Thought the people of Jacksonville would like to hear what Mac Brunson believes about hurricane relief here in Jacksonville.
Listen to Mac
Mac actually says: "I hope that if a hurricane hits this city [Jacksonville] that the federal government doesn't get involved. I pray that the church rises up and does what the church is supposed to do."
The gall of that man. Yes, the federal government responded terribly after Katrina hit New Orleans - just ask New Orleans pastor Fred Luter - he preached about his experience after Katrina. But still the federal government has the resources to help in disaster relief. Right now while Mac and the A-Group are planning how to start this satellite, while Mac is planning his next book and how to get back onto nationwide TV and how to create a position for his next family member, FEMA is providing disaster relief in Iowa, and will be ready and will begin to fund disaster relief the minute a hurricane starts heading this way. When the hurricane hits Mac will be heading to higher ground, while FEMA gets ready to help Jacksonville.
Did you ever wonder what 1000 guillable sheep sound like? Listen to the "ameners" after Mac makes his ridiculous statement that he hopes the federal government doesn't get involved after a hurricane. And anyone wonders why Mac can do what he does and not be held accountable?
52 comments:
If you think FEMA was bad just look at that moron they had for a mayor and the inept governor. But then I'm sure people will find a way to make it all President Bush's fault...
Just think of how efficiently your church would function if it were under government control... You might want to wake up though because there are people in our government who are heading that way.
The correct statement is "Hurricane stay away from Jacksonville". Because once it passes the helpless at the beaches then all of Jacksonville will suffer BIGTIME!!!
You may lose your home, car and everything else you own as the Hurricane doesn't discriminate. You will also have to find shelter and who knows what the insurance company will do for you in a downturn market. You may still owe money on your mortgage after getting the insurance check.
No one should ever consider not having FEMA come into a disaster zone. They do a lot of good and they are supposed to that's why we pay TAXES.
Some people just don't get it. All I say is PREACH THE WORD. Stay away from areas you have no knowledge, no input, and no experience. Leave that up to the professionals. You even might want to pray if you believe in prayer!!!
Hurricanes are no joking matter!!!
As a pastor, I understand exactly what Mac was saying and I agree with him.
Let me paraphrase him...
Rise up oh church of God, let's show the world that we can do all things through Christ who is our strength. Let's become totally dependent on Jesus, not the government.
But then I know many pew people who would rather depend on uncle Sam.
My God and Mac's God (One in the same) is bigger than FEMA. Obviously some folks god isn't.
Jon - thanks for clarifying for us what Mac said. But he didn't say that. Listen to the clip. Mac said he hopes the federal government doesn't come to help. Listen to the clip Jon.
I thought you were making a grand finale and closing this blog? Mac is saying he hopes the church will be the church and reach those in need which is what God called the church, not FEMA, to do---you are a bitter person and you really need to move on to another church or perhaps another religion.
Dog,
I listened to the clip. I know exactly what Mac was saying. Your interpretation of his words are wrong. I'm sorry you can't recognize this.
Chris - I'll shut the blog down when I'm ready to, thanks.
Jon - I'm sorry you can't listen to words. Mac doesn't need some pastor like you that maybe makes his taxes to interpret his words. He's a big boy...he's a millionaire, and has a marketing firm that helps him...what he says it what he means. He said he hopes if a hurricane hits Jacksonville he doesn't want the federal government to come here. That's what he said.
Jon - maybe you can help interpret Jeremiah Wrights' words too, huh? Surely he didn't really mean what he said, right? I'll just guess and assume that you weren't too generous with interpreting Jeremiah Wright's words, but yet for some reason you want to help ole Mac out and tell me that what he said isn't what he meant.
And Chris - you missed my point.
My point is that Mac LEADS a church, so if the business of the church is to provide hurricane relief, then why isn't he leading us in that? Because he's not interested in our church helping hurricane victims in place of FEMA. He's more concerned with his preaching gigs, expanding his brand via satellite churches, getting his sermons on TV, etc.
I am glad the preacher doesn't speak for all of Jacksonville. I am amazed every sermon at some of the dumb statements he makes. Why is it that many pastors who cling to "pastoral authority", put themselves in the position of being "authorities" on EVERYTHING. Not all preachers do this but many do. They should understand that many "believe" every word coming out of a preachers mouth is "gospel". Should they not be more responsible in their comments? It makes the preacher look irresponsible and makes the Amen(r) look ridiculous. FEMA/GOVT., already have a credibility problem let's don't give them an excuse to "forget" Jax if the need arises. This is one time I would advise against listening to the preacher.
Now, to the real problem: Why can't the preacher preach the WORD? We don't need "life lessons", political advise, financial planning etc., from the preacher. It looks like manipulation for an agenda. Money oriented perhaps. We have an entire Bible to preach from. People are in desperate need of Salvation, forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. And we get discussions of finances and economics from a millionaire preacher that has no financial problems (as far as we know). Most people will never have the financial "advantages" GIVEN to us that many preachers have. I must contiue to say to the preacher "professors" who want to venture into economics, finances, history, politics, The Greek, psychology, or gardening: PREACH THE WORD!!!!!!!! GOD AND THE CHURCH WANT TO HEAR THE WORD VERSE BY VERSE. Not a verse here and there to support some point or agenda. PREACH the whole COUNSEL of GOD!!!!
Dog,
You need to listen to the clip.
He stated: I pray the government doesn't get involved.
I pray the church rises up and does what the church is supposed to do!
A simple understanding would render that it is a call for the church to rise up and be the church during times of crises.
Your attempt to put Mac and Jeremiah Wright in the same classification demonstrates how low you will go to make the point you want to make.
I would encourage you to also note from scripture that not all prophets, preachers were called to put their hand to the task of building walls, filling sand bags or other type of work. They were called to preach the Word.
Me thinks this is where your problem lies. You are struggling with the Word and the men He calls to preach it.
Jon - Mac is a big boy, and doesn't need your "rendering".
He said that he is praying that if a hurricane hits Jacksonville that the federal government doesn't get involved. He is praying that the federal government doesn't help the citizens of Jacksonville. Sorry Jon...words mean things.
And I didn't equate him with Jeremiah Wright...I'm attempting to show YOUR hypocrisy of wanting to interpret Mac's insane utterings, and your own unwillingness to interpret Jeremiah Wright's insane utterings.
Is he really praying that? That he hopes the federal government doesn't help Jacksonville? Or was he just fibbing, and exaggerating?
It is absolutely amazing to me just how two people can sit a listen to the exact same thing and get totally something different out of it. I am present in the same services that WD comments on and like Pastor Estes notes, I just dont get where WD gets his interpretations. I asked WD on a couple of occasions in these blogs if he/she has anything positive to say about Brunson.(never a reply). I would also like to know what about FBC keeps you coming back week after week to hear this man that you are so fevorishly oppose too. There are many highly qualified and respected Christian men, not just in our church, but in our convention, who have the greatest respect and admiration for Mac Brunson and regard him as significant leader in our denomination. You mention time and again of those who as you say "have drank the kool-aid" however, I believe the shoe is on the other foot. Dozens in leadership and thousands in fellowship feel the opposite as you do and apparently only a few, maybe even if hundreds (doubtful) believe as you have claimed on this site. So I would surmise that it is they, your "Followers" that have indeed drank the proverbial Kool-aid that you are dispensing.
Watchdog,
I would have to agree with Pastor Jon Estes.
Pastor Brunson is making the point that Christians of the churches should be at service to those in need. The government requires us to pay taxes for the relief and aid that people receive from FEMA. And we saw what a great job they did in New Orleans didn't we!
But as Christians we should not require anything from those in need except open arms to accept the love of Christ through our service to them.
Do you see the difference?
The help from the government is conditional.
The love of Christ is unconditional and as Christians we should be the first people to rise up and offer help to victims in our city whether it be homeless people, poor people or victims of major disasters.
Forgive me if this doesn't make sense.
P.S. Watchdog-How'd you like my Kool-Aid Drinker comment?
Anon - I did post 10 things I like about Mac Brunson. You must not have read my post. So yes, I found easily 10 positive things to say about Mac Brunson. Go back and read them.
Just because you've drank the Kool Aid and can't discern that he's a hypocrite and a liar, doesn't mean that other people around our convention aren't catching on. The people of FBC Jax right now are afraid to say the king doesn't have any clothes on. In time they will see that the king's new suit is skin and hair. Those from afar that are watching Mac know that he's stepping in a pile of dog pooh every week, and he's getting in deeper and deeper.
Mac is something other than what we thought he was. And he shows it every week, and more and more people in our church are seeing it, whether you see it or not.
Sorry Robert. I know you and Jon in your zeal to suck up to Brunson want to defend his words.
His words were that he is praying that the federal government doesn't help the citizens of Jacksonville.
That's what he says. He didn't say:
"Instead of the government coming to help, it should be the church."
He could have said that.
He didn't say it.
Then he lied again:
He said that the people in New Orleans have been helped more by the "people of God" than by the federal government. Really? He didn't say THEY SHOULD...he said, past tense: the people of God have done more to help New Orleans than the federal government.
And so he's saying: just like in New Orleans, he wants the people of God to help out here, and not the federal government.
Jon Estes: how did you get the Kool Aid shipped up to you in North Carolina? Or did you come down for pastor's conference and drink a dose?
good to know you are so much wiser, smarter, and intuitive with a greater knowledge of theology then you would assume so many others do. may I ask, how will you repsond when you are publicly exposed? just curious...
Is that a threat Anon? Publicly expose me? Would that help Mac Brunson? We will let God deal with Mac, but we need to deal with the Watchdog.
Open your eyes. Listen to the words of your pastor. Read his words that he writes in his book. Examine his actions. He is a liar and a hypocrite, and to have such exposed on a blog just gets under your skin so much. I'm so very sorry that it does, but exposing me will never change the words and actions of Mac Brunson.
no, it isnt a threat it is a promise, be prepared. and you are correct, exposing you wont change a thing about Mac but it will put a new light on you or who you pretend to be on Sundays. when those who sit around you in church and Sunday school discover that you continue to call our Pastor a hypocrite and a liar (among other things you say) I dont think you will receive the applause or praise you think you will.
Dog,
Words do have meaning and your words saying I want to suck up to Brunson are far from reality.
Please tell me, for what reason would I want or need to suck up to Dr. Brunson? Your words, please clarify.
I don't even post to defend Mac but rather to demonstrate what is right from the wrong you continue to type. In other words, so you will understand what I am saying. My words are not a defense of Mac but an exposure of the misrepresentations you spew.
You are entitled to your opinion but for the most part, you simply get right, wrong.
Again, tell me for what cause I am sucking up to Brunson (your words)?
Now you have me scared. And yes I know I won't have any applause, just scorn and ridicule and harrassment from religious zealots who believe a man blogging about a millionaire preacher who is a hypocrite and a liar is more dangerous than the hypocrite and liar himself.
So bring it on big man.
Dog,
I've never been to the pastors conference there. I have only driven by the church once and that was more than 10 years ago.
You can't understand why I post. It is not about kool-aid but about truth. Something lacking from you.
Watchdog,
The reason you see and hear things differently from everyone else in the church is because your sense of perception and discernment has been distorted by the recalcitrant nature of examining what man has to offer you instead of what God wants to teach you in every service.
No man is perfect, no church is perfect. If you think you can make FBC Jax perfect by exposing the flaws of hypocrisy and lies of Pastor Brunson then you have thought wrong.
Robert - fair enough. But its not "the watchdog" and "everybody else in church". There are many, many people who are heart broken yet silent over what Mac Brunson is doing to our great church. They are praying that God will intervene. I choose to do more than pray.
You keep referring to religious "Zealots" like that is a bad thing. You have looked the word up in a dictionary, right? I know, you will twist that meaning and find a way to turn that against me for saying…
I am really not as much defending any actions or comments made by our Pastor, but his position as established by God and supported and agreed on by our church staff, deacons, lay leadership and the majority of the fellowship. There are several correct, proper, dignified ways to have someone who is acting or behaving questionably admonished or removed. But what you do is exactly what we teach our children to never do - BEING DISRESECTFUL. That is my primary beef with you WD. You are amazingly cynical and do not expect that God is sadden by the hateful and hurtful comments from both sides, by those who claim to be Christians on this blog. And you have instigated all of the comments by the way you manage this site and propose the issues. Finally, for now and by the way, in the last two weeks, you have spoken directly to me twice and other members of my family on several other occasions. It is not my desire to make a scene and I hope and pray that it isn’t yours either…you can chose to continue with this forum, that is your right or you can chose be a “man” of ethics and find a more appropriate way to conclude these issues. But airing the laundry of the church where anyone, including lost people and member prospects, can read is absolutely the wrong avenue and must stop.
Watchdog,
I'm sorry but I disagree. I don't think there are many, many people in the church who are heartbroken but yet remain silent. There may be a few who aren't comfortable with the direction of our church but not many.
Hows the search for a copy of those bylaws coming?
Vines hurt many people over the years, especially after Dr.L passed. those who went to him for explaination were removed from their positions. more people left the church, fewer were baptized and fewer joined in the years after Dr.L. died and while Vines was here alone. I dont say that to knock Vines at all, but to make the point. It just happens sometimes that people in leadership, yes even pastors, good ones, hurt peoples feeling, make mistakes and usually dont ever realize it. I left your church because of several issues my wife and I had with Vines, but we didnt "go public" with a bunch of garbage throwing. there were many of us that were hurt and kept silent and you know what, we are just fine now and have moved on to serve the Lord somewhere else...big deal.
Watch Dog!
You're wasting your time! These people won't get it until they're pastor-less and millions in debt! He preaches propaganda and if you say any different you are the one who gets burnt.
My Father used my terminology before I think but for those who missed it, I am a some-what skilled chess player and you make moves WAY before you need to use them. Then when you lay down the KAPOW they are left speechless.
This is what FBC Jax is headed for and most will not see it coming until it hits them between the eyes!
Mac "Money Bags" Brunson has undermined everything our church was established for-That JACKSONVILLE may know Christ! Not St. Johns county, Jacksonville!
Open your eyes FBC! The time to act is now! The enemy is closer than you realize.
I've been quite off topic but I had to let it out and to encourage WD and all the other "Brunson Booers" know that there is another person out there on the right side.
And really for the first time in my life I hope I'm very wrong.
In closing all I wanted to say was "Good Dog!"
Wow. Hey, did Vines take a $307,000 piece of land offered to him 2 weeks after he came here to Jacksonville? Did he put wife and son on staff? Did he write a book telling pastors not to accept gifts or drive luxury cars, then accept a huge gift and drive luxury cars? After Homer died, did Vines go ahead and build himself a luxury office suite in the new Children's Building?
man, once again, you either missed the point, or you got it and wont respond to the specifics. I never compared what you claim brunson has done wrong with anything vines may or may not have done. And I wont be baited into comparing any details of problems with Vines. That's water way beyond "under the bridge".
So, what, your jealous that someone liked him enought to give, donate, offer a piece of expensive property to the man and he accepted the extravigant gift - so what-BIG DEAL! you have mention travel deals or possible kickbacks and maybe your clueless but preachers everywhere, including vines are compensated with free travel and monitarily for hosting group travel. Its been done for years and is perfectly legal and ligitamate for the effort and work they offer the groups, by the way, not that you care, the compensations comes from the airlines, hotels and tour providers not the travel agencies themselves.
the church has given away cars to pastors and staff for years, nice ones. so if this guy decides to spend his own money to buy a nice ride - BIG DEAL.
and dont make me say it, but no one in vines family were applicable for employment at our church.
Can't defend Brunson, have to continue to drag previous pastors' through the mud.
Nice job anon.
Watchdog it appears that you are being jumped on by the PERFECT CHURCH MEMBERS this afternoon. It would be nice if FBCJ was led by GOD'S MAN. But what if Mac Brunson isn't GOD'S MAN? What if we have some impostor? Just because he was hand picked by Jerry Vines, does not make him the right MAN. What if Jerry Vines was mistaken? Then too who said that Jerry Vines new who GOD'S MAN was?
It could be that we have a PRETEND BAPTIST. Maybe Mac Brunson is just another Rick Warren look a like. Mac does not act like the preachers that we have come to love. You know the ones who actually preach salvation to the lost. The ones who use Jesus as an example of how to raise a child. (not some book that he picked up) The kind of preacher who will preach doctrine, like Paul and Peter and all the other biblical men of God. Could it possibly be that we do not have GOD'S MAN?
But let us say that we have the right preacher and he is messing up big time. What are we to do? We have gone to him and he will not do right. Now what? The PERFECT CHURCH men do not see anything wrong with what Mac Brunson is doing. They have their right to believe what they want. We believe that they are wrong. They would keep Mac's errors from the members. That is their right. We would bring Mac's errors before the MEMBERS; and listen men the list is growing.
We love you brothers. Keep on doing it your way. Someday you will be right but in my opinion this time you are wrong.
"we have gone to him" really? so now someone is coming forward and claiming they have confronted brunson on these issues? i dont think so. and before you doubt his "loyalty" to the Baptist denomination, you should do more homework on his long list of creditials. oh and who told you vines and picked him? that is absolutly false. vines offered a list of possible candidates. many staff and lay leaders in the church visited with and invterview each and everyone and many more. there is enough crap on this site with out your adding any, thanks anyway.
We all know God spoke from heaven to Mac while riding a camel up Mt. Sinai that he was the man for FBC Jax. Who are you all to doubt God?
"ALL" dozens of Godly men and women...of which you must not have been asked to be on the search commitee. is that why you are so bitter - they forgot to ask your permission?
Hi Donny Mac - how about using your talents and history and greek to try and find one passage in the OT or NT that says we are to give 10% of our wages to the local church. Just one, sir... I don't care if Homer Lindsay said to do it, or if your dad taught you to do it when you were a boy. That sounds like "living in the past" and "legalism" to me. Like you, sir, I WANT SCRIPTURE!!!!! Your silence on this is deafening. A hint: use your "smarts" to come up with some scripture to support your sermon topic next time. What a waste of talent and theological education.
anon - we are not jealous or upset that we were not on the search committee. We didn't actually become jealous and upset (according to you) until we began to see the obvious signs that we had a liar, hypocrite and charlatan fleecing us and not preaching the Bible or mentioning the name of Jesus. (I do not consider it preaching the bible when you pick a self serving topic and then hunt and peck scripture that out of context appears to support your points.)When the yes men layed down and rolled over, we figured a blog would be nice. :)
anon - both Vines and Brunson have gone on record saying that Vines approached Brunson BEFORE we ever had a search committee. Apparently, Vines was not willing or able to give in to all the concessions the "Team" wanted. However, the committee, and J.D. Collins did whatever they had to do, and after several attempts, the deal got done. Wife and son on staff, wedding reception for son, FREE condo on Amelia Island for a year, $307K land gift, book deals, A-group, staff "cleansing" of called ministers who were not yes men, preaching gigs, by-law changes, and on and on. And during all of that, a few dared email him with some questions (remember his whining about how tough his job is and you should be a baptist preacher for a day complaining?) which he refused to answer. Even had Vines come and chastise the congregation for having the gall to send an anonymous email to Mac. (GASP!) Then Paige Patterson exhorted seminary students to pray for poor old Mac, who despite all of the above given to him and his family, "never got a honeymoon."
After reading your blog for a long time I am confident that Mac will soon be gone and you again will be searching for a pastor. THEREFORE, I would like to submit my name in advance.
Here is what I would require (which is far less than Mac got):
1. A house on a piece of land valued at only $2,000,000.00
2. A new car annually. Doesn't have to be a Jaguar though.
3. A job for my son and daughter. My wife prefers not to work but both kids have college degrees and need jobs.
4. A rich young husband for my daughter.
5. An air conditioned dog house for my Lab so I don't have to bring him to work with me.
In return I will:
1. Preach the unadulterated, unvarnished, uncompromised Word of God without regard to whom it will offend.
2. That I will not speculate about the role of the US government in our city.
3. That I promise never to go to the Holy Land with or without any church members.
4. That I will publicly rebuke and condemn Rick Warren and all of his cronies.
Now with all of that said, I hope you will keep me in mind when Mac is gone...
What makes you people think that the actions of the PASTOR can't be discerned or verified? Luke stated in the book of Acts that the Berean's "were more noble than those in Thessalonica,in that they received the WORD with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO".Concerning airing legitimate issues that confront your church,that they should be done in secret when you have a bull-headed Pastor who refuses to entertain any other views than his own,his family,and the A-team. Well I suggest you people who believe this to throw out your Bibles because the New Testament writers aired many of the internal problems plaguing the early Church[cf.1Cor.5].I again warn people that just because a man has assumed the position of the Pastor does not automatically means he has been called by God.Judas was so trusted by the 11 disciples that he was entrusted with keeping the MONEY[John 12:6].Greed has always been a defining sign of one who has not been called to the Pastorate[cf.Balaam Jude 11;1Pet.2:3].Several Bloggers have lamented that Dr.Mac is drifting away from preaching the Gospel to teaching about history and felt needs at the expense of displaying the Person and Glory of who Christ is and what He has done!!! I was just surfing the internet and came upon and article on the USATODAY.COM web site about the fact the people professing Christianity now believe there are many paths to God.There is a quote from a former Southern Baptist Convention president by the name of Rev.Frank Page,of Taylors,S.C. and he states "people don't know there faith because the "GOSPEL,ONCE CLEARLY PREACHED IN VIRTUALLY EVERY Protestant Church,is rarely heard in the the 21st century.The number who teach a clear doctrinal Christianity are a minority today.How would people know it when they never hear about how to be saved?" Dr.John MacAuthur Jr. has stated "that in all his years of ministry he has never seen a time when people were so gullible".Inspite of the overwhelming evidence given through-out the New Testament to a coming apostasy(2Thes 2:3),it still amazes me how blindly people will follow A MAN who is displaying characteristics that the Bible clearly portray as error(secrecy,hypocrisy,lording his postion,greed and abandoning the Gospel message).Finally just because the majority agree with something does not make it RIGHT!!!! Remember Jesus said the GATE and ROAD to perdition was WIDE and MANY THERE BE THAT GO IN and ON IT.Through out the Bible both O.T. and N.T. there has always been the MANY and the FEW(CF.Noah,Lot,Elijah,et.al).Again Dr.Watchdog don't let these naysayers deter,frustrate and goad you to respond inappropritately,some may be ignorant of SCRPITURE and just don't understand and others are like the Pharisees who are just the blind leading the blind. Dr.Watchdog welcome to the Gospel destroying,Church corrupting PURPOSE DRIVEN MOVEMENT!!!!
Anon,
I will attempt to provide NT Scripture to help with the understanding as to why we tithe. I see our current situation as grim as the WD. I have noted in past posts I do not support WD's position on the tithe.
I feel we are commanded to tithe. Yes,that is 10% of the "first fruit".
1Cor.16:1-5 covers this issue.
16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store,as God hath prospered him,that there be no gatherings when I come.
Hebrews Chapter 7 goes into great detail how Melchisedec and Abraham dealt with the issue of tithing.
I am still a tithing member of FBC. I do not understand our new direction. I know we are enabling our Pastor to trudge on as long as he has enough money. As a Christian I have a duty to give,after all it all belongs to Jesus. The Lord will deal with Mac in due season. I hope we can last that long if the Lord tarries.
Hi Bigbird - with all due respect, I would suggest that the verses you rely on have nothing to do with tithing of wages, and specifically Abraham never tithed of his income or possessions. He did give some of the spoils of war, but you need to study that in its context. Many preachers throw that out as an example (albeit an OT example) of why the tithe is "required." Please take a minute to read this article called "How Much Do You REALLY Know About Tithing." You will see there is no biblical support, OT or NT for giving 10% of our wages to the local church. Please cut and paste this link and let me know your feedback. Thanks.
http://tithing.christian-things.com/howmuch.html
It is my opinion that if you are giving money to a corrupt priest(modern day preacher/pastor), who is not "bringing the WHOLE tithe (that you give) into the storehouse (he is keeping and/or wasting 80% of it), then you are robbing God by giving that money to a local church without demanding accountability and good stewardship of it.
Also, to you and others: Please read all four chapters of Malachi. (It is a short book!) Ask the Spirit to help you answer the questions: Who is this book being written to? Who is corrupted in these verses? (the priests who received the tithe or the Israelites who had been giving it?) and who was "robbing God" in that context. How so called Men of God can preach this verse as a mandate for local sheep to pay a tithe to the local church is beyond me. Yet so many of us believe WE are robbing God and are under a curse. Any preacher that will use this text in that way is an instrument of Satan and is himself guilty of robbing God. Just my opinion. How do you see these verses?
Maybe RM can and pastor Estes can shine some light on this too?
Mac actually said if you give 3% of your income, you are robbing God of the other 7%. Where does he get that from? He said from his dad when he was a boy. Yet he used the language found in Malachi 3:10. Very, very poor exegesis in any event. And very poor biblical teaching.
Watchdog you constantly berate Mac for saying one thing and yet doing another. In your post almost a month ago you said the time had come to close down and that you only had a few more issues and then a grand finale---when asked about this you say you will shut it down when you are ready---seems to me like you may be the liar and one who does not want to be questioned
Chris - I'll shut the blog down when I'm ready. Go away.
Regarding the tithing issue AGAIN: In 1 Cor.l6 vs. 1-5 emphasis on vs. 2. The "churches" were in homes, not sanctuaries. If one church was in need then another church with more material wealth took up a COLLECTION for them. There is no mention of 10%. The verse says "as God has prospered him". It is conceviable that if someone had no money that they would not be included in this COLLECTION. This COLLECTION was for the poor Saints in Jerusalem,living in caves during this time of persecution. Rom: l5: vs.26: "For it hath PLEASED them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem." This was a COLLECTION, a "contribution", there is no mention of the tithe or 10%. And, "first fruit" is not mentioned in this passage.
Hebrews Chp.7" The book of Hebrews is to the HEBREWS. Notice how it is presented in the Bible. "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews". This passage was written prior to the law (approximately 400 years) concerning tithing in the Old Testament. Melchisedec was the King of Salem, not a pastor of a church. No one knows who he was, as he was without father or mother. He appears as a type of Christ. As the passage says he was "Made like unto the Son of God". The 10th part he took of the spoils (vs.4) were from the slaughter of the kings mentioned in vs.1. Again "first fruit" is not mentioned. The spoils are mentioned in Gen.14: as goods and people divided as the spoils of war. Notice this 10th part was given to an INDIVIDUAL not a church.(This is prior to the law).
The point being that tithing is an Old Testament law. Paul speaks to the Hebrews. The church is not under the Old Testament law in any way. If one wants to give 10 - 20- 30% or more that is done by choice not because they are required by law(O.T.) to do so. You cannot put the New Testament church back under the law on one point (tithing) while being under Grace in all others. The law was given to the tribe of Levi to TAKE the tithes of the people. We are not of the tribe of Levi, nor can they be located today. Tithing is an example not a requirement.There is no command to Gentiles to offer tithes it was only for the Jews.
Fellow Bloggers,
I hope this shines some light on the whole tithing problem. A tithe (from Old English teogoþa "tenth") is a one-tenth part of something. With that being said, it may not say 10% flat out but we all know that a one-tenth = 10% no matter how you cut it.
Lets connect the dots. We are instructed to give a tithe, and a tithe is one-tenth, and one-tenth is 10%. I'm an idiot when it come to math and the difference is as plain as day and night.
Now what have we learned? If it says tithe it means one-tenth, which is 10%
Just because Brunson is "misusing" our tithe does not give us the right to deny God what is already his.
Oh and what was with the service on Sunday? We should be working on Heavenly treasures not earthly. If he wants to do financial counseling he should do it on his time not God's.
I'm thinking on a name change LittleBird is way to easy to figure out. I shall be BirdDog from now. on.
10:09 P.M.: Excellent points. I believe if preachers were as interested in saving souls,and preaching JESUS, as they are in placing people of the church back under the law, and trying to place them under a curse if they don't tithe, more people would be SAVED!!! I would ask the preachers what is their 1st priority. We hear more about money than souls. Keep in mind money and all material things even the earth will one day be destroyed. But souls will live forever either in Heaven or hell!!!
Anon,
You bring up an interesting view. The Lords work has to have a mechanism to receive money to support church activities.
I believe the collection of the tithe is the way we are to do this.
Here is my link to support this view: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/tithing.htm
To the poster attempting to reset the WD gmail password: nice try. Your IP address has been captured and forwarded to Google.
Bigbird: You are linking "a mechanism to support the church", applying the TITHE as the mechanism, with a COMMAND to tithe. The church also is supported with GIVING. The New Testament church was NEVER commanded to tithe. Taking a collection, or giving is not a command to give 10%. Also the N.T. church did not put people under a curse or call them satanic if they do not believe in tithing. This is false doctrine. Please remember christians are under the BLOOD not the law.
If we're going to talk tithing in light of interpreting the OT, we all should be giving over 30% of our income and things to the Lord. Read through the OT and mark all of the tithes required from the people, the temple tithe, the tithe of the firstfruits, etc. Most of these tithes weren't required every month, but throughout the year on different occasions. When you add each of them together, it totals over 30% of what the people made (via income or crops, etc) each year.
I'm thankful we're only challenged to give 10% from the pulpit....
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