UPDATE: Here is link to audio of Mac's sermon where he included a commercial for the Collins Homebuilders in the middle of his March 16, 2008 sermon. Its about 5 MB, so might take a minute to download. Notice after his very emotional description of Jesus in the Garden, and how Jesus trusted God when God's plan didn't make sense at the time, Mac transitions into the current day example of trusting God in how the Collins boys decided to close their sales offices on Sundays. You'll of course only hear the audio of the commercial here, but it was a very professional piece that was done - I guess by our own media resources at the church, but very nicely done and edited. Again, this company is owned by the sons of the man who gifted Mac Brunson the $307,000 lot in Deerwood. Not saying this is quid-pro-quo...just giving you the facts and I'll let YOU decide. Since Mac included this commercial smack dab in the middle of his sermon, it was broadcast in the local Jacksonville TV market the following Sunday in HD on TV-12.
Thank you to poster "Ghost" for the following article on the infamous $307,000 "land gift" that our pastor accepted just weeks after arriving in Jacksonville ...those of you visiting this site for the first time, let me get you caught up before you read the "Ghost Post" article below on this gift.
Just weeks after arriving to Jacksonville to be our new pastor, Mac Brunson, accepted a land gift worth $307,000 - a 1/2 acre plot located in exclusive, gated development known as "Deerwood" in Jacksonville, Florida. Here is a link to the property record in the City of Jacksonville property appraisor website. The home and land is valued at over $1 million, making Mac one of the most lavish-living pastors in Jacksonville. This land gift was never disclosed and explained to the congregation, and questions of who on the search committee knew of this gift offer and when Mac Brunson knew of this gift still remain.
When did Mac accept this land gift? Mac preached his first sermon as pastor of FBC Jacksonville on April 9, 2006. The deed for the land transfer was executed on May 1, 2006, just 3 weeks after the Brunsons arrived in Jacksonville. The deed shows that the gift was given for "love and affection". Click here to see the deed for yourself. The construction on their 5200 square foot, 6 bedroom 4.5 bath home began in July 2006.
Now for the Ghost article:
-----------------------------------
Perhaps some of the confusion comes from people not knowing who J.D. Collins is. For those of you who do not know, J.D. Collins is a local real estate developer who is very powerful in the City of Jacksonville. He has a very long track record of giving money to politicians in Jacksonville and throughout the state. J.D. Collins has over 20 Corporations through which he donates money to political campaigns. Campaign contributions can be searched through at the State of Florida Campaign Web Site or the City of Jacksonville Campaign Reports . I will not bother to list all of J.D. Collins' corporations but they all are listed under the address 3840 Crown Point Road Suite A ,Jacksonville, FL 32257.
For those of you who do not wish to search through contributions I have searched through many of them myself and will list his political contributions from the last election cycle for the City of Jacksonville. In the 2007 election cycle J.D. Collins made the following political donations to candidates in Jacksonville:
Mayor John Peyton-$10,000
Supervisor of Elections,Jerry Holland-$15,000
City Councilman At Large Group 1, Ronnie Fussell-$10,000
Candidate for City Council at Large Group 2, Jay Jabour-$7,500
Candidate for City Council At Large Group 3, Stephen Joost-$5,000
City Councilman at Large Group 4, Kevin Hyde-$5,000
City Councilwoman At Large Group 5, Glorious Johnson-$1,000
Candidates for City Council District 1:Clay Yarborough-$1,500 Cheryl Grymes-$1,000
City Councilman District 3, Richard Clark-$5,000
Candidates for City Council District 4:George Banks-$500
Don Redman-$7,000
City Councilman District 5, Art Shad-$5,000
Candidates for City Council District 6: Jack Webb-$1,500, Sean Richard-$4,000
Candidate for City Council District 7, Johnny Gaffney-$1,500
Candidate for City Council District 8, E. Denise Lee-$5,000
Candidate for City Council District, Warren Jones-$1,000
Candidate for City Council District10, Mia Jones-$2,500
Candidates for City Council District 11:Ray Holt-$1,000, Mike Saylor-$1,000
City Councilman District 12, Daniel Davis-$10,000
City Councilman District 13, Art Graham-$5,000
City Councilman District 14, Michael Corrigan-$5,000
You may say, what does this have to do with our church? While I apologize for the long listI wanted to make a point that J.D. Collins has a long history (this is only from one election cycle!) of making donations to people to whom he wants something in return. There is no correlation in his giving in regard to political party/ideology as he gave generously to Democrats Johnny Gaffney, Mia Jones, Denise Lee, and Warren Jones (when Warren had a Republican opponent). He even in FOUR RACES gave money to multiple candidates in the SAME RACE to ensure that he had his bases covered no matter who won (see Council Districts 1, 4, 6, and 11).
So, Robert, you claim that this land gift to Pastor Brunson was a "gift from the Lord." I ask, were these donations of over 100,000 dollars to local candidates in one election cycle also gifts from the Lord? I personally don't see how anyone could claim that over 100,000 dollars in political donations is a gift from the Lord. What makes the gift to Mac any different? How do the Brunson supporters know that Mac is not expected to give J.D. Collins something in return, just as he expects every politician at City Hall to be indebted to him? We have already seen a commercial played during the morning service advertising for Collins...what's next? Could new buildings or building improvements contracted through J.D. Collins be far off?
Also, I found another very interesting tidbit when I Googled J.D. Collins name. We all know that it was Jacksonville's Supervisor of Elections Jerry Holland was one of three church members who leaked to the media that Mac Brunson was going to be our new pastor. I discovered a Folio Weekly article from 2000 that states: “J.D. Collins is more than just another powerful developer to Jacksonville City Councilman Jerry Holland. He’s an underwriter. Not only does Collins help pay Holland’s mortgage (his wife, Beverly Holland, is an executive officer in more than 12 Collins corporations, and Holland himself used to work for Collins), but the powerful builder also subsidized a fair chunk of Holland’s council bid in 1998. Collins, through his numerous businesses, gave 18 donations of $500 each - $9,000 - to Holland’s campaign coffers.”
This shows a link between Jerry Holland and J.D. Collins that I did not know existed. How did Jerry Holland know that Mac Brunson was coming to FBC? Could it be that he found out through his wife who works for J.D. Collins because the J.D. Collins land deal was what enticed Mac Brunson to come to Jacksonville in the first place? So again the question First Baptist Church of Jacksonville deserves an answer to is Did Mac Brunson know about this $300,000 land gift before he accepted the job as Pastor of First Baptist Church Jacksonville? This is a question that our church deserves an answer to, and yes Robert we will keep on "whining and griping" until it is eventually answered.
I admit I don't know J.D. Collins. And I was not aware that Ashley Collins (of the Collins Builders company) was even a member of our church until he was publicly promoted with the video. I am sure they are great guys who know how to wisely "invest" their funds for the greatest return on their investments. Likewise, I am sure Mac is very faithful to those who have been very "generous" to him. I guess we all just need to stay tuned!
ReplyDeleteWD -- I know you have stated you are not interested in things that happened in Dallas, and I understand your reasons. But I did want to make you aware of one thing I was reminded of when reading this recent post linking Brunson, Collins, and Holland.
ReplyDeleteAfter the "go-ahead" vote was taken for the new building at FBCD, there was a sudden change-of-contracter from the contracter who was originally hired. This was done unilaterally, as no mention was made of it when the building vote was taken. When questioned, it was stated that the original contracter was hired just for the planning or design phase, and that they had always intended to "re-evaluate" things after that phase was over. However, when the original bidding process occurred, and the original contracter won the bid and was announced to the church, there was no mention that this was just for some "initial phase". It was implied, if not stated, that this was for the entire gig.
Now, why bring this up? When the contracter change was made several months after the bidding process ended, without any new bidding process being opened up, the new "low bidder" was a company called The Beck Group, which was then headed up by the chairman of the building steering committee at FBCD. (He is now retired.) Basically he came in with his construction group and undercut the low bid, after chairing the steering committee that made the recommendations on who to hire to the deacons and the church body.
I remember when Mac announced the change in contracter from the pulpit, and said something to the effect of "[Committee Chairman] came to me and said 'I want to help you out. I want to help my church. We're going to give you a better deal.' And I am so glad he did, because wouldn't we rather have this thing done right, by one of our own? I know you all agree with me. So we are going to have The Beck Group build this new Criswell Center for us!"
I had forgotten about this, as it was one of many issues with Mac that kind of blurred together around that time. But after reading the prediction that Collins might end up with a contract to build something or renovate something at FBCJax, it triggered my memory.
Again, I understand your desire to not dredge up old history from Dallas, and I respect that. You can post this or not post it -- up to you. I just wanted to make you aware of this situation, in case something similar happens (in terms of a sweetheart deal) with Collins in the future.
Maybe "Micah" can come on and tell us "facts" about this too, since he seemed to "know for a fact" about many things that he claims the WD doesn't know about. Or some of those "anons" who were so quick to confirm Micah by saying "Amen" and asking him to email them and telling WD that Micah "speaks facts" while the WD speaks out of ignorance. Let's hear from Micah and his cohorts on this one.
ReplyDeleteI just got my "camp letter" today. I have to say that it sure would be nice to know where that money goes. As a member, I directly emailed the HS dept (with my name on it) and asked if there were any paid staff at camp (I had heard there were). I received a very odd message. It came from Diana Talbert's email account and said "I have made it a policy not to respond to rumors as that would be a sinful contribution to gossip and antithetical to my mission to edify believers. It is rare that any response will “put to rest” any rumor as the originator of rumors do not have a problem with logical reason, but rather a problem with clinging to an unregenerate nature.
ReplyDeleteJim Smyrl"
Is this a new canned response they give to anyone who asks questions? How can I give to people who accuse me of an "unregenerate nature" whenever I ask a simple, straightforward question? Talk about a chip on the shoulder. How about some accountability??
Looks like a "hotbed of political influence".
ReplyDeleteCommenting to the e-mail response by Jim Smyrl... it seems obvious that the staff has been instructed, has taken the stand or has been given a policy to follow to not respond to anonymous e-mails. If this is the case, then they can do nothing else short of leaving.
ReplyDeleteTo answer one opens the door to say a precedent has been set and all then would expect to be answered.
Good move for the staff. Nice try by the veiled. Sign your name and if you don't get answers let people know they don't answer signed e-mails either. To remain anonymous plays into their hands.
Camp Letters...
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for sharing that response from Jim Smyrl. What a disgusting remark to send to someone in your church for doing nothing more than asking a question! How dare you not just do what Brunson says and give even more money! Be a good sheep and just obey and quit asking all these pesky questions!
I am amazed more and more every week as to the arrogance of the members of the Brunson regime. I also dared to question something in an email(with my name on it also) and received a similar arrogant response from Jim Smyrl.
For those of you who question why we blog, and why we don't just "ask for answers" that is a perfect example of why there is a need for this blog. People have tried to ask for answers and that is the arrogance to which a simple question is responded with.
Wow. Jim Smyrl had me fooled. I had not idea he would respond in this manner. I had hoped for better from Jim. I should have known better.
ReplyDeleteCan anyone explain why Mac was making a big deal today about people who get upset about not being in leadership positions when they aren't ministering already? It seems like he was focusing on some people who are demanding to be in leadership - because when there was scant applause he said in the typical sarcastic Mac Brunson manner "don't clap, because I know what I say hurts"....just wondered what the context was for his comments...
ReplyDeleteFirst, they ask us to "put our names on our questions" and when we do, well, you can read Jim Smyrl's response. He calls you "unregenerated" or LOST. Wow.
ReplyDeleteSecond, they tell us, "if you don't like the leadership, get on a committee and do something about it. When we try that, we get a little explanation today that basically says "that will never happen!"
Jim Smyrl - I am embarrassed for you brother. You have made a very wrong decision to go this route and you and your family will someday reap what you have decided to sew. So sad.
Hey Mac - Shirley Lindsay loved and "supported" everybody. That was who she was. Don't take it personal and make it about you, please. That she supported you says a lot about the level of class and dignity of HER, nothing about YOU sir.
ReplyDelete"Camp Letters":
ReplyDeleteCan you please post the email you sent to Jim Smyrl that prompted the response you posted? I am extremely saddened to read of his terse response to you. He obviously doesn't even know how to communicate in a professional manner to personal emails - not to mention that he is a minister and is charged by God to minister to God's people. If he desired not to respond to your question, he very easily could have responded in a way that didn't assume that you are "unregenerate".
But to be fair to Jim Smyrl, I would ask that you post your email to him, word for word in its entirety, and confirm that what you posted as his email was exactly his email word for word in its inetirety. If you didn't post all of his email, I request that you post all of it. That way we can at least be fair to Rev. Smyrl that he wasn't "taken out of context".
Thanks.
P.S.
Note to A-Group: can you perhaps provide some "PR" training to Jim Smyrl on how to write emails to those in his church who request information that he doesn't agree with, without calling people "unregenerate"? I heard someone say once that a kind word can turn away anger, or something like that. ;)
Ghost,
ReplyDeleteHow does anyone on staff know that anonymous letters or e-mails are from members?
Do you want to say that the staff must answer all questions about the church or their personal lives to anyone who asks? Even non church members? Is that how you want private church information shared?
anon 5:00 p.m. - pay attention - these folks have put their name on their emails. All of us have. There is always some excuse for not giving a straight answer to a simple question. Now Smyrl refers to people who have questions as lost. Pretty sick really, and very sad.
ReplyDeleteVoice of Reason says:
ReplyDeleteThe worst part about this gift from Collins is that he claimed it was for "love and affection." We now know that was a lie.
The second worst part was it was a gift straight to Mac and Debbie's pockets. All of his other "contributions/donations" were to political campaigns, under the applicable campaign finance laws. Which means they were publicly disclosed, limited and used for the election campaign. To give $307K unrestricted to one man that is not even running for office...well friends, if you don't have any questions about that, I can't help you.
It seems either those that work for and with Mac are not "clinging to an unregenerate nature", they just have a problem with logical reason! Amen and Amen!
Watchdog, I was wondering excactly the same thing about what Mac could have been referring to in his sermon this morning. Is it possible for Mac to spend one sermon actually doing his job and preaching WITHOUT attacking someone in his congregation?
ReplyDeleteAnon 3:55...AMEN! That irked me to. And of course he had to get up and talk about how the church is paying for the funeral to make himself look good. That was a good step in the right direction Mac....now if you could get up in the pulpit and explain what the church is spending on you and your family salaries, why we are short on our missions budget, how much was raised for the media fund, and other such details we will be making progress. But you won't do that will you Mac? Why that won't make you look near as good as getting up and grandstanding by bragging about how YOU decided to pay for Mrs. Lyndsey's funeral.
Anon 5:00....I have no idea what you are talking about. Noone on this post has said anything about anonymous emails. We have been discussing an extremely rude email reply Rev. Jim Smyrl sent to a church member who put there name on an email that simply dared to ask a simple question about high school camp. So anon...what is your defense of this?
I would assume that the Shirley Lindsay Trust that was set up on the death of Homer would have ample funds to take care of her the rest of her life and most likely her funeral and burial plot were pre-paid along with her husbands. Just guessin of course. In any event, Mrs. Lindsay was not in need of funds to pay for a funeral. Again, going back to Spurgeon's eggs and him and his wife keeping it a secret. IF Mac was going to be doing something for this sweet lady, either privately or as leader of the church, why tell us about this with a clear announcement in the Sunday morning service? Other things are not our business he seems to think, but this is? The man is nothing but a self promoter. A cheap shot to say "if you are tithing a portion is going to pay for Mrs. Lindsay funerals." True, but so misleading. Less than 1 cent on the dollar would go to this cause. And so what, I would hope after a lifetime of service, the church would pick up any funeral or other bill she would have. Don't these preachers and their wives get money from the annuity board too? That just seemed really awkward, him telling us the church will be paying for the funeral when he doesn't tell us so many other more important things.
ReplyDeleteBut I digress...why would a man like J.D. Collins give Mac such a huge gift for "love and affection", Mac accept it, and then never mention it even one time to us during his 2 + plus years in the pulpit?
For what its worth, Shirley Lindsay would stop me just about every time she saw me in church and would tell me that she loved me and was praying for me. She was one of my biggest supporters and encouragers at the church. I will miss her support and encouragement greatly.
ReplyDeleteAnd if anyone wants to send me thousands of dollars, I will see that "a portion of that" goes to her family. Thanks.
Let me begin by saying that "Thank you" to the people who read my first post carefully and noticed that my name was on the email that I sent. I have removed it from here because I don't really want mac supporters to begin emailing me. They can't offer explanations, and I am posting this only so that people can see what direction the church is headed. I probably shouldn't have used the word "rumor" because it seems to get a pretty strong response, but here is the message in its entirety and FBC's response(along with my response which did not get answered as of today). I will post one if I receive it. I have not altered anything except to remove my name and email address.
ReplyDeleteFirst Message...
From:
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:07 PM
To: Diana Talbert
Subject: Summer Camp
Hello,
I'm a member at First and I just have a quick question for the dept. I know that Camp is coming up in Aug and the gossip mill is up and running and I want to put to rest a rumor. Someone told me that there is paid staff at the High School Summer Camp. I just need to hear it from you that there is no one from the church who is paid to be at camp. (Obviously, the camp is paid for meals, etc). I was always told that all of the staff is there on a volunteer basis. They had said that the choir director is paid.
Thank you - just wanted to get it "from the horses mouth".
FBC Jax response ...
From: Diana Talbert highschool@fbcjax.com
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:47:43 AM
Subject: RE: Summer Camp
I have made it a policy not to respond to rumors as that would be a sinful contribution to gossip and antithetical to my mission to edify believers. It is rare that any response will “put to rest” any rumor as the originator of rumors do not have a problem with logical reason, but rather a problem with clinging to an unregenerate nature.
Jim Smyrl
My response ... (I have not received a reply to this and will post it when I do)
Jim,
I agree about rumors. You just can't win with them, however, as a member, I am curious myself as to whether any workers are paid for being at camp. I know that the letters for fund raising for camp will be out soon and before I contribute this year, I was just wondering.
Thank you for your response.
_________
That was sent before I had received the camp fund raising letter.
My stars.
ReplyDeleteA few questions: Is J.D. Collins even a member of our church?
Ashley Collins is now a deacon. How long has he been a member, and when did he become a deacon?
Thanks Camp Letter Update.
ReplyDeleteBut now you're spreading rumors, so therefore according to Rev. or Dr. (which is it?) Jim Smyrl you are "unregenerate". :)
Such big, complicated words they teach in seminary.
And Mac says WE'RE legalists....
Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteI just don't understand why it's so complicated for them to answer a question. There is such a culture of secrecy at FBC. They try to make me feel like I'm a horrible person just for asking where the money goes. Jesus taught accountability. As Christians we have a responsibility to check to see where the money is going. I wish they didn't make that so difficult. It just implies that they are doing something wrong when they can't be honest and open (I'm not saying that they are, but it begins to look that way)
Are these people completely devoid of manners? Why announce that the church was paying for Mrs. Lindsay's funeral? Mrs. Lindsay was a very Godly person and knowing her personally (as others did) I can tell you she also had pride and would have been embarrassed by this annoucement. She was not destitute. If this was truly done as a kindness why announce it? Most good deeds are done or should be done with no public fanfare.
ReplyDeleteFrom observation, I have found that class and good manners are not always found in church leadership.
The FBC jax website photo with Ms. Lindsay overlaid on top of a photo with Mrs. Lindsay lovingly looking at Mac...that's what you get with the AGroup baby. There's not reason at all to include Mac in that photo spot. But its a chance for Mac promotion.
ReplyDeleteThen the announcement that we're paying for the funeral. WHAT IS UP WITH THAT??? This guy either has no shame, or no judgement whatsoever. I mean if she really needed us to pay for the funeral, everyone assumes we would no questions asked. And if she and her family needed our help, they wouldn't want us to broadcast it.
And the guy's prayer tonight during baby dedication: "Lord we pray some of these kids will come up through our Academy where they will be taught the Word..." Maurio, you have taught Mac well how to self promote, but you need to teach him what is called "tact".
Anon 11:20
ReplyDeleteThey have been members of FBC for about 30 years. Im the same age as their youngest son and I believe Ashley is about 30 years old.
Wow WD -- so right about the photo on the home page. Why not just stick with the studio shot of her? There is no reason for the odd half-faded background shot of her and Mac.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention the big "Funeral Information and Press Release from Dr. Mac Brunson" link below the photo. A link which takes you to no funeral information, but to another link titled "Dr. Mac Brunson's Press Release".
They could have easily included a nice short statement on the website itself about how the "church family mourns the passing..." But this link to a formally prepared PDF press release, written in the first person? Makes Gina Ford sound like Mac Brunson's private publicist or media agent, rather than the church's director of communications.
Nit-picky? Maybe. But it does reek of using church resources for unecessary self-promotion.
Jim Smyrl has his own website.
ReplyDeletewww.loyalheartministries.com
I thought his commentary on "Politics and the Pew" would help explain his thinking in regards to his response to the camp letter emailer.
I've worked at High School Camp for the last 15 years or so and I've never known anyone to get paid for it. Anyone that's ever ministered in this way knows this. If there was no music guy and we needed one I would hope we would pay him. But there's no need to go overboard about paying one person for a weeks amount of work. I've worked my butt off at camp year after year but I'm not complaining.
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine having a youth camp for a church as big as yours without paying the music guy. Also, if a staff guy goes to camp then they should be paid their regular salary.
ReplyDeleteI think you're straining at a gnat here.
Anon 10:39
ReplyDeleteYou make a good point.
However, the relevant point is this: this person put their name on the email, and they did ask a question. Certainly not the most pressing question our church faces, but this person did what the pastor has been saying: if you have questions, send an email with your name, and they'll answer it. The fact is this person has a question that is important to them, and they deserve a respectful answer.
Smyrl's response is snobbish and impersonal - and downright rude. Its pathetic really. He's charged with showing the love of God to those under his charge, even those who ask what he thinks are asking petty questions.
Camp Letters poster: I'm sorry that our paid staff member treated you so poorly, and sent you an email that not so indirectly said you are unregenerate. That is an awful thing for a minister to do to you. Unfortunately its the climate of our church today - don't be discouraged however. Keep serving in whatever capacity you are in and keep praying for our church and for our leaders that they will stop this kind of behavior toward God's people. Let me give you the response that your email deserved. I'll play the role of higly paid staff member charged by God to care for the flock, even those in the flock that I think have sent me a petty email [I don't think yours is petty, but EVEN IF I DID I wouldn't have sent you the email Smyrl did]:
Here's my response to you as highly paid staff member charged with caring for the flock:
Dear xxxxxx: thanks for your email. While I do understand this question might be important to you, I hope you understand that I don't have knowledge of all the camp expenditures. As you might understand the camps are a very big logistical effort requiring a wide variety of skills, ministries, talents, etc. There are several categories of helpers that make the camps a huge success: we have some paid staff members that go, we have college interns that we sometimes pay and do an awesome job ministering, and we have lay people who do go with no reimbursement as they go as lay ministers as missionaries would. But if you have a specific concern over a specific expenditure, I am certain we could get that information to you if you were to give us more information about your request. But to answer your question: yes, there are some people who do go to camp that might be paid, but the majority go as lay ministers. I can assure you that I and our high school staff, all the way up to our pastor, are very concerned over every penny that we spend, and we all do our very best to make sure we wisely spend the money that God gives us for our camps. Thanks again for your email. God bless, Jim Smyrl.
Would that have been so hard Jim? I mean really. Get off your high horse sir. You're not as important as you seem to think you are...and you're not above giving direct responses to the flock when asked.
Hey Jimbo: Proverbs 15:1
ReplyDeleteWatchdog,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response. It's so easy to get sucked into the culture of disrespect (as even some do here) that has become the norm at FBC. If Jim would have taken the time to respond like you did, I would have probably just thought "okay", and moved on. Maybe you should apply for a job down there :) Only, I'm afraid you wouldn't last too long. They would need to improve your "people skills" before they let you interact with the public. Ha Ha.
Seriously, keep up the good work and encouraging the faithful. Continue reminding us that our words have power and we will be held accountable for everything we say ... and type (because sometimes my flesh wants to react!)
God bless!
Mac reminds me of Jeremiah Wright...A highly paid hot shot that pops off his mouth in the pulpit but when his words are scrutinized he is exposed for what he really is. Only the gullible congregation he leads can defend his nonsense. These mega pastors continue to be exposed to the world. Sure, there will always be a market for them, and they will continue to steal sheep and grow their empires, but they have no real spiritual influence outside their little circle of self-importance. But man, the money sure is good!
ReplyDeleteYep, you guys figured it out!!!
ReplyDeleteCongrats!!!
Dr. Brunson left Dallas (apparently the ex-hotbed of legalism) so he could get him some free land from Collins.
I guess it did not have anything to do with the forthcoming downward spiral of home building, that Collins might have wanted a tax write off and that Dr. Brunson might have wanted to live in a gated community (like Dr. Vines).
On top of that Dr. Brunson is top secret political infiltrator and took the job at FBC Jax so he could to the bidding of Collins.
You should go to the Times Union with all this great information. I am sure they could do a series of stories on your "intelligence".
How do you guys/gals sleep at night?
Steve W
Nice try Steve.
ReplyDeleteFor the record: Dr. Jerry Vines did NOT live in a gated community. When you write something like you have here ridiculing a serious issue, and you decide to include just ONE fact, at least get that one fact right Steve.
You can do better Steve in defending/explaining the land gift than make light of it, and then give a false piece of information about the previous pastor.
Check that...Vines did live in a gated community...
ReplyDeleteOK, I cede that to you Steve.
One more thing Steve - since you know them motives in J.D. Collins giving the gift, then perhaps you can help us unregenerates and recalcitrants with a few of our questions:
ReplyDelete1. When were the Brunsons told of this land gift?
2. If the Brunsons were told at some point before they accepted the call to come, was the search committee told of this gift?
3. If this gift was given after Brunson had already accepted the call, why was not this disclosed to the congregation so we could all rejoice in this moving of God's hand?
4. If this gift was known by ANY of the members of the search committee, was it disclosed to the appropriate committee(s) who would have been responsible for determining the salary and relocation package for Brunson?
Those are just a few questions a crack blogger and baptist forum contributor like yourself could get to the bottom of and report back to us on.
Us unregenerates are waiting for answers!
Steve,
ReplyDeleteOnce again you try to dismiss something written here without specifically answering any questions. Watchdog just asked you some questions in response to your post in which you dismissed these facts and I have asked others. First of all, how does J.D. Collins wanting a tax break and wanting to give a piece of land to Mac Brunson in any way justify Mac ACCEPTING that gift?
Also, I was illustrating that J.D. Collins has a long history of giving to those people from whom he wants something in return. Please explain to me which facts you know that make this donation any different. Also, if Collins expected nothing in return please explain the advertisment done for Collins family business in one of our worship services.
How do you know that JD Collins actually "gave" this piece of property to the Brunsons?
ReplyDeleteI am not an expert is real estate matters, but isn't it possible that JD Collins is holding a mortgage on this land and possibly the house? When you buy property and there is a mortgage on it, the property appraisers records will show you as the owner, even though the bank holds the mortgage.
My guess is that Collins converted a vacant lot (albeit it a very nice one) into an investment by building a house on it and the Brunsons are paying the note.
Otherwise you have big gift tax issues. You can't just go around handing out property and not have the IRS involved in some fashion.
Again, just a thought.
Jim Smyrl did not say you were unregenerate. He said CLINGING to an unregenerate NATURE. And I quote, "...the originator of rumors do not have a problem with logical reason, but rather a problem with CLINGING TO AN UNREGENERATE NATURE." I suppose we could pick this to pieces by saying "originator" should be plural to read originators or the words "do not" should be changed to does not to show singularity, but perhaps this was a typo on the part of the person giving the quote. Let's set the record straight - he didn't say anyone was unregenerate.
ReplyDeletePlease bring extra cookies Sunday for my diligence in pointing this "misinterpretation" out to you. Thank you.
Smyrl's email was rude and cold and impersonal, using the word "unregenerate" to describe someone that he doesn't know (originators of some gossip). But that's OK, most ministers don't have to explain their emails to parishioners where they throw the word unregenerate around. But now we know not to ask Smyrl any questions.
ReplyDeleteDr. Vines also has a web site a 501c that charges for membership which then allows you access to his sermon outlines and his sermons WAY BEFORE he left FBCJAX. Hmmmm maybe some of those sermons were preached at FBC while he was on staff.
ReplyDeleteALSO if you go to said web site you can see where he took trips and a cruise. Hmmm I wonder was he given a free trip or paid to speak which is usally what happens on these trips? They were also while he was on staff. Dr. Stanley is always taking trips so I would assume that it has become standard practice.
I would be very careful here. The inference that Mr. Collins in any way gave money to political entities or candidates in return for favors or special consideration could be actionable in court of law should Mr. Collins or any of the individuals mentioned wish to push the issue. Your posts have gotten way off of the mark and are approaching criminal territory.
ReplyDeleteJust a word of caution...
Anonymous P.A.
Steve... You are joking, but you may be correct in your facetious assertion that Mac left Dallas due to a gift of a $300,000 lot. If he knew about it ahead of time, it at least was a factor in the decision. And SOMETHING happened which changed his mind, as he told his former congregation that he told FBC Jax "no" multiple times before finally accepting. Wait, that change-of-mind was due to God speaking to him as he rode a camel down Mt. Sinai at 2 a.m. Nevermind.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I am a bit confused at your statement that Collins made the gift to get a tax write off. In order to do that, he would have had to give it to the church, or some other 501(c)(3) entity. Mac is not a tax exempt entity, and therefore a gift to him directly is not a tax write-off. So you cannot have it both ways.
So either:
(1) The motivation was a tax write-off, and the gift was made to the church. This means that someone at the church knew about it, because they had to then give it to Mac. But a gift made to a 501(c)(3) must be made "no-strings-attached" in order to be tax deductible to the donor. So that means that the church received this gift, and then made an independent decision that the best use of this property was not to sell it and use the money for budget, missions, or whatever ministry purpose. The best use was to give it to the new pastor, who just happened to be coming to town at exactly the same time. This clearly becomes part of his compensation or relocation package provided by the church, and not a "gift". But this doesn't really sound like what happened, does it? I think we need to consider option 2.
(2) The gift was made directly to Mac, and therefore the motivation was not a tax write-off as Collins cannot deduct a gift to another person on his taxes. This seems like the more likely option, given that the deed mentions a transfer from Collins to Mac, directly, with no mention of the church. Yeah, I'm thinking this is probably what really happened. But then we are back to the same issue of the appearance given by accepting it, the motivation behind it, etc. So your explanation got us no where.
Then you go on to claim that the reason Mac came to Jacksonville is to do the bidding of Collins. Hmmm... but you already said that the reason he came was because of the land. If you are going to post a sarcastic analysis, at least try not to contradict yourself. Your making light of this issue does nothing toward resolving it. Your response continues in the weak tradition launching some tangential attack instead of focusing on the issue itself. And here you even make up an implausible explanation (the tax write-off) to explain away the issue raised.
You cannot simply make light of a serious concern and expect people to laugh and forget about it. Especially when you contradict yourself and come up with implausible explanations to defend your position.
I really am curious -- what do you personally think motivated Collins to give the land? We've already established that it was not a tax benefit. It is pretty safe to assume that Collins hadn't known Mac for years or something prior to April 2006. Honestly, what do YOU think the motivation was?
Anon 4:07 --
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question, the deed states the it was sold to the Brunsons for $10. I think we can all agree to call that a gift. There is no mortgage as you supposed.
As for the gift tax issues, you are correct. This goes back to the fact that the motivation on Collins' part could not have been a tax benefit.
Excellent.
ReplyDeleteLet's review:
People who ask questions at FBC Jax or that demand accountability and openness:
1. Recalcitrants
2. "clinging to unregenerate natures"
3. "comfortable in their sin and in their compromise"
4. "have their own lists and no real relationship with Jesus Christ"
5. criminals
Thanks anon P.A.
We'll be waiting to be served.
WD and others, be careful. Its one thing to dog a pastor, but when you turn your sites on one of the most powerful and influential developers in this city, you are in another realm altogether. I think some of you might not know who you're messin' with, and I would just caution you to not say anything "actionable" as the P.A. poster said. I'm on your side here, but just be very, very careful.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog:
ReplyDeleteA few others to add to your list:
'worshipping the past'
'worshipping previous pastors'
Oh ok I get it, the rude and cold nature of Smyrl's letter hurt your feelings and that is why there is such a fuss about it...gotcha
ReplyDeleteAlso I'd like to add this and not have it over looked:
"For the record: Dr. Jerry Vines did NOT live in a gated community. When you write something like you have here ridiculing a serious issue, and you decide to include just ONE fact, at least get that one fact right Steve.
You can do better Steve in defending/explaining the land gift than make light of it, and then give a false piece of information about the previous pastor."
Thank you WD for showing us all that you dont know everything that you talk about, as you came back and admitted.
This blog and its creator has reached an all time low. Quite sad and pathetic actually because now you have stooped to pulling the late Mrs. Lindsay into this by using her as a tool to chop at the pastor. Its wrong to be honest and if Vines or Dr. Lindsay knew, for one this blog existed, and second that you were accusing the man of God and third that you were pulling a great woman of God into this...Vines would have more than words to say and Dr. Lindsay would be rolling in his grave.
Wake up! In the time that this blog has been up, you have received no answers from the Pastor, and I dont see one coming anytime soon, no matter what topic you decide to post about.
So, I must add something other than criticism lest I be blasted on here too...so lets address the land gift seeing as how everyone seems to have a problem with it. I have a good Realtor friend in Ft. Worth who has mentioned that the property value in Jacksonville is nearly double that of Dallas. This could be a very good reason why the pastor accepted the gift of land. It makes no difference the timing of when he accepted it, who cares except those on here who will literally poke and pry at everything to try and find something to talk about? No one. I am a member of the church and do I care when he knew about the gift? No, and as much as this blog likes to announce that it speaks for the church....it doesn't. This blog is made up of a small hand few who continually post on here, one after the other. The own creator of this blog posts anonymously so what makes me think everyone else doesn't just post & re-post? Since June of 2007, this site has received barely over 3,000 views...yet WD loves to post about how many comments he gets and loves to add in some of his own comments, "the people of the church..." or the "voice of the people". Really? I think your response to this would be something like, "the voice of the people who dont blindly follow" or "the voice of the people who wont sit back...". Interesting, people on here love to post about how great their previous pastor's were and how Vines led the church! Great, ill agree with you, but you contradict yourself when you praise Vines for how he led the church then turn around and get upset because your great leader "hand picked Mac Brunson".
Back to the issue at hand, the land gift. So, with the property value being double in Jacksonville than in Dallas, im gonna find it real hard to believe that the Pastor didn't jump at the opportunity to receive the gift. A tax write off for Collins, an open door for Mac. You honestly want me to believe that Dr. Brunson made enough money in Dallas to pay for the move, pay $307,000 for land, pay for the house to be built and also pay for a place to stay? I don't think so. As for the timing of this gift, if he knew about it ahead of time, why couldn't that be one of Gods affirmations to Mac to go ahead with the move? If he didn't know about it till after he accepted the call to FBCJax, wouldn't that show incredible faith in our Pastor to pick up and move without having a place to move into? Yea, it sure does to me. I can trust what the man says because he's demonstrated faith whether he knew ahead of time or not. He came from one congregation to another, for any pastor that is a hard thing to do. If you have ever listened to any interviews from Mac, he has stated that he said no to coming to FBCJax when he was first invited, and he even answers the the question raised of 'why did he change his mind?'...he stated that God kept opening doors and kept pulling him to leave Dallas. Can anyone explain that? No, but just because you cant explain something doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Don't think that because God does something for you, talks to you or works in you in a specific way, He has to do something, talk or work in someone else the same way. You can't explain the land "gift" because to you, it wasn't done or handled in a way you would have handled it...therefore, you assume because it was done differently than you have have handled it, there was "something else" behind it, it was an abuse or it gives the appearance of evil.
I get so sick of hearing people on here talk about how Mac does things that "give the appearance of evil", and WD, you're the ring leader of that argument! Great, I know what the Bible says about giving the appearance of evil, but I also know what Christ said Himself about judging others, about those without sin casting the first stone and about examining the sin in your own life before pointing out sin in another's. You scream "Mac gives the appearance of evil!", "Mac is a hypocrite!", "Mac is a liar!"...on and on it goes. Will you give it a rest already?! You wanna talk about giving the appearance of evil WD? How bout this, your posts give a judging, condemning appearance. Please address this issue! You say Man is a hypocrite but you yourself are being hypocritical by saying Mac gives the appearance of evil in things he does, yet your blog, your posts and your words give the appearance of judging Mac, by talking down about him and calling him names. Paul speaks very clearly of those who are inside the body of believers who seek to tear down...Wolves in sheep's clothing maybe??? Are we not called to build up and edify the body of Christ? Answer this question WD, how does call the Pastor a liar, hypocrite, abuser and, as ive seen referenced too, a pompous ass? I dont want your response to be "oh well tell me how Mac builds up the church by da da da..". No, answer the question directly. If, IF Mac has done something wrong, didn't Paul give us the example of how to handle the situation? I dont remember Paul ever saying, "if a brother offends you, Blog about him and call him names!" or "if a brother offends you, put him down! Your personal feelings are more important than him!". Nope, dont remember those verses.
Im sure someone will say, "you dont know what youre talking about. The Pastor cant do this....and cant be allowed to do that....and he's accountable to us....". Seriously? Is he really? As far as it concerns me, he is accountable to God first and foremost, and secondly to his wife and family. I agree, it would be nice to be filled in on some things going on, but just because I am not, doesn't mean there's some sinister plan taking place.
This blogging deal going on has become an obsession for you. My God, you have city documents of the man's house and a slew of information for JD Collins. If you put as much of your time into Gods word, as you spend trying to find out some wrong done by the Pastor so you could exploit him, you may learn something:)
Now, answer my questions WolfDog
Wow - what a post. More fuel for the fire, but thanks for your insights Anon.
ReplyDeleteOn the "views" of this website:
You say 3000 views since June 07. I won't get sucked into telling you the number of views since June 07, but let's just say it this way: this site has nearly doubled your estimate...in this week alone. You do the math on that one Charlie.
I agree with the P.A. that posted earlier. This blog has stepped into the realm of criminal territory.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also agree with the Anon poster who posted at 5:39pm.
So to put 2 and 2 together, you recalcitrant bloggers are turning into dumb criminals.
Anon 5:39 --
ReplyDeleteI don't think the question is whether Mac made enough in Dallas to afford such a house, but rather whether he makes enough in Jacksonville. And apparently he does. So does that bother you or make you feel better?
Your argument about housing values is interesting. I'll accept your statement that housing is 2x is Jacksonville what it is in Dallas. This seems about right, given that in Dallas he had a $500,000 house and now he has a $1M house. (see http://www.collincad.org/collindetail.php?theKey=1996207) I mean really, while a half million dollar house in Dallas is probably pretty nice, we couldn't expect him to take such a huge step back to one of those measly little half million dollar houses in Jacksonville. You are so right -- he really needed that $300,000 lot.
And as for his salary in Dallas. I'm sure you are right. There is no way he could have scraped by on that in Jacksonville. Not a chance.
You claim he couldn't afford to pay for the move, a lot for a new house, and a place to stay while the house was being built. Well, he didn't have to pay for any of those things. Must be tough depending on the charity of others like that all the time.
Robert - I agree.
ReplyDeleteWe're criminals.
Slandering criminals.
We should be stopped.
And immediately.
That's the spirit W!
ReplyDeleteAnon P.A. - if in fact you are really an attorney as you are implying than you will know that threatening criminal charges as a result of a civil dispute could get you disbarred. If on the other hand, you are NOT a real attorney, than you might want to check into the criminality of holding yourself out as one when in fact you are not.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't think you can hide behind a anon post, since once the legal proceedings get started, every ISP and commenter on here will be identified by the authorities for questioning and investigation as needed.
As for Mr. Collins - he knows how to get things done in this city (see as proof his $307K gift of land to the new preacher) so he also knows how to defend himself if he feels someone is defaming him and his family. Remember, his contributions to political campaigns are public records, as is the deed to Mac Brunson for "love and affection." He has done nothing that is not commonly done in the secular world. So it is Mac Brunson who is under scrutiny here.
And believe me, your threats ring hollow here, P.A. Full discovery would be afforded by law to defend any charges against the WD. And Team B and the rest of them are too smart to open up the records to the legal process. They know that "people that live in glass houses..."
Signed, Another Anonymous P.A.
Hey Wolfdog, im still waiting for you to address my previous post. So far all you can talk about is, once again, your blog views, which on your blog, still say only a little 3,000, but that isn't the issue.
ReplyDeleteWhen you finish collaborating a sarcastic, answer-dodging response, post it.
As for Anon 6:32, you have proved nothing, unless you were trying to show how dissatisfied you are that no one has done anything for you. "Poor me...why does no one care about what I have to say? Why does it seem that God blesses everyone around me...but not me? I know what ill do! Ill take a high school mentality and try to put others down to make myself feel better!" Are you for real? Open your mind a little wider than your eyes.
As much as you all desire for answers, you desire to discredit and put down even more. At least, thats the appearance of this blog:) Wolfdog, ever heard the phrase "practice what you preach"? You proclaim "Mac is a liar!", "Mac is a hypocrite!", "Mac is an abuser !" and "Mac gives the appearance of evil!"...Um, excuse me? Wolfdog, you: 1. Plaster your assumptions as facts, which is you lying, because in reality, you dont have a clue what you are talking about because you dont have any of the details. 2. You are a hypocrite because you demand answers yet you cant give DIRECT answers. You merely dance around what someone says in a mocking, sarcastic manner. Also, you say that "Mac does things that give the appearance of evil", yet your blog gives the appearance of judging, condemning and slandering another brother in Christ. 3. You contradict yourself by praising Vines leadership, then fussing about how he "hand picked" Mac to follow him at the church. 4. You judge by calling Mac stupid, hypocritical and a liar, among other things, simply because you disagree and dont know every detail to every move made by the pastor that you feel should be done in a better way. 5. You are doctrinally way off because you follow none of the Biblical teachings of how to handle disputes in the church, you pin one believer against another on this blog and you slander, put down and try to exploit a fellow brother in Christ by saying you are trying to keep him accountable. Seeing as how, as Christians, we are to base everything we say and do off of scripture, show me your scriptural defense for these 5 characteristics of you and what you do on this site.
Im waiting
Are your 5 points questions or assertions? I'm not going to address your questions or your assertions, whichever they may be.
ReplyDeleteAnd your un-Christian attitude shows me that you need to get the plank out of your own eye, sir, before you accuse me.
What you're looking at are profile views. Yes, 3000 profile views...that increments one everytime someone views my profile and has nothing to do with visitors to the site. You might be shocked if I posted the visits and page views this site gets every day, so I'll spare you the details.
May 6, 9:07 p.m. - what are you waiting for? If all the things you say about the watchdog are true, then I wouldn't give him any more money until he answers your questions. If you feel he needs to answer your questions since he is your ... uh..your pastor? no, your boss? uh no, well anyway, if you think he owes you answers, than don't go to hear him preach...uh , I mean don't read his posts anymore. Yeah, thats it.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but I missed it. What position does the WD hold that gives you any reason to demand any answers from him? I'm waiting!
Bloggers - all arguing aside, the bottom line is this. The man stood up to preach and all I could think of was "that man accepted a $307K piece of land for "love and affection" from J.D. Collins three weeks after he came here." Then I wondered, why did he play a commercial for Collins Builders? It really makes me sad.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog, nobody is impressed by your numbers. The Enquirer makes a fortune off of this type of drama.
ReplyDeleteI'm not impressed that you're not impressed because I wasn't trying to impress. Just correcting a misconception among Mac's defenders that this blog doesn't get many views.
ReplyDeleteCollins couldn't write that land off for taxes if the Brunsons didnt claim it on theirs. Last time I check Mac the person isnt a non-profit. Id be willing to bet that he didnt claim an extra 300k as income last year.
ReplyDeleteRobert,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for pointing out that people who use their 1st Amendment Rights of Freedom of Speech are criminals.
As expected you didn't answer one single question I address in the blog, but responded by calling me a "dumb criminal." As usual, you raise the intelligence to such a high level. I only wish all of the bloggers on here offered such well thought out and intelligent posts as you do Robert.
VOTE McCAIN!
ReplyDeleteExactly Wolfdog, you have proven my point. Thank you:)
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, you cant stand someone standing up to you and putting you in your place. You cant defend what you do, or the way you go about it, nor do you have any frame of reference to accuse anything because you can't back it up with evidence, but rather your own assumptions, nor can you address any issues other than the one's that will further your purpose. You also have no place to call my attitude "un-Christian". I say the same things about you that you say about Mac and im "un-Christian". I demand answers, same as you, and im "un-Christian".
Here is the real deal, you cant find for me anywhere in scripture where your attitude of put-downs and name calling is justified. However, you have justified all that I said of you by standing down and not answering questions thrown at you:)
Oh, and Anon 9:21, what in the world are you even talking about? You defend someone who cant defend themselves. Smart.
Anon 9:23, if you are sitting amongst the body of Christ, entering into worship by song and fellowship, and hearing the Word of God preached, and all you can think of is somebody's land, you have bigger problems to worry about than whether or not it is right for the pastor to own that land and why a commercial was played in the service.
Reply to:
ReplyDelete"How do you know that JD Collins actually "gave" this piece of property to the Brunsons?
I am not an expert is real estate matters, but isn't it possible that JD Collins is holding a mortgage on this land and possibly the house? When you buy property and there is a mortgage on it, the property appraisers records will show you as the owner, even though the bank holds the mortgage.
My guess is that Collins converted a vacant lot (albeit it a very nice one) into an investment by building a house on it and the Brunsons are paying the note.
Otherwise you have big gift tax issues. You can't just go around handing out property and not have the IRS involved in some fashion.
Again, just a thought.
May 6, 2008 4:07 PM"
Mac does have a 350k mortgage on the house and their isnt another LEGAL lien holder attached to the property. Also, Collins didnt build the house. Howard White, who is also a longtime FBC member, built the house under the name of the company that bought his home building company a couple years back. I have no idea how much Mac makes, what kind of investments he has made over the years, or how this deal was put together, but I do know he made less than 100k on the house that he sold in Dallas and he only has a $350k mortgage. I am a home builder and I know that the size and finishes of his house COST much more than $450k ($450 - $100 made in Dallas = $350 mortgage). When I say cost, I mean no overhead and profit. I also know that a company as large as Woodside Homes, the company that now owns Howard Whites North Florida Builders, would not build a house at or below cost for anyone. Especially as soft as the market was when this was going through. The number just do not add up on this end and I bet they dont add up on Macs end if the irs audited him.
Also, the number the COJ uses for tax purposes is normally a lot less than the market value. Especially in a neighborhood this old. There aren't very many house built in Deerwood anymore, so most of the comps are coming off of older dated existing home that are much smaller in sq footage than Macs. The was this deal was done also saves Mac a ton on property taxes. They will base his taxes next year off of his "contract price" of somewhere between $350 and $450 as oppose to the 1.5 million that it would appraise at in the private sector. Thats a savings of about $40k a year in property taxes, which would be over 100% more than their current mortgage payment.
Other than all of that it seems like the deal is on the up and up. By the way folks, all of this is public info and can be found very easily on the net. Dont believe a word that I say, find it for yourself.
Anon 10:05 pm - plank. plank in your eye. Get it out.
ReplyDeleteReply to anon May 6, 2008 5:39 PM
ReplyDeletehttp://mls.idseed.com/lanham/mlslisting.asp?search=neighborhood&return=mls.asp&address=&area=181-43
Check out this website and tell me what you see for a 6000 sf house in a Dallas country club. I see $8 million, $4.8, 3.4, 2.975, $2.875, and I can keep going and going. Home prices in Dallas are not half as much as they are in Jacksonville. You may be able to compare certain neighborhoods that way, but Mac went from not living in a country club, to building a 6000 sf house in one of the most expensive country clubs in town. So your logic doesnt make much sense. If Jacksonville is so much more expensive, then how can he afford twice the house on a lot that is worth the same price as he paid for his house in Dallas?
Give me a break Steve.
Anon 5:39 and 9:07:
ReplyDeleteOK, I'll play. You said:
As for Anon 6:32, you have proved nothing, unless you were trying to show how dissatisfied you are that no one has done anything for you.
Well, I proved you were right on your housing values analysis. But I also pointed out, sarcastically I admit, that a half million dollar house wouldn't be that bad. And that Mac's salary in Dallas is entirely irrelevant. But no, I was not trying to show any personal dissatisfaction, so allow me to assuage you of that concern right now. Plenty of people have done plenty of things for me, and I recognize that I am not entitled to many of them. But you make the roundabout argument that somehow Mac was entitled to a $300K gift of land because housing prices are more in Jacksonville than in Dallas?
"Poor me...why does no one care about what I have to say? Why does it seem that God blesses everyone around me...but not me? I know what ill do! Ill take a high school mentality and try to put others down to make myself feel better!"
I think I already addressed this above. But to clarify, this 'quote' is not at all my point. You know it and I know it. I made absolutely no reference to myself in the post, other than introductions such as "I think", etc. If you read my original post, I did not put any one down. Seriously, go read it -- I didn't. But I must say that your "high school mentality" comment is a put down. I'm almost compelled to respond with an "I know you are but what am I", but I'll refrain. :)
Are you for real? Open your mind a little wider than your eyes.
Yes, I am very much for real. I am looking at this situation open mindedly and open eyedly. Periodically, I post what I'm seeing and/or thinking.
Now, I've addressed each thing you said, this time sans sarcasm. If that offended you last time, I apologize -- I was merely employing it as a way to make my point on the land issue. You, unlike many posters here, had actually raised a substantive defense for Mac -- that housing prices made it necessary for him to receive the land. So I wanted to address it, substantively.
Unfortunately, your most recent post descended into the style typical of most who don't see the issues posted here as problems. Instead of addressing them substantively, you attack the bloggers and WD as liars, hypocrites, judgmental, and "follow[ing] none of the Biblical teachings". Not only are those put downs, but name calling is a tactic used when you don't have any other defense. It's very instructive to watch.
Now, if you don't mind, I'd like you to answer my question -- how does it make you feel that Mac can afford a $1M house now? Better or worse?
Hey Wolfdog, I cant find the plank in my eye, can you point it out to me? What is the plank in my eye? Oh thats right, its my un-Christian attitude of asking you for Scripture to back yourself up. Whew, thank you for clarifying that one for me. You saved me from wasting the next year or so of my life behind a computer screen blaming other people for my apparent problems:)
ReplyDelete11:10
ReplyDeleteYou have a plank in your eye. Not saying one's not in my eye. Just saying that the plank in your eye almost poked my one good eye out right through the computer screen. Since I already have a plank in mine I can't afford for your plank to take my other good eye out.
Now, what were you saying about the land gift to Mac Brunson?
Hmm, I see we resort to, yet...yet again mockery Wolfdog. Admit it, you are avoiding the issues I raised because you know you cant argue what I said, and your continuing to skirt the issues shows very little about yourself. What it shows is you are all talk about what you think, but when confronted with the fact that you are doing things of the exact same nature you accuse another of, you cower away. Either address the issues I raised or admit that you are the very essence of what you accuse another of.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:09, better or worse? Neither. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference. How much closer to Christ have you grown through trying to prove that the Pastors house in some way reflects his leadership abilities? I will give you this tho, you responded respectively, which is more than I can say for Wolfdog who refuses to address my issues. However, lets take a look at what you did say that is wrong:
"Instead of addressing them substantively, you attack the bloggers and WD as liars, hypocrites, judgmental, and "follow[ing] none of the Biblical teachings". Not only are those put downs, but name calling is a tactic used when you don't have any other defense."
Now, if you go back and read what I said in my first post, I said that Wolfdog and this blog give the appearance of all those things....in my later post, the one you chose to look at, it was irrelevant for me to state the same phrasing a second time, just my issues. Now I turn to you, since you feel it necessary to use my own words against me in an effort to prove your point, go look on the main page of this blog and you will see every one of those characteristics used, by Wolfdog, towards Mac. You really think you can come at me for using the exact same words as the one you defend? Nice try, but we both know that this site is filled with posts from the one you defend, putting down, slandering, accusing out of ignorance, hypocritical, calling him stupid, questioning his character and every move. I point this out and I am the one called un-Christian...hmm that seems like another hypocritical and judgmental remark from Wolfdog.
Like I said, at least you responded and addressed one of the issues, which is more than I can say for the one you defend.
Oh an Wolfdog, im still waiting
You wait for answers from "wolfdog". That is fine. You wait.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, we'll wait for answers from Mac. I want no answers from you, as you are not accountable to me. So I don't blog demanding that you give me any answers on anything you post. You've said plenty in your posts that are wrong and presumptive about me, but I DON'T CARE. So stop coming here and demanding answers from me. This blog is about Mac being accountable to his congregation, yet you want to make this blog about me giving you answers. Ain't gonna happen so get over it.
Anon 12:39:
ReplyDeleteLet me be clear about a couple of things:
1) I'm not here defending anyone. You keep referencing "the one you defend". But if you read what I wrote, it isn't in defense of anyone. On the contrary, it does seem that you are here defending Mac. Which you are free to do. I just offered some thoughts on effective vs. ineffective means of defense.
2) You caught me. I skimmed the first post you wrote. It was so terribly long, I couldn't focus on all of it. I picked a couple of things to respond to that I saw. Anyway, the point is that arguing the tactics, terminology, etc rather than the merits is typically what is employed when you have no substantive argument.
3) I made no commentary regarding WD or his/her tactics. I will reference his/her most recent post here though -- I agree that the blog is about Mac and the church, not about WD. What gets me is that these personal, not-on-the-merits attacks claim that WD is engaging in the same things that WD and I and many others say Mac is engaging in. So if it is so bad for WD to engage in these things, bad enough to write posts so long that I don't even want to read them, then why aren't you equally upset that Mac is engaging in them?
Let me put it another way: You are all worked up about some anonymous person on the internet being "hypocritical" or a "liar", when you have no actual proof of these things other than anonymous internet postings. And you use these accusations to dismiss the very same behavior, or perception thereof, in the pastor of your church -- when instead of anonymous postings, the accusations are backed up with numerous links, audio recordings, public land records, etc.
Bottom line: WD is a nobody. There are a million hypocrites out there -- you gonna get worked up about every one of them? No. But Mac Brunson represents the church and runs the church. He has tremendous responsibility as a public figure, as a minister of the Gospel, and as a pastor of a local congregation. So if you are going to get worked up about someone being hypocritical, why do you choose to do it about the nobody rather than the one in the public spotlight?
On the house issue, I agree with you from the perspective that the size of house he can afford is of no relevance to me -- meaning that I live my life and he lives his and if my house is bigger or smaller than his, who cares. But I guess what I was getting at with the question was this: Is it appropriate for a pastor to be paid such a salary with tithe dollars that he can afford a million dollar house?
I'm the biggest free-market guy you'll ever meet. If you can afford it, you should be able to buy it. I have no problem with big houses, nice cars, etc. I think companies like ExxonMobil should be able to pay their CEO whatever they want -- let the market dictate the pay. But churches aren't a marketplace thing. I don't want a pastor to be struggling, I want him to be comfortable -- even more than comfortable. But there does come a point where it begins to appear excessive.
Now, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he inherited a huge trust fund and so he has money from all these investments. Awesome -- more power to him. But I really don't think that is the case. I really think the church pays him a salary that allows him to live in such a house. And that kinda gets to me.
Yeah, I know its a seperate issue from the land gift. But that was the point I was making with the question about whether it makes you feel good or bad for him to have a house that size, so I wanted to clarify it.
Anon 12:39:
ReplyDeleteOK...OK...before you call me a hypocrite... My last post was entirely too long! Sorry! I'll work on it! :)
WHAT DOES THE PASTORS' HOUSE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH REACHING THE PEOPLE OF JACKSONVILLE TO CHRIST?
ReplyDeleteABSOLUTELY NOTHING
pssst...Robert....[anonymous, post those anonymously, you'll be doing yourself a huge favor]....
ReplyDeleteRobert - please don't email me privately acting like you want personal advice from me. I question your motives in doing such, especially since just a few hours ago you posted that I am a criminal.
ReplyDeleteStop it Robert. And post anonymously.
Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteGood gosh man. I just wanted to know if you had any advice about the military. Don't freak out.
As far as being a criminal....we'll wait for the verdict.
Robert - not freaking out. Giving you some good advice. Don't seek out advice on important life decisions from someone you don't know, and who you think is behaving as a criminal, who is behaving like an unregenerate, a recalcitrant. You need to seek Godly advice that you can trust from people you know.
ReplyDeleteSo your saying advice from you would not be Godly or trustworthy?
ReplyDeleteNever thought I would hear that from you.
Anon 1:15 and 1:23,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your response and thought it honestly, a great response...I was however thinking, "why is he knockin the length of my post when his is just as long?"...then I saw the follow up!
Anyways, my posts are not pro-Mac or anti-Mac, they are simply to point out the hypocrisy that is wrapped up in Wolfdog. Your last post was a more than great response, which I can respect. However, I cant respect confronting an actual issue, and having the hypocrite avoid it because he realizes I am right. Why do I care about the nobody Wolfdog? I don't to be honest, but he seems to think that because of his blog, he's Capt. Truth "spreading truth to those who blindly follow!"
I agree with you, Pastors shouldn't be getting paid outrageous amounts of money. On the other hand, I respect that you admitted there COULD be another reason for the house he has other than the salary from the church. That is the whole point I have been trying to making! Wolfdog loves to post his thoughts or feelings on here AS FACTS. They are not facts and he knows it which is why he wont address my issues. Wolfdog loves to point the finger and scream, but in so doing, he fails to realize that he doesn't know the truth, while at the same time being exactly what he accuses another of.
Why do I care about the nobody? I dont, but what I do care about is the fact that people who dont go to our church get on here and see what Wolfdog has to say, and they take him for his word without ever seeing the church out themselves. He wasnt to argue that Mac is stupid, an abuser a liar...etc. In reality what he is doing is saying, "Hello world, I call myself a Christian. Would you like to see how a Christian acts? We call our leaders names, put them down and question all they do!"
That is why I keep posting. Everyone on here, pro-Mac or not, can look at the name calling, the constant put downs and the constant character questioning and realize that what Christ called us too was so very much higher.
Well said Anon 2:15am.
ReplyDeleteIts the age old question Anon.
ReplyDeleteWho deserves more of the blame in a mess like this, the one who abuses power and position, or the one who dares to point it out, and in the process of pointing out the abuses brings trouble and pain. In cases of abuses of power such as this case at our church, the argument can be made that the abuses are not gross enough, they are not harmful to anyone in particular to the point of justifying the mess created by their exposure. I understand that thinking, although I don't agree with it in this case. And of course those who love and support Mac Brunson will view me, the one starting this blog to expose what I believe are abuses of power and position, as the enemy, as the troublemaker, the "clinger to an unregenerate nature", the slanderer, the gossiper and other such things. I understand that too.
And whenever possible abuses in an organization are pointed out, there is conflict as sides are taken. But the facts we are facing here with Donald McCall Brunson must be faced and they must be confronted and explained for the good of our church, and for Mac to continue as an able leader of the church. I'm not a troublemaker. I'm not a rebel rouser. I'm just an average church member. I'm not what you think me to be, even though you disagree with my methods. So it does you or Mac or FBC Jax absolutely no good for you and others to attack me or making accusations about me, or assuming things about me or making me the topic of conversation. So go ahead and paint me as the hypocrite, as the slanderer, as the enemy...that only prolongs the ugly process. Sorry, that's the way it is and you have to deal with it.
I have documented on this blog for 8 months now facts pointing to the abuses, poor decisions, and hypocrisy of Donald McCall Brunson. We now are talking about the abuse of accepting a $300k gift from one of our church donors, which probably would not subject to this scrutiny now if not for the piling up of the other abuses. It seems now we're really stepping on some toes and so the attacks are now intensifying from people like you.
I don't come here to the blog as though I know all truth as you say, and you know that, but it serves your purposes to say that I am. I don't filter posts. I do allow dissenting views to come here and post freely. And if I'm wrong about something here I'll admit it. I post here what facts I know to be truth, and I back them up with documentation and audio clips, and my own analysis just as others do here.
So come here and provide your analysis of the facts, and provide new facts if you have them. But please Anon, keep the focus on the topic here, that is Mac Brunson and his land gift. As I said you do yourself and Mac Brunson and FBC Jax absolutely no favors by coming here to attack me. The SBC is watching this spectacle, and I can tell you that the average person watching this blog smells a rat when they see the facts on this blog about Mac's gift. And then when you come here and attack the blogger instead of addressing the facts, you only cause further harm to the image of our church. But stick to facts or your own personal explanations and analysis to defend Mac, but attacking the messenger only harms those that you seek to defend.
Sorry for the sarcasm, it is a weakness of mine.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are missing is the constant second guessing going on in your blog, especially on this issue, which seems to be mentioned in every article posted.
You second guess EVERYTHING the pastor does.
His sermons, his family, his intentions, his thoughts, his possessions, and on and on and on.
I realize there has been some second guessing aimed at you as well, but perhaps you brought some of that on yourself.
It has been over a year since you started this blog and from what I have seen very little has been accomplished that one could call positive. I am sure you think "exposing" the pastor is positive, but the problem is NONE of your charges against him have yet to be proven.
You have judged the pastor(and others) and in turn you have been judged. I don't know if you could really accomplish anything either at this point if you went public with your identities, sought out a meeting and presented your grievances, as you have done that much damage to many peoples reputations.
My main disagreement with you is your method, but you are adults and have spurned lots of other peoples pleas besides mine to stop so you have to live with it.
The problem is, even if you give up, this will always be an unresolved conflict in your life and will hamper your work with those whom you have accused. I don't see how you are going to get anything changed in the manner in which you are attempting.
I am not saying it is wrong to have disagreements in the church body, but there is a right way and wrong way to resolve differences up to and including parting ways.
I hope that make sense.
Steve W
Hi Steve - I know it seems that we have second-guessed EVERYTHING, but that just not is so. There's been a lot said here, but not everything is second-guessed, just what seem to be a pattern of very poor decisions, and abuses of power and abuses of his congregation. But not EVERYTHING he has done has been second-guessed or judged.
ReplyDeleteI have had this blog not over a year, you're thinking of another blog that was around early 2007.
Not trying to "prove charges" here Steve. Pointing out facts, giving my own analysis, allowing others to give their analysis and opinion of the same facts. Would like for the pastor to address concerns raised here, but I'm not "proving charges".
I don't filter posts. I do allow dissenting views to come here and post freely.
ReplyDeleteThis is not the truth, as my posts have been filtered.
Yes Jon, you are correct. But you're Jon Estes.
ReplyDeleteJon - earlier in the life of this blog and I believe in the first FBC blog as well, those people who posted here wishing to discuss the validity of blogging rather than the issues at hand were rejected. You were a multiple poster every single day wishing to divert attention from the issues being blogged to that of whether blogging was correct. But in the past I'll say 3 months, even those that wish to come here and make the subject about the status of the Watchdog's salvation, his motives, his plank, etc, I've allowed through. So welcome back Jon. Glad to know you're still out there. Did you get any offers from Mac on that job at First Baptist Academy as the headmaster?
ReplyDeleteAnon 2:15:
ReplyDeleteThanks for the 'compliment'... but I prefer to consider all my posts "great". :)
Seriously, I'm glad you were able to understand what I was getting at. I think WD summed it up pretty well in his response to your last post. Whether you think WD or others here are hypocrites or liars are not doesn't address the alleged abuses of Mac Brunson. Even if you have rock solid proof that WD is a lifelong hypocrite, backed up by documents and video tape -- that says absolutely nothing about whether the things Mac has done and is doing are proper, or underhanded, as some of them seem to be.
In other words, you can attack the bloggers all you want personally. But just because a liar says something doesn't necessarily make it a lie. Even liars tell the truth sometimes. So you cannot dismiss allegations simply because they are made by someone you consider a liar. Especially when your opinion of that person has been formed solely on the basis of communications regarding the very allegations you wish to dismiss. You have no independent basis for believing that WD is a liar -- your only experience to draw from here surrounds the allegations about Mac. So in order to prove WD a liar, and thereby dismiss the allegations about Mac as lies (to use your logic), you would have to prove the allegations about Mac are in fact lies because those are the only frame of reference you have with WD. It's a circular logic problem. You are basically saying: The allegations about Mac are lies because WD is a liar. We know WD is a liar because he has lied about Mac. We know the things he says about Mac are lies because he is a liar. Etc., etc., etc. It doesn't work.
Please note -- this is not a defense of WD. Maybe he/she is a huge lying hypocrite. I honestly don't know, and neither do you. But you cannot dismiss the issues raised by attacking the character of a person you don't know, when the only thing you know of them is what they have said on the issues raised. Logically, it just doesn't work.
So back to WD's last response to you. This type of fallacy is pretty easy to see, and when one "side" raises substantive issues, and the other "side" responds with personal attacks, it really does a disservice to the second "side's" position. You are free to do it. But it does nothing to advance the debate toward resolution.
Toward the end, you seem to let on that the real issue you have is with the selection of a blog as the forum for this debate, as it is open to the world. Steve W, in his most recent post, actually admitted that this is his "main disagreement" with WD. So I ask, is your main disagreement with the substance of the issues raised? Or with the method in which they are being raised? In other words, do you see some legitimate problems with the issues raised here -- not that you agree with everything WD posts, but that you can admit that some of this stuff does smell kinda fishy -- but you just don't like seeing out on the internet for the world to see?
(Yeah... I'm not doing well at keeping the posts shorter... haha...)
Watchdog - with over 90 comments in this thread already, I am wondering where the persistent blogger is that accuses this blog of being one or two people who blog anonymously to themselves. Yeah, right. Your fingers must be tired from typing all of these posts.
ReplyDeleteFunny isn't it. You post verifiable facts, links to public documents and audio clips, and point out other obvious problems such as nepotism, appearance of the love of money by the pastor and/or his family, and yet many are more interested in who you are than being concerned about what MIGHT be happening right under their own noses. Sheep are in a unique position to be fleeced. They need a shepherd who will protect them. You will know them by their fruits.
As Homer Lindsay, Jr used to say, "I am not judging, just inspecting fruit and some of it is rotten."
There is no real defense of Team Brunson. The only thing that can be said that does make sense is: "I don't care. I love them so much that even if they are fleecing us and exploiting us, I don't care. Let God judge him." That is an understandable, albeit a dangerous, position. Watch your children, wives and wallets when you give ANY man that kind of trust.
A man that is above board and has a clean conscience will openly address concerns raised about him. One that has something to hide will insist that information be withheld. You figure out which one is Mac Brunson.
Ironic that you put this post up. I recently contacted Collins Builders to see if I could visit some homes on a Sunday. The salesman told me they are closed Sundays. He asked me if there were any of the other days I could come by. He did not tell me why they were closed on Sundays. Since I lived out of town, I told him I would just drive through the community on Sunday when I was in Jacksonville and if I saw something I would call him back. He told me if that was the only day I could stop by, to call and they would have somebody there to meet me. I clarified "on Sunday?" and he said yes. So, I commend them if they are closing on Sunday to honor God, but they need to tell their salesmen to let people know why AND they need to make sure they stick to their convictions by NOT setting Sunday appointments if someone says that is the day they want to come.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog:
ReplyDeleteI located on Celebrators.com website that Dr Brunson will be in Pigeon Forge Tn on Oct 20-23 for four service-conference with seniors. Will FBC seniors get a discount?
I was confused by tonight's message. Mac said we need to be out visiting. But I thought he told us that didn't work anymore? Oh well, I can't follow a guy who can't sound a clear signal to follow.
ReplyDeleteAnd also about the church not being any different than the world. He told us we need to live in such a way that people see that we are different. How, specifically, do we do that without appearing legalistic? Again, mixed messages from Mac. More poor leadership. Just my opinion. :)
"The Brunson-Collins-Holland Link" Someone told me years ago that Beverly Holland was J.D. Holland's sister. I am not sure if this is true....I never thought too much about it because I don't really know either of them, except their faces. Does any one out there know if this is true (or they could be relatives, cousins or something.I think I heard this (possible fact 15-20 years ago. Again I am not sure this is true. does anyone out there know of
ReplyDeletea realtive connection....making the "link" stronger.? Just wondering how that could explain the leak in the early days. Again, I could be dead wrong on the realtive connection but it would be nice to have someone verify.
Oops that was a slip....I meant to type that I had heard that Beverly Holland was J.D Collins sister.
ReplyDeleteWD - did you know that the church spent nearly $100,000 renovating the Children's Building conference room for Dr. Brunson office suite? Did you know the space is 3600 square feet? Amazing!
ReplyDeleteWatchdog,
ReplyDeleteGlad to see you admit your error of your words.
Would you like to make an official correction?
I did not know I had applied for the headmaster job. Though I could do it and do it well as I served as the headmaster of a start up school in Oko, Kwara State, Nigeria.
Hi Jon - I have no knowledge that you applied for the headmaster job. You did mention your interest in the job however in one of our threads, mentioning your experience, that's why I asked.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog,
ReplyDeleteYour graciousness to those who have been arrogant and self-promoting is admirable.
But I pray that your kindness this time will not be perceived as weakness, as some will try to take advantage to further their own selfish agenda, and all the while promoting it as God's agenda. We've seen plenty enough of that, huh?
Just for the record. Dr. Vines lived in The Woods - a GATED COMMUNITY with entrances either on Hodges Blvd. or Atlantic Blvd. I live 4 houses from he lived. IT IS A GATED COMMUNITY!
ReplyDeleteFrank Williamson
Frank - thanks, but that was already noted by the Watchdog above. Yes, Jerry Vines lived in a gated community. Already knew that and its stated above.
ReplyDeleteBut sorry, that's where the similarities end between Vines and Brunson in terms of home.
Vines home was about 1/4 of the value and 1/2 the size. AND Vines had 6 members in his household while Brunson is an empty nester. AND Vines was not given a $300k land deal when he arrived. AND Vines didn't build a $100k office suite when he came to town.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWent ahead and deleted the Anon GW post slandering Jerry Vines and his wife and daughter. Couldn't stand to see it up there.
ReplyDeleteBetter luck next time Anon GW.
First of all... The Collins' are fine people. There was nothing wrong with anyone giving away their own property. The concern applied when it was accepted and that was a judgement call. It was probably poor judgement to accept such a large gift. Money does attach itself to those who give it. But, don't blame the Collins for being giving. That $300,000 to them was probably like $100. to "the average folk" and hey, its only money. Who cares!
ReplyDeleteOKAY ALREADY... WE'VE ESTABLISHED THE FACT THAT BRUNSON TOOK A $300.000 PIECE OF PROPERTY FROM A MEMBER... NOW MOVE ON TO SOME MORE IMPORTANT ISSUES LIKE:
ReplyDelete1. The empty choir loft...
2. The Wed. night "dark" loft( no one up there on Wed.)
3. The loss of attendance due to the lack of choir participation.
4. The lack of consistency of people coming and going because they don't have consistent meetings any more.
5. The total fruit basket turn over in our Sun. night and Wed. night meetings.
6. The new "Theology Driven" information that is so far over the people's head that they will never in the world find Jesus as they can't even read the information sheet.
7. The NO Women's ministry division.
8. The NO rewards for kids division think kids will come "for the love of Jesus". (That's how to get them there to find him folks!)
9. The push to have Sunday School teachers return and teach at night too without even consulting them... Just pushing them to do something they never committed to and without consultation.
10.The lack of the use of hymnals...
11. The "rock" bands going on during Wed. night services in the Ruth Lindsay. "Is God really pleased with that at our fellowship?"
OF MAJOR IMPORTANCE TO THE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF JACKSONVILLE IS:
ReplyDelete1. The dismissal of the Wed. night choir. When the choir was dismissed, it not only released the choir but the members who came with the choir(example... if there were 300 in the choir... potential loss in the congregation was 900 because that may be the choir member, the wife or husband and a kid)... That then affects the finances...
Now there is just the beginning of trouble when faithful members don't come....and releasing them from their spiritual gift is never a good idea. Who decided that one???
Speaking of Vines... He may have not lived in a $300,000. home but you bet cha ... his hand was out a good bit. Only God knows the truth behind all that he too received.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, this is all in God's hands for there is nothing we can do about these mega churches and the money they fork out to their top leadership while the lower leadership lives on less than teacher salaries. Its true...
God will right all wrong one day so do not fret.
In two years time the whole FBC has been turned up side down. It may all shake out but at this moment it is the biggest mess that I have ever seen.
ReplyDelete1. The youth are no longer strong-
The middle school hardly shows up. The high school come to rock out. "Oh Dear Lord".
2. Where there once was a really high standard at the church its as if "anything goes" now. "Just whatever".
3. Once, the choir leader "taught" the congregation the songs on Wed. night and then the choir (who already knew it from learning it in the choir loft) would sing along for a beautiful back up. Now, half way through the song, the music man stops the congregation and questions, "Do you not know this song, I'm singing by myself!" And then... there is a lesson. "Oh, dear Lord what has happened to our strong wonderful fellowship?"
4.. On Wed. night, the young people would practice and practice and practice in the loft, having practiced weeks and weeks with their own Middle school orchestra...Something to be proud of.. Now.. the loft is bare and dark on Wed. "Oh, dear Lord. What?"
Now.. All that said, I like the pastor. I enjoy his preaching. I just want my high standard, well ordered church back. That's it. I miss the order, the organization. The Love for Jesus. The true fellowship brought about from a desire that "Jacksonville Might Know Christ". Now the mission statement is so long, we have to have the paper to read it and then we can't understand it. What's wrong with "That Jacksonville might know Christ?"
Anon(s) posting the above posts today...you might want to consider reposting these under the current article, since many visitors to the site only read the most recent article and not these older ones.
ReplyDeleteWatchdog...
ReplyDeleteAn answer to your question
"Did Mac Brunson know about this $300,000 land gift before he accepted the job as Pastor of First Baptist Church Jacksonville?"
Nope he didn't.
And The Collins have been members of FBC for nearly 30 years. Serving under Dr L, Jr. and Dr Vines. And gave them wonderful gifts as well... BECAUSE (and brace yourself here) THEY CAN!
The Collins are generous because they love Jesus. Period.
So, back off of this faithful family- who just happens to enjoy blessing their pastors.
Your speculations just plant seeds of doubt in others that these men don't deserve.
If you have something you want to ask them- call them up! Ask!
You people are totally off base.
ReplyDeleteJD Collins is not a builder, he is a developer.
Collins Builders (not JD's company)is a builder--but a residential builder- not commerical.
I just went to their website and saw that they only build smaller, production type houses.
So they would have nothing to do with any building the church did.