Case in point is the criticism being directed at Tim Tebow by men like Vines, Mohler, and Graham this week after Tebow announced he was backing out of an April speaking gig at the First Baptist Church of Dallas.
For the past several weeks Tebow has been criticized by many in the secular media for his decision to speak at FBC Dallas because of the controversy surrounding their pastor Robert Jeffress and his stand on issues of homosexuality, Catholicism, and Obama. For sure people in the secular media have used their influence to try to pressure Tebow to behave as they believe he should, that he should cancel his speaking engagement.
But now that Tebow - as his own man, for his own reasons, and presumably according to the dictates of his own heart and faith - has decided to not go to FBC Dallas, the Holy Men of God are now doing exactly what they can't stand the secular media trying to do: trying to squeeze Tim Tebow to fit THEIR mold, and criticizing him when he doesn't do what they think he should.
I'm perfectly comfortable with Tim canceling his FBC Dallas gig. Why? Simply because I trust his judgment, as he has earned the right to be respected when he makes decisions such as this. Unlike many of the Holy Men now criticizing him, he has shown himself to be the real deal, a real Christian who HAS lived out his faith in the face of intense criticism the past 5 years with nary a complaint. He HAS used his money and influence to do many good works that Jesus would have him do. He has done mountains more to spread the gospel than all the mega church preachers put together. So guess what - I trust his judgment to do what he thinks is best as he lives out his Christian faith. He absolutely does not have have to bow to the whims of modern day Pharisees like Jerry Vines or Albert Mohler or Jack Graham.
And speaking of Vines: how sad - and hypocritical - is it that his former pastor, Jerry Vines, openly criticized Tebow via Twitter for simply deciding not to speak at FBC Dallas in April. Look at these Tweets from Vines, and the many "retweets" by Vines' followers:
What a hypocrite. What is Vines talking about? The "devil laughed" when Tebow canceled his speaking engagement? Really? I guess it makes sense that Vines has the inside track on what makes the devil laugh, since Vines doesn't have even 1/10th of the discernment that Tebow has when it comes to choosing speaking venues or choosing speakers. Vines was the one who gave Ergun Caner the pulpit in 2001 and nodded with approval as Caner lied through his teeth about being a trained terrorist raised in Turkey. It was Vines who first brought Darrel Gilyard to Jacksonville to preach and did nothing to warn people at Shiloh Baptist about Gilyard's sexual predation upon Gilyard's return to Jacksonville. It was Vines who went to preach at Gilyard's church in 2006 when Vines knew what a sexual pervert Gilyard had shown himself to be over and over while he was in Dallas - and Vines STILL went to speak at Gilyard's church knowing Gilyard tried to seduce one of Vines' own church members during a youth revival tour. Yes, Vines can only dream that he has a portion of Tebow's discernment.
Jerry, if the devil laughed over Tebow's decision to not speak at Dallas, then the devil must have had a month-long Mardi Gras over your decision to preach at Gilyard's church in 2006. The devil also has had a 10-year party while Ergun Caner lied in churches and to our troops. YOU started that, Jerry, when you failed to do your due diligence in 2001 - or worse, maybe you knew Caner was lying, but you didn't care. Which was it? We don't know, because you've been silent over Caner's exposure as a fraud, but you now are making a big deal over Tebow's decision.
But this shows the misplaced priorities of Pharisees - they are not so much interested in your good deeds, or what you do for God - or whether you are a habitual liar like Caner or the real-deal like Tebow - what they are most interested is whether or not you agree with their religious teachings, and if you believe exactly as they say you should believe and if you agree with their narrow interpretation of the bible.
Even Prestonwood Baptist Church pastor and former SBC president Jack Graham criticized Tebow for his decision, assuming he bowed to the pressure of cultural decay:
Perhaps the reason all of these Holy Men of God are so wigged out over Tebow's decision is that they know Tebow's home church in Jacksonville is no different than FBC Dallas. Maybe they're worried that the most influential Christian of our day who has earned the respect they never could - might actually be signaling that he is turning away from his fundamentalist roots. The Holy Men of God know how dangerous this is to their own religious power, as Tebow speaks with the real-life, living-out-his-faith kind of power the Holy Men of God don't have. He doesn't just stand in a pulpit bloviating and dictating on Sunday mornings, collecting a fat check from church coffers like the big wig Holy Men of God. No, Tebow is in the real-world, engaging real people and doing real good works to help hurting people.
Tim is learning the sad truth that in the fundamentalist world in which he was raised is that what is important to measure someone's faith by is NOT necessarily how much good they do, but it is whether you believe exactly as they do. Pretty sad.
All this time Tebow thought it was the secular media who was watching and waiting for him to fall - now he knows it was the modern-day Pharisees who were waiting and watching - not for him to sin but for him to somehow go against their strict teachings. What a loving bunch.
The Pharisees criticized Jesus for doing good on the Sabbath, because Jesus dared to break their rules and ignore their teachings, showing them to be hypocrites.
Now the modern-day Pharisees are doing the same with Tebow. I hope Tebow continues to show them to be the hypocrites they are.
---------------------------
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of
the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to
do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not
practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put
them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to
lift a finger to move them.' "
I think that Tebow learns a lesson from his decision. It is not going to be easy for him, but, as a Christian you have to respect the moral absolutes regarding God's intent toward sex and marriage. There is no margin whatsoever. It is Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve. Sex is for a Man and a Woman in the context of a sustaining marriage. Everything else, including adultry and homosexuality is sin. As Christians, it is up to us to educate others that homosexuality is no more or less a sin than any other deviation. We love the sinner and hate the sin.
ReplyDeleteDog - if you see this some other way, you should change your religious affiliation to something other than Southern Baptist. You have to admit that this article is in no way mainstream and is quite contrary to the Southern Baptist dogma. Find something that you like and that likes you.
Anon 6:55,
ReplyDeleteOne of the things I struggle with is not everyone is a Man or a Woman.
WD, you left out that Jeffress preaches from the pulpit a Fischer type interpretation of the first amendment where the government can prioritize Christianity in such a way as forbidding Jewish children from praying a school events by only allowing Christian prayers.
Also, Jeffress was convinced that God would judge the nation if Mitt was elected. Then Mitt earned the nomination and God changed his mind.
Joe....Joe Blackman....is that you? Your comment here took me back a few years, I think this is Joe Blackman!!!
ReplyDeleteBut I will say, Anon, you are right and you make my point.
ReplyDeleteThe religious Pharisees will allow no one to disagree with them on any cultural issues and how to interpret the bible on those issues. They are very intolerant.
What Tebow is learning is that he has been squeezed by the secular media, but he will now be squeezed by the religous zealots of his day, that he MUST be in lock step with them or he won't enjoy their support.
MM: don't get me wrong, there is lots to criticize Jeffress over. And his views are not as extreme as some that have come out of Tebow's current church in the past 5 years (ever read my articles on Jim Smryl's views on Catholics, Catholic priests, Obama voters, and Muslims?)
ReplyDeleteBut this latest Tebow saga tells us way more about the modern day Pharisees who are now criticizing him and making his decision something important - than it is about Tebow himself or even Jeffress.
Dog - You miss the point. This is the Southern Baptist dogma. We believe that marriage and sex is exactly the way it is specified in the bible. Everything else is sin. You do not have to agree with it and we respect your right to believe what you want and however wrong you want to be. We understand that there are religious affliliations that believe as you seem to and urge you to change your ways or go in peace. If your pastor is not winding up a discipline committee to deal with you, I have no respect for him either. My deacons and pastor would kick your butt right out of church, or you would capitulate with an open apology. I would not set foot in any church that condones your very public foolishness. You are not my brother. You cross the line on this one.
ReplyDeleteTim Tebow is learning a valuable lesson. These modern day scribes only "love you, church family" when you are doing what THEY want you to do. (Or when they are able to scam money from you through the false doctrine of mandatory tithing".
ReplyDeleteMatthew chapter 23 is just as true about the religious leaders of our day as it was when our Lord spoke them.
When taking Vines to task about his decisions on where to speak, don't give him a pass on TOM MESSER at TRINITY. He has stood in that pulpit and supported a man, TOM MESSER, who admittedly knew Bob Gray molested children and admittedly knew the church did not tell the congregation the truth. Yet Vines continues to speak at Trinity every year, which tells all those in attendance and all those children that were abused, that it is okay to molest kids and it is okay to hide it. Poor victims hearts must be torn out when they Vines and Messer getting the adoration of men.
ReplyDeleteDog - this criticism of Timmy by pastors who want to use Timmy to increase their own popularity and wealth reminds me of the hard working husband and father who is used by his wife to provide love and support to his family, yet criticizes him because he disagrees with the Man of God's interpretation of the bible. The man may be faithful, hard working, loving and giving sacrificially to his family's needs while denying himself daily, yet he is looked down upon and disrespected despite all the good he is doing. Simply because he just can't bring himself to believe "and the donkey did open his mouth and speak." So what?
ReplyDeleteWhat did TBN star Graham have to say about Tebow's decision?
ReplyDeleteRobert Jefress is clearly not the best example of how to engage the culture on such divisive issues. Of course SBC defenders will remind us how Jesus and Paul never compromised the truth and even got in people's faces. On the other hand the word tells us if we don't do it in love we are just a clanging cymbal. I do not blame Tebow for distancing himself from a supposed professional communicator who chooses his words so carelessly.
ReplyDeleteI'm confused. So, If you critize Tebow publically for his decison, you are a pharisee. So if you criticize for example, Mohler for criticizing Tebow, aren't you doing the same thing? You disagree with Mohler. Mohler disagrees with Tebow. Tebow would probably disagree with me. I dont' think disagreements are pharisaical. I don't know anyone whom you've labeled a Pharisee that hate the Gospel, and want to kill Jesus.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, my tone is a friendly one. I actually like reading this blog.
To the Anon at February 23, 2013 at 6:55 AM
ReplyDeleteThe Southern Baptists, and other conservative Christians, don't take biblical teachings on sex seriously. You think they do, but in reality, they do not.
If they did, there would be support from the pulpit, Christian blogs, dating advice books, and other Christian material for Christians over the age of 30 who never married but are still virgins (and these are Christians who hoped for marriage, but it did not happen; the did not choose to remain single past the age of 30 or 40).
Instead, older Christian celibates and their needs and struggles are either usually ignored by most churches (because most churches and preachers are obsessed with defending the "nuclear family," hetero-sexual marriage, and advocating children/ parenting).
Or, when older celibate/single Christians are mentioned in Christian literature and other resources or in seromons, they are usually accused - by other Christians no less - of sinning, or of being losers.
Yes, even though the Bible says there is nothing wrong with singleness and life long celibacy, Al Mohler, leader of the SBC, and other some other conservative Christians, say that being single past one's early 20s (some of them say late 20s) is a sin.
Baptists and other Christians tell teen aged Christians to be celibate until marriage, but when those teenage Christians do abstain, and never marry later in life (and hence remain celibate past the age of 30 or 40 or 50), they are insulted and mocked by the Al Mohlers and other Christians.
The only reason you do not notice this phenomenon is that you are married.
When you are a married Christian, the mistreatment of older singles goes largely un-noticed because it does not impact you directly.
Christian men are addicted to pornography at the same rate as Non Christians.
High percentages of Baptist / conservative evangelicals are having sex outside of marriage.
So to say that Southern Baptists or other groups of Christians care about or advocate biblical teachings about sex is largely untrue and even laughable.
How does one tell if one's comment goes through?
ReplyDeleteI just submitted a comment as an Anonymous poster, but go no kind of feed back indicating that the post was received or may be posted.
I would like to know how these pastors figure he is bowing to pressure, and going with culture...etc.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many actually spoke to him, and then listened.
High percentages, they, You Think...
ReplyDeleteBuddy, you are using all of the keywords for a very poorly structured and ill conceived argument.
The point is this. I and my family are members of a SBC church because the SBC stated and publicized dogma closely reflects my beliefs. The day that my pastor teaches otherwise is the day he will be asked to leave or apologize after some correction.
In short, either you are with us and believe the SBC dogma, or you should move on to a church outside of the SBC that more closely reflects your belief.
I recall that there was a time when the Catholics explored the idea of letting priests marry. Their answer was that clergymen could lead a fulfilled life at a church where matrimony was alowed. That is a nice way of saying - "we are sticking to the horse that we rode in on." Who can argue the worldly success of their dogma? (See the Vatican)
What Tim is learning is that the best you can hope for is for about half the people to agree with you one way or the other. Tim gained nothing from his cancelation. He is a smart man and I think he will learn his lesson. He is a SBC fixture, a leader, and he is stuck with a very outspoken Christian image. The press is only getting warmed up and there is a lot more to come. I am praying for Tim and other SBC leaders to sustain their conservative beliefs that I value.
Read your Bible.
Tim is looked up to and followed by Christians as a role model of biblical Christianity. We don't know why he cancelled, but it looks like he is backing away from media persecution for associating with a church that stands for biblical truth. The bible is clear that as Christians we will be persecuted as Jesus was. He better be sure he is pleasing God and not man. Otherwise, he will lose God's favor!
ReplyDelete@ STT,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if your post was for me or for the guy who owns this blog (thank you to him for posting my previous comments, by the way).
(I'm the same Anon who wrote the Anon post at 4:39 PM).
The information I put in my last post is out there, all you have to do is Google it to verify it.
Divorce rates, pre marital sex, porn addiction, and spousal abuse, are common among Southern Baptist men, and in other groups of conservative Christians.
One reason the Southern Baptist Church has recently been encouraging Christians to get married as young as ages 18 - 22 is because they are aware that Christians are having sex outside of marriage at the same rate as Non Christians.
Al Mohler, leader of the SBC, has said he thinks Christian teens agers should get married right out of high school. He thinks this will cut down on the amount of fornication among Christian teens.
I don't know if we are allowed to put links in our posts on here, but here are some links that back up what I said in the last post (you can find more on your own by doing web searches):
Pastor Comes Clean About Porn Addiction
Contains stats about sexual activity among Christians:
Sex in the Body of Christ
From the page “Pastor Comes Clean About Porn Addiction,” a news article on Christian news site CBN:
The statistics are startling.
Fifty percent of Christian men and 20 percent of Christian women admit that they are addicted to pornography (Christiannet.com June 07).
Fifty-one percent of pastors say cyber porn is a possible temptation; 37 percent say it is a current struggle (Christianity Today Leadership Survey, December 2001).
Of Promise Keepers attendees, one of the largest Christian men’s conferences in the U.S., 53 percent admitted to viewing pornography regularly (Internet Filter Review, 2006).
-----(end article excerpt)-------
Southern Baptist leadership and many SB lay persons (and other conservative Christians) talk a good game about sexual purity, but they are not actually living it out, and they don't support older, never married Christians who remain celibate.
Al Mohler, leader of the SBC, has said he thinks Christian teens agers should get married right out of high school. He thinks this will cut down on the amount of fornication among Christian teens
ReplyDeleteLess unmarried to sin....man's a genius.
Pastor Wade. You are SPOT ON! Good job and great comments. I am so tired of the hypocritical statements of men who think they know more than God... who say they know what people should do because they think "they are so close to the Father..." Hogwash! In reality they are out of touch with what's Spiritually true and right. They are the ones who are out of touch with the God of the Bible. I am proud to read to read your blog... keep it up.
ReplyDelete@ stt
ReplyDeleteNo, he's not a genuis. Telling people to marry young doesn't solve any of these issues.
The problem is, many Christians don't get married until age 27 or later, in spite of what Mohler and others say.
Age of first marriage for most Americans (including Christians) is higher now than it was 30 or more years ago, and keeps getting higher.
Also, marrying younger does not stop sexual sin among Christians, because married Christian men are having affairs, divorcing their wives, and/or addicted to online porn as much as Non- Christian men are.
Being married is not halting the epidemic of sexual sin among Christians. Even a lot of Christian pastors admit to being addicted to pornography.
Also, Mohler, SBC, and other conservative Christian churches continue to ignore the needs and problems of older Christian celibates - because Mohler and company are not truly interested in sexual purity, they only claim to be.
Statistics and U.S. Census records reveal the following: age 20-24 and 25-29 year old males never married in 1970 were 35.8& and 10.5%. Females were 54.7% and 19.2%. In 2008 the percentages for males were 86.9% and 57.6% while females were 76.4% and 43.4%. As one can see there are a big difference in the those 38 years. I would suggest that people are waiting longer to get married or possibly not getting married altogether. While these facts are significant I do not believe any sociologist can determine why this is happening. Possibly education, economic conditions, taking care of an elderly parent, etc. etc. Just pointing your attention to the real world of unmarried households in the godd old USA.
ReplyDeleteI think Tim did the right thing. If you read the various accounts FBC Dallas is called a controversial church. Tim doesn't need to step into this position and attempt to clarify whether he agrees or disagrees with whatever is being said at any particular time. Jesus was the only one who could dismiss a crowd because he knew the intent of their heart. People look on the outside and oftentimes they think what they hear is truth when in fact it is false. Let Tim be what he has been:good character and good courage. The right team will pick him up and he will be great again is my hope and prayer.
ReplyDelete@905
ReplyDeleteHow do you know what Mohler believes?
Give it a rest, Tom Rich.
ReplyDeleteTebow caved to pressure from the secular world, plain and simple. Apparently his endorsement dollars are a little more important than biblical truths. The very truths he claims to believe in.
He cited "new information" as to his reason to cancel, yet refuses to explain what the "new information" is.
Why so vague, Tim? What's the "new information," Tim?
There's no new information. The very church Tebow was raised in, and his family are current members of, share the same exact convictions as the pastor of FBC Dallas.
There is no new information. Tebow caved on his own beliefs.
Coward.
Thank you, Chief Pharisee, for chiming in and helping make my point.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you can tell us the "new information," Tom Rich.
ReplyDeleteIf there's, indeed, new information, let everyone else know about it. Again, why so vague? Maybe because there is NO "new" information.
You're as big of a fraud as Tebow, Tom Rich.
What's the new information, Tebow? Answer that question and most doubters will cease. Until then, you're a sell out.
ReplyDeleteApparently the "new information" was/is that he'll lose endorsements ($$) if he doesn't stand up against the very things he supposedly believes.
Readers - need to give credit where it is due, and I want to say "thank you" to Jimmy Scroggins, pastor of FBC West Palm Beach, for this excellent article in support of Tim Tebow's decision to not speak at FBC Dallas.
ReplyDeleteWhile SBC preachers everywhere are saying the sky is falling, we need to pray for Tim Tebow, etc. etc. - even here on this blog you see the ugliness of it all - Scroggins is a voice of reason in the madness.
I'm going to say that Scroggins reads the Watchdog, as some of his statements he posted yesterday are very close to what I said about 12 hours earlier on my blog.
Here is what Scroggins says:
"Here is what Tim Tebow has done with his public life – he has used it
as a platform to do good works in the name of Jesus, to explain that
all people have a need for Jesus, to tell all people that Jesus loves
them, and to invite all people to trust Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
And now he has decided not to speak at FBC Dallas."
"Many Christians have been critical of Tim’s decision. Others have
been critical of his explanation for his withdrawal. I’m sorry if Tebow
can’t meet your standard for speaking in public. This young man stands up for Christ, tries to do what is right, and proves with his actions
that his faith is more than words."
Pretty much what I was saying.
I have always liked Jimmy Scroggins, and I'm glad someone in the SBC understands that Tebow doesn't answer to the Holy Men of Gawd in the SBC, that he is his own man, and that he has earned the right to speak where HE thinks it best, and to not where he thinks it not wise.
And glad to know Jimmy reads the Watchdog. :)
"There is no new information. Tebow caved on his own beliefs.
ReplyDeleteCoward."
Wow Anonymous @ 12:49, I love how you call him a coward, yet you post your comment anonomously. Hypocrit much?
Scroggins took a postion with the advantage of history. He waited for others to take a stand and turned his back on them. I too like Scroggins preaching, but he would have been better off remaining mute. Not everyone agrees with Scroggins.
ReplyDeleteI am disappointed with Tim's decision and, barring some unrevealed scandal, I think it was the wrong one. Tim gained absolutely nothing. He would have been better off just shrugging off the Left's antics and moving forward.
I like this blog, but this post sounds like a liberal wrote it.
ReplyDeleteCalling people Pharisees is just another immature way of wagging one's finger and saying "Judge not" without really knowing the Bible's teaching on judging.
Also, it reads as if you don't think you can learn from people even though Ephesians 4:11-12 says, "Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ."
I'm not saying Tim Tebow is right or wrong in bowing to pressure, and he DID bow to pressure, but the first story I read bout this said the pastor of the Dallas church is a controversial radical because he has called Mormonism a cult and said the Catholic church is apostate. And my first thought was "he is radical because he calls it as it is?".
We should cut Tebow some slack, but to call Al Mohler a Pharisee is just ridiculous.
Btw, Nicodemus was a Pharisee, Judas Iscariot was a Disciple.
Not all "Pharisees" are unredeemable.
(I'm not saying anyone in this story is Judas. Just making an observation.)
Tebow is sitting the bench in the NFL and now in the Church too.
ReplyDeleteThis is a sad commentary on so called "Heroes".
At least Ergun goes and speaks wherever they will call him...he does not discriminate against Churches.
Tim Tebow, you could learn from Dr. Caner. Don't bow to the pressure of this world and worry about what people think.
Dr Caner is a true hero and I thank God for his courage to go back to Churches and speak after he lied to everyone....
Probably no one commenting here knows what Tebow's life is like or what he thinks or what he prays about.
ReplyDeleteIt is true that Jeffress leverages controvery for media attention. You can say no, it's boldness for the gospel. But it's leverage. Totally calculated to get a response. It triggers a lot of fist pumping from FBD members. The problem is, I don't think it's doing much to spread the gospel.
Vines' comments were disappointing, as were Graham's and Warren's. Yet, all were predictable.
Scroggins nailed it. Perfectly. I thank God that he wrote what he wrote, from his heart, and that someone published it.
Tim Tebow is not a coward.
I am no fan of Tim Tebow or his Tebowing, but I have no objection to anyone being thankful to God for whatever skills and opportunities they have.
ReplyDeleteI am also no fan of Jeffress, b/c he is a narcissistic loud mouth seeking the spotlight any time he can. There is not an ounce of humility in the man.
To say the Tebow has given in to pressure is to deny him his right to explain his own behavior, which he has. He admitted that he had accepted the invitation to speak without fully considering it and, having learned more about the host and venue, decided it would be best if he did not. That is an honorable thing. I do not think any less nor any more of him for making that decision. I hope he has learned to fully investigate how others may be seeking to use him for their purposes before accepting speaking engagements in the future.
Can anyone, or Tebow, or anyone (repeated anyone, I know) tell us the "new information" Tebow received?
ReplyDeleteFact is, Tebow refuses to release the "new information" he received. Why? Because there is no new information.
Gator fan Tom Rich should at least agree to that, right?
Not holding my breath.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you do a blog post asking Tebow the "new information" he received that kept him from appearing at FBC Dallas?
You're probably as big of a coward as Tebow apparently is, aren't you? Looks like you only like attacking genuine leaders of the faith.
Again, what's the "new information?"
Tom? Timmy? Anyone?
February 24, 2013 at 8:08 PM
ReplyDelete"Tim Tebow is not a coward."
Yes he is.
Quote: "At least Ergun goes and speaks wherever they will call him...he does not discriminate against Churches."
ReplyDeleteAsk Dr. James White if Ergun will speak where he is invited. Or does he just not want to answer the questions that he knows James White will put to him?
Anon 7:45 PM,
ReplyDeleteErgun does not go to wherever he is called. He does however make up places that he has gone.
I'm a huge UGA fan but I really like Tim Tebow, because he is a genuine Christian man who spends his money and free time helping those in need:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dailygood.org/more.php?n=4876
http://fairfaxstation.patch.com/articles/tim-tebow-and-clifton-woman-form-unlikely-friendship
It seems as if some prominent pastors view standing up for Christian beliefs as only speaking out against homosexuality (as if for some reason gay people don't know that we think they are sinning) and can't respect that some people choose to spend there time showing Christ's love.
This is unbelievable, so these leaders don't even realize that this is most likely a liberal squeeze on Tebow to make these reasons why he is not speaking and bowing out. I wonder how long it took for them to pour on onslaught on Ray Boltz. I think Ray could have turned around and been helped but I really wonder how quickly the insults came after news got out. I read recently that Barna research came out and found out that young non going teens and other young people think that being a Christian means that your primarily focus in life is to be anti-gay. I lost a brother in death to the lifestyle and believe me hated seeing every minute seeing what was happening. Please be honest lets look at other things as well, leaders, like malice, factionists, and dissenters.
ReplyDeleteI was watching a video a few minutes ago to where Jefress basically was generalizing Judaism into a statement about salvation along with Mormonism. In knowing some Messianic Jews and how they teach, this statement the way it was phrase does come off as anti-semitic. Not really a great communicator by any means. He also said that 70% of gays have AIDS, this is not a correct stat. 70% of AIDs cases involve those involve in homosexual activity. The stats are staggering among heterosexuals as well.
ReplyDeleteWhy all the consternation over "new information?" It simply means that he didn't know everything about the venue he was going to speak at. What he learned was new information to him.
ReplyDeleteAll "First Baptist" churches are not cookie cutter in WHAT they believe, or equally as important, HOW they communicate.
It behooves any outside speaker to look into venues more deeply before committing. I'm sure Tebow will be doing more vetting for future engagements.
"My deacons and pastor would kick your butt right out of church, or you would capitulate with an open apology. I would not set foot in any church that condones your very public foolishness. You are not my brother." Anon 2/23, 9:06 AM
ReplyDeleteCan't you just feel the love of Christ here.
To the Anon who keeps asking what the "new information" was.........
ReplyDeleteTebow does not owe us this information. In fact, he may be withholding the information for good reason. You really need to try to look at things from a slightly different perspective. Let's assume for a moment that the "new information" is about unwise comments Jefress has made about Obama, Muslims, Aids, Jews, or LGBTs. If Tebow were more specific he would then get drawn into a discussion about how and why Jefress is wrong and what he should have said instead. Should Tebow really be the one to lecture Jeffress in the public square about his tone and choice of words? He is not a Pastor, scholar, or theologian. The people who should correct Jefress are leaders like Mohler, Graham, and Vines. Unfortunately they have chosen to express disappointment in Tebow while supporting Jefress. Thank God for leaders like Jimmy Scroggins who are willing to take a bolder stance.
One more comment, at risk of confusing the issue with facts....
ReplyDeleteThere was a D Magazine cover story about Jefress a few years back. The secular journalist followed him around for days and really go to know him. The perspective is interesting. Read it if you are willing to consider the possibility that everything is not as cut and dried and you may like it to be.
Here is one quote and a link to the entire piece.
"He says that Mormonism is a cult and gays are “filthy.” But he says it because he really, truly doesn’t want you to go to Hell."
http://www.dmagazine.com/Home/D_Magazine/2012/January/The_Savior_Robert_Jeffress_of_First_Baptist_Dallas.aspx
Tim Tebow did the prudent thing. He does not need to get caught up in the drama that surrounds so many of our churches today. He is more valuable as the point man for what is decent than he is in trying to prove some esoteric point of doctrine no matter how right it is.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, I have never been in a witnessing situation where it was a good idea to start off with, “So you’re a ________, you’re going to hell then.”
I've ready this blog for a while and find it quite interesting. Ive never commented before. I live in the Dallas metroplex and what I find preplexing was when the local media interviewed Dr. Jeffress about the whole debacle was not so much was he had to say about Tim Tebow, but rather how many times he mentioned that church is dedicating not simplay a new facility but a 130 MILLION dollar facility. I'm beginning to wonder who loses or benefits most, and which actually furthers the cause or christ. Just remember he words...We are dedicating a 130 Million dollar facility over again a few times in your head. Who is truly trying to benefit whom!!
ReplyDeleteI guess I am confused. Does Tim Tebow not have the right to speak or not to speak when and where he wants?
ReplyDeleteWhy does he owe anyone an explanation? He is free to do what he wants. This is between him and FBC.
Why can't people mind their own business?
And the guy who called him a coward, you are a very small person.
Tim Tebow is not a Christian.
ReplyDeleteThis is proof that he is more concerned with what man thinks than what God thinks.
I am sick and tired of these "Christian heroes" being set up on a pedistal.
God will knock his sorry butt off that high horse he is on and Tim, get your tail down to a local altar and get right with God!
I recall Jesus telling the woman caught in adultry "where are your accusers" and "neither do I condemn thee go and sin no more". I think those that read the Bible and criticize Tim need to take a real close lesson from Jesus. He always tried to help the down and out and the poor and even the rich. Can we have some civility here? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteCan't you just feel the love of Christ here.
ReplyDeleteChrist would have kicked his butt too...
Nothing worse than a guy that professes Christianity and becomes a member of the SBC(or any other denomination) and takes an opposing position in public. How can you dare to throw leaders under the bus like this. You are worthless as a Southern Baptist. You have no credibility whatsoever. Hot or cold baby...hot or cold.
"You are worthless as a Southern Baptist. You have no credibility whatsoever. Hot or cold baby...hot or cold."
ReplyDeleteMy experience as a former Southern Baptist was "hot" on fist pumping pride and pastor worship, "cold" on the fruits of the spirit.
Looks like nothing has changed.
It is no different for SBC members than any other religion in the sense that you need to go where you can be a supportive member. Can you imagine marrying and throwing your spouse or children under the bus? Who looks like the idiot?
ReplyDeleteHow about working somewhere and then trash talking them as they are sending you pay checks?
..or joining the Catholic Church and favoring abortion?
On and on ... you get the point SBC love it or move on. You want to be part of the problem or the solution. Bring a solution with your criticism.
"Tim Tebow is not a Christian."
ReplyDeleteThat assessment is just slightly above your pay grade TROLL.
Only a pastor-worshiper would make such a completely and totally moronic statement like that.
You are everything that is wrong with the church today.
"Tim Tebow is not a Christian."
ReplyDeleteWow. That is one prideful statement.
I tend to agree with anonymous of February 23, 2013 at 6:55 AM. The SBC really doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to sexual ethics. As far as Christian character and integrity, Tim and I are on the same road. But I'm old enough to be his dad. I can definitely tell you that older single Christians are not supported in Baptist churches. I respect Tim and would just advise him to be more careful when accepting speaking invitations in the future to prevent these mixed signals. We need to let our yes be yes and no be no. John Morgan III, St. Paul's Call International
ReplyDeleteTim made it clear in his posting that this was not an issue of agreeing or not agreeing with the Pastors beliefs, it was an issue of poor timing for more controversy in his life when he's on the hot seat of seeing where he'll end up in the NFL this year. Understandable!
ReplyDeleteHe is also a person that doesn't focus on stimulating controversy, but just has the heart to spread God's love and message in a caring merciful way just like Jesus would do, but he doesn't sacrifice truth, just how he delivers it with mercy and grace. Tim states truth and does live his life by the bible 100%, he is clearly a true sincere christian to the ultimate with no hypocrisy which is very evident consistently in his life especially with all the temptation of fame, power, money, looks, stardom. No temptation moves him from his deep conviction and relationship with God and sharing his message to the world. His character is a rare impeccable find these days and there is no one that can disrespect someone that makes the stand he does. He is a caring person to the core.
He just believes in delivering the gospel and the Love of God in a merciful manner and wasn't completely comfortable with how that church delivered their messages. But it doesn't make their beliefs different, just the deliverance of their beliefs.
And let me make it clear that people are wired differently, they need to hear truth in different ways. Some need it black and white and straight up, some need it with grace and mercy and love. They are both right and okay, they just both are different and Tim needs to be respected that he is not comfortable at this time to put himself in a position of controversy , he just wants to stick to his style of delivery of the same message, but in a different way.
He clearly is not changing what he believes in . The Gospel and what's right and wrong are clearly layed out in the Bible, Tim stands on God's word and truth 100% without doubt.