As I have already written about, just a few weeks ago Ronnie delivered a sermon to get his church members to believe that unless they fork over 10% of their income to their church, they are probably not real Christians. And to make his point he did not quote the Bible, instead he quoted the most abusive first-fruit-tithe-teaching pastor that is out there now: Robert Morris.
Here is what Ronnie told his church members:
This is Ronnie's mistake: he thinks "giving to God" means "giving to Ronnie's church". No, Ronnie, when I put my family first, and I pay my rent, and my insurance, and my kid's college tuition, and pay for my family's food and shelter FIRST, it means I place them above your 501(c)3 institution. It doesn't mean I don't fear God, or that I don't respect God. And the truth is, as Wade Burleson points out in his article today, this is what more and more church member are realizing, and it is why people are leaving church. They realize men like Ronnie Floyd are trying to manipulate them into thinking their church IS God's kingdom."Pastor Robert Morris says 'it's a real shame that Christians don't believe the importance of writing the first check [10% of your income to your church] because God is the one we value first. God is the one we respect first....God is the one we fear first. It's not the mortgage company we fear first, it's not the U.S. government fear first, we should live our lives fearing God first."
But Ronnie wasn't done quoting the wonderful Robert Morris, who as I said without question the worst of the mainstream evangelical first-fruit tithing abusers. Morris says non-tithers are arrogant, thieves, and subject to demon possession. He says do not pay rent or electric bill until you first give 10% to your church. He says church members must tithe to avoid divorce, or losing their kids or jobs to the devourer. Go to those links. Watch the video evidence of his teaching. This is the man Ronnie is quoting to his church as the premier expert on biblical financial principles.Back to Ronnie: Next, Ronnie put up Morris' mug on the overhead image screens (see image above), and the quotes from his book "Blessed Life":
"He writes a book called 'The Blessed Life'. You never read 'The Blessed Life"? You oughta get a copy of 'The Blessed Life'. It's one of the greatest books on financial matters that I've ever read."
Wow. Do SBC'ers know what is in this book? Ronnie says it's the best book he's read on finances. Only two explanations for that endorsement: either this is the ONLY book on finances Floyd has ever read or remembers reading, or by "best" he means "if my members will believe this nonsense in this book I can double or triple my church's revenue". Take your pick.But this book has a tagline at the bottom which says: "The Simple Secret of Achieving Guaranteed Financial Results."
This is health and wealth prosperity teaching. The book teaches people the concept of "first fruits" giving, that God requires the very first 10% of a Christian's income to be given to their church. This is not a recommendation - this is a requirement, for Morris teaches in this book that if you DO give 10%, God will bless you financially, "guaranteed". And God will "rebuke the devourer" - you know, like the mafia boss protecting your business if you share the profits with him. But if you do NOT give 10%, you are cursed by God, and God will not prevent "the devourer" from hurting you, your children, your spouse, your marriage and your finances. You think I'm exaggerating. No, this is what Morris teaches in the book, and what he teaches from the pulpit.
And Ronnie Floyd is pushing this nonsense on his congregation..
But Ronnie wraps things up with this quote from Robert Morris - note, he is quoting from a book written by Robert Morris, not from the bible:
"Robert Morris says these words: 'When God blesses you when you give the first fruits, being blessed means you're having supernatura power working for you'. Listen carefully, he says then 'By contrast, being cursed means having supernatural power working against you."Now Ronnie is going to interpret what Robert Morris says. He is not interpreting scripture, he is interpreting Robert Morris:
"When we honor the Lord with the first fruits, then I've got the supernatural power of God working for everything else in that bucket. But listen: if I don't wanna honor God with my first fruits, then I've got the supernatural power of God working against me and my buckets."Yep, don't give 10% to Ronnie's church, and God is going to work against you. You're "cursed".
When you get right down to it, this is about as anti-Christian of a message as you can get. As one writer said recently, to say you will be cursed if you do not tithe is really to publicly mock the work of Christ on the cross. Ronnie surely knows Galatians 3:13, where Paul says "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us".
So not only does Ronnie spit on the work of Christ with this teaching of the "supernatural power of God working against you" if you don't tithe, but he does it in the most arrogant and condescending way throughout the entire sermon. Watch him strut around and hoot and holler and point and bellow, here at this link. Or if you don't have 50 minutes of you life to waste, watch the 3 minute clip below.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, will likely be the next president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
I think that is perfect. The SBC deserves a man like Ronnie - a man whose search for revenue at his church ultimately harms the faith he professes.
And this is the man the SBC will likely get as their next president.
I think I've had enough of the direction the SBC has been headed the last few years. I'll call Monday and make sure my name isn't on the roll anymore. I can't stand it anymore.
ReplyDelete"Come up out of them..."
CJ - you have to see the entire video of him to get the full effect, as uncomfortable as it is. It is 45 minutes of an arrogant, pompous ass strutting around the stage, a mixture of yelling, aggressive finger pointing, and speaking in condescending tones and phrases. And all to manipulate his people to get a few more of them to belly up to the tithing plate. Sick stuff. But he will be the next prez.
ReplyDeleteWhat a sad organization the SBC has become. But don't tell the leaders of the SBC because they are all in denial. All is well.
ReplyDeleteThey are still looking for the few liberals so they can purify the SBC.
When everyone of the SBC members are gone--it will be purified.
For those keeping up with it this June, 2014 will be the 35th anniversary of the "official" beginning of the FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER"
Surely there will be a huge celebration that of the GREAT DECLINE the TAKEOVER ushered in at the sparsely attended 2014 SBC Convention.
Put him on "Praise-A-Thon" with some of his TBN brothers and sisters. He is perfectly qualified to be president of the great SBC. I nominate Steve Gaines as VP.
ReplyDeleteThe FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER" ended when "The Purpose Driven Life" and "Purpose Driven Church" dominated evangelical churches everywhere.
ReplyDeleteMy neighbors are SBC members. Their children are miserable with all the church stuff they do. Going to this conference, and that "life changing" CONFERENCE. They are so busy doing their "church stuff" that they don't have time to do family stuff. It really is sad, and none of this busy garbage has ANYTHING to do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It is all to serve a religious system, a pastors empire, and the dads prideful climb up the church "leadership position" ladder.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI non aligned myself years ago from the SBC. I am a theological conservative, but I am no moderate. And I have some independent baptist leanings, but I am no fundamentalist. So I have no home. There is a machine structure that elects and re elects the SBC leadership. It is the same kind of structure that J Frank Norris railed about 90 years ago. I am not of the same cloth as Mr. Norris, but he wasn't wrong then about this good old boys network, and he wouldn't be wrong today. Regarding Mr. Floyd : I am concerned about this all or one theology. In his world view people are either with him or against him. It doesn't leave room for God's grace that saves us who are less than perfect. A poor person who is trying to support his family would be perfectly right for taking care of his family first, but Mr. Floyd and his ilk don't see it this way. Also the whole concept of the tithe is controversial: from such reputable preachers and theologians such as IM Haldeman and John McArthur. Are we supporting the church or are we supporting the megachurch is a question I ask? These mega churches and their endowments need massive financial infusions to support their liberal and wreck less spending. How many are teetering towards disaster, so this becomes a cry of desperation and not something grounded in careful exegesis of the Word?
ReplyDeleteMany Christians never tithe as only about 10 percent of congregants actually tithe in Baptist churches. Therefore. for those Christians that make contributions and all those that do give even more are never placed in the position of being demon possessed. Once the Holy Spirit enters a believer Satan can never possess that person. This is a bad and false teaching. It is unbiblical and should be taught correctly that the lost person is capable of being demon possessed and if they get saved the demons are removed by the Holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteAnon - you are right, very few people actually are giving the full 10%. But I do know from experience that the guilt that this puts in people's minds is tremendous, and that guilt might not get a man to give 10% of his income but it will serve to maximize what he will give. So they keep pushing it.
ReplyDeleteThe New testament says that is a man does not provide for his FAMILY he has denied the faith is worse than an unbeliever.
ReplyDeleteReligious conmen say that if any man doesn't provide for his pastor he IS an unbeliever.
Who you gonna believe, the Word of God...
or some lazy jobless arrogant pompous clergyman that makes a living adding his opinion to God's Word?
Mark, I was thinking about J. Frank Norris this morning and wondering what he would say about the present SBC....and I am anything BUT a supporter of Norris.
ReplyDeleteNo, the SBC is going to kill themselves in my lifetime. It is just a matter of time before these charlatans become just another mainstream religion that is a shell of its former self...
Anon 12:26,
ReplyDeleteThis is worse than you think. JaxWD correctly blogged about Morris' demonic possession sermon. But that was ONE sermon in an 11 week series called Free Indeed all about Christians being demonically possessed for not obeying God. Morris teaches Satan steals your tithe first, your children second. If you don't want your children possessed you need to fork over the 10% first. Morris claims at the end of the series that his exorcist, Milton the carpet cleaner, said Morris was possessed by more demons than anyone else except James Robison of Living Today fame. Milton exercised Morris' many demons while Morris was a pastor (there goes your Holy Spirit theory) and Morris performed his own mass exorcism on his flock on 12-28-13 although with the caution that if you don't repent and keep the 10% vig coming Regan's head will start spinning again.
Worse news? Morris' Leadership + Worship Conference on Oct 14-15, 2013 (with Perry Noble and Joel O'steen) focused on demonic possession and exorcisms. 3,200 impressionable pastors desperately seeking to "grow" their churches like Gateway, were taught to tell their congregants that they are possessed by the devil for not tithing and their only hope is paying 10% to their pastor who now,courtesy of Morris, has the "special powers" of Milton the carpet cleaner to cast out their demons. What would you be willing to give to someone who delivered your children directly from Satan?
Worse news still. Thomas Nelson is publishing this entire series into Morris' new book so this despicable new form of extortion can be exported to over 200 countries. JWD, how is this legal?
Before I retired I was making a good salary and always gave 10% of my gross income to my local church. It was easy for me. I was really just giving from extra money I had. And boy did I think I was something, writing that big check every two weeks!
ReplyDeleteBut people who struggle to make ends meet, it is a real burden on them to give 10%.
Thanks to this and other blogs, I know the 10% tithe is not for us new covenant believers. We should be generous, cheerful givers!
The 10% tithe taught in our local churches makes it easy for people who make a good living, and it's a terrible burden on those who don’t make as much.
It will be interesting to see if he runs unopposed like Dr. Luter did?
ReplyDeleteIck. Just ick. Is it any surprise that Floyd is getting the nod when so many mega churches are stealth SBC, and teach the same lies!? Furtick and Noble have both invited Morris himself to teach at their factories, I mean "churches," to bully their people into forking over 10% PLUS(you know 10% is the MINIMUM!). The sludge these awful men serve up week after week and call truth is sickening. With few exceptions, every one of the large organized churches have their hands in each others pockets. Whatever makes money is acceptable "doctrine." Don't rock the boat bro.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it interesting that Jesus told his disciples to go into all the world and spread the Gospel (Matt 28:19-20). He didn't tell them to take a bucket or the purse. Judas who was a devil was the false disciple who carried the purse and was never interested in winning souls but just concerned about MONEY. The apostle Paul worked for a living as a tentmaker never asking those he preached to for anything and gave his life as a witness for Jesus. It seems to be the problem today why churches fail is because they are seeking mammon rather than men which Jesus commanded his pastors to do making them fishers of men. Pitiful just pitiful.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Wade Burleson is my favorite Christian day to day writer, I am not convinced that a 501C3 institution is a tool of the Kingdom of God. Any institution that is not in accordance with the Bible is, well, not in accordance with the Bible! It then relies on the inherent goodness of the man in charge. Well, do we depend on men? Is there inherent goodness in men? No. I think that in considering these institutions as tools to help God, that maybe this was the thinking of those who first handed their keys to the Kingdom over to the state. (This became the Roman Catholic Institution.) There is that idea that an institution can “steady” the worship to God, just as Uzzah thought to steady the Ark. Wade wrote, “There is nothing inherently wrong with another tool for kingdom work evolving.” There also seemed to be nothing inherently wrong with Uzzah steadying the Ark on the wobly cart. But God had given specific direction for moving the Ark. God has also given specific directions for His people being the church as Wade has so eloquently written about in so many of his Biblical articles. I really think institutional churches always end up contrary to God's Kingdom. I think we Christians need to look hard into this issue.
ReplyDeleteJoe
I was a member of Floyd's church from 1997-2001, when I was younger and more gullible. He is as bad as it gets when it comes to celebrity pastor arrogance and expecting his sheep to fall in line and do what he says, without asking questions. I left his church after he called for the whole church to fast for a week. The week-long fast culminated in a Sunday night service in which he passed out a handout which was a diatribe against the sheep for various acts of disobedience, one of which was not tithing, and not tithing on income other than non-wage income, such as investment income. At the conclusion of the service he told everyone to kneel down at their pews and repeat after him. He then made several "I will" statements which the sheep repeated. I don't remember all of them but one was, "I will obey my spiritual leaders." That's when I knew Floyd and his church were bad news.
ReplyDelete"When I put my family first, and I pay my rent, and my insurance, and my kid's college tuition, and pay for my family's food and shelter FIRST, it means I place them above your 501(c)3 institution. It doesn't mean I don't fear God, or that I don't respect God. And the truth is, as Wade Burleson points out in his article today, this is what more and more church members are realizing, and it is why people are leaving church. They realize men like Ronnie Floyd are trying to manipulate them into thinking their church IS God's kingdom." AAAAAAAAMMENNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!! They are right about one thing - God owns it all and that's why he doesn't need a tithe to pay a mortgage in heaven. These browbeaters are the ones who don't fear God.
ReplyDeleteTom I think you really need to write a book about your testimony about FBC Jaxsonville and the lack of honest proper church discipline that took place. I have someone who looked at me funny when I mentioned to them the other day about not be a big fan on Man Brunson. They knew nothing about your story. To be honest after seeing the stained glass features going up in the new chapel in SWBTS, I was given a wake up call on this false sense of conservatism and a anatomy of a Baptist papalcy takeover. I saw the stained glass windows with recent men of the conservatism in them and though "what in God's good name would compel this?" Ten percent tithing does not need to be to "the elders" at all. As for Robert Morris, I commend him to giving to Messianic mission movement but not at the detriment forced slaying of conscience. But this I don't get and I was told by those in Messianic movement that legal tithing was limited to the land of Israel only and that tithing has to follow certain specifics out of food going to market. You really can't apply it logistically at all to a paycheck. They only way that an application of tithing can be done is after one looks at meeting true basic needs of their family and then tithing on income on what is left. Tithing on a paycheck and then assuming the rest is whatever I want and to get rich at the exploitation of others has problems. God wants Christians to consider how they spend all their money and also not just wasting the 90 percent or exploiting fellow Christians in their gain. Heck, if Muslims don't ask for more than 2.5% why are these guys like Floyd worried?
ReplyDeleteI was noticing he said giving out "social security" this would imply a double tithe from a earlier paycheck. He also butchers "lean not to your own understanding." That means that own can twist Scripture to their own interpretation. Which he is doing by the way.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:50 am or someone else:
ReplyDeletePlease say more about the chapel stained glass windows. Who are the men on them?
I found this on the internet:
ReplyDelete"Dorothy and Paige Patterson will be portrayed together in a window set to be made next year, Young said.
Windows already installed include a depiction of the late W.A. Criswell, who led First Baptist Church of Dallas and was twice president of the Southern Baptist Convention. He is shown baptizing a man in the Jordan River, in a window just west of the chapel’s main entrance.
O.S. Hawkins, director of GuideStone, a Christian-based financial services company, and his wife, the Bible study teacher and author Susie Hawkins, are depicted side by side near Criswell’s window.
At least 69 windows should be in place when the 12-year commission is finished, Young said, and there could be more as word spreads and donors come forward.
Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/12/13/5415582/stained-glass-windows-honor-leaders.html?rh=1#storylink=cpy.
All of this to celebrate the FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER that IMO destroyed the Southern Baptist Convention.
What a bunch of hog wash!!!
Wow! They're putting themselves on windows but will teach humility? Are we as stupid as they think? I wonder who else has a window? Surely Homer Lindsay and Jerry Vines ought to have a window if the credentials to being on a window is cr. Is Mac Brunson gonna be on a window?
ReplyDeleteAs a result of reading Ergun info on twitter I found a guy named JD Hall. He has a post on his blog about the bribes at Louisiana College. Someone made a comment that they've tried to get state Baptist news orgs to covers similar stories including Ergun. Sadly even our religious news seems to be filtered according to denominational politics. For example. Fl Baptist Witness has on its list of registered agents the wife of a mega church pastor. I doubt there will be any objective criticism of sin in the ranks. It seems we grant more esteem to men than the Lord. They're quick to church discipline laymen but not each other.
ReplyDeleteOh boy. Rick warren is etched in glass there too.
ReplyDeletehttp://apprising.org/2012/11/24/saint-rick-warren/
These pastors want you to "Render unto God that which is God's (however they like to spend God's money on themselves), but why do they never give to Czesar that which is his. Pay taxes you nonprophet profiteers!
ReplyDeleteSo good old Ronnie Floyd will be the next to clip the grass around the SBC headstone.
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem Tom Parker you are getting this either its not a fundamental ist take over but rather a legalistic egocentristic one. Fundamentalism extols grace and truth. These guy have been Machevillian pragmatists not biblical when dealing with those who were not opposing them but had merits to their disagreements like Wade Burleson and others. They lie about not taking jobs away and then turn around to sssay it is under the guise of being more biblical. Does not the Paul say to Timothy about watching your doctrine AND LIFE so as to save others?
ReplyDeleteProverbs 16:18. Pride corrupts people. No matter how gifted and laudatory a person may be, if all they hear is how great they are, they will come to believe it! Even believing they can do no wrong. How great they are?! Thirty years ago, Ronnie Floyd wrote his doctoral thesis at SWBTS on stewardship. It would be interesting to compare his thesis to his present views.
ReplyDelete"But don't tell the leaders of the SBC because they are all in denial"
ReplyDeleteThey are not in "denial." They know exactly what is going on and approve of it... That makes them no different than Ronnie Floyd. Their tactics might be different but they are all the same.They are all frauds...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteListen. You sheep are so gullible that you are proud to proclaim that you "believe it all from Genesis to Maps." Talking donkeys? Yes sir! Sun standing still? Absolutely? An ark with two of every kind of creature? Yes! A whale swallowing a man and spitting him up in a designated place? Truth! A man strolling across water? Check. Dead bodies coming out of their graves after the crucifixion? Yes indeed.
ReplyDeleteNot only do you proudly believe it all, but you are not to ever question it or doubt it! So,...stay with me here,...these men KNOW you will not question what they tell you is required by God in the way of giving your money to their congregation.
If you won't question any of the above things in the bible, why would you suddenly start thinking and reasoning when it comes to something so important as real money? You won't. And if you do, you will be shunned, labeled as attacking, told you are not a man, and pronounced as non-Christian and "not knowing the God I know."
So, you all deserve these guys! You brought it on yourselves. Enjoy! I mean wasn't that why you were saved...to add staff and build more, and bigger, and nicer buildings? Amen and amen. Suckers!
This article by Wade Burleson was cited in this article:
ReplyDeleteRonnie Floyd - the Next SBC President - Endorses Robert Morris' "First Fruits Cursings" Teaching
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/03/ronnie-floyd-next-sbc-president.html
But the problem is not just Ronnie Floyd:
My highest commendation to FBC Jax Watchman for blowing the whistle on Ronnie Floyd and this evil SBC empire!
Virtually every President of the SBC and Presidents of every SBC Seminary in the last 10+ years are Warrenites and promote compulsory tithing covenants of its members. Dr. Russell Kelly, who did his Phd on Tithing, demolishes this stronghold and Purpose Driven Plague, including Ronnie Floyd. Kelly's book and film documentary refutes them all and proves why they should all be disqualified from the ministry. The SBC upon discovering the Word of Faith Movement aphrodisiac, are now drunk with power in an orgy of spiritual abuse, the Judaizers in Galatians could only dream of such power and corruption, that Paul eternally damned.
Here is Russell Kelly's film documentary:
"TITHING IS NOT A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE"
Tithing is Not a Christian Doctrine"
http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com/post/category/tithing/
And here is his 285 book on tithing:
"SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING"
http://www.truthforfree.com/files/PDF/REK-Tithing3.pdf
Now Rick Warren has boasted that his Purpose Driven Life book is "the bestselling non-fiction hardback book in history", now disproven as fraudulent at:
http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com/post/is-rick-warrens-claim-that-his-book-is-the-best-selling-non-fiction-hardback-book-in-history-true/
This report was sent to current SBC President Fred Luter, Jr., and every member of the SBC Executive Committee, thinking TRUTH matters. Their response: "The Southern Baptist Convention does not renounce individuals." Feb 25, 2014
Can anyone say ICHABOD has fallen upon the SBC?
James Sundquist
Director
http://www.perfectpeaceplan.com
How should a church member give?
ReplyDeleteWhen should a church member not give?
Should a pastor get paid and to what standard should this aligned with?
Should church members expect the church to do certain things in certain ways if they do not give money to support the ministry?
Is Jesus interested in the giving which comes from our abundance or our poverty? (I guess this poverty means where it has a personal cost to us) On this question I read in the Bible that Jesus isn't criticizing the ones who gave from their abundance but applauding the one that gave from her poorness.The story I am referring to shows Jesus rejoicing and using as a lesson a woman who gave much more than a tithe. I find it interesting and challenging.
This is all Law. I thought the Church was under Grace.
ReplyDeleteLet me point out something else as I am filling up my gas tank. It took selling my oil stock to finally understand the fallacy of prosperity tithing. I have almost sold all my savings to live and I still give some too. But here is the problem with tithe teaching...its based on the idea that a welfare tithe is given every third year. That means an assembly is watching out for the needy and has the funds to do so because 15 percent of the budget (when you average it out on the calendar) is there to do so. Tithing can't be taught anyother way.
ReplyDeletehttp://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2014/03/interview-with-brewton-parkers-ergun-caner-by-j-gerald-harris-editor-published-march-6-2014-joe-westbury-index-r.html
ReplyDeleteOh my, double down? Haven't done anything wrong so don't need to repent!
Dr. Stanley had a good sermon this evening on cable about being an encourager. Tithing is discouraging. Pastors need to trust God and build up their members and quit worrying about the almighty dollar. When Jesus returns all these edifices to man will be done away with. Jesus met people in their homes, in the streets. on hillsides, and at the well. If He wanted the bodies of believers to build big churches He would have said so.
ReplyDelete“How should a church member give?”
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 9:7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
“When should a church member not give?”
Same answer, 2 Corinthians 9:7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
“Should a pastor get paid and to what standard should this aligned with?”
1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. In previous discussions it was asserted that “double honor” actually means double pay. That being said, median income in the United States in 2012 was $51,017 so double pay is $102,034. I dare say that $102,034 is far more than most church members make and I believe it is more than fair.
“Should church members expect the church to do certain things in certain ways if they do not give money to support the ministry?”
How much money does a person have to give to buy God’s grace?
“Is Jesus interested in the giving which comes from our abundance or our poverty? (I guess this poverty means where it has a personal cost to us) On this question I read in the Bible that Jesus isn't criticizing the ones who gave from their abundance but applauding the one that gave from her poorness. The story I am referring to shows Jesus rejoicing and using as a lesson a woman who gave much more than a tithe. I find it interesting and challenging.”
Oh, if only Lydia was still posting, she’d be all over this one. First, under the law, money was not given. Second, under the law, widows and the poor were not to give, in fact, a second tithe was given to support the widows and the poor. Therefore, Jesus is pointing out religious leaders’ hypocrisy and disobedience.
Anon 8:58 PM. The average wage 2000 years ago was a penny per day. Your assumption that pastors should make over $100k per year is pure fantasy. There are individuals who make over a million dollars per year so according to your suggestion possibly pastors should be given two million per year. And how would one make such awards? Is it based on number of members or the size of the budget? The former elders worked for their wages and took no funds from the groups they taught the Word. This is a slippery slope if there was one!!!
ReplyDeleteWishihadknown Honor does not mean money. It means honor. Most importantly the double honor applies when the elder always speaks the truth, is a prayer warrior, handles weddings and funerals, visits the sick, visits in homes and does not "count the costs" but rather attempts within every fiber of his being to please God rather than men.
ReplyDeleteOnce upon a time, not long ago, SBC published guidelines for a pastor salary were basically to figure out the 60th percentile of income from work in the congregation -- the income level that 60% earned less than and 40% earned more than, and treat that as the gross income from being pastor, counting housing allowance and salary. Benefits above that should match what was common in the community for health care, retirement, etc. Many churches also provided some additional if the pastor was filing as self-employed, to cover the additional SE social security tax.
ReplyDeleteThere was also some adjustment suggested for a congregation with a seminary trained pastor and a non-college background membership, to reflect the lower likely wages of the latter.
All of which does not sound like double of anything.
I base my thesis on median income which means half of the people make less and half of the people make more. To me this seems more than reasonable, especially if you double it. Personally, I think the median $51,017 is appropriate but I know no one will go for that. Anonymous, I am not sure how the million dollar amount comes in, to me the $102, 034 is the maximum.
ReplyDelete“And how would one make such awards? Is it based on number of members or the size of the budget?”
I base it on 1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
Anonymous, like I said in my posting, in a previous discussion someone else asserted that the double honor actually means double pay. Personally, I disagree with that interpretation but hey if you are going to put it out there I am more than happy to use it. Therefore I made my proposal of using median income. I do not know of a better way. $102, 034 is a lot of money, probably more than what 95% of what the members make. It is also a lot of pay for a job that is supposed to be a calling and a job “I didn’t take for the money.”
Do you have a better way that is at least loosely based on scripture?
This is great though, in at least three years no one has challenged me on this, so thank you. Also, if you are going to post a lot, could you get a screen name so we can tell you from the other anonymous posters? Thanks in advance.
Messianic friend of mine stated this to me. How is it that evangelical Protestant preachers will demand the tithe is for today but the other laws like Sabbath worship and a Christ oriented Passover service is TOTALLY ignored? The tithe is only for the Tax system in Israel. Support the poor in your congregations preachers and don't let Obama do it for you. Can you not see Obamacare as the hand of discipline on the churches of America? God is on the throne, get off yours. You have nine months left to figure this out rich preachers.
ReplyDeleteJeremy
Dr. Stanley had a good sermon this evening on cable about being an encourager. Tithing is discouraging. Pastors need to trust God and build up their members and quit worrying about the almighty dollar.
ReplyDeleteCharles Stanley is one of the most vocal tithing advocates around today. I've heard him preach on tithing many times and how God will not fully bless you if you don't "obey" Him by tithing.
Then there's his infamous car story which I've heard him tell several times. (It begins about 5 minutes into that clip.) How many of us, if our car was totalled, would have the luxury of "waiting on God" until some rich benefactor came along and gave us "a very nice automobile"? I dare say most of us would still be walking!
Oh, and Charles Stanley is one of several others, including Adrian Rogers, who has already been immortalized in stained glass at SWBTS. I would hope that Adrian Rogers, were he still living, would have refused to be a part of this lunacy, but sadly, I've concluded that he probably would have "humbly" gone along with it. If I were Joyce Rogers and the Rogers family I would have respectfully requested that my husband/father be excluded, but apparently none of them did.
These men were/are very proud of their "takeover" of the SBC. Unfortunately, today the SBC is reaping the rewards of that takeover, and their "leaders" are reaping great monetary rewards as a result.
I'm old enough to remember what was going on in the '70s. "Libruls" had invaded our Southern Baptist seminaries and were filling our "preacher boys'" minds full of bad, unbiblical doctrine. Something HAD to be done! Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler were household names back then and would "save" the SBC from this terrible threat.
I'm sad to say I and a whole lot of other people believed it. I'm convinced had we had the internet then their plans would have been thwarted, but back then our only sources of information were the biased state Southern Baptist newletters, the very biased Baptist Press, and our local churches whose pastors were parroting what they'd read and heard through the grapevine.
The internet = the great equalizer.
What was Reagan known for, trust but verify.
ReplyDeleteNEWBBC Forum: I referred to Stanley's sermon on encouraging simply to contrast the fact that so many pastors never "encourage" but rather they discourage their members. I am totally against NT tithing simply because the Pauline Epistles never mentions the subject. Just to clarify and thanks for your blog and comments you always bring to our attention.
ReplyDeleteoff topic but I just want to say I LoVE your profile, particularly the films and books and music. Woof!
ReplyDeleteI needed another laugh today. :)
Dear Wish id known,
ReplyDelete$102,034 is what a mega pastor spends on landscaping or his daughters business or upgrading his boat or in travelling to the next love offering.
God has left the building and so have I!
cavedweller
I certainly appreciate freedom of speech and anyone's ability to post their opinions online. I'm just curious as to the purpose of this blog. Is it for the glory of God or out of hatred for someone or some people? There is nothing on this blog that appears to glorify God in my opinion. Having a blog to bash others seems to do no good at all. This blog does nothing to "expose" something that needs to be exposed. It's just a blog to bash others. It's completely fine and normal for people to disagree on a subject but to hide behind a blog to bash people seems a bit weak to me. It does nothing positive. It exposes your hatred of others. You come across as someone who thinks you're holier than everyone else or you hate Christians. If you hate Christians and people who preach the Gospel, then that's your deal and you're free to have this blog that makes it apparent that you hate Christians. If you think your blog is some noble attempt to expose the sin of others publicly, the irony is that you've just created a waste of space for some haters to post their hate messages of others. If your goal is to glorify God and create a useful blog that communicates a spiritual message that you want others to hear and grow in their walk with the Lord, I might encourage you to speak that message rather than regular posts about pastors who you disagree with or hate. The hatred you are displaying through this blog is hurting no one but yourself. Having that type of attitude in your heart cannot be good for your health.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I'm sure you know this but there are more verses in the Bible on money and possessions than there are love, faith, and salvation. Over half of Jesus' parables dealt with money and possessions. The central theme is that God knows that where we choose to put our money is where our heart is. So preaching messages that stress the importance of giving our tithes and offerings is simply preaching the Bible. If you would rather preachers not preach about that, then you're not interested in one of the most important things the Bible teaches.
If you have a problem with a specific person, it would seem to me that the more mature thing to do would be to go to that person and seek to address your issue with them in person one on one. Or another option is to forget about them. Just don't listen to their messages any more. There are thousands of people on any given Sunday preaching to Gospel. Go listen to someone you like. Stop bashing the people you don't like...
5/31/14 at 9:02 a.m Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete"I certainly appreciate freedom of speech and anyone's ability to post their opinions online. I'm just curious as to the purpose of this blog. Is it for the glory of God or out of hatred for someone or some people?"
The purpose of this blog is for people like you, myself and others to read and comment on - it's available to you and anyone else. It's a forum for people to communicate and express their opinions. The author of the blog has as much right to critique a doctrine as any pastor has to declare it from his pulpit. False doctrine is harmful to the Body of Christ. False doctrine doesn't glorify God....so if light can be shed on it so that it's exposed, then I think the truth is revealed and that to me does glorify God. I for one seek out the opinions of others with regard to scriptural teaching. I know enough about Scripture to realize that I have not received the entire teaching on tithing at the Southern Baptist church I attended, or in any other church I attended. However, when I attended the SB church, tithing and membership were constant themes. Our pastor said if you are not going to be a member - you have to ask yourself "why am I coming here?" I can see now from this blog that among the SB leadership, tithing is a prominent theme and that explains it's emphasis in the church I attended.
I was researching this man because he endorsed the false teacher that came out of our church and is now in San Antonio getting ready to divide another church body. I was curious to see what kind of man would endorse him. Did he do his due diligence before he endorsed him? Did he know that our church was planning on letting him go when suddenly God "called him" to another church? I guess I wasn't too surprised to find out these things.
ReplyDeleteThese men are creating and building their own kingdoms and not the Kingdom of God. It is disheartening and at times disgusting.
What I find humorous in a sad way about the tithe to be blessed folks is that stress that the OT (where tithing was required) stresses the 10% rule. The ones I have debated have always said that the OT tithe is 10% and that we need to bring the "whole tithe" to God's storehouse. But what these "scholars" don't get is that there were three required tithes in the OT. That's right, three tithes. So depending on how one of the tithes was calculated (the tithe on the tithe), one could owe between 22% and 30% of one's income. So these folks are not even enforcing the tithe of the OT as they claim.
ReplyDeleteAs a former SBC pastor who served in GA and Alabama and then on the Executive Committee of the SBC, I affirm that the following salary ranges are what I learned from personal experience serving or from conversation with persons directly involved with institutions named.
ReplyDeleteOne should know that salaries are reported/given/itemized in a manner that safeguards their true value. Strictest confidence is enforced for those "brought in" under penalty of threat with legal repercussions for those who violate confidentiality agreement. I've simply lived too long to have any regard for such things. This should affect how my comments are read, but rather than hide them, I offer this bias at the outset. It has not, in this case, affected my report.
1. SBC President - ~ $500,000 (stipend/"one-time-gift" from which he pays for his own travel and related expenses unless covered by the church/institution; often expenses range between $70,000 - $115,000 and presidents typically underwrite SBC Pastor's conference and occasionally make large charitable contributions to other SBC entities- I know of one president who gave every last dime at the end of his term).
2. SBC Seminary Presidents:
a. Southern - < $723,000 (radio included)
b. Southeastern - < $300,000 (salary)
c. Southwestern - < $540,000 (salary only)
*cannot give president salary with any confidence on other seminaries.
3. IMB: As I recall, it is between $145,000 - $170,000.
As a side note, for frame of reference, when Dr. David Platt left Brook Hills, their budget for pastors (on the executive leadership level-that consists of 3-5 individuals) dropped by more than $180,000.
4. NAMB: Less confident here, but minimum salary for two most recent presidents (not including current president) < $150,000 - $180,000.
*You are, of course, free to edit the comment where my estimations are offered with some caution as documentation is less certain. I do not meant to give fixed rates, but rather a verified range so that Southern Baptists can have a better idea of how their offerings are being directed.
(cont. from above)
ReplyDelete**Finally, these figures require some context. I must remind readers that there are some aspects of each of these positions as prominent representatives of the SBC that do, to a degree, justify a certain range of salary.
In good conscience however, I can no longer justify the degree to which these salaries have increased. However, let me offer a few areas that do place upon the elected individual a financial burden. That burden is a direct result of their appointment. Some revel in the new luxury, while others have sought to invest responsibly and ought to be celebrated for that.
Clothing: Individuals, in order to represent the SBC with "class" is asked to dress in a fashion that brings some expense - not only the number of suits but the quality of suits required means that salary reflects this cost. This may seem trivial, but in order to work with and develop relationships among those able to contribute financially to the SBC there is some truth to the mantra that "you have to spend money to make money." Southern Baptists need to understand that some realities these leaders experience, while regrettable, do often upset the individual themselves.
Some seminary presidents work to avoid excesses (Ex. Dr. Patterson maintained an expense account that his successor, I believe, could not in good conscience accept. i.e. big game hunting expeditions for his "team" were re-directed to staff who are underpaid). This should be offset by the extent to which those trips also resulted in major donations to the institution involved. For example, Southeastern was able to build a new building because of the fundraising that Dr. Patterson accomplished. It is aptly named, "Patterson Hall."
Others do not. Dr. Mohler, as is well know, will only wear a tie twice. After he has worn it twice, he gives it away to seminary students who sign up to receive one of his ties for free. Since he makes so many appearances, he does not want to be seen in "the same outfit." This is a common practice and readers should be aware that he often receives ties for free. Still, Dr. Mohler will not sign his name or any document without a proper fountain pen. These range in cost from $120 - $600.
Each seminary president also gets to decorate their "mansion." Their personal library allowance can also be considerable. For example, Dr. Mohler is provided a personal librarian who works 20-25 hrs. per week to organize his personal, at-home library (i.e. re-stock books he has used, document and file new books etc). He has over 20,000 volumes. Again, many of these books he does not pay for. However, his account allows for him to spend around $5,000 annually on new books. Faculty receive around $1,000 for each year.
Regarding faculty, for the most part the faculty at SBC seminaries are dramatically underpaid. Often, their positions require them to work a second part-time of full-time position. Some accomplish this by pastoring others through their writing. Now, being on faculty at an SBC seminary does provide a platform for them, but it also potentially affects the oversight and investment in the classroom (virtual or physical) experience. They are men and women who ought to be held in high esteem.
All: I just have one question when the bible says to and it is Jesus whom said it. Give what is God God's and give what is Ceaser Ceasers. What do you think he was talking about? God says very clearly in the old testament to bring your first fruits to him. Where do you think the to him is?
ReplyDeleteIf you dont think that is the church then you really need to get your bible out and read it. It doesnt mean to support your family first etc.
You folks need really to wake up.