"...we believe that those who teach and preach the word of God are God-appointed agents to save God's people from ignorance." Al MohlerAl Mohler preached the Sunday night 1/30 sermon at the 2011 FBC Jax Pastor's Conference. The title of his sermon was "Endurance of the Christian Mind". Very good sermon from Romans about the importance of Christian intellect - as Mohler says "thinking precedes doing, knowing precedes action". He has some very interesting comments about what researchers are calling the prevalent religion in our culture: moralistic, therapeutic deism (MTD) the Mohler has written about in the past. You can click here to go watch the sermon and hear the music (see my comment at the end about the music).
But Mohler is preaching primarily to preachers at the conference, and when you hear preachers preaching to other preachers, you might expect to learn some things about how they view themselves and their profession and their role in Christianity - especially when it is one of their premier scholars doing the preaching.
In his summary at the end, Mohler offers three important "understandings" for the pastors on this matter of endurance of the Christian mind.
The first one on the list, and presumably the most important one is that the main way that God keeps Christian people from slipping into sin and ignorance is the preachers' sermons. He says:
"The main means by which God saves his people from ignorance is the preaching and teaching of the word of God. That's why a conference like this is so important. It's not just because we think of the pastorate as a profession set along side other professions so that we can gather together for a little professional encouragement to go out a be a little better at what we do.
No, we're here because we believe that those who teach and preach the word of God are God-appointed agents to save God's people from ignorance. "
This sort of thinking by one of the premier Christian thinkers in modern evangelicalism helps lay people like us understand why pastors view themselves as specially-anointed Christians, with extra insights into scripture because they have been assigned by God to holding an "office" that gives them special rule and authority over other Christians.
The premise: we lay folk are woefully ignorant and we tend to move toward ignorance, but the pastors, the "pastorate" - they are wise and anointed. We are stupid sheep, they are learned scholars whose feet we must sit at to fully understand the Bible and what it means to be a Christian.
I thought that the one time "pastor" was used in the New Testament in Ephesians 4:11 (where it is used in plural form, to indicate that it is not an office but a gift that multiple people in a church exercise) it meant "shepherd" - now I know it means "saver of the plebe from their own ignorance". Notice Mohler describes it as a "profession" - it never was intended as that in the Bible, as even Paul was not a professional pastor. Mohler even uses the word "pastorate" making "pastor" an office, and it just ain't so. It ain't even in da Greek.
But Mohler continues...
"So don't stand in the pulpit if you're not going to preach and teach the word of God. Life and death, heaven and hell, hang in the balance. "
Yes, to be in the pulpit and teach sound doctrine is important. But one of the problems in modern Christianity is that we tend to put TOO MUCH weight on the words of a guy in a robe or a suit (or a Hawaiian shirt) with a bible in his hand. No, heaven and hell don't hang in the balance when you're in the pulpit, pastor. Get over yourself and your sermons. The message should be to pastors: stop telling fantastic flowery stories of yourself and your life in the pulpit. Stop the exaggerations (Caner). Stop misusing scripture and stop brow-beating people into doing what you want from the pulpit - like giving money to build your building or support your ministry. Just teach the Bible, and be honest in the pulpit and don't lie and don't use your pulpit for your own selfish interests or to promote your family or your Holy Land trips or to go after your critics.
But Mohler ratchets it up...
"If you do not preach and teach the word of God, if you do not faithfully teach the word of God such that your people hear it and understand it and grow upon it they are consigned to unfaithfulness and many will be consigned to hell. "Wow. Us lay folk, us church attenders - our very faithfulness, in fact our very eternal destiny hangs in the balance when a man gets in the pulpit to preach. He better preach the word of God "faithfully" - code word for the doctrine that Mohler and the baptists believe - or us common folk will all be unfaithful and some of us will go to hell. Or worse, we might all end up blogging, egads!
So it is quite apparent that these preachers believe that we really can't fully understand the Bible or function properly as Christians to the point we can grow, UNLESS we put ourselves under their "faithful preaching". Unbelievable. This just is not true, and it is not supported in any way in scripture.
But it doesn't stop there. Mohler continues:
"We ought to be yearning to get from sermon to sermon preaching with such vigor and such energy and such faithfullness and such convinction that the people who hear our preaching also can't wait to get back sermon from sermon to sermon. God's people are those who recognize THEY CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT THIS! "
Ironically, God's people are those who are in increasing numbers realizing they CAN live without "this", - the preacher's sermons and bible interpretations and brow-beatings and in some cases spiritual abuse. Many church members are leaving churches with pastors who hold to this view of themselves, and they are finding churches where the pastor is a humble shepherd. Many people are starting home churches where they meet with other believers who exercise their gifts of being pastors and teachers to help people live the Christian life. They realize they can live without forking over 10% of their income to a church system that exists primarily to pay professional ministers and to build and maintain buildings.
And you know what, Al Mohler? These people are not at all ignorant - and in fact they realize just how ignorant they had become in many ways in their churchianity and in their following of their pastor. They now can begin to grow by concentrating on what the bible says, and not what they were taught it says by their pastor.
I've said it before: if this is the thinking of typical SBC pastors and it is what they are learning about their profession at seminary - no wonder they are so absolutely frustrated and leave their profession in growing numbers. How hard it must be to love church members when they listen to your magical sermons and are still so woefully ignorant. No wonder they can't stand criticism and want "troublemakers" thrown out of church. No wonder they view themselves as the rulers in the church through whom God gives the vision and others must follow. No wonder they are incredibly frustrated when people don't obey and tithe.
Lastly, I want to say to the FBC Jax choir and orchestra and Jim Whitmire - some incredible music you provided to the pastors. Whitmire is doing a great job and FBC Jax choir and orchestra are in peak form. I especially recommend that WD readers go and listen to the duet performed by Baron Rice and Jonathan Welch just before Mohler's sermon entitled "My Heart Belongs to You". Rice sings the voice of God, Welch the voice of Adam. I've never heard that song, and these two young men who both grew up at FBC Jax, and the orchestra, did an incredible job.
"No, we're here because we believe that those who teach and preach the word of God are God-appointed agents to save God's people from ignorance. "
ReplyDelete===============================
Well this now helps me understand why a six (6) figure salary is paid to mega pastors. . .to save God's people from ignorance.
If one has daily devotions the Word saves one from ignorance, not "God- appointed Agents" It's my understanding that all believers are appointed to serve in their area of expertise.
Our law enforcement are appointed to save the people as well, but with a starting salary around $35,000.
These preachers, like this one truly believe they are a level above the people who sit in the pews when it comes to scripture. I truly believe the modern day "appointed" ones are in a downfall.
Thanks WD for the post - good insight!
What an utterly arrogant statement. Very close to a Catholic view of the role of the preacher.
ReplyDeleteStudy the Word, know the Word, and think for yourself, believers! Let pastors strengthen your walk with Christ, but don't become totally dependent on them for your biblical knowledge or how to live your life.
We have a "sinner's prayer" for the sinner to "accept Jesus" as their "personal Lord and Savior".
ReplyDeleteSo should we have an "ignoramous prayer" for the ignorant person to "accept Pastor" as their "personal savior from a state of ignorance"?
Here is a suggested prayer, using the word "Pastor" as a personal pronoun as so many are apt to do these days "I was talking to Pastor the other day..."
Anyways, the prayer:
"Dear Lord, I thank you for Pastor. For sending Pastor to me, to save me from my ignorance. I right now accept Pastor into my life, and will listen to his sermons week after week so that I may be kept from my tendancy to be ignorant and so that I can understand the Bible. Thank you Lord. Right now, on the authority of Al Mohler, I know that I am freed from the bonds of ignorance forever more for my devotion to Pastor."
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)
I have come to the sad conclusion that each person reading The Word for themselves is MUCH, MUCH better than listening to pastors. There is LOT of BAAAAAD teaching being taught in pulpits in most baptist churches. Listening to some of these preachers will twist your head up. It is much safer and saner to read The Word for by themselves, than listening to the twisting of The Word to suit the preachers fancies.
ReplyDeleteThat said, there are GOOD preachers who teach The Word correctly. I would encourage each of us to search out these pastors/teachers.
Be Bereans.
Yes, Watchdog, I can testify from many years of personal experience that this is exactly what people are being taught about "the pastorate" at seminaries.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's my personal opinion that this thinking about the role of the pastor, among pastors and non-pastors, is a big part of what's wrong with American Churchianity.
Anon 10:29 - that is an incredibly arrogant statement.
ReplyDeleteI try to think in what other profession would someone who is charged with helping, guiding, teaching someone else, stand up and declare that their job is to "save people from their ignorance"
Grade school teacher? You save people from their ignorance?
Politician - that would go over, wouldn't it...I'm here to save you from your ignorance.
Architect - hi, I'm here to help you design your building, because you're so darned ignorant.
It is too funny. I guess I might liken the preacher who feels this way to the liberal politician. They don't trust the average guy on the street. He's too ignorant to know what is best for him or society, and they are in need of politicians. Politicians don't really do anything, they tell other people what they should do, and they tell them they need more of their money.
Sounds an awful lot like many preachers today.
...and I scream AMEN!!!!! I haven't been to FBC in three weeks. We have been having "home church" with fellow believers and I'm so less stressed out. I haven't had to leave the campus mad and have been listening to sermons that would never be preached in a SBC building. We are listening to a pastor who isn't in a tax-exempt church and can tell it like it is. Needing a "preacher" to interpret God's Word leaves out the work of the Holy Spirit, and is a Catholic doctrine. Hard times are coming and it's time to get serious about our faith. You won't hear a word about this at FBC...they aren't preparing believers for reality and it will be very harsh.
ReplyDeleteRead the Word People!
ReplyDeleteWe all like sheep will go astray..
Heb 13:17 says OBEY those that have rule over you.."
Your Pastor helps you recieve the blessings of God.
A Pastor watches out for your soul.
A Pastor is responsible for your Spiritual Growth.
This is ALL IN THE WORD!!
You may not like it, YOU may reject it, YOU may not like your Pastor....BUT HE HAS AUTHORITY OVER YOU!
Please don't react to the previous post. Obviously the person doesn't really believe this, just trying to provoke. But I do love it when people demonstrate absurdity by being absurd.
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:02 You have been drinking too much Kool Aid.
ReplyDeleteMaybe a pastor is like a middle-man. He's there to interpret the Bible correctly for you, so you don't have to bother studying it yourself. He can let you know what God is wanting you to do. Of course his interpretation could be incorrect, so instead of uninformed, you'd be misinformed.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds like he's seen the writing on the wall like in other industries where things change, and the middle-man is no longer needed. Then he's out of a job.
Imagine how the Catholic Church must have felt when the printing press came along, and more and more people learned to read. What a threat to their power!
In returning to my Baptist roots a couple times, I noticed that those preachers are really big on attending church services. I grew up thinking it was a great sin to not go on Sunday night and Wednesday night.
So, the preacher enjoys preaching and expounding his interpretations from the Bible, but all that is actually unnecessary. If the most important thing is that something is from the Bible, then simply read the Bible. There are TONS of websites, books, commentaries to help you.
But, people are generally lazy and don't usually study a lot on their own. So his job is not as insecure as it should be.
You might want to figure out what exactly he's criticizing in this message. Is it something like the Osteen preachers that he considers unbiblical? He needs to define what he means exactly by ignorance. And what messages you should hear so as to no longer be ignorant.
Since he's talking to preachers, what is the real message he's giving them? I'm trying to figure that out.
Some other statements:
ReplyDelete"Bloggers are God-appointed agents to save church members from their pastors"
"Church members are God-appointed agents to save the pastor from his own arrogance"
Any others?
God is my refuge, my fortress. We as priests (priesthood of the believer) share the responsibility of sharing the gospel. Much more importantly, we are commanded of God to "study to show thyself approved of God a worker that needeth not to be ashamed". How is it possible that another member of the priesthood of believers, responsible to the body of Christ, and at the same time is in a paid position within the church, carries out the duty of a servant of God almighty in two or three twenty minute discourses per week. This servant many times, delivers sermons(?), the majority of which has very little to do with the Bible. Oddly, they seem to have more to do with history, felt needs, some experience, or book they just recently read. Often pleas for money to advance "who's" agenda? How do these earthly "works" purport to be the work of the Holy Spirit? I suggest that all pastors take as their guide John the Baptist "I must decrease and He must increase".
ReplyDeletelol!
ReplyDeleteFBC Jax Watchdog,
Your last post made me think of the 3 branches of government-
the President
the Congress
the Supreme Court
The pastors are Andy Griffiths.
ReplyDeleteWe're all Barney Fifes.
Lynn, you need to get saved. You obviously haven't read the Bible in a long time, you're ignorance is very apparent.
ReplyDeleteThy Peace, God gave us Pastors/Teachers (Ephesians 4) to help us mature....it's also very apparent that you are not listening very well.
Junkster, are you an expert on Seminaries? Most are incredibly effective, try sticking with subjects that you know something about instead of embarrassing yourself. (again)
Dog, you should be ashamed of leading these children astray.
God have mercy on you all.
I'm sorry, Pastor.
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me, Pastor. I know not what I do.
Please teach me your ways, Pastor, so that I can walk in the right way and won't be so ignorant of the ways of God.
I will now go and say 100 Hail Mohlers for my pennance.
"Hail Mohler, full of wisdom, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst pastors, and blessed is the fruit of thy seminary. Holy Pastor, Man of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
As a pastor with over 50 yrs pastoring baptist churches I am appalled that we are at a place where clebrity is more important than servanthood. I no longer participate in our association. I love our young pastors, but they seem anamoured with the mega-church syndrome. I don't like to say it, having pastored sbc churhes for yrs, but if I was loojing to start a new work it would be independent.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:20,
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly familiar with the Bible. Which parts do I seem to be ignorant of?
The part that says you must obey your pastors, and that they are God's appointed agents to save us from ignorance.
ReplyDeleteBut I'm not very familiar with that part either, so don't worry.
Ps 19:1 "Lord thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations". We as saved people serve God and must look only to Him for instruction, guidance and comfort in all matters dealing with scripture. A pastor is no more likely to find meaning than any other believer and in some cases is so far removed from being a believer himself. Some get caught up in the possesion of admiration, adoration, and praise while others look for the prosperity gospel that comes from large congregations and they become no longer fit for the furtherance of the gospel. 2:01 anon. Thank God for servants of God like you, however they are becoming more scarce day by day.
ReplyDeleteSomeone upthread mentioned "priesthood of the believer." When the BF&M 2000 was written Mohler was said to have been the one (or the main one) who claimed that "priesthood of the believer (singular)" left too much room for individual interpretation. Instead of deleting that wording from the new version, a compromise was reached in which the new wording became "priesthood of the believers." This is a subtle but very important distinction. No longer are you, as an individual, entitled to interpret the Bible as you feel led by the Holy Spirit. Rather, it's now the concensus of the "believers" (i.e. the interpretation of TPTB in the SBC) that determines what you are to believe, and if you don't go along with their interpretation, you are out. This sounds eerily like the Catholic church. Just ask these Georgia Baptist congregations.
ReplyDeleteAnd look at what Paige Patterson and SWBTS are trying to do to the Tarrant Baptist Association right now.
"God is no respector of persons"!!! There are going to be quite a number of surprises when God hands out His rewards. Mother Theresa will be far out front of a great number of popes, bishops, pastors, and priests. Country preachers that no one ever heard of will be right behind her, especially those that had little wealth or sought it but clung to the old rugged cross. There will be some widows who never stood in a pulpit but fasted and prayed for years for their relatives, friends, and neighbors. They actually reached out and touched someone in time of need unlike some of the bigshot preachers who found it beneath them to visit in the hospitals or homes of their members who were not rich or had an elevated position in their community or to even those whom they disagreed.
ReplyDeleteEverything Mohler says here is okay - if it is describing "The Word of God".
ReplyDeleteIt encompasses preaching and it must always encompass the role of the Presbuteros, but it is not limited to it.
One important area is the Bible reading habits of ordinary Christians (something which I need to improve on). In this we see The Word in action, we see the Spirit in action, but we don't see the Presbuteros in action.
Is Mohler consigning the Word of God and thus the means of Grace to a select few? As the second comment here pointed out, a very Roman Catholic view.
Then again, I don't expect much from Mohler anyway - he thinks drinking alcohol is sinful but supports the torture of terrorist suspects.
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ReplyDeleteAnonymous February 12, 2011 1:20 PM said...
ReplyDeleteJunkster, are you an expert on Seminaries?
Yes, I am.
Most are incredibly effective,
Yes, they are effective at many things, especially at promoting the concept that pastors are more special than other Christians.
try sticking with subjects that you know something about instead of embarrassing yourself. (again)
Thanks for the concern, but I don't mind embarrassing myself (again). Do you mind embarrassing yourself by insinuating something that isn't true (i.e., that I don't know anything about seminaries)?
God have mercy on you all.
I hope he has mercy on us all. (Note the difference it makes when you include yourself in statements like that.)
This sarcastic hatred goes far beyond disagreements, and has no place in any form of Christian dialogue.
ReplyDeleteTo outright deny, or reject the Biblical call of a pastor demonstrates the degree of insane thinking in the minds of some people.
It is one thing, to reject a particular man, and question a particular individual's calling and use of calling. To deny that a calling exists altogether is Biblically ignorant, spiritually defiant, and reflective of a flesh filled faith.
Disagreeing with Mohler's theology is one thing. Defying the call of pastor based on a mob mentality is what is absurd.
Let the Lord rebuke . . .
Best post yet WD! People are finally waking up to these arrogant potentates. My problem is how to limit my remarks on this subject. I could go on for hours. It does say something about these "anointed ones", that are such "mega miracles". How successful are they in saving us all from spiritual ignorance, if we (as many do) stay in their churches for years and years and (according to them) remain spiritually ignorant! In my opinion the only ones that are truly spiritually ignorant are those that fall for this tripe and who stay and stay and keep feeding the problem.
ReplyDeleteMany suffer in and from the "Mega Church Syndrome" it's a sickness!
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ReplyDeleteThat's the second blanket "rebuke" I've witnessed today. Shall we go for three?
ReplyDeleteDog:
ReplyDeleteWhat Mohler says is fine.
What you have interpreted his meaning to be is not, obviously.
I cannot think of one thing in your interpretive comments that Mohler endorses or says.
If he has said such things, I would appreciate your posting where he has said it. I am serious. If Mohler says the things that you said, that would be terrible. And I would want to know about that.
I consider myself a fairly educated person and Christian, and I do see value in the role of an elder and a teacher in the NT church. The existence of those roles presuppose those who need and overseer and those who need knowledge. My experience shows me that there there are both types in the church, and that God gave gifts for these things to help people.
I consider myself one of those people. I am grateful for God's undershepherds and for those who know more than I do and have their lives and hours dedicated to that.
I bet all of us can think back in our experiences to a time when God used the pastor of a church in a really special way in our lives. I am grateful for faithful pastors and those experiences in my life.
I do not appreciate poor preaching or poor leadership. This sermon is not an excuse for that.
Louis
Louis - I too consider myself fairly educated and a Christian, and I'm not sure what you are saying.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying my interpretation of Mohler's comments is wrong?
I have had maybe 5 pastors in my lifetime, and they all have been a blessing to me in many ways.
But I never, ever, one time considered them to be sent to me by God to save me from ignorance.
And with the exception of one of the five, I don't think they viewed themselves as God-appointed to save me from my ignorance. They mostly were just men who preached the Bible and loved me and my family with all our faults and failures.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteI get, and understand, your disdain for what you feel to be abusive preaching, and unbiblical leadership.
Nevertheless, you seem to be attempting to cut the legs out from under the role that "preaching" (preachers aside) but that the act of preaching has in the life of a believer.
Not trying to stir something needlelessly, I would be curious as to whether or not you would/could take Mohler to task on the role of "preaching" in the life of a believer 1.) From a textual point of view and 2.)without dealing with the preacher himself, but the act of preaching. 3.) With the assumption that the preaching is right preaching?
just a question - thanks
I'm sincerely wondering what ignorance Mohler would be thinking of? Does he think people don't know their Bible and doctrine, so they could be attracted to false teachers?
ReplyDeleteIs he afraid that they'll accept evolution or gays or something, so they must be reminded that that's not compatible with the Bible?
I'm just trying to figure out what he most likely is concerned about.
Hi Jeff - no, I'm not trying to undercut anything. Rather, it is Mohler undercutting the priesthood of the believer that we as baptists have understood is in scripture. We don't need a man to interpret the Bible. We have the Holy Spirit and the Bible, and we have fellow believers. I thought that was enough. Apparently not, according to Mohler. If we do not subject ourselves to the regular sermons in a church by a member of the "pastorate", we will all become unfaithful, and some of us will go to hell.
ReplyDeleteAs to your three questions, I don't completely understand what you're asking. I'm probably still a bit ignorant in some of these matters. I would rather put the onus on you to defend or refute what Mohler says. You are one of the "pastorate", the God-appointed ones, so I'll leave that to you to answer those three questions.
As a Baptist survivor of many years, I have seen many laymen who have more biblical knowledge and spiritual discernment than most of the preachers they have had to listen to.
ReplyDeleteSomeone mentionted in a previous blog., that "believers are appointed to serve in their areas of expertise". We believers are all given gifts and areas of service. Unless, that is you disagree or get on the wrong side of a pastor everyone should be able to exercise his/her gift.
The central question is whether or not the preacher or the layman truly believes in the Preisthood of the Believer. Many say they do when they don't act like it. And secretly don't truly believe it. To me this interfers with what Jesus has taught through His Bible. Jesus is the authority. He says He will bring unto rememberance His Word. We have the Holy Spirit within us to lead and to teach us. I think to be told we are too ignorant to know anything outside of what we are told by the pastor totally interfers with what the Word teaches. Pastors are men, like the rest of us that's all. It isn't preachers that are holy it is Jesus that is Holy!
ReplyDeleteOff Topic: NYT > The Dirty Little Secrets of Search.
ReplyDeleteSome of this was being done to build up Ergun Caner profile in Google searches too.
We can't live without hearing their sermons, sermon to sermon. Who would believe such nonsense. Makes one really desire to hear all these sermons just to realize that they really do not know the Bible anymore than most of us. "Many are called but few are chosen",out of context I know but apropos. You could study this verse for quite awhile, learning several facets of who is following God and who isn't.
ReplyDeleteIf a pastor is truly "called", the least thing he would brag about would be expounding God's Word as he didn't write it. Oh, I suppose we ignorant people do not know the Greek so we are incapable of learning the finer points of scripture.i.e, the fruit of the spirit, dispensations, picking up your cross and following Him, the seven baptisms, law vs grace, doctrine of once saved always saved, prayer, faith, Jewish vs gentile doctrine, blood atonement, law of first mention, law of the harvest, great tribulation, tense of the verb, etc, etc, etc. Really. I don't believe for one moment I need anyone else to be my teacher but the Holy Spirit and if one does he/she has been FOOLED!!! Pastors make theological mistakes quite often and some on a regular basis. I for one walk away from those that believe they know it all. Actually I have learned more from some excellent SS teachers more than some pastors in my lifetime. They would have you be ignorant brethren!!!!
I've enjoyed good sermons and sat thru lousy ones. My husband HATES alliteration. I've heard lots of that.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the purpose of a sermon, in a preacher's mind? There's got to be more to it than the Bible, else they could just get up there and read a chapter to us.
I'd still love for a preacher on here to tell me what they think Mohler is worried about. Is he worried that people will drift into accepting worldly ideas if they are not hammered thrice weekly with the truth from the Bible? If that's his point, fine. I just want to understand it.
And if that's it, I could put the most negative spin on it and say that's like indoctrination. You must hear something over and over and over-every time the doors are open-then you'll be indoctrinated well. Or you could see that as a positive thing-like getting a vaccination of truth from the Bible, so you won't get infected by the world.
WHY can't pastors just be humble and let God keep count of the things they have accomplished? WHERE is the humblest of today's pastors?
ReplyDeleteDL Moody would never survive in this modern today's baptist world. He being poor in grammar would have been a target of today's professional baptist preachers. God used Moody because he was humble, not because he was superior in knowledge and eloquence. And what about Spurgon who was a chain-cigar smoker? He would been cut in the throat for his destroying the "temple." But yet, our famous baptist preachers destroy their "temples" with the fork, knife, and spoon.
I'm fed up with the professional preachers. Just give me humble Christians and my soul will be just fine.
It is reprehensible for pastors to believe their role is to save us from ignorance.
ReplyDeleteIt is even more so for us to give pastors that kind of power.
No one who has the Holy Spirit, a Bible and a brain need ever be ignorant.
I ask again: "to Save His People from Ignorance" Ignorance of WHAT?!
ReplyDeleteOne of the great heros of the Christian faith Dr Homer Lindsay Jr passed from this life to eternal life 11 years ago today. He was one truly born to pastor and loved Jesus Christ and remained humble throughout his ministry. We could use a few more like him in our day and times.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to the idea of the pastor as shepherd? Where is the idea of going after the lost sheep rather than brow beating them?
ReplyDeleteWhere is the humility that if the preacher leads some astray, that they will have to answer to Christ for their actions?
My favorite title of the Pope is "Servant of the Servants of God."
"No, we're here because we believe that those who teach and preach the word of God are God-appointed agents to save God's people from ignorance. "
ReplyDeleteWell, who needs the Holy Spirit, when one has a professional "pastor"?
"I have come to the sad conclusion that each person reading The Word for themselves is MUCH, MUCH better than listening to pastors"
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely! Jesus said He sent us the BEST TEACHER: The Holy Spirit. No human can provide the function. In fact, you are kept in ignorance by only listening to pastors.
"Heb 13:17 says OBEY those that have rule over you.."
ReplyDeleteThat means anyone who joined Jim Jones' church could not leave or be in sin.
"I consider myself a fairly educated person and Christian, and I do see value in the role of an elder and a teacher in the NT church. The existence of those roles presuppose those who need and overseer and those who need knowledge. My experience shows me that there there are both types in the church, and that God gave gifts for these things to help people."
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone remember old Louis claiming he had no plans to ever work for or be involved any SBC entity? He said that back in March of 2010. Then we find out he is involved with an SBTS foundation...on the board, I think.
We caught him in a bald faced lie. Louis is more like Mohler than some understand. And many who have worked close to Mohler know he is a tyrant.
Here is one link...look for Marshall Louis Albritton
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/ir/SSF.pdf
Now, scroll to the bottom of this link and look who is an elder!
http://www.gccnashville.org/about/staffleaders.aspx
Here is the BP article that names him as being appointed to the SBTS Foundation:
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=32362
These guys are deceptive. Gotta watch that Louis...he is a lawyer and real good at twisting things. And a big fan of Mohlers.
"I cannot think of one thing in your interpretive comments that Mohler endorses or says."
ReplyDeleteThis is always my favorite defense. It is a standard with the SBTS types. The speaker did not mean what they said and we did not understand them. See, they are so brilliant that us ignoramouses cannot possibly understand the true meaning of their words.
People do this with Bruce Ware and Russell Moore all the time. We can never understand their actual words.
Dear WD:
ReplyDeleteNow I know you have not been sneaking into FBC by your statement about the music! There are some exceptions, but for the most part, the music has taken a turn for the worse.
Under Mr. Whitmire's reign we have gone from the best choir and orchestra to only average. Many choir members have left because of this.
For the most part, his choice of music is poor to say the least. It has taken a very liberal turn and is not nearly as uplifting as it was before he came.
I hear almost exactly the same words from many who have left and even some who are still here at FBC.
Sadly, watchdog the only Bible interaction the typical churchgoer gets is what comes from the pulpit. This has been supported by numerous research studies of the Christian (not just baptist) church in America. This makes a well prepared biblically accurate sermon more important in church. The disappointing fact is most people don't care enough to take the time or expend the energy to read much less dig in the Bible for the truth of the whole council of God. It's not that pastors look down on laymen we love the ones who are true disciples of Christ and help in the work of the church not just churchgoers trying to exert their power
ReplyDeleteWD,
ReplyDeleteThis is the only post you've put with which I disagree. I watched all 92 minutes of the service. Yes, the music was awesome. I've sung under the direction of Steve Caudill at Pastor David Jeremiah's church (Shadow Mountain Community Church). Steve is known for his demand for excellence in his musicians and the FBC JAX choir seemed absolutely on par with them. It was very uplifting in all respects. The Gaithers came to our church to perform with us. That’s how good the choir was.
I didn't interpret Al Mohler as being some kind of self-serving elitist to the church. I understand that he was speaking to mostly Pastors. What I heard was that we need to be preaching the gospel more than some system of beliefs that are riddled with easy believism. He used the analogy of teaching mature food to their congregants instead of those preaching milk. Yes, Mohler is right because without teaching solid food, you get the Joel Osteens of the world. Mohler also spoke of the primary teachers of the true gospel is laid upon the shoulders of Godly parents, and then he admonishes individual believers to take responsibility for learning of the solid food. I didn’t hear him say that only seminary trained Pastors would be eligible to teach from the pulpit. Nor did I ever hear that he thinks those in the pulpit are the only people who should preach. It’s just not there. We know that Mohler teams up with other long-term ministries. One such person is C J Mahaney who has never gone to college.
Sorry Tom. I hold you in great esteem for your willingness to call a spade and spade, and your courage for taking on the establishment. We need thousands more just like you.
God Bless
Have you ever just sat down and had a casual chat with any pastors,(or several Baptist pastors like I did and.... not just yours), outside of their church comfy settings?
ReplyDeleteI have spoken with many and brothers and sisters it is frightening what comes out of the mouths of these men when you get them one on one.
You really would understand why the Baptist denomination is dying if you ever could get some one on one time and conversations with some of the "anointed ones."
I do!
I am so glad I dusted my feet from the term " Baptist"
What a mess......what a mess...
Anon 2:02 - wow, that is quite a shock. I thought they sounded great over the Internet. Loved Welch's and Rice's duet, and I never heard anyone complain about Whitmire's leadership of the music.
ReplyDeleteJonathan 2:11 - so are pastors really "God-appointed agents to save people from their ignorance"? Is it true that this is God's intention for the "pastorate"?
Katie - thanks for your kind disagreement. I do see your points. But I take his words literally, and I believe he said what he meant in point #1 of his sermon summary stating that pastors are God's appointed agents to keep people from sliding toward unfaithfulness. To hear this coming from the #1 SBC scholar is disturbing, and knowing pastors there were lapping it up makes it even more disturbing.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIf you knew Mohler up close and personal and were not a sychophant as we see most are at SBTS, you would never say such a thing.
ReplyDeleteAre you familiar with the ESS doctrine taught at SBTS? Are you familiar that SBTS is teaching that comps are wimps and we need more Patriarchy?
The wannabe pastors SBTS is churning out are little robots who have been indoctrinated that they are specially anointed. Many are teaching heresy with ESS and totally ignoring the Holy Priesthood which scares them to death because it takes away their power. Did you know Mohler tried to get the "Priesthood of Believer" taken OUT of the BFM 2000? Thank God he did not win that fight.
You have not lived until you have worked close enough with Mohler to see him throw one of his famous fits. He is most definitely elitist.
So, let me get this straight. Mohler says that pastors are God Appointed Agents to save his people from ignorance.
ReplyDeleteDoes he make any distinctions? ALL pastors are God appointed? Even the pastor of the Baptist church in my city who teaches that homosexuality is not sin? How about Creflo Dollar? Jeremiah Wright?
Now, who gets to decide which "pastors" are the right ones? The title does not seem to tell us anything.
What about Mac teaching tithing and you are robbing God if you do not tithe 10%? That is TEACHING IGNORANCE to people since the tithe is a tax for the Old Covenant and it was not even 10%. That is "God Appointed"? I think not.
We have a problem. We must all become Bereans because ther are many fake teachers out there. Some mean well but teach what they have been taught or teach what benefits them. How could they help it? Their entire existence depends on having followers willing to pony up the money to keep them. (They are really kept men when you think about it)
And WD, you are right to point out that pastor is mentioned once in the NT and it is a function in the Body. There is nothing to prove we are meant to listen to one guy week after week. The reason preaching is front and center is because the Reformers replaced sacraments with preaching. A step in the right direction but I think we should strive for more 1 Corin 14 style where several speak and others judge. It would keep a lot of false and twisted scripture out.
The problem is this has become a paid profession whether in the state church or now, in the business we call a church.
Mohler needs it to be because that is his claim to fame and how he makes a living...producing pastors.
"Sadly, watchdog the only Bible interaction the typical churchgoer gets is what comes from the pulpit. This has been supported by numerous research studies of the Christian (not just baptist) church in America."
ReplyDeleteNow, "pastor", there is your first clue that someone may not be really saved.
" This makes a well prepared biblically accurate sermon more important in church."
No, it means you are not "pastoring" in the first place.
"The disappointing fact is most people don't care enough to take the time or expend the energy to read much less dig in the Bible for the truth of the whole council of God."
HELLO! It is a clue they are not really saved or if they are they are not being sanctified. Wake up!
" It's not that pastors look down on laymen we love the ones who are true disciples of Christ and help in the work of the church not just churchgoers trying to exert their power."
In other words: Know your place and don't get uppity with the anointed ones. (The paid anointed ones)
"Have you ever just sat down and had a casual chat with any pastors,(or several Baptist pastors like I did and.... not just yours), outside of their church comfy settings?
ReplyDeleteI have spoken with many and brothers and sisters it is frightening what comes out of the mouths of these men when you get them one on one."
This is why blogs and the internet has been so great. We are getting to see first hand just how arrogant and isolated they really are.
They live in a bubble and are paid to be arrogant and to think of themselves as specially anointed. It really is sad for them.
It would be interesting to see many of them have to report to a real job sometime with a boss like them. :o)
WD:
ReplyDeleteA direct result of the CR is a God-appointed agent as a pastor and not a servant.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteI fully admit that I don't know much about Al Mohler. It's my understanding that he started The Founders within the SBC as a devotion to his Calvinistic beliefs. In fact I think I've only heard his name in connection with other Calvinsts. So I acquiesce to your knowledge about him. I just didn't see what you did.
On the music, Anon 2:02 I'm thinking he might be one of the folks who has resisted Contemporary Christian music. The FBCJ Choir, orchestra and soloists were outstanding. The mix of contemporary, gospel, and classical genres was superb.
In His Amazing Grace.......
I'm afraid that I have to agree with anon. 2:02 post about the quality of music since Rev, Whitmire took over as music director after Rodney left to go to Charles Stanleys church. I've been a member since 94 and I remember the quality of soloist we had. One thing that I have noticed is that ever since Rodney left we don't have the quartets come to sing at our church like we use to(The Hoppers,Greater Vision,etc.). I always enjoyed hearing these groups especially at the end of the year when Rodney always had a special sing with different groups coming in. I sure miss the lighthouse we had set up in the auditorium and Rodney would sing the lighthouse song and toward the end of the song the beacon would come on and start rotating.
ReplyDeleteFor those of you who are long time members of First Baptist,have visited First Baptist, or have never been to First Baptist, If you go to youtube, type into the top "chip dorton" it will bring up about 9 videos of our choir and chip along with other videos from years ago, some even from past pastors conferences. That way you will see what great talent we had when Rodney was our choir director. I believe there is even the video of Rodney singing the lighthouse song.
ReplyDeleteFolks, Al Mohler, message and methodology are not new. They are the same songs, with different verses from the old Pharisee hymnbook. Our Lord dealt with that during his life and ministry. If Baptists would spend a bit more time reading the Gospels and a bit less listening to Al, Mac, Johnny, and Page, they might recover something of the "joy of salvation." Instead of being enslaved by the ramblings of those "leaders," claim the freedom of the "priesthood of the believer." That is one of the most important of all Baptist principles, regardless of what Al Mohler says. After all, he ceased being an authentic Baptist a long time ago.
ReplyDeleteKatie
ReplyDeleteI would be careful with holding up CJ Mahaney as a decent example of a pastor without education. Please visit sgmsurvivors.com to get an understanding about this ministry which is racked with accusations of spiritual abuse. Mohler should not be associating with such an individual if these charges are to be believed.
Absolutely awesome post, WD.
ReplyDeleteI believe one of the most outstanding sermons of all time at the conference was Criswell's 1999 message on "Give Me That Old Time Religion". Here was a man around 90 years old that recognized after all of his years and experience it was that the true and only way to reach lost people for Jesus was to keep it simple. No marketing, no I-Mags, not acting, just the plain simple gospel. Until we get off this intellectual brain storming and arrogance, the church leaders are not fulfilling the Great Commission. They have brought forth another gospel...one which the 1st century Christians would not recognize.
ReplyDeleteThe current high exalted position and elevation of pastor is highly overrated within the Baptist denomination.
Dee,
ReplyDeletePerhaps I didn't phrase my sentence about CJ Mahaney as well as I should have. I don't know him and only looked at his website once. The ONLY reason I remembered CJ Mahaney was something John Piper said about Mahaney's education.
I knew that Mohler had some background of working together on the same type of ministry with Mahaney.
I only raised it because there was the implication that Pastors need more knowledge, seemingly Seminary mandated education. Mahaney doesn't qualify for a post high school education so it seemed inconsistent to demand that all Pastors have a Seminary education when Mohler obvious doesnt have a problem working with someone who doesn't have an advanced Graduate degree.
I have seen Mohler's name on other blogs and it always seemed to be connected to his Calvinistic beliefs. I've seen some people within SBC that detest the doctrines of grace. I had been under the impression that most of the angry rhetoric was aimed at Mohler because he is a Calvinist.
I thank you for the information. I'll take your suggestion and re-read the blog.
Blessings to you.
What is a Calvinistic preacher doing in the Baptist denomination? It reminds be of a Democrat running as a Republican just so he can get elected.
ReplyDeleteThis blog and these comments support Mohler's assertion of ignorance and reveals a high level of arrogance and rebellion. A teacher/preacher might fix ignorance, but he can't fix arrogance and rebellion. Truth is, God calls teacher/preachers to teach and train His people. When you look at the average church, 99 percent of the people (lay people) want, need, and hope their pastor will teach them and lead them in a deeper walk with Christ. It is called the Church, the body of Christ at work. God help all of us.
ReplyDeleteAnon - don't sell the pastors short. They absolutely know how to fix rebellion. It is to declare the hellions lost sinners and execute their church discipline process and remove the ignorant, rebellious recalcitants from the church. Amen? Amen!
ReplyDeleteGod has used His Pastors too...
ReplyDeleteStop Slavery
End Racism
Abolish Liquor
End Pornography
God has used Our Pastors to get this Country Straight.
The really sad part of the Church Discipline that was executed at FBC Jax against Tom Rich (FBC Jax Watchdog) was NOT Church Discipline, but Pastor Discipline. I would encourage readers to learn about the REAL Church Discipline from Tom Ascol's Blog.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:59.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to brush up on your church history. Calvinism exists in Baptists and Presbyterians since the inception of our country and was established in Europe. Most of the KJV translators were Calvinists as were Beza and Stephanus who were both involved in the editing process of the Textus Receptus.
There are some Godly preachers that are Calvinsts. John Piper is a Calvinist and he pastors Bethlehem BAPTIST Church. Some others are John MacArthur, James White the author of the King James Only Controversy, Mark Driscoll (yep potty-mouth Mark).
I can provide some links if you'd like to read up on it.
God Bless
Anon 8:15 Obviously is ignorant of the SBC’s history.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog,
ReplyDeleteI love your blog and what you stand for. However, I have to disagree with you on this. Remember, this is a sermon towards pastors. As a pastor, I know it is good to be encouraged and reminded of our duty to preach the Word.
So often I hear of preachers who whip something up Saturday night, and wonder why the culture of their church is lacking. This, along with the rise of sermon plagiarism, has led to a decrease of homiletic skill and virtue. This sermon is meant to redress this.
While I understand where you come from, and I know "saving people from ignorance" goes too far. Please understand that a preacher can often treat a ministry as nothing more than a paycheck (remind you of anyone?), rather than a noble, but arduous journey of servanthood and sacrifice. Pastors need to be reminded of this.
John Calvin was totally wrong on several points, i.e., total depravity...he ignored Elijah, Enoch, Job, Daniel and some others that we know of and probably a hundred million or more.
ReplyDeleteHe was wrong that Jesus only died for some not the whole world. John 3:16 knocks that out quite easily. Unconditional election really a bad idea since man has the ability to accept or reject Christ this also fails to be correct. Irresistible grace doesn't work either since some have sought it with tears and even attempted to purchase it. As far as Preservation of the Saints that has been guaranteed by Jesus Christ as well in John 3:16. I find it hard for Beza to have accomplished anything connected with the KJV which was published in 1611 as he died in 1605.
There are a lot more that believe the Bible differently than John Calvin. If John Calvin was correct there would be no need of a bible much less any pastors since those lost would stay lost and nothing you could preach to them would persuade them to be in the elect.
People are indeed ignorant whenever they listen to the average Joe rather than what God has written in His bible.
Anon 11:55 a.m. What pastors need to be reminded of is that most of the Great Pastors never went to college or seminary. They just believed the Word and taught it. They like the rest of us believers knew that the oceans could not contain the wisdom of God if all the books written were thrown into them. The best preachers that ever preached were country preachers than had nothing, wanted nothing, walked or rode on horseback from one village to another. What we have learned is that the elitest think so much of themselves and higher learning it blocks their vision of reality. Give me Billy Sunday, Oliver Green, Jonathon Edwards, Wesley brothers and those like them over any PHD.
ReplyDelete"For those of you who are long time members of First Baptist,have visited First Baptist, or have never been to First Baptist, If you go to youtube, type into the top "chip dorton" it will bring up about 9 videos of our choir and chip along with other videos from years ago, some even from past pastors conferences. That way you will see what great talent we had when Rodney was our choir director. I believe there is even the video of Rodney singing the lighthouse song.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 13, 2011 8:18 PM
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THANK YOU my dear friend, whomever you are for providing this week as I did not know this information.
It was such a blessing to me to hear Chip sing "I Want To See Heaven" as my mother was laid to rest on a Valentines Day. Hearing Chip, knowing he too is in Heaven just lifted my spirits, so I thank you for your thoughtfulness.
Off topic, the choir in those years was like no other. Personally I believe the young Jonathon Welsh should have been given the opportunity to replace Rodney Brooks, but he does not have the college or Ph.D degree that Brunson wants his staff to have. Jonathon has shown over & over his God given talent. To bad he wasn't given that opportunity.
Tom, thanks you for a better understanding of how the inner circle operates and what they think of the less fortunate in spirit.
ReplyDeleteKatie: Be glad that you/us arn't judged by Calvinistic standards, you might not make the requirements to be saved. Supposed you were unlucky enlough to NOT be one of the chosen/elect!!!! I will accept the FREE Grace given me by Jesus Christ anyday. He died once for all. He draws all men to Him. We have the free will whether to accept or reject Him. The "whosoever" in John 3:16, means "whosoever".
ReplyDeleteJohn Calvin's name is not mentioned in scripture nor did Jesus refer to him when speaking to the thief on the cross. People make entirely too much of Calvin. What about him from the 1st century to 1500 when he was unknown and since his death around 400 years or more ago. Stick with the Bible you do not need any MAN to guide you to truth.
ReplyDeleteThe ignorance on this blog is astounding in regard to the truth about Calvinism.
ReplyDeleteIt's always amusing when those who clearly don't understand calvinism (the doctrines of grace) parrot what they've heard. There is so much more to it than what you might initially think. Try listening to John Mac Arthur on the topic and then you will know the whole "no need for Bible, to witness etc" goes out the window. Which way you believe is your business, but you sound foolish when you post without even truly understanding the subject. (I know because I had the same exact thoughts before I studied it more in depth)
ReplyDelete"That way you will see what great talent we had when Rodney was our choir director."
ReplyDeleteCome on fellow choir member. Do you really believe this assanine statement you made? Talent comes and goes as folks move in and out of the body. The director has absolutely nothing to do with that!
"Personally I believe the young Jonathon Welsh should have been given the opportunity to replace Rodney Brooks, but he does not have the college or Ph.D degree that Brunson wants his staff to have."
Another ignorant statement from a worshiper of choir directors past. I happen to be a very close personal friend to JW and know everything going on with his formal education and he does not even have any type of degree although he is working on it.
Frankly, I don't think you are a current or past choir member because your statements are false.
As far as Brunson requiring some type of PHD, perhaps you better go back to school and get the facts before you start running you mouth about what folks have or don't have. Only a small fraction of the staff have PHD's. For the most part most barely have a 4 year degree.
Please put forth fact and not fiction as there are those who read this blog will take it as Gospel when it is NOT!
Oh and one last thing, Chip Dorton was a very rare talent whom those of us who were very close friends miss very much but Rodney didn't discover him or anything else for that matter. I was there the night Chip auditioned for the choir and we all were blown away at his incredible talent.
We Calvinist are not afraid to say exactly what the Bible says!
ReplyDeleteIf you are not one of God's elect, you will burn forever and it will glorify God...that is Bible.
You don't choose your salvation...God does.
You don't choose to follow Jesus...God chooses you.
You don't have any say whatsoever in where you spend eternity...That is what the Bible teaches.
Al Mohler is spot on. Calvinists began the SBC and we are ordained by God to run it.
If you don't like what I wrote, you may not be one of the elect.
I agree with a lot that you are saying here. I don't like the phrase Al used regarding the ignorance of the people either. However, I am not as critical of it because I understand the statement doesn't imply that pastors are the only teachers who help us in our ignorance. He was preaching to pastors as you indicated and his "rally the troops" approach is good and encouraging to pastors.
ReplyDeleteI'll write some more in a bit about a paragraph in the blog that I do have an issue with...peace
Anon 2:41
ReplyDelete"It's always amusing when those who clearly don't understand calvinism (the doctrines of grace) parrot what they've heard. There is so much more to it than what you might initially think."
***************
I could not say it any better. If a person hasn't actually studied the doctrines of grace, it's easy to belittle others who have. I've been studying the doctrines of grace for about 3 years now. I've been a Christian for more than 40 years. God has opened my heart to seeing the continuity of scripture that does indeed support Calvinism. I don't make a claim to Calvinism because there are still some issues I need to put to rest. Either way, I'm saved. But desiring a closer walk with Jesus sends one to the scriptures for real study. I don't know how much longer I will have to study these doctrines, but I intend to get all that God has planned for me, no matter how long it takes.
Much of what has been said here regarding Calvinism is simply not true. They are a collection of objections that Arminians use to revile Calvinism that have no basis in fact. I've yet to hear any cogent argument from an Arminian regarding Romans 9:10 and following. I couldn't explain it to myself for decades, so I avoided it.
I'm somewhere in the middle of this great divide, but I trust that God will decide.
Great comments.
God Bless
The ignorance on this blog is astounding in regard to the truth about Calvinism.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 14, 2011 2:40 PM
It seems no one could understand Christianity until the 1500's. How were people saved before Calvin wrote the Institutes?
And how can one be a "Calvinist" without giving Calvin the Glory that belongs to Christ?
I doubt that Calvin was even saved. Perhaps you should do some serious historical study of the man who was Calvin. Not a very nice guy. A tyrant.
The opposite of Calvin is not Arminius. That is also "parroting" what you have heard. You need to study more.
Give credit to Christ. Not man.
Anon: 2:47 PM
ReplyDeleteOuch, must have hurt your feelings - interesting that you read this blog since you come across as someone who feels this blog is filled with false statements.
I for one probably have been around FBCJ as long, perhaps longer than you - I remember Chip coming for the audition. I also know there were other talented soloist like him with exceptional talent, who are no longer there - one in particular was asked to leave because of mis-behavior.
You are right, not all staff have the PhD title behind their name, but for the most the staff does have college degrees (some advanced) in addition to some of the clerical & support staff.
Ouch again, sorry (not really) for hurting your feelings but I stand behind my words. If you knew me you would know I'm certainly not ignorant!
"So often I hear of preachers who whip something up Saturday night, and wonder why the culture of their church is lacking. This, along with the rise of sermon plagiarism, has led to a decrease of homiletic skill and virtue. This sermon is meant to redress this."
ReplyDeleteAnother problem I have with Mohler's comment is that he is a culture warrior. He spends more time on cultural aspects of Christianity than he does on the Gospel. He needs to practice what he preaches. But then, that would not make him so popular with radio, publishing, Larry King, etc.
(full disclosure: I am a pastor, a teacher, and a seminary graduate)
ReplyDeleteYour reference to the term "pastor" being used only once in the NT and your argument that follows it is misleading. You end that paragraph with..."it ain't in da Greek."
I do disagree with you on this point...here is why:
A survey of relevant texts to this issue demonstrates a consistent pattern in the NT of a plurality of "elders" as the main governing/teaching group in NT churches. Acts 14:23 "and when they had appointed elders for them in every church..." and Acts 20:17 and Titus 1:5 "this is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you." Thus, shortly after a church is established a plurality of elders is established, placed in office, and called to lead/teach the church.
Peter encourages these leaders to "tend the flock of God that is your charge" (1 Pet 5:1-2). This is a message to a plurality of churches throughout Rome and Asia Minor. The Jerusalem church had these leaders (Acts 11:30; 15:2). And, though the word "elders" is not used in Hebrews, the author directs churches to "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Heb 13:17).
This survey implies two things: 1) no passage suggests any church had only one elder/leader. The consistent pattern is plural elders in every church & every town. 2) we don't see a diversity of governing forms in NT churches. Each church had elders governing and keeping watch over the churches.
In da Greek, elders are also called bishops, overseers, and pastors in the NT, though the word pastor, as you pointed out is only used once (Eph 4:11). The verse is probably best translated "pastor-teacher" as well. The reference to "pastor-teachers" in Ephesians 4 suggests these pastors were some (or possibly all) of the elders who did the teaching in the churches, since on qualification for an elder in the NT is he be able to teach (1 Tim 3:2).
Also, though the term "pastor" is only used once in the NT, the related verb which means "to act as a shepherd" or "to act as a pastor" is applied to elders throughout the NT--Acts 20:28 for example. You notice its usage more in the English when the noun "flock" is used to describe who the verb applies to. But, it is in da Greek in many places.
Paul consistently charges the elders he sets up as the governers/teachers of churches to act as shepherds & pastors.
Now...if you want to question the American model of compensation for pastors/elders then I think I wouldn't be too critical of your arguments. However, to imply that the American model of employing pastors to lead churches isn't even biblical is at best, a mis-understanding of the bible and at worst, a poor hermeneutic being used to back up your platform.
I greatly enjoy your blogs...thanks for writing often and well. Peace!
You might want to brush up on your church history. Calvinism exists in Baptists and Presbyterians since the inception of our country and was established in Europe. Most of the KJV translators were Calvinists as were Beza and Stephanus who were both involved in the editing process of the Textus Receptus."
ReplyDeleteMany came here to escape the persecution of the Calvinists in Europe. Many Ana Baptists were drowned and imprisoned for refusing to baptize their infants or join the compulsory "state church".
Can you please tell me how a "state church" is Biblical since everyone was mandated to attend or face the magistrate?
How does that equate with "election"?
How do Calvinists explain that one?
(Luther once wrote that he "dreamed of a church of only true believers...along side the "state church"....I suppose the state church would be filled with unbelievers?)
Friends, Don't believe everything a pastor writes. Check this out after reading what Jennings wrote here and do your own homework to compare:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf
Remember, those who make their living as pastors have everything to lose if we do not follow them.
If you do not subscribe to the doctrines of Grace, it is because of your own lack of diligence to study God's Word.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of people that love God with their heart but not their mind.
If you are not Reformed then you are Deformed.
This heresy of choosing to follow Jesus is certainly not taught in the New Testament.
God does the choosing not You.
God does the saving not You.
Don't get mad at me, I didn't make the rules.
"Thus, shortly after a church is established a plurality of elders is established, placed in office, and called to lead/teach the church."
ReplyDeleteyou blew it. There is NO word "office" in the Greek. Nice try, though.
It is a function within the Body. And it simply denotes those more spiritually mature. In fact, "pastor" is simply shepherding someone and many could have that gift.
"Thus, shortly after a church is established a plurality of elders is established, placed in office, and called to lead/teach the church."
ReplyDeleteIt is also not static or the church is in trouble. Unforuantly, we give people "titles" and call it an "office" and they start feeling their oats.
The goal is for people to spiritually mature which means they will also eventually be in these functions. Please stop trying to be the Holy Spirit for the Body of Christ.
If you do not subscribe to the doctrines of Grace, it is because of your own lack of diligence to study God's Word.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of people that love God with their heart but not their mind.
If you are not Reformed then you are Deformed.
This heresy of choosing to follow Jesus is certainly not taught in the New Testament.
God does the choosing not You.
God does the saving not You.
Don't get mad at me, I didn't make the rules.
February 14, 2011 3:41 PM
Tell me when your church has their baby baptizing service and I will come. Oh, and the "sacrament" of the Lord's supper, too. Those things are also "Reformed".
Remember, it was called the "Reformation" because they wanted to "reform" the Catholic church. They STILL believed in the sacraments as a means of Grace. Not biblical!
"Paul consistently charges the elders he sets up as the governers/teachers of churches to act as shepherds & pastors."
ReplyDeleteConstantly?
Chapter and verses, please.
Did you notice that none of the apostles were educated. That in itself should lead you to realize that higher education does not necessarily make one enlightened to the Bible. There are a lot of educated people that have a real difficult time in putting in a light bulb, changing tires, or even mowing the yard.
ReplyDeleteThe American model of seminary is a means to make money off of education. I wonder just how much more effective our churches especially Baptist would have been if the seminaries have never opened?
To: Anonymous 3:46
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry...it sounds like you were burned by a pastor in the past...but don't allow your experience to create the paradigm for your interpretation of Scripture...peace!
To Anonymous 3:44
You are scared of the term "office" but not of other terms I used..."governors" "leaders" etc...the terms I use do imply leaders who are set up to lead/guide/shepherd...not to rule.
Also...if you want to use another term we can...sorry if "office" offends you...but it does imply the correct meaning from the NT...leaders, namely elders & deacons, were ordained to serve as "officers" of the church. That idea is where the term office comes from. I know it may offend you for some reason...but there are lot of words used today in our churches that are not in the NT..."office" is a legitimate concept or position to hold. If you've ever played a team sport you had a coach...he held the "office" of coach...did that offend you?
Anon 3:00
ReplyDelete"You don't have any say whatsoever in where you spend eternity...That is what the Bible teaches.
Al Mohler is spot on. Calvinists began the SBC and we are ordained by God to run it."
If your first statement is true, then we sure don't need preachers, evangelists, missionaries or other soul winners. We can just meet up on Sunday, high five ourselves for being "the ones," and go to lunch. (Or breakfast. Church will be over early.) But - how do you know you're one of the ones?
If your second statement is true...well, actually it isn't. It's a very arrogant opinion.
To: Anonymous 3:50
ReplyDeleteyou ask for chapter and verses...implying you don't trust me because I am a pastor. :D
Well...as a pastor I will suggest you look for them...they are in there :D
Peace!
IF I followed someone or something nowadays, I would rather be a Catholic follower vs a Baptist follower.
ReplyDeleteChrist had NO intentions for there to be seminaries or schools to teach others about him.
Man did this to profit from his teachings. Nothing more, nothing less. If people really believed in the Bible as they should, and the Holy Spirit as they could - why would you need anything else to promote Christ and his teachings. I will never listen to another man, I will seek my council from above and how I discern this will be based solely on the Holy Spirit movement.
But for me, I follow no earthly symbol or symbols.
Good day and Happy Valentine's day all you "MAN FOLLOWERS".
The KJV members were correct about "ignorance". Just take time to read the following which is the didication statement in the opening pages of an original 1611 edition.
ReplyDelete"Because we are poor instruments to make Gods holy truth to be yet more and more known unto the people, whom they desire still to keep in ignorance and darkness; or if on the other side, we shall be maligned by self-conceited brethren, who run their own ways, and give liking unto nothing but what is framed by themsleves, and hammered on their anvil; we may rest secure, supported within by the truth and innocence of good conscience, having walked the ways of simplicity and integrity, as before the Lord".
The translators provided the Bible for the common man whereby they would read it for themselves. They wouldn't have to pay someone else to tell them what was in the bible according to the Popish persons at home or abroad. I suggest everyone read the entire dedication pages for yourself and see how clearly the translators were more interested in preventing ignorance than any Johnnie come lately.
I love being Reformed because I love being right.
ReplyDeleteIt is amazing to sleep good at night knowing you are one of God's elect.
I know I did not choose to be one of the elect.
The ones that are not the Elect can only blame themselves for their lack of faith.
I was taught the doctorines of Grace by my Pastor and He told me that to get in to heaven is sort of like winning the lottery....you just get lucky you were picked!
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" (Eph. 4:11-12)
ReplyDeleteThere are two extremes that have been displayed through the comments on this particular post. One is the idea that pastors are more qualified to understand the Bible than others are. The second is the discounting completely of pastors and teachers. Both views are unscriptural.
Being a Calvinist is like joining a cult. Anon 4:00 pm is spot on. We don't need pastors, evangelists, or missionaries. They are all irreverent. Stay home and save your money for a rainy day. Why would anyone want to show up and all do the same thing unless they are playing golf together. Maybe I missed something or possibly I'm just ignorant on the meaning of life.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever noticed a pastor in the pulpit. He never once asks anyone for their opinion he just keeps going over whatever he has written down. He needs to stop and see if anyone differs in an opinion since he could learn something. That goes for the Bible, finances, and letting some good people go. But, thats what happens when one is given full authority in all areas of the church which is totally unbiblical.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the old Methodist where all sit around and discuss the subject. Each one participates and all learn from each other which is what needs to take place. I agree with THY PEACE. WE all can learn by ourselves without some other sinner telling us we have it all wrong.
"I was taught the doctorines of Grace by my Pastor and He told me that to get in to heaven is sort of like winning the lottery....you just get lucky you were picked!"
ReplyDeleteEither this is a ding on your pastor or you are totally pulling everybody's leg.
If you seriously believe this, you might be really surprised one day.
"Ouch, must have hurt your feelings - interesting that you read this blog since you come across as someone who feels this blog is filled with false statements."
ReplyDeleteSorry to disappoint you, but my feelings are not hurt. I did not say THIS blog was filled with false statements either. Perhaps you wish to extrapolate that from my posting, so be it.
I never said you were ignorant, just your statements.
We probably both sing together in the alto section, but that does not negate an invigorating discussion. I am sure that you have been there as long as me which is pushing 4 decades and you like I have seen them come and go. For many reasons like you say, some of which have been tawdry for sure.
I personally like FACTUAL information and not supposition.
See you Thursday night fellow alto.
Have you ever noticed a pastor in the pulpit. He never once asks anyone for their opinion he just keeps going over whatever he has written down. He needs to stop and see if anyone differs in an opinion since he could learn something. That goes for the Bible, finances, and letting some good people go. But, thats what happens when one is given full authority in all areas of the church which is totally unbiblical.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the old Methodist where all sit around and discuss the subject. Each one participates and all learn from each other which is what needs to take place. I agree with THY PEACE. WE all can learn by ourselves without some other sinner telling us we have it all wrong.
I prefer the old Methodist where all sit around and discuss the subject. Each one participates and all learn from each other which is what needs to take place. I agree with THY PEACE. WE all can learn by ourselves without some other sinner telling us we have it all wrong.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 14, 2011 4:36 PM
This is closer to what Paul recommends in 1 Corin 14. We were never meant to be taught by one person for a long period of time.
To: Anonymous 3:50
ReplyDeleteyou ask for chapter and verses...implying you don't trust me because I am a pastor. :D
Well...as a pastor I will suggest you look for them...they are in there :D
Peace!
February 14, 2011 4:04 PM
I think I know which ones you might be referring to. BUT...I was more concerned with the context of those passages and what you are implying here about a staunch church polity.
check out the link for straight talk to pastors I gave above and let us know how the author is wrong. Here it is again:
http://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf
"I'm sorry...it sounds like you were burned by a pastor in the past...but don't allow your experience to create the paradigm for your interpretation of Scripture...peace!"
ReplyDeleteI have never been burned by a pastor. Strange you would automatically think that because I disagree with you.
A safety mechanism for your ego, perhaps?
God has used His Pastors too...
ReplyDeleteStop Slavery
End Racism
Abolish Liquor
End Pornography
God has used Our Pastors to get this Country Straight.
Yes, I know it's a troll, but...
Christians, Pastors and Church Pornography Statistics
A 1996 Promise Keepers survey at one of their stadium events revealed that over 50% of the men in attendance were involved with pornography within one week of attending the event.
51% of pastors say cyber-porn is a possible temptation. 37% say it is a current struggle (Christianity Today, Leadership Survey, 12/2001).
Over half of evangelical pastors admits viewing pornography last year.
Roger Charman of Focus on the Family's Pastoral Ministries reports that approximately 20 percent of the calls received on their Pastoral Care Line are for help with issues such as pornography and compulsive sexual behavior.
In a 2000 Christianity Today survey, 33% of clergy admitted to having visited a sexually explicit Web site. Of those who had visited a porn site, 53% had visited such sites “a few times” in the past year, and 18% visit sexually explicit sites between a couple of times a month and more than once a week.
Sounds like a lot of pastors are contributing to the pornography industry, not ending it.
Also, last time I checked, racism, alcohol, and even slavery still exist in this country.
Also...if you want to use another term we can...sorry if "office" offends you...but it does imply the correct meaning from the NT...leaders, namely elders & deacons, were ordained to serve as "officers" of the church. That idea is where the term office comes from. I know it may offend you for some reason...but there are lot of words used today in our churches that are not in the NT..."office" is a legitimate concept or position to hold. If you've ever played a team sport you had a coach...he held the "office" of coach...did that offend you?
ReplyDeleteFebruary 14, 2011 4:00 PM
The "concept" of "office" is not in the Greek. Not even because you say so. It is simply not in there. These are functions within the Body that are not static. The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you. Everyone is needed. And the goal should be holiness. Those who have "gone before" should want others to grow in Holiness past them. They are not holding onto an "office".
That word was inserted by those laboring under a "divine king" who was the authority over the "state church". We are to be a peculiar
people...we are not like the world in our "organism" that is alive and filled with the Holy Spirit. We do not hold to the typical Roman/Greek chain of being as in heirarchies.
I realize that is a rare find in what we term the "church" these days which mirrors more of a business than the true ekklesia. The true ekklesia has servants not those who want an "office" or authority over others in the Body of Christ.
Have you ever noticed a pastor in the pulpit. He never once asks anyone for their opinion he just keeps going over whatever he has written down. He needs to stop and see if anyone differs in an opinion since he could learn something. That goes for the Bible, finances, and letting some good people go. But, thats what happens when one is given full authority in all areas of the church which is totally unbiblical.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the old Methodist where all sit around and discuss the subject. Each one participates and all learn from each other which is what needs to take place. I agree with THY PEACE. WE all can learn by ourselves without some other sinner telling us we have it all wrong.
"You are scared of the term "office" but not of other terms I used..."governors" "leaders" etc...the terms I use do imply leaders who are set up to lead/guide/shepherd...not to rule."
ReplyDeleteThis is why I love blogging. We are seeing firsthand just how arrogant pastors are. I think it is learned in seminary. Notice how this pastor assumes the commenter is "scared" of the term "office".
The commenter has said it is not in the Greek and they are right. It is not in there. It was added by translators.
This pastor also accused the commenter of being burned by a pastor at some point even though the commenter never said that. This pastors assumes it must be so to dare question a pastor.
The implications of arrogance from many pastors are astounding if you read them long enough you start to see what is really in their hearts. Too bad it does not come out when they show up to "perform" on stage each week. That is another reason why such a thing is dangerous to the pastors soul.
Another ignorant statement from a worshiper of choir directors past. I happen to be a very close personal friend to JW and know everything going on with his formal education and he does not even have any type of degree although he is working on it.
ReplyDeleteYou must not be that close. I just assumed the "Dr." in "Dr. James D. Whitmire" was earned but didn't know for certain.
It wasn't, but according to this article from when he came to FBC Jax, "A 1962 graduate of Stetson University in Deland, he has led choir tours to 38 states and 13 foreign countries and judged handbell, choral and instrumental festivals. In 1999, he was given the honorary doctor of music degree from Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va."
Have you ever noticed a pastor in the pulpit. He never once asks anyone for their opinion he just keeps going over whatever he has written down. He needs to stop and see if anyone differs in an opinion since he could learn something. That goes for the Bible, finances, and letting some good people go. But, thats what happens when one is given full authority in all areas of the church which is totally unbiblical.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the old Methodist where all sit around and discuss the subject. Each one participates and all learn from each other which is what needs to take place. I agree with THY PEACE. WE all can learn by ourselves without some other sinner telling us we have it all wrong.
Good to see you back John Wylie; we miss you when you are gone!
ReplyDeleteand Amen to your comment.
Yes, lets just sit in a circle and each one tell what the Bible means to them. Lets not let another sinner tell us. What rfebellion. Not against a man, but against the authority of the very Word itself.
ReplyDeleteMy Reformed Pastor took the Doctrines of Grace to a whole nutha level!
ReplyDeleteHe said the reason people live in slums and poverty is because of God's divine judgement on them.
He said that God sends people to Hell and it glorifies Him and people living in trash dumps is preordained.
Makes you wonder.....these Doctorines of Grace take a lot of pressure off of us....Everything that happens is God's will!
Thank God for my Pastor, I coule have never figured this out by just reading the Bible myself.
I can agree with some of your posts but I am begging you, Tom, PLEASE stop bashing preachers. Because even when you only bash "one or two" you are bashing them all. There are some wonderful pastors out there who are truly trying to make a difference in their communities, who are out there trying to share the word of God and who are heartbroken every night over the people in their community. But when you come on here and continue to spew hate ALL the time you make ALL pastors seem like greedy rich idiots. Please please stop. It's hard enough to share the gospel today without someone who says he is a Christian bashing pastors.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with your characterization of my blog as "bashing". I am speaking the cold hard truth about some of the more prominent preachers of our day who are held up as role models for other pastors. I believe that a good number of the WD readers are pastors all over the country, and I think this blog has done a good thing by exposing some of the ridiculous statements and doctrines made by the likes of Brunson, Gaines, Young, Mohler, Jeffress, Caner, and many others. This is not bashing, it is speaking the truth.
ReplyDeleteAnd to "bash" one or two - to use your term - is absolutely not bashing them all. To the contrary, many lay people who read this blog are able to see the contrast between the preachers exposed here, and their own pastor, and I hope this gives them a greater appreciation for their pastor.
I do realize that many think this particular post is attacking the importance of the "pastorate" in Christian life. Yes, I am attacking the non-biblical view of a pastor as being some sort of super-spiritual guru that without their sermons and their greek interpretations we can't be faithful Christians. I most certainly am attacking THAT. I will attack false doctrines on tithing.
Someone linked to a Steve Gaines clip here in these comments, where he says that God speaks especially to pastors in a different way and at a deeper level than other Christians. I reject that, and yes I will attack that and expose that nonsense every chance I get on this blog.
But to all you faithful pastors - God bless you, keep doing what you are doing. Love the sheep, be a shepherd and not a brow-beater. Trust God with the finances of the church, stop arm twisting and stop wasting money on church consultants to come up with unique ways to squeeze the extra nickels out of people.
And the Watchdog blog will continue blasting these false teachings. We're just getting started! Full steam ahead!
Searching Together [Jon Zens] > Four Tragic Shifts In The Visible Church 180-400 A. D.
ReplyDeleteMost professing Christians do not realize that the central concepts and practices associated with what we call 'church' are not rooted in the New Testament, but in patterns established in the post-apostolic age. While there are a legion of disagreements among serious students of church history concerning various issues and details during the period of 50 A.D. to 325 A.D., they all speak as one voice in affirming the four undeniable shifts that will be examined in this article. Church historians of all theological and ecclesiastical backgrounds observe in their writings the following four shifts:
1. The church portrayed in the New Testament was a dynamic organism, a living body with many parts. The church from around 180 A.D. onwards became an increasingly hardened institution with a fixed and complex hierarchy.
2. The early church was marked by; the manifestation of a polyform ministry by which edification and the meeting of needs were accomplished through the gifts of all the brethren. The post-apostolic church moved more and more toward a uniform conception of church offices which separated ministry from the 'laity' and limited significant ministry to the 'clergy'.
3. The church of the first and most of the second centuries was characterized by cycles of intense difficulty and persecution - it was a suffering body. With the advent of Constantine the church became protected, favored and ultimately sanctioned as the state religion by the Roman state, and thus became an institution at ease.
4. In the New Testament the church, with no small measure of vulnerability, depended on the Holy Spirit to hold the brethren together and to lead them in ministry. Later, the church trusted in itself as a very powerful institution, along with its many rules, rites and offices to secure visible unity among its adherents.
These four shifts are indisputable. They did not come about in a day. They were the result of many factors working together as time elapsed. There are many implications to ponder in light of these significant changes that occurred. I would like to explore each of these shifts in order to highlight certain key issues that each of us needs to face.
pastors seem like greedy rich idiots. Please please stop.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Pastors should start behaving like a servent of god. Please understand the truth is difficult to understand. There are people out there who do not want you to be exposed to the truth. But god commands you to know the truth.
Honestly, I'm glad Rodney Brooks left. Brooks is probably a better director than Whitmire, but Whitmire is a huge improvement in the personality department.
ReplyDeleteI do think the music quality has fallen the past few years. Whitmire has excellent song selection; it's the singing itself that seems less polished.
I can't believe there are three of us choir members posting on here. See you Thursday night!
1 Cor.1:vs.17: :For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect".
ReplyDelete" Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's always amusing when those who clearly don't understand calvinism (the doctrines of grace) parrot what they've heard. There is so much more to it than what you might initially think. Try listening to John Mac Arthur on the topic and then you will know the whole "no need for Bible, to witness etc" goes out the window. Which way you believe is your business, but you sound foolish when you post without even truly understanding the subject. (I know because I had the same exact thoughts before I studied it more in depth)
February 14, 2011 2:41 PM
I totally agree with you Anon.
I personally don't care for the term Calvinism,I chose to call it Sovereignism,or the Sovereignty of God.
The Bible clearly teaches that it is God who choses us,not us who chose God. "For the children not yet being born,nor having done any good or evil,that the purpose of God according to "ELECTION" might stand,not of works but of "HIM WHO CALLS"[Rom.9:11].
Calvin did not discover Sovereign election,it has always been in the Bible,both Old an New Testaments!!!
Wishihadknown,
ReplyDeleteThank you for you kind comments. It's good to be back.
It's hard enough to share the gospel today without someone who says he is a Christian bashing pastors.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 14, 2011 9:36 PM
In other words, sweep negative truths under the table. The problem is, the world already knows about them and that is a big reason they won't listen to. They think you are an idiot for following such people. These pastors make merchandise of the Gospel and themselves and you wonder why it is harder to share the Gospel?
Can you imagine being an unbeliever and hearing Al Mohler say that pastors are "God appointed" agents to save people from ignorance? Those are "cult" words. And a total disreguard for what scripture acually teaches about the priesthood. Al Mohler's behavior over the last 20 years proves he is against the priesthood of believer doctrine. He tried to get it taken out of the BFM 2000 completely.
I applaud those who quote Zens and Viola concerning the un-Biblical "church" where a "pastor" is the center of attention, and see that any congregation operating more like a business than a Body is not in the NT.
ReplyDeleteBut I wonder... do you still keep practicing this business model and still focus on "the pastor's message" each Sunday? When does theory meet practice?
Someone has repeatedly posted how the old Methodists met, and it sounds like the NT church to me. Are all of you who know that the post-apostolic model is wrong still "doing church" the post-ap way?
The main reason we need Pastors is to understand the Doctrines of Grace.
ReplyDeleteI read the Bible thru 4 times.
I never saw Reformed theology in there!
Then my Pastor taught me that it glorifies God to send people to Hell.
That we have no choice in our eternity.
It is all preordained!
I would have never figured that out of my own with just my NIV Bible.
I feel so good to be one of the elect.
Reformed Theology is awesome...you don't have to do anything...we are all just Spiritual Robots!!!
Anon February 15, 2011 8:29 AM--
ReplyDeleteExactly. But most Calvinists will be incensed that you've taken their teachings to their logical conclusions. It's just like the difference between predestination and double-predestination: ... there isn't one! To predestine a few for heaven means that the rest, whether you actively decreed it or not, go to hell by default.
This Calvinistic Doctrine of "the chosen, or the elect" is nuts. Are you telling me that Jesus died on the Cross for only the chosen?!!! So the rest of us (saved by Grace) are just lost?!!! Baloney!!! So we just walk around without any assurance of salvation, that our bible teaches. We just hope we are one of the chosen! Do you know how many people (if they believed this) would live their lives wondering "Am I one of the chosen ones or am I totally lost". I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, and then someone tells me well you may not be chosen and you might be going to hell. What!!!! J How about this....Maybe the preacher is not one of the chosen...what then. You might be listening (and paying) a preacher that is going to hell because he isn't "chosen". Do you know how terrifying this is to someone that is not really strong in scripture knowledge...maybe a new Christian. They live in terror wondering am I really Saved...what if God didn't really choose me". NUTS. No wonder so many preachers are in it for the money...they may think it doesn't matter what I preach God is going to save who He wants anyway...NUTS!!!! What do you do with the preaching about repentance???? Why repent of sin if your not chosen!!! It is error and might I say blasphemy to preach that Jesus died on the Cross for a few elect and not ALL of mankind as His Word teaches. I personally don't believe that Jesus has any "throw away" (not chosen) people that have accepted Him as Savior and trust what He did at the Cross for them. Giving them Eternal Life!!! It is terrible to take the hope of the Cross and of Eternal Life away from believers because they might not be chosen, according to Calvinistic teaching. Scripture follows.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous 5:41
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry for mis-applying my assumptions. You seem to have such a low view of pastors I simply assumed it had to come from experience...again, as I began that not (context is key), sorry.
To Anonymous 5:47
you say the "concept" of office is not in the Greek. How about "ordained leadership"? Do you have a problem with those terms? There seems to be a biblical ring to them. Paul simply calls them elders in most places, yet, he is consistent in setting up ordained (prayed over & commissioned) leaders in every church he establishes. Peace!
To: Anonymous 5:42
OK...you didn't like the word "scared" in my comment. Again...sorry...but if you couldn't sense the note of sarcasm in that word then you either aren't as keen as I think you are, or I tapped into some intellectual arrogance you might carry...in either case...sorry, I will be more careful in choosing my terms in the future...and I believe the majority of pastors are really great, godly men, doing great, godly work. On that we may have to agree to disagree! Peace!
Scripture follows from 10:01 AM.
ReplyDeleteIsaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved".
I Cor 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all tht which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
21-22 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive".
Eph 2:1-5 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins, Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience; Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)".
13-17 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.
Col 1:19-22 For it pleased the Father tht in him should all fullness dwell, And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himslef; by him, I say, whether they be thngs in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight.
Just today I had to correct a pastor at a - get this - a post office.
ReplyDeleteA very lovely blond lady held the door open for him while he brought in his mail, and she walked in to the left to go to her PO BOX. I knew he was a local "Pastor" of a church so I just focused on him and his reaction.
His eyes never left her bottom from the time she walked in to the time she got into her car.
I then went up to him and told him "out loud" Pastor shame on you, you should keep your eyes where they belong - inside your skull....
He looked down and said nothing as he knew exactly what had happened....
They are no better than us...just get paid better.
"I'm sorry for mis-applying my assumptions. You seem to have such a low view of pastors I simply assumed it had to come from experience...again, as I began that not (context is key), sorry."
ReplyDeleteI cannot find the paid "office" of "pastor" in the scriptures. I see double honor given to those who serve well in the Body. But even then the Body is made up people who are all needed and it is not a building or a 501c3. It is a living organism filled with the Holy Spirit. With Jesus Christ as the leader.
All the rest is man made traditions that are dangerous to your soul. Your snarkiness here proves it.After all, you are paid to be a Christian.
Thank you Ryan Jennings for your thoughtful and respectful post about the origin of “pastor.” Yours is an example of a post we need more of.
ReplyDelete"you say the "concept" of office is not in the Greek. How about "ordained leadership"? Do you have a problem with those terms?"
ReplyDeleteYes. Once again you take it too far. Leader in the Greek is simply one who stands before...or went before. They are the spiritually mature who have been broken by sanctification and live in faith. They are not paid professional Christians. And others can grow past them and they will be delighted. They do not hold on to their "position" nor think of themselves as the authority over others in the Body. They think of themselves as servants. As Jesus taught.
As to "ordained". What is it in the Greek? Is it really a ceremony where a human can confer spiritual legitimacy to another man's ministry? Look at how far the Romans took that one. We are not much better.
How are you using the word? It is used in many ways in the KJV. I am hoping you are not using it as the RC uses it as in apostalic succession. Perhaps you could tell me who qualifies to "appoint" or "ordain" as I think you might be using it.
Those filled with the Holy Spirit will instinctively know who the spiriutally mature are. Because they have prayed about it.
"aul simply calls them elders in most places, yet, he is consistent in setting up ordained (prayed over & commissioned) leaders in every church he establishes. Peace!"
You did not read the link I provided, did you? It gives the historical and biblical perspective of what you are trying to sell here to affirm your "office" and position.
One has to wonder why Paul did not address all the letters to these exhalted elders to carry out his instructions. Strange how he wrote most of them to the entire body to carry out. One would think the leaders would be in charge of such things...always.
Additional scripture: John 12:32: Jesus said:"And if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me".
ReplyDelete1John 4:14: "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world".
Rom:3:22-26: vs.22: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference". vs.23: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". vs.24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". vs. 25: "Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith that is in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearance of God; vs.26: "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus".
1John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him".
2Peter 3:"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".
So having these promises of God, how can election even be considered. I would add: Rev.22:18-19: vs.18: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book". vs.19: "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book".
With all of the books, radio, TV, internet and Bibles in the world today does anyone really believe that a man, whether he is a pastor or anyone else, can “save God’s people from ignorance” as Mohler proposes? Does it not seem more realistic that most church member simply chooses to be ignorant and that no one, no matter how Godly, is going to motivate that person to learn? Should we not all study the Word with as much enthusiasm as any seminary graduate?
ReplyDeleteWell according to Thayer the word ordain means the following:
ReplyDeleteG2525
καθίστημι
kathistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to set, place, put
1a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
1b) to appoint one to administer an office
1c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
1d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
1e) to conduct or bring to a certain place
1f) to show or exhibit one’s self
1f1) come forward as
And if you look at how the KJV translators dealt with the word probably the word ordain is best defined as "to appoint". That's precisely the way it's used in Titus 1:5 The word never means to acknowledge or recognize. It's translated in the KJV: make, made, set, ordained, appoint etc...
I wonder if the Baptist deacons will have to be taught over again another way to handle prospective members who walk the aisle. Rather than use the Romans Road verses they will have to learn John Calvins way. The Calvinistic system could lead to a real different ending. Those that learn and believe the Romans Road leave knowing that their faith in Jesus has changed them forever. The Calvinist could lead them to not know that they are/will ever be saved and not only that but the pastor and possibly the deacon discussing the matter might also be unsaved. This idea of not knowing is very unsettling.
ReplyDeleteI have come to understand from my Pastor that God DOES NOT want everyone in heaven. If HE did, then HE would predestinate everyone to Heaven. HE wants some people to go to Hell.
ReplyDeleteMy Pastor preached 3 weeks ago that God created some people for destruction. Regardless of what some uneducated Pastors teach...it is NOT God's Will for all to be Saved.
Being one of the Elect is like being one of Bill Gates's kids...you didn't deserve it and you hate that everyone can't have it....but hey...someone has to do it!
Why exactly do you people sing in choir at FBC Jax? For YOUR GLORY???..and are you joking about that lighthouse...gee sounds.. uh.. GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteJim Whitmire is like the greatest choir director out there...you all are like unreal.
But if you don't have a spinning lighthouse, or a talking chest of joash, I guess things just aren't the same.
Being one of the Elect is like being one of Bill Gates's kids...you didn't deserve it and you hate that everyone can't have it....but hey...someone has to do it!
ReplyDeleteBad analogy. ALL of God's children are "adopted", and unlike the non-Gates children, are destined to eternal hell. God has said point blank that he "is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".
To use your analogy, it would be like Gates saying he wants to adopt all the orphans in the world, which he could easily afford, but he chooses not to--- in spite of the fact that all those he does not choose will be tortured forever. Yeah, too bad for those unchosen ones, whose suffering he could have averted, but we special, chosen ones are gonna party and love him!
I have noticed the caliber of soloists, trios, or in-house groups has waned a bit under Whitmire. The choir is still tops, it may just be that Bro. Whitmire's focus is more on the choir than on other aspects of the music program, not making an excuse just an observation and a thought. FBCJAX still has one of the top music programs in the country and yes Rodney Brooks had a big part in that.
ReplyDeleteOn the note concerning Dr. Mohler's sermon. I have noticed many holding Dr. John MacArthur's name being held up high for all of us to see regarding his stance on tithing and "free-will" giving. The fact that he does not believe that tithing is for the New Testament church has had many on here singing his praises and proving your point. Go and examine his thoughts on the idea of what Dr. Mohler has said in this sermon. I can assure you that he is in 100% agreement with Dr. Mohler.
Now, I am not saying that because Dr. MacArthur would agree with Dr. Mohler makes Mohler's sermon correct, however, to use Dr. MacArthur to validate your point on tithing you have to be prepared to have his point used to prove a point against you.
Kyle
God DOES NOT want everyone saved!
ReplyDeleteThat is heresy!!!
He predestined some to go to Hell, and it will glorify Him!
Please read your Bible Brother!
How did a story about Al Mohler's speech get turned into a debate on Calvinism?
ReplyDeleteGod does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent. (2 Peter 3:9)
ReplyDeleteBut I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. (John 12:32)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. (John 3:16-18)
To Anonymous 11:28
ReplyDeleteOK...I read the first 8-10 pages of the link you provided but there are many illogical leaps and poor foundations in his argument, so I had to stop (but now I understand better where you are coming from, so that is helpful).
Briefly, his understanding of the word "ordain" in the NT is incorrect. See John Wylie's post from 1:53.
Next, he then begins a litany of foundational arguments from silence. He says, "note what it doesn't say" over and over again to build the foundations for his argument.
You do the same thing. You make the argument that it is a "wonder that Paul doesn't write all his letters to these elders/pastors" (i'm paraphrasing you here). Your argument is shaky for the same reasons Frank's argument is...and you, as he does, neglect the reality that Paul did give letters, that are in the NT, to appointed pastors/elders/church leaders, namely Timothy & Titus.
Using your tactic I could argue: There is no command in the Scripture not to pay a salary to your preacher! Therefore, it must be OK to do so...I mean, doesn't Paul talk about it enough that if paying our preachers was a problem, surely he would have mentioned it???
See, I know you won't like that form of argumentation...neither do I...but that is how Frank builds his arguments...and how you are leaning as well.
I'm enjoying the journey...peace and grace to you!
According to some who post on here it really doesn't matter what you do in life, murder, steal, lie, if you are chosen you get in. However, if you do not murder, never steal or lie you could get in. Its sort of like one denomination where you can at one moment be in and the next out. When one in that sect dies their love ones have no idea that their deceased relative was in or out. Also, the poor deceased had no idea as well. Bad theology. God would have you ignorant brethren. Quit following man and stick to the Bible for wisdom as God always delivers just what we need.
ReplyDeleteI agree with some that post regarding the choir. It changes from year to year and decade to decade. You lose some you win some. Overall, I believe the choir numbers may be down and while some of the soloist are no longer present there are some that are coming along. I too miss the quartets as there were quite a number of them from Jr High, Sr High, and adults that could really put on a good performance. The church didn't even need to hire outside quartets as their own were just as good if not better.
ReplyDeleteI thank God every day I am one of the Elect!
ReplyDeleteNOTHING can take me out of His Hand!
I struggle with Porno and Prescription Drugs but that does not matter because I am one of His Kids!
In fact, my behavior does not matter!
If you are predestined to be in.....you are in!!!
My Pastor said this is already predetermined....so it really does not matter what I do....does it?
I will not Burn....no matter what I do!
Can't beat that!!!
6:21 why do you keep coming here and throwing all these sarcastic comments up. You've been doing this for like thread after thread....I assume it's to make idiots of which I guess I now am one to tell you what an idiot you are. NOW YOU ARE TWISTING MY LOGICAL WORDS INTO A PILE OF GOO.
ReplyDeleteAnd when you people say God wants people to go to hell you make my skin crawl.
And since when have they bringing in quartets from the outside at FBC Jax?
I can recall the Cathredal's, Gaither Quartet, and some others which names I cannot remember. Quartets have come to FBC for years and years. I'm not 6:21 as he is pulling your leg.
ReplyDeleteanon 5:41. There's a big difference between taking up a collection and tithing. One's voluntary the other is the LAW.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that I have to agree with anon. 2:02 post about the quality of music since Rev, Whitmire took over as music director after Rodney left to go to Charles Stanleys church. I've been a member since 94 and I remember the quality of soloist we had.
ReplyDeleteI think you mean "out of town" type!
The music is no better or worst than when Rodney left I can say as a choir member who has been there for Whitmire, Brooks, Stone, and Dawson.
As far as home grown groups and soloists there are more than there have ever been and with great diversification and quality!
Here is an idea. Come join the choir and be a valuable part. We can always use more faithful people.
ANON taunts: "Why exactly do you people sing in choir at FBC Jax? For YOUR GLORY???..and are you joking about that lighthouse...gee sounds.. uh.. GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
We that sing will not waste our time trying to justify to you why we sing. Your snippet on the lighthouse shows that you do not understand the significance of that. We again will not try to enlighten you.
God Bless!
I used to think that God loved everyone.
ReplyDeleteMy Pastor has taught me that there are those that God hates and that there has been no chance at all since they were born that they can saved.
I have stopped witnessing to anyone, it doesn't really matter, if they are not the elect, I am wasting my breath.
Jesus blood was not shed for them.
I am so glad that my Pastor went to Southern Seminary and was able to bring me these truths.
It's not that I am proud of myself...I am proud that God chose ME to be one of the Elect!
Ain't God Good!!!!
Can someone explain how one knows that they are appointed agents of God?
ReplyDeleteAnon 6:21,
ReplyDeleteI know you're jerking us around, but some of your stuff IS humorous, so more power to ya!
Anon 10:43,
Great question! How do they know they are appointed by God? They just KNOW. (How dare you question their knowing!!!)
Looking at this post with fresh eyes, AND having lived much of my most formative years in the Baptist world, it's best to look at the pastors as your parents. You are still a child, a mere sheep, not a grown-up. You are not capable of running your spiritual and emotional life without their guidance. Yes, those grown-ups out in the world make it fine without the pastors' help, but YOU don't have the maturity.
I'd say they don't really want you to overcome that ignorance, because then you might finally realize you don't need to be spoon-fed by them and can think for yourself-and decide for yourself what doctrines are correct, if evolution is true, if drinking is a sin, if gays are evil, etc., etc.
Anon 9:51,
ReplyDeleteGlory! Congrats on your Electness!
WishIHadKnown,
ReplyDeletePeople DON'T study for the most part, so that's why all these preachers have job security. It's a whole lot less time-consuming to just trust that the preacher knows what he's talking about.
What's funny is how one preacher, a Calvinist, is gonna save us from the ignorant Arminian preacher. And vice-versa.
8:55 ..please don't bother to enlighten me as to your reasons to singing in choir. I don't care as I no longer attend...because of people JUST LIKE YOU.
ReplyDeleteI guess you sing because you are the "ELECT".
You are "God-Appointed agents to save His people from their ignorance.
Whats next, talking offering plates?
Ya'll put the E in ignorant.
Billy Graham wasted his time!
ReplyDeleteThese people that prayed those prayers...if they were not one of the Elect...it didn't matter!!!
My Pastor told me don't worry about the Lost...God doesn't worry about them either!!
If He wanted them saved, he would have Elected them. So why should I try to change something that can't be changed.
Thank God for Al Mohler for teaching me the 5 Points of Calvinism....I haven't shared my faith in 5 years and I don't feel guilty at all!!
This Reformed theology gives you a really good feeling!!!!
Anon 8:35,
ReplyDeleteYou're right. It sure does take a load off. That IS one of the pluses.
I'm an out of towner that has been reading this blog for a few weeks. I see this blog as doing alot of good and alot of bad. It seems to be a forum for exposing some dangerous actions by leaders of churches, but it is also a podium for those who justify their hatred of God and His people by pointing out the speck in someone else's eye. I guess I wrote that as kudos and a warning.
ReplyDeleteWatch, it seems to me that Jax has treated you in a non-Biblical way. As an attorney, I know there are three sides to every story, but just looking at the discipline letters they sent you gives me some idea. I always believed, and my church does this, the believers seeking to discipline should be very specific Biblically about what someone is being disciplined about. May your walk with God be strengthened by your adversity (justified or not).
As to the subject at hand, I am also a sunday school teacher and I beg my classmates to dig into Scripture and see for themselve. I plead with them to "work out their own Salvation". I believe Paul said, many believers are content to get by on milk and refuse to move on to meat. Is it any wonder that a pastor would get a heightened feeling of self-worth?
Despite the fact that I could measure my daily Bible study time in hours and not minutes; my pastor does, by way of the Holy Spirit, enlighten the Scripture for me. I would think that by definition that means he helps me to avoid ignorance. I appreciate that I have a brother who spends his time, not practicing law (add any vocation), but studying Scripture for the purpose of bringing it to me and helping the sick and poor within our church and community.
Anon 9:14
ReplyDeleteAppreciate your comments - post like yours is the reason I respect this blog. Yes, there are a few bad apples in the basket but for the most part there is more good than bad.
The Watchdog was unfairly treated - even more his innocent wife who was served papers never to step on the property of First Baptist. I doubt very much that would have been your recommendation being you say you are an attorney. Brunson and his administration are arrogant and poor role models as they preach what they do not do theirselves.
Anon 9:55
ReplyDeleteIt breaks my heart to read of what is going on down there. I know a long-time southern baptist pastor in jax. He knew Lindsey (loved and respected him), knows Vines (likes and respects him) and knows Brunson (no comment). Brunson seems to be doing more harm than good. FBJ has always been held out to those of us elsewhere as a true movement of God. Seems those days are gone as long as the current pastor is there or until God gets a hold of his heart.
In reading the letters, I don't know if I was more offended by the lack of Biblical cites for the discipline meeting or the section about not attending a child's performance. My church has a very strong history with FBC and unless someone threatened violance, damaged or planned to take part in sin while at the service, I do not believe they would be told not to come. If FBJ truely believed this guy was in sin, why would you not want him to hear the Word? I was just shocked when I read that.
I know I'm digging up old bones, but I have to vent since I have such a love and respect for what FBJ was and I have only read about this in the last few weeks.
FYI. The liberals claimed that the the conservatives were putting the pastor over the priesthood of believers and even Jesus during the conservative take-over. I am a very conservative believer and do not buy their arguments, but thought it might be worth mentioning. I was too young to live those times in the SBC, but it is a fascinating read (Those who might wonder, I have read and enjoyed reading both sides.)
All this stuff that happened to Watchdog was Preordained!!
ReplyDeleteYou cannot blame Mac...God wanted it all to happen!
Do you folks never read your Bible!!
"Ya'll put the E in ignorant."
ReplyDeleteANOTHER TROLL!!
Lynn,
ReplyDeleteThe whole Calvinist vs Arminian thing makes my head hurt. Sure would be a lot easier to just do what the Bible says.
"You do the same thing. You make the argument that it is a "wonder that Paul doesn't write all his letters to these elders/pastors" (i'm paraphrasing you here). Your argument is shaky for the same reasons Frank's argument is...and you, as he does, neglect the reality that Paul did give letters, that are in the NT, to appointed pastors/elders/church leaders, namely Timothy & Titus."
ReplyDeleteTimothy was a pastor and elder? You still ignore the FACT that most letters were NOT addressed to elders.
I can imagine you did find problems with Viola's address to pastors. After all, you are paid to try and make people believe the interpretations that benefits you. And it benefits you for them to believe there are "specially anointed" leaders they must pay and follow.
It is that simple. I did a ton of research on what Viola wrote and he is spot on in his analysis.
What you believe about yourself as a specially anointed leader of the Body is dangerous to your soul. Scripture teaches those who are spiritually mature in the faith are AMONG the priesthood. Not set apart.
The more you write, the more you show your arrogance. In fact, if you were not a paid professional "Christian", you would have more credibility.
Viola does not get paid to preach or teach. Of course he is not real popular with the institutional pastors.
He does write books that people can buy or not buy. I keep trying to picture Paul asking for a salary to teach.
Give me the unpaid guy with calloused knees who does not live in the "pastor bubble"but the real world every day as a sold out believer. Him, I will listen to because he has "stood before". (Biblical definition of leader). He might be a plumber or a factory worker. Does not matter. He KNOWS Jesus Christ personally and has nothing to gain or lose from other believers.
"Briefly, his understanding of the word "ordain" in the NT is incorrect. See John Wylie's post from 1:53."
ReplyDeleteI like John. He is not arrogant but he is, in the end, a paid professional Christian who depends on that interpretation for his income.
Sorry. I really do like John but I have to speak truth. This is your all's "careers".
Folks like me do it for free.
"Next, he then begins a litany of foundational arguments from silence. He says, "note what it doesn't say" over and over again to build the foundations for his argument."
ReplyDeleteHa Ha! That is because so many of YOU "Pastors" claim the scriptures DO say things that it does not say at all! You guys are great at reading INTO the Word what is not there.
"Now, I am not saying that because Dr. MacArthur would agree with Dr. Mohler makes Mohler's sermon correct, however, to use Dr. MacArthur to validate your point on tithing you have to be prepared to have his point used to prove a point against you.
ReplyDeleteKyle"
And don't forget that McArthur recently (past few years) changed his views on ESS. He now supports it. So, he is another one who now lessens Jesus Christ within the Trinity for eternity past and future. It is heresy!
Wonder what else his views have changed on since that is a pretty big one that insults Jesus Christ and His eternal deity.
I disagree with McArthur on a lot. He once said his wife was not allowed to share the Gospel with a man because that would be a woman teaching a man and that is sin.
WD-
ReplyDeleteI am becoming increasingly alarmed by the anti-preacher/pastor tone that some on this blog have taken. I do not think it reflects your position, however there are some who are taking your blog to, "a whole nutha level" in this regard!
I think it is dangerous to totally discount someone's point or conviction simply because they are a pastor who gets paid by a church. I also do not think that we should give added credence to someone's point or conviction because they are a pastor, either.
It becomes a dangerous game we play when we have wholesale judgments because of a few "bad apples".
Kyle
This Calvinistic doctrine may be one reason some preachers no longer visit, or preach about witnessing to the lost. As a matter of fact in some formally strong churches that had strong witnessing programs there is only a remnant of it now. Some of the "old timers" still witness and visit in spite of the leaders. Some preachers talk about intelectual subjects more than salvation messages. And that's all it is talk.
ReplyDeleteKatie;
ReplyDeleteYour comments were spot on. Good job.
Tom is a gentleman, and fun to converse with on this blog. He is, more often than not, correct.
I disagree with him on this one, as you do.
I think that Tom really appreciates those who come on here and say things that are different from what he might have written.
Not everyone is like Tom.
Keep it up.
Here's a thought or two. The lake of fire was made for the Devil and all the angels who followed him. But, unbelievers will be thrown into it after judgement because they rejected Jesus. Jude Jesus' brother wrote in vs 23 "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".
ReplyDeleteThe fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I never hardly ever hear any pastor discussing hell. Maybe a lot of them do not believe in a literal hell or they have failed to put any study time into it. Maybe we should have a little discussion in this area?
Kyle, An anti preacher tone is not dangerous at all. It is wise. Look at Mohler's words again. He, and most other paid professional Christians teach that they are different and more special than other Christians.
ReplyDeleteIn many cases they teach error because they teach that they are to be followed.
Mohler should have told the pastors to teach people to be Bereans instead of followers.
Are you a pastor, Kyle?
Well according to Thayer the word ordain means the following:
ReplyDeleteG2525
καθίστημι
kathistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to set, place, put
1a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
1b) to appoint one to administer an office
1c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
1d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
1e) to conduct or bring to a certain place
1f) to show or exhibit one’s self
1f1) come forward as
And if you look at how the KJV translators dealt with the word probably the word ordain is best defined as "to appoint". That's precisely the way it's used in Titus 1:5 The word never means to acknowledge or recognize. It's translated in the KJV: make, made, set, ordained, appoint etc...
February 15, 2011 1:53 PM
Thanks John. Now what does that mean in a spiritual sense and who are these special humans that are qualified to "appoint"/Ordain others? Is it always people with titles?
If we do not interpret from a spiritual perspective, it always becomes man centered.
Understanding of the function of Holy Spirit in the Body of believers is especially lacking among pastors. And that is because if the Holy Spirit is working, they might get paid.
"Understanding of the function of Holy Spirit in the Body of believers is especially lacking among pastors. And that is because if the Holy Spirit is working, they might get paid."
ReplyDeleteoops, should read, "might NOT get paid."
MacArthur appears to be changing his point of view in favor of ESSin the same way Sproul is changing his point of view in favor of a particular view of creation. At the risk of sounding cynical, it seems to coincide with the fact that they are aging out and they wish to be relevant. These stands are the way to appear relevant and this might lead to more speaking engagements.Or maybe I am just wrong and one night, God appeared to them and said to get with the program.
ReplyDeleteI take most pastors with a grain of salt. You know the health and wealth ones. The espouse if you arn't able to be healed and have no wealth you are out of God's will. Strange isn't it that Jesus left it all to be low and without a bed to lay his head. He became poor for us. So these guys are just hucksters.
ReplyDeleteThe more I learn of their being able to reach down and make those under an IQ of 140 understand the Bible is ridiculos. I have met some that are below 100 that are miles ahead of those that hover over 150. Its called humility. WD has it right when he speaks of these fellows who believe they speak for God. Jesus told us in His Bible to fruit inspectors. Watch what they say and more importantly what they do. If it doesn't match up with the Bible ignore them. Thats why the tares are to grow up with the wheat. God will seperate them in his own time. I can't believe the things that WD finds to enable us all to share our thoughts. You would never be able to say any of this in a Baptist church. You would be run off right quick. Its not about truth, its all about follow the leader wherever he goes.
maybe a bad choice of words but he is right. God has called the to feed (teach) the flock.
ReplyDeleteYou are the one who takes Mohler's comments out of context. It's people like you who mock God's messengers and my friend, God doesn't need either your cynicism or criticism. Web sites like yours make me sick.
ReplyDeleteExcellent post. Thank you very much. Keep it coming you have a large audience here.
ReplyDelete