Its also very interesting that many of Mac's supporters have very vaguely defended him by just saying the blog is spreading "lies and slander" about Mac Brunson, without directly addressing the issues raised.
As of late there has been a flurry of activity of Mac Brunson supporters on the blog. That is great, I welcome all posters. The problem is, in their zeal to defend their pastor, they are engaging in the very same thing they are accusing this blog of doing: spreading lies and slander.
I'll just post a few of the quotes here from the past few days that are "lies and slander".
We'll start with someone who calls himself "Micah".
Here are few gems from Micah:
"....Doug Pigg was lying to the Pastor and staff, and keeping budget information and figures from committees." and then later "As to the post shaming me for what I said about Doug Pigg...Whether you like it or not sir, he was fired for lying and keeping budget information and other information a secret. It makes no difference if you agree or not, that is the truth. "
Really, Micah? Doug Pigg is a liar? He "lied to the pastor"? Who told you that? Where did you get that information from? If that is true, there no doubt has been a breach of confidentiality on your part or someone on the staff's part that released this information. If its false, then you're quite possibly a slanderer. I'm sure that your remarks here will get back to Doug Pigg and maybe he can inquire with the church how such information was released to "Micah".
Here's another:
"why do you avoid the fact that the Pastor has openly announced that his land, was simply a gift...he didnt ask for it, nor did he seek it, but it was a gift. "
Mac has never openly announced that the land was given to him as a gift. The $300,000 land gift given to Mac Brunson by one of donors just weeks after Mac arrived has never, ever, been discussed in any way to the congregation. If it has, please someone correct me and I'll retract this statement.
"the Pastor has openly announced that he was approached with the idea to change the bylaws."
One of the most arrogant moves our pastor has made, in my opinion, was the decision to change the bylaws without widespread dissemination to the congregation beforehand, and without even the pastor standing before the congregation to summarize the changes before the vote. Not one word to his congregation. The pastor "openly announced" that he was approached with the idea? I don't believe he has ever said anything about that - but whether he has or has not and whether the changes were his idea or not, he's the pastor and the shepherd of the flock and its his responsibility to communicate these things to the church. His failure to communicate the bylaw changes, which we know included the addition of a "discipline committee" and changes to pastoral authority in the church, have greatly harmed the trust many people have in him to be open and honest with his congregation. Definitely not a wise move when there will be some very major decisions to be made in the future that will require the support of his congregation.
"Where in the Bible does it say gifts cant be given and received? Does it not say that every "good and perfect gift is given from the Father"?"
OK, not a lie or slander, but just stupidity. No where does the Bible say gifts can't be given or received, no one here has made such a claim. But common sense tells us that some gifts should not be received - we know this to be true in the corporate world, and we certainly know it to be true in Christian ministries - just ask Senator Grassley. And if this land gift was God's moving and doing, then by all means share it with the congregation so we can all rejoice...otherwise it looks like an enticement to bring him here. Then of course the video produced of the donor's sons' business earlier this year looks like a return favor, but that's for another time.
"Why do you avoid the evidence given that shows the Pastor kept his word to Rev. Jones? "
I certainly haven't avoided that evidence. I asked for it, and one or more posters have said that FBC Jax met its obligation to Rev Jones. I posted all messages concerning Rev Jones.
"When someone does sign his name, he is immediately attacked and ridiculed. "
Lie. Issues are discussed here. If you can't stand to have your ideas critiqued then don't post.
"Doesn't the Bible say that as believers, we are accountable ONLY to God? Yes, I'm quite sure it does. No man is accountable to another man, that makes no sense because no man, but Christ, is perfect."
I'm not aware of the verse that says we are accountable only to God and not to man. Besides that's just ludicrous. The Bible is full of scripture that speaks how we are accountable to each other, and we know full well that we ARE accountable to our fellow man.
"So, to sum it up...Watchdog, you are showing fake concerns about the issues because you dont care enough to put your name to it..."
My concern is genuine. I blog anonymously for other reasons that I've stated numerous times.
"Nothing the pastor does ever takes place without a voting committee agreeing its the best thing to do. "
Wow. I hardly think that is the case. Did a committee vote on "Time to Stand with Israel?" (maybe, I'm seriously asking). Did a committee vote on the use of non-SBC Sunday School material? Did a committee vote to allow Mac to travel to North Carolina to proclaim to his friends that he is in a "hotbed of legalism"? Did a committee vote on the decision to spend church resources on a video commercial promoting the sons of the $300k land donor? Did a committee approve that we would hold a "media evangelism" offering on Resurrection Sunday? Sure, committees at FBC Jax do approve many things, but not all decisions of the pastor. And the history of our church is that we all follow the pastor's lead, and the committees for the most part follow the pastor's desires...which worked well under Lindsay and Vines for the most part, but isn't working so well now.
So please, Mac's defenders, post here as much as you like. But try to limit the lies, and try not to drag any previous ministers into the discussion, and let's leave FBC Dallas out of this as well. All of this speaks NOTHING to the subject of this blog, which are the abuses of Mac Brunson.
Watchdog, I will come forth to admit my mistake of doing what I accuse you of doing. My comment about Doug Pigg was not made by a breach of confidentiality...I dont work at the church, nor am I involved with those who hold such positions. My post was made simply from my observations of staff re-arrangement, talk of the budget and other things I hear as I walk the halls of FBCJax.
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected and will most certainly admit that what I posted could and very well may be wrong. If I was wrong about my assumptions, good, I hope I am wrong. Ill take the high road and say formally that it was never my intention to drag someone through the dirt, offend or wrong someone.
However, I will stand firm on one thing, what I said of Rev. Pigg, hopefully wrong of course, is no different from the assumptions you make about the Pastor. Your blog is merely made of observations you have made, the same as my post was from observations I have made.
The difference between you and I is very simple, I am able to admit a mistake and say that my assumption could very well be wrong. You however,have not shown the ability or maturity (not a put down in any way) to be able to say that you very well may be wrong in the accusations you make.
So once again, my words were merely my own assumptions and observations, that could and very well may be wrong. I go as far as to say I hope very strongly that what I posted isn't true because I was at the church while Rev. Pigg was here and I will say that he did a lot of good work and was loved by many. I wish he and his family all the best.
Micah
Voice of Reason says:
ReplyDeleteWhy is so much instant credibility given to "facts" posted by the anonymous blogger who signs his posts as "Micah." How would "Micah" be privy to any more facts than anyone else such that other anons come on and immediately say with certainty that "Micah posts facts." Maybe Micah is telling the truth, but it appears he has flat out lied about a couple of things already.
And to the Dallas posters and other "supporters" of Mac Brunson, we will be quick to agree that he has one-million, two hundred and seventy five thousand, three hundred and forty-five really good things about him. However, there are probably nine or ten things that have called into question his motives and integrity and ability to lead our congregation. Those are the things being discussed here. Please start hundreds of other blogs telling about how great you think he is. I will post there about all that I like about him too. And while you are at it, why not have him sign your Bible or get his autograph.
I agree, no one is perfect. But because that is true, do we look the other way after a series of questionable events by this Team B? Darrel Gilyard and Bob Gray were also very talented men of God, but they needed some oversight in only one or two areas. Would you try and defend them also by saying only that they are not perfect. Did those children and their parents "trust God to handle" them?
Anyway, stay on topic, boys. Don't spread false rumors about Doug Pigg that you can't substantiate. His decades of service without a hint of scandal deserve better from you.
As for Mac, he was not pre-judged. He was post-judged. Post conference room, post wedding reception for son, post nepotism, post Amelia Island, post $307K land gift from Collings, post video commercial for Collins builders during a Sunday a.m. service, post adding wife and son on salary, post running off almost all the previous staff, post criticizing his congregation to Vines, Patterson and N.C. pastors, post restricted access to by-law changes, post $500K loan from FBC to start a school, post promoting Israeli biomedical investors at the church with the choir there, and many others.
You say these are the "same old issues" and you are right. They still have not been addressed and are not going away. New issues continue to mount each week, if not each sermon.
And you want a name you say. Will that add credibility to my posts? Will I suddenly no longer be a coward? Well here it is: Voice of Reason's real name is Gerald Gerber. I go by Gerry. I have attended FBC Jax since 1979. :)
WD - you forgot to mention Micah's wise post from April 30, 12:16 a.m. where he states:
ReplyDelete"Besides that, it is a duty of the deacon to make sure things run smoothly, and they do have the authority to overrule something the pastor brings to the table if they so disagree."
ALL OF US KNOW, the deacons can not, and never must be allowed, to over rule the pastor "if they so disagree." This will give the deacons and the pastor a good chuckle. This kind of statement makes me wonder how much about the church Micah really knows.
Micah - too late. You have already revealed that "rumors" about why Doug Pigg left have reached your ears while you "walked the hallways" of FBC Jax. And already, other anons have come on here to tell you how awesome you are and to "Amen" your posts. It seems that this great "man of God" has been slandered and lied about by people at the church. Tell us, please. Why did you single him out when so many others had left also?
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, if he or anyone else was forced out for any reason, why was this not told to the congregation? Why was the word from the pulpit that EVERY one of these men were called elsewhere by almighty God?
To those of you who posted "Amen" to Micah, and who wrote that he speaks FACTS while the WD speaks lies, PLEASE come on and apologize. We will be waiting. :)
Mr. Gerber,
ReplyDeleteFor starters, you are dead on in what you have said. I may support Dr. Brunson, but, as I have shown, I can also say when I am wrong in things I say in support of him. Whether signing your name to your words is important or not, I would like to say that because you have signed your name, I respect you and will now respect what you have to say.
Youre right, I posted on here something as fact, which in reality were merely my own opinions. On the other hand, I still stand by everything else I have said, and would hardly call my words of Rev. Pigg "slander" as Watchdog has so coined them. Wrong as my words may be, what I did is no different from a great many posts by the creator of this site. That must be understood. I made an accusation from assumptions just as this blog makes accusations from assumptions. I can not prove what I said, nor can this blog prove the assumptions posted on it.
I will make this my last post and visit on the blog. I made a mistake, I have admitted that mistake...I do not wish to make any more. I realize that those who support the Pastor, do just as much criticizing as those who oppose him.
Micah
Voice of Reason says:
ReplyDeleteMicah - I hate to see you go. Your dialogue is good here. When information is not shared openly, it breeds some of this stuff.
I will say, hopefully before you go, that we are not just posting assumptions and wrong conclusions. See my prior post for a list of facts. Sure, we speculate about what those facts mean, but all the items listed did in fact happen. They were not guessed about. They happened.
Let me clarify one more time,
ReplyDeleteWhat I said of Doug Pigg was merely my own assumptions from observations. The "rumors" as someone has called them, were not rumors of WHY he left but simply THAT he left. As I said before, my posts are my OWN thoughts, my OWN ideas and my OWN assumptions. Ive heard from no one that he lied, hid things or whatever else I may have said. Which is why I left my follow up post stating that I stated some things as facts. My observations were simple: I heard one Sunday that Rev. Pigg was no longer on staff (nothing more than that), later I see new staff members being brought in and other staff members taking on new positions, but what finally led me to my assumption, of which I posted, was seeing two other ministers of the church address the congregation of their leaving. There was no inside information, and the "rumors" I heard were, once again, not about WHY he left but simply THAT he left. Ill say it again, my intention was not to single Rev. Pigg out, I have nothing against him. Nor was it to "slander" him. Also, once again, I truly hope that what I posted isn't true.
Micah
Micah - LOL. The "rumor" you heard that he left was TRUE. He did leave. Obviously, that was not a rumor, it was fact. Your attempts to backpedal now are sad and comical.
ReplyDeleteThere is no attempt to backpedal, I clearly have, several times, admitted my mistake, apologized for my hypocrisy of doing what I told another not too, stated my intentions and clarified what I said. As Christians, we are called to forgive another, are we not? I would expect that sense I was mature enough to own up to my mistakes that those of you who call yourselves Christians would have the maturity to forgive that mistake. Yet all I see is criticism and ridicule. Thats alright, I hold none of it against any one of you and I forgive you all. Now, some will respond to this, "You forgive us? You made the mistake!" I understand this and have admitted it. According to Scripture, if a brother in Christ seeks forgiveness, the family of believers is to forgive, and if they don't, judgment is no longer on the head of the man who did wrong, but on the heads of those who chose not to forgive. I cant justify what I said, all I can do is state what I meant and how I was able to say what I said.
ReplyDeleteAs to the Anon that laughed at my attempt of admission:
Sir or Maam, when I was said I heard "rumors", I wasn't talking about hearing them in the present time. As I have said before, I know no one on staff well enough to talk of such matters with, so at the time of Rev. Pigg's departure, the way I was made aware was by others in the church talking about it...AT THAT TIME, NOT NOW. I posted why I thought the reason of his leaving was, and clearly enough of you on here disagree with my conclusion to make me re-think what I said. I didn't know Rev. Pigg personally, but maybe some of you did, so I have to take you at your word. My post was never to slander, never to offend and never to cause confusion. I thought since everyone else on here attacks the Pastor's every move, decision and character, as well as having an in-depth knowledge of his intentions and motives, I could also freely speak my mind. Im not saying that some of your questions aren't legit, they may very well be, but if some one here can post what they think about the Pastor as fact, then I shouldn't come under such fire for what ive said. (In no way am I justifying what I previously posted)
So Anon 8:33, there is no backpedaling, but you read into what I say however you want, it makes no difference to me. Ive done the right thing in the situation I put myself in. Are you going to do the right thing?
I just found out that I WILL NOT BE RECEIVING a rebate check from the Economic Stimulus Package deal implemented by G.W.
ReplyDeleteThis is a real bummer. Money given to you by the government is a real treat and we all know that hardly ever happens.
I say OUT WITH THE IRS
and IN WITH THE FAIRTAX!
Voice of Reason, or shall I say Mr. Gerald Gerber, I am truly happy to see that you have decided to give your name. It shows integrity, character, backbone and most of all, it demonstrates that a man's word is far more credible when he chooses to stand by it.
My hat goes off to you sir for standing by your word.
Voice of Reason says:
ReplyDeleteRobert, why are you not getting your check?
Thanks for the kind words. Still, I prefer to post anonymously on this blog as I feel it keeps things from becoming too personal, as you and Micah have found out at times. :)
VOC,
ReplyDeleteBecause of the amount of people who read this blog (and the specific people who do read this blog), I will not go into detail. But basically I am a broke college student who still lives at home with my father. This is why I am not receiving a rebate check.
Well blogging can get personal as you said. But you are free to blog as you choose :)
Robert - tell dad to split the portion of the rebate he gets for having you as a dependent! :)
ReplyDeleteMight be enough to catch a movie or grab a pizza! Or maybe get 1/2 a tank of gasoline!
Tell me about it W!
ReplyDeleteIt takes over $60 dollars to fill up my Jeep Wrangler.
The thought of splitting the rebate did occur to me. I may see what I can negotiate with my "Dependor".
WD, now your just lying. I know I've posted here in the past and they never showed up. But here's my question (if you'll post it or choose not to ignore it) How do you see this ending? Once the questions get answers then what? When everyone finds out who you are? you know at that point you'll be made to leave... Or will there always be a "watchdog" and it will be passed down the line in your family? (Oh wait you don't believe in that)
ReplyDeletesigned,
Sheepdog
Sheepdog - oh there have been some that I haven't posted for sure, but very few. I've had some people share too much information that I didn't think appropriate to post, I've had a few very ugly posts about me, but I've never ever not posted something because I was trying to not allow pro-Brunson posters to express themselves, so that was my point.
ReplyDeleteInteresting you're using Sheepdog, as I know who has used that name before, and if you're who I think you are yes there were some of your posts that for your own benefit I chose not to post, but that's all I'll say on the matter. But I can say I've never intended to filter out pro-Brunson posts, or even those posts that were viciously anti-Watchdog.
The other questions, sorry no answers for you.
WHAT? Are you refusing to answer questions? And you called me a hipocrite? I guess we need a watchdog for the watchdog now. You've contradicted youself in the past but this one takes the cake. I guess we see the real you now...
ReplyDeleteNot refusing to answer questions. Just really don't have any answers for you for those questions.
ReplyDeleteGrow up will you?
You guys had better wake up and smell the roses...
ReplyDeleteMac has the votes on committees to do what he wants to do or he wouldn't be doing them. He's not stupid.
If you don't watch out your church will end up just like Two Rivers and you will be voted out.
Just a few observations from a Texan who knows Mac and knows Southern Baptists.
Good luck!
Micah, do not be suprised at WD completely dragging you through the mud. He does it to our pastor, we should not be suprised when he does it to fellow church members.
ReplyDeleteWD, it is your inablity to see the beam in your own eye that sickens me. In two sentences you can completely contradict yourself.
While dragging Micah through the mud and calling him stupid by name you quoted Micah and stated the following.
Micah "When someone does sign his name, he is immediately attacked and ridiculed. "
WD "Lie. Issues are discussed here. If you can't stand to have your ideas critiqued then don't post."
This is absurd.
I would just like to say that I found this website looking for information for the "Chest of Joash". I do not attend your church and have no idea of all that is taking place. However, I find the information and attitude of what you are doing sad. You have abandoned scripture and started your own witch hunt. Whatever happened to Matthew 18 when dealing with conflict. If you cannot support your pastor or speak to him directly about your problem you should find somewhere else to worship. He is God's man and if he is wrong or wicked then God will deal with him. God was handling His kingdom fine before us and He will continue to after us. I do not desire to be rude are judgemental. However, what you are doing on this blog is in violation of scripture and you should shut it down.
ReplyDeleteChris
Dublin, GA
I would just like to say that I found this website looking for information for the "Chest of Joash". I do not attend your church and have no idea of all that is taking place. However, I find the information and attitude of what you are doing sad. You have abandoned scripture and started your own witch hunt. Whatever happened to Matthew 18 when dealing with conflict. If you cannot support your pastor or speak to him directly about your problem you should find somewhere else to worship. He is God's man and if he is wrong or wicked then God will deal with him. God was handling His kingdom fine before us and He will continue to after us. I do not desire to be rude or judgemental. However, what you are doing on this blog is in violation of scripture and you should shut it down.
ReplyDeleteChris
Dublin, GA
What is it with the sensitivity to people posting here. Always whining about being attacked, having their names "dragged through the mud". I point out the factual misstatements of "Micah", pointing out that either he has breached confidentiality of personnel file info of Doug Pigg, or has slandered Doug Pigg...and Micah and Anon want to claim that they're being attacked, or being "dragged through the mud". Stop your whining, especially when you're coming here to post expect your words to criticized and critiqued just as all of my posts are, which is fine. Grow up, or stop posting here.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, you prove the point WD.
ReplyDeleteMicah, please contact me at your earliest convenience. Your courage to back up your words with your identity are noteworthy. I would love to speak with you in person.
fbcjaxbrother@yahoo.com
I have been reading this blog on and off for some time now and would like to share a few observations. I do have a past with FBC as I was a member there from the early 80’s until around 2003. So, my thoughts are based on actual experience.
ReplyDeleteFirst, there is no such thing as a perfect church or a perfect pastor. FBC is not a perfect church nor has it ever had a perfect pastor. As one of the former pastor’s used to comment, “If you ever find a perfect church, please don’t join it because you will ruin it.”
It seems that in a lot of churches, the congregation has the tendency to elevate their pastor (and sometimes even the associate pastors and staff) beyond the level of respect. Congregations can view their pastor almost as a god-like figure who can do no wrong. And when that happens, anyone who dares criticize the pastor is looked down on and treated as a traitor.
Pastors aren’t very good about staying humble. I have yet to see any pastor of a large church or a mega-church that did not have a large ego. You simply cannot attain the position of senior pastor of a big church without having a large ego. I don’t think this is unexpected when you keep in mind that most of these pastors are in the career building business. When have you ever seen a mega church pastor leave his post and take a small country church? I am sure someone, somewhere has, but by and large, a pastor will only leave a church to either move to a church of equal or larger size, or to retire and take speaking gigs around the country and on cruises, or to die.
One of the side effects of treating a particular pastor as god-like is that no one can live up to the perceived image that we have of the former pastor. When the new guy comes to town, he is going to change things. He will change staff, he will change the worship service, he will change the music, he will change the focus of the church, etc, etc. All of this is done to suit his way of doing things. (Some preachers are so bold as to call this his “vision”.) And the people of the church will say things like “well, we never did it like that before.” Or, “the music is too loud.”
One of the most frustrating things for me was to hear over and over from the pulpit that I am a “God called preacher, not a mama called preacher.” What chutzpah! Did he have a divine revelation like Paul did on the road to Damascus? Did a dove come down from heaven? Did the St. Johns River part and there was dry land with a path to 124 West Ashley Street? When a pastor asserts repeatedly that he is God’s man for this or that church, he builds up his own ego and he tends to convince more and more of the congregation that he is there because God looked high and low over all the earth and he was the only man found worthy to pastor this church.
You will do yourself a huge favor if you will keep in mind that being a pastor is a career opportunity, just like being a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a computer programmer, or a bus driver. Absolutely we should treat the pastor with respect, just like we should treat everyone we work with and for with respect. But he is a man, no better or worse that you and I, and no more divine than you or I.
Mac Brunson may not have known what his exact salary or benefits package was going to be, but he certainly knew what to expect. No church of the size of FBC Jacksonville would call a pastor and expect to pay him less than he is currently being paid. He will get a sizable raise. And, if he leaves FBC to go to another church, he will get an ever bigger salary.
When you become the pastor of a very big church, there are very big perks that come with it. Just like in the private sector. The typical career path of a successful business man leads to a bigger salary, bigger house, better cars, and on and on.
All of this became crystal clear when I left FBC and joined a much smaller church. For once I saw what it was to have a pastor with a true servant’s heart. For once I had the blessing of knowing my pastor personally. And I know exactly what his salary is because it is published in the yearly budget as a specific line item and not lumped together with all of the staff salaries. Transparency is a beautiful thing.
Keep the faith!
O.K., enough of the Micah bashing. He has apologized and no doubt asked God to forgive Him for repeating gossip. Christians fall into this snare of Satan every day. We have to constantly be on guard. My question to the Watchdog is: If you realized the information that was unfortunately repeated by Micah was unsubstantiated and was harmful to another person, why didn't you edit it out? Was it because in his own zeal to prove a point, Micah stooped down to the level in which you are currently living as you attempt to degrade your pastor with accusations of inappropriate behavior? Micah is correct when he says that you are doing basically the same thing he was guilty of doing. You are quick to point the finger at others, judging them, as you have certainly proven through your posting today. Your reactions when someone hits the nail on the head in your own life is amazing. By the way, if you are going to accuse others of lies, slander, and occasional stupidity, you might want to correct the incorrect spelling of occasional which you spelled as "occaisional" in the phrase of "occasional stupidy." That was just too funny! It's hard to be perfect, my friend.
ReplyDeleteNow that is funny! Thanks I did correct that misspelling.
ReplyDeleteSince everyone seems to want to keep bringing up Micah, including Micah himself, let's cut to the chase about what Micah said, and why its instructive to keep his posts on this blog:
I find it interesting that Micah TWICE stated emphatically...not that it might have been, not that HE THINKS Pigg was fired...he said TWO TIMES, even after Micah was challenged by me, he claimed IT WAS TRUTH. A person doesn't say that if they are assuming something to be true or guessing or drawing conclusions on observations. Micah didn't say "I think he may have been..." he said ITS TRUE. I find it very hard to believe that his statements about Pigg were not based on anything other sources he believes to be reliable, that Pigg was fired, else Micah wouldn't have stated so forcefully that he knew the truth about Pigg.
Look at what Micah said in his backpedaling:
"my words were merely my own assumptions and observations"
" I am able to admit a mistake and say that my assumption could very well be wrong. "
"I go as far as to say I hope very strongly that what I posted isn't true "
"I posted on here something as fact, which in reality were merely my own opinions"
I don't delete the posts about Doug Pigg because they are instructive to the readers of this blog. Its obvious to me, reading Micha's posts: that he heard from what he considers to be reliable sources, that Doug Pigg lied to the pastor, and that he was fired for cause.
So my question is, to which I know I won't get an answer...but the obvious question is: Who told Micah that Doug Pigg lied to the Pastor, and that the Pastor had to fire Doug Pigg? As I said yesterday: either its true and someone on staff has breached confidentiality that ultimately reached "Micah" in the form of credible information, or its false and someone is spreading lies about former staff members that reached Micah.
I'm willing to drop it Micah - just don't expect us to read your emphatic posts that you know the truth about Pigg and so many other things about how the church operates, then your retraction saying "its just my observations and I hope its not true" - and not think that you heard from reliable sources that Pigg was fired.
Not bashing Micah - just analyzing what he said and its relevance to this blog.
Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteThe buck in publishing slander about others in this blog lies with you. You are the blog author and moderator of this group. You are ultimately responsible for all slander and items published about others and their lives, including highly personal information. The responsibility to edit inappropriate postings belongs exclusively to you. No wonder you won't reveal your identity! You could be held legally responsible for the harm you are bringing to others through this blog, not to mention your accountability to God and your fellow church members and Christians. You, too, are responsible for your actions, especially when they involve the reputation of another person. Remember your nasty little attack on Ed Young, Jr. and his mental state? That was a low blow - he's not even your pastor and you ripped him without even knowing him or his ministry. Your treatment of the people who kindly corrected inaccurate information published by you about First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas was questionable behavior on your part. You certainly told them they were unwelcome to post on this group. No one is attacking you or judging you, refuting your accusations is the only way we can attempt to "edit" or question your many inaccurate thoughts on subjects that don't amount to a hill of beans in the face of eternity. Obviously, as you have stated, you wish all who disagree with you would just go away and leave you to sit on the pew wallowing in your misery with your friends. By the way, I don't think anyone has ever called you stupid or accused you of stupidity as you did your fellow Christians. Now that is just NOT nice, kind, or loving. Are you capable of exerting your maturity and rising above such pettiness? Why don't you raise the level of your blog up a notch or two?
You need to get real. And you need to get your fact straight.
ReplyDeleteIf I slander anyone on this blog, or allow anyone else to slander someone by allowing them to post, it matters not whether I am anonymous as my identity can certainly be obtained through the authorities and local internet service providers so that I can be sued and forced to remove said slanderous information.
You mischaracterize my post about Ed Young Jr.'s video blog. That post of mine in no way questioned his "mental state"...it was commentary on the image that he provided about how tough he had it as a pastor. He's a public figure with a public video blog and thus I can comment all I want about his blog.
No clue what you mean about treatment of FBC Dallas people. I let them speak their minds. I have no bone to pick with FBC Dallas people.
You say no one is attacking or judging me...did I say I cared if I am judged or attacked? I don't care! This blog is set up to discuss the abuses of Mac Brunson at FBC Jax. I fully expect people to attack what I say, and I don't get upset about it or whine about it. But I will defend what I say, like I'm doing now with you. Defending myself, commenting on someone else's words, is not attacking or judging.
You say "Obviously, as you have stated, you wish all who disagree with you would just go away and leave you to sit on the pew wallowing in your misery with your friends". I don't want those who disagree to go away! I welcome all posters. I do tell people if this blog is bothering them they can leave and not come back and that won't bother me - but to tell me to shut the blog down or that I should get a life or such - my response is - don't come back if you don't like this blog. Or start your own blog about me or about Mac Brunson or FBC Jax.
Not sure if anyone has called me stupid. Satan - yes. Slander and gossiper - yes. Beelzebub - yes. Stupid - not sure.
Don't be so thin-skinned. Address the issues raised on the blog.
And if I'm committing slander, please get a lawyer and find out who the blogger is and get this blog shut down and sue me.
Just curious, Watchdog...
ReplyDeleteI know you have a lot of time on your hands for the blog; however, are you taking the time to follow what is going on in the economy?
rm - the situation at Two Rivers is not a concern to me. If you follow that closely, you will see many of the same abuses and problems that we are having here. You will also see that financial records were in fact released and hundreds of "corrections" had to be made. Once a pastor is allowed to operate without accountability to those that give the money, then a full scale TRBC scenario is imminent. Is our pastor and staff wise enough to avoid that here? If not, be sure similar lawsuits will be filed here in Jax.
ReplyDeleteAnd what did it gain those 600 people to "put their names on it", nothing, they are being attacked and forced out. Calling them cowards or chicken is often just a means of getting their names so you can "get rid of them." Not a whole lot to gain by giving your name to some of these zealots.
WD - we should be hearing from one of the Pigg family members any day now. If not on this blog, than to your private email that is posted on your profile... I am sure at least one of them will wish to defend their family name.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog:
ReplyDeleteMrs. Lindsay died this afternoon from a fall. She suffered a head injury and severe bleeding.
Everyone please pray for the Lindsay family and that God will give consolation to each member according to their need.
Shirley was a kind and gracious lady. She now joins her husband, son, parents, and in-laws and what a reunion they must be having in heaven right about now.
Just like Homer Lindsay (both of them), there will never be another Shirley. She was one of a kind.
Voice of Reason says:
ReplyDeleteThis is indeed sad news. She will be missed. One of the true saints of God who, like her husband, reflected a very close and very real walk with her Lord. I agree, there will never be another like her.
Since I'm not a member of this congregation, I don't really have a dog in this hunt. I've just come across this sight and am amazed at its content. How does this blog embody Matthew 18? If a brother offends you, you should go to him, not blog about him. How does it embody 1 Timothy 5? I just don't understand why this blog even exists.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, Watchdog, how does this site honor Jesus as Lord? Even if there were some perfect pastor out there, would it help if he were to pastor your church? It appears that the problem is closer than the pulpit. Forgive me for being direct, but I fear for your sanctification - for your walk with Christ if you can't let this critical spirit go. I pray that you will see that - at the end of the day - it's not "Pastor Mac's" reputation that's at stake here but the reputation of Christ and His church. How does this site represent Him and those who claim to follow Him - especially to those who are outside the household of faith? Please, stop.
Strange how many folks claim to just happen upon this blog and feel strongly enough to comment on matters they know nothing of.
ReplyDeleteI agree with anon 9:09. What made the people of FBC vote in Mac? Was it because he was the only person on earth that God could use there or was it because a committee found him at another mega church and decided that he was called to FBC Jax? I don't know for sure. I do know and agree that he has one HUGE ego. When he first came I couldn't stand his preaching style. I thought he was way too much to take and I'm so tired of him yelling at people when they should "Amen!" He seems to have given that up some, but I remember when he first came and used to tell us that we were "dead" and needed to "wake up and say Amen!"
ReplyDeleteAnd one last thing - why can't FBC publish a true financial statement? Is there somewhere to go to find his salary? It seems like it has to be against the law to not have the salaries posted for a nonprofit organization. Does anyone know how they get away with that??
In response to many posts on here asking why I came to certain conclusions about Rev. Pigg:
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I have many times admitted that what I said was a mistake. There is no need for the Pigg family to defend themselves because I do not attack them. In my admission posts, I said that I was wrong in what I said, that I hoped that what I said wasn't true and that I wish nothing but the best for the Pigg family.
My original post was out of simple immaturity on my part. I saw things being said that I vehemently disagreed with and rushed to action before stopping to think. When posting my original comments, my intention was in no way to attack Rev. Pigg, but they were simply to defend our Pastor, but more importantly to defend our church and its members from seeming naive by voting Dr. Brunson as Pastor.
I did the wrong on my own. I am not upset about being "dragged through the mud". I dont even see that I have been, but rather, confronted about something I was clearly wrong about. I will even go as far to say that I'm glad Watchdog has done what hes done. The Bible speaks clearly to the Christian about refusing correction and instruction. I, in no way, desire to be immature in this area again and make another mistake.
Let me wrap up with one more thing, what I said about Rev. Pigg was honestly from my own assumptions. I do not know anyone on staff well enough to talk about such matters, so there was no breach of confidentiality in any way. I keep saying this because I do not wish for my mistake to be attached to another. Seeing as how Rev. Pigg and his family were so loved at the church, if any sort of situation like what I said had happened, or even gray on any area, I am sure that that information would never be let out to those who loved him. So Watchdog, I hope that answers your suspicions of how I was able to say what I said. It was nothing more than my temper getting the best of me, and at some point, we all say things we regret. Those comments I made are certainly ones I regret making.
To those of you who do not agree with things said on this blog, do not attack those who do. Do not attack those who post on here, Watchdog and most importantly, learn from my mistake and do not say a word against those who are not involved with this blog. The Bible says God is love and Christ tells us that the world will know we are His by our love. My comments of another were not out of love, but immaturity and a quick temper, and for that I have apologized and sought a new attitude. So to those who post in disagreement of this blog, seek an attitude of love, rather than having the attitude to attack another because they disagree with what you think.
This is a formal apology to Watchdog and to those I attacked, offended and lied too. Its also a thanking, I believe I have been shown an immaturity or weakness that I am overcoming only through Gods forgiveness, mercy and grace.
No matter what, keep growing and maturing. Dont ever think you have all the answers, because you never know who can teach you a lesson.
Micah
WD, we seldom agree on the issues raised here, but today my heart is very burdend. I know it's not the purpose of this blog, but can we put aside the "issues" today and focus on the life of Ms. Lindsay? There's no doubt she was a sweet Godly woman that loved FBC and was an example to us all. Can you please write a special blog in her honor so the rest of us can pay our respects here? It would be a chance for you to show us a side of you we haven't seen before here...compassion. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your sentiments about Mrs. Lindsay. She was an incredible woman and example for so many over the years.
ReplyDeleteTo express sentiments about Mrs. Lindsay and to the family I would recommend going to the Times Union obituary section guest book. As of this writing, Mrs. Lindsay's guest book is not open, but I am quite certain that it will be in the next 24 hours, and people post their expressions of love and sympathy there.
Here's the link to the Times Union guest book:
Times Union Obit Guest Book
I was wondering if you guys could take a break from your blog for awhile as the church mourns the loss of Mrs. Lindsay. This the content of an email I received written by Aaron Tison.
ReplyDelete"Mrs. Lindsay fell at her home and suffered devastating brain damage. Peggy and Lynn Hyatt were present when she fell. She was rushed to Shands Jacksonville Trauma Unit, but it was determined that there was nothing that could be done to save Mrs. Lindsay’s life. The family was supported at the hospital by Dr. Brunson, several staff members and many friends. At around 10:15 PM Mrs. Lindsay entered the presence of her loving Father and Beloved Savior. Please be in prayer for the family as they mourn. They are sorrowful…yet rejoicing. Funeral details are pending and will be announced as soon as they are set.
I hope that we have the funeral details today but PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND as I will send the Funeral details on Saturday.
Aaron Tison x1365"
Thanks
Steve W
My condolences on the passing of your beloved first lady. Not trying to butt in or tell "watchdog" what to do, but it would be a nice thing to do should he feel led. However, why would you have to end an otherwise good comment with this swipe at "watchdog"?
ReplyDelete"It would be a chance for you to show us a side of you we haven't seen before here...compassion."
Obviously you have no compassion for him.
If it came across as a swipe at WD, then I apologize. That was not my intent. I just wanted to point out it was an opportunity he may not have thought about. That’s all. I hope WD didn’t take it that way.
ReplyDeleteOh, so that is the connection between Troy Leaver and the Watchdog. The sentiments are clear now that the association is.
ReplyDeleteAll other matters you have with Mac Brunson aside, I am here to tell you that the land he lives on is a gift. Free and Clear. Period.
ReplyDeleteA 100% no obligation, no ties gift.
Taxes paid by both the giver and Brunson.
I know these statements to be 100% fact.
Anon 2:56pm,
ReplyDeleteI see nothing wrong with this and completely believe you. But you know FBCW and company still...disaprove of the whole issue. They will still find fault and degrade the pastor with this issue in the same ole way they always have. Nothing new, nothing old. Just the same whining and griping.
Robert,
ReplyDeleteObviously the verse 1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil." means absolutely nothing to you.
Also, voice of reason...I must commend you for your bravery sir. Now that you have revealed your identity for Team Brunson to see I ask that you please keep us up to date on what Stalinistic tactics Team Brunson uses to try to silence and intimidate you.
How does receiving a gift or a blessing from the Lord appear to be evil?
ReplyDeleteHow is receiving anything from the Lord evil?
Explain this one Ghost.
My question, which is only a question, is what was wrong about the Stand for Israel being held at the church? I thought it was almost a great thing done by the church to show their support for Israel. I dont want to come off as preachy but with Israel being Gods chosen people, shouldn't we as Christians support them in any and every way possible?
ReplyDelete"Watchdog" can you tell me what happened or took place that shouldn't have or why it wasn't good for the church to host it or how it wasn't support? Thank you and my prayers are with you all during this hard time concerning the loss of Mrs. Lindsay. She truly was a great woman of God and now she is with our Lord and once again with Dr. Lindsay.
Robert - need to get a few things straight:
ReplyDelete1. This poster boldly declaring the land was a gift is nothing new - we've known that, its a matter of public record.
2. no one is saying that its "evil". That scripture Ghost is quoting is giving the principle that we as Christians should avoid the appearance of doing things that might be perceived as improper.
3. Mac Brunson was not given the gift "from the Lord". I checked the deed, and sure enought "the Lord" is not on the deed. I hate to be so unspiritual, but I'll go out on a limb here and state emphatically: "the Lord" is not in the business of giving land gifts to pastors, especially wealthy pastors earning well into six figures. Now it was given by a certain person whose name is on the deed: "Collins". That is the giver. Not "the Lord".
4. For gifts to be given, they must be received. So there is a giver and a receiver. Not all gifts that are given MUST be received. A gift can be refused. The recipient of a gift is not a passive participant or observer. They must make a willful decision: do I accept this gift or do I not.
5. There are plenty of instances when accepting a gift is wrong, or at least we can say "unwise". Most businesses have strict rules on what kinds and sizes of gifts employees can accept from outside parties such as customers, vendors, agencies, etc. Companies always want employees to avoid even the appearance that a gift given to them could affect the employee's ability to always act in the best interests of the company. So most employees can accept only token gifts like a coffee cup, or maybe a pair of tickets to a ball game, or something like that, and the gifts above a certain dollar amount must usually be disclosed. I'll go out on a limb again and say emphatically: $300,000 gifts of land are out of the question in most corporate circumstances.
6. As far as gifts and churches: it certainly can be perceived by people in the church and outside the church, when a minister accepts a very large gift from one of the donors of the church, that the gift is improper. Especially, ESPECIALLY, when the pastor already is earning a hefty salary already far and above the average salary of the members of the church. Many will perceive the gift as being better spent on the church ministries and not on the pastor of the church personally. Many times in smaller churches pastors make ends meet by the generosity of a member who provides a vehicle, or something else to help the pastor. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a wealthy mega church preacher, accepting a $300,000 gift not from a long time friend, not from a church member who was blessed by Mac for years and years.
7. Mac's case is quite peculiar. I've heard plenty of times a long-time pastor being given gifts by parishioners or even the church itself for expressions of love after years of faithful service (even Jeremiah Wright, who is being given a multi-million dollar home by his church, served faithfully at that church for decades and built the church himself). But its extremely odd for a pastor to show up and within two weeks he is given, and he accepts, a $300,000 gift from a donor of the church. That looks less like a gift and more like a relo package. Mac Brunson and family are making a huge salary at the church, and accepting a gift of $300,000 from one of the donors of the church was not a wise move, especially when they had been here only a few weeks. They MUST know that this opens them up to scrutiny and second guessing, especially when the gift, if its of the Lord's doing, is not shared and celebrted with the church family. Can they be surprised now to know that there are some that are critical of them accepting that gift?
8. This practice of gifts going directly to a pastor instead of the church 501(c)3 organization that he is head of, is one of the practices that Senator Grassley is investigating televangelists for. Randy and Paula White for example, are being investigated over, among many other things, $43,000 in gifts that were given directly to them by the congregation one month. Again, it goes to the fact that Mac has a responsibility to act in the best interests of the church in these matters - and accepting a gift of $300,000 from a donor 2 weeks after he arrives, while he already is getting a hefty salary and all needs met through the church budget, is a poor decision. He COULD HAVE refused it, he could have recommended it be sold and given to the church. Now perhaps he's like Spurgeon, and he took the value of the land and gave it to missionaries and to FBC Jax in its entirety and someday he'll be vindicated as Spurgeon was. But I maintain a new pastor, coming to a new town, to a church that already has a reputation of being a church of the rich, makes an unwise move in accepting that gift. Period.
9. When a large gift like that is accepted, it leads to other subsequent decisions the pastor makes being questioned. For instance, on the Sunday prior to Easter Mac Brunson aired a professionally made "commercial" for Collins Home Builders during our service, and which also aired on TV-12 the following Sunday to the local Jacksonville market. Of course there was a spiritual reason for the commercial, to show that Collins Home Builders took a leap of faith in closing their business on Sundays as a matter of Christian principle - they are to be commended for that. That is great. But the owners of Collins Home Builders are the sons of the man who gave the $300,000 gift to the Brunsons. Not saying its quid-pro-quo - I AM SAYING there is an APPEARANCE of quid-pro-quo. An "Appearance".
And that takes me full circle Robert back to the scripture Ghost quoted for you:
"Abstain from all appearance of evil."
Hi Anon - thanks for your question about the Time to Stand with Israel.
ReplyDeleteThere was nothing wrong with the event itself, as I have stated.
I was against it being hosted at our church, for a whole multitude of reasons. Take a look at my posts in October and November 2007 where I made the case that this event had no business whatsoever being held at our church. You can access these by clicking on the little arrows on the archived section on the right side of the blog page.
After you read those, I would genuinely like to hear back from you on your thoughts.
As a non-member of FBC Jax, but a person raised in a very small, rural Baptist Church, I must tell you that this type of behavior on the part of Mac Brunson is the reason I no longer attend church.
ReplyDeleteOur preacher(s) were not paid well by any stretch of the imagination. They stayed at our small church because they truly loved the Lord and wanted to bring as many people to Him as possible. One of our preachers could barely afford a car. Of course, many of our members were struggling, also. I imagine that there are members of FBC Jax that are struggling...how must it make them feel to know that Mac is living such a lavish lifestyle? How must it make them feel when he asks for money for a school that they cannot afford to send their children to, while living on land donated to him and his family, that could have been donated to the school to make tuition more affordable for the average member?
The average member of Jeremiah Wright's former church is surely struggling, as well, yet the church has secured a $1.6 million dollar mortgage for his retirement home, with a $10 million line of credit. There seems to be a parallel to this situation, and that is sad.
Ghost, please notice that you quoted scripture and basically assumed that it meant nothing to Robert. Then you followed that by comparing our Pastor to Stalin.
ReplyDeleteYour buddy followed by an "explanation" how a gift appears evil because his legalistic line deems it thus. WD actually said that since the deed reads Collins it can't be from God. WD believes that God can't move men to give.
And you guys call us stupid.
Keep up the good work WD and Ghost!
This is laughable.
As a non-member of FBC Jax, but a person raised in a very small, rural Baptist Church, I must tell you that this type of behavior on the part of Mac Brunson is the reason I no longer attend church.
ReplyDeleteWhat, that he makes a salary? That's about the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
Voice of Reason says:
ReplyDeleteHey Anon May 2, 2008 - 6:40 p.m. - you make a good point that is right on and needs to be applied equally across the board. You stated that since even though the land was from Collins, it could still be from God, since God works through men. (I hope I have understood you correctly.) I agree with you 100%. Therefore, when people keep saying that Mac Brunson is "accountable to God", I say, Amen, but God aint walking around here right now, and instead he uses men. So by your logic, Mac is accountable to God, which is to say, he is accountable to the men God has put here to keep him accountable. Saying that a pastor is accountable only to God is not true. He is accountable to his wife, his children, his tax collector, local law enforcement, the committees he serves on, and to the sheep he claims to have been called to shepherd.
It is good to see that some "close" supporters of Mac have finally attempted to get on here and spin things a little more favorably to their "pastor." Why do I say this? Because the responses seem to come from brainwashed people first of all, and second, there seems to be a lot of anons suddenly "knowing things for a fact." Such as about Doug Pigg and the fact the land was a gift.
Still, I am not taking some anon blogger's word for it. Until Mac Brunson is man enough to explain this "gift from God" to his congregation, it will be a legitmate topic for discussion and speculation as to the nature of it, and timing of it.
So keep on laughing boys, your efforts to "explain things" are obviously weak and deficient and are only getting you deeper and deeper into a mess you can't dig out of.
If I was on the search committee I would really be ticked off. Why? Because Dr. Vines had hand picked Mac Brunson and asked to come on board a year before your charade of a committee was formed. Then, David Allen, who was on the committee that brought Paige Patterson to SWBTS and who PP then gave the Dean position to as a quid pro quo, came and bragged about the pillar moving and God leading a man here when HE KNEW ALL along the man that he and Paige Patterson and Vines had picked all along was coming to Jax. Just like they used to do when picking SBC Convention presidents, the "big boys" meet behind closed doors and decided it was going to be Mac Brunson.
ReplyDeleteBut, to make sure you gullible sheep would not and could not object, they actually formed a committee of some of the sweetest, most respected members of the church to "pray about" who GOD would have them call. Guess what, they ALL decided it was going to be...drumroll please....MAC BRUNSON. Still, he told them no, but guess what. Something changed his mind. We can only speculate as to what that was.
Think about it...it would make me feel pretty stupid and used if I was asked to serve on a committee and pray for God to lead me and I ended up picking the same guy Vines and Patterson and Allen had conspired to pick all along. Shame and embarrassment would be mixed in there too. Great job committee. Now, you are forced to support him no matter what now too! Does the term "rubber stamp" committee mean anything to you? Keep on supporting him. You would never want to admit that you were a sham all along. I could be wrong of course, but it sure seems very, very possible. And yes, I was part of it when I stood to my feet and gave him and his wife a standing ovation with my "yes" vote.
Hey Watchdog - any word from Reverend Doug Pigg yet? Maybe he knows who "Micah Stapp" is.
ReplyDeleteWe're still rejoicing in Dallas that you have him and we don't.
ReplyDeleteHey Michah - quit apologizing. LET GOD VINDICATE YOU!
ReplyDeleteMicah,
ReplyDeleteLET IT GO! You just keep beating the same dead horse. The actions of our pastor cannot be justified by you or anyone else. He has come to FBC to get whatever he can, collect as many paychecks as possible (his, his wife's, his son's) and then leave the mess for us to pick up. Just let him do it in peace while giving us a few (and I do mean a few) good sermons in the process.
Secrecy is how things function at FBC. You can't and don't know any more than anyone else. It's the culture of the place. When things do eventually blow up, we will need as many dedicated members as possible to help clean up the mess. Save your energy for then, ok?
If you look at the vast vast majority of these mega church pastors you will find they all have the same character traits. I know most of them personally so please don't accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about.
ReplyDeleteThey also pastor large churches that basically operate by committees and you aren't going to change that. People don't give up power easily. The best (and only) way you are going to change anything is get elected to these committees and change it from the inside out. All the yelling and screaming isn't going to help.
In Texas we have Prestonwood BC and noone in that church could tell you what Jack Graham makes--and they never will. They just go on about doing the work of the Lord and trust God to take care of Jack and His church.
Its pathetic but its just the way it is... I'd say if you can't stand it, find a good church somewhere and go there and serve Jesus.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAs a non-member of FBC Jax, but a person raised in a very small, rural Baptist Church, I must tell you that this type of behavior on the part of Mac Brunson is the reason I no longer attend church.
What, that he makes a salary? That's about the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
NO, NOT that he makes a salary. Obviously, you did not get my point. I find it objectionable that this man lives the lifestyle he does, on DONATED property, and has the gall to ask for $500k for this school, the tuition for which will be out of reach for the majority of your congregation! Could he not have asked that the land be sold, with the proceeds then donated for the benefit of the school??
Of course he should draw a salary. The responsibilities of presiding over so large a church are large. I'm not "DUMB", I just find the man and his actions hypocritical.
Robert said to me...
ReplyDelete"How does receiving a gift or a blessing from the Lord appear to be evil?
How is receiving anything from the Lord evil?
Explain this one Ghost."
WD beat me to this a little bit in explaining why this gift appears shady, and I would like to elaborate a little more from a different angle-by looking at the giver-J.D. Collins.
Perhaps some of the confusion comes from people not knowing who J.D. Collins is. For those of you who do not know, J.D. Collins is a local real estate developer who is very powerful in the City of Jacksonville. He has a very long track record of giving money to politicians in Jacksonville and throughout the state. J.D. Collins has over 20 Corporations through which he donates money to political campaigns. Campaign contributions can be searched through at the State of Florida Campaign Web Site (http://election.dos.state.fl.us/campfin/contrib.asp#com) or the City of Jacksonville Campaign Reports (https://www.voterfocus.com/ws/WScand/candidate_pr.php?e=2&c=duval). I will not bother to list all of J.D. Collins' corporations but they all are listed under the address 3840 Crown Point Road Suite A ,Jacksonville, FL 32257.
For those of you who do not wish to search through contributions I have searched through many of them myself and will list his political contributions from the last election cycle for the City of Jacksonville.
In the 2007 election cycle J.D. Collins made the following political donations to candidates in Jacksonville...
Mayor John Peyton-$10,000
Supervisor of Elections,Jerry Holland-$15,000
City Councilman At Large Group 1, Ronnie Fussell-$10,000
Candidate for City Council at Large Group 2, Jay Jabour-$7,500
Candidate for City Council At Large Group 3, Stephen Joost-$5,000
City Councilman at Large Group 4, Kevin Hyde-$5,000
City Councilwoman At Large Group 5, Glorious Johnson-$1,000
Candidates for City Council District 1:
Clay Yarborough-$1,500
Cheryl Grymes-$1,000
City Councilman District 3, Richard Clark-$5,000
Candidates for City Council District 4:
George Banks-$500
Don Redman-$7,000
City Councilman District 5, Art Shad-$5,000
Candidates for City Council District 6:
Jack Webb-$1,500
Sean Richard-$4,000
Candidate for City Council District 7, Johnny Gaffney-$1,500
Candidate for City Council District 8, E. Denise Lee-$5,000
Candidate for City Council District, Warren Jones-$1,000
Candidate for City Council District10, Mia Jones-$2,500
Candidates for City Council District 11:
Ray Holt-$1,000
Mike Saylor-$1,000
City Councilman District 12, Daniel Davis-$10,000
City Councilman District 13, Art Graham-$5,000
City Councilman District 14, Michael Corrigan-$5,000
You may say, what does this have to do with our church? While I apologize for the long listI wanted to make a point that J.D. Collins has a long history (this is only from one election cycle!) of making donations to people to whom he wants something in return. There is no correlation in his giving in regard to political party/ideology as he gave generously to Democrats Johnny Gaffney, Mia Jones, Denise Lee, and Warren Jones( when Warren had a Republican opponent). He even in FOUR RACES gave money to multiple candidates in the SAME RACE to ensure that he had his bases covered no matter who won (see Council Districts 1, 4, 6, and 11).
So, Robert, you claim that this land gift to Pastor Brunson was a "gift from the Lord." I ask, were these donations of over 100,000 dollars to local candidates in one election cycle also gifts from the Lord? I personally don't see how anyone could claim that over 100,000 dollars in political donations is a gift from the Lord. What makes the gift to Mac any different? How do the Brunson supporters know that Mac is not expected to give J.D. Collins something in return, just as he expects every politician at City Hall to be indebted to him? We have already seen a commercial played during the morning service advertising for Collins...what's next? Could new buildings or building improvements contracted through J.D. Collins be far off?
Also, I found another very interesting tidbit when I Googled J.D. Collins name. We all know that it was Jacksonville's Supervisor of Elections Jerry Holland was one of three church members who leaked to the media that Mac Brunson was going to be our new pastor (http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/021006/met_21059743.shtml). I discovered a Folio Weekly article from 2000 (http://www.treeamendment.org/med10242000foliofallcolors.html alt ) that states:
“J.D. Collins is more than just another powerful developer to Jacksonville City Councilman Jerry Holland. He’s an underwriter.
Not only does Collins help pay Holland’s mortgage (his wife, Beverly Holland, is an executive officer in more than 12 Collins corporations, and Holland himself used to work for Collins), but the powerful builder also subsidized a fair chunk of Holland’s council bid in 1998. Collins, through his numerous businesses, gave 18 donations of $500 each - $9,000 - to Holland’s campaign coffers.”
This shows a link between Jerry Holland and J.D. Collins that I did not know existed. How did Jerry Holland know that Mac Brunson was coming to FBC? Could it be that he found out through his wife who works for J.D. Collins because the J.D. Collins land deal was what enticed Mac Brunson to come to Jacksonville in the first place? So again the question First Baptist Church of Jacksonville deserves an answer to is Did Mac Brunson know about this $300,000 land gift before he accepted the job as Pastor of First Baptist Church Jacksonville? This is a question that our church deserves an answer to, and yes Robert we will keep on "whining and griping" until it is eventually answered.
Congregation - watch out, next thing you know you will be getting a letter from Mac Brunson asking you to give AGAIN to another specific, worthwhile ministry. DON'T BE FOOLED. He knows he can't send you a letter asking for money for his and Debbie's and Trey's salaries, so he takes the money for that without asking you. But then he asks for more money for things you would think were already funded, like camp tuition which is $205 per student. When you see that letter, just change in your mind whatever ministry he says its for and replace it with "my big salary and benefits" and let God guide you. An honest letter would say:
ReplyDelete"Dear Gullible rich sheep who are not effected by the housing slump, high gas prices, rising food prices, and higher health premiums. I have a $14 million budget which you have already "given to God" from which I must operate the church. That is not enough! I need more to pay all of the salaries, take all the "missions trips", loan money to the new school, and do pretty much whatever else I want to do since I "God's man." I want more money from you, so I have sent this letter to all 25,000 of you at great expense. I also want to pay some people (not all the volunteers) generously who will work at the camp. So please sacrifice some more and write a check to FBC Jax and trust me with it. Thanks. Debbie Brunson and Mac and Trey.
OR Why not a letter that states: Team Brunson's combined salary is close to $500,000.00 per year. Your $205 gift (we say it is for the camps), if only 10% of the congregation gave this amount would be 2500 X $205 = $512,500. Then I could say "we raised" that much this year, and our salaries would be paid by writing one letter. See how easy it is to "raise" money for our salaries so we can still do the ministries that are so important and still get paid the big bucks. So, Dig Deep! signed, God's man.