"I was the Chairman of the committee that crafted the statement concerning Ergun. We never once found that he lied". Evangelist Tim Lee, May 19, 2011-------------------------------
Evangelist Tim Lee was apparently the head of this five-person committee that investigated Caner, as he admitted on my blog last week.
Lee posted numerous statements on this blog in response to my May 18th blog post concerning the departure of Caner from Liberty last week to Arlington Baptist College. Lee posted in my blog comment section in an attempt to refute the claims of my source for the information in my May 18th post entitled "Inside Story: Ergun Caner was Finally Shown the Door by Liberty Officials".
And unbelievably, Tim Lee said at least twice that the committee did not find any instances of Ergun Caner lying. He characterized Caner's deceptions that have been chronicled on the Internet over a 9-year period as "misstatements".
WD readers can browse the comment section of the May 18th blog post for Lee's comments, but I've hyperlinked the comments here for easier access:
Lee Comment #1
Lee Comment #2
Lee Comment #3
Lee Comment #4
Lee Comment #5
I do want to highlight a few of Tim Lee's remarks out of the above, and give some commentary.
In Lee's Comment #1, Lee says that they never found Caner to have lied, not even once:
"I was the Chairman of the committee that crafted the statement concerning Ergun. We never once found that he lied. There was 5 men on the committee and 1 eventually removed himself leaving us with 4."Lee then says again, on behalf of the entire committee, that they never found him to have lied, but only to have "misspoke":
"We, the committee never found one instance of Ergun lying. We did find numerous instances of misspeaking. He was rebuked and reprimanded and I can promise you much more careful about what he says and how he says it."I find this hard to believe that they never found one instance of lying. A very prominent faculty member who was on the committee with Tim Lee contacted me personally during the investigation to obtain complete copies of Ergun Caner's November 2001 sermon at FBC Jax, and the complete set of sermons preached in 2007 at the Ohio Free Will Baptist men's retreat. These sermons contained multiple lies, not "misstatements". Lies like he was raised in Europe, trained in Islamic Jihad, that he learned of American culture by watching television in Istanbul as a child, etc.
Also, the obvious question: why would "misspeaking" require someone to be "rebuked" and "reprimanded" as Lee says the committee did to Caner? This question is especially relevant when Lee characterizes Caner's misstatements by relating them to one of his own, where he simply crossed two words:
"I spoke at Liberty University last year on Veterans Day. I have given my story hundreds if not a couple of thousand times. In front of 10000 people that day I said ' I stepped on a 60lb mine and it blew me several feet in the air ripping both of my bodies off my leg'. Now the mine didn't rip both of my bodies off my leg as I only have one body.It ripped both of my legs off of my body. I had said it right hundreds and hundreds of times but that day I got it wrong. My children were listening back in Dallas via Internet. They were in the floor with laughter. "Would this simple misstatement require Tim Lee to be rebuked and reprimanded? Of course not. This is absolutely NOT what the 9 1/2 years of Caner deceptions were about.
Sadly, Tim Lee portrays Caner as the victim:
"I am extremely proud to call Ergun friend. There are times when he might have been better to have had an affair or to commit a homosexual act or to rob a bank. I believe the brethren would have been more forgiving."
This is so twisted. Ergun Caner lied to the congregation at FBC Jax in November 2001 right after 9/11 to portray himself as a former terrorist and this was the beginning of nearly a decade of deceit in churches all over America. Videos for sale of Caner's testimony even as late as April 2010 portrayed Caner as a "former terrorist". Caner is not the victim. In fact, it was Caner's friends who went on the offensive and mercilessly attacked James White who was the most vocal minister calling for Caner to repent. But Tim Lee does not address that pathetic aspect of this saga.
What Tim Lee's comments tell us is that it is no wonder the committee has maintained 11 months of silence. They know that to defend Caner, or to defend their confusing statement issued last June would just raise more questions, and further subject their university to criticism.
My May 18th post ended with this statement:
"And we can at least be thankful that he [Caner] is out of the SBC, and that some folks at Liberty in the end did the right thing. "
I stand by everything I wrote in that article, but I do retract that last statement, thanks to Tim Lee's explanation that the committee did not find any lies. Apparently they did NOT do the right thing, according to Tim Lee. Investigatory committee, I tried to give you credit, but Tim Lee would not let me.
The king still has no clothes.
does anyone remember the guy who posted as 'squirrel'? He is a pastor who has a blog 'squirrel of Babylon"
ReplyDeleteHe said he was contacted by those investigating Caner. The squirrel knows Caner lied...a lot. He even wrote a post about being contacted.
But Tim Lee does not think Caner lied??
Talk about delusions. The ego's of these guys will not allow them to admit they promoted and supported a charlatan.
If he never lied then why was Caner demoted? For what reason?
These guys have no shame and we are fools to call them brothers.
Tim Lee is Caner's James Carville. These guys act more like Clinton every day.
ReplyDeleteThese men are NOT friends of Caner's. A real friend would have told him to step down and get his heart right with God.
ReplyDeleteLiars do not inherit the Kingdom. It is obvious these guys do not know the Word.
These men are NOT friends of Caner's. A real friend would have told him to step down and get his heart right with God.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is the whole point. It was originally the whole point of exposing Ergun. It was done layer by layer in hopes that he would see we had the whole truth and he would possibly get right with God. Instead he and his enablers chose to lie more by saying Caner didn't lie.
These people are on dope!
ReplyDeleteTim Lee is a true man of God.
ReplyDeleteErvin Never Lied!
He stretched the truth.
He never meant any harm.
That's a fact.
Bark up another tree....dog.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhat is with your sick obsession with Dr. Caner?
ReplyDeleteYou called Tim Lee pathetic, thats laughable. You know whats pathetic? A grown "man" who claims Christianity who's hate for a fellow believer has driven him to spend countless hours blogging about that fellow believer.
Is this blogging (which anyone can do and takes zero courage) evidence of salt and light? Would reading your blog drive a seeker into a local church? No sir, there is nothing pathetic about Tim Lee standing up for a friend and fellow believer. What's pathetic is a blogger in the safety of his house behind his keyboard, typing away hate about a brother in Christ.
Let it go.
Von - never called Tim Lee "pathetic". What I called "pathetic", is how Ergun Caner's friends had a sick obsession with attacking fellow Christian James White.
ReplyDeleteYet you call me pathetic. What is salt and light about you calling me pathetic? Your comment sounds awfully hateful towards me. You didn't give your name, and you hide your profile, yet chastise me for blogging behind my keyboard.
More confusion displayed by Caner supporters.
I was the Chairman of the committee that crafted the statement concerning Ergun. We never once found that he lied. There was 5 men on the committee and 1 eventually removed himself leaving us with 4."
ReplyDeleteHa! The problem is that there were no WOMEN on the committee! I've said since day one that Ergun is a pathological liar. Only a pathological liar would stand up and tell lies when being recorded by video and/or audio.
Maybe LU should have used some people from their prized debate team to evaluate Ergun's "misstatements". They would have torn Ergun to shreds.
The SBC is screwed up! What idiots!
ReplyDeleteBirds of a feather flock together.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Tim Lee has some truth stretching in his bag of tricks as well? What are we supposed to think? A grown man denying a mountain of evidence in front of his face.
I hope others on Liberty Mountain see this post, and consider how their leaders have handled and continue to handle this whole mess.
Here is the blog article by Gene Clyatt: http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/07/difficult-confession.html
ReplyDeleteIt worth the reread.
What has always bothered me about the current condition of the human race, especially here in America, is the way things are spun when it comes to truth, etc.
ReplyDeleteWe used to used words and phrases for untruthfulness like:
1. Stretch the truth.
2. Little white lie.
3. A little fib.
Now in society we used words and phrases like:
1. Mis-spoke.
2. Spin the truth.
3. I was misunderstood.
Don't everyone out there act so pious either. We all do it to some degree because we don't want to hurt someone else. Does this dress make me look fat-NO.
Daddy am I smart-YES. Do you like working here-YES.
But it does bother me, as it does everyone else that is human, that as humans we cannot be truthful 100% of the time.
let me see if I can get this straight.... anon is comparing 'do I look fat in.this dress' to 'where were you born'.
ReplyDeleteone is a matter of opinion. can you guess which one?
No disrespect for Mr. Lee but the general population who have heard Caner speak do believe he lied and Mr. Lee will never make us believe any different.
ReplyDeleteCaner is a pathological liar - it is he that has a sick obsession and will not stop his lying because he believes what he speaks to be truthful.
The sad part is people like Mr. Lee, Jerry Vines, Mac Brunson all have given their blessing for him to continue in the field of education to our young people. Sad!
not a lot of deep thinking going on......which is why Liberty is still in business. I know I won't think much of a Liberty degree since they kept and.protected that liar for so long. It taints the whole place because it is top down. How many like Lee and Caner are there at Liberty?
ReplyDeleteWebsters says the definition of a "lie" is:
ReplyDelete"false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood."
Ergun, confess it!
Tim, confess it!
Pride is such a ugly thing.
"one is a matter of opinion. can you guess which one?"
ReplyDeleteANON, YOU MISSED MY POINT.
A lie is a lie no matter if you lie and tell your wife she looks good in that dress. It is still a lie, and not a matter of opinion.
Do I think Caner lied: ABSOLUTELY.
Do I think that anyone on or off this blog do not lie at least on a somewhat regular basis: absolutely.
Do I think that you lie or would lie: absolutely.
What my point was is the sorry way that society has degenerated to try and cover up a LIE and calling it MIS-SPEAKING!
What ever happened to calling a spade a spade?
SIN SIN SIN and that won't change until Jesus really comes again and Harold Camping certainly does not know the date nor does Jesus.
another man might think your wife looks slimmer in the same dress. your example is flawed. it is after all YOUR opinion about the dress and how she looks. sometimes our 'opinions' on such things are best kept to ourselves.
ReplyDeletenow, would you lie about where you were born?
basic logic is in short supply today.
Funny how you didnt defend yourself against what I said, all you did was redirect back at me. How can you defend your hate and obsession though? Why do you use your time on this? It is very very sad what you are doing.
ReplyDeleteAnd I didnt hide my profile, it would be hard to hide something that doesnt exist. I dont use this site
"Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, violent assertiveness and slander, along with all spitefulness.
ReplyDeleteInstead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted; and forgive each other, just as in the Messiah God has also forgiven you." -Eph 4:32
Blam
Katie said...
ReplyDelete"Here is the blog article by Gene Clyatt: http://babyloniansquirrel.blogspot.com/2010/07/difficult-confession.html
"It worth the reread."
Thanks, Katie, for linking to my blog. That post is actually a satire.
The evidence is laid out here. And I wrote about being contacted by the investigation here.
I wrote a lot on Caner last spring.
[My apologies to the Watchdog for the excessive link-trolling...]
Squirrel
Von,
ReplyDeleteThere is not hate here! Not once have I heard anyone say they hate Caner or Lee.
The obsession is that Caner is a pathological liar and his supporters are supporting him. The problem is that this man is looked upon as a leader and he is looked upon as a leader based on lies and deception.
Telling people his "madrassa, his training center" was in Beirut when he first proclaimed that he was "raised in Europe" and trained there in Islamic Youth Jihad when he came to America is an out right lie. This is just one of the many!
He has been confronted personally and by email and those who have loved him as a brother in Christ tried to talk to him about the "factual statements that are self-contradictory" and all he and his supporters did were ignore the request and try to spin back on those of us who want the truth spoken to our students and in our churches.
James,
ReplyDeleteTell me this then, what good does continued writing and anger bring to the world or the church? Could the time of a believer be spent in better service to G-d then to post blog after blog trashing another believer?
Its obvious you all do not like Dr. Caner which is fine, but it is quite sad that you all would spend so much time and energy on this when it is obvious it is producing nothing good. You will not get Dr. Caner to apologize, its as simple as that. So answer me this: what good is being brought out by your perpetual anger toward him? Do you think G-d is applauding this?
"How can you defend your hate and obsession though?"
ReplyDeleteVon, that is YOUR opinion of what constitutes "hate" and "obession".
Caner lying about where he was born and raised is NOT opinion but verifiable fact.
Try being "obsessed" with verifiable facts instead of being so silly and illogical.
Tell me this then, what good does continued writing and anger bring to the world or the church? Could the time of a believer be spent in better service to G-d then to post blog after blog trashing another believer?
ReplyDeleteIts obvious you all do not like Dr. Caner which is fine, but it is quite sad that you all would spend so much time and energy on this when it is obvious it is producing nothing good. You will not get Dr. Caner to apologize, its as simple as that. So answer me this: what good is being brought out by your perpetual anger toward him? Do you think G-d is applauding this?
May 24, 2011 12:29 PM
Von, you are simply trying to convince people that truth is NOT good in certain situations. And that lies are acceptable when done by someone YOU like. And you do this by using ad hominem.
Is this what passes for Christian education at Liberty?
Von,
ReplyDeleteIn my observation, FBC Jax Watchdog "hates" the apparent lack of integrity exhibited by individuals who have power.
Leaders of universities, denominations, and churches have power. Power to bring change to situations and people's lives. Sometimes they wield their power intentionally (for better and for worse). Sometimes their power has influence in and of itself -- any random comment or action on their part can unwittingly bring influence (for better and for worse) because people listen to and watch them.
It seems very plain and obvious that the deeply troubling issue here is the fact that these power brokers lack integrity. Whatever fruit they produce and the results of their influence can no longer be trustworthy. It can no longer be trusted to be a good thing, but rather a dangerous thing. And we are all subject to their influence in one way or another, no matter how indirect.
"Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, violent assertiveness and slander, along with all spitefulness.
ReplyDeleteInstead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted; and forgive each other, just as in the Messiah God has also forgiven you." -Eph 4:32
Blam
May 24, 2011 11:52 AM
Von, So your comments here concerning the blog and commenters are examples of the above? Including "blam"?
This is a perfect example of the illogic and proof texting of Liberty/Caner supporters.
Van, Caner does not need to apologize. He needs to repent. Big time. His soul is at stake. If you really love him, you will tell him that.
ReplyDeleteVon - I don't hate Caner, and am not obsessed with Caner. I am doing exactly what you are doing. You are posting here to tell me that I've done wrong, and need to repent and stop doing what you think I'm doing is harmful to Christianity and to Ergun Caner. Why would I assume you hate me, or obsessed with me? I assume you are a Christian, you have quoted me scripture and thus I would be a fool to call you a hater and obsessed.
ReplyDeleteIf you take the time to go back in this blog, you'll see I started writing about the Caner debacle back in March or April of last year when I went back and listened to a sermon he preached in November 2001 at my former church when I was present with my family. I was there, and know that he purposely led our entire congregation to believe he was a trained terrorist who was saved just in the nick of time before he blew something up. When I listened to that sermon again, and examined the mountain of evidence that it was mostly a huge deception, It was then I realized he came in to our church and flat-out lied to us about his background and training and childhood, while my pastor sat behind him applauding and nodding his head in approval. I was not going to stay silent. I released the excerpts from that sermon on my blog, and I was the one that provided that sermon to the LU committee.
But I don't hate Ergun Caner. I've written before that I consider him a believer and very talented and gifted, but that he for the good of many, many people should publicly apologize for his lies and deception.
So go ahead and write it all off as just "hatred" and an "obsession". That is what we all have come to expect from Caner supporters over the past year.
And please, don't talk about people hiding behind their keyboards "hating" people, until you post your full name and city. Thanks.
How do you not know that Dr Caner hasnt repented before G-d? Maybe he has but he has youre assuming he hasnt. I have a feeling no matter what I say, you will continue to flip the script back on to me. Maybe you dont hate Dr Caner, I'll concede that but I stand by that it appears you are obsessed with this.
ReplyDeleteSo continue to do what you do and justify it in your own mind and to your followers here. Also continue to ignore my questions as to what good this brings to the church or G-d's glory.
Von, once again you use little logic. Caner lied to hundreds of audiences in Chrisendom and to the armed services. He also profited from lying while presenting himself as a Christian leader.
ReplyDeleteI could ask you why you think, given those verifiable facts, you think he should not publicly admit his 9 years of lying.
This brings glory to God because believers and non-believers alike see that there are people who call themselves Christians who are willing to call for truthfulness and integrity from those who present themselves as leaders and trainers of other Christians. We are willing to do it, even in the face of scorn and ridicule from religious zealots who are more concerned with appearances and institutions than they are simple things like honesty and truth and integrity.
ReplyDeleteI stand with Paige Patterson on this. He preached a sermon at SWBTS in April chapel and called for preachers to have the highest level of truthfulness in their sermons, their illustrations, their resumes, etc. And his closing statement (I'm paraphrasing):
"If the world would see that Christian leaders are truthful and have integrity, they would beat a path to our doors."
Amen. And when Caner doesn't stand and publicly renounce his deceptions, it brings disgrace to God.
Von, all truth....even negative truth brings God glory. Sweeping continual lies under the rug brings God glory?
ReplyDeleteVon, do you think more highly of Caner than you do of the reputation of the Saviour? It is his great name and character that is being assualted by Caner.
ReplyDeleteWhen he stands and proclaims the gospel message in one breath, then spouts some lie about his life, it causes HIS name to stink. Check the OT, G-D had severe judgement on Israel for profaning his name with their sorry conduct.
That's what is at stake, not your rock star preacher.
Garlando
Squirrel,
ReplyDeleteYes.. I knew that particular article was satire. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I keep up pretty regularly with your writings. Even when the subject is difficult, your good grace shines through.
You've been a blessing to many, many people.
In His Grace.....
Katie,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for those kind words. You have no idea how timely your encouragement is today!
Squirrel
http://www.normangeisler.net/indefenseofcaner.html
ReplyDeletehttp://www.normangeisler.net/infurtherdefenseofcaner.html
My friend and I were actually talking about this very subject today at lunch.
ReplyDeleteIt is not misspeaking when you cannot factually give dates and/or events in your own life. How has any of his defenders reconciled his claims of being trained in jihad while being barely able to speak when we have pictures of him in high school yearbooks placing him in the drama club? Not one of his defenders even attempted to engage in primary sources which often contradicted his own primary sources of either video or audio presentations.
The problem is this: Even if he has apologized for his actions, he is not free from the consequences of those actions.
I would like Tim Lee to answer this. I would like him to explain to us how it's not lying to claim you're being trained in terrorist activities when documents and photographs place him in Ohio. Did we all miss the largest active terrorist cell in the U.S.? Otherwise, just what kind of summer camps do they have in Ohio?
Also, why isn't he on retainer as an expert for federal agencies? Surely he'd have useful insight into these training camps, especially if they're located in suburban Ohio.
So Tim Lee, answer this one question, this one major contradiction around which his entire ministry was formed and you'll find me to be your fiercest advocate.
Explain how you all handled the legal court documents, the high school yearbooks, all of which dispute what Ergun has written in books and spoken in public, and I'll join your side and help defend Ergun and his ministry.
Also, while you're at it, explain how you can misspeak while writing books, it's not like it doesn't get edited a couple of times before printing.
Or just admit that politics and appearances are more important than dealing with sin and pastoral malfeasance and we'll just move along...
Maybe it would help to view Caner as an entertainer. Therefore, he is telling his audience what they want to hear.
ReplyDeleteMaybe this is what we need to do with all of the Christian Celebrities our churches parade in front of us. Think of them more as entertainers or inspirational speakers. Don’t get caught up in the details of whether something they say is true or not but rather concentrate on how the message inspires you.
Moving on with some random thoughts.
Stretching the truth and telling a half truth is, as Dr Rogers used to put it, a whole lie. Now I know, “everyone lies” as House puts it but I certainly have not become a celebrity or profited handsomely from any of mine. Frankly, I am quite ashamed of mine.
If, as many seem to assert, Caner has repented would he not also need to make restitution for all that he has profited from his intentional misstatements and misrepresentations? Isn’t this kind of like a contract and if you make intentional misstatement and misrepresentations in a contract does that not void the contract and require restitution to the injured parties.
I still comeback to one of my previous posts, “If all Caner did was misspeak then why was he rebuked and reprimanded? This seems very severe for simply misspeaking.” I would hate to think I would be rebuked and reprimanded for all of the simple mistakes I make.
Anonymous (5:17 PM) posted the URLs to two defenses of Caner by Norman Geisler.
ReplyDeleteI looked at Geisler's defense of Ergun Caner in Historiography, Primary Source Material, and Norman Geisler. Geisler (and the others who so vocally defend Ergun Caner) never deal with any of the evidence that was painstakingly assembled by myself and others.
Sorry for repeatedly pointing folks to my blog, but I've dealt with all this stuff in detail months ago.
Squirrel
Oh, by the way, Watchdog, James White quoted from this post on today's The Dividing Line webcast.
ReplyDeleteSquirrel
See, I can link to other people's stuff, too... :o)
Alpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Today on the Dividing Line: Evangelist Tim Lee on Ergun Caner's "Misstatements," Harold Camping Continues His Attack on the Faith
ReplyDeleteHa! The problem is that there were no WOMEN on the committee!
ReplyDeleteThey were all busy vacuuming behind the pulpit.
Maybe this is what we need to do with all of the Christian Celebrities our churches parade in front of us. Think of them more as entertainers or inspirational speakers.
ReplyDeleteI already do. Some of these guys provide great entertainment. And Joel Osteen is one of the best inspirational (or motivational) speakers out there, but he's no preacher.
Ervin Never Lied!
ReplyDeleteHe stretched the truth.
He never meant any harm.
That's a fact.
I'm glad Ervin didn't lie, but Ergun did. And I know he meant no harm, but it was done to promote himself to a higher level, which it did worldwide. It caused much more harm than anyone in Ergun Caner's camp wants to admit or see. That's a fact. He did much more than stretch the truth. I dare you to Google his name if you are so interested in the truth. He totally and completely lied. And that's a fact. Just don't put in the name Ervin when you Google, that could be the reason you find nothing. :)
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"The problem is that there were no WOMEN on the committee!"
Are you joking, only a pastor's wife would qualify.
And you know they would only do and say what the Anointed tells them.
Here Steve Gaines, who has Donna Gaines appointed to the Resurgence committee...
because of Donna Gaines it passed
but you can see here that she is only a puppet doing Steve Gaines bidding
Donna Gaines and Steve Gaines Leading Prayer at SBC 2010
The posts by Tim Lee do not state that he was part of the investigation committee (your post says he was apparently part of a five person investigative committee, something that should not be implied from Lee's statement.) Lee's post simply states that he was on the committee which crafted a statement. (I was a fraud investigator for ten years. I conducted hundreds of interviews and interrogations. i read and listen to people's words very carefully now.) Lee's post only states that he was on a committee regarding the crafting of a statement, not on an investigation committee.)
ReplyDeleteLee's post does imply that he had seen some information to determine that Ergun made only misstatements. This can cause one to believe that Lee was part of the investigation committee.
Lee's posts cause some questions to come to mind -
Was Tim Lee on the investigation committee? If so:
What was the scope of the investigation? (Meaning - what questions did the investigation look into?)
What information or evidence was gathered and reviewed?
Who was interviewed?
If Lee was not part of the investigative committee:
What information was presented for review to determine that Ergun only made misstatements?
How many examples of misstatements were provided for review?
That's just some that come to mind. Greg
I think calling lies "mis-statements" just makes the person sound like someone who will not be straight-forward with people.
ReplyDeleteIt is so very obvious that lies were told. Those who call lies something else lose their credibility and the trust of others.
People listening to Caner's defenders are truly not that dumb. They can plainly see what's happening.
"It is so very obvious that lies were told. Those who call lies something else lose their credibility and the trust of others."
ReplyDeleteIt depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."
ReplyDeleteHuh? People weary of dealing with Clinton-types, where you do have to have the ears of a lawyer when someone is speaking.
When you must listen very carefully to what someone says, you can know that their intent is to deceive those who are not listening carefully. I think we should reward those who are CLEAR in what they say, vs. those where you have to WONDER what they are saying. If someone is not trying to be crystal-clear, they are probably trying to deceive.
"When you must listen very carefully to what someone says, you can know that their intent is to deceive those who are not listening carefully. I think we should reward those who are CLEAR in what they say, vs. those where you have to WONDER what they are saying. If someone is not trying to be crystal-clear, they are probably trying to deceive."
ReplyDeleteSounds like you are calling Jon L. Estes a deceiver.
"Sounds like you are calling Jon L. Estes a deceiver"
ReplyDeleteThe chiefest.
1 Tim. 1:15 (NKJV)
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
I am not 100% sure Caner intended to deceive at first. I think he's a pathological liar who gets caught up in the story and just makes stuff up as he goes. Eventually he found himself in a tangled web when people started comparing video and audio of his speeches.
ReplyDeleteHe's not any less wrong, and cetainly he needs to be held accountable. He should not be in a position of Christian leadership if he can't tell the truth consistently.
1 Tim. 1:15 (NKJV)
ReplyDeleteThis is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
May 25, 2011 1:24 PM
Jon, You make it sound like Paul STAYED that way after being born again.
Jon, you stole my line! ;)
ReplyDeleteNot sure if we can correctly determine if Caner is pathological but I think he fell into the same trap almost any of us would.
ReplyDeleteExaggerated truth = more books sold = more $ = an even more exaggerated truth = even more books sold = more speaking engagements = more $ =…..= more $....= more $...
Who among us could resist such temptation?
That’s the reason why we have to be truly accountable to each other and not hang out with those who enable us to not do what is right.
"Jon, You make it sound like Paul STAYED that way after being born again."
ReplyDeleteI don't interpret the passage the way you think it sounds. I think simply Paul recognized who he was in the scheme of things as a follower of Jesus.
Do you think Paul was saying "this is the way I am now that I am saved" as you read the words he wrote. It doesn't sound that way to me.
"Do you think Paul was saying "this is the way I am now that I am saved" as you read the words he wrote. It doesn't sound that way to me."
ReplyDeleteThis came out wrong.
Do you think Paul was saying "this is not the way I am now that I am saved" as you read the words he wrote. It doesn't sound that way to me.
Sorry for the typo.
"Do you think Paul was saying "this is the way I am now that I am saved" as you read the words he wrote. It doesn't sound that way to me."
ReplyDeleteThis came out wrong.
Do you think Paul was saying "this is not the way I am now that I am saved" as you read the words he wrote. It doesn't sound that way to me.
Sorry for the typo.
May 25, 2011 4:09 PM
You cannot be serious. Paul was persecuting Christians, throwing women in prison AFTER he was saved?
We are all sinners...even our thoughts are sinful but do we remain in continual sin after knowing the truth (liars) after we are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Is there never a time we grow in Holiness? Is there never a time the HOly Spirit convicts one of sin?
Perhaps we do expect too much from our "Christian" leaders. We should accept they might be congenital liars, adulterers, predators, etc. But should we pay them to be so "human"?
I thought they had special "anointing" because they are "called".
So, you think Paul was saying he was the same sinner, sinning the same way AFTER he was saved? Is that how you read it?
Looking forward to your parsing as to excuse continual willful sin by those in leadership.
"Who among us could resist such temptation? "
ReplyDeleteSerious believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Some people actually love God more than they love the world.
"The chiefest."
ReplyDelete"1 Tim. 1:15 (NKJV)
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."
Christ is the example we are to follow. He never deceived.
"I don't interpret the passage the way you think it sounds."
ReplyDeleteLOL!
This is Jon at his word parsing best.
It's amazing how much word parsing, scripture twisting and proof texting Jon will do to try to enable a pathological liar (as long as he has a reiligious title).
ReplyDelete1 Tim. 1:15 (NKJV)
ReplyDeleteThis is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
May 25, 2011 1:24 PM
Hi Jon, I like to look at context and in 1 Tim we see some important context for this proof text you offered.
Here are the 2 verses preceeding your proof text:
13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
Here is the verse AFTER your proof text:
16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
We know the context of 1 Tim is about problems in the church at Ephesus and Paul talks about those deceieved out of ignorance (himself) and those who deceive on purpose (Hy and Al)
To try and make the inference that Paul remained as he was before salvation is quite a stretch. Even with a proof text.
"You cannot be serious. Paul was persecuting Christians, throwing women in prison AFTER he was saved?"
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was the issue of any specific sin but that He was worthless on his own.
"We are all sinners...even our thoughts are sinful but do we remain in continual sin after knowing the truth (liars) after we are saved and have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Is there never a time we grow in Holiness? Is there never a time the HOly Spirit convicts one of sin?"
Paul recognized his spiritual growth, as we can see in what he wrote. I think Paul was convicted of the minutest of sins. I think he hated sin so much because he loved Jesus so much. Any little sin caused him to see himself as the chiefest of sinners. Oh, that we may be so sensitive to the Holy Spirit dealing with out sin.
"Perhaps we do expect too much from our "Christian" leaders. We should accept they might be congenital liars, adulterers, predators, etc. But should we pay them to be so "human"?"
The all to be holy is for all believers. How can we expect more than holiness from a fellow saint? Leader or not.
"I thought they had special "anointing" because they are "called"."
I've never said this, I don't believe. They may have a different responsibility and role because they were called to a specific task. Of course, I believe all anointing is a special anointing.
So, you think Paul was saying he was the same sinner, sinning the same way AFTER he was saved? Is that how you read it?
"Looking forward to your parsing as to excuse continual willful sin by those in leadership."
No parsing. I haven't excused anyone sin. I'm to busy dealing with my own. I have though spoken positive about Ergun where positives can and should be spoken. If I need to call Ergun out for some sin, I'll speak to him about it, not you or anyone else on this forum. I refuse to join in on the verbal stoning of Ergun here. Scripture leads me to do otherwise.
Matthew 18 deals with restoration. How far will one go biblically to see a brother restored? To him, sit outside his door, wait? Write a few emails and since you get no response you take the right to stand on the cyber corner and spew condemnations his way. Nope, I'll stick with dealing directly with the person.
"No parsing. I haven't excused anyone sin. I'm to busy dealing with my own. I have though spoken positive about Ergun where positives can and should be spoken. If I need to call Ergun out for some sin, I'll speak to him about it, not you or anyone else on this forum. I refuse to join in on the verbal stoning of Ergun here. Scripture leads me to do otherwise."
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to come to a logical conclusion when you start with a false premise. Your first two words are a false premise.
So, you can speak about him on this forum in a positive light but not give correction when it is obvious that correction is needed. Completely illogical and unbiblical.
But you have not refused to join in the verbal stoning of the blog author and commenters. So what's the difference? Oh, I get it - a reilgious title.
Scripture leads you to confront sin and not play favorties.
"To try and make the inference that Paul remained as he was before salvation is quite a stretch. Even with a proof text."
ReplyDeleteNo inference at all. I have stated that this is who Paul saw himself as without Christ. It seems we are saying the same thing but in a different manner.
I was called a deceiver and responded, the chiefest - and used the verse in context to make my point.
Without Christ - absolutely the chiefest.
"Matthew 18 deals with restoration. How far will one go biblically to see a brother restored? To him, sit outside his door, wait? Write a few emails and since you get no response you take the right to stand on the cyber corner and spew condemnations his way. Nope, I'll stick with dealing directly with the person."
ReplyDeleteLike most of your other ideas, they come from the culture and not the Bible.
You don't understand the idea of Biblical restoration.
Biblical restoration comes after repentence and an asking of forgiveness. Similar to a two party check.
If the sinner is not repentent, the fellowship can't be restored.
And haven't you been on the cyber corner spewing condemnations (sometimes dozens of times a day) for you to be condeming others of doing the same thing?
Jon: You don't get it do you? And that is why this will continue to go on until people begin speaking out, which is what we did. Sexual clergy abuse will still be happening unless people speak out, which so many of us have. To say not to say anything Jon is the problem, not the saying of sin, but people like you who try and tell us not to say anything. That just won't work anymore.
ReplyDeleteWe are not the guilty party as you are trying to portray, the men who committed these sins are the guilty ones, not those who speak out. Get it now?
"I was called a deceiver and responded"
ReplyDeleteIt depends on what you mean by "deceiver" and "responded"
"So, you can speak about him on this forum in a positive light but not give correction when it is obvious that correction is needed. Completely illogical and unbiblical."
ReplyDeleteNothing illogical or unbiblical at all. Where does scripture give me the right to call out someones sin and not go to them personally?
Scripture does teach us to be edifiers. A positive word concerning any brother or sister in Christ should be found edifying.
If you think correction is needed how do you see this forum bringing correction? Nothing done here is correcting any problem but it does seem to be causing some. This is unbiblical and illogical.
Jon: I personally would prefer you not say anything rather than give us this guilt trip dribble. And that is what it is dribble, using the Bible out of context.
ReplyDeleteScripture interprets scripture Jon and nowhere does the Bible say to be silent against crimes committed in the church and certainly not against sin. You of all people know that, yet you continue on with this load of garbage.
"To say not to say anything Jon is the problem, not the saying of sin, but people like you who try and tell us not to say anything. That just won't work anymore."
ReplyDeleteThe part in bold above is a lie.
You won't find me saying for anyone to be quiet but rather to speak out to the person. In sexual abuse cases, to the authorities. If a pastor won't, then you should.
"We are not the guilty party as you are trying to portray, the men who committed these sins are the guilty ones, not those who speak out."
I do believe there is a guilt here. A guilt of gossip and slander.
Speak out but where does speaking out among everyone but the one who needs speaking too get you?
"Get it now?"
Oh, I got it some time ago.
God still hates one who sows discord among brethren. Maybe that is why he set it up for us to go to our brothers when they have offended us. And yes, it is a church issue and we are the church.
As for this blog not correcting problems....are you kidding me? I think they have solved or at least began to solve many problems that we in the Christian community have. That bugs you too I would wager or you wouldn't give them the time of day.
ReplyDeleteProblems is not the word I would use however, corruption and deep seated sin are the words that should be used in place of problems.
Jon - Some of us DID go to Caner personally first, as I already said.
ReplyDeleteHe ignored us. We didn't have any financial leverage over him, so we were dismissed.
His pastor even ignored me when I emailed him privately.
Go ahead Jon, email Caner and ask him about this situation. If you are willing to ignore his lies, he'll respond to you apparently. But if you are asking him about the discrepancies, you'll just get *crickets*.
The part in bold above is a lie.
ReplyDeleteTo keep it out of the public eye is to trying to tell us to be silent. Come on Jon, let's cut to the chase here. It was taken privately, you know this, it is documented, and as you can see it produced nothing. You also know this. No one in this ever set out to make Ergun take a fall, he did that on his own. No one made Ergun lie, he did that on his own. We wanted reconciliation and repentance with no repercussions for Ergun, that too is documented. Again, he did that for himself. We could not allow him to go out and deceive anyone anymore. Going public was the only way. We did not go against scripture. In fact the way the whole thing came together so quickly with people volunteering information and others using their resources to find out the truth, I am going to be bold and say God was in this from day one. I believe that 100%.
As for gossip and slander, that is garbage Jon. It's the truth and Ergun was very public about it. We did the right thing by making it public, and I for one would do it again.
As I said, take your guilt trip somewhere else Jon, we aren't buying what you are selling, and we never have.
"No parsing. I haven't excused anyone sin."
ReplyDeleteJon, Then I have no idea why you commented on 1 Tim in the first place in the context of this post. It seems to make no sense or you are changing your focus based upon responses you get.
" I'll speak to him about it, not you or anyone else on this forum. I refuse to join in on the verbal stoning of Ergun here. Scripture leads me to do otherwise."
I am sure the guy in 1 Corin 5 felt the same way since everyone in the Corinthian church knew who Paul was referring to when the letter was read aloud. Probably Diotrephes felt the same way.
Seems "scripture" has done the opposite of what you claim above. Caner is certainly not "deceived out of ignorance".
Caner lied publicly from stages to thousands of believers over a span of 9 years. To claim this is a "private" matter is disingenuous.
"Matthew 18 deals with restoration. How far will one go biblically to see a brother restored? To him, sit outside his door, wait? Write a few emails and since you get no response you take the right to stand on the cyber corner and spew condemnations his way. Nope, I'll stick with dealing directly with the person."
We continue to see instance after instance of those paid in ministry ignoring facts in this matter. Hearts are hard and sin has been dumbed down. Matthew 18 is thrown out but hardly fits the venue. Which church shall we take him before? Yours, mine, or the one that supported his lying for 9 years?
Ironically, Paul did not use Matthew 18 with the guy in 1 Corin 1 or John with Diotrephes. Because it did not fit. If you read Matthew 18, notice it says "if your brother sins against YOU. Personal offenses.
Caner is a public teacher of the Word like Peter was when he was rebuked publicly by Paul.
I agree with the commenter above that if people really loved Caner they would publicly rebuke him like Paul did to Peter since Peter's error was public. So has been Caners.
" A guilt of gossip and slander. "
ReplyDeleteHow does one gossip about what is public knowledge and verifiable fact?
Slander has to be a lie. Point out the lies here. And make sure you can prove they are lies like Caner's lies were proven.
Readers: Pastors throw this out all the time to try and shut up the pew sitters. You aresupposed to feel worse than the guy who lies for aliving....
What a great gig these Christian leaders have!
"f you think correction is needed how do you see this forum bringing correction? "
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, Liberty was going to do NOTHING. Even said so until the story grew from blogging.
Then he gets demoted.
Now, I am hoping and praying more young people will not be influenced by this charlatan. Caner needs to get out of the limelight he loves and get right with God.
The Caner defenders sound like the Clinton Administration. So do you, Jon. Clinton redefined what constitutes sex for a whole generation. Caner is redefining what it is to lie for a whole generation of professing believers.
And Satan loves it.
"No inference at all. I have stated that this is who Paul saw himself as without Christ. It seems we are saying the same thing but in a different manner."
ReplyDeleteAs usual Jon, you are changing your context to fit the responses. It is one reason very few people trust you except 'wishIhadknown' who thinks AR Rogers was a saint.
Jon is the poster boy for why you should NEVER follow a pastor.
ReplyDelete"Discord usually takes first hold upon the thorns; it is nurtured among the hypocrites
ReplyDeleteand base professors in the church, and away it goes among the righteous, blown by
the winds of hell, and no one knows where it may end."
"Divisions in Churches never begin with those full of love to the Saviour."
"Besides, Satan always hates Christian fellowship; it is his policy to keep Christians
apart. Anything which can divide saints from one another he delights in. He attaches far more importance to godly intercourse than we do."
-Charles Spurgeon
BTW: Dr. Ergun Caner(satire): Your videos were terrific. I am a fan. FYI. :)
ReplyDelete"Discord usually takes first hold upon the thorns; it is nurtured among the hypocrites
ReplyDeleteand base professors in the church, and away it goes among the righteous, blown by
the winds of hell, and no one knows where it may end."
"Divisions in Churches never begin with those full of love to the Saviour."
"Besides, Satan always hates Christian fellowship; it is his policy to keep Christians
apart. Anything which can divide saints from one another he delights in. He attaches far more importance to godly intercourse than we do."
-Charles Spurgeon
May 25, 2011 7:07 PM
"Saints" are not Christian leaders who lie for 9 years to thousands of Christian audiences.
The "liar" sowed the discord. And the "liar" is taking many with him as we have seen on this thread.
"Nothing illogical or unbiblical at all. Where does scripture give me the right to call out someones sin and not go to them personally?"
ReplyDelete1 Corinthian 5
3 John
Galatians 2
1 Tim 1
To name a few.
Are you saying John was in sin for making Diotrephes error known in a letter for all to read for 2000 years?
Was Paul in sin for rebuking Peter publicly (he did not evn try to go "private") for his public behavior?
Caner's lies were public and lasted for 9 years to thousands in audiences all over the US.
To even try to say Matthew 18 is the correct way to handle this is to not understand that passage at all. It says, if your brother sins against YOU. (offends) Then go to him...
Caner's sins were not personal offenses against me. They were lies fed to believers all over the place and to those outside the Body (armed services) for many years.
Don't you wonder why Paul did not do something like Matthew 18 to Peter? Or John? Or why Paul recommended they throw the guy in the Corinthian church out instead of advising them to go to him privately, first?
Because all the above was very public.
Instead, they wrote about to others. Would you claim it was Gossip? Slander?
Anonymous May 24, 2011 7:57 AM said...
ReplyDeleteHa! The problem is that there were no WOMEN on the committee!
Now, now Anon -- we all know that women aren't supposed to be in positions of leadership because they are more easily deceived than men. Right?
(TIC)
I admire Tim Lee's loyalty toward and support of his friend. But it's that very friendship that makes him less than the best person to make an unbiased judgment in this matter. It's likely the same is true of the other men on the committee. Makes me wonder why one of the original 5 removed himself.
ReplyDeleteI won't say that Tim lied about Caner, but I won't say he misspoke, either. Tim is simply mistaken. Perhaps Ergun was just mistaken in some of his incorrect statements also. But then it doesn't sound much better to be ignorant of your own life's events than to intentionally lie about them.
junk, and we know the comverse must be true.......that men must be leaders because they sin on purpose.
ReplyDeleteExaggerated truth = more books sold = more $ = an even more exaggerated truth = even more books sold = more speaking engagements = more $ =…..= more $....= more $...
ReplyDeleteWho among us could resist such temptation?
**raises hand**
Nothing, and I mean nothing, makes me any angrier than catching someone lying to my face. Lie to me once, and I probably will never trust anything else you ever say, at least not without acknowledgement you've lied, an apology, and repentance.
I also suspect I would have been a lot more successful in life had I learned the art of "embellishment" and the "little white lie." Of course, that depends on how you define "successful" and the fact that I have to look at myself in the mirror every day. So yes, I can say without a doubt, I could resist such temptation. I can also say without a doubt that I don't want to associate too closely with someone who couldn't because that's someone who cannot be trusted.
New BBC Open Forum said...
ReplyDeleteNothing, and I mean nothing, makes me any angrier than catching someone lying to my face. Lie to me once, and I probably will never trust anything else you ever say, at least not without acknowledgement you've lied, an apology, and repentance.
You make a good point, I even wonder if bible colleges even teach tactics as effective lying in your face. If some one hears a lie too often it can become the truth. In Caner case he did not have the luxury of effective lying.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:44,
ReplyDelete«:P:» «:E:» «:R:» «:F:» «:E:» «:C:» «:T:»
Jon L. Estes said...
ReplyDelete"I do believe there is a guilt here. A guilt of gossip and slander. . . ..
God still hates one who sows discord among brethren."
Jon: (1) It is only slander if it is untrue, and in the case of Caner, it is true.
(2) Caner is the source of the discord, as are his defenders, who have not succeeded in getting him to confess and repent. The Matthew 18 passage says that if the offender refuses to repent, take it to the CHURCH. As you have sad in another comment to this blog, WE ARE THE CHURCH, so the blogger is acting appropriately under Matt 18 in this electronic communication era.
Junkster.....
ReplyDeleteLU needs to reconvene the committee and make it all women. We'll take care of Ergun!
He'll be sentenced to 10 years of vacuuming
Thomas Road Baptist Church.
And daily trips down the Snowflex in his spanx.
"The part in bold above is a lie."
ReplyDeleteIsn't this the exact statement that you are criticizing others for making on this blog?
Your hypocracy knows no bounds.
"I do believe there is a guilt here. A guilt of gossip and slander."
ReplyDeleteOnly if you redefine telling the truth as "gossip" and "slander" to serve your own selfish purposes.
Satan likes to do that also.
"God still hates one who sows discord among brethren. Maybe that is why he set it up for us to go to our brothers when they have offended us. And yes, it is a church issue and we are the church."
ReplyDeleteSo, did God hate Paul for doing the exact same thing in his day?
Keep pounding Jon. You will force that square peg (Bible) into that round hole (your self-serving interpretation) one day.
"God still hates one who sows discord among brethren. Maybe that is why he set it up for us to go to our brothers when they have offended us. And yes, it is a church issue and we are the church."
ReplyDeleteSure sounds like you are trying to convince us that you are right and we are wrong.
Isn't that what you have accused others of being guilty on on this blog?
"Isn't that what you have accused others of being guilty on on this blog?"
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. I have said go to those you find fault with, not to everyone but them.
"So, did God hate Paul for doing the exact same thing in his day?"
ReplyDeleteDid Paul put the issue out there so everyone could jump on the bandwagon and talk about the person and the problem? Or did he speak about it with the intent to show correct doctrine and then move on?
Paul never made Peter the but of his jokes, the primacy of his conversation, nor did he gather the gang to pounce on the faults of Peter. Paul did not do the exact same thing. To say he did is a lie.
There is no indication that Paul went around looking for fault, digging up what he could find to expose Peter. There is nothing I can find in the word that demonstrates a vileness against Peter. Calling Caner Erkin Gerkin is wrong along with the other personal attacks which go deeper need to stop. I think an anon called him a snake oil salesman some time ago. This does not honor God.
"Did Paul put the issue out there so everyone could jump on the bandwagon and talk about the person and the problem? Or did he speak about it with the intent to show correct doctrine and then move on?"
ReplyDeleteDid Peter continue in his actions that needed rebuking?
Seems to me Paul did continue to keep it out there for discussion since it ended up in a letter for millions to read for 2000 years.
Wonder why the Holy Spirit allowed that?
Jon, you are stretching. As you always do.
Caner is a congenital, unrepentent liar who makes his living from Christianity as a "showman". He makes "merchandise" of the Gospel. That makes him a wolf.
Trust me, we do not expect YOU to agree or even see it.
"There is no indication that Paul went around looking for fault, digging up what he could find to expose Peter. "
ReplyDeleteDig? Caner's lies were in many "sermons" he made sure were online for millions to hear. He jumped at the chance to speak on stages all over.
It was bound to catch up with him after 9 years and speaking to thousands all over the US.
You are trying to imply that anyone who made his lies known to others is worse. Nice try.
Of course, you will come back and say that you were trying to do no such thing...and around we go with Jon and his vortex of parsing and twisting.
I don't think so. I have said go to those you find fault with, not to everyone but them.
ReplyDeleteMay 26, 2011 12:40 PM
You are trying to convince those without biblical knowledge that going to Caner first is biblical. Of course you are wrong.
As explained on another thread, Matthew 18 is about PERSONAL offenses.
Caner made sure he was a very PUBLIC speaker. He promoted himself as an expert on Islam and Terrorism by lying about his background. He made money from his lies marketing himself as a Christian leader. And now we know he is a lying "Christian" leader. That is mocking Christ.
Also, you are ignoring the "biblical" fact that Paul rebuked Peter publicly without going to him privately first. And there are other examples of those who did such things PUBLICLY.
Again, nice try. But you are only making yourself look very biblically illiterate and that is how you market yourself for a living. Strange. I guess you rely on having biblically ignorant followers.
You are proof that everyone should check everything a pastor or celebrity Christian leader says.
I think an anon called him a snake oil salesman some time ago. This does not honor God.
ReplyDeleteMay 26, 2011 12:47 PM
And lying on stage to thousands for 9 years honors God? He IS a snake oil salesman. He was selling himself as an expert on Islam and a former "trained to be a Terrorist" FOR celebrity and profit.
jon you are one sick puppy. please get out of paid ministry.
ReplyDeleteI pity anyone unfurtunate enough to have such a spiritually immature, Biblically-ignorant "pastor" such as Jon. It is because so many pulpits today are filled by men of his ilk that people get swept away by spiritual perverts such as Caner and Harold Camping.
ReplyDeleteIt took me a few mintues to stop laughing after reading this comment:
ReplyDeleteDid Peter continue in his actions that needed rebuking?
Seems to me Paul did continue to keep it out there for discussion since it ended up in a letter for millions to read for 2000 years.
Wonder why the Holy Spirit allowed that?
"Paul did not do the exact same thing. To say he did is a lie."
ReplyDeleteIt's funny how you can see lies everywhere - except when it is a person with a religious title - that lied for a decade publically and never repented.
Jon please never stop leaving your comments on this blog. You are a daily reminder of why this blog is so important, and why Christians MUST learn for themselves how to interpret scripture correctly and not depend on their pastors to do it for them.
ReplyDelete"I don't think so. I have said go to those you find fault with, not to everyone but them."
ReplyDeleteYeah you were. When others call Caner a liar (varifiable fact), you accuse them of sewing discord and not following biblical precedent (not an accurate statement).
In your comments, you call people liars (not an accurate statement) and don't follow the same biblical precedent that you prescribe for others.
Hypocrite.
Jon please never stop leaving your comments on this blog. You are a daily reminder of why this blog is so important, and why Christians MUST learn for themselves how to interpret scripture correctly and not depend on their pastors to do it for them.
ReplyDeleteMay 26, 2011 5:15 PM
AMEN!
I'm aware that I'm a little late to the party, but given the remarks about Liberty, I'd like to take up for my school (sort of). Caner and his defenders are generally representative of the seminary, but the undergraduate Religion Department is another story. I have formed friendships with several professors in the undergrad religion department, and I can guarantee you that they, and from what they tell me others as well, wanted Caner to leave immediately, and weren't happy with him even before the story broke.
ReplyDeleteYes, the school is messed up. But you have to keep in mind that a lot of professors have been there for a couple decades or more and haven't necessarily changed, even though the agenda of the university has.