Friday, November 5, 2010
"Give and Live" Gospel in the SBC: Bring Ye All the Tithe Into My Mega Church - Or Else!
The sad thing about the Ed Young tithing controversy this week is this: He is not the only prominent preacher in the Southern Baptist Convention who is preaching this nonsense on the tithe, threatening people with curses and calamity for not forking over 10% to their mega church.
It would be easy to say Ed is just on the fringe, he is extreme. But it's not true. His theology is right in line with other prominent preachers in the SBC.
Take Mac Brunson and Steve Gaines, pastors of two of the most historic, influential churches in the Southern Baptist Convention. They both preach the tithe, and they preach it hard. Not to tithe is a sin, and a serious sin, no exceptions.
It is the new Southern Baptist repackaged prosperity Gospel...but instead of "health and wealth", it is a "give and live" gospel that says to live in the fullness of God's blessings as a Christian (and avoid his OT curses), you must give 10% minimum, and only to your 501(c)3 church. Undesignated. Anything less, and you are accursed. Don't give it to Haiti, or for the poor in your community, it all must come to the "storehouse", which conveniently happens to be the church where these men collect their hefty paychecks and bennies.
Gaines has accused his non-tithing church members of living in stolen homes and driving stolen cars. Gaines says a Christian's first 10% of charitable giving MUST go to their church in an undesignated fashion. None of that 10% should ever go to any other cause, Christian or secular.
Brunson accuses his non-tithers of stirring the wrath of God, causing God to bring judgement on America. Brunson says non-tithers have brought this recession on to their fellow citizens. He also says that "God collects", that if you don't give God what is owed him, like a mob boss God will hurt you financially. Or as Mac says, "poof", God will just blow your money away in the wind as retribution, so you lose what you should have given to God, because "God collects".
THAT is the tragedy. It is NOT just Ed Young. Ed is merely taking a false doctrine and carrying it out to its absurd, but logical conclusion. You see, if indeed God is in heaven and is extremely angry over us not dropping 10% in the offering plate (that would be 95% of us) - if indeed we have brought a "curse" on ourselves and our nation - if indeed we are living in stolen houses and we are criminals in God's eyes for not tithing - if God is indeed a cosmic bully who is kicking sand in the eyes of the weakling, unmanly non-tithers by blowing away his resources as Brunson says....if that is true....then all preachers should recommend, maybe even demand automatic withdrawl of the tithe. They should warn us that we are bringing a curse on our family, that our careers will suffer and financial calamity is around the corner for us.
And by golly, these preachers should be honest with non-Christians when they proclaim the gospel. Tell them that once they accept Jesus Christ and experience the freedom of forgiveness...that they will have to begin giving 10% of their income to their church else their new salvation will actually lead them into a curse, because God expects 10% minimum.
Watch the video above, as you can see these three preachers in action as they teach their people that 10% is the pathway to peace with God.
Health and wealth in the SBC. It started making it's way in after the CR.
ReplyDeleteBrunson and Gaines are both products of the CR. Many on the GCTF are also of the same type thinking.
These three clowns make me sick to my stomach.Maybe We will see them on one of TBN or Daystar's beg-a thons.
ReplyDeleteSo, my sincere question is Do they REALLY believe this or are they just preying on those they consider weak, unstudied etc. Salesman of the year material right there. Btw Dog you are gifted in your ability to expose this nonsense. You keep some of us sane.
ReplyDeleteWait a minute. You think this is only a mega church issue? If anyone does, you are so wrong.
ReplyDeleteThis is a "religion" wide issue. It is taught in Seminaries run by men in POWER and flows all the way downstream to even grass root churches.
It matters not what size of the church nowadays, it is the new motto.
Many disciples of these men have taken it all the way down to the smallest churches where most of the unknowing and innocent meet weekly and are siphoned of their funds because some disciple has taken up on the same tone as the mega's.
They use the "If you don't give, you're LOST" motto to scare funds out of the ignorant - and the ignorant give because who want to be known as an outcast.
I have personally even heard men who were disciples of these men or so called "DEACONS" come down on members of a church because they did not support these Pharisees.
So, it is not just the MEGA's - it is widespread and done in ways that make me want to upchuck...seriously!
Unfortunately these snake oil salesmen have enough Bens in their seats to make themselves very rich.
ReplyDelete"Unfortunately these snake oil salesmen have enough Bens in their seats to make themselves very rich."
ReplyDeleteNo one in the church I attend is getting rich of our tithes and offerings. The pastor believes, and rightly so, that tithing is still applicable today.
I don't think in a serious conversation with anyone here he would demand you believe the same way but I don't think he would back down because of unnecessary comments.
He is not a mega church pastor but he is a biblicist. Unlike I have been but am working to change (after I had a great talk with him), he would not stoop to name calling and personal attacks.
I am working on not slinging mud with anyone on this topic. A struggle for freedom.
Serious question here.
ReplyDeleteWe all know that churches in the Baptist Convention world are required to give to these conventions for the convention membership and having the "label" or Baptist name.
Is it possible that these conventions are pushing these ministers to collect more funds to send to them?
I know many (most all) Baptist conventions are having major budget issues. This is where the most powerful work and who have the largest paycheck and benefits.
Example? The Ga Baptist convention recently laid off 6 Ministerial Resource Consultant position due to funds being so low and the need of Robert White to maintain his buddies lifestyle. And oh yeah, he kept his buddy Mike "Evilson" Everson even though he was hired last.
Is it they are pressuring churches to send more than the 7% for the Conventions and the 3% to the Associational offices?
You did know this right? You knew churches are "required" to send them funds from your tithes?
If you want to make a real impact - designate ALL funds - so that the local church has to use the funds as YOU desire - not for airplanes, trips, vacations, etc.,
I love your point about informing those comig to Christ what the real deal is. There should be truth in advertising-like on your credit card bill, they can't have tiny print at the bottom about your interest rate. So much for "salvation, full and free."
ReplyDeleteLet people know upfront what it's gonna cost them to be part of this club.
Tithing through the church is a Biblical principle that transcends the law.
ReplyDeleteRightly teaching the tithe has nothing to do with being "under the law."
That being said, Christians should tithe, just as Christians should pray, just as Christians should read their Bible etc.
Are there consequences for not tithing? Yes, but there are consequences of not having a prayer life, not having a Bible Study life, and not having a worship life.
That being the case, there is no place in the pulpit for the foolishness and absurdity of Ed Young in his emphasis and presentation. He is making a mockery of the pastorate and the pulpit.
Health, Wealth, and the Prosperity Gospel is not healthy, wealthy or prosperous.
Because some men have perverted the basic principle does not nullify that principle.
What many here are doing is rejecting the principle because they hate the perversion, (rightly so.)
Because some men have perverted the principle, does not mean that the principle should be rejected.
Read deuteronomy 14. The tithes was grain and animal, NOT money. They would bring it Not to the temple but to a stored house for the levites because they couldn't work and for the poor. As for Abraham, hee have a tenth of the plunder not his. And actually he gave the whole thing back! So why not day bring your entire check to the church then? How comes nowhere in the new testament Paul ever talked about the tithe? The tithe is compulsory and Paul said let every man give freely, not compulsory. as for Jesus talking about the tithe, you notice he said cumin and spices? Der, cause it wasn't money!! And he had not yet died and brought into effect the new covenant!! everywhere in the bible where I see people financially blessed God did it because he wanted to, not because they "sowed" for it. So those poor Christians that Paul was collecting money for were they put because they didn't "follow the principle"? As for me, I'll keep my righteousness by faith, you all can keep your principle. Why is it everyone needs to be rich? Why can't we live our lives like Jesus says liked the birds who neither "reap not sow" but depend on God to feed them. No we skillfully sidestep the word of God because we don't want to rely on God. Self righteous is what it is!! Let me ask you this. Did God demand some principle when he sent Jesus to save us? He said if he didn't wtold his son, How can he not with him ... here's the kicker..... FREELY give us ALL THINGS! ! All this is works!! And really it's deny the finality and totality of the saving power of tbd blood of Jesus! !
DeleteHow can these men pretend to know the mind of the Lord? They are mere men. Most don't even know what their wives are thinking. The question is asked in the Bible; "Who knows the mind of the Lord"? How can they dare put forth the idea that if one doesn't tithe then one will be punished. This is NOT Biblical!!!! You can tell what is of foremost importance to them by what the preach the most. Is it Salvation through Jesus Christ, or is it about money over and over and over? WD in your blog., you brought up the point, that had dawned on me previously. If so much depends on money, then what does that mean to a new convert? If a new convert is told that Jesus Christ Saves a person through His shed Blood and all man must do to be Saved is to Believe on the Lord and accept His shed Blood as payment for his (man's) sin and is Saved, which I totally believe!!!! Then isn't it confusing to put so much emphasis on the filthy lucre (money). They are constantly bombarded with "If you don't tithe, then all of the afore mentioned plagues will come down on your head..etc., etc".
ReplyDeleteSo many preachers "cheapen" the gospel by going in this direction. And I believe they will answer for it on Judgement Day. Yes, at the Judgement Seat of Christ, if they are Saved.
These men do not seem to have the love of god in then. They act as if they are on a political campaign for fascism, which is a authoritarian nationalist political ideology. A national church with kick backed by uncle sam. By the way mackster wants a privet plane just like the others.
ReplyDeleteHere is a very reasoned response to the charlatans promoting this heresy, in this case Creflo Dollar who has taken it to a whole 'nutha level with his assertion that non-tithers should be lined up and shot. Was he kidding? You decide. Dollar, who lives up to his unique name, calls non-tithers robbers and kleptomaniacs in Part 3a. Hmmm....
ReplyDeleteFour-part series that is about 35 minutes but IMO worth the listen.
Creflo Dollar's Tithing Manipulation, Part 1
Creflo Dollar's Tithing Manipulation, Part 2
Creflo Dollar's Tithing Manipulation, Part 3a
Creflo Dollar's Tithing Manipulation, Part 3b
Ed Young about to have "fellowship" with the IRS
ReplyDeleteThey are right and that is why you are popping those Tums....you got Holy Ghost Heartburn!
ReplyDeleteThis is so hard for me to understand. I admit that i am an old pastor (48) yrs but could never bye into tithe or be cursed issue. I think Paul gave us tghe formula under grace. "God Loves a cheerful giver. I tell my members if they can't happily support their church keep the money in their pocket. The Lord has blessed me to be able to build a number of church facilities and needs have always been met. God didn't call me to be a marketing expert but an humble pastor serving God's family.
ReplyDeleteThese guys are simply performers. How are they different from any motivational speaker? They are putting on a show, and people get to anticipate what dramatic thing they will do or say each Sunday morning.
ReplyDeleteIf that is what people want and are willing to pay for...
And in the comments from the video someone posted in these comments-you'll notice that some members are calling him a "man of God" and defending him. Some will defend him no matter what he does, how much money he makes, or how he makes it.
The thing that gets under my skin is that part of his income is not counted as income for tax purposes because he is a pastor. But I guess lots of CEO's of big businesses get tax breaks, so why not him?
The Bible, God, Jesus, religion is simply his vehicle for his MLM business.
I can see where sincere Christians would be upset and disturbed by their faith being used in this manner.
Because some men have perverted the principle, does not mean that the principle should be rejected.
ReplyDeleteNovember 5, 2010 10:00 AM
___________________________________
TRUE. However, tithing is not, and never has been, a NT or OT principle. Please show me where, in either, OT or NT, that giving 10% of one's wages to a local church budget is taught or modeled.
Tithing is not a principle. It is a heretical teaching used to exploit the trusting sheep that have no shepherd. Generous giving..no problem. Give until it hurts to wherever you want to give to. God loves a cheerful giver. But please, don't think for a moment that tithing is NT or OT principle for Christians to follow.
I feel true sorrow for all those souls that will perish because when someone invited them to hear the gospel simply said "all that church wants is my money." I used to think they were wrong. Now, sadly, I have to agree with them that they are right. And the preacher will be sure to tell them so if they visit.
ReplyDeleteSad.
"I don't think in a serious conversation with anyone here he would demand you believe the same way but I don't think he would back down because of unnecessary comments."
ReplyDeleteMy apologies, I should have said:
He would not demand...
"No one in the church I attend is getting rich of our tithes and offerings."
ReplyDeleteHow do you know? Does he list his salary and benefits? I doubt it.
And since Ed and Mac and Gaines are getting rich from the tithe, is that wrong? Why or why not?
"The pastor believes, and rightly so, that tithing is still applicable today."
That's because he is repeating bad information that he was taught in seminary like most Baptist pastors. He didn't come to that conclusion from studying scripture in context. It's a tradition with no Biblical support. Similar to the Church of Christ not believing in instruments in the church service.
The first century Christians had it right. They didn't pay a tithe.
"I don't think in a serious conversation with anyone here he would demand you believe the same way but I don't think he would back down because of unnecessary comments."
Demanding someone believe something is of no profit. You have to be able to prove your case from scripture. That's a no-win situation when it comes to the OT tithe.
"He is not a mega church pastor but he is a biblicist. Unlike I have been but am working to change (after I had a great talk with him), he would not stoop to name calling and personal attacks."
ReplyDeleteOops sounds like we are back into man-worshiping mode again. Maybe after you have your great talk, you will be inspired to stop calling people names on this blog and learn how to interpret scripture correctly.
"I am working on not slinging mud with anyone on this topic. A struggle for freedom."
While you are working on that could you also work on not thinking of this as a game?
Interpreting the Bible correctly is serious business.
If you do actually meet with your pastor on this subject, here are some questions that you might want to ask him. I would love to hear his responses on this blog.
ReplyDelete1) Why was the tithe always paid in food in the OT - Never money? (in one case they were allowed to turn their food into cash if they had to travel a long way and later turn it back into food). When did the tithe go from food in the OT to cash in the NT?
2) Why did the OT Israelites pay 3 tithes (levites, poor, festivals) and we are only responsible for one. When did it change from 3 tithes in the OT to one in the NT? When were the other 2 abolished?
3) Where is it stated in the NT that 10% of your food in the OT is equal to 10% of your check in the NT and how is a Leviical priest (who isn't allowed to own anything) equal to a full-time pastor at a local church?
4) Where is the storehouse today? In the OT there was a literal storehouse that stored the food and livestock that was given to the temple?
5) When did the temple in the OT become the local church in the NT. For the first 3 centuries of the Christian church there were no church buildings or head pastors. They met in houses and everyone participated equally.
6) Why did the Christian church not pay tithes in the first 700 years of its existence. Wouldn't the first century church have had a clear understanding of what God required in giving?
7) Of all the times (dozens) that giving is mentioned in the NT, why isn't 10% ever mentioned other than when he is talking to hypocritical OT pharisees living under the law? Of course if Jesus would have told them not to tithe that would have been analogous to telling them not to pay their taxes.
8) 10% seems way too easy for rich people and way too hard for poor people. In the OT the tithes went to help those who owned nothing and to the poor and widows - not salaries and buildings. Today the poor are expected to give 10% to people who sometimes fly in private jets.
9) Please harmonize the three OT tithes with 2 Corinthians 9: 7.
10) When did the Christian church begin paying tithes? You will need to do some studying of church history on this one. And why did it begin at that time and what was it modeled on?
One additional thought, it amazes me that almost every denomination teaches the tithe. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopals, Catholics, etc. Even the cults like Mormans and JWs.
I don't think you can find those groups agreeing on anything else, but they all teach the tithe.
Is that because scripture teaches it or because the leaders are drawing their salary from it?
If you do actually meet with your pastor on this subject, here are some questions that you might want to ask him. I would love to hear his responses on this blog.
ReplyDelete1) Why was the tithe always paid in food in the OT - Never money? (in one case they were allowed to turn their food into cash if they had to travel a long way and later turn it back into food). When did the tithe go from food in the OT to cash in the NT?
2) Why did the OT Israelites pay 3 tithes (levites, poor, festivals) and we are only responsible for one. When did it change from 3 tithes in the OT to one in the NT? When were the other 2 abolished?
3) Where is it stated in the NT that 10% of your food in the OT is equal to 10% of your check in the NT and how is a Leviical priest (who isn't allowed to own anything) equal to a full-time pastor at a local church?
4) Where is the storehouse today? In the OT there was a literal storehouse that stored the food and livestock that was given to the temple?
5) When did the temple in the OT become the local church in the NT. For the first 3 centuries of the Christian church there were no church buildings or head pastors. They met in houses and everyone participated equally.
6) Why did the Christian church not pay tithes in the first 700 years of its existence. Wouldn't the first century church have had a clear understanding of what God required in giving?
ReplyDelete7) Of all the times (dozens) that giving is mentioned in the NT, why isn't 10% ever mentioned other than when he is talking to hypocritical OT pharisees living under the law? Of course if Jesus would have told them not to tithe that would have been analogous to telling them not to pay their taxes.
8) 10% seems way too easy for rich people and way too hard for poor people. In the OT the tithes went to help those who owned nothing and to the poor and widows - not salaries and buildings. Today the poor are expected to give 10% to people who sometimes fly in private jets.
9) Please harmonize the three OT tithes with 2 Corinthians 9: 7.
10) When did the Christian church begin paying tithes? You will need to do some studying of church history on this one. And why did it begin at that time and what was it modeled on?
One additional thought, it amazes me that almost every denomination teaches the tithe. Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopals, Catholics, etc. Even the cults like Mormans and JWs.
I don't think you can find those groups agreeing on anything else, but they all teach the tithe.
Is that because scripture teaches it or because the leaders are drawing their salary from it?
To ANON November 5, 2010 2:07 PM
ReplyDeleteYou say this......
"I tell my members if they can't happily support their church keep the money in their pocket."
My question is, were you trying to send the members on a guilt trip? That reverse psychology junk is what they teach in Seminaries ya know.
I think you, and other Pastors, do say this as a way to make the congregation feel "guilty"....
I plugged my ears from hearing this kind of human manipulation years ago.
Pass the Plate please......
money-changers
ReplyDeleteChrist will deal with them
"Dollar, who lives up to his unique name, calls non-tithers robbers and kleptomaniacs"
ReplyDeleteHow is this different from Gaines declaring that folks are driving around in stolen cars when they don't "tithe"?
"Tithing through the church is a Biblical principle that transcends the law.
ReplyDeleteRightly teaching the tithe has nothing to do with being "under the law."
That being said, Christians should tithe, just as Christians should pray, just as Christians should read their Bible etc."
Where do you find a Levite Priest to give it to?
Anonymous November 5, 2010 10:00 AM said...
ReplyDeleteTithing through the church is a Biblical principle that transcends the law.
Rightly teaching the tithe has nothing to do with being "under the law."
That position is unsupportable biblically. I've heard it often, and I guess most folks just believe it because they hear it from preachers often, too. I wish people would take the 15 or 20 minutes it takes to read the relevant passages, in context, and the 10 minutes or so it takes to think it through for themselves. Or, if you just have to go by what a preacher says, read or listen to MacArthur or visit Russ Kelly's website.
If God intended a man to have a ministry He would supply him with the means to support it, rather than continually fleecing the flock.
ReplyDeleteMy license plate frame: There Are No Rich Preachers in Heaven
"Tithing through the church is a Biblical principle that transcends the law.
ReplyDeleteRightly teaching the tithe has nothing to do with being "under the law."
That being said, Christians should tithe, just as Christians should pray, just as Christians should read their Bible etc."
Where do you find a Levite Priest to give it to?
We are not saying a god fearing pastor should go hungry. We are looking at the abuses when sin enters in. And clearly, FBCJ Pastor Mac Brunson is not going hungry. It is true sin envades every one. Any reasonable man or woman will be able to see when a pastor is trying to fit an agenda in to his teaching other wise that person is only there for the enjoyment. However, you soune like someone with a good heart.
Waiting for the sermon when Mac takes a "random sample" of tithing records and uses it to make his point.
ReplyDeleteMac: Here is Tither #1. They have missed a week, this week is less than the others. I believe God will be punishing this person.
Here is Tither #2. They are consistently tithing and I believe God is rewarding them.
You get the picture.
Seriously, Mac. You might be a little more convincing without your big gold watch, cuff links, and expensive suit.
"Dollar, who lives up to his unique name, calls non-tithers robbers and kleptomaniacs"
ReplyDeleteHow is this different from Gaines declaring that folks are driving around in stolen cars when they don't "tithe"?
Ummm... I don't think it is! Creflo Dollar and Dr. Financial Gaines.
"Tithing through the church is a Biblical principle that transcends the law.
ReplyDeleteRightly teaching the tithe has nothing to do with being "under the law."
That being said, Christians should tithe, just as Christians should pray, just as Christians should read their Bible etc."
Where do you find a Levite Priest to give it to?
We are not saying a god fearing pastor should go hungry. We are looking at the abuses when sin enters in. And clearly, FBCJ Pastor Mac Brunson is not going hungry. It is true sin envades every one. Any reasonable man or woman will be able to see when a pastor is trying to fit an agenda in to his teaching other wise that person is only there for the enjoyment. However, you soune like someone with a good heart.
November 5, 2010 8:10 PM
No, you missed my point. If you believe in a "tithe", then you must find a Levite Priest to give it to.
Do you think the title, "pastor" maps to the Levite Priests of the OT?
"That position is unsupportable biblically. I've heard it often, and I guess most folks just believe it because they hear it from preachers often, too. I wish people would take the 15 or 20 minutes it takes to read the relevant passages, in context, and the 10 minutes or so it takes to think it through for themselves. Or, if you just have to go by what a preacher says, read or listen to MacArthur or visit Russ Kelly's website"
ReplyDeleteThis is so true! And it makes me so very sad because there was a time when folks were not allowed to read the Bible for themselves. It is called the Dark Ages for a reason. They had to have priests tell them what it said. And the majority were illiterate anyway.
So, what is the excuse today to allow someone else to tell them what the Bible says and means?
The Holy Spirit is the BEST Teacher, as Jesus said.
Please everyone, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to remove your man made filters and read the Word. There are tons of resources at your fingertips to check the Greek or Hebrew if something is confusing or seems to contradict.
Off Topic: I just ran across my company's guidelines on employee gifts and couldn't help but think of Mac and Debbie's land gift from J.D. Collins just two weeks after taking the job.
ReplyDelete"Under no circumstances may gifts of money be accepted. Associates may not solicit nonmonetary gifts, gratuities or any other personal benefit or favor from vendors, suppliers or customers. Unsolicited, non-monetary, infrequent business courtesies and gifts from a business firm or individual doing or seeking to do business with [company name] can be accepted only if primarily of an advertising or promotional nature. Such gifts and/or courtesies may include those which a vendor or supplier provides to a wide spectrum of existing and potential customers and are valued at less than $50. Gifts or entertainment valued at more than $50 are considered inappropriate, especially when you have direct control over the outside relationship with [company name]"
Maybe FBC JAX has such a policy. If so, it must apply to everyone but "God's man." And it does seem the land gift was "primarily of an advertising or promotional nature."
Mac would be more convincing if he actually gave 1 penny, net, to the church. Let's see: we KNOW he rec'd a GIFT of a $307,000 piece of land. So IF he makes $300,000 total compensation, it will take him over 10 years of faithful tithing before he even gives back one cent more than he took in the month he arrived. Not actually "giving" anything in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteFrom looking at the weight problem most of these preachers have...I don't think any of them are starving!
ReplyDeleteI've watched parts 1 & 2 of the Creflo Dollar videos. Very interesting-thanks for posting them.
ReplyDeleteMy husband brought up about the couple in the NT that got struck dead re giving. Were they struck down because of not giving enough or because of saying they gave all when they didn't?
Anyway, couldn't preachers use them as an example in order to cause fear in the congregation?
Why should one be required to tithe money to conventions and associations? Most of us don't know, and will never meet these people. We don't get accounting from them either. No oversight at all. What do they do, besides live off the church tithes? I never give money to those I don't know. The tithe is NOT a bill..required to be paid. In the OT the "first fruits" were given to support the Levite priest (Leviticus 7:31) (priest portion, burned it on the alter as a sacrifice,or gave it to the poor). This was their calling...to attend to the temple. I don't recall any mention of the priests being millionaires, living high lifestyles, driving the latest model chariot. The point being they were servants of God, they were not there to be served, like these men demanding money today to support their families rich lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteThey ever think that one reason people arn't giving today is because they see these guys and their families using the church to get rich. That's it in a nutshell. So really, the preachers are stumbling blocks to the cause of Christ. Few take the preachers seriously about anything anymore. Too much is seen and known about their lifestyle and "spoiled brat" self centered personalities You have heard that old saying; "I wouldn't believe him in church". Well that about sums it up. Blame yourselves fellas. You chased the money until it caught you!!!
In previous posts Deuteronomy 21:18 has been brought up to seek the approval by those who believe the tithe is still in effect.
ReplyDeleteI have been going over this passage and a few things stand out.
1 - The "son" was not a child in the house but a grown person.
2 - The son was not listening to godly instruction of the parents.
3 - The son was rebellious and a drunkard. Though the crime of the rebellion is not listed it is most likely that he was a law breaker of the laws of the land and of the laws of God. Let's use for an example that this "son" was a pedophile or a murderer. If the parents found out, what should be their recourse. I would turn my "son over to the authorities (a viable meaning for elders here).
4 - The parents did not stone their son,the crimes were judged by three judges (elders) and if the "son" was found guilty, the death penalty would be given. - God is pro death penalty.
I would agree with Deuteronomy 21:18, if my son was a criminal I would, before God, be accountable before God and man to turn him in. The courts then would be the decider of his fate, not me.
This passage can not be tied to the tithe as a passage to refute the tithe.
"IF he makes $300,000 total compensation, it will take him over 10 years of faithful tithing before he even gives back one cent more than he took in the month he arrived. Not actually "giving" anything in my opinion."
ReplyDeleteIsn't that true of all who tithe/ for those who don't how much longer does it take them to give what they earn in a year.
I know the argument will be, he is paid out of the tithe, therefore...
Who made the decision for FBCJax to pay their preachers? I don't think Mac made it.
" The son was rebellious and a drunkard. Though the crime of the rebellion is not listed it is most likely that he was a law breaker of the laws of the land and of the laws of God."
ReplyDeleteBen, you still do not get it. It was a THEOCRACY. There was no difference between laws of the land and laws of God. They were one and the same.
We are NOT in a Theocracy any longer. We must be salt and light among the pagans. If your adult son was a pedophile he would be turned over to the civil authorities.
In fact, your suggestion above is a HUGE problem within the SBC of the church thinking they are the "law" and dealing with perverts in house instead of calling upon the civil authorities. Lots of bad guys go free to molest others because of this wrong thinking.
That is why your thinking is so very dangerous.
"My husband brought up about the couple in the NT that got struck dead re giving. Were they struck down because of not giving enough or because of saying they gave all when they didn't?"
ReplyDeleteTheir being struck dead had nothing to with money at all, as Peter says in the passage, it was theirs to do what they wanted.
They were struck dead because they lied. (Note before they did this Barnabas sold his estate and gave all the profit to the members)
In fact, Peter says they lied to the Holy Spirit and to God. Which means it was not about lying to Peter. Interesting, huh?
BTW: This passage has interesting implications for comp doctrine. If Sapphira was submitting to her husband, why was she struck dead?
" So really, the preachers are stumbling blocks to the cause of Christ."
ReplyDeleteVery true. And the mega church pastors make it much harder for the pastors of small churches. Which is why I wonder more small church pastors do not rebuke their "peers"?
Plenty of rich people in this world never go to church or worse, never accept Christ. Plenty.
ReplyDeleteWealth is not based on what you give, or what you don't. There are people who are blessed with the ability to make lots of money, and people who are not blessed in that way.
Whether you are wealthy or not, you can give money to the church and feel joyful and fulfilled, or you can give to the church and not feel that way.
There is no formula. Giving is a personal matter between a person and God.
Which is why I wonder more small church pastors do not rebuke their "peers"?
ReplyDeleteI think you already know the answers to this. There are several. Most directly or indirectly involve money.
Also, "small church pastors" are just as insignificant to the mega boys as the average pew warmer. I don't appreciate being labeled "antinomian" by Les Puryear, but bless his heart, he's got a valid point about the "little churches" being the backbone of the SBC while the megachurches are the "face." I don't think he ever worded it that way, but that seemed to be his point.
ReplyDeleteI Cor 16:19. "The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord with the church that is in their house". Someone earlier spoke of buildings not being sacred. I would amen that. The church (born again believers) need to save their resources and go back to the standard set in the Bible...meet in houses. Its safer, less boring, and everyone has a voice not just the ones who desire all the attention. It might actually bring more people to the Lord since real Bible study would take place and not some words out of some other book or recent trip discussed.
ReplyDelete"Wealth is not based on what you give, or what you don't. There are people who are blessed with the ability to make lots of money, and people who are not blessed in that way."
ReplyDeleteIt is dangerous to think of wealth as a blessing in the New Covenant. It can be a curse. Just ask the rich young ruler who is now in hell. Too bad he was not born 1900 years later. He would be a perfect mega church elder.
"It is dangerous to think of wealth as a blessing in the New Covenant."
ReplyDeletePoint well taken; however, the commenter did not say "wealth" was a blessing, but that the ability to earn a lot of money was.
That IS a gift and it IS a blessing. Just like musical talent or athletic ability. And like those, it depends on how you use the gift as to whether or not it turns out to be a blessing in your life and the lives of others.
Also, "small church pastors" are just as insignificant to the mega boys as the average pew warmer.
ReplyDeleteThat's about it in a nutshell. As a small church pastor, the best I can do to rebuke those who are dishonoring the office is to preach and live the truth as best I can where I am. Brunson, Gaines, Mohler et al. don't take my calls, and even an effort at compromise about openness and transparency was mocked by the platform in Orlando. Generally the attitude is that if we knew what we were doing, we'd be in big churches, not out here in farm towns answering to the people we serve.
(Yes, answering to them, including that the monthly budget report discloses *all* financial compensation I get, benefits, conferences included. I also have to account for how my time is spent, and I have no argument that the church shouldn't receive that accounting. Ultimately, I answer to the Lord Jesus Christ, but I serve this church. If the two are at odds, I should leave the service of the church to follow Christ. Which I have done in a previous role, and left 'paid ministry' for 6 years.)
It's not about money, at least I don't think it is, though I have mixed motives at times, since I'm just a redeemed sinner like any other Believer. It's about striving to be faithful to what I believe God has called me to, and balancing a growing better understanding of what that is, what He wants, and how to help churches (and maybe someday, the whole denomination or a split thereof) take the steps to get there.
Keep in mind folks, a lot of you it took either a long time or a major crisis (such as a significant act of stupid that you witnessed) to open your eyes. Allow others the grace of time to grow and understand as well. We're working on it, but things shift slowly. Especially church traditions. It took about 100 years after Luther to shift from infant Baptism, and another 100 to get to the beginnings of "free churches" rather than state churches.
John H
We all know that churches in the Baptist Convention world are required to give to these conventions for the convention membership and having the "label" or Baptist name.
ReplyDeleteThis is simply untrue, like most of the vomit spewed on this blog. No one is required to do anything to carry the baptist name. Those nuts in Kansas prove that.
Because some men have perverted the basic principle does not nullify that principle.
ReplyDeleteAMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
How can these men pretend to know the mind of the Lord?
ReplyDeleteWe all can know the heart of God through His word.
"Brunson, Gaines, Mohler et al. don't take my calls, and even an effort at compromise about openness and transparency was mocked by the platform in Orlando. Generally the attitude is that if we knew what we were doing, we'd be in big churches, not out here in farm towns answering to the people we serve."
ReplyDeleteThis is very true. And I know it for a fact that mega church pastors don't take these calls. However, when out speaking they act like they are opposite of what they really are and people are fooled.
That is why when the naive come on here and talk about Matt 18, I have to chuckle. It is IMPOSSIBLE to practice Matt 18 with a mega church pastor. You cannot get near him long enough to even broach the subject. But these same mega church pastors will trot out Matt 18 and use it as a club knowing they are protected from it!
they tend to think that all small churches are dead but would never say that publicly. But just work for some of them for a while and you get to see the reality.
"Point well taken; however, the commenter did not say "wealth" was a blessing, but that the ability to earn a lot of money was"
ReplyDeleteSeriously? Like getting rich selling derivitives? Or junk bonds? How about opium? Oil?
You may want to rethink your doctrine on this. Are derivatives moral? Who says? A lot of folks got stinking rich from them and still do.
If the pathway to 'peace with God' is through these charlatans' bank accounts, I'm a monkey's uncle.
ReplyDeleteTithing is a command from God and I believe fully in supporting your church and church family. However, I would be very weary of giving to (or even being a member of) a church who's pastor is making millions in salary and benefits. Seems to me that salvation & a relationship with Jesus has taken a back seat to driving a Benz.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the honest God fearing man behind the pulpit is dwindling away and it saddens me.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteThere is discontinuity between the Old Covenant tithe and New Covenant giving. It is only proper hermeneutics to conclude that.
I find myself growing increasingly cynical over the issue. These "pastors"( not committing a genetic fallacy as I know the belief per se does not indict one as a hireling. There are some good men who have preached the tithe.) who take advantage of biblically naive people ....... pontificating and declaring cursing and blessing--blaspheme. This is not a small matter. However, people that buy into the prosperity nonsense are simply idolaters--no different than much of humanity, (although idolatry under the guise of Christianity is very sinister and insidious. Eternally deadly.) Scripture warns us about the sinful desire for "things."
Our bubble is soon to burst in the USA, and the whole infrastructure of American "christianity" will be found to have been built on the shifting sand. Many people, who used GOD as a means of gain and a gimmick, will sink with that system, and the filthy lucre that they so love.
Thank the LORD GOD that there will always be a remant not bowing the knee to the baal's of the evil world system.
Jonathan
11:40 - checked my doctrine and it's all good, thanks so much for the concern! Or warning. Whatever that was.
ReplyDeleteTalents and abilties are gifts.
Using them immorally and illegally is wrong. Those works will be judged. Basic stuff.
I think you need to read the post again, and the original at 1:56 on 11/6. Carefully this time.
Wow, a staunch DEFENSE of Ed Young's asking for member's account number.
ReplyDeletehttp://bit.ly/9Bo316
Has this guy looked at the entire Ed Young sermon?
This is what amazes me, everyone is hung up on the account number video, but the absolute worst part of the message is the nonsensical preaching about tithing that occured right BEFORE he asked for the account numbers.
CBS Sunday Morning:
ReplyDeleteTo Tithe or Not to Tithe?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/01/sunday/main3896728.shtml
Here's the video:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=3897558n&tag=related;photovideo
11:40 - checked my doctrine and it's all good, thanks so much for the concern! Or warning. Whatever that was.
ReplyDeleteTalents and abilties are gifts.
Using them immorally and illegally is wrong. Those works will be judged. Basic stuff.
I think you need to read the post again, and the original at 1:56 on 11/6. Carefully this time.
November 8, 2010 7:25 AM
Exactly what "parable" are you reading to come to your conclusion that making money is a gift from God? If it is, then George Soros has a gift from God that a committed believer does not have?
You aren't confused about the talents parable, are you?
Can you show me in the NC, outside the theocracy of Israel, where it is taught that making money is a gift from God?
Thanks. I want to study up.
7:25 So you are saying that gifts and talents are reserved only for "committed believers?"
ReplyDeleteThat may be desirable, but it certainly is not reality.
If a person - good or evil - has a gift, an innate ability to do something well, where did that gift come from if God didn't give it to them? He created every human being didn't He?
God gives gifts to the just and the unjust. Some use their talents for good and some for evil. Look at all the evil kings in the Bible. They were wealthy and lived oppulently. Lazarus was a poor, but "committed believer." He was apparently not chosen to be a king or live a life of luxury on this earth. He did have gifts, though.
How can any person have a talent or an ability that their Creator did not give them?
I believe that the kind of business sense that translates into being able to create wealth is a gift, a special talent. Just like being smart in math or science and becoming a doctor, or athletic ability, or musical talent, or being a great writer or speaker. Believers AND unbelievers may possess these talents. But they ALL come from God.
Where else would they come from? Luck?
Don't confuse what people DO with their gifts with the fact that they were GIVEN abilities to do certain things. This is really not that complicated.
How to post a link in a comment
ReplyDeleteEd Young defender
ReplyDeleteCBS story
CBS video
"However, when out speaking they act like they are opposite of what they really are and people are fooled."
ReplyDeleteIsn'there a name for that?
"If a person - good or evil - has a gift, an innate ability to do something well, where did that gift come from if God didn't give it to them? He created every human being didn't He? "
ReplyDeleteAnd here I thought we were born in corrupted bodies with a sin nature. I also missed the part where Satan is no longer roaming the earth.
What a gift from God to be able to trade junk bonds and make millions!
Boy I'm glad I was secure in my faith and theology before happening on this thread!
ReplyDeleteNo wonder I left the church.
Boy I'm glad I was secure in my faith and theology before happening on this thread!
ReplyDeleteNo wonder I left the church.
November 10, 2010 8:42 AM
Leaving a "building" is not the same as leaving the "church" (ekklesia)