"If Jesus required the tithe of those who lived in the darkness before the cross, what do you think he expects of those who live in the blinding light after the cross? So, OK, it's Old Testament; New Testament calls for a lot more. PONY UP!" Frank Page preaching at SWBTS 3/21/12
---------------------------------------
Preaching at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary chapel last week, Dr. Frank Page - the head of the SBC Executive Committee and arguably the most powerful man in the SBC - declared that Jesus himself expects Christians to give MORE than a tithe since they are under grace, and he summed up Jesus' expectation in two words:---------------------------------------
"PONY UP!!"
Where in scripture did Page find Jesus' expectation of Christians to "pony up"? Well, Page used Jesus' words to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:23, and he uses that to extend the Old Testament requirement to tithe to an "expectation" of Jesus!!
Page conveniently left out of his quote of Matthew 23:23 the important part that Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees, not to his followers! To interpret Jesus' remarks to the Pharisees who were, and wanted to live under the law, as a statement of his expectations for Christians, is just flat out a misuse of scripture. For an excellent layman's discussion on how Mat 23:23 is commonly misused by preachers today to say that Jesus commanded tithing, read this excellent article by the writer at the Church Stewardship and Tithing Report website.
This term "Pony Up" is interesting...it is slang for "fork it over", sometimes used as slang to tell someone to begrudgingly hand over money that is owed, to hand over one's fair share of what they are obligated to pay based on services rendered. Hardly an expression to be used to tell Christians that they should give freely and generously and not under compulsion.
Perhaps this implication that Jesus wants us to "pony up" is really not the most disgusting part of the Page sermon.
Page's sermon was not on tithing or on Matthew 23:23. Instead, Page was preaching about the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14. In that passage, Jesus tells the story of the tax collector and the Pharisee praying in the temple. Jesus draws a contrast between the prideful Pharisee who prays about how he gives a tenth of his income, while the tax collector was crying out to God for mercy. About them, Jesus says: "I tell you that this man [the tax collector], rather than the other [the Pharisee], went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
So what does Page do? After he tells Christians to "pony up", he then declares how he himself is a tither, "and more". Like the Pharisee in the temple from Page's own sermon, Page beats his chest in the SWBTS temple of how generous HE is because he tithes! Jesus had to get a hearty chuckle in the irony of this. And I wonder if Page's standard is the partial OT tithe of 10%, or the full tithe of 23 1/3%. If Jesus expected 23 1/3% in the Old Testament, wouldn't he want Page to pony up more than 23 1/3%?
Lastly, I can't help but point out the last bit of irony in Page's comments on tithing. In the video you'll see that Page brags about how his tithing records are open for inspection by his church members, and he makes a point that giving records should NOT be confidential.
How ironic that Frank Page, the head of the SBC Executive Committee, is advocating for the transparency of tithing records of pastors, but the SBC can't even advocate for the establishment of a database to provide transparency on convicted sexual offenders amongst the ranks of SBC pastors?
Seems to me Frank Page is more concerned about transparency of the non-tithing SBC pastors than being transparent about the sexual predator pastors in the ranks of the SBC.
Only one word describes this "preaching"--pathetic.
ReplyDeleteFollow the money. Always follow the money.
ReplyDeleteSBC should rename itself as "Great Collection Baptists" or "Great Tithing Collectors Baptists". Of course add "Pony up, suckers" as a footnote. Also an interesting post here .... Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] > SBC keeps special no-accountability status under pre-Civil War law
ReplyDeleteI agree. Message is pathetic when these me take the cream of the crop to live their rich lifestyles!
ReplyDeleteso easy to repeat "pony up" - "my tithe records are transparent" - when he is walking on the sunny side of the street. Drawing a hefty salary off the back of the pony-uppers. So smug; so self righteous. Gags me.
ReplyDelete"Leaders" like Frank Page actually hurt the cause of Christianity and sadly folks like him ill prepare the ministers that hear his sermons and repeat them.
ReplyDeleteYou're masterfully on the mark with this, Watchdog. Frank Page advocates transparency for tithing records but opposes any sort of transparency for church-hopping Southern Baptist pastors who are credibly accused, multiply accused, self-admitted, and/or convicted sexual predators. And amazingly, this guy who preaches "Pony up!" is the same guy who publicly castigated clergy molestation survivors as being "nothing more than opportunistic persons." Uhhh.... maybe Frank needs to take a good hard look in the mirror?
ReplyDelete“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” Upton Sinclair
ReplyDeleteTom, has the SBC changed their message about tithing or is this what they have taught for as long as we can remember?
ReplyDeleteIt seems pretty much classic SBC teaching to me; certainly nothing new.
Why NOW get chafed over what they've taught for decades.
"Like the Pharisee in the temple from Page's own sermon, Page beats his chest in the SWBTS temple of how generous HE is because he tithes! Jesus had to get a hearty chuckle in the irony of this."
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of the TROLL who constantly leaves comments on this blog bragging about his paying of a partial (less than 1/2 of what was required in the OT) tithe.
Ironic indeed.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.” Upton Sinclair
ReplyDeleteThat pretty much sums it up.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. But these men are well versed in scripture. I have to conclude that their mishandling of this teaching is intentional.
He is a terrible speaker but his theology is terrific.
ReplyDeleteI find that the people who hate THE tithe....hate TO tithe!
It is laughable that Watchdog has admitted giving very little of his income to the Lord's work and wants to encourage You to give very little to the Lord's work and Watchdog THINKS he is doing the Lord's work.
that is scary
Folks like Frank Page live like Kings off of the offerings of others. I do not believe Jesus intended it this way. It is wrong.
ReplyDeleteJames - I am quite certain I've never, ever heard a preacher say "PONY UP!" when it comes to tithing. I would expect Jessie Duplantis to say it, but not the head of the SBC Executive Committee.
ReplyDeleteSo whether they have been teaching that Jesus requires us to PONY UP with more than a tithe, I am not sure. But if they have, then they've been wrong for decades, whether I realized it all along or not.
Thanks, Christa. Sorry I didn't post your comment until later tonight, it was waiting to be moderated.
ReplyDeleteAnon 8:34 - I don't advocate that people give "very little" to the Lord's work. I advocate that preachers stop misusing scripture to coerce people to give a mandatory 10% minimum to receive God's blessings and keep the devil away. I am absolutely all for people giving whatever they feel led to give to any organization out of the generosity of their heart.
ReplyDeleteChurch: Why the mass exit? http://vimeo.com/37904290
ReplyDeleteI was going to add some commentary, but I won't. I'm just interested to see what people think
"Pickles have souls!"
ReplyDeleteHere's an interesting post from the guy in the previous video - "The Evangelical Industrial Complex & the Rise of Celebrity Pastors" http://www.skyejethani.com/the-evangelical-industrial-complex-the-rise-of-celebrity-pastors/1166/
ReplyDeleteHas anyone noticed that few pastors teach prophecy? I suppose they don't get the fact that we are in the last days. Check out Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey and get the real facts. Keep up the good work Watchdog.
ReplyDeleteHey ,anon, Adrian Rogers said "pickles have souls" and he certainly should not be included in a discussion like this! He was a good man and his reputation should not be soiled by such a reference. Cease and desist!
ReplyDeleteYears ago I attended an M Night service at a SB church. The speaker was the state convention’s director of missions. (I believe that is what he was called.) He talked about his horse farm, he talked about his Harley Davidson, he talked about his vacation home at the beach, he talked about his children attending private Baptist colleges, and he talked about how the people in the church were not giving enough to get the message of Jesus to the poor lost people of our country and the world. He was talking to a lower middle-class, small-town group who seemed to be delighted that this man had so much, and never once questioned giving more.
ReplyDeleteSouthern Baptist seem to have been indoctrinated to believe that some of their leaders are entitled to live the life of wealth and fame, and somehow that makes the “man in the pew” a part of the leader’s success and therefore the success of the gospel.
Pony up=Pay money, especially a payment that is in arrears.
ReplyDeleteWhy does it always have to be about money? Are there not other important aspects of being a Christian?
Also a well to do man like Frank Page saying this loses lots of its credibility when asking others to Pony Up when the ones he is asking to do this have much less that they are able to give.
John 14 :15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
ReplyDeleteWe tithe out of fear of GOD; we give offerings out of Love for GOD and what HE did through grace. Do not try to put me back under the tithe law (tax)
"I find that the people who hate THE tithe....hate TO tithe!"
ReplyDeleteThe TROLL is the king of the straw man argument.
He doesn't HATE the caps lock key does he?
Anonymous said... "Has anyone noticed that few pastors teach prophecy? I suppose they don't get the fact that we are in the last days. Check out Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey and get the real facts"
ReplyDeleteChoke, are you kidding?
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/jigsaw_puzzle/3.html
http://americanvision.org/1753/hal-lindsey-making-predictionsagain/
Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey. Now there's a great pair. Jeffrey has been on Hinn's program selling books and both are regular TBNers. Think I will get my prophesy info somewhere else.
ReplyDeleteIt was said here:"Southern Baptist seem to have been indoctrinated to believe that some of their leaders are entitled to live the life of wealth and fame, and somehow that makes the “man in the pew” a part of the leader’s success and therefore the success of the gospel."
ReplyDeleteI sure wish there was a way that offerings did not make it possible for the above to happen. We should have no folks in the SBC living like Kings.
"Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I find that the people who hate THE tithe....hate TO tithe!"
Such a foolish statement - I would say most everyone who post on this blog are more than generous tithers. I know we are - we're just not so stupid we give to those pastors as one said "live on the sunny side of the street" . . .with so much pounding from the celebrity pastors on tithing speaks tons, tithers are re-derecting their tithes elsewhere! Keep up the good work W/D.
"Check out Hal Lindsey and Grant Jeffrey and get the real facts."
ReplyDeleteHere are the real facts:
Hal Lindsey has been predicting the end of time for almost 50 years. Not one thing that he has predicted in his books have come to pass.
One of his books (out of print now) predicted that the anti-Christ would use Y2K to take over control of the world's governments.
Grant Jeffrey advised Christians to sell off all of their investments and move to the country where they could grow crops and store gold. You know because Y2K was going to be the end of the world as we know it.
Why are Christians the only group of people who continue to revere leaders who have totally discredited themselves?
That's how I was brought up- preachers being called men of god, hearing that the end of the world will happen any minute- I can say that it has harmed me & is I guess still harming serious little girls as we speak. Shame on you if you stand in the pulpit and scare children with this stuff- SOME of us take it to heart and really believe it.
Deletehmmmmm....transparency...we want to see your tithing records...but, please, don't ask again to see the pastor's salary. By the way, I am tithing....but not for building funds, programs that entertain the church members. Think about how much money is spent on a church's budget and how many actually walk the aisles? Now, think about those who do God's work among the unsaved by tending to their physical needs as well as telling them of God's grace. I let the Lord lead me on where to tithe. Sorry big time pastors....who ask for a building to be built for prayer, while people are suffering.
ReplyDeleteOff Topic: A sad tale of greed and fraud in the wine trade ... Cellar-Book [Keith Levenberg] > Costly Thy Habit as Thy Purse Can Buy.
ReplyDeleteAt least the FBI prosecutes fraudsters in the wine trade, how about the preaching trade?
Tithing is still for today because the PURPOSE of the tithe has never changed although its application has. The OT tithe was used for the priests, strangers, the fatherless, and the widows. The same is still true today as evidenced when reading throughout the NT.
ReplyDeleteTithes in the Bible were never used to support the Tabernacle or Temple but were only used for people, and this is where we misapply the tithe today. We use most of it to support brick and mortar church buildings when Scripture only used it for people. The biblical definition of the storehouse isn't the place but the person.
To teach that tithing isn't for today is a violation of Dt. 8:3 and Mt. 4:4. When Paul taught on giving he took all of his lessons from the OT, especially Num. 18 which most people completely ignore.
In Mt. 23:23, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees but he was also talking to them as part of the nation of Israel. And, why tell them to continue tithing if it was only going to be true for a few more days? As I said, Paul based all his lessons on giving directly from the OT, and he used tithing passages to justify it, we just apply it slightly differently - same as it is with many OT truths. The NT practiced tithing, but because it isn't written in terms that we want to understand, many teach that tithing isn't for today. but if you really knew the OT doctrine, you'd find that they perfectly applied the OT truth in a NT setting. But few seem to know the doctrine because they focus on the amount of the tithe when they should be focusing on its purpose. Selah.
"Tithing is still for today because the PURPOSE of the tithe has never changed although its application has."
ReplyDeleteHow did you come to that conclusion?
The tithes in the OT (there were 3) were always food and used to feed people.
Today's tithe (1 not 3) is paid in money and people who were given the tithe in the OT (the poor) are told they are to pay it even when they can't pay their bills.
Sounds like the purpose has changed to me - drastically.
"The OT tithe was used for the priests, strangers, the fatherless, and the widows.
ReplyDeleteIt was also used for religious festivals. By the way, if you wanted pay with money and not food, there was a 20% penalty. Why is that OT command being ignored today?
"The same is still true today as evidenced when reading throughout the NT."
ReplyDeleteYou are confusing "free will giving" which is what is promoted in the NT with "the tithe" which is OT law.
The tithe is only referenced by Jesus in the NT as a way of condemning OT Law-Abiding hypocritical Pharisees.
"Tithes in the Bible were never used to support the Tabernacle or Temple but were only used for people, and this is where we misapply the tithe today."
ReplyDeleteThat's because the tithes (there were 3) in the OT were always food. So, why are we only paying one of three OT tithes today and why is there no 20% penalty for paying in cash as they had in the OT?
"We use most of it to support brick and mortar church buildings when Scripture only used it for people. The biblical definition of the storehouse isn't the place but the person."
ReplyDeleteAgain, that is because it was food in the OT and only people who grew food or raised livestock paid the tithe.
There was a literal storehouse in the temple where the food was stored.
"To teach that tithing isn't for today is a violation of Dt. 8:3 and Mt. 4:4. When Paul taught on giving he took all of his lessons from the OT, especially Num. 18 which most people completely ignore."
ReplyDeleteTo teach that tithing is for today is a violation of II Cor 9:7 and really the entire NT that teaches that we are no longer bound to the law but now live under grace.
In addition to that obvious contradiction. Today's (one out of three) tithe bears no resemblance to the so-called tithe of today.
"In Mt. 23:23, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees but he was also talking to them as part of the nation of Israel."
ReplyDeleteThat is correct. And the nation of Israel was to pay tithes (3) as a civil duty to run the local government in a theocracy.
That bears no resemblance to our situation today.
"And, why tell them to continue tithing if it was only going to be true for a few more days?"
Because the topic Jesus was discussing was not the tithe. It was hypocrisy. What Jesus was addressing was using the tithe to avoid supporting your family members.
This is the same argument that non-Christians use in condemning the Bible for mentioning slavery but not condemning it. Basically an argument from silence. Not condemning isn't the same thing as support.
"Paul based all his lessons on giving directly from the OT, and he used tithing passages to justify it, we just apply it slightly differently - same as it is with many OT truths."
ReplyDeleteThis is not an accurate statement. II Corinthians 9:7 is a complete contradiction of the OT tithes (3) which taught that if you didn't give 23 1/3% you were cursed and a thief.
The application today is not "slightly different." The single tithe today is less than 1/2 of what they gave in the OT and is not money not food (20% penalty for giving money in the OT) and the poor are expected to pay 10% today instead of receiving the tithe.
That is not slightly different my friend.
"The NT practiced tithing, but because it isn't written in terms that we want to understand, many teach that tithing isn't for today. but if you really knew the OT doctrine, you'd find that they perfectly applied the OT truth in a NT setting."
ReplyDeleteReally?
Where is the tithe that went to the Levitical priests in the OT (who weren't allowed to own anything)?
Where is the tithe of the mandatory OT feasts today?
Where is the tithe that went to the widows and orphans today?
According to Barna 75% of the average churches expenses go toward buildings, grounds and salaries.
How is that in any way similar to what was going on in the OT?
"But few seem to know the doctrine because they focus on the amount of the tithe when they should be focusing on its purpose. Selah."
ReplyDeleteThe word tithe literally means "tenth part" so I don't believe there is any debate about the amount of the tithe.
The question is why are we only paying 1 of 3 tithes today?
Why is it money today when it was food in the OT?
Why is everyone expected to pay today when only those who raised crops or cattle in the OT paid the tithe?
Why are the poor expected to pay the tithe today when they received the tithe in the OT?
The problem is that today's "tithe" has become a tool to intimidate church members into giving more money so that the church can provide the pastor an extravagant lifestyle.
By the way, no one in the NT church paid the tithe for the first 700 years. The idea was stolen from pagan land leasing principles in the 8th century.
Those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat their mistakes.
WD is mentioned here ...
ReplyDeleteWade Burleson > Hitler Rants Against the SBC Name Change to GCB
Thanks Thy Peace!
ReplyDeleteSaw the video, was rolling on the floor!
@Anonymous: you’re response is typical and unlearned. In your case, you base everything upon your misinterpretation and application of 2 Cor. 9:7 which is primarily addressing motive. Evidently you also failed to realize that Paul took this verse from the Rejoicing Tithe found in the OT – and these are tithing passages mind you. And typical of people who can’t rightly divide the Word, you use one verse to throw out dozens more and elevate secular and church history to justify disobedience to what’s found in God’s Word.
ReplyDeleteOf course you make the accusation that we are “no longer bound to the law but now live under grace.” This statement alone shows your gross ignorance. This applies to salvation and not daily living. In short, Paul took all of his teachings on giving directly from the OT and the NT church practiced them. The only difference is that he taught us how to apply those same patterns and principles in the NT. I’m sorry that you can’t see it, but they mirror one another perfectly.
The rest of your comments are…elementary but no doubt impressive to those who don’t know any better – especially your comments concerning Mt. 23:23.
Did not the Apostle Paul continue to work himself as to not burden the followers of Jesus Christ and also to show himself approved? Do these pastors of the pulpit have real jobs to show us what real servanthood looks like instead of leeching off of the people? We are commanded to give with a cheerful heart, not because some overweight preacher man makes us feel guilty for not supporting his lavish lifestyle. God knows his heart.
ReplyDeleteJesus "expects?" Interesting word choice.
ReplyDeleteOh, and all these long dissertation threads expounding the scriptures for us once again...please stop. I don't think they're changing anyone's mind.
none of these celebrated SB pastors will reveal what their salary is to their congregation. The select committee members are under a "masonic like" oath to not reveal the salary amounts leaving the congregation to speculate and then the contributors are condemned from the pulpit for speculating! "It is none of your business!"
ReplyDeleteEven here in Memphis, our own Bellevue Baptist, noone knows what the pastor's salaries are. It is a long held church policy to maintain secrecy. Only the personnel committee knows the truth!
ReplyDeleteHey anon, ru saying that Adrian Rogers established this secrecy? There was no secrecy with Adrian Rogers, everybody knew what his salary was! Gaines' salary is a secret!
ReplyDeleteYou can't implicate Rogers in this!
"you’re response is typical and unlearned."
ReplyDeleteIf you have ever witnesses to a cult, you will recognize this tactic.
When you are wrong, you know you are wrong, and you can't answer obvious contradictions in your belief system, you insult the person asking logical questions to try to get them off track and change the subject.
In this case, my friend, your slight of hand won't work.
You make the claim - you are responsible for backing it up and answering difficult questions about your mistaken beliefs.
"In your case, you base everything upon your misinterpretation and application of 2 Cor. 9:7 which is primarily addressing motive."
ReplyDeleteWrong. This passage address both motive and practice. It is a complete contradiction of the OT tithe.
The tithe was owed and thus one who didn't pay it was a thief and cursed.
The antithesis of that is what is taught in the NT. We are to give as God directs each one without compulsion.
That is a contradiction my friend if you try to hold on to both.
"Evidently you also failed to realize that Paul took this verse from the Rejoicing Tithe found in the OT – and these are tithing passages mind you."
ReplyDeleteEvidently you missed the entire message of the NT - that we are no longer bound to the law but now live under grace.
You may want to read the book of Hebrews. Those people shared the same problem that you seem to be suffering from.
It always amazes me these guys who want to take us back to living under the law. Why do you only want to obey some of the laws and ignore others. Completely inconsistent.
"And typical of people who can’t rightly divide the Word, you use one verse to throw out dozens more and elevate secular and church history to justify disobedience to what’s found in God’s Word."
ReplyDeleteAnd typical of people who want to force others to live under the law (that Christ freed us from) you ignore all of the contradictions that your interpretation causes and are not able to defend your position by answering simple questions about the ramifications of your misguided beliefs.
Being ignorant of past mistakes that the church has made is not a virtue.
"Of course you make the accusation that we are “no longer bound to the law but now live under grace.”
ReplyDeleteActually Christ made that statement.
"This statement alone shows your gross ignorance."
ReplyDeleteAs Greg Koukl says: an insult is not an argument.
Greg also teaches that Christians should be loving ambassadors.
Is this an example of that love?
I think not.
"This applies to salvation and not daily living."
ReplyDeleteReally?
So, when the law teaches that we are to stone someone for adultery, not wear woven fabrics, not start a fire on the Sabbath - those teachings on daily living are still in effect for today?
"Paul took all of his teachings on giving directly from the OT and the NT church practiced them."
ReplyDeleteReally?
Where is the tithe to Levitical priests in the NT? And where and how did he change that tithe to something we see today?
Where is the tithe to the orphans and widows and where exactly did he change that tithe to something that is practiced today?
Where is the tithe for the feasts and how is that applied today?
Please provide scripture references in the OT and NT for each one. I see the ones in the OT. I'm interested in seeing the NT changes and how Paul instructed us to implement them.
"The only difference is that he taught us how to apply those same patterns and principles in the NT."
ReplyDeleteAgain, the person making the claim is responsible for backing up that claim.
In other words, you can't just make a declaration. You have to be able to back it up with scripture.
An insult won't do.
"I’m sorry that you can’t see it, but they mirror one another perfectly."
ReplyDeleteNope. Not even close.
Anyone can see that what Christians practice today is nothing like what the OT Israelites practiced in the OT.
And that makes complete sense considering the Israelites were living under a theocracy and still under the old covenant.
Sorry, I can't ignore basic logic and obvious contradictions.
"The rest of your comments are…elementary but no doubt impressive to those who don’t know any better – especially your comments concerning Mt. 23:23."
ReplyDeleteIt's called interpreting in context my friend. It is one of the basic building blocks of good exegesis.
Unless you are an OT hypocritical Pharisee living in a theocracy, Matthew 23: 23 is not directed at you.
If I could leave you with one piece of advice, it would be to learn to interpret scripture based on tried and true principles instead of trying to force it to fit into something that someone has taught you.
I Thes 5:21
From Dr. John MacArthur:
ReplyDeleteTwo kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary).
The issue has been greatly confused, however, by some who misunderstand the nature of the Old Testament tithes. Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel.
Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax, as was a second annual tithe required by God to fund a national festival (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Smaller taxes were also imposed on the people by the law (Leviticus 19:9-10; Exodus 23:10-11). So the total giving required of the Israelites was not 10 percent, but well over 20 percent. All that money was used to operate the nation.
Dr. John MacArthur (continued):
ReplyDeleteAll giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified.
New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government—a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel.
The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7: "Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."
Backlash Against Tithing
ReplyDeleteWall Street Journal
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id123.html
Read my Lips....WE DON'T CARE!
ReplyDeleteWe don't care what our Pastors salary is. If we did care, we would force the Finance Team to tell us!
We don't care who makes the decisions in our church. We came to this Church because we hated Business Meetings at Podunk Baptist. If we did care about all these decisions, we would force the Deacons to tell us who is making them!
We don't care how much time away from the pulpit our Pastor takes. He works harder than any of us anyway!
We don't care about stupid blogs like this and immature people like WatchDog that try to slander and harass our Leaders. We support our Pastor 100%!
WE DON'T CARE...WE JUST TRUST JESUS!!!
why don't u?
It seems to boil down to "JESUS HIMSELF wants you-commands you-to give me money!" Of course they back it up with scripture-which anybody could do, cause you can make a good case for lots of stuff from the Bible.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of whether these preachers and leaders get money from tithing or just plain giving, maybe the focus should be on what is done with the money once they get it. I think someone quoted Barna that 75% in most churches is spent on salaries and buildings. I think if that's true, it should be very plain to the people that this is what their money given to God is used for. Then they can decide if that seems like what God had in mind or not.
Paying some wealthy preacher's salary just doesn't seem very spiritual to me. Isn't it supposed to be about helping orphans, widows, prisoners or whatever modern groups need help in a real way? I wish more Christians would divert the money they give at their fancy churches for building upkeep and salaries to something that really makes a difference to a needy child or something.
Watchdog does not tithe
ReplyDeleteWatchdog does not witness
Watchdog does not get actively involved in his local church.
Watchdog does not like pastors.
Watchdog does not like inovative approaches to reaching the lost
Watchdog is totally against anything that is touching the masses.
Watchdog has a lot in common with Satan
I wish we paid our Pastor more money.
ReplyDeleteHe is worthy of double honor.
I thank God that our Pastor does not serve the Lord for filthy lucre.
Pastor Mac has said many times that We did not hire him, God hired him as our Pastor therefore only God can fire him.
Pastor Mac drives a nice car and lives in a big house and that is okay with me.
When we take care of God's man then God will take care of us.
Anon Mar 29 6:11
ReplyDeleteYou'd go along with Steve Gaines who's been heard saying:
"God had only one son and he made him a preacher?"
So the rest of you are just worthless, wayward men...
41 minutes in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_khg0G2-TPQ
Teaching the next generation of preachers.....
Jesus nailed all the law to the tree...all of it. If you believe in tithing you are ignoring what was accomplished at Calvary. You also believe in WORKS which won't add one thing to a crown of righteousness, glory, rejoicing, martrys, or incorruptible. The rich man was told by Jesus to give all his treasures to the poor not the church. Somebody has been leading you astray regarding tithing and it is not the Word of God. Pastors do not know anymore about the Bible and some of you are too lazy or just afraid of this fact on tithing.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with pastors who push this idea that developed out of a goal to keep the ministry going is becoming more clear. The 11th commandment of love your neighbor as yourself is paramount after loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul.You hardly ever see this practiced by most pastors but ss teachers and generally most people. The lost coin, the lost sheep, and the prodigal son should be applicable in church but unfortunately it is not. People just like to "play church". Most of what goes on in church is a total waste of time. That's why most go to sleep listening to this 3 points and a poem or the latest book or story they want to pass on.
ReplyDeleteI protest large Baptist churches and seminaries with multi-million dollar budgets! I protest their semi-pelagianism, something that the laity do not understand. Question: is there a faint possibility that these church leaders see the error of their ways and repent?
ReplyDeleteNO, God withholds the faith to repent!
Basically these preachers make lucrative salaries, live in lavish homes, drive luxury cars and have 'showcase' wives and popular children. They are "locked down" and don't know their spiritual condition.
The unchurched world mocks and blasphemes Christianity, Christ himself, because of them and their wealth. They KNOW (though none of the Churches understand this) this to be WRONG and in the market places of life they joke about these preachers in blasphemous ways. This is not persecution of the Christians that counts for righteousness but is part and parcel of what is finally reserved for them after death while awaiting judgement.
A lot of these pastors wind up making millions off the gullible sheep. Of course they are all God's Man to let them tell you about it. Their contracts are tighter than one on the NFL. They get a bonus if the revenue goes up, they get ten weeks off plus days during the week, they have someone else to hold funerals, visit in the hospitals, etc, etc. They have 401's which are in the thousands yearly, they hire their family members too. Its an awesome job and everyone coming out of the seminary is seeking these rewards!!!!
ReplyDeleteI can't believe that there is such bad exegesis in seminaries on this. From what I been told in estimate, about 75% of baptist ministers support tithing. Sadly, not even the TORAH (the Old Testament) NEVER EVER gives any type of support for pay check tithing. The OT tithe would suggest tithing AFTER taking taking care of your family and the tithe would be on the food set aside going toward the market. Also this suggest landowners could tithe. The righteousness Jesus suggests is not to deviate from respecting the TORAH in its wisdom.
ReplyDeleteIf one wants to convict the materialism of this age you don't do it by teaching tithing which he boasted about he did. No one can boast on this. So the person who made money on gasoline prices this week think again about being comfortable about your tithing? The bible also says DON"T EXPLOIT your neighbor as well does not it.
ReplyDeleteTell me why this is the land of confusion..Genesis (oh not from the book of but the band).
ReplyDelete"Hey ,anon, Adrian Rogers said "pickles have souls" and he certainly should not be included in a discussion like this! He was a good man and his reputation should not be soiled by such a reference. Cease and desist!"
ReplyDeleteThe Rogers comment was a classic and hit the point directly. Of course, Rogers taught heresy when he taught the tithe. Anyone who believes the tithe is not biblical must admit that all who taught it are wrong on all levels and it is heresy. Therefore... many of the SBC heroes taught heresy. We need more men like the dog leading the way.
If tithing is still in force today on Christians, then surely the Jews would still be tithing because they are the keepers of the law! But they don't tithe. They can't. There's no Levitical priesthood.
ReplyDeleteSling mud on the Watchdog all you want you critics, you who sit in Pharisaical judgment on his heart. As Paul said, if you want to keep the the law, then go all the way! (His description about circumcision is more graphic). Keeping the law makes Christ's sacrifice null and void.
"WE DON'T CARE!"
ReplyDeleteYeah, that's the problem TROLL.
How did it feel when you first found that your hero Mac Brunson groveled in front of the entire congregation and apologized to WD?
And not because he thought it was the right thing to do but because there was legal pressure.
That must have hurt.