In the three years plus we've discussed tithing on this blog, we've looked at a number of ridiculous, sometimes even abusive arguments used by mega church pastors to convince their congregations that they must fork over 10% of their gross income to their pastor's church to stay in good graces with God.But Mac Brunson recently has put forth one of the wackiest, over-the-top arguments I've ever heard on tithing: that because ancient pagans supposedly "tithed" to their phoney-baloney gods, that we as Christians today should be quite happy to practice the same ritual.
Yes, according to Mac because the Mesopotamians apparently tithed to "Marduke the Moon God" 7000 years ago, and becauses hieroglypics depict Ramses tithing to Ra (did he write a check or put cash in the offering plate?) Christians should do nothing less than divide our weekly gross income by 10, and fork that over to the pastor's church. This argument really should be a Saturday Night Live skit making fun of mega church pastors - not seriously put forth from the pulpit of a Baptist church.
Below you can see and hear it yourself, courtesy of Kevin Oliver, a Christian discernment video blogger who was appalled when he heard Mac Brunson use the pagan practice of tithing to rip into Christians who dare to debate the issue of tithing. Watch Kevin's video and commentary:
Even Chris Rosebrough of the Pirate Christian Network got word of this Brunson sermon, and did a segment on his radio show recently entitled "The Worst Reason Ever Given by a Pastor as to Why You Should Tithe" where he spent 15 minutes analyzing the above clip and pointing out the logical and scriptural fallacies of Brunson's argument (click here if you want to hear Rosebrough's analysis, fast forwarding to the 22:00 minute mark).
As you see in the video, Brunson gets all worked up explaining how ancient civilizations tithed to their "gods", including the "Mesopotameians tithing to Marduke the Moon God." and thus it seems Brunson believes that God has placed "tithing" as a basic truth in the heart of man.
Several things about this argument pointing to tithing practices of pagan religions:
- David Croteau in his book "You Mean I Don't Have to Tithe: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving", references author Henry Landsdell's work that discusses how ancient cultures exhibited some form of giving increases to their gods. But Croteau points out: "...how they gave differed in the amount, the voluntary nature, and the timing. There certainly was not a uniform 10% of increase prescribed across the board." Crouteau goes on to point out that in Arabia tithes were paid on frankincense, but if the ground had been watered by Baal (as in rain) a double tithe was due. So it certainly is quite a stretch to compare these pagan tithes to even Old Testament tithing, and just completely absurd to compare it to believers under the new covenant who are to give joyfully, out of their blessings, and without compulsion.
- I would take exception to Brunson's opening statement in his diatribe: "Its amazing how the human heart knows that when you come before God, I'm supposed to bring something to him." Absurd. God planted in the human heart the knowledge that we are to bring something to God when we come before him? Where does he come up with this? I thought that under the new convenant we have finally understood that God doesn't want us to bring something to him, because we have nothing he wants. He had to redeem us, we couldn't redeem ourselves. Isn't the essence of false religion (i.e. paganism!) man's attempt to reach God by "bringing something to him"? And we're now to believe that God put that in the human heart, and thus Christians are supposed to bring God the tithe because of this? Lord, I hope they are not teaching this in seminaries!
So the next time you are considering what to give to the Lord, stop and think of what our pagan brethren did.
They tithed to Marduke and Asar and Ra, and so should you! You didn't know it? You know it now.
WD, I have been waiting for you to write this post. When I first saw the video via Kevin Oliver's You Tube site, I was flabbergasted. In some ways the money quote by Mac Brunson, ("Its amazing how the human heart knows that when you come before God, I'm supposed to bring something to him.") explains succinctly Mac's beating of the sheep via tithing sermons.
ReplyDeleteI for one am glad I stopped listening to Mac Brunson. He is a gifted speaker, but he is not honest in his sermons. I had a distinct impression he was manipulating me to do what he wanted in his sermons. That is scary.
Since the OT Israelites gave almost 25% of their crops and livestock, I'm not seeing how this is the same.
ReplyDeleteDoes this extend to other pagan practices? Did God plant the idea of reincarnation in the human heart?
ReplyDeleteJust look at the extremes that this mega-pastor is forced to go in order to try to get people to foot the bill for his inflated salary.
ReplyDeletePagan traditions, cherry picking OT commands (ignoring that they paid 3 tithes), magically converting food into cash.
Anything but 2 Corinthians 9: 7
by using Mac's own analogy/logic, the pagans also sacrificed their children to their "god" too - does that mean we should be doing that as well? Mac? What scary, devilish "logic" that is! Mac seems to find reason after reason to keep his gravy train running. The Bible makes crystal clear that there is nothing we have that God wants - just ourselves. Yet Mac is saying the human heart just "knows" we're supposed to bring something to God. Anyone who can't see the blatant false teaching in that idea better get out their Bible and start studying, before any more damage is done to your spiritual life. The only human heart that "knows" this is an unsaved one.
ReplyDeleteD
Why pay any attention to the Bible when you have all of this man made wisdom and history being taught to you????!!!!
ReplyDeleteInflation is getting worse and so is the demand for more money from the sheep.
Those same pagans (1) worshipped idols, (2) offered child sacrifices, (3) sent their children to temple prostitutes for their first sex and (4) worshipped the planets and stars.
ReplyDeletePrior to my conversion to Christianity I never tithed to anything. Neither did my parents, grandparents, great grandparents for hundreds of years. Therefore, as a former pagan I and my ancestors failed to tithe to which I am most proud. Since I studied the Bible and learned the tithe belongs only to the Jewish nation it makes me realize just how smart my family and I were/am. Did any of you other pagans ever tithe prior to becoming a Christian? I didn't think so either.
ReplyDeleteHey I thought everything we brought was nothing but filthy rags.
ReplyDeleteI thought nothing in my hands I bring but simply to the cross I cling.
Sheessh...he sure is snarky.
What a beatdown!!!
ReplyDeleteHeard this every Sunday in Dallas until I finally couldn't take it anymore and walked out for good. I was pretty messed up in the head and the emotions after only a year and a half of this hogwash.
When giving, think of "what you do for the least of these." Your church is a giant tax-free business, and the pastor has tons of money already.
ReplyDeleteGive your money to someone who truly NEEDS it.
Why give to someone who directly benefits from putting you on a guilt trip? The pastor is not God. The church is not God. According to the Bible, "God" would be "the least of these." Right? Why would God want you to give to the rich? Give to the poor instead.
Mac is off the deep end. Are the folks at FBCJax so spiritually ignorant they actually buy this? They are the ones I am concerned about. How can so many people in one place be so deceived that this is biblical truth? Because it really is that bad out there.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of what Amos said:
11 “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign LORD,
“when I will send a famine through the land—
not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD.
12 People will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east,
searching for the word of the LORD,
but they will not find it.
This post reminds me of what Paul was trying to tell the church in Corinth in 2 Corinthians 3. Please read it everyone.
ReplyDeleteNote what happens when we try to impose OT law today on believers:
For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord[e] is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
If people would turn to Christ only, they would not be deceived with this sort of teaching from Mac.
Christians do not compete with Pagans (unbelievers) to please God. Does anyone realize this is the underlying message Mac is preaching?
There is a veil over the truth at FBCJax.
I guess shame is being added guilt now, as in even the pagans brought the tithe.
ReplyDeleteMaybe if the harder he berates people on giving, the less people gave, he'd have to try a different whip.
I agree with Thy Peace. The message is clear: he believes that when you come to God, you have to bring God something, as in "money", that though this is a truth God puts in the heart of all mankind. Furthermore, as his teaching goes, to bring God something, the tithe, you must bring it in the form of cash, check, money order, or credit card, and furthermore, it must be brought to the 501(c)3 religious organization to which you belong.
ReplyDeleteThis is what Ed Young taught last year when he asked for his members' checking account info. He actually mocked his congregation, as though they are wasting God's time and the preacher's time, by coming to God empty handed and expecting a blessing. He laughed and scoffed at such a thought of coming to God empty handed.
Sad.
I am ashamed of churchianity, absolutely ashamed. It makes witnessing almost impossible because of how badly these people have mangled the gospel and made it ugly and poisonous. I just tell people now that I follow Jesus.
ReplyDeleteIndeed this is sad message - Mac's feeling his oats, big conference coming up with his SBC cheerleaders coming to feed his ego - following that his agenda is his annual israel vacation trip (plus Rome).
ReplyDeleteNo shame to this preacher - he's just getting bolder & bolder on the pulpit, strutting & wiping his sweat while brow beating his flock it is their spiritual obligation to open their wallets.
Money, money, money is the theme song these days at FBCJ.
I am ashamed of churchianity, absolutely ashamed. It makes witnessing almost impossible because of how badly these people have mangled the gospel and made it ugly and poisonous. I just tell people now that I follow Jesus.
ReplyDeleteJanuary 22, 2011 10:27 AM
Me too, Paula. I now distance myself from the cultural church. It is not the true ecclesia.
But have you noticed that now "witnessing" is really more about inviting people to these churches? Most professing believers actually think that inviting people to church is the same as witnessing.
The marketing folks have done a great job with this illusion.
Does any one (preachers) preach the gospel any more? You know ..."Jesus is the Savior who died on the Cross in order to pay the price for man's sin". To listen to these money centered preachers one would think Jesus was head of the world bank and we had better pay up. My Jesus paid the price to save my soul, and I didn't have to do anything but believe on Him and that He is coming again. "Even so come quickly Lord Jesus".
ReplyDeleteSo what happened to the front seats in the church? Did they take take them out in order to put in a "strutting stage"? I know I am off topic...I just was curious.
ReplyDeleteDue to inflation, shouldn't people be tithing more than 10%? You know... the cost of tithing index!
ReplyDeleteBut have you noticed that now "witnessing" is really more about inviting people to these churches? Most professing believers actually think that inviting people to church is the same as witnessing.
ReplyDeleteYep. Been that way for a long, long time. And the methods of that 'witnessing' involved entertainment's lure, one way or another.
As a former church musician from a long line of them, we all knew what we'd never say out loud: we were performers, being judged on how well we sang or played. And if we were good at it, people would come to hear us. That means bodies in the pews, money in the plate, and status in the community. Same for skilled orators ("preachers"); perform well, enthrall the audience, and get a following. Large church or small, they only differ in degree.
This was nothing more and nothing less than a shameless exploitation of people in the name of God for money!!!
ReplyDeleteMac has become so desperate for money that he will stoop to any means necessary to manipulate the people in to giving it[1Tim.6:5,10]!!!
Mac is a fulfillment of 2Tim.3:13.
Right before our very eyes we see this man get "worse and worse" in his methodology.
The contents of his heart are revealed for all to see.
Jesus again stated that "out of the treasures of ones hearts,the mouth speaks".
This is a foundational truth that can't and should be ignored.
It is not that Mac is just mistakenly ignorant,but rather,this what's in the man!!!
Arguing that Christians should do something because pagans did it? Really.
ReplyDeletePagans did (and still do) lots of things. So what?
Isn't this perilously close to the reverse of "well, if your friends jumped off a cliff would you jump off a cliff?" Apparently - YES!
Using the intensity of pagan devotion to show how we can fall short can be a good illustration to spur on devotion.
But it only goes so far, and has to be used with care.
Louis
Btw, I helped found a church 18 years ago, and still go there.
ReplyDeleteWe have been at it for 18 years. We have had a property acquisition and 2 building campaigns.
My pastor, to my recollection, has never preached on Tithing or given a tithing sermon.
When the text mentions giving, it is discussed, but we have never had a tithing sermon or emphasis.
It really is surprising to see how much this is talked about at this church.
Louis
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGod doesn't need our money!!!! MAC DOES!!!!
ReplyDeleteI've been piecing together a book on tithing, and have almost a complete chapter dedicated to this mentality. I will post 2 paragraphs below to get you an idea of how i address this
ReplyDelete"We say that our God is alive, but we give to him in the same manner as pagans do. Any pagan can give a tithe to his god; and any religion can develop monotonous rules that promote consistent giving. But Christianity is different. We have a relationship with a living God. We also claim to have communication with our God; but we continue tithing as if we do not know how to talk to God in regards to giving. We’re just like robots that do as their told. We might as well say that we believe our God is a stone statue just like other god’s that can‘t communicate.
Stone statues don’t communicate with their worshippers, nor do the stone statues tell them what to bring to the altar. Every religion develops their own way of pleasing their god’s, and Christianity follows suit in the same manner with our type of giving. We have the opportunity to be led by the Spirit, but instead we want to be led in the same way that pagan’s are led. We have the opportunity to hear what our God’s Spirit is internally convicting us to give, but instead we’ve developed the deaf ears of pagans, and replaced our God with stone lips that do not speak personal instructions."
- jared
The comments thus far are spot on. This sermon is indicative of some deep problems in FBCJax and the rest of this demoninaiton.
ReplyDeleteThese critques seem to be further validated by the lack of Mac-Defenders rising to give chorus to his greatness, his annointed-ness, his numbers-ness, etc. Exclamation points, all caps, etc. etc.
How could anyone, with any small amount of discernment defend this guilt tripping and manipulating guy.
I too feel sorrow and concern for the congregation at FBCJAX. I had ol' Mac for pastor here in Dallas, and seen similar manipulation techniques when everyone had to bring a committment envelope up to the front of auditorium.
Not me, I didn't buy the junk he was selling and sat there all alone while the lines formed.
Like others here, what happend to the blood, the cross, the grace that is always amazing? Isn't it enough the HE died? Must we be comapred and shamed against some wretched pagan practice?
Pagans are damned, what do they have to do with the redeemed? We already talk and act like pagans, we have their music in the churches. They call it contemporary music, with the heavy beat and shallow lyrics.
Mac, you need to repent of this dumb and wicked thing. You are being held to a higher standard and you know this is a scriptural mandate on teachers.
Stop it now and confess this error. Get right with God and the flock.
Mac, once again, I adjure you to repent of all this nonsense and to do so now. Return to the great grace that saves and changes people for the amazing glory of God.
It's HIS work, not yours. You just need to preach HIS word and let MIM do the rest so that HE gets all the glory and adulation.
It is all HIS glory afterall, you know. Maybe you have forgotten it.
Come now, stop it all, restore the flock and Tom to a fine relationshiop together and with HIM, show the world and the watchers what grace is and who it is that delivers it.
Garlando
The carnal heart knows it's suppose to bring something to God. The spiritual man knows it is Christ and Christ alone and there is nothing he can bring or has to bring.
ReplyDeleteOne of the questions I keep asking that never is answered is what is meant by the “storehouse?” Also, why is the local congregation considered the storehouse? Why not the ecclesia or “Holy Catholic church” as recited in the Apostles Creed? Is there a Biblically based answer or does it just come from tradition?
ReplyDeleteI think all this boils down to the fact that a church is a business and needs money to operate.
ReplyDeletePlus can imagine having a large group of people who think you have some kind of secret spirituality. You give a speech to these people every single week. What power that is! You can use those people by giving them what they want or have come to believe is expected of Christians, and you yourself and your family can greatly benefit financially off them.
All those who knew Brunson in Texas-why did he leave there?
OFF TOPIC:
ReplyDeleteFlorida Times Union - Sunday, January 23, 2011
Topic: Church fights for right to feed homeless
"It was meant to be a regular service project, an extension of an Eastside church's mission to minister to the homeless at least once a month . .
cooked enough food for 200 people & hauled it to Hemming Plaza (BACK YARD OF FBCJ) on Saturday morning because they know that's where the homeless are. . .but the group was told it was violating city ordinance & shut down
There are about 1,500 homeless people downtown on any given day in Jacksonville.
COUNCILMAN DON REDMAN, MEMBER OF FBCJ & ACTIVE LEADER, was out on a bike ride around downtown when he noticed the church groups. The paper reports Redman asked if they had a permit to feed there. They said no, so he called the Police"
What kind of testimony is this Redman? Why didn't you get off your cozy bike & help them this one time and tell them he would help them but the next time they had to get a permit. Where was your heart for these people.
The homeless are in the back yard of FBCJ, who just had a 3.5 million dollar renovation for a warm building and then you have a active member like Redman calling the police to stop the feeding of hungry. but saying he sympathizes with the homeless.
FBCJ is nothing but a 'show home' for the wealthy.
Thanks to these people who tried to give out food & clothes, but because of a complaint (from Redman) the police were called to investigate.
Trying to think of a world where all members @ FBCJ faithful gave 10% or more. Not sure Brunson would be declared a god. If all members did give 10% Brunson would receive a more expensive car, be sent any where in the world at any time, SBC world communes increased. However, who will be saved!
ReplyDeleteFBCJ is nothing but a 'show home' for the wealthy.
ReplyDeleteWhat an asinine comment. I can count all of the "wealthy" people at FBCJ on one hand. The rest of us are average working folks.
One Anon said: All those who knew Brunson in Texas-why did he leave there?
ReplyDeleteMy best guess, he got a better offer at Jacksonville. He seemed to have used the FBCDallas as a springboard to something bigger.
Looks like he got it too. More perks, salary, nearer to his home state. Wife and kid on the payroll. And dare we mention the fluffy land gift?
I always wondered why he had 'Gods Vision' for the this new Criswell center. He used the Nehemiah texts to launch his funding campaign.
Then in the middle of the project, he up and leaves it for Jacksonville. Seemed like a lack of integrity to me, to do that. The so-called 'callings' from God or other churche pulpit committees are always suspect in mind now.
His 'vision' of a new Criswell building took waaaay toooo long to pay off, if it is indeed paid off. Maybe the committee rolled that debt into the new mega building project. But I digress.
I suspect, he is taking all the right steps to become something really big in the SBC somewhere. Similar to OS Hawkins' deal, great salary, nice big title with influence on what gets approved.
Just a career ladder thing, that is my suspicion and sad conclusion.
Garlando
Has anyone counted how many times tithing has been preached in the past year? In the past 52 weeks how many times has Mac Brunson broached the subject of tithing? It seems like at the most conservative they get hit at least once a month.
ReplyDeleteAt our church our pastor will touch on offerings if it is in the text and will preach on "tithing" specifically once a year. But it seems that the good folks at FBCJAX are getting hit with this issue of money and tithing as much as if they were watching a TBN "praise-a-thon".
"What an asinine comment. I can count all of the "wealthy" people at FBCJ on one hand. The rest of us are average working folks."
ReplyDeleteNot if they're $40K/year millionaires like at FBD.
Romans 9:30-33 (King James Version)
ReplyDelete30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
I think you should entertain the possibility that if Mac has it wrong, and all those other "Mega Pastors" have it wrong, then perhaps it is all a bunch of baloney. Wouldn't you think that an all loving, all knowing, all good God who desires to relate to humanity could do a little better job of communicating his will to his followers?
ReplyDeleteColin Murphy,
ReplyDeleteI agree. Why don't Christians ever wonder why their loving God lets so much confusion go on and on?
"Why don't Christians ever wonder why their loving God lets so much confusion go on and on?"
ReplyDeleteOne word: sin
The church has tried, and with a great deal of success, to make "essentials" out of things that just aren't.
ReplyDeleteTithing, drinking, R movies, when/where/how often to go to church, small group study, etc, etc, etc.
The list has gotten so long that "by grace are you saved, through faith" and "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" - true essentials, have fallen completely off.
I'll never again be a part of a church on the terms of a "list holder."
"Why don't Christians ever wonder why their loving God lets so much confusion go on and on?"
ReplyDeleteOne word: sin
___________________________________
That's what you've been taught. What if the answer is not sin? What if the answer is that there IS no God?
Thank about it. It would explain a lot. Not everything. But a lot.
agree. Why don't Christians ever wonder why their loving God lets so much confusion go on and on?
ReplyDeleteJanuary 24, 2011 5:57 AM
Well, at one point, He didn't. He wiped most people off the earth because of their wickedness. He also lamented in Genesis, He was sorry He ever created us. He also sent confusion at one point and scattered people.
But what you are suggesting is that a loving God would have made us robotic with no free will...even to sin. A better and less pedantic question is why does He allow Satan to exist at all?
It is always smart to study the attributes of God. So many do not get it. This is NOT our home. We are just passing through.
It is always smart to study the attributes of God. So many do not get it. This is NOT our home. We are just passing through.
ReplyDeleteis this a training or proving ground/planet for gods people?
Someone telling me there is no God is like telling me I have no wife.
ReplyDeleteWithout intending to sound arrogant, the fact is that I PERSONALLY KNOW the God you say doesn't exist.
Because you may not KNOW Him, does not mean that I do not.
Telling me there is no God is like telling me apple pies don't exist. I know better, because I've had plenty of them.
We just must remember, that not everybody "LIKES" the things of God.
It all depends on if you're an Israelite on the shore, or an Egyptian at the bottom of the Red Sea. God's goodness to the Israelites, wasn't well received by the Egyptians.
God's greatness for David, meant bad news for Goliath.
Very scary theology developing on this thread.
ReplyDeleteI particularly love the "if you don't like it, tough" mentality that continues to surface. And being insulted by another's opinion as if it is a personal attack.
Many people struggle. They just do. "Things of God" are not as black and white for some as for others.
I personally believe that some of the "strugglers" might be in closer communication with God than those who have it all figured out.
Very scary theology developing on this thread.
ReplyDeleteI particularly love the "if you don't like it, tough" mentality that continues to surface. And being insulted by another's opinion as if it is a personal attack.
Many people struggle. They just do. "Things of God" are not as black and white for some as for others.
I personally believe that some of the "strugglers" might be in closer communication with God than those who have it all figured out.
January 24, 2011 10:00 AM
I am confused. Are you saying that people struggle whether there is a God or not? Is so, then how can they be in closer communication if they question His existence in the first place?
Could you please elaborate on what you wrote above. I simply do not understand what you are trying to communicate here.
I think it is perfectly ok to be offended when God is attacked for not being what some humans think is "nice". After all, this is not a known atheist blog but a blog about the SBC, FBCJax and Christendom. We have not succumbed to disccusing whether God exists or not on this blog. However, there are ton of sites that do and some are Christian such as TWW.
All I did was offer another possible explanation for all the confusion.
ReplyDeleteSomeone said sin.
Someone said free will.
Those are both possibly the correct answer. Or they may be incorrect.
I think people should think more broadly. Picture yourself in a room where there's an obvious problem, and everybody's throwing out every possible cause of the problem they can come up with. Don't worry if it sounds dumb, extremely unlikely, etc. Someone's writing a long list of them on the board.
But if some possibilities are not allowed to even be put on the list, you could miss the correct answer.
You cannot blame God for the sin, mistakes and disobedience of man. God is perfect in all of His judgements, concerning man. Why do you think He died on the Cross for sinful man. Man cannot save himself. We will have Judgement Day one day and all will be understood. Be glad that life is prolonged on earth today. God is giving some another chance to be saved today, because He knows how dreadful the Judgement of the lost will be. He Will not always strive with man. Seek the perfect God today while you can. Jesus is the only payment for sin. Man brings sin upon himself....Jesus saves us from ourselves!
ReplyDeleteNo I am not a fanatic, or simple minded. I am saved. I love the Lord and trust Him to lead me. If you are not led by God then maybe you arn't saved.
OFF TOPIC ALSO...I hope Mr. Redmon is never homeless, cold and hungry, not knowing when or if he will have another meal. If so, maybe he will welcome some one who will feed him, whether they have a permit or not!
ReplyDeleteStill waiting on the promised thesis on tithing by Les Puryear. He said he was going to explain why the OT Isrealites paid 3 tithes, and we are only responsible for one today. He also promised to address (on this blog) why they paid in food and livestock in the OT and it's money today.
ReplyDeleteHow long should we give him before we admit to ourselves that he can't do it?
Don't look for it on his blog. That's gone.
Not being God, I cannot fully explain to you why so much confusion exists in the Church. However, no one should be surprised that it exists because Jesus tells us that it will be this way until the end of time. If you study the parables of Matthew 13 Jesus gives us three parables of God’s or Heaven’s kingdom, that is the Church, being as it is, a mix of wheat and weeds, a lump of yeast (sin) permeated dough, and a herb that grows into a tree.
ReplyDeleteThe parable of the wheat and weeds is easy to understand because the disciples asked and Jesus gave us an interpretation. We have an enemy who seeks our destruction. The enemy has sowed weeds among the good seeds. The weeds will remain with us until the harvest.
Now as in all things biblical there are differing interpretations for the last two parables but in the Bible yeast is symbolic of sin so you can easily see the yeast, sin, permeating the Church.
To interrupt the last you have to understand something about creation because in Genesis we learn that God created herbs and trees. An herb is meant to be an herb and a tree is meant to be a tree, one is not meant to become the other. So when the herb, mustard, grows into a tree it become something that God did not want.
So I hope you can see that while we may not like it this is the way it is.
Jesus then tells the disciples three more parables. The Kingdom is like a man finding a treasure in a field who then sells all he has to buy the field and redeem the treasure. Another is a man searching for pearls finds one of great value so he too sells all that he has to redeem the pearl.
In both of these parables the man is Jesus. Jesus came an sold all to redeem the Church, the treasure in the field and the pearl of great price.
The last parable speaks of final judgment where the good fish are separated from the bad fish. “This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Think (thank) about it. (LOL, sorry couldn't resist.) What if there is a God? What are the consequences? Jesus gave everything for you and asks you for nothing because frankly you have nothing to give. Why not accept a completely free gift from the eternal God.
To the lost person who fails to believe there is a God. We only live for 70 years on average. If the Christian is correct he/she will spend eternity in Heaven. The lost will spend eternity in Hell. If the grave is all there is neither the Christian or the lost will spend anytime out of the grave, however would you want to gamble eternity for whatever reason there is rather than choose the Savior to save you. I think not but its your choice. When it comes down we all have a God whether it be the true God or the false one.
ReplyDeleteAll I did was offer another possible explanation for all the confusion.
ReplyDeleteSomeone said sin.
Someone said free will.
Those are both possibly the correct answer. Or they may be incorrect.
I think people should think more broadly. Picture yourself in a room where there's an obvious problem, and everybody's throwing out every possible cause of the problem they can come up with. Don't worry if it sounds dumb, extremely unlikely, etc. Someone's writing a long list of them on the board.
But if some possibilities are not allowed to even be put on the list, you could miss the correct answer.
January 24, 2011 11:38 AM
Could you point us to the comment "time stamp" where you offer a possible explanation for all the confusion? You do not even tell us what "confusion" you are referring to.
No one is "limiting" possibilities. I think you miss the point here. We are not focused on whether there is a God or not. We are focusing on what scripture teaches and how Mac is twisting that teaching.
'Still waiting on the promised thesis on tithing by Les Puryear.'
ReplyDeleteLes is a little busy looking for a job.
Anon 11:22
ReplyDeleteNot questioning God's existence at all. I've been a Christian most of my life.
I'm just saying that many people struggle. On all levels of spirituality. Some with whether there is a God. Some with why they don't feel His presence. Others with why they don't sense His leading.
For those people to hear well, you don't have to like what God does or understand what God does and it's your problem if you don't believe - I just don't think that accomplishes anything. It certainlly doesn't help the struggler.
Things are not black and white for everyone. Not even for all believers. People struggle. Jacob wrestled. David felt abandoned. I struggle sometimes, and other times my faith soars. Sometimes it is my own fault, and sometimes it is just a period of testing or preparation. In all cases, God is faithful and can be depended upon.
That's all I'm saying.
'Still waiting on the promised thesis on tithing by Les Puryear.'
ReplyDeleteLes is a little busy looking for a job.
Shouldn't he (being a pastor who believes the tithe is for today) be able to defend his position whenever it is questioned?
Now that he has lots of free time, perhaps we will get an answer.
I am anon 9:04 and anon 11:38.
ReplyDeleteWishIHadKnown,
I laughed too when I reread my comment with "thank" instead of "think!" But then I am from the South, so it worked anyway-lol.
I guess my point was that with all the confusion, different Bible interpretations, disagreements, it seems that that would cause Christians to start to question the whole thing and wonder if there is a God, wonder about the Bible, etc., etc.
I would make one further comment. Someone mentioned the tares or weeds among the wheat. Do people ever call each other that directly? Do they say, well, Brother Harry's wrong (I think he's a weed among us wheats here.)? I mean when you look around your particular church, do you have secret ideas about who is which? And if you they are tares, would you dare tell them to their face?
But I don't want to derail the thread with off-topic stuff. I am agnostic now, but a former fundamental, Independent Baptist. I really have no business here other than the SBC is similar to my background somewhat.
Thanks for all the responses to my comment. I'll leave it at that.
"Not if they're $40K/year millionaires like at FBD."
ReplyDeleteAnother asinine comment. When does making $40 K per year make you a millionaire?"
Average Joe, are you really that dense? $40K a year millionaire is a sarcastic term to highlight those whose outward lifestyle doesn't reflect their actual income. Lived in Dallas my whole life and this place is full of those types.
ReplyDeleteLighten up, dude.
Anon 1:37 pm. If you were a former fundalmental saved Ind. Baptist then you do realize that you can't be unborn from being born? You may think you are an agnostic, however once you were saved that can never change. You will seperate fellowship between you and the Lord but thats all. You will eventually come back to the fold like so many wanderers. Read Charles Stanley's book "Eternal Security". You can find it in most book stores. Then come back and tell us of your decision.
ReplyDelete"I guess my point was that with all the confusion, different Bible interpretations, disagreements, it seems that that would cause Christians to start to question the whole thing and wonder if there is a God, wonder about the Bible, etc., etc."
ReplyDeleteThere is even more confusion, different interpretations, and disagreements among agnostics than there are for Christians.
Does that every cause you to start questioning the whole thing?
Disclosure: I used to be an agnostic but didn't have enough faith to stick with it.
I am neither a Judge, Prosecutor, Juror nor Defendant’s attorney. I am only a witness and I can only testify to those things I have seen and experienced. God is good. Satan is evil. Grace is wonder but discipline is hard.
ReplyDeleteOne other thought on confusion. How many of us have earthly families where all are in agreement and there are no fights and quarrels?
Anon 2:11,
ReplyDeleteYou may be right. I've thought and read so much, I think you can overdo that stuff. Have no desire to drive myself nuts. But on the other hand, once you've broadened your knowledge, you certainly can't go back to smiling and nodding at all the stuff they tell you in churches.
Anon 1:58,
Thanks for your kind words.
Anon 1:37 pm. If you were a former fundalmental saved Ind. Baptist then you do realize that you can't be unborn from being born? You may think you are an agnostic, however once you were saved that can never change. You will seperate fellowship between you and the Lord but thats all. You will eventually come back to the fold like so many wanderers. Read Charles Stanley's book "Eternal Security". You can find it in most book stores. Then come back and tell us of your decision.
ReplyDeleteJanuary 24, 2011 1:58 PM
Yikes. Stay away from Stanley. Just read the Word and leave "Christian leaders" out of it. Most are corrupt. Esp the famous ones. Stanley is one of the paid professionals and has a list a mile long of tyranny. Made a fortune off the Gospel, too.
In fact, that is part of your problem. You were in a very authoritarian denomination. Know Christ. Not what some man tells you about Christ.
"I guess my point was that with all the confusion, different Bible interpretations, disagreements, it seems that that would cause Christians to start to question the whole thing and wonder if there is a God, wonder about the Bible, etc., etc."
ReplyDeleteI can understand where you are coming from. But the problem is that when one has the indwelling Holy Spirit...they know. And it has to eventually show itself in fruit.
What amazes me is that we have any decent translations at all. I am also amazed that the calendar we use today is based upon Jesus Christ.
And what you describe above is simply the sinful nature of man wanting to elevate themselves and thinking they know best what you should believe.
The worst thing to Christianity is that it was legalized under Constantine. It became part of the government and now it is a business. But none of that was or is now, the real thing. There are fewer true followers of Christ than most think.
In the end, we can only share the Bad and Good News. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit to convict one it is true and they need a Savior.
"$40K a year millionaire is a sarcastic term to highlight those whose outward lifestyle doesn't reflect their actual income."
ReplyDeleteMust be a Texas concept; acting like you make more than you do. Is that what you are saying. Must be the t-sip in me coming out.
Certainly his logic is flawed here. Teaching people to give to the church, however, is part of his job as a pastor.
ReplyDeleteTeaching the tithe as Law is problematic because it begs the question: what about all the other OT laws? (to name just one thing)
The question that helps me here is this: should I give less under grace than under the Law, or more?
ATTN: 4:01 PM: Agree with you re Stanley. I am just saying his book on "Eternal Security" makes it very clear. For the record I have KNOWN Jesus for 62 years. Also, for the record, the Bible is my authority, not any man.
ReplyDeleteStill waiting on the promised thesis on tithing by Les Puryear. He said he was going to explain why the OT Isrealites paid 3 tithes, and we are only responsible for one today. He also promised to address (on this blog) why they paid in food and livestock in the OT and it's money today.
ReplyDeleteHow long should we give him before we admit to ourselves that he can't do it?
Don't look for it on his blog. That's gone.
You should still be able to snag the old posts in Google Reader if you subscribe to this:
http://lesliepuryear.blogspot.com
New BBC open Forum
ReplyDeleteGive his as much time as needs. I might take sometime, espically if he needs to consult king Brunson.
"Average Joe, are you really that dense? $40K a year millionaire is a sarcastic term to highlight those whose outward lifestyle doesn't reflect their actual income. Lived in Dallas my whole life and this place is full of those types."
ReplyDeleteTHAT was my point DUDE!
Anon 8:42,
ReplyDeleteHuh?
"Average Joe, are you really that dense? $40K a year millionaire is a sarcastic term to highlight those whose outward lifestyle doesn't reflect their actual income. Lived in Dallas my whole life and this place is full of those types."
ReplyDeleteTHAT was my point DUDE!
Every thing is bigger in texas or is it not?
Bailey Smith teaches tithing.
ReplyDeleteAdrian Rogers taught tithing.
Charles Stanley teaches tithing.
Ed Young Sr. teaches tithing.
Johnny Hunt teaches tithing.
Chuck Swindoll teaches tithing.
Greg Laurie teaches tithing.
Billy Graham teaches tithing.
Dave Ramsey teaches tithing.
David Platt teaches tithing.
Apostle Paul taught tithing.
The Lord Jesus taught tithing.
WHY ARE 'YOU' AGAINST WHAT GOD ORDAINED?
COULD IT BE 'YOU' WANT TO KEEP YOUR BEER MONEY?
Lord Jesus did not teach tithing. You've been lied to.
ReplyDeleteAnd there's more to add:
Homer Lindsay, Jr. taught it.
Homer Lindsay, Sr. taught it.
The Mormons teach it.
Marduke the Moon God taught it.
But, it ain't in da book.
NewBBC,
ReplyDeleteI interrupt it as:
Give him (Les Puryear) as much time as needs. It might take some time, especially if he needs to consult king Brunson.
"Average Joe, are you really that dense? $40K a year millionaire is a sarcastic term to highlight those whose outward lifestyle doesn't reflect their actual income. Lived in Dallas my whole life and this place is full of those types."
ReplyDeleteTHAT was my point DUDE!
Me thinks y'all call that "swagger" in Texas! Do y'all brag on Jesus like that?
So God ordains something that is easier for the rich to obey than the poor?
ReplyDeleteAhhhhh, Christian fundraising at its best.
ReplyDelete"The Lord Jesus taught tithing."
ReplyDeleteThen why did Jesus tell Peter, "The sons are free" when Peter obliged Jesus to pay the temple tax?
You really should study on your own. Those teaching you the tithe live off it.
BTW: "Tithe" means "tax".
ATTN: 4:01 PM: Agree with you re Stanley. I am just saying his book on "Eternal Security" makes it very clear. For the record I have KNOWN Jesus for 62 years. Also, for the record, the Bible is my authority, not any man.
ReplyDeleteJanuary 24, 2011 7:15 PM
Glad you agree. Now, stop promoting his or any other human's books ABOUT the bible and promote the Word. How do you expect people to follow Christ alone when we continue to promote what men say instead of what the Holy Spirit said?
Stanley is a charlatan. He has protected evil in the SBC and has been a tyrant who got rich off the Gospel. Who cares what such a man has said?
In fact, his son, Andy who runs a mega, rarely ever uses scripture in his sermons. I seriously doubt he knows much scripture. It is mainly movtivational talks.
But, like Daddy, makes a fortune off what he sells as the Gospel.
Agree on Stanley. Just where does he go to promote his books? Why TBN of course.Enough said.
ReplyDelete"The question that helps me here is this: should I give less under grace than under the Law, or more?"
ReplyDeleteMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT, I think God does not judge us on how much we give but our attitude in the giving.
Bailey Smith teaches tithing.
ReplyDeleteAdrian Rogers taught tithing.
Charles Stanley teaches tithing.
Ed Young Sr. teaches tithing.
Johnny Hunt teaches tithing.
Chuck Swindoll teaches tithing.
Greg Laurie teaches tithing.
Billy Graham teaches tithing.
Dave Ramsey teaches tithing.
David Platt teaches tithing.
Apostle Paul taught tithing.
The Lord Jesus taught tithing.
You are correct Anonymous Ben. And since you are a man-worshiper that's really all the precedent you need.
Unfortunately the OT taught 3 tithes and the NT teaches none.
Apostle Paul taught tithing.
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 9: 7
The Lord Jesus taught tithing.
ReplyDeleteYou could only come to this conclusion by not understanding how to interpret scripture in context for yourself.
And there you have the problem of today's typical man-worshiping pew sitter.
Two words: Grow Up
Hey Tom,
ReplyDeleteI know what you think about the "tithing" issue, and you're certainly free to disagree with it.
However, saying that Bailey, Adrian, Stanley, Lindsay's and Ramsay LIED to their people is accusing them of maliciously misleading. I know that there are some who do "maliciously mislead", but I don't think you can put those men in that category.
Second, We DISAGREE about it what it says in the book.
I've been around the merry-go-round enough and have no desire to get back into the debate but, I DO SEE it in the book, I DO see it in the New Testament. I realize that others DO not.
I would be very cautious about accusing some of those men of intentionally lying to their congregations, when they were being honest about what they saw in the scriptures.
Some insist the tithe is a "medium", when the principle of the tithe is the "amount."
I just can't handle saying that Adrian lied. We know better than that. He was not that kind of man.
Wish he was still here for the PC
J. Vernon McGee taught free will giving
ReplyDeleteJohn MacArthur teaches free will giving
The Apostle Paul taught free willing giving in 2 Corinthians 9: 7
Jesus teaches free will giving
What good was Christ’s sacrifice if we still seek to be justified based on how well we keep God’s Laws? If you believe that Christians who do not tithe will be under “the curse” (which, by the way, is death), then why do we need Christ? All we’d need to do is tithe (and keep the other 600+ commandments in the Law) and we’d have eternal life. If you desire to live under the Law, then you’re really desiring to live a life apart from faith in Christ. Your faith is in the Law and its ability to save you.
Totally absurd, Jeff, to say I am accusing any or ask of these men of "maliciously lying". You're better than that. I have said many times that Lindsay taught tithing sincerely. Sorry but all of these men could be wrong and it shakes my faith not one bit nor does it alter my respect for them.
ReplyDelete"I DO SEE it in the book, I DO see it in the New Testament. I realize that others DO not."
ReplyDeleteThat's because you are listening to a man (who gets his paycheck from the tithe) and can't interpret scripture correctly for yourself.
You would have never come to that interpretation without someone preaching a tithing sermon to you.
That's why no one paid the tithe for the first 700 years of the NT church.
In the 8th century the church used OT tithing verses to raise money using pagan land leasing principles.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
"I would be very cautious about accusing some of those men of intentionally lying to their congregations, when they were being honest about what they saw in the scriptures."
ReplyDeleteIs this the same brand of logic you use to interpret scripture? If so, I can see where the problem lies.
According to Anonymous Ben, there are only 2 possibilities. The specially-anointed man of God is either 100% correct or a liar.
Does anyone see any problem with that logic? I didn't know that Baptists had popes in the pulpit.
According to your thinking, you are calling J. Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, the Billy Graham association, and the Apostle Paul liars.
You've tried this same tactic before on this blog.
You must be a slow learner.
"I would be very cautious about accusing some of those men of intentionally lying to their congregations, when they were being honest about what they saw in the scriptures."
ReplyDeleteIntentionally lying? Wow, that is a huge leap. Most pastors are deceived about tithing because it is taught in seminary and easy to believe because it is where they will get their income.
If they did not rely on tithing for income, it might have been easier for them to see the problems with teaching tithing in the New Covenant. The tithe is a 'tax' for Israel. I guess that means Gentiles do not need to pay. Only converted Jews?
I wondering how well it is going to go down now that a few SBC seminary profs are teaching the truth about tithing and even writing about it. It is amazing how many things that are tradition only are taught was biblical truth. The pulpit is another one.
Lots of big time pastors were deceived about tithing. You have equated truth with men and not the Word. A big problem in the church today.
"According to your thinking, you are calling J. Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, the Billy Graham association, and the Apostle Paul liars. "
ReplyDeleteTrue. Not to mention a few SBC profs like Kostenburger at SEBTS who wrote about book on the subject.
So, they are liars?
Or are they people who simply disagree on a secondary, non salvic doctrine? And we are discussing it.
I do wonder though, how many tithing pastors would teach that Christians should give tithe because Pagans did?
"I just can't handle saying that Adrian lied. We know better than that. He was not that kind of man."
ReplyDeleteSad. You keep proving over and over how you follow man instead of Christ.
You know I am always amazed at how the subject of these threads gets twisted. The question is not whether tithing is right or wrong. Tithing is good. Tithing is right; if that is what God the Holy Spirit has shown you that that is what you are to do.
ReplyDeleteIf you’re a thither stand up and pat yourself on the back and give yourself a standing ovation, you deserve it. After all, there really are not that many of you.
The thing is though; neither I nor any man can give you a number or percentage for what to give to God’s work. The correct amount is between you and God. What does God desire most? Your money or that you seek to know Him in the fullness of His grace.
The question be for us is; is it right and proper for this new generation of preachers to so vehemently stress tithing that they come across as sounding like it is a requirement for salvation?
Or, is it possible, you believe tithing is a part of salvation? (Here’s a clue, it’s not.)
Also, you have to take scripture for what it says; you cannot just take a piece of the truth and use it to support your position. That brothers and sisters is wrong, that my friends is a lie! Are we not admonished to neither add to nor take away from scripture?
Malachi is specific in what it says and it clearly says “tithes and offerings.” In the law these are clearly defined and if you purpose to follow the law then you must fully comply with the law. Otherwise you are a law breaker.
So how is it we chop “tithes and offerings” down to just a tithe or 10%? Is it just because some guys stands up on Sunday morning and taunts us saying give God his 10% or else?
Read for yourselves and see what God says:
2 Cor 9:6-7
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Or another
Remember this--a farmer who plants only a few seeds will get a small crop. But the one who plants generously will get a generous crop. You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully."
Exodus 25:2 "Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from each man whose heart prompts him to give.
Deuteronomy 15:10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
1 Chronicles 29:9 The people rejoiced at the willing response of their leaders, for they had given freely and wholeheartedly to the LORD. David the king also rejoiced greatly.
1 Chronicles 29:17 I know, my God, that you test the heart and are pleased with integrity. All these things have I given willingly and with honest intent. And now I have seen with joy how willingly your people who are here have given to you.
Proverbs 11:25 A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.
Romans 12:8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
2 Corinthians 8:12 For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.
Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteI was referencing your statment in 10:13 to whoever that "You've been lied to" and then added more men to the list.
It was my understanding that you were saying this man had been "lied to" BY men like Adrian, and Stanley - etc.
My apologies for misreading.
To some other anon
- For the record,
I NEVER follow a man over Christ.
I DO KNOW some men well enough to KNOW that they are not men of ill character.
What is sad is that you apparantly do not KNOW anyone well enough to discern the integrity of who a man really is. That's not MAN WORSHIP, that's merely having a strong Christian bond in fellowship.
One last time for the record.
Those who believe the tithe is a principle to be practiced NEVER tie it to a person's salvation, NEVER tie to "LAW KEEPING" and NEVER tie to "WORKS".
Tithing has nothing to do with the law.
Yet I fully realize not everyone sees this, understands this, or accepts this, and that's okay.
Jeff you are wrong. You wan't find the word tithing after the cross. Its not there. Its strictly to the Jew in the OT. Start reading the NT for yourself and stop listening to those who would have you place that yoke upon you or anyone else.
ReplyDelete"I NEVER follow a man over Christ."
ReplyDeleteIf that were the case then you wouldn't believe in an old covenant tithe would you?
"I DO KNOW some men well enough to KNOW that they are not men of ill character."
Does that mean that they are incapable of error?
I thought it was God's job to judge men's hearts.
"What is sad is that you apparantly do not KNOW anyone well enough to discern the integrity of who a man really is. That's not MAN WORSHIP, that's merely having a strong Christian bond in fellowship."
Man-worship is putting a mere man (respected pastor) in a role that only God deserves. A good example would be to accuse someone who disagrees with a particular pastor of calling them a liar as if they are incapable of being wrong.
Actions speak louder than words.
"Those who believe the tithe is a principle to be practiced NEVER tie it to a person's salvation, NEVER tie to "LAW KEEPING" and NEVER tie
to "WORKS".
That, of course, is just factually wrong and is one of the problems when you try to speak for everyone.
"Tithing has nothing to do with the law."
What? It's a part of the OT covenant with Isreal. That, by definition, is part of the law. It's amazing that someone can sit in a church for decades and know this little about scripture. Sad.
"Yet I fully realize not everyone sees this, understands this, or accepts this, and that's okay."
Not Okay. The Bible teaches us to study to show ourselves approved - not believe whatever your pastor tells you. You have obviously chosen the later path. The teaching on NT free will giving is clear in 2 Corinthians 9: 7.
One last thing, could you not write with ALL CAPS and tons of exclamation points? You come off like a teenager or emotionally unbalanced.
"I NEVER follow a man over Christ."
ReplyDeleteYour comments prove different.
"Those who believe the tithe is a principle to be practiced NEVER tie it to a person's salvation, NEVER tie to "LAW KEEPING" and NEVER tie to "WORKS". "
ReplyDeleteReally? So, when they say that God will bless you because you tithe...what do they mean? When they say you are robbing God when you do not tithe, what do they mean?
Sounds like works to me.
I think it's time for a new post on the WD. This thread is getting stale and smelly.
ReplyDelete"I think it's time for a new post on the WD. This thread is getting stale and smelly."
ReplyDeleteJanuary 25, 2011 12:42 PM
I agree with above WD. Our hearts are rewarded when we can share our financial blessings with God's storehouse, which to us is the Mission field with the missionaries who have 2 jobs, one to raise their own funds and the other to do their ministry work. They don't make 6 figure incomes, don't live in the country club residential communities, but depend daily on God to meet their needs. It's a joy to give out of love to those who we see who really needs financial assistance. Ever see a hole in one of the Mega pastor's shoes? Don't think so. :>)
I believe churches have been hijacked for more than a century, we are in a reality path not chosen by the real god.
ReplyDeleteNew article coming up later today. Got a few humdingers coming up that will be sure to generate lots of discussion.
ReplyDeleteIt is possible to be a person of integrity and and still be totally and sincerely WRONG.
ReplyDelete"It is possible to be a person of integrity and and still be totally and sincerely WRONG."
ReplyDeleteOf course it is, I've heard Charles Swindoll say that he is embarrassed about some of his earlier teachings, and he wishes he could erase those early tapes.
Even the mega's themselves don't usually hold their teachings as infallible.
It's only the man-worshiping pew sitters that do that.
Now I can see why the first century church didn't have a pastor, and there was no separation between clergy and laity.
It's just too tempting for the average church member to rely on the pastor's interpretation (that he learned from seminary) and never learn how to exegete scripture for himself (as the Bible teaches us to do).
i hope one of those humdingers is about redmons actions this past weekend. absolutely unbelievable....is this the new attempt this year to clean downtown of the homeless before the pastors conference? that was my immediate thought.
ReplyDelete"Now I can see why the first century church didn't have a pastor . . ."
ReplyDeleteWhat?
James who pastored a Jerusalem
Timothy who pastored at Ephesus
Ephesians 4:11
sumbuddy needs some history.
ephs 4:11 is not a reference for James and Timothy, just a Biblical reference to the office.
ReplyDeletesame anon
@agnostic anon: You said "once you've broadened your knowledge". Can you explain why agnosticism is "broadened knowledge" while believing eyewitness testimony about a historical event (Jesus' resurrection) is not? If we take this idea into other topics such as a court of law, it would mean that the broad-minded judge would allow any and all testimony regardless of its quality. I see nothing broader about agnosticism.
ReplyDelete@ anon January 25, 2011 5:03 PM:
Not one person in the NT is labeled a "pastor". Timothy was an evangelist and missionary; he traveled a lot. So was Paul.
I think somebody needs to stop revising history. ;-)
"ephs 4:11 is not a reference for James and Timothy, just a Biblical reference to the office."
ReplyDeleteSorry, no "office" in the Greek. It was added by the translators. "pastoring" is a function within the Body.
GOD TEACHES US ABOUT THE TITHE: HE SAID TEST ME:
ReplyDelete1. Tithing Began in the Garden of Eden
2. When Jesus Died on the Cross, God Was Paying His Tithe
3. If You Don't Tithe, God Will Take That Ten Percent from You
4. Heaven Will Be Shut Up Against You If You Don't Tithe
5. Twenty-Percent Penalty on Unpaid Tithes (Lev. 5:15–16)
6. Give Only to People and Ministries That Tithe or Your Seed Won't Multiply
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2 Cor. 9:6)
YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE WORD BROTHER!!!!!!
But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2 Cor. 9:6)
ReplyDeleteWould you please break this parable down for me please?
thanks, Bob
It appears to me that God has been telling every individual a little something different. It's no wonder there are an estimated 38,000 Christian sects.
ReplyDeleteThere are truths that make us uncomfortable:
ReplyDeleteThe best thing you can do for the poor is not to be one of them.
The LACK of money is the root of all evil.
Forget about the pie in the sky, get yours here and now.
If it's that difficult for a rich man to get into heaven, think how terrible it must be for a poor man to get in . He doesn't even have a bribe for the gatekeeper
It appears to me that God has been telling every individual a little something different. It's no wonder there are an estimated 38,000 Christian sects.
ReplyDeleteSounds like some hasty evil force is diong his job.
5:03 PM: "sumbuddy needs some history":
ReplyDeletePlease, please not more history! Don't encourage MORE history. We get quite enough history as it is. Thanks!
What?
ReplyDeleteJames who pastored a Jerusalem
Timothy who pastored at Ephesus
Ephesians 4:11
sumbuddy needs some history.
January 25, 2011 5:03 PM
James was an elder in Jerusalem. Timothy was sent to Ephesus to deal with some problems in the church. He was itinerent.
You have believed what tradition has taught about "pastor". It is a function not an office. Perhaps you can name all the pastors of every NT church. I am sure you can since you seem to think it is an office in the Body of Christ. I am sure scripture names them? Even all the letters are addressed to them and the elders?
(An interesting study Viola did was on this very topic. Interesting read if you are brave enough to read it and check every word he writes, yourself. I did and it took weeks. You might have to change your thinking a bit and start following Christ instead of men with titles)
http://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf
"But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. (2 Cor. 9:6)
ReplyDeleteWould you please break this parable down for me please?
thanks, Bob"
Hi Bob,
The context of that verse (no proof texting!) starts in chapter 8 about the collection for the persecuted Christians in Jerusalem.
Note what Paul says in chapter 8:
13 Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, 15 as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.”[b]
This collection was not for Paul's salary. Nor was it for Titus who was helping. It was for others in the Body who were suffering persecution and had need.
Then go read what Paul says about himself and money in Acts 20.
"GOD TEACHES US ABOUT THE TITHE: HE SAID TEST ME:
ReplyDelete1. Tithing Began in the Garden of Eden"
Would you kindly point out the chapter and verse for this declaration?
"2. When Jesus Died on the Cross, God Was Paying His Tithe"
God was paying a "tax"?
"3. If You Don't Tithe, God Will Take That Ten Percent from You"
Can you show me that verse in the NT, Please. It must say "10%" to be relevant to your delcaration.
"4. Heaven Will Be Shut Up Against You If You Don't Tithe"
Chapter and verse, please, in the NT.
". Twenty-Percent Penalty on Unpaid Tithes (Lev. 5:15–16)"
But the "tithe" is 23% in the OC.
So why are you claiming "10%" in all your declarations above?
"6. Give Only to People and Ministries That Tithe or Your Seed Won't Multiply"
Chapter and verse in the NT, please.
"YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH THE WORD BROTHER!!!!!!"
You do not know the Word, friend. You are simply parroting what you have heard from some pulpits that you believe is truth.
It would help your credibility if you actually debated each point you make with scripture in context. Proof texting will not work.
"Tithing has nothing to do with the law."
ReplyDeleteThis is the most biblically ignorant statement on this blog yet. I am astonished at how biblically ignorant so many are on this blog.
Not even your tithing teaching pastors would make this statement. They believe this part of the law was carried over to the New Covenant. they just whittled it down to 10% to make it more palatbable. Then they try to teach that Abraham gave Mel 10% from his spoils of war and that proves a tithe earlier than the law. Problem is, that was a ONE time event and the "spoils of war"...not on what was produced from the land and animals.
It is amazing what folks will believe. The tithe is from the law. The very word "tithe" means "tax". Duh.
"4. Heaven Will Be Shut Up Against You If You Don't Tithe"
ReplyDeleteI guess the persecuted Christians rotting in prisons in China and other places have no hope since they have nothing to "tithe" in prison. Heaven is shut up against them.
It would be nice if you used just a scintilla of logic and wisdom in your juevenile comments full of soundbite heresy. What is it about soundbites that make people believe it is always truth? Not thinking things through to their logical conclusion?
"2. When Jesus Died on the Cross, God Was Paying His Tithe"
ReplyDeletePreposterous, if not blasphemous.
I thought God wanted a cheerful giver. How can anyone give cheerfully after this knock-down, drag-out, shouting match abuse from Mac????
ReplyDeleteHe gets personal like this because he has so much riding on your money - namely, keeping up his fancy, high-priced lifestyle for him and his family.
thought God wanted a cheerful giver. How can anyone give cheerfully after this knock-down, drag-out, shouting match abuse from Mac????
ReplyDeleteHe gets personal like this because he has so much riding on your money - namely, keeping up his fancy, high-priced lifestyle for him and his family.
January 26, 2011 8:32 AM
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That's why Mac proposed a South Campus in the rich communities of Ponte Vedra Beach & Nocatee.
He invaded a community where sister churches are already there & grounded. The outreach was about bringing in more money.
That's why Mac proposed a South Campus in the rich communities of Ponte Vedra Beach & Nocatee.
ReplyDeleteHe invaded a community where sister churches are already there & grounded. The outreach was about bringing in more money.
January 26, 2011 8:49 AM
That is exactly what my former mega did! They said they did a survey on where a church was "wanted" and planted them ther. (They are not church plants as the senior pastor preaches on a sat downlink and is not there physically)
So these 2 needed "church plants" are in the two wealthiest zip codes with a 50 mile radius. And lo and behold! There are plenty of churches in each zip code. But they are small and not as exciting.
The sat campus model that most mega's are adopting is the only way they can grow. They have climaxed in growth and needed a new strategy. It is all about nickels and noses.
Why can't we understand these basic truths!! This is Grade School stuff people!!!
ReplyDeleteWhen we stand on our covenant with God and exercise our rights as tithers, we lay a foundation for success and abundance. Satan has no chance against us.
Tithing the tithe rebukes the devourer! When we resist Satan in the Name of Jesus, God's rebuke is in action. God told the Israelites their words were stout against Him. They were confessing lack and want. It is important to speak our redemption in order for the tithe to produce.
Where you place you tithe depends on where you are receiving your spiritual food. God says to bring the tithes into the storehouse. That is where the food is—where a pastor, an evangelist, an apostle or some other ministry is in operation.
When you give, you are not giving to an individual, but for the furtherance of the gospel. Since your tithe is God's money and since Jesus is the One who handles and receives it, you should always pray and let Him tell you where it should be put to work.
GROW UP IN JESUS!!!!
"When we stand on our covenant with God and exercise our rights as tithers, we lay a foundation for success and abundance."
ReplyDeleteThis is not giving but investing; it's the old prosperity gospel: give to get. And it completely ignores all that has been said here about NT giving.
I picture someone with their fingers in their ears, stamping their feet, and shouting "Tithe! Tithe! Tithe!"
"When Jesus Died on the Cross, God Was Paying His Tithe"
ReplyDelete1 - Who did he pay it to?
2 - You mean only 10% of my sins are paid for?
"Tithing has nothing to do with the law."
ReplyDeleteThis is the most biblically ignorant statement on this blog yet. I am astonished at how biblically ignorant so many are on this blog.
Not even your tithing teaching pastors would make this statement. They believe this part of the law was carried over to the New Covenant."
Actually this is probably one of the most ignorant statements. - I don't say that insultingly. It is true that many really do not know what they are talking about. Many tithe-teaching pastors have made that statement.
Many tithe-teaching preachers never touch the law. - They do not believe that it is part of the old-law carried over to the new covenant. Some may, but not all.
Many teach that the tithe is an eternal principle that is pictured in scripture, before, during, and after the law. Therefore they do not use the "law" as the basis for Christian practice.
Whoever teaches the tithe based on law would in fact be ignoring the New Covenant and the cross of Christ.
Some teach that it is a principle that transcends all dispensations, based upon it's existence prior to, and after the law system.
James who pastored a Jerusalem
ReplyDeleteTimothy who pastored at Ephesus
Ephesians 4:11
sumbuddy needs some history.
sumbuddy needs a lesson in hermeneutics.
Neither was pastor of those churches.
The modern day pastor was a position borrowed from the 3rd century pagan culture where golden-voiced orators were hired to speak at the temple.
the sumbuddy that needs to study history is you my friend.
"exercise our rights as tithers"
ReplyDeleteThis may be the best one yet.
The bad theology faucet in this thread has gone from a drip to a gushing leak.
Someone said local pastors is actually a pagan thing. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteI also heard recently that church steeples are a pagan thing.
"Why can't we understand these basic truths!! This is Grade School stuff people!!!"
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of grade school stuff, could you use a few more exclamation marks? Is that supposed to distract us from your lack of biblical knowledge?
"When we stand on our covenant with God and exercise our rights as tithers, we lay a foundation for success and abundance. Satan has no chance against us."
This statement promotes both a prosperity gospel and a works salvation. The covenant that you speak of is the OT covenant. We are living under the NT covenant today. Free will giving is the model in 2 Corinthians 9: 7.
In addition, what you are saying doesn't work out in practical terms. Some of the most vial sinners are multi-billionaires today. Some of God's greatest saints have taken a vow of poverty and frankly are better off for it.
"Tithing the tithe rebukes the devourer! When we resist Satan in the Name of Jesus, God's rebuke is in action. God told the Israelites their words were stout against Him. They were confessing lack and want. It is important to speak our redemption in order for the tithe to produce."
Putting on the full armor of God is the Biblical prescription for resisting Satan. Reverting to Old Testament law in light of Christ's great sacrifice and the freedom that we have been given as joint heirs with Christ is an insult to His grace. It is spoken out against harshly in the book of Hebrews.
"Where you place you tithe depends on where you are receiving your spiritual food. God says to bring the tithes into the storehouse. That is where the food is—where a pastor, an evangelist, an apostle or some other ministry is in operation."
You are equivocating on the word "food" here. In the OT, when the tithe was a law for the Israelites, they gave 3 tithes of literal food and it was stored in a literal storehouse. That literal food was given to literal Levites who were not allowed to own anything and also fed the widows and poor people and was used for mandatory religious festivals.
You have attempted to change the literal meaning of the word to "spiritual food." You are, of course, reading a modern meaning into the text that it was never meant to have in context.
"When you give, you are not giving to an individual, but for the furtherance of the gospel. Since your tithe is God's money and since Jesus is the One who handles and receives it, you should always pray and let Him tell you where it should be put to work."
But the monies given are going somewhere aren't they? The majority of the money is indeed going to one individual (the head pastor). The vast majority of the money is going toward individual staff salaries, a building, and grounds. Is that how you think Christ would spend the money? Why or why not?
"GROW UP IN JESUS!!!!"
This is the type of statement that is generally made by a mature and capable bible student. Reading your post it is obvious that you are not. I would advise you to take your own advice and spend some time learning proper Biblical interpretation methods.
Your statement typed in all caps with four exclamation marks can't be taken seriously.
Someone said local pastors is actually a pagan thing. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteI also heard recently that church steeples are a pagan thing.
Almost every tradition in the modern church (pastor, building, grounds, choir, special clothing, division of laity and clergy,songs, steeple, stained glass and on and on) nearly all come from the 3rd century pagan culture in Rome.
Read the book "Pagan Christianity"
If tithing is such an imperative, why did it take until the seventh century and the establishment of the Holy Roman Empire for it to be taught?
ReplyDeleteAs far as Grade School is concerned, what I learned is there are only two ordinances as far as Baptist are concerned, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper. No where was I ever taught that tithing was an ordinance.
You say that you tithe and God rebukes the destroyer. If that is true, do you regularly change the oil in your car? Why? If the destroyer is rebuked then the oil in your car should stay perpetually pristine, right?
Have you replaced the tires? Bought a new car? Why?
Do you have to buy new clothes because you old clothes wear out? What about your shoes, if you looked at the soles right now would they not show wear?
Your assertions do not quite gel with reality do they?
Take a break friends. Satan is having a field day here. Divide and conquer is his ever plan. I've tithed for many rears and could care less whether others do. I see tithing in God's word so I tithe. Giving is between you and the Lord. I hope we can get off this subject and get on to the other issues that are destroying the local church. Like:
ReplyDelete1. Making churches entertainment venues.
2. Minimizing the Gospel
3. No visitation
4. Churches are becoming businesses.
5. Churches are useing Robert Schuller and Rick Warren as men to follow when trying to grow their churches.
etc......
"Take a break friends. Satan is having a field day here. Divide and conquer is his ever plan. I've tithed for many rears and could care less whether others do. I see tithing in God's word so I tithe. Giving is between you and the Lord. I hope we can get off this subject and get on to the other issues that are destroying the local church. Like:
ReplyDelete1. Making churches entertainment venues.
2. Minimizing the Gospel
3. No visitation
4. Churches are becoming businesses.
5. Churches are useing Robert Schuller and Rick Warren as men to follow when trying to grow their churches.
etc......"
Actually, Satan loves your illogic. Look at point one. How can they be entertainment centers without teaching the tithe?
NC giving is to other believers in need and to those 'going out' to deliver the Gospel. There is nothing about buildings, salaries, etc.
Look at YOUR point 4. How does a church become 'like a business' without money? How do they get money? Teaching a "tithe".
If they were teaching the truth they would tell you to help your brothers and sisters in need and to support those on missions. (True missions not the "rice" missions"
It is NOT divisive to study the Word. It is only divisive to you because you don't agree. Your tithing for years does not prove it is taught in the NC. Perhaps your ego could not stand finding that truth out.
Anon 10:56 PM
ReplyDeleteTotally agree with your assessment. However the way tithing is being preached today is part of 2. Minimizing the Gospel
As far as division is concerned, a drive down almost any street in America would show that unity was never a part of God’s plan for the present age.
Someone said local pastors is actually a pagan thing. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteI also heard recently that church steeples are a pagan thing.
January 26, 2011 10:02 AM
The practice of "orators" on a stage in church started when Constantine converted the pagan temples to churches. The pagans had "orators" who would stand behind a "pulpit" and speak to the crowds.
It was simply adapted for Christianity and called the biblical term "preacher" which today is erroneously called "pastor".
Steeples were also pagan in that they were constructed to worship the sun and part of some pagan temples.
ReplyDeleteAltars also come from the pagan temple. In the 4th century they simply adapted these things to Christianity.
Today we think they are biblical because so many are ignorant of the Word. So, we worship buildings, men who speak behind pulpits and other traditions that have nothing to do with Christ...who had no where to lay His head.
"When we stand on our covenant with God and exercise our rights as tithers, we lay a foundation for success and abundance. Satan has no chance against us."
ReplyDeleteThis statement promotes both a prosperity gospel and a works salvation. The covenant that you speak of is the OT covenant. We are living under the NT covenant today. Free will giving is the model in 2 Corinthians 9: 7. "
Thanks for your response to this unbelievable false teaching. How can folks look at saints in prison suffering for the Gospel and believe such heresy? Perhaps they need to visit Voice of the Martyrs.
"In addition, what you are saying doesn't work out in practical terms. Some of the most vial sinners are multi-billionaires today. Some of God's greatest saints have taken a vow of poverty and frankly are better off for it."
Yes, this teaching would make George Soros a saint and Lottie Moon a lost person because she starved to death in order to feed others.
People just do not know the Word. They listen to humans, instead.
Some on this thread have not studied the book of Job. They sound like Job's friends who insisted Job must have sinned to bring on all his woes.
ReplyDeleteDespite their pagan origins, steeples developed a practical use:
ReplyDeleteDuring the Middle Ages, steeples stopped being merely decorative reminders of pagan pasts and became functional as the housing for church bells. By the 15th century, most churches had steeples with bells, which were rung on the hour and to announce religious ceremonies and holidays. The steeple traveled with settlers to America. There, too, the steeple housed bells and was one of the few decorations on church buildings not removed for the sake of plainness in early American religious life.
Read more: What Is the Origin of Church Steeples? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5052101_origin-church-steeples.html#ixzz1C9za1PKx
ANON 11:38:
ReplyDeleteThe Voice of the Martyrs, serving with the Persecuted Church, is really a good suggestions for bloggers to search out. The USA Christians are so spoiled and untaught about the persecution of those who just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - the emphasize on money turns my stomach, particularly from those in the pulpit who have a lifestyle that reflects a hunger for their flock to fork over more.
Thanks, everyone, for the info on altars, steeples, local preachers, etc. I truly was not aware of the history of all this.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, does anyone know how Muslims handle the money part? I know the Mormons check up you and expect you to give a certain amount (I think.) I think the Jehovah's Witnesses do too. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Actually groups like that seem more dignified than having a preacher up there ranting and raving like an out-of-control parent about shaming you into giving more money. I mean, where's the dignity?
Lynn
Actually groups like that seem more dignified than having a preacher up there ranting and raving like an out-of-control parent about shaming you into giving more money. I mean, where's the dignity?
ReplyDeleteLynn, Pastors should be taking on the real tough issues of this day and any other day that matter to Jesus in. instead they are nothing but spoiled chuldren.
"Take a break friends. Satan is having a field day here. Divide and conquer is his ever plan."
ReplyDeleteUnity at the expense of truth is not a Christian principle. It comes from the culture.
"I've tithed for many rears"
LOL!
"and could care less whether others do."
You don't care that other brothers are robbing God in your view and being cursed financially? How callous and uncaring.
"I see tithing in God's word so I tithe."
You see it in the OT. We are under the new covenant. You tithe because your pastor tells you to and you can't interpret scripture correctly for yourself.
"Giving is between you and the Lord."
Then why is the pastor at most Baptist churches screaming to give more money if that is the case?
"I hope we can get off this subject and get on to the other issues that are destroying the local church."
You mean like ignorant pew sitters that worship the pastor and can't interpret scripture correctly for themselves? That is a huge problem!
"1. Making churches entertainment venues.
2. Minimizing the Gospel
3. No visitation
4. Churches are becoming businesses.
5. Churches are useing Robert Schuller and Rick Warren as men to follow when trying to grow their churches."
I believe that WD has already dealt with most of the issues.
This is a common reaction in today's culture. When someone is faced with an uncomfortable issue where they might actually be forced to re-evaluate their tradition based on scripture, they declare that it is time to move on instead of doing the hard work required.
There is a giant problem in most Baptist churches today. Holding on to an Old Covenant law because of tradition. It's going to take a very long time to undo that damage.
Only after that is accomplished, can we move on.
"I hope we can get off this subject and get on to the other issues that are destroying the local church."
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should ask your preacher to do the same thing.
It's strange that you don't have a problem with the head pastor talking about pagans giving to a moon god from the pulpit instead of delivering the Gospel - but you do have a problem with WD reacting to it.
Maybe if your pastor set the example and moved on himself, others would follow.
What would you say are the chances of that happening?
"This is a common reaction in today's culture. When someone is faced with an uncomfortable issue where they might actually be forced to re-evaluate their tradition based on scripture, they declare that it is time to move on instead of doing the hard work required."
ReplyDeleteClinton used that same excuse to his advantage during the 90's.
The truth is they don't want to bother to think or study for themselves. Laziness. It is much easier to follow man' teachings. One does not have to work at it.
Christans do thithe thank you, we pay our respects to the ONLY true god.All the other people who do sacrafices and thithes to the false gods and godesses are wasteing their time.so its not the same!!!
ReplyDeleteWould be good to see FBCJaxWatchdog do an expose on David Chapman, pastor of The River Ministries. ( www.theriverministries.net )
ReplyDeleteYeah, his is not a megachurch, but he is deceiving people. Do a search for tithes on his page. LOL
One such lie is that "If you tithe, you will have the power to rebuke satan off of your finances." Yeah, right. LOL
Be blessed, Bro's. And keep up the good work!