serious expositer of the Word would never "call" for someone to make a commitment to ministry at a youth function. That is the result of the showtime style of many evangelical churches today. It is about numbers. It is ridiculous."
Are you telling God what He can and can not do through a pastor at a youth event? Not wise.
I surrendered to the ministry at a youth event and am in full time ministry now. I'm glad someone didn't listen to you or I might have become a pastor basher.
"Lovely. I would much rather hear from someone who has seen the shallowness of what is called Evangelicalism and has seen the rotten fruit it has produced. "
I don't have to look far to see the rotten fruit. Just out to the kennels where the barking of the many is nonstop.