"...'holding to a form of godliness though they deny the power.' That's legalism. And I want to tell you something, down in Jacksonville I'm in a hotbed of legalism. Everybody's got a list of rules, but they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ."
Mac Brunson, April 7, 2008
Are you reading that FBC Jacksonville? Everybody's got a list of rules, but they seem to have no real relationship with Jesus Christ. That's you FBC Jax member. You have a list. And you have no REAL relationship with Jesus Christ.
That is what Mac Brunson believes about his congregation. And to make matters worse, he doesn't have a problem telling a group of pastors behind our backs when he is out of town and doesn't think anyone is listening.
Be a man, Mac. Don't creep around churches in the SBC telling people that we're legalistic, that you've been attacked by recalcitrants since you arrived. TELL US TO OUR FACES. My guess is you can't, because you're afraid you'll tick too many of us off and we might not keep giving you money.
But FBC Jax, doesn't this help you understand his terrible behavior in the pulpit, and condescending attitude toward us? When you hear him tell a group of pastors in his old stomping grounds in North Carolina that we're legalist and have a list of rules and no real relationship with Jesus Christ - does that not explain why he puts us down as not reading our bibles, that we should humor him at least by flipping through the hymnal, that we're worshipping the past, that he can't find but 50 men just 6 years after Homer died, etc.? Things are becoming clearer.
And doesn't this help explain the housecleaning at our church? If he showed up and found a "hotbed" of legalism, then he needs to clean-out those hard-headed, Pharisaic ministers like Bobby Barton, Doug Pigg, and Lewis Howard. And that fuddy-duddy Rodney Brooks who thinks his music is God's music, he has to go. And he knows his own family can't be legalistic, so definitely bring them and put them on staff to do what these other legalists have done - so legalistically - all these years.
And to make it even more sickening: the one area that one could argue that we HAVE been legalistic about all these years - the tithe - Mac DOES hold on to that legalistic teaching, even having the gall to reach back and play excerpts from that legalist Homer Lindsay, Jr. to remind us that we need to tithe if we're going to see God's blessings.
Slowly but surely, Mac, we're starting to figure you out.
93 comments:
Hey WD...
I can't believe you just said this...
"Be a man, Mac. Don't creep around churches in the SBC telling people that we're legalistic, that you've been attacked by recalcitrants since you arrived. TELL US TO OUR FACES."
Wow is this the pot calling the kettle black! You are doing the very same thing here that you are accusing Mac of.
Like you stated...why don't you TELL MAC TO HIS FACE!?
In two short years:
From
The Miracle of Downtown Jacksonville
to
The Hotbed of Legalism in the SBC
Way to go Mac, you really uncovered the deep, dark truth about First Jax.
anon April 14, at 5:42 p.m. - please explain how a blogger is doing the "very same thing" as a mega-church pastor preaching to other pastors about his own congregation? Is the WD a pastor criticizing his flock? I don't get the comparison. Let me spell it out for you: A pastor should be open and honest and transparent with his congregation that pays his salary. He should not criticize them when he travels to other churches or conferences. A blogger has no congregation, and is not a preacher or leader of people that pay his salary. So, I just don't get it.
Not that you will care, but I have pretty much lost all respect for you after this latest entry. There you are putting words and attributing thoughts to your pastor that you don't know to be accurate. Your problem is you don't like the pastor, and you never will. I really hope the day comes that he finds out somehow who you are so they DO throw you out. I actually thought some of what you blog about was interesting and worth discussion, but not any longer.
You continue to bring up Vines and Lindsay? Why? Anytime people bring valid points of discussion about problems UNRELATED TO THE PASTOR in your church you always hearken back to the days of old, defend them, and sarcastically show your true colors. For someone who claims he doesn't worship the past, it's as if someone attacks your God when they bring it up.
No one has said FBC Jax was full of hateful and spiteful pagans. I didn't say that in the comment section of the last blog entry you decided not to address any longer. Mac Brunson didn't say it. NO ONE has said it. But you have decided we have. You have decided to start another blog entry of pretty much all opinion and conjecture in hopes of muddying the water of the valid discussions some of us were having in the comment section of the last blog. Answers you don't have, points you can't defend, so instead of just saying something to the effect of "I am sorry this church doesn't fit with what you are looking for, I hope you find another because this is how we do things here," you take to being arrogant, sarcastic, and belittling the comments I wrote without really offering anything substantive to argue.
I now see that. Some of what you have said is valid, but nonsense you have spewed in the last 2 or 3 blogs and comments section proves to me that anything other than "Mac Brunson and his people are the only problem" are treated with the same sort of haughty, arrogant attitude that...well...that caused me to leave your church. Your blog and your responses are the exact sort of attitude I have been talking about. Agree with Watchdog? You are fine. Disagree with Watchdog and bring up VALID points as to why you don't? You are spoken down to, treated with arrogance, and endure sarcastic remarks.
Anyway, this is my last comment here. I will not be back to this blog. I will check back to see if this comment is actually posted, I am sure it will be followed by a bunch of arrogant remarks by Watchdog telling me a thing or two about how wrong I am, Mac Brunson is to blame, he doesn't worship the past, and how I need to get a life or whatever. If anyone cares to contact me, my email address is pzimm7700@comcast.net
After I see the comment is posted, if it is posted. I will not waste anymore time in my life coming to this blog.
Paul - Your comment is posted. Sorry you feel so offended and put off. You are welcome here anytime. I certainly have no interest in belittling your comments - I am trying to discuss the issues with you and pointing out where I disagree with you.
We have a pastor, Paul, who went out of town and talked us down to other pastors. Read the quote again. He was talking about our church. That offends me, and it might offend you to if you were a member of this church for 20 years and he comes in here and now is spreading the word around that our church is now a "hotbed of legalism". I'll never let him live those words down unless he apologizes for them or clarifies them.
I mention Vines and Lindsay because they are relevant to the discussions.
As I said, you are welcome here to post if you like.
Look for me in the HD services on TV...I'm in the bright red clear empty seat.
Voice of Reason says:
WD - please let me post the link to a good article since tithing was brought up in the last blog topic regarding legalism. It is called HOW MUCH DO YOU REALLY KNOW ABOUT TITHING:
http://tithing.christian-things.com/howmuch.html
After reading it, I was convicted by the Spirit that I, like those priests in Malachi, was robbing God BY GIVING A TITHE TO THE MEGA CHURCH. Why? Because I ignored the real human needs of so many around me, both saved and unsaved, and gave my money to the FBC Jax instead of meeting those people's real needs. Why did I do that, and give "God's money" to a mega church for parking garages and buildings and big salaries? Because I was prideful and my giving the tithe made me feel more spiritual then others. I felt smug and content that I was being "faithful" to give my money to the church. I liked the A/C and fancy buildings, I liked my preacher to live the life of luxury, and I liked the prestige I felt to be accepted by the other civic leaders in the church. I have repented and will never give another dime to FBC Jax as long as I see such wasteful spending and lack of accountability by the current leadership. I don't want to have to give an explanation to Jesus some day as to why I was giving thousands of dollars every year to build a lighthouse on a parking garage, or buying flat screen TV's and fish aquariums and kids slides when so many of his missionaries and the poor and the hungry needed "his" money for real needs.
I encourage others to study and find out the TRUTH ABOUT TITHING and then lovingly ask Mac Brunson to explain your questions. Good luck.
Paul - thanks for your email address. Why would I, or anyone else here, want to contact you by the way?
Voice of Reason - an excerpt from the Article linked earlier:
"Reasoning that is not found in the Bible is used to justify Christians embracing a LEGALISTIC practice from the Old Testament. In more than 4000 years of recorded Biblical history, there is not a single recorded example of tithing that is similar to what the Church practices today. WE RECOMMEND THAT EVERY CHRISTIAN RENOUNCE THIS UNSCRIPTURAL PRACTICE AND REJECT ANY LINGERING FEAR, GUILT OR CONDEMNATION!God’s children have no debt to their Father to pay other than thanksgiving and praise. Their elder brother, the Lord Jesus Christ, has paid in full the debt. Christ will build His Church but only with the truth. He needs no help from a FALSE DOCTRINE that puts the Children of God under bondage and the curse of the Law.
Mac has a problem following in the footsteps of other pastors. Thats why he is always finding fault with the church. He wants to make his own footprint. He wants you to follow him and forget your former pastors. Could be why part of the former staff are no longer here. They would be comparing him to Lindsay and Vines. I had a clue to this desire for independence when they arrived here. They demanded we give them new fancy offices of which an inordinate amount of money was spent. Neither Dr Lindsay's nor Dr Vines' offices were good enough. They even wanted theirs in another building. We tore up a perfectly good building for offices that wern't needed. Dr Lindsay would never have allowed this waste of money. Its a shame that all of this has happened to FBC.
Thanks, Paul. Again, you have hit the nail on the head. I hope to get in contact with you soon.
WD, he was right. You really went too far on this last post.
Staff members working, prior to Pastor Brunson, have openly discussed this problem to me.
This is not Pastor Brunson's problem, it is our church's problem.
But you would have to be willing to discuss this point. I don't think you are considering your most recent post of yours.
Thanks Rick W (does that stand for "weasel" as you called me, since you didn't give your full name? Don't call me a weasel if you yourself don't give me your name either) for letting us know about how bad of a pastor Jerry Vines was, and how we needed Team Brunson to come straighten us out.
Its all becoming so clear.
Here is the Rick W post to me from the previous thread...am pasting it here since I know some of you only check into the top thread
--------------------
Rick W Said:
Watchdog, I see you have been a member of FB for 20 years? Wow... 20 years. I have been a member for 52 years and personally like the fact that Mac Brunson has brought us into the 21st century. While I respected Drs. Lindsay, Sr. & Jr. I found that Dr. J had NO CLUE how to pastor or administer a church and our services became a "show" between he and Rodney Brooks. He only wanted "puppets" who would bow to him - such an insecure man... Mac in bringing well educated, free thinking staff and actually letting Jacksonville know that we are part of them and not apart from them has done wonders for the Lord in letting Jacksonvile know we care about them.
I read your comments with interest and then have pity for you. Such a lowlife that you will not come public with YOUR warped perception of what is going on (so you think.)
Perhaps you should go to another smaller church where you could use your expertise with them. I will pray for you, pray that you may see the light to leave. FB has been around a long time - it will contiunue to be here regardless of what your finite mind and mouth think.
Thank you Lord for the Brunson's and the wonderful, God-blessed staff he has assembled at FB. For once we have a man who allows us to be the church that truly cares for a city. Thank you Drs. Lindsay Sr. & Jr. for your leadership - even you men were forward thinking for your time. As far as Dr. Vines, who not only was killing FB, his record of chruch growth was pitiful in the churches he "pastored" - before he came to FB. It was all about him and when the people caught on they left as well.
You go Dr. Brunson... bring it on, don't let this weasel who can't idenity himself bother our church anymore. JESUS LIVES AT FBC!
I don't know why I continue to be shocked at the things this man does, but I am. After we have already heard how the church overspent on missions(although he then claimed we didn't give what we pledged) from a sermon online, and then we hear how poor Mac never had a honeymoon period from Paige Patterson and that was linked online, he goes out and talks about us behind our backs again. Mac must absolutely think we are stupid.
Paul, you keep saying that bringing up Vines and Lyndsey is irrelevant. I would respectfully disagree. We are not comparing Mac's preaching to Vines and Lyndsey in an unfair way, we are comparing his actions. I want to make a list for people like Robert and Paul and other Kool-Aid drinkers of the things Mac Brunson has done in the last two years, and I challenge anyone of you to repost my list with an x marked next to the things that you believe either Homer Lyndsey Jr. or Jerry Vines would have done. My bet is none of you will take me up on that. Here is your list...
_Accept a 300,000 land gift shortly after arriving in Jacksonville.
_Put their wives on the payroll of the church making a six figure salary with no outlined ministry responsibilities
_Have their wife strut around Jacksonville in her Jaguar
_Build a million dollar house in an elite gated community
_Throw an engagement party for their son and his fiance right after their arrival and expect the church to lavish them with gifts
_Use the Lord's money to remodel part of the children's building to make an executive suite for the Pastor and his wife(and the pastor's dog who comes to work with them)
_Whine to other pastors in the SBC that they never received a honeymoon period, and were attacked by recalcitrants in the church from day 1(after receiving all of the things mentioned above)
_Get in the pulpit and request that the church please not treat our visitors like we treat each other
_Continually verbally abusing the congregation from the pulpit
_Start a school without having the money to fund it, or doing a study to see if there is even a market for a school
_Commit to another local church that we would help them rebuild and not follow through on the promises
_Commit to the city of Jacksonville that they would serve on a committee to help reduce crime and then show up 29% of the time(the lowest percentage of anyone on that committee)
_Host a time to stand with Israel that does not in any way achieve the church's mission of reaching Jacksonville for Jesus Christ, and also sends money to a hospital that performs abortions
_Go out of town and preach to another church and tell them that our church is short of budget because the church "overspent on missions", and then return home and tell your church something contradictory by saying that we are short on budget because the amount pledged was not given
_Host a special media love offering with the purpose of promoting themselves nationally...and then after promoting the offering failing to let us know how much money was raised
_Ram by-law changes through the church without allowing the members to even know what they are voting on
_Create a church discipline committee to ensure that everyone in the church is a yes-man and remove those that are not
_Remove countless staff members that lovingly served the church for years and replace them with their own yes-men
_Leave the high school department, an absolutely crucial part of our church ministry, without a youth pastor for over a year(because they had run the other one out the door)
_Tell the church that door to door ministry is dead because "noone is ever home"
_Tell the church they are worshipping the past
_Spend an unknown amount of church dollar's on hiring a media advertising group-the A-Group-to come up with advertising gimmicks
_Tell another church that Jacksonville is a hotbed of legalism where everyone has a list of rules but noone has a real relationship with Jesus Christ
I'm sure I am forgetting something because there have been so many abuses by this Pastor in the two years since his arrival that you will have to forgive me for not being able to remember them all. Anyway, Robert, Paul, and other Kool-Aid drinkers...there is your list, and your assignment is to repost that list with an x mark next to anything on that list that you believe Homer Lyndsey Jr. or Jerry Vines would have ever done, and please elaborate on why you feel they would have done those things. I can't speak for Watchdog, but if you can convince me that Vines or Lyndsey would have done even half of the things on that list, I personally will never mention their names again.
A hotbed of legalism? Yes, if we are against an overboarding of contemporary music, yes if we don't like our men wearing aprons, yes if we don't like outside influences such as Sunday School material from another denomination, yes if we don't like the marketing ideas, yes if we don't like NEPOTISM, yes if we don't like wasted money,yes if we don't like the preacher blasting us at another church after we have done every conceivable thing to welcome him. This is a partial reiteration of my LIST.
Thanks, Rick. It's hard for Watchdog to listen to any of this. He'd have to admit, first, that our church was imperfect. He'd like to blame Pastor Brunson for every problem that exists today.
You'd think, as sinners saved by grace, that this would not be such an impossibly difficult topic to discuss!
Wow Ghost - couldn't have said it better myself.
Let me remind the Brunson defenders here:
This blog was never set up to discuss the changes that Mac Brunson wanted to make at our church in terms of worship styles, or general directions of the church. I have said over and over again that I don't have a problem with taking a direction toward even more contemporary services. I don't believe Mac to be a "purpose driven" pastor...I believe he does want to reach this generation using new innovative approaches. I suppose one exception to that is how critical I was for the Time to Stand with Israel - I was against that for what I think are very solid reasons - not that the event itself was "bad" or "wrong", its just that hosting the event could have served to confuse people in Jax with what our message of the exclusivity of Jesus for salvation is all about.
What I have been pointing our are ABUSES by this pastor of the congregation, most of which Ghost has listed quite nicely.
But now its quite shocking to hear that Mac believes OUR PROBLEM is legalism, and that its his mission to now fix it. I don't say we don't have problems in our church that needed correcting when he came. You people are as one poster said recently thinking in terms of black and white, or all bad or all good. I in no way am saying we had no problems when Mac arrived...but to characterize our church TO OTHER PASTORS as "hotbed of legalism" is to...well, to use a worn-out phrase from my Brunson defender friends - its SLANDER of our church. We are not a hotbed of legalism. If you believe that, you have never been in a legalistis church. Are there problems in our church? Of course. Are there some saints stuck in the past. Of course, but that's not the worse thing. Are there cliques in our church that cause some to feel excluded? Sure. Are there self-righteous people that make others who miss a Sunday feel guilty and less godly? I think so. But that is not the heart and soul of the church, we are NOT LEGALIST.
And Mac, EVEN IF WE WERE LEGALISTIC, please don't go and talk about it to other pastors behind our backs. I don't know what possible motive you could have had in uttering those words, but they are disgraceful and you either owe us an apology, or owe us an explanation as to why we are legalistic. If we are legalistic, please lovingly correct us. Please don't bash us from the pulpit, and definitely don't talk about us behind our backs to other preachers.
To those in the cliques: you are now getting a taste of your own medicine. You talk about other people behind their backs now you are getting talked about behind yours. Touche!!!
Ghost, that is just sad.
Over half of what I just read is pure misinformation. I would challenge you to adress a single issue with any of our staff.
You take what you think is the whole story and simply state your biased view as opinion. Then you ask us to tell you what our former pastors would do? Watchdog, you should at least be able to see this logic. There is none!
Why? They are not here! Stop treating them as if we have to compare a current pastor with a past one. That is EXACTLY living in the past. Further, it is passing judgment on one man in light of another. That is sin.
But go ahead and ask Homer Lindsay if a son could be hired by a church.
Geeze, you two.
Ghost!!I love it when you MATERALIZE...
Do you think one of the rich church members could have your list printed on billboards around town? Best explanation for the devastation at FBC yet. Thanks.
Thanks Watchdog for posting.
"Please don't bash us from the pulpit, and definitely don't talk about us behind our backs to other preachers."
This is beyond funny and sad.
You complain about him talking about your back?
People and Watchdog::
Stop saying please to this man, you have nothing to beg for. It was a good church years ago. Now its a mess. I left, I'm glad, I finally got over it and got out. I WON'T GO BACK. If I wanted to be beaten up by people I would get into politics.
My list of grievances with FBC is longer than Ghost listed. I would list them but no one cares. I'm dispensable and nobody to them.
Talk about cliques; you must be kidding. They are the nicest, kindest people around starting with the preacher. Sure they are! Once you have had the FBC treatment you won't ever walk into another church again.
Thanks Watchdog, Voice of Reason and Ghost, love you guys.
and definitely don't talk about us behind our backs to other preachers.
Would you recommend the pastors start a blog and point out the shortcomings of the disgruntled? Letting the whole of cyber space know how much certain members are disliked?
This concept could be interesting.
Get bashed preachers to start a blog slamming disgruntled members. Follow those folks around and report on everything they do which could be titillating to the inquiring minds.
Ghost, did you just say this?
"_Have their wife strut around Jacksonville in her Jaguar"
What kind of man would speak of another man's wife like this?
Nevermind.
You expect grown, intellegent human beings to answer your question?
Man, you really have taken this to the gutters.
Anon 10:46
Can you point out the ones that are "pure misinformation"? And then give an explanation maybe as to what the "mis" information is, and set the record straight?
A lot of similarities between Mac Brunson and Barak Obama. At every turn they seem to be knocking the very people they are seeking to lead.
Mac refers to his church as "hotbed of legalism"...he says EVERYBODY has a list (yes, he used the word everybody)...and no one (yes, he said NO ONE) has a real relationship with Jesus Christ.
Obama calls the plebe in Pennsylvania as "bitter" and "clinging to guns and religion".
They say Obama is showing his "elitism". I say Mac is showing his own spiritual elitism. Only he and his close followers and family members have the "real" relationship with Jesus Christ. The rest who seem to be upset with his leadership are "legalists" and have no "real relationship" with Jesus Christ.
The dems are beginning to realize Obama is not all he was cracked up to be. And so are FBC Jax members realizing the same about Brunson.
Now that I think of it, Obama/Brunson would make a great ticket. Mac could do the bashing of the right for Obama....and talk about a nice house, have you seen the VP mansion?
How ungrateful can you be? Team B have no idea what many are suffering through today. I find his comments where he attempts to sympathize with those suffering, disengenuous. After insulting everyone in Jacksonville out of town and that we have no relationship with the Lord, he comes back Sunday and says "you are such a loving church".
Why do we need this? Many are without jobs, losing their homes, have no money for healthcare, and other necessities. He has no conception at his level of suffering for anything. He expects people to just keep giving to his ministry(?)obviously there is a disconnect here. They haven't done without anything lately I bet.
I would be embarrassed to live their lifestyle paid for by the very people that they claim have no relationship with Jesus.
As predicted, noone is taking me up on my offer to point out things on the list that they feel Jerry Vines or Homer Lyndsey would have done....and darn it...I knew I would forget something on my list with so many things...this is one of my personal favorites. When the Jacksonville City Council was debating implementing fees( for storm water, etc.) on churches in Jacksonville, Big Mac told them that he "didn't mind" them instituting fees on our church(which of course come right out of our offerings-not Mac, Debbie, or Trey's salary). His reason for not minding these new fees that would take out of our budget was that they "had them in Dallas" and the fees there were bigger than the ones the City Council proposed here...good grief. Would Jerry Vines or Homer Lyndsey have done this? I don't think so.
And to anon 11:16, I fail to see how mentioning the type of car his wife drives brings this blog down into the gutter. She proudly parks it in the second parking spot of the visitors lot every Sunday(right next to Big Mac's Lexus), so surely she wouldn't mind it being mentioned on a blog as well.
Also, to Rick W....the Hale-Bopp comet should be passing over soon to pick you up...make sure you keep your eyes peeled....
WD, if you want answers to questions, I would be more than glad to meet you in person.
Ghost, you can't even see how rude and spineless it is to take shots at a woman. Your list is filled with lies.
This is not a forum of truth. It is a forum for gossip.
All we get from the two of you are accusations.
So I'm not allowed to ask questions of someone's behavior who makes a six figure salary at our church? I didn't realize that was off limits because she is a woman...
And please, tell me specifically which item I have mentioned is a lie. We keep asking for examples and you provide none. Please sir name one lie on my list. I'll be waiting...
This is the first time I've ever posted on your blog. I am not a member of FBC Jax but I do normally tend to agree with you. But to be fair, are you sure that he was referring to FBC jax when he said 'jacksonville'? Could he have meant the city's culture itself? In your quote, he does not mention the church specifically. There are legit concerns about him, but at times, i think some posts stretch the limit (i.e. the post about the tv commercial) therefore devaluing the true concerns.
Ghost - I have to hand it to you...very complete list. I think that will make for a fine post in the near future.
A few things to add that Vines and Lindsay had too much integrity to do:
- have his son-in-law preach on a Sunday night unannounced, when said son-in-law was a bit over his head in preaching in such a large church (no disrespect meant toward Barry, just to Mac)
- tells his congregation on several occaisions that he can't preach because he has "manuscript deadlines" and his publisher is going to be mad if he doesn't hurry up and finish his book.
- Gives a standing ovation, high-five, and bear hug to a visiting preacher when visiting preacher concludes story about troublesome church members by saying, "I felt like telling him 'you don't pay me enough to be your preacher, brother' "
- screams at the congregation about getting "only 50" men to pray with the pastor, when the pastor asked the men to pray about it, even invoking the name of Homer Lindsay and presuming to know what our late pastor would say on the subject, that our late pastor would come back and reprimand us too.
- in a deacon's meeting with deacon's and their wives present, Lindsay and Vines would never make the remark that Brunson did in late 2006, when discussing needs of men and women in marriage, stand up and say to the effect "We know men all the woman, has to do, right, just get naked"...Vines nor Lindsay would never make such an off color remark as that, ESPECIALLY in the presence of women.
Wow. I must say that the latest blog entrys regarding legalism have really showed us your true colors Watchdog. Paul Zimmerman, one of your faithful moderate posters who tended to side with you on many issues even decided to quit posting after reading the legalism articles you wrote.
I do not blame Paul. This blog from the beginning has been a gossip forum rather than a question forum. The pastor was exactly right when he referred to blogging as a form of beauty shop chit chat. Watchdog, you have always claimed that this blog was intended to raise legitimate questions for important issues regarding the church. These issues obviously press on your heart and on the hearts of many others. But much of this blog has consisted of nothing more than sarcastic and degrading remarks aimed at the pastor and his family, faulty and unreliable information, slanderous statements and everything in between.
Many of us on this blog understood your concerns about the church. We have urged you to ask staff members about these concerns. Occasionally, some of your questions have been answered on this blog. Even Anon 1:22pm has offered to talk with you in person about your valid questions and answer them. But yet....nothing.
Ghost, as far as your comment and your list; it's a joke.
Please Watchdog, Ghost and whoever else, try harder than blogging to get some answers to your questions. Enough with this senseless blogging.
Watchdog-
Why do you even care anymore? By your own admission, you are not in attendance at the services (4/14 8:45). Why not man up and stay and fight if you love FBCJAX?
You keep harkening back to Dr. Lindsay and the "good old days" (my words). But Dr. Lindsay would call you a wimp, for leaving and not fighting, other than on this blog.
If you aren't in attendance and things are as bad you contend, then you are nothing more than a rat leaving a sinking ship!
My advice, go and find another church, where you can be happy and worship and serve the Lord and put "Team Brunson" and all the other stuff behind you.
Attn 5:39::
"Let me tell you something". In the English not "THE GREEK". You nor anyone else can tell some member to leave, even an annointed discipline committee. You obviously are young and need a few more years to "mature". Many of us have been here a long time, serving probably when your parents were young. And paying the bills I might add. You wouldn't have a church at all, if it weren't for the ones that "stayed the course". So wait till you have your church hi-jacked from you and have some person tell you to leave and see how it feels.
Voice of Reason says:
anon April 15 at 1:22 p.m.- I would love to meet with you. Just let me know when and where. And I will record our question and answer session just to protect you so that I don't come on here and misquote you. Okay? You would agree to that right? So when and where? I will be there with my questions and tape recorder and I am sure you will be ready to answer all of these questions, right? If not, quit posting here anonymously and offering to meet with us. If we know you, just post your name and phone number and I will be glad to give you a call.
What happened to all those Mac supporters who wanted to talk about legalism? Didn't want to try and discuss the false teaching of tithing? It's okay, I understand. I guess there really are some cowards who post here. Not because they won't post their names, that would be stupid. But cowards because they can't defend the brainwashed doctrine of tithing other than to quote Malachi 3:10 and their pastors.
Bloggers - I have said it before and I will say it again: You all have the preacher you deserved. God has turned you over to Team Brunson. When will you stiff-necked, legalistic people repent so that God can bring his man in to shepherd us and love us?
Attn 6:39
The intent of my post was not to suggest that anyone leave if there is a "fight" (for lack of a better word) worth fighting.
I am a pastor, halfway across the continent, and I agree that, according to what I read on this blog, some "boneheaded" things have been done. And I believe some accountability needs to be answered for on Team B's part. It's possible, perhaps not likely, that there is a legitimate explanation.
My statement that you took umbrage with was made in the light that by his own admission Watchdog said he was not attending. Which is fine, but you can't take a stand in the battle if you aren't on the battle field!
Therefore, my advice was to go and put all of this in your rearview mirror. It was not meant as a slight at the watchdog.
The fact is my desire is that all the membership and staff (including Team B) could come together and be reconciled to one another and great things for God in Jacksonville.
Again, brother/sister I'm sorry that you took offense at what I said, the tone was NOT one of Brunson's here get over it and leave. This is one of the problem's with just reading words and not listening to a person's heart and their tone.
Robert,
As predicted, you didnt take me up on my offer to explain the list of abuses committed by Mac Brunson, or to let us know which of these abuses you feel Homer Lyndsey or Jerry Vines would have committed. I'm glad you think this list is a joke....I wish you would share with us the humor, because there are many in the church who find nothing humorous about being fleeced by the pastor and having him verbally abuse us from the pulpit, and especially him talking bad about us behind our back to other churches.
Robert, your favorite thing to call Watchdog is a Coward because he blogs anonymously rather than going directly to the church with questions that they would refuse to answer anyway. Perhaps you should at least be fair about things and call "Mac Daddy Brunson" a coward for going to another church yet again and bad mouthing his congregation.
Ghost,
Once again you humor me. You seemed to have turned to the darkside like Watchdog.
First, if I thought there were any abuses on your preacher police report I would most definitley try to explain them. But due to the biast and misleading information, I must conclude that your report is useless and not valid. Let me ask you something. If you predicted I wouldn't respond to your list, then why did you post it to begin with?
Secondly, you think there are many in the church who agree with you and W about being fleeced? Please, you guys are in the very small minority.
Lastly, Ghost you said this at the end of your comment:
"...and bad mouthing his congregation."
Now, by this you mean to tell me his remarks were directed towards the congregation of FBC Jax? How did you find that out? You must have asked the pastor himself....
Well I'll be! It must not be that hard to speak with the pastor and confront him with questions. Did you ask him about the land deal, I know you and W are really concerned about that?
Ghost, I don't know why you have let W brainwash you but the reality of the situation is Pastor Mac Brunson loves our church and the people in it. I know for fact that Pastor Mac deeply cares for the community of Jacksonville. So stop blogging like this and come join the majority in the church who truly appreciate God bringing Pastor Mac to our church.
Robert - I am not brainwashing anyone. I coldn't do that, because I'm not a preacher who is loved and adored, and who people look at me as the "man of God" worthy of praise and adoration and gifts.
There are many, many more people than you realize who are fed up with Team Brunson, and this incredibly careless, inflammatory, and yes: SLANDEROUS remark he made about the sheep he is charged to lead - is just the latest slap in our face among many in the past two years. There are more and more people, some that you know and respect I'm sure - that are fed up with Team Brunson.
So I have gone to the "dark side". Wow - Mac goes to North Carolina, speaking to literally hundreds of pastors and tells them that either FBC Jax or the whole city of Jacksonville is legalistic and "everyone has a list and no one has a real relationship with Christ"....and I dare point it out and call Mac out on it - and that is "going to the dark side". Sorry that makes you uncomfortable, but you ought to be demanding that he explain himself. You Robert might be the one who is brainwashed. Your defense of Mac is amazing. I believe if he mooned the congregation this Sunday you would come here and defend it somehow.
How do I know what he meant by his remark, you ask? That's precisely the problem Robert - he was so careless with his words that we are left to wonder: did he offend just our church, or did he paint the whole city of Jacksonville as being legalist. I don't think Vines ever slammed our church or our city while he was out of town. I'm not sure which is worse: telling the pastors present that its just FBC Jax where "everybody has a list and no one has a real relationship with Jesus Christ"...or was it the whole city in general.
As always Dawg, you amaze me and everyone else with your very critical and judgemental mindset.
Scimming through the comments I saw someone mention Obama. Now I don't know if this is the point they made or not but Barack Obama's pastor is Jeremiah Wright. I'm sure we have all heard and seen on the news what kind of pastor he is. I think if Pastor Brunson was anything like Pastor Jeremiah Wright, we would have a problem.
Robert,
I find it amusing that you say I am brainwashed. Mac Brunson has you convinced that it is a sin worthy of death to question anything he and his family do. He also has you convinced that is sinful if you don't give him at least 10% of everything you have so that he can pay for his million dollar mansion and his wife's Jaguar. Glad I'm the one that's brainwashed.
Also, you admitted in your last post that you don't even read the posts here you simply "skim" through them. I guess it's easier to keep your head in the sand if you don't actually read about Mac's abuses.
Robert, in every single post you have ever made on this blog you have never once even attempted to explain even one of the abuses pointed out here that was committed by Mac. This is because deep down inside you know it is wrong for a Pastor to live a life of excess, to verbally abuse his church, to makes promises to other pastors and city leaders about how he would help them and then not follow through on his word, and all of the other abuses we listed.
And don't kid yourself Robert...this blog is extremely effective. That's why you feel the need to come on here every day and try to defend the indefensible Mac Brunson. There are many in our church who are disgusted with the direction he is taking this church. I have discussed this with many-not on a blog, but in person-who are sick of Mac's antics. Some of the people I have spoken to are Sunday school teachers and deacons...I suppose they have travelled to the dark side as well, right Robert?
Anon: April 15, 2008 7:38 PM
I'd be glad to meet with WD. I don't even have a clue who you are. Why would I meet with you so you could post information on this blog. If I wanted to post information I would have already.
This blog is not a forum of truth. If I gave any answers, truthful as they may be, they would be twisted. That is the norm from Watchdog and Ghost.
The problem Watchdog has is simple. Fact is FBC has been legalistic for years. So, when our pastor calls this sin out, he takes it personally. Makes complete sense. Then he turns the gun on our pastor and calls is slander.
No. Fact is he has been fighting this trend from the beginning. WD has had his eyes closed to this until now.
Ghost. Your list has no merit. You cannot answer questions that are filled with lies. Deal with it.
Robert, you're the man. Any one of
these guys could deal with you in person. You've even told them where you sit in church. If they really wanted to deal with this, they would man up, face to face.
They continue to hide in cyber-space.
Fact is WD and Ghost, there is nothing to fear. Do you really think, if we had legitimate answers that we would in someway harm or ostracize you?
Sure we're sick of this blog (So why don't you quit coming here? Because we will not turn our backs on a brother.), but at least we are willing to deal with the issues. You are not.
You raise issues. You raise issues like legalism, only because you take it personally. You raise land and nepotism because you think you are being fleeced. You bring in any issue you can to plead the same case. The problem is that your arguments would fail in court.
The land was a gift. That is between the giver and the reciever. He brought in his family on day one. Our church is filled with family members who work together. The legalism is a problem in our church. Staff memebers have admitted it to me.
Do you want to deal with these things? Or do you just want to keep degrading a man and his family?
Biblically, this is a mess. We are called to raise these issues in front of each other, face to face. We are called to handle problems within the body and thereby maintaining Christian unity. This is not the right forum. It causes discord in the Body of Christ.
Jesus commanded us to love God and love our neighbor. How does a blog do either Watchdog? You've told me previously that that is not your purpose in this blog. You are correct. However, all our purposes must serve God's purposes. And if this forum fails to follow Jesus' command, then ultimately this forum fails.
If you want to just react to what I've said and try to snag me into another argument, that is fine. I'd prefer you think this over. I won't be back for a while. So you (WD and Ghost)don't have to take your shots, it just won't bother me. However, if your intentions are constructive, I will attempt further dialogue.
If there were a chance of getting Team Brunson out of that church, I might come back. Especially, if we don't have to "pay him off". Then we can have a bonfire and burn those (never seen by most) bylaws.
Maybe someone on the pulpit selection committee has an idea. After all, they must be suffering from "BUYERS REMORSE" by now, and I do mean 'BUYERS'. We have paid a bundle for this debacle.
Hi Ghost:
I have also spoken with a number of people (teachers & deacons too) who are disgusted with what's going on at FBC. I'm guessing those (very small minority, according to RP) people are just a tiny reason for the $$$ being less in offerings in recent times.
Speaking of $$$, do you know what the goal was for the media offering? I think on Sunday it was stated that we had collected $125,000 so far.
Anon 7:38...
Ghost. Your list has no merit. You cannot answer questions that are filled with lies. Deal with it.
Watchdog has asked repeatedly, and I will ask again...name ONE specific thing on that list is a lie? You cannot, because everything I listed is fact. I will be waiting for you, Robert, or whoever else would like to take a stab at it to tell me one thing on my list, or the addition that Watchdog made to it that is a lie. I am waiting for you Brunson supporters to enlighten me, but you refuse to do so. I suppose I will just keep blogging away until you explain to me what I have posted is a lie.
And anon...you say I should go meet with Robert...why? I don't mean any disrespect towards Robert when I say this(as I am young myself) but Robert is a young man not long out of high school, and he is supposed to give me the answers that the Pastor should give? It is the Pastor's job to explain himself, not Roberts. The Pastor owes an explanation to the church as a whole, not just Watchdog and I. You say to quit blogging and ask someone in the church...these questions have been asked repeatedly and no answer is given, so we turn to this blog. I will continue to blog so that more people will realize what Brunson is doing to our church and hold back money. Once it starts to hit him where it hurts, as giving continues to plummit, perhaps then Mac will decide to listen to his congregation.
Forgive me for being off the topic that's being discussed in this thread. I was just reading about a church that Dr. Brunson might want to look at.
Starbucks at church? That ain't nothin'. How 'bout what this church in Ohio is starting to do. Yes, let's have church in a bar because you know you can't reach people anymore -- they're not ever home! Cut and paste the link below to read all about it.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/search/content/oh/story/business/2008/04/14/ddn041408churchbarweb.html
I sure am glad the man Dr. Vines wanted to bring in as co-pastor prior to announcing his retirement chose to remain where he was.
The pit bulls who frequent this forum to do nothing but chew on the personal dislikes of their pastor are need to comprehend what God says about their voices of bitterness.
Proverbs 6:16-19 (NKJV)
These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
[17] A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
[18] A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
[19] A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.
Please note the first seven are objects while the seventh (in bold) is speaking directly towards a person.
You have been warned.
Anon - is that a personal threat from you, that YOU have warned me, or are you just presuming to know what God will do to recalcitrant bloggers who point out abuses of a pastor - the things you call my "personal dislikes".
You have a lot of nerve to come here and accuse of "sowing discord"...go ahead and accuse me of that, but please, if you're going to have any ounce of credibility would you please accuse Mac of the same thing...he is the one, not me, that stood in a SBC pulpit, in front of 100's of pastors, and proclaimed to everyone that FBC Jax is a hotbed of legalism. That my friend, is sowing discord, painting all of his church with a broad brush like that.
What is all of this discord? Why are we seeing it now? You say that it was not here prior to his arrival? We never had a blog until Mac got here!!
to April 16, 2008 12:18 PM:
Are you back, Steve?
"I sure am glad the man Dr. Vines wanted to bring in as co-pastor prior to announcing his retirement chose to remain where he was."
My understanding was "the man Dr. Vines wanted to bring in as co-pastor" was none other than Dr. Brunson. If he would have come back then he might have gotten a little help as to what is and isn't acceptable for a new pastor to do within the first 15 minutes of his arrival.
I guess he didn't want to come at that time because things would have been a little different -- for instance, he might have been offered a whole lot less salary that wouldn't have afforded a mil. dollar house,a jag and a lexus and a private office where you both bring your dogs to work with you!
Ghost concerning the last sentence in your comment: "maybe Mac will listen to his congregation". I would say firstly, it is not his congregation. And to whether he will lister or not, I don't care. He has lost all credibility with many of us. His leadership in this church any further is tarnished severely. I am no longer interested in Mac Brunson as my preacher.
Attn: 12:18.
Regarding your warning: Don't use threats it gets you nowhere. The discord arrived with the Brunson's and their agenda. Are we to set down and accept anything handed to us? Might I remind you we are not stupid sheep to be led by the nose.
This is how cults do it, just trust and obey.
Everyone knows that Mega-Churches in the SBC (when they come open), only go to "Rising Stars" and "high profile" preachers making names for themselves. Right away you don't have much to choose from.
Anon... April 16, 2008 12:18 PM:
Are you back, Steve?
I'm not Steve and I posted the words you quoted.
My understanding was "the man Dr. Vines wanted to bring in as co-pastor" was none other than Dr. Brunson.
Maybe at some time after the man first approached. I have no idea when Dr. Vines considered Dr. Brunson. Yet, I am clearly aware of another man asked and chose not to come. Again, I am grateful if this (cyber attack) is what some of the members live to do to pastors.
fbc_jax...
When I speak to Dr. Brunson, I'll pass on my words to him in the forum I have. What I say to Dr. Brunson is between me and him, on his turf.
I am speaking to you on your turf. The platform you chose to create to sew discord.
My warning was not a threat but a warning to the truth of scripture. You do believe Proverbs 6:19b is truth, don't you?
Anon 1:32...
Call it what you want...you say it's sowing discord....I say it's demanding accountability. If you don't believe in a pastor having accountability, perhaps this isn't the place for you.
If you are so convinced this blog is nothing but sowing discord then I challenge you, just as I have challenged Robert and others to point out ONE thing on this blog that is not true. If my list is a joke and a bunch of lies as you people claim, I don't understand why it is so hard to come up with at least one specific thing that either I or watchdog have said that is a lie. Do we need to post the list again since you are having trouble?
"Sewing discord"
and
"touch not thine annointed"
I've heard it all before anon, so you don't need to post it here.
Mac Brunson has sewn the discord my friend, not the bloggers. He has treated us badly, despite the love and acceptance he was shown upon his arrival.
But it all makes sense now - he came here to this church with the understanding we were a "legalistic" church in needing of the Team Brunson rehab.
If you, if Mac Brunson, as smart and educated as he is, thinks that FBC Jax is legalistic, then you've never been to a legalistic church.
Legalistic churches are very unloving.
Legalistic churches place heavy burdens on people, guilt-tripping them into behaving a certain way under the guise that they will gain special favor for adherence, and incur punishment for disobience.
Legalistic churches don't preach salvation through grace, but by grace and works and adherence to a strict set of rules.
Legalistic churches, many of them, are browbeat by their pastor. (e.g. Mac Brunson)
Legalistic churches, generally have pastors standing before them telling them their job is to "obey" the pastor. (e.g. Mac Brunson)
Legalistic churches form discipline committees to discipline church members who don't follow the rules (e.g. our committee formed by Mac in the by law changes ram-rodded through in Dec 07).
FBC Jax has not been legalistic - although admittidly we have shown some tendencies over the years - as in preaching storehouse tithing - but still our pastors acknowledged we are not under the law but under grace and our giving should be out of our love for the Lord and not some legalistic OT ritual. Yes our preachers, unlike Mac, preached hard against very specific sins, and very specific social ills. While Vines and Lindsay preached hard against liquor, they did so out of conviction not as a rule to adhere in order to be saved. Yes, youth workers had to sign a form that says they would abstain and not go to movies - that was not legalism, that was holding the standard high.
But in no way, no shape, no form, has FBC Jax been, or is it now a "hotbed of legalism". If so, then shame on Jerry Vines for leaving Mac such a "hotbed of legalism". Yet Mac believes it, and apparently so do his supporters who have posted here believe we CURRENLTY are and always have been legalistic...and they even say some of the staff say it (let me guess which ones: Whitmire, George Kemp, Trey Brunson, Debbie Brunson and the others Mac has brought in). There is no way that men like John Blount, Jr, or Kevin King that have been under the ministry of Lindsay and Vines would say our church has been or is now legalistic.
So I reject it wholeheartedly, and if we are in any way legalistic, its a crying shame that Mac Brunson goes around telling people we are. The more I ponder his words, the more absolutely amazed I am.
Mac - if you ever tell us again what a "loving church" we are, I hope you get boo'ed, because you're lying. "Hotbeds of legalism" aren't loving - they are very unloving, uncaring Christians who seek to put a heavy yoke on people.
FOX NEWS ALERT CITY OF JACKSONVILLE: If you are considering FBA as a school, be forewarned: you're sending your kid downtown into a HOTBED OF LEGALISM, according to Mac Brunson. I would keep my kids as far away as I could from a church that is a hotbed of legalism. If the pastor of the church openly says we are a hotbed of legalism, then you can take that to the bank, the church is legalistic and very likely the school will be teaching legalism.
Ghost,
My issue is not that what you spew is truth but that you spew it publically and work to find support in building a case against your pastor - thus the sewing discord among the brethren.
You and Pittbull have justified that this means of communication is healthy for the body. You are deceiving yourself and many others. Your words and constant criticism about what you don't like instead of dealing with it personally and within the walls of the church is cause for discord among the brethren.
I know you can't go there mentally, you won't let yourself because any and all who don't see it your way are the enemy. I don't think God is honored.
to anon. April 16, 2008 1:28 PM:
"I have no idea when Dr. Vines considered Dr. Brunson. Yet, I am clearly aware of another man asked and chose not to come..."
Who is the man you are "clearly aware of" who chose not to come?
I couldn't help noticing that you are also posting as "anonymous" but you sure sounded like a Steve who used to post quite frequently with little warnings and threats sort of like you just did.
You say it wasn't meant as a threat, just a warning. Honestly, who do you think you're kidding?
We are not doing anything wrong by asking why there is no accountability at FBC since the arrival of Team B. And while he seems to be a perfectly nice person and ditto for his family, it doesn't change anything as to what has gone on so far.
Face it, it's a really bad testimony for preachers to be living high on the hog. Do you think it's not noticed in the community? You can bet it is!
You may be assured that people see it for what it is. And it's WRONG! Especially when you're asking for people to be giving EXTRA money.
Ghost,
You want one example of a lie?
I think the whole blog speaks for itself.
Mr. Peeples:
Such profound answers!
I know you think you're helping, but could you give us a clue as to what that last post means?
In a comment by Ghost at 1:59pm, he asked us to give one specific example of a lie that either he or Watchdog has said. Well, I'm saying look at the whole blog and you'll find many. It's articles are filled with inaccurate informaiton followed by twisted, illogical reasoning.
As one Anon put it, all this blog does is sow discord. Amen!!!
to anon April 16, 2008 2:50 PM
Sorry to disappointed you but I am not Steve. Is my posting anonymously a problem?
It was a warning... Do you not believe Proverbs 6:19 to be truth?
You state:
We are not doing anything wrong by asking why there is no accountability at FBC since the arrival of Team B.
Do you really believe all you are doing is asking questions? You are keeping a record of wrong which goes against 1 Cor. 13:5.
God forbid if you chose to seek scriptures direction on how to deal with one who has offended you or to love one you believe has done you wrong. Let's not go there, it is not in agreement with you. Something you want scripture to be but that's backward thinking. You need to be in agreement with scripture.
Please show anyone who reads this blog where scripture supports what you are doing in such a public forum.
I'll wait for you to answer or avoid.
Mr. Peeples:
You said "In a comment by Ghost at 1:59pm, he asked us to give one specific example of a lie that either he or Watchdog has said. Well, I'm saying look at the whole blog and you'll find many. It's articles are filled with inaccurate informaiton followed by twisted, illogical reasoning."
I'm sorry, I guess I thought I was being funny. What I meant was Ghost asked for you to point out the lies that you've mentioned. Well, we're still waiting.
to anon April 16, 2008 4:05 PM:
I didn't say I thought there was anything wrong with your posting anonymously. But with the content of your postings it does seem a little surprising that you wouldn't want to give your name. Is it because we might all recognize your name as being a staff member? Well, maybe we wouldn't recognize it, staff member or not. :-)
So you don't believe a church member should be aware of things being done in a church when there is no accountability for them?
Do you think the people that followed the Rev. Jim Jones should have just maybe been a teeny tiny bit more discerning than they were? (If you're too young to know who Jim Jones is you can search it out on the web -- Jim Jones The Peoples Temple.)
We are a discerning people who see some obvious wrong being done and then we are told to basically "shut up and give."
C'mon now, sir/madam, let's get real!
The internet is a place of ideas. No one is forcing anyone to believe anything as you can either accept it or reject it.
When I joined FBC I never agreed to follow a man. As Dr Lindsay used to say "man will disappoint you every time". Boy was he right.
"Do you really believe all you are doing is asking questions? You are keeping a record of wrong which goes against 1 Cor. 13:5."
I forgot to ask you something. Should the people at Darrel Gilyard's church be asking questions? How about at Bob Gray's church? Questions about why they were kept in the dark while things were being shoved into a closet that should have been addressed much much sooner than when someone gets arrested!
I am certainly NOT saying that there's anything of an inappropriate sexual nature going on at FBC! But weren't Darrell Gilyard and Bob Gray preaching from the pulpit while engaging in improper relationships at the same time?
My point is that church members ARE to be discerning and keep their eyes open to make sure everything is being done decently and in order -- to be honorable before God AND man!
Voice of Reason says:
WD - it seems you have let this blog get off topic by trying to argue with one or two who think public communication about issues of concern is wrong. They accuse you of spreading lies, yet won't tell us of even one. Let me help them out. Here is how easy it would be: For example:
WD - the pastor's wife is on staff with no real job description or posted office hours.
Response: That is a lie - she is NOT on staff. Period. Lie exposed.
Or, WD: - the pastor accepted a land gift worth $307K only two weeks after he arrived for "love and affection."
Response: That is a lie. He was never given a gift of land. OR: He paid full value for the land. OR: It was three weeks after he arrived, not two.
WD: He said he is in a hotbed of legalism while preaching to other pastors about our church.
Response: That is a lie. He never said such a thing.
So come on supporters of Team Brunson, at least try and point out even ONE specific lie if you want to keep coming here and saying we are lying.
And while I am it, please stop offering to meet with anyone if you aren't willing to give your name and phone number so WD or any of us can actually meet with you. Why do you do that, anyway? Is it just to go tell some yes men that you have offered to meet with the bloggers?
And I agree the conversation should be recorded so that both sides can have verification of their words and not allow them to be twisted or misrepresented. A recording will keep both sides honest knowing their words can be quickly posted if they try to change what they said.
Voice of Reason says:
Ghost - I read your list carefully and can't find one single item that you listed that is false or in error. Thanks.
Hey Watchdog - it is Wednesday and my pastor is not preaching. I know we pay him good money to give us a history lesson, and I know he was recently blasting us to a group of preachers, and that he just returned from a cruise, and that he left the Easter service before welcoming guests.
So where is he?
Whine, whine, whine....and whine some more. Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine...if you can't think of anything new to whine about, just bring up the same old stuff to whine about all over again. Whining has never accomplished anything, anywhere, anytime. That dog won't hunt - won't even get off the porch! If you feel so strongly and have proof, stop making whiney accusations and show some action. I think you are a yellow-bellied coward whining baby who is not capable of hearing God's instruction or following his direction because you are too busy whining to listen. A better title for you and your fellow whiners is FBC Jax Whinedogs. If you were man enough to acknowledge your actions, we could examine your life in depth like you do the lives of everyone you accuse. I wonder how you would stand up? When you stand before God all things done in secret will be made public - everyone will know all about each of us. I'm far from perfect and so are you - spend some time examining your own life. You might be surprised what you learn about yourself. Be brave, what's Mac going to do to you anyway, give you a whipping? Grow up and be a man! I've reached a point where I am disgusted with your baby whining. Adios, whineydog.
Could it possibly be in addition to a history lesson Mac could be preaching somewhere telling another church that we are legalistic and that we have no relationship with Jesus? Whatever, if he is preaching somewhere else, he gets paid for being there and paid for being here.
Anon 9:43 - adios then. Enjoy that Kool Aid...
Young man 9:43 you should really go to bed and sleep now, its past your bedtime. And you really taxed your brain cells with that last blog.
After all," Tomorrow is another day".
P.S. I am so glad WD is a watchdog and not a lapdog.
Robert,
I am beginning to wonder about you sir. It seems as if you are a little slow, so let me try to thorougly explain this to you. You say this whole blog is full of lies...OK we've established that you think that...can we please move on to step 2?
Step 2 is you pick out ONE any ANY of these MANY LIES and you explain which part of the statement I made is not true. You have about 30 to pick from so I challenge you PLEASE FIND ONE and explain it just as Voice of Reason showed you to. OK...I think I explained it enough for you now Robert....I hope that you get it.
If you can't get it after this time then this blog is obviously not the place for you, and as I said before I'm going to ask you to please restrict your blogging to posts on the "Mac Daddy Brunson is the Man!" Facebook group.
anon 9:43 - please stop whining about this blog being a bunch of whiners.
And the reason these same topics keep getting discussed are because they still haven't been addressed.
As much as Team Brunson and the Kool-Aid drinkers would like to see them go away, they won't.
Adios.
Anonymous said... April 16, 2008 5:23 PM
"Do you really believe all you are doing is asking questions? You are keeping a record of wrong which goes against 1 Cor. 13:5."
I forgot to ask you something. Should the people at Darrel Gilyard's church be asking questions? How about at Bob Gray's church?
Ask who? The world who has nothing to do with the answers they seek?
No one here is saying, don't ask questions. My beef is with the venue which has been selected to proclaim criticisms of another Christian.
Questions about why they were kept in the dark while things were being shoved into a closet that should have been addressed much much sooner than when someone gets arrested!
You need to find another comparison. This one places Dr. Brunson among molesters and I don't think you want to go there.
I am certainly NOT saying that there's anything of an inappropriate sexual nature going on at FBC!
Of course you are not but you bring the idea up for others to read and draw their own conclusions. You lack of carefulness is damaging.
But weren't Darrell Gilyard and Bob Gray preaching from the pulpit while engaging in improper relationships at the same time?
I'll let you continue to go there if you must but the attempt to compare is over the top, even for you.
My point is that church members ARE to be discerning and keep their eyes open to make sure everything is being done decently and in order -- to be honorable before God AND man!
All men? Men who need not know the painful details of the things in your church? I disagree. We are to be light for the gospel. We are to share truth. Oh by the way, truth is a person, NOT the pronouncement of a sin someone else makes.
to anon. April 17, 2008 7:15 AM:
Okay, point taken. But you know I wasn't even insinuating that. My point was that the big guys knew about what was going on -- for years! And yet they didn't see fit to do anything about what these guys were up to. Just shove it back into the closet and it will go away.
And what abuot Jim Jones, Peoples Temple congregants? You didn't address that one. What about Frank Harber's church members? What about Wade Burleson's church members (Enid,Oklahoma)? He has taken his SBC church off the deep end. How many are blindly following him off the cliff because it's wrong to ask questions and expect to get answers.
Once again, my point is that there is no accountability coming from the pulpit. Why didn't we get a word from the pulpit last night as to where Dr. Brunson was? If he's away on an emergency, shouldn't we know it? If he's on a speaking engagement, shouldn't we be told? No, because that might set a precedent! And then we might have to be told other things...
Rush Witt may be a perfectly nice guy but his attempt to show legalism @FBC was a far cry from what legalism is. And they tell us that no FBC staff members are reading this blog! :-)
Anyway, you already knew what my point was but you wanted something to whine about.
April 17, 2008 10:10 AM
And what abuot Jim Jones, Peoples Temple congregants? You didn't address that one.
If you think Jim Jones was a Christian led by the true God, then we might be able to compare but I don't believe you believe that. Can we keep it apples to apples?
But to address it for you, they were a cult, not part of the family of God and needed to be exposed. FBCJAX and Dr. Brunson are not in the same category.
What about Frank Harber's church members?
What I recall about Frank Harbors church is that the news became public when the law was broken, not before. Apples to apples, please.
What about Wade Burleson's church members (Enid,Oklahoma)? He has taken his SBC church off the deep end. How many are blindly following him off the cliff because it's wrong to ask questions and expect to get answers.
Your position against Wade Burleson is one not agreed upon among SBCers. but to respond to his asking questions, he has done all he has done with grace. He has not called people names or belittled others. Of course we are talking about his relationship with IMB not a church, where questions are being asked.
Once again, my point is that there is no accountability coming from the pulpit. Why didn't we get a word from the pulpit last night as to where Dr. Brunson was?
You will have to ask someone who knows. Not join the assumption gang and create all sorts of scenarios. If you cut open the pillow and let all the feathers fly out you will have a difficult time gathering them all back up. Does that even matter to you?
If he's away on an emergency, shouldn't we know it? If he's on a speaking engagement, shouldn't we be told? No, because that might set a precedent! And then we might have to be told other things...
We did not always know where Dr. Vines was when he wasn't there. The precedent had already been set and not by Dr. Brunson.
Rush Witt may be a perfectly nice guy but his attempt to show legalism @FBC was a far cry from what legalism is. And they tell us that no FBC staff members are reading this blog! :-)
I don't know if any are or not. I have not asked.
Anyway, you already knew what my point was but you wanted something to whine about.
You really think it is me who is whining, don't you? That says more than you probably can comprehend due to the bitterness you show.
to anon April 17, 2008 12:43 PM:
I think the sad part is that you are serious in your reply.
The point about any of those churches, whether they be in Jacksonville or Oklahoma -- or in a jungle somewhere -- is that the church members don't know what's going on until their church is already in trouble! Because they aren't being discerning enough to keep their eyes and ears open to fallacy. We ARE to be discerning as to where we put our dollars that God has given to us.
Have you ever heard of Billy Graham? His books were always open because he wanted things to be honorable in the sight of God AND man. Yes, in the sight of God and ALL men. He had nothing to hide, nothing to be embarrassed about.
You see when there's nothing going on behind the scenes that wouldn't pass "the smell test" then there's nothing to be concerned about.
As to Burleson, ONE of his teaching errors is that in the right situation, it's okay to consume alcohol -- oh but of course to the Glory of God! That's total bunk! It's called situational ethics. Again, my point is that his people are being misled. He should excuse himself from the pulpit and go on a speaking tour to promote his brand of Christianity - not be busy leading the lambs astray.
Dr. Brunson could have taken care of all the questions that have been asked in the blogs by talking up front about things before they were done. Trouble is, some of them were perhaps approved by the pulpit search committee or finance committee before he even got here.
Dr. Brunson could still fix things by coming clean before his congregation. But he doesn't do that because he perhaps thinks he's not accountable to us. Oh, but he is accountable!
As to Burleson, ONE of his teaching errors is that in the right situation, it's okay to consume alcohol -- oh but of course to the Glory of God! That's total bunk! It's called situational ethics. Again, my point is that his people are being misled. He should excuse himself from the pulpit and go on a speaking tour to promote his brand of Christianity - not be busy leading the lambs astray.
Of course you are spinning this to meet your criteria. What WB is saying is that the bible does not prohibit drinking. Do you disagree with this interpretation? It does prohibit drunkenness, as WB and I would agree with.
It would be good if you get your facts straight. Trying to spin things to fit your agenda does not help your position.
Dr. Brunson could still fix things by coming clean before his congregation. But he doesn't do that because he perhaps thinks he's not accountable to us. Oh, but he is accountable!
Scripture teaches he is accountable for you, not to you. Hebrews 13:17. If you have scripture to support your position, please share it.
Anon 9:50.
No scripture to quote to you, but just common sense and common decency says that the man who is earning hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the church budget has some level of accountability to the people who are giving the money to the church.
No scripture to quote to you, but just common sense and common decency says that the man who is earning hundreds of thousands of dollars per year from the church budget has some level of accountability to the people who are giving the money to the church.
April 18, 2008 10:14 AM
Common sense and common decency... would you accept such conclusions for truth from your pastor? Nope, you would enjoy the opportunity to blast him for using such criteria to determine truth.
Please don't cry you want truth from Dr. Brunson when you refuse to stake your positions on something different than truth.
Anon 10:39
Huh? Sorry, I'm not smart enough to understand what you're saying.
Let me quote what you said in italics also:
Scripture teaches he is accountable for you, not to you.
Yes, he is accountable for me, according to scripture. But that in no way excludes the fact, based on common decency and courtesy and just plain good 'ole common sense that he is to some degree accountable TO his congregation. Being accountable FOR and accountable TO are not mutually exclusive as your post seemed to indicate. Your post assumes that if he is accountable FOR us, that he must not be accountable TO us.
WD,
All I am asking is that you use scripture to support your conclusion.
Would you allow Dr. Brunson to say we are going to do __________ because it is based upon common decency and courtesy?
If so, someone could make the argument that letting groups which some groups might oppose use the church facilities is the thing to do based upon common decency and courtesy.
But you might want to be the one who dictates what is common decency and courtesy. Where does that leave everyone? If you use scripture, then you can say it is true. If not, then it is up for a vote as to what is common decency and courteous.
anon 5:11 p.m. - Mac says lots of things based not on scripture, but on common sense and decency. Remember the Liberty Mutual commercial he played? No scripture there, but the point was valid. What about promoting a business because they were not open on Sundays? Any scripture to back that up? Or was it something else? What scripture to support starting the school? What scripture that women are more sensitive to the Holy Spirit than men? What scripture that we should not be going house to house to reach people? What scripture that paying cash to the local church is the same as OT storehouse tithing of food so there would me meat in God's house?
Come on, Anon! You can't really believe that we have to a scripture for common sense? If that is the case, show me the scripture where marijuana is expressly prohibited. Show me where I can't drink alcohol in moderation and still serve on staff? Yet, you expect us to show you scripture when all we ask for is the man be accountable to those he took a free condo from, took a free piece of land from, took a huge salary from, took salaries for his wife and son? What scripture says the office of pastor/shepherd is NOT accountable to the congregation?
What scripture says blogging about your concerns is not acceptable? What scripture allows you to demand scripture from someone before what they are doing is acceptable? You can't be serious!
April 19, 2008 8:58 PM
What scripture says blogging about your concerns is not acceptable? What scripture allows you to demand scripture from someone before what they are doing is acceptable? You can't be serious!
Let's put this one out there for you to consider...
Ephes. 4:29 (NKJV)
Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
It is obvious that much of what is stated on this blog is not edifying. Oh it is to some but to many it is not.
My question here would be...
Is your purpose to expose or edify?
Thomas Rich, if it is true and Holy Spirit put this man to lead this Church to the next level, who do you think you are to stop it or make it harder to do. I am a member of FBC since 2001 and I love and I love it even more after Mac became a pastor. You want it the old way, just say it, you have personal issues or envy about Mac's personal property, just say it. You ashamed yourself and made a favor to our Church giving it more publicity. Your murmuring about uncovering your identity is just embarrassing. You are not a man if you are afraid to stand behind your accusations. One fact that you are so touchy about your identity is the clear sign of wrongfulness of your words and intentions. You need to repent and not only before God and people you were trying to mix with dirt, but publicly, since you have made it public. All freedom comes with responsibility that you are so afraid to take, but it seems it's not of your choice anymore.
... I read these posts again with a heavy heart. If you you are so for winning Jacksonville to Christ, then stop this garbage that turns people away from the church and go out and reach people. Even if you think you are right, you still are doing the work of the devil. End of story.
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