"Stay away from a factious man....somebody who is constantly trying to find something in the body to create controversy and upset about....go to him once, go to him a second time, but at that point, listen, [yelling] DO SOMETHING WITH HIM!!"
--------------------------
Some are logical, and some are a bit loud.
And some are just plain ticked off.
In the video above you will see Mac letting off a little steam, because apparently there are some "factious" men on the loose who are stirring up controversy, and Mac doesn't like it one bit.
Preaching out of Titus, Mac yells that the scripture is clear that the church should "do something with him"...about some unnamed "factious man"....but then later says they should "leave him alone", and "have nothing to do with him".
Funny, Mac's marketing man Maurilio Amorim said on TBN last week that his calling is to help pastors who "don't know any better, and who don't have any tools" to connect the gospel to their community. Please, someone Tweet Maurilio to let him know he still has some work to do down in Jax. Apparently he still has a pastor-client who doesn't know any better, and thinks aggressive finger pointing, yelling about factious people, telling people who not to listen to, and calling people "nuts" will reach his community with the gospel.
I have to wonder....just who is this "factious man" Mac is speaking about that is on the loose? What are these controversies being stirred up? And notice: no indication that they would discuss in love, or answer questions, or sit down and work things out. Nope. And nothing about loving the person. Just an angry preacher telling his church leaders to get the factious man to toe the line, or else "do something with him". Why not, "love him"? Nope, in FBC Jax's playbook, it is "do something with him".
Whoever said factious man is, Mac absolutely does not want his followers to listen to him. He says in the video:
"Stay away from him [that factious man]. Give yourself to profitable teaching...and stop these silly arguments, and pay no attention to these NUTS that are out here that are trying to do nothing but create controversy in the church."
There you have it, FBC Jax. Discipline Committee, you have your orders. Find the factious man, this "nut", do something with him, then leave him alone and have nothing to do with him (and his family presumably), and please, for the love of God, pay no attention to the any other NUTS who don't agree with your pastor.
And then pass a Deacon's Resolution and have everyone vote on it.
"FBC Jax - That Jacksonville May Know Church Discipline"
"Nuts" are really not a threat. It's a normal person with a legitimate argument against the church or pastor that obviously has sent this preacher into a fit.
ReplyDeleteThere have been many churches where divisions happened. I wonder if any of those situations were helped by one side calling the other side "nuts?" What happened to "love your enemy," "do good to them that despitefully..." Where is the respect of sitting down privately in a humble manner and discussing?
Well, anyway, I don't see how that sermon could be taken any other way than he's telling somebody to do something. Sounds kinda threatening.
Most of those in attending that morning are clueless as to what he is preaching on. Information to the general member is not shared and those members really don't care.
ReplyDeleteAllen
Hey Mac...
ReplyDeleteMy grandmother always taught me that pointing fingers was rude. Too bad you didn't get to meet her. She'd have cleaned your clock and wouldn't have cared about embarrassing you.
Stop waving that finger in the air while you rant and rave about nothing... it might go off.
I wonder who he is referring to. Hmmmmmm. Mac seems to be obsessed with you WD. Just can't let it go.
ReplyDeleteDid he ever explain what you are supposed to "do with him" before you ignore him?
I watched the video and I sense Pastor Mac's heart and passion for our great Church.
ReplyDeleteHe wants to protect the church...
He wants peace in the church.....
He wants purpose in the church...
He wants to purge the church.....
All of that is BIBLE!!!
Beware..Jesus said...when all men speak well of you...
Pastor Mac speaks the truth and sometimes it hurts us.
I am thankful for a Pastor that gives me what I need NOT what I want.
I want love and acceptance and mercy...
I need discipline, truth, and holiness.
So do YOU....
Titus 3:9-11
ReplyDelete9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
Mac, I can clearly see that you are twisting the scripture. Is it possible that the "nut" could be you?
Anon 9:25. . .as for myself & our family we left after many years of attendance because of him screaming, pointing his finger, and continuous berating the flock Sunday after Sunday as if we were school kids.
ReplyDeleteThis poor man is headed for a stroke or heart attack, he definitely has an anger problem which is shown in his body & verbal language. He has a poor reputation i Jacksonville & his message here shows it's getting under his skin.
Allen @ 8:07 . . .right on!
These "pastors," are more times than not, themselves, guilty of creating division in the Body because they are self-willed men that refuse to be held accountable to the Scriptures. Institutional churches are full of unqualified men ...........men that are not graced by Christ Himself, through the Spirit, to meet all the character qualifications to function as godly elders/undershepherds. It has been my experience that when Christians seek to live up to their responsiblity as good soldiers of Christ by holding their so-called leadership accountable to the Word and sound doctrine that these men immediately adopt a seek and destroy mentality cloaked with mis- application of the Word of God. There is no sense of commitment with these guys to shepherd according to 1 Peter 5...........they immediately violate their qualifications as overseers when in private, and immediately seek for "damage control" from the pulpit because there is no love in them. The so-called church is content to give blind allegiance to these men, and never question the disappearance of other members. Rather than being the true Body of Christ that should feel pain when "members" are lost, it is like a business that looks at people as numbers and expendable--replaceable.
ReplyDeleteJonathan
It's obvious that Christian believers are questioning the status quo of modern worship. This terrifies preachers like Mac, and is the cause of their anger. Mac and other Mega Pastors are scared that the sheep are thinking for themselves, and this is simply unacceptable. Furthermore, it must be stopped at all cost. These are desperate times for the Megas.
ReplyDeleteJust watching this few minutes of video makes me feel ill. It amazes me now that I sat and listened to someone scream at me three times a week for many years. I thought that's what preaching was. It's truly like being reprimanded as a child. Not fun. And why would ADULTS sit through it?
ReplyDeleteIf you were a kid and were stuck with a yelling, mean father, there's not much you can do. But as adults, we don't have to subject ourselves to it. Where else besides church DO we subject ourselves to such? Nowhere.
We are no longer children. We have choices and all kinds of power over our lives. Go to a church where the pastor doesn't yell. And never points his finger. And doesn't seem to be mad at the world. It's a whole new world. You deserve to be spoken to with respect.
The guy constantly ripping the early churches was...the aspostle Paul - and they deserved it! Paul even made some 'rips' public spectacles as we can read about these today in the New Testament. Wonder if those early church pastors got angry or changed their ways? Read your Bible. Are these folks factious or simply following Paul's example? It's all about attitude, namely pastor PRIDE!
ReplyDeleteSorry, I'm on a roll lately. Imagine bringing a friend from work or your neighborhood to hear a sermon like this. Maybe they've never gone to church much, and you're concerned for their soul. Imagine yourself sitting there and viewing the pastor and hearing the pastor from THEIR point of view. Wouldn't you be embarrassed? And why the heck would they WANT to come sit through that each Sunday??
ReplyDeleteWhat is the attraction of it?
"I watched the video and I sense Pastor Mac's heart and passion for our great Church.
ReplyDeleteHe wants to protect the church...
He wants peace in the church.....
He wants purpose in the church...
He wants to purge the church.....
All of that is BIBLE!!!
Beware..Jesus said...when all men speak well of you...
Pastor Mac speaks the truth and sometimes it hurts us.
I am thankful for a Pastor that gives me what I need NOT what I want.
I want love and acceptance and mercy...
I need discipline, truth, and holiness.
So do YOU...."
Good comment. You are an upstanding who is not a kool-aid drinker or man follower. You think clearly and express yourself correctly. Thanks.
"The guy constantly ripping the early churches was...the aspostle Paul - and they deserved it! Paul even made some 'rips' public spectacles as we can read about these today in the New Testament. Wonder if those early church pastors got angry or changed their ways? Read your Bible. Are these folks factious or simply following Paul's example? It's all about attitude, namely pastor PRIDE!"
ReplyDeleteYou make a great point. I actually liked the video and did not pick up on Mac being angry. I saw him holding conviction about something important (don't cause division in the church), like Paul clearly did.
Thanks for your comment.
when he says pay attention to "profitable" teaching, does he mean "profitable" like ergun caner? sorry, but when he starts talking about "nuts", thats an issue for me, as is the sociopath thing. I don't believe the Bible teaches name calling, but I'm not a learned scholar either. Maybe it does as in...woe you scribes and pharisees, hypocrites all.
ReplyDeleteand by the way watchdog, i don't think 99 percent of what you do is right, either.
ReplyDeleteWD:
ReplyDeleteI have to comment about Mr. Brunson's remark on being commanded to preach the Word.
This is yet another example of saying one thing and doing another....Most of his sermons are nothing more than history lessons and stories totally unrelated to his sermon.
I pray that he takes his own advice and begins to actually teach the Scriptures and no more historical events. He is actually a good preacher when he preaches the Word....too bad that that is very seldom.
The Word cuts to our hearts...not story book nonsense.
"Teachers with itching ears?"
The problem is this:
ReplyDeleteMaybe the controversial people are bringing up good points that clearly need to be dealt with, but in order to deal with the issue, you'd have to take a long, hard look at the leadership in charge.
The pastor isn't automatically right just because he's the pastor.
It's clear by discussion on other threads that there are some very strong issues that need to be dealt with or you're going to have even larger problems down the road.
How the church is handling its finances appears to be an issue just not because of examples brought up here, but also in secular sources like local papers.
The rampant churning of employees at the church is an issue. Every time you replace a staff member, the next one in the line is a little less effective and a little less equipped to handle the position and the climate of the workspace.
Nepotism, anyone?
These and other issues are directly related to the leadership of the church. If questioning the leadership automatically qualifies the person asking the questions as the divisive one who needs to "be dealt with" rather than answering the questions, if you can't see the problem, then you are blind.
What the church isn't addressing with the downturn in giving is that many in their congregation have either taken pay cuts to keep their jobs or don't have jobs anymore. If a person's salary gets cut, then the ten percent threshold is going to diminish as well. To require a person to maintain their present level of giving is to demand that they increase their giving percentage. To require a person to maintain their present level of giving when they have no income is absurd and abject greed on the part of the church.
Or are we now venturing into the health and wealth theology so prevalent as heresy in other denominations?
Jacksonville is one of the most devastated local economies in the country. Their housing market is among the worst in the country combined with increasing unemployment is setting the stage for the local governments and churches to have to ask themselves some very tough questions.
For FBC Jacksonville to continue with budget increases and pay raises is absurd. For the church to fund trips and other frivolities while demanding that their suffering membership amp up their giving is the height of arrogance and ignorance.
But, Mac is just a microcosm of the many in leadership positions across the Southern Baptist Convention.
And for all of you who support Mac, questioning his decisions is not a sin. It is not wrong to be concerned about how a church uses its resources for compensation of the staff as well as how it spends its money. It is not wrong to question how a pastor, his wife, and his son can be a half million a year in combined compensation with built in COLAs while the membership is losing their jobs or losing their pay. It is not wrong to question why some positions in the church are on their fifth, sixth, or even seventh individual in just a couple of years. It is not wrong to express concern that millions of dollars are being spent on carpet and pews while other churches are spending their money of food and clothing for the less fortunate in the community. It is not wrong to question why a church will abuse their positions of influence in the community to persecute a man with a computer.
It is wrong, though, for a leader to seek to destroy those asking questions rather than answer the questions himself.
Mac is hardly the worst. Perry Noble and his ilk actively seek to destroy those who would question their motives and methods.
0.5 million a year for team Brunson? I thought Brunson said he didn't earn anywhere near 300k per year.
ReplyDeleteWhen was this sermon preached?
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:27,
ReplyDeleteGreat comment.
"It is wrong, though, for a leader to seek to destroy those asking questions rather than answer the questions himself."
ReplyDeleteI don't believe the church has to answer all questions asked. The church does not owe those not part of the church an explanation as to why they make the choices they make. If they want too, great. If they don't, great. When a request comes in anonymous, no one is sure if this is a member or not. I would dismiss it.
Who does the church answer in regards to financial transparency? The church, as it has chosen as the church body to be transparent.
The church (not just the leadership on its own) has the right to choose for itself not to disclose salaries (as an example).
Does anyone know what policies were in place prior to Dr. Brunson arriving? Were the individual salaries shown?
Tom,
ReplyDeleteWhat would you do with "factious" people?
Jeff
The church (not just the leadership on its own) has the right to choose for itself not to disclose salaries (as an example).
ReplyDeleteThen it is not a church, it is an abyss waiting and looking for clear and present danger to preclude. One might think of it as a temple where a god is sot or ritualistic followed by the few. A strange place clocked by design, not trust worthy, a thorn, any thing but the real followers of the risen Christ.
"Then it is not a church, it is an abyss waiting and looking for clear and present danger to preclude. One might think of it as a temple where a god is sot or ritualistic followed by the few. A strange place clocked by design, not trust worthy, a thorn, any thing but the real followers of the risen Christ."
ReplyDeleteI am not following. Do you believe that a church, as an autonomous body, has no right to structure themselves in how they share financial information? That structuring themselves to not display individual salaries is a wrong thing? That this somehow makes them, not a church?
If a body of local believers chooses to choose ten men to make all the decisions, they have that right and it makes them no less a church.
If I am reading you correctly, I can't find any connection to such a definition for the church in scripture.
The church absolutely has to answer questions when it comes to finances. The full disclosure of salaries is a step to prevent accounting malfeasance.
ReplyDeleteIt's called being accountable and operating with integrity. In this day and age, with a FOIA request, I can find out the salary of any person working in the private sector and a couple of clicks on the internet will get me the salary of anyone working in the public sector.
If churches and pastors would get in front of these questions and controversies rather than destroy those asking the questions, you'd see fewer and fewer of these controversies. However, as highlighted by the fall of the Crystal Cathedral, you'll find that these churches are abusing the tax codes for nonprofits. One of the pastors at the Crystal Cathedral was paid almost 200K with 90% being called a housing allowance in order to avoid paying taxes.
I guarantee you that this is happening in other churches who shun financial transparency and financial accountability.
No pastor should fear transparency or accountability, by the members or other agencies.
A pastor should be afraid of the appearance of malfeasance and wrongdoing.
But then again, I'm venturing off into scripture, something that certain factions won't do unless they can shoehorn or outright butcher the scripture to say what they want it to say rather than what it says.
"The church absolutely has to answer questions when it comes to finances. The full disclosure of salaries is a step to prevent accounting malfeasance."
ReplyDeleteI disagree. Any church that chooses, as a church body, to no disclose salaries has that right. If they want a financial team to oversee these things and place their trust in them, that is fine. I can't imagine telling an autonomous church to do things my way, as an individual member, outsider or unknown asker of questions.
I support your right to hold that position but I don't see biblical support for your position.
Our BF&M speaks directly to the autonomy of the local church under the "church" section. Scripture included.
http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp
"But then again, I'm venturing off into scripture, something that certain factions won't do unless they can shoehorn or outright butcher the scripture to say what they want it to say rather than what it says."
I would like to see where scripture supports your view. I gave a link above to my position.
The church (not just the leadership on its own) has the right to choose for itself not to disclose salaries (as an example).
ReplyDeleteA place of worship in the name of the savior Jesus is not acrophobia. These preachers as well as the leaders in charge are not following the behavior of Jesus, instead they behavior exhibits anxiety in the public and private arena. Not a good follower of Christ. Jesus was not a private savior; at least an animal will look a person in the eye while the practitioner is unable to leave their safe haven of the bank account, LORD please help the children of god.
Jon,
ReplyDeleteYou keep referring to the church like it's a location, when we all know the total body of Christ is the church - all believers everywhere. I'm assuming you believe that as well, but it shows the institutional issue that many, both lay and paid staff leaders, view the local group meeting as the church as an individual group, not a part of the larger body.
Also, many people I know, myself included, wouldn't use the 2000 BFM as a resource for anything, unless we were wanting to be sure we did the opposite of what was documented there. I know you claim it includes supporting scripture, but the BFM is not the Bible, and not everyone agrees that what it says accurately reflects and is supported by scripture.
Now, if you think not publishing staff expense is appropriate, that's certainly an opinion that many share. However, that doesn't make it true for all. I can see both sides, but think, especially in the mega churches, witholding salary information is strictly a power play by the pastor and causes far more harm than good.
You gave a link to a group's interpretation of scripture. The document has been edited and changed numerous times since the convention's inception.
ReplyDeleteScripture is very clear about avoiding the appearance of sin.
If the church appears to be deliberately misappropriating funds or using funds in a manner that would suggest questionable activities, i.e. questionable compensation packages, then that church has issues that need to be dealt with soon.
The BFM is not scripture but I can tell already that you are in the camp that wants to make this document trump sound biblical principles.
You tell me the downside to a church being transparent with their finances.
Tell me why a pastor could gain access to any one of his member's salaries either through public information or a FOIA request yet we're supposed to be kept in the dark about their compensation.
Tell me why we can't see how the church is using its resources while its membership is suffering.
You tell me why a church can't operate out in the open so that not only is there no question about its financial dealings, but that the churches are at the vanguard of economic integrity instead of being the next wave of organizations going bankrupt?
There are an increasing number of churches mired in fiscal ruin because they operated beyond their means which accountability and transparency would have prevented.
"A place of worship in the name of the savior Jesus is not acrophobia. These preachers as well as the leaders in charge are not following the behavior of Jesus, instead they behavior exhibits anxiety in the public and private arena. Not a good follower of Christ. Jesus was not a private savior; at least an animal will look a person in the eye while the practitioner is unable to leave their safe haven of the bank account, LORD please help the children of god."
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that transparency is bad or wrong. I am saying it is not required if the body chooses to structure themselves in such a way. None of us have to be a member of a church which is not transparent, some may like it.
"You keep referring to the church like it's a location, when we all know the total body of Christ is the church - all believers everywhere. I'm assuming you believe that as well, but it shows the institutional issue that many, both lay and paid staff leaders, view the local group meeting as the church as an individual group, not a part of the larger body. "
I have used the term "church body" a 4-6 times in reference to the people of the local congregation. I think I am very clear on this church body not being a building.
I do believe in the Universal church being all mankind which are saved are a part of. I also believe in the local church body of believers who choose for themselves how they will operate.
Those in the universal church which are not part of the local church where I serve are not able to walk in and demand seeing the books because they are saved.
If wrong seems to be happening, address it in your church. Do it with a name and face, not from behind the veil of anonymity. Don't come tell the church you are not a part of locally how to be or do church.
If you don't like the BF&M 2K, that's OK. It is used to define important truths we need to address in our day on our watch. There are times it needs to updated and more clearly spelled out.
I agree it is an interpretation but it the voted upon baptist interpretation. I'm OK with that. Autonomy is great.
Our Pastor has passion!
ReplyDeleteOur Pastor has power!
Our Pastor has God's anointing on His life!
Our Pastor is God's man for God's Church to preach God's word behind the sacred desk.
I love HIM!!!
"I love HIM!!!"
ReplyDeleteDoes his wife know?
"I'm not saying that transparency is bad or wrong. I am saying it is not required if the body chooses to structure themselves in such a way. None of us have to be a member of a church which is not transparent, some may like it."
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying that being accountable is bad or wrong. I am saying it is not required if the body (meaning the yes men that the pastor hand picks) chooses to structure themselves in such a way. None of us have to be a member of a church which is not accountable, some may like it.
Accountability is over-rated.
"Our Pastor has passion!
ReplyDeleteOur Pastor has power!
Our Pastor has God's anointing on His life!
Our Pastor is God's man for God's Church to preach God's word behind the sacred desk.
I love HIM!!!"
Thank you for your comment. It blessed me.
"I'm not saying that being accountable is bad or wrong. I am saying it is not required if the body (meaning the yes men that the pastor hand picks) chooses to structure themselves in such a way. None of us have to be a member of a church which is not accountable, some may like it."
ReplyDeleteWhich "yes men"did Mac choose to structure the church? I think the structure for no disclosing salaries was there pre Brunson.
"I agree it is an interpretation but it the voted upon baptist interpretation. I'm OK with that. Autonomy is great."
ReplyDeleteSo many mistakes in so few words.
Voting upon an interpretation (even by Bapstists) does not make it true. Unless you support slavery (as Baptists have in the past). It doesn't matter if you are OK with it. You are not the final court of arbitration. That would be the Bible. Autonomy is not great when it is abused.
"Which "yes men"did Mac choose to structure the church? I think the structure for no disclosing salaries was there pre Brunson."
ReplyDeleteI could tell you but then I would have to kill you.
Doesn't matter when it was instituted. We follow the Bible - not men. Non-acountability is non-biblical.
"Thank you for your comment. It blessed me."
ReplyDeleteThat's because you are a man worshipper.
"If wrong seems to be happening, address it in your church. Do it with a name and face, not from behind the veil of anonymity. Don't come tell the church you are not a part of locally how to be or do church."
ReplyDeleteYeah, WD tried that. He ended up getting served with tresspass warrents. Give them your name and the Baptist maffia comes after you.
"Those in the universal church which are not part of the local church where I serve are not able to walk in and demand seeing the books because they are saved."
ReplyDeleteThat is perhaps the stupidest analogy I have ever read.
Universal members have never contributed to your church so they aren't entitled to see how you are spending their money. Your members are. Shouldn't a church be held to at least the same standards as other charities?
"I support your right to hold that position but I don't see biblical support for your position."
ReplyDeleteJon doesn't see biblical support for financial accountability, but he does see biblical support for:
1) not criticizing a pastor
2) a 10% mandatory OT tithe
3) eating until you pop
"I don't believe the church has to answer all questions asked."
ReplyDeleteJon gave me this same evasive answer when I was asking him questions he couldn't answer about the tithe.
Then he tried using a proof text about asking silly questions.
Then he completely reversed his life-long position on the following Monday and tried to pretend it didn't have anything to do with our 3 day conversation.
don't believe the church has to answer all questions asked. The church does not owe those not part of the church an explanation as to why they make the choices they make. If they want too, great. If they don't, great. When a request comes in anonymous, no one is sure if this is a member or not. I would dismiss it."
ReplyDelete"The church"?
Whom would that be? Most pew sitters in mega's have no clue what is going on. Considering what they see on stage, they should be asking serious questions.
Most pew sitters still don't know. who would have known what he did to Tom if not for this blog? Most do not even know about Maurilo but pay for him.
Jon, You missed your calling. You should have been doing spin for the Clinton's
ReplyDeleteAutonomy is not great when it is abused.
ReplyDeleteJune 2, 2011 5:39 PM
Like protecting sexual predators in ministry. Autonomy is the excuse
"Yeah, WD tried that."
ReplyDeleteReally? Then why an investigation? I do not support the investigation but neither do I support the long time spent demanding (maybe a word to strong) answers anonymously.
""The church"?
Whom would that be? Most pew sitters in mega's have no clue what is going on. Considering what they see on stage, they should be asking serious questions."
Why put down active church members who want to do church differently than you?
"Like protecting sexual predators in ministry. Autonomy is the excuse"
ReplyDeleteI would support a voluntary data base being set up for abuse cases. autonomy would not be misused as a result.
Anything can be misused and given excuse for, even blogs and the freedom to print what one wants. that doesn't mean we throw it out.
Anything can be misused and given excuse for, even blogs and the freedom to print what one wants. that doesn't mean we throw it out.
ReplyDeleteJune 2, 2011 7:36 PM
Like the freedom you are given to comment here without being censored. Wish all pastors were like Tom.
"Really? Then why an investigation? I do not support the investigation but neither do I support the long time spent demanding (maybe a word to strong) answers anonymously."
ReplyDeleteTom was blogging about what he saw that was very public.
Funny how it is NEVER the facts and the issue but always about "WHO" is saying it. as if that makes a difference.
Ad hominem is all you guys know.
Why put down active church members who want to do church differently than you?
ReplyDeleteJune 2, 2011 7:30 PM
Once again, you change the subject and make it ad hominem.
I think it is my duty to tell the pew sitters to STOP being pew sitters and become the "Living Body of Christ" and stop following men. Like you
Just like you thought it was your duty to tell people to "tithe" for years. :o)
ReplyDeleteI so not profit from my duty. In fact, I get no power because I want the Holy Spirit to have powr in people's lives. Not the pastor.
This is going around in the Southern Baptist Brotherhood,
ReplyDeleteabout 15 to 20 minutes in, Steve Gaines compares character assassin's (bloggers)
as being like Osama Bin Lauden, Those Evil People
"You and I can trust the Lord to take care of our enemies"
Jon Estes' posts bore me to death. I really wish you would stop posting so much, Jon. You are not adding anything to the discussion.
ReplyDeleteSadly postmodernism has invaded many pulpits in America and tithe teachers don't get it at all. If they were truly fundamental dispensationalists they wouldn't be led into this false doctrine of tithing. Tithing is so tied into the OT Temple that it has BEEN FULFILLED through Christ. Tithing is mixing and blurring of covenants and a wandering of the faith. The day of Pentecost is next week what happened after Pentecost is amazing in how people looked out for each others and their needs.
ReplyDeleteJon L. Estes said...
ReplyDeleteI'll bow out for a few days or so and let you cool down. When I return I will work to deal with the subject matter and not join in any personal bantering. Whether I agree or disagree with where people stand on the subject. I do hope that will help you not let me be the focus of your day.
June 1, 2011 11:18 AM
Jon L. Estes said...
"I watched the video and I sense Pastor Mac's heart and passion for our great Church.
He wants to protect the church...
He wants peace in the church.....
He wants purpose in the church...
He wants to purge the church.....
All of that is BIBLE!!!
Beware..Jesus said...when all men speak well of you...
Pastor Mac speaks the truth and sometimes it hurts us.
I am thankful for a Pastor that gives me what I need NOT what I want.
I want love and acceptance and mercy...
I need discipline, truth, and holiness.
So do YOU...."
Good comment. You are an upstanding who is not a kool-aid drinker or man follower. You think clearly and express yourself correctly. Thanks.
June 2, 2011 11:15 AM
Three minutes shy of 24 hours... hardly "a few days or so."
The fact that you would take anything the one-sentence-per-paragraph, multiple-exclamation-points, caps-lock, alliterative troll says seriously is scary. Very, very scary. In fact, this whole new saccharine JLE is almost Stepford-like.
I actually liked the video and did not pick up on Mac being angry.
ReplyDeleteTry watching it with the sound turned off.
0.5 million a year for team Brunson? I thought Brunson said he didn't earn anywhere near 300k per year.
ReplyDeleteWell, $500K isn't anywhere near $300K, is it?
Did he ever explain what you are supposed to "do with him" before you ignore him?
ReplyDeleteHave your security-deacon-discipline-committee, JSO-detective member illegally obtain subpoenas to root out his identity, trespass him (and his wife just for good measure), refuse to meet with him, pass a deacons' resolution condemning him and anyone else who dares ask questions, have one of the head goons read it aloud during a church service, pressure the sheeple to affirm it, post it prominently on the front page of the church website, and call him a psychopath on the front page of the newspaper. Doesn't that about cover it, WD?
Does anyone know what policies were in place prior to Dr. Brunson arriving? Were the individual salaries shown?
ReplyDeleteYou're not a member of FBC Jax so you have no right to ask that.
;-)
If your point is "that's the way they always did it," that doesn't make it right today.
1 Samuel 8 is very applicable to some mega pastors today. They are not CEO's, they are kings. Kings answer to no one. They look down on their subjects and they scold them and point fingers at them like they are children. Kings have no one to keep them accountable. There is an amazing amount of temptation for mega's today. I hope that as churches grow larger that we see men with humility and self restraint rise up to lead them.
ReplyDeleteMany pastors can handle adversity, few can handle success.
Jon Estes' posts bore me to death. I really wish you would stop posting so much, Jon. You are not adding anything to the discussion.
ReplyDeleteJune 3, 2011 12:07 AM
But he sure is showing us the the true personality and thinking.... off the stage....... of these showmen.
He is doing many a service by commenting here. They get the seek the fake, deceptive, twisting side of most pastors.
And most are like that. AFter all, they have their stage persona.
Its sad to see what First Baptist use to be and what First Baptist is now. I personally think we need to tear down the lighthouse off garage 4 because First Baptist is no longer a lighthouse for downtown. Its sad that we have to wait for a guest preacher to come so we can actually hear good preaching instead of our weekly history lesson. All the hard work that Dr. Lindsay and others did to make First Baptist what it was has now been destroyed by one little man with one big ego.
ReplyDelete"Jon Estes' posts bore me to death. I really wish you would stop posting so much, Jon. You are not adding anything to the discussion."
ReplyDeleteDon't blame Jon. He can't control himself. He's obsessed.
"I'll bow out for a few days or so and let you cool down. When I return I will work to deal with the subject matter and not join in any personal bantering. Whether I agree or disagree with where people stand on the subject. I do hope that will help you not let me be the focus of your day."
ReplyDeleteIn the words of Jon L. Estes: This is a lie!
He was posting again in less than 24 hours.
"I do hope that will help you not let me be the focus of your day."
ReplyDeleteNow that's funny!
Written by a man who sometimes posts on this blog 30 times a day.
"Really? Then why an investigation? I do not support the investigation but neither do I support the long time spent demanding (maybe a word to strong) answers anonymously."
ReplyDeleteYou are obviously ignorant of the facts (even though they have been spelled out many times on this blog).
Again with the ad homenim attacks. Truth is what matters Jon. Not who is asking the questions. It matters not whether you support it or not.
"Why put down active church members who want to do church differently than you?"
ReplyDeleteBy active what you do mean - conscience but not asking questions - you know like touching mine anointed?
Differently = don't question the pastor. Self-serving.
"In the words of Jon L. Estes: This is a lie!"
ReplyDeleteI was referring to that comment line. That subject and blog post.
I find it funny that as often as Jon L. Estes post on W/D' s blog that he doesn't have it listed on his profile page as one of his favorite's. It really needs posted along with the others he's listed.
ReplyDeleteLoved the comment from New BBC "try watching it without the sound" . . .says a lot!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTypo Corrected
ReplyDeleteThe comment listed below saying I said something, is a lie. I did comment a word of thanks for these words. But to say I said these words is a lie.
"Jon L. Estes said...
"I watched the video and I sense Pastor Mac's heart and passion for our great Church.
He wants to protect the church...
He wants peace in the church.....
He wants purpose in the church...
He wants to purge the church.....
All of that is BIBLE!!!
Beware..Jesus said...when all men speak well of you...
Pastor Mac speaks the truth and sometimes it hurts us.
I am thankful for a Pastor that gives me what I need NOT what I want.
I want love and acceptance and mercy...
I need discipline, truth, and holiness.
So do YOU....""
June 3, 2011 11:10 AM
Readers....visit William Thorntons blog from the favorites on the main page and read his humorous bur dead-on accurate post about the 2011 SBC Annual Meeting.
ReplyDeleteYou going this year, Jon? You'll be quite famous if you do !!
"You going this year, Jon? You'll be quite famous if you do !!"
ReplyDeleteI have not been in two years and from the schedule this year, both for the pastors conference and business meeting, I don't have an interest.
I love the SBC but have come to a point in my life that the SBC is not the end all to God's call upon my life. Oh, I may be a SBCer for the rest of my days but if God calls elsewhere at any time (did that one to serve in Africa and am forever blessed as a result), I will follow without thought of missing the SBC.
"The comment listed below saying I said something, is a lie. I did comment a word of thanks for these words. But to say I said these words is a lie."
ReplyDeleteJon is highly intollerant of misstatements. That is unless they are uttered by a Baptist leader with a title. In that case, it's ok to lie up a storm for a decade and you are "toucing mine anointed" if you mention the truth.
"I was referring to that comment line. That subject and blog post."
ReplyDeleteParsing words again are we?
""I was referring to that comment line. That subject and blog post."
ReplyDeleteParsing words again are we?'
The comment you posted stated Jon L. Estes said...
Very confusing if one hasn't followed the thread stream
The comment you posted stated Jon L. Estes said...
ReplyDeleteVery confusing if one hasn't followed the thread stream
Nice try Jon.
That wasn't me.
Comment by someone:
ReplyDelete""I was referring to that comment line. That subject and blog post."
Parsing words again are we?'"
____
My response:
"The comment you posted stated Jon L. Estes said...
Very confusing if one hasn't followed the thread stream"
____
Never said it was you but it was to the one I quoted. I did respond directly to the quote I copied and pasted.
Is there a reason you thought I was commenting to you? Did you post the quote I responded too? If not, then your comment makes no sense.
"Is there a reason you thought I was commenting to you? Did you post the quote I responded too? If not, then your comment makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteI never posted a comment using the phrase "Jon L. Estes said:"
That was New BBC Open Forum.
There is nothing wrong with purging the church. If you do then you better make sure you God seeking and not self seeking. The problem is that those who have to power to do it rarely do it with humilty. It becomes a pride issue.
ReplyDeletePastor Chris
JLE 11:44,
ReplyDeleteI copied and pasted your comment. I did not attribute the quote you quoted to you. Please go back and read what I wrote.
"Really? Then why an investigation? I do not support the investigation but neither do I support the long time spent demanding (maybe a word to strong) answers anonymously."
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting is that in this situation, Jon is being self serving by NOT being anonymous. He is making a name for himself with the SBC elite for defending the charlatans.
Perhaps it will work itself out in a better gig, Jon. Sorry about the headmaster job at the FBCJax school not working out. You know, the one you inquired about for a "friend" where you said you were a former headmaster of a school.
I doubt seriously that the mega-church pastors read this blog nor do they care who Jon is. They have much bigger fish to fry than a blog that is always chasing Mac Brunson.
ReplyDeleteThis must be going around in the Southern Baptist Land,
ReplyDeleteShort Clip
Whole sermon, about 15 to 20 minutes in, Steve Gaines compares character assassin's (bloggers)
as being like Osama Bin Lauden, Those Evil People
As he says "You and I can trust the Lord to take care of our enemies"
I doubt seriously that the mega-church pastors read this blog nor do they care who Jon is. They have much bigger fish to fry than a blog that is always chasing Mac Brunson.
ReplyDeleteJune 3, 2011 10:53 PM
You are right, they don't bother. They have staffers monitoring certain blogs and googling their names to see what is being said about them. I know many who do this.
But your blanket assertion defies logic: How did Mac know about FBCJaxwatchdog in the first place...even back when it was read by so few?
And we know for a fact that many of the leaders read Wade's blog.
Mac is the one that increased the readership of this blog. Ironic, huh?
I am new to FBC and to Jax and when I googled the church website, this blog came up on Google.
ReplyDeleteWOW!
I thought FBC was a great church?
I thought Pastor Mac was a really good speaker?
I thought the church was unified?
Then I thought...why would someone go to the expense/trouble of putting together a Blog like this?
It must be Bitterness?
It must be Revenge?
It must be Anger?
I looked thru some of the articles on this Blog and they all have one thing in common:
PAIN!
I feel so sorry for the individual that is writing this Blog...You must really be hurting.
Honestly, therapy will be very helpful and healing for you.
Forgiving Pastor Mac for any transgressions would be positive for your life.
Be at Peace my Brother....it is very easy to see you are really in some emotional pain!
You're not off to a good start as a member of FBC Jax, friend.
ReplyDeleteYour pastor has told you not to be reading this information, and you've already disobeyed him.
So be at peace, don't read the blog, and may you endure the regular tongue lashings you get from the pulpit.
And yes, there is PAIN, in caps as you wrote, but it really is pain for the people of FBC Jax and other churches where they have to endure bully pastors. I write this blog so you can see that your church is not the only one, that false doctrines and money-grubbing sermons are on the rise all over modern Christianity.
ReplyDeleteSo my pain is for you, friend. May you find peace at FBC Jax.
The reason a lot of people who come to this site and then read the comments but don't understand what all the fuss is about is because they weren't members at First Baptist under Dr. Lindsay, so they think that being preached to by an angry preacher, being scolded when we don't say amen when Mac thinks there ought to be an amen and the preacher using whats left of the pulpit as a bully pulpit is what we as members of First Baptist are use to. I wish there was a website I could direct you to that showed Dr. Lindsay preaching to show you what we had and then compare it to what we have now, kinda like comparing a Ronald Reagan to a Barack Obama. We had one Pastor that loved the church and now we have a Preacher that uses the church. Anonymous June 4th 1:03PM is right about one thing. Mac Brunson is a good speaker but not a very good preacher, otherwise people would be flocking in to hear him preach.
ReplyDeleteAnon. June 4, 2:33 p.m.
ReplyDeleteAmen, Amen and AMEN!!!
A bunch of new visitors are loving our Church!
ReplyDeleteThey love that our Pastor preaches with passion!
They love that there are plenty of places to serve!
They love that our Music is amazing!
They love that our Church is a leader in the Southern Baptist Convention and our Pastor preaches all over the nation!
He is a true servant of God and is in great demand to represent our Church around the world.
Hey Guest...keep coming! Stop reading this garbage and start reading your Bible!
Why is Pastor brunson so angry?
ReplyDeleteAnon June 4. 2:33
ReplyDeleteWow!! Well stated. You nailed the difference between a loving Shepherd and a hireling. I believe your comment is representative of many at FBC. Appreciate your comment!
Anonymous 9:08 pm, If what you say is true, then why have so many members left the church and why is giving down and why are parking garages 3 and 4 like a ghost town on a Sunday morning when they use to be packed with cars and why has attendance dropped dramatically at the Pastors Conference and why....
ReplyDeleteanonymous 9:08. I don't have a clue as to why Mac Brunson is angry alot and takes it out on us. There has been one thing that Mac Brunson said from the pulpit one Sunday a few months after he became the Preacher that has puzzled me as to why he would even make such a statement. He said and I quote "you like me now but lets see how you feel about me a year from now". Now why would a Preacher say something like that unless he has had a problem at his other churches with people not liking him.
ReplyDeleteWhy go to a church that gives you a scolding every Sunday? Unless you feel it's proper for an adult to scold another adult?
ReplyDeleteSharon, a lot of people are hoping that Mac Brunson will move on one day soon, others have been there for a long time and don't want to go to another church because its the only church they know while others have friends they sit with and don't want to leave them while others enjoy their Sunday School classes. Unfortunatly many gave up and have moved on to other churches.
ReplyDeleteSharon, a lot of people are hoping that Mac Brunson will move on one day soon, others have been there for a long time and don't want to go to another church because its the only church they know while others have friends they sit with and don't want to leave them while others enjoy their Sunday School classes. Unfortunatly many gave up and have moved on to other churches.
ReplyDeleteJune 4, 2011 10:56 PM
So see Sharon? Comfort is more important than truth. Nevermind that their attendance lends indirect support to the charlatan.
"Honestly, therapy will be very helpful and healing for you."
ReplyDeleteNo doubt you would recommend Nouthetic counseling. It is all the rage with the charlatans.
So see Sharon? Comfort is more important than truth. Never mind that their attendance lends indirect support to the charlatan.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is one day you will wake up in hell and seek comfort led astray by a criminal sheep in white cloth who confuses truth.
"What is interesting is that in this situation, Jon is being self serving by NOT being anonymous. He is making a name for himself with the SBC elite for defending the charlatans."
ReplyDeleteWith friends like Jon who needs enemies? I would think it would make those in the SBC uncomfortable, being defended with such scripture twisting and word parsing.
And then for a pastor (who gives his name for the world to see) who is corrected (and finally admits he is wrong - by lay people) on important biblical matters - time and time again.
Wouldn't that be embarrasing to them?
The truth is one day you will wake up in hell and seek comfort led astray by a criminal sheep in white cloth who confuses truth.
ReplyDeleteJune 5, 2011 1:17 PM
huh? Could you try to make sense. Are you trying to say that following the charlatans guarantees you a place in heaven?
huh? Could you try to make sense. Are you trying to say that following the charlatans guarantees you a place in heaven?
ReplyDeleteSorry, never made much use out of school, need to get my GED.
I like being a “nut” because as Dr. Rogers used to say:
ReplyDeleteWhen you’re feeling down
And a little blue
Just look at an oak tree
And see what a nut can do.
"’you like me now but let’s see how you feel about me a year from now’. Now why would a Preacher say something like that unless he has had a problem at his other churches with people not liking him?”
ReplyDeleteIt’s one of the tactics drawn from the purpose driven movement. It’s a polarizing statement meant to galvanize support around him. He places himself at the center of the controversy to pull his supporters to him while pushing others away. He sounds authoritative which is interpreted as also being scriptural and Godly. His supporters will say, “He’s a real man of God who speaks the truth” but they ignore the divisiveness he causes. And so it goes. Those who remain are told “true people of God” and those that left are trouble makers and ungodly. “Taking out the trash” is another term that has been used. It’s an us against them mentality.
The only thing I can say is if you serve on a Pastor Search Committee please, please; please; never call a man like this to your church. Leave him where he is and don’t bring division to your body of believers.
Anyone who listens to this garbage and others like him are the real "Nuts"
ReplyDeleteGlad I do not listen to this Baptist bunch.
wow
Once again, I am amazed at how men with PhD's and ThD's, misinterpret (or willfully misrepresent) the intended meaning of scripture when they should know better.
ReplyDeleteThe Greek word in Titus 3:10 for factious is hairetikos, which definitions include the following:
1) fitted or able to take or choose a thing; 2) schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine; 3) heretic
Now the previous verse reads, "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."
So it is clear that "factious" was intended to refer to a contentious FALSE TEACHER who creates strife with his DOCTRINE. This verse was NEVER meant to be applied generally to any person who stirs up controversy or disagrees with the pastor.
Ironic how Mac Bruson doesn't even realize he's actually talking about himself.
NYTN - best post of the thread. Using (misusing) scripture to beat up the sheep and to put the "fear of God" in 'em and keep 'em in line. That is the name of the game at FBC Jax these days.
ReplyDeleteAnon June 4 2:33pm...
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely the truth.. Dr. Lyndsay was a great preacher and pastor of FBCJAX.. The reason? He shared Jesus, he lived Jesus and he preached Jesus.. Yes Dr. Lyndsay got mad from the pulpit but it was out of love for the flock.. and because we knew he loved us and we respected him for his chastizement.
If you find that website for Dr. Lyndsay's sermons.. let us know!
Peace!
By the way, if those at FBCJAX would stop drinking the coolaid look around, there are some great, Jesus loving churches in Jax... were you can be loved, hear great preaching and once again enjoy going to church!
I am the June 4 2:33PM anon. blogger and I have found 1 video on youtube with Dr. Lindsay in it that has been posted by a person using the name videosofblessings and its titled "You've got to be born again-FBC Jacksonville Fl". Its 8:18 long but Dr. Lindsay is speaking for about 5 minutes of the video. This person is the same one that Watchdog posted a few months ago that showed Chip Dorton singing. Also if your interested, on the right side of the video where it shows suggestions, there is a video of W.A. Criswells last sermon he preached during the 1998 Pastors Conference where it was standing room only. That is what we at First Baptist were blessed with for so many years.
ReplyDeleteI'm reading an entirely different take on all of this. I'm seeing a preacher who is prepping people for all the martial law maneuvers coming out. The FBI today announced it has the authority to conduct investigations during church services. Look up FEMA churches if you want some more in-depth information on this. Does this finger-pointer talk on Romans 13 a lot? That's another clue. Some -- thankfully and hopefully not all -- are working hand in hand with the government. We are living in a time when outspoken "nuts" are not just seen as divisive. They're seen as potential terrorists. It's a real mess.
ReplyDelete