The Sunday Times Union article title was "What Would Jesus Blog?" - the implication being that Jesus would not be blogging anything derogatory about an abusive church leader, and certainly not anonymously. Of course not - Jesus wouldn't dare speak any harsh words to high and mighty religious leaders like Mac Brunson, would he?Well, if we're going to ask "What Would Jesus Blog", and if the newspaper is going to give Mac the platform from which to deny that he is earning $300,000 per year - without the reporter demanding proof or requiring a firm number...then let's ask a few "What Would Jesus Do" type questions of our own in the next few articles.
Let's examine Mac's actions in light of what Jesus would do, since Mac says he is our "undershepherd".
First question we'll consider:
What Would Jesus Earn?
Pehaps this would have been a good question for Mac after he said he doesn't make "anywhere near $300,000". If Jesus were our pastor, what would he earn? If Jesus were here on earth, and he were our pastor at First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, would he:
- be earning a salary 10 times the average church member?
- would he be driving a Lexus and Jaguar?
- would he have spent $100,000 of God's people's money to build himself a 3000 square foot office building in a building constructed not for a pastor but for the children of FBC Jacksonville?
- would Jesus use his position as pastor to give jobs and salaries to unqualified family members who didn't go through any legit interview and hiring process?
- would Jesus take a salary of up to $400,000 total compensation? (come on Mac, make a liar out of me and release you and your wife's total compensation number - don't forget to include ALL allowances, and honoraria from your speaking engagements and holy land trips and pastor's conferences)
- would Jesus take a gift of $300,000 from one of the church donors when Jesus knew that his people had already given him a generous salary and benefit package, and knowing he had told other preachers to not do this....or would Jesus perhaps taken the ethical, high road and politely encouraged the man to donate that gift to the Lord's work?
- would Jesus charge $750 to "exhibitors" so they could have a table in our church during the pastor's conference to inform the pastors of their ministry? (what a deal - $750 to use a table at the church - but you do get two awesome badges, use of two luxury folding chairs, and those awesome power strips and a cloth drape! We'll even run the vacuum for you - we might add that we'll give you two parking spaces and free, unlimited drinking fountain water) Not trying to be overly critical. But if we're going to ask WHAT WOULD JESUS BLOG, then it stands to reason that we should look at the pastor's actions himself and compare them to what Jesus would do.
So come on...WHAT WOULD JESUS BLOG? I don't know if he would blog...but I can tell you what Jesus DID do...he drove the guys from the temple that used the temple to enrich themselves. No blogging, but he drove the money-hungry scoundrels out of the temple. No trespass warnings delivered by his hirelings...no sir...he was a man and faced them himself and drove them out.
Let's face it FBC Jacksonville...we have entered a church age where there is HUGE MONEY TO BE MADE IN THE NAME OF GOD AND "MINISTRY". We've always known that, as we've watched televangelists operate and enrich themselves over the past 20+ years. But wake up FBC Jacksonville...YOU ARE NOW PART OF THE GAME - YOU ARE NOW FUNDING IT! Its not just televangelists, the day of money-making pastors and families is here on our doorstep as evidenced by:
1. Mac and wife are making hundreds of thousands of dollars per year and living lavish life styles....where does the money come from? From the people of God who give their tithes to God.
2. Son is making a salary of around $50,000 (by Mac's own admission) at our church as a man with no seminary training and holds a "Director" position at our church...he would never have been given any ministry responsibility in our church with a 4-year degree from a bible college at the age of 22...except that his last name was "Brunson". Where does the money come from for Trey's salary and bennies? From the people of God who give their tithes to God. If last name is the qualification for employment, then please someone contact Doyle Brunson to hire him as our Director of Texas Hold 'Em.
3. Even the guy who was here in town with the "Soles 4 Souls"....that son patted on the back so hard Sunday morning his fillings nearly came out....wonderful ministry and all of that...but he is pulling a salary of $265,500 (that's pretty close to $300,000) and his COO is pulling $108,000 from his non-profit Christian ministry. I'm not criticizing him for this - perhaps he needs that money and does wonderful things with his high salary. But my point is: where does the money and labor come from that allow him to operate this ministry and earn the hefty salary from his 501(c)3? From companies and God's people donating shoes, money and their time. What a business model - start a 501(c)3 and pay yourself a huge salary as the CEO.
4. Even Maurilio Amorim, our church marketing consultant (who by the way is a consultant for the Soles 4 Souls guy)...has a very successful business where he helps churches apply business marketing principles to help them "brand" their church to appeal to the "target market". Where does the money come from to pay Maurilio for his church marketing? From God's people, of course. At least Maurilio is operating in a competitive market of other firms and he is providing very valuable services in his web design and print media function of his business. Maurilio doesn't demand money from a congregation, and doesn't hold "special offerings" for his pet projects. So I'll be very kind to Maurilio in that regard. But STILL...God's people giving money "to God" have large amounts of money given to Maurilio's firm to "market" and promote their church...there's something not quite right about that.
5. We now are selling advertising space at our Pastor's Conference to increase revenues. Selling advertising. In the church. On the image screens. In the dining room TVs. I know, its hard to believe. I'm sure they would tell us the noble things done with this promotions money; but no matter - the ends don't justify the means. Click here to view the "promotions plan" yourself.So what WOULD Jesus earn?
57 comments:
So what WOULD Jesus earn?
Our Lord Jesus Christ would earn the stripes from the whips, the beatings, the barbs, the darts, and He would be the Last [AND the First], He would lead and guide us sheep. He would be a True Shepherd.
I understand Mac likes to believe he is suffering for Christ. But on the question of compensation and money, benefits ... It does seem large. Now to be fair as WD has mentioned, other Christian leaders are in the same boat and practices. I am not envious of Mac or others earning large sums of money.
This is truly sad. It would be better if the leaders were humble, put the sheep's interests before their own interests. From my thinking, all this would be solved or resolved, when one looks at Our Lord Jesus Christ as The Source of everything in life. And not dependent on money, prestige, power or praise from fellow men and women.
But such is human temptation. When we look at the world, we try to model ourselves as the world. But when we look to Our Lord Jesus Christ, we will model ourselves as Our Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe all the Christian leaders WD cited in this post, if they drew lesser salaries and perks, were humble and pious, they would do much to advance the work for the Kingdom of God.
That is my humble opinion.
WWDD - What Would Dog Doo???
Too funny this morning Dog. Seriously though, I wonder what the compensation packages of other pastors around the SBC are? Is the Mac in line. What are other churches stance on nepotism? Is FBC Jax typical? Enquiring minds would like to know.
Personally, I have no problem with a CEO that runs a $20M operation making good $$$. Heck, my business (that grosses alot less tahn FBC) pays me close to what Mac makes and you better believe that my most trusted employees are family members. If there is anyone that should be chastised here it is the compensation committee that negotiated Macs package. The fact is that those on this committee are also well compensated CEO types. Makes sense to me. LAstly, Jesus was a successful business person as well as he had a treasurer to handle the $$$. My question for Mac is how much he gives away in charitable contributions, is he blessed to be a blessing or just live a nice liefestyle? That is a much better question to me.
I am Big Tuna and I approve this message.
How about, what would Jesus teach about tithing?
1. In Mt 23:2, 3, 23 Jesus taught his Jewish disciples to tithe and obey the scribes and Pharisees because "they sit in Moses' seat" and because he was discussing "matters of the law." Jesus could not tell his Gentile disciples to tithe and never commanded his Church to tithe after Calvary.
2. Jesus Himself did not tithe!!! Although money was common in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 17 texts which describe the contents of the tithe.
3. Biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Jews living outside Israel and Gentiles could not bring food tithes.
4. NT giving is: freewill, sacrificial, generous, joyful, not by commandment or percentage and motivated by love for God and lost souls.
5. The SBC will not enter dialog about tithing? Why
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
Dr.Dog...Jesus may not have blogged on a computer because they didn't exist...And Jesus did not write except when doodling in the sand in which no one knows what He wrote...But Jesus did have His Agent the Holy Spirit empower frail men to write exactly what he wanted people to know...And we have those words in form of the HOLY BIBLE...That I say was the 1st century's form of blogging!!!
Jesus threw the MONEYCHANGERS out of the temple!! He condemned the Scribes and Pharisees. They were the "preachers" and and the religious men of the day. They were political and everything they did was for "show".
Jesus had nothing, born in a manger, worked as a carpenter, owned no worldly goods, was Crucified for us, and was buried in a borrowed tomb.
Do you know any preachers that would accept that contract?
Readers - please pray about what God would have you do with your year end giving. The food bank, the homeless mission downtown, World Vision, Salvation Army, your neighbor whose car needs new tires, your family member who could use some groceries or gas, or your own wife and children who could use some clothes and shoes.
Why, oh why, would you give "God's money" to FBC Jax where it will be hoarded and wasted on self promotion, marketing, and conferences and executive homes, huge salaries and globe trotting travel. Please, please don't give the tithe to FBC Jax. As the Bible says "the tithe is the Lord's." So lets make sure "the Lord" can get it to His people and it does not stay with FBC Jax's selfish uses. Thanks and God Bless.
Mac, Trey and yes men of FBC Jax (you know who you are) - imagine with me for a second that Jesus returned during the pastor conference. He would be overturning all of your booths and then marching up to the stage where the "emcee would be thanking the sponsors" and would call out all the big shot celebrity millionaires. He would then encourage his true followers to simply walk across the street and do some real ministry to the poor and hurting right outside the doorsteps. Mac would be put in his place for sure. And I imagine you would be slinking away, ashamed and exposed.
And all those that worship Mac and money would have a decision to make. Do I get mad at Jesus and tell him how great Mac is, or do I humbly submit to Him. Many of you would actually try and defend Mac and yourself. But he will tell you on that day "Depart from me, I never knew you."
Your conference, and now your church, is a joke. Others already knew it. Now even your own members do too. You were supposed to fleece the flock gently and humbly so they don't even know what you are doing. But to do it so brashly and brazenly shows poor leadership. Poor Gina Ford has the toughest job in Jacksonville. Thank God for Maurilio. It will take all of his marketing genius to make FBC Jax and its discipline committee and lovers of money seem attractive to real Christians. Just my humble opinion. :)
Watchdog - I am looking for a church home for me and my family. I am very much interested in your church because I love discipline. I want to subject my family to a committee of men hand picked by the pastor. Will I be brought before the committee if I join and do not tithe? What if I don't make it to every service? Will they have some goons hand me a letter banning me from the property? I also really like "small group" studies. Why have some faithful laymen teach me the Bible when folks like me can sit around and tell each other what we think the Scripture says and how it makes us feel? And at least if I get banned, it seems the committee will allow my children to continue to perform, even though I can't be there to watch them.
Sounds like a great church. I will definitely be driving downtown, crossing those bridges, circling around in those parking garages to find a apace, walking several blocks to the auditorium, and then digging deep in my wallet, all so I can hear a "cutting edge" choir and "cutting edge" music leader before I get a good dose of history and a message on discipline, apologies and slander.
Yes, the future looks bright at FBC Jax. The miracle of downtown jacksonville. I will see you all Sunday. And I will be sure to invite my friends and neighbors and lost people to attend with me. I am sure they will really love it even more than I do.
WD said:
Son is making a salary of around $50,000 (by Mac's own admission) at our church as a man with no seminary training and holds a "Director" position at our church...he would never have been given any ministry responsibility in our church with a 4-year degree from a bible college at the age of 22...except that his last name was "Brunson".
Correct me if I am wrong, but your former "esteemed" music minister R Brooks, as well as Middle School minister B Barton - neither had seminary degrees. As a matter of fact, R Brooks did not even have a 4 year Bible college degree- just a 4 year undergrad degree from a secular univ. And B Barton's degree was from Hyles-Anderson Bible College (yes, that Hyles).I am confident that these men made over $50,000/per.
Know your staff history before you comment on it- and be consistent WD.
James Smith
You are entering an age old argument and that is about what the preacher makes. Its always too much for some and too little for others. The bottom line is that your Personnel Committee and/or Search Committee hired him and made him a salary offer which he obviously accepted.
If you have a problem, take it up with them. If you need to know exactly how much he makes then take it up with the Budget Committee because they know the truth.
If none of these committee members will give you the correct information then that should tell you one of two things.
1. You are not to be trusted and they aren't telling you a thing.
2. Your church is in a bigger mess than you think.
I would find out who the chairmen of each of these committees might be and then invite them to lunch. You can get a lot accomplished over a hamburger...
2 Peter 2:2-4
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
James Smith - you are living in the past. Why bring up past staff members? :)
Also, you miss the point. Those guys had actual ministry responsibilities, were recruited and hired by the church, and their last names were not Lindsay, Vines, or Brunson.
WD's point is not just that Trey is unqualifed, but that he did not have to compete for an open position at our church. The position was created and he was given it because he needed a job and his dad gave it to him. Period. How does bringing up past, long-time, beloved leaders that fled as fast as they could when Team Brunson arrive help your point?
"2. Jesus Himself did not tithe!!! Although money was common in Genesis and essential for sanctuary worship, money was never included in 17 texts which describe the contents of the tithe."
Jesus had Peter pay the temple tax from the coin that came from the fish's mouth. So as not to offend.
Jesus kept the law perfectly. He was perfect. But you are right, the tithe was not always money.
After His resurrection, there was NO reason to tithe. It was a Jewish law of the OC and there were many 'tithes'which was way more than 10%. There is no more Levitical priesthood. Our churches are not Jewish temples. They are simply buildings that hold the ecclesia. We don't really even need them. But, we have made idols of them.
The New Covenant does NOT teach 'tithing' or even building elaborate buildings. It teaches giving to those brothers and sisters in need in the Body... which can include those who are fulfilling the Great commission.
Take the money you all are giving to keep Mac in lavish living and give it to a poor single mom who has no health benefits or needs her car fixed to get to work. That is also doing the Lord's work with your money. That is an offering pleasing to the Lord.
Sam
I agree that talking about a pastor's salary is not blog worthy. The fact that he continues to lie about it, and hide it, and take large gifts, and beg for money, and travel the world, and buildings sit in disrepair, and his wife and son are on staff, and he profits from promoting Holy Land trips in our church bulletin and web sites, and he makes thousands vacating this pulpit and preaching in others, and ... he tries to make it about his six-figure salary, is blog worthy. Nice try, mac. That is only the tip of the iceberg that no one would have questioned had you not done all the other things in addition to that generous salary and benefit package you negotiated. Good for you for negotiating "like an NBA player" for your salary and bennies, but shame on your for the land gift, nepotism, and other abuses.
RM - YOU take them to lunch, and make sure they have your address so they can deliver a discipline committee letter to your home and ban you and your wife.
I guess Mac hasn't "put the fear of God in you" yet.
James Smith: There is a huge difference between the three. Rodney Brooks was and is an accomplished musician and choir director. He has prooven himself far beyond the accomplishments of a 22 year old inexperienced person.
Additionally, Dr. Stanley brought him to Atlanta. This church is one of the premier churches in America today. Dr. Stanley's teaching ability is second to none in the SBC. He could have hired anyone he wanted, but he chose Rodney. Rodney probably did make over $50,000, but he was well worth it and spent 18 years at FBC. He also had the backing of Dr. Lindsay, Vines,the people, and the choir. It's a shame he had to go.
As to Bob Barton, he grew up in the church. He led the Junior High Dept. for years prior to taking over the Singles Dept. Bob was responsible for thousands of children getting saved and serving the Lord not only in Jacksonville but all over the country when the teenagers went on tours or helping less fortunate churches. Yes, he probably made over $50,000, however he served over 25+ years as well.When he started he probably made less than $20,000.
Don't compare apples with oranges. You obviously no very little about how things operated prior to the B Team. Additionally, Bob Barton could have done a better job at FBC than the B Team since his wife and son would not have been on the payroll and he's a lot better preacher. Unfortunately, the powers to be wanted a big name. Well they did get that.
As to seminary degrees. That's exactly why they were so good. No need for seminary degrees. Most of the greatest pastors and soul winners never went to a seminary...Spurgeon, Billy Sunday, Dwight L Moody,etc,etc. Holding a degree from a seminary holds no special place with the Lord Jesus, as a matter of fact he didn't have one either. He didn't need one, he just trusted his heavenly father. From what I see, seminaries would be better off closing. Once you enter, they teach you everything other than what's in the BIBLE. They also try to change your belief in scriptures and lead you into being a follower of their leader or their school which could be very disheartening, especially after you find out you can't cut it or were never called to be a pastor in the first place. I recall one mega church pastor saying he never wanted to pastor a local church. He got his wish. He doesn't pastor. Why do 2,000 of them quit every year? Also, why do thousands of them never lead one person to the Lord or even a single convert baptised. Hope this helps you understand more fully what's going on. I've been watching this for over 60 years inside not the outside. Pay more attention to what they do rather than what they say. Whole lot of difference.
I'll be glad to come and take them to lunch if you promise to pick up the tab. I'm hardly afraid of any discipline committee either here in Texas or Florida or wherever.
One comment about Maurilio operating in a "free market":
True, but unfortunately the people of FBC Jax did not get the advantage of a competitive bidding process to ensure the best qualified firm was selected to run our website and other promotional functions the A-Group performs. You see, Mac sole-sourced the A-Group, brought him to town with him. We never looked at any other firms. Why? Because Mac knows and trusts Maurilio. That's great, but does that necessarily serve the interests of our church? Maurilio is like a son to Mac, and thus its just another example of the people of FBC Jax having to pay another F.O.M. (friend of Mac).
Tuna - I have a very fine pair, thanks for asking.
Your intial post here Tunafish misses the point.
This is not a family owned business, so your example doesn't apply.
If you choose to apply examples of a "$20 million operation" to the FBC Jax...then you must also realize that "$20 million operatoins" have strict nepotism policies that explain under what conditions family members may work in the same organization, how they are hired, separation of performance evaluation and merit raises and separation of direct reporting. And whatever your business is, you are operating in a very fierce, competitive environment, and you're not demanding that people give you money, you don't hold "special offerings" to raise money when you poorly budgeted and you have a leaky roof at your business with no capital or operating funds to repair it. So I love the selective application of business principles that are applied to churches. Give the man the CEO pay because its a "$20 million operation"....but they stop there, and won't be open about the CEO's compensation package...and worse the church "CEO's" proclaim that their vision for the organization is straight from God and those that oppose him aren't "trusting Jesus".
And besides, the question here for this article really is...What would Jesus Earn. I'm asking the question. Mac's and the newspaper's question is: What Would Jesus Blog. Fair enough. But now lets look at Mac: What Would Jesus Earn?
Next we'll look at:
What Would Jesus Preach
Would Jesus behave in the pulpit like Mac Brunson behaves? Would he treat people that he talks to like Mac does? Very eye opening!
Just how much is the going price today, to preach salvation messages to the lost. If one is not paid a huge sum of money, with added perks, and sideline benefits, does that mean that the preacher would not preach about Jesus to the lost. What about witnessing to a lost person, should we not be paid for leading someone to the Lord. If we as witness for the Lord are not compensated would this mean that the Gospel of Jesus Christ would cease? Just what price is a soul worth to a preacher? How much did the pulpit commitee pay this man to come here and to get him to preach about Jesus, and to further the Gospel,(which he doesn't do). If he had not been allowed to put his wife and son on staff would he have refused the "CALL" of God on his life and refused to come here. Do you think 30 pieces of silver multiplied to an enormous sum at todays million dollar rate would have been acceptable?
Dr.Dog...1st of all Jesus didn't negotiate a multi-hundreds-of-thousands dollar contract just to come and preach here on earth...Philippians chapter 2 states He made Himself of no reputation becoming a poor servant of His Father....Brunson is a covetous and greedy fraud posing as a minister of righteousness...Hey Mac there a story for greedy swindlers like yourself and you know what happened to him don't you[Luke 12:13-21]!!!!
Whoa dog, must of stepped on your tail ole man. Unlike some of these posters that simply respond to you, I find it delightful to respond to the responders, especially when they get Tuna-fishy with the gossss-pell. No-It-All's and X-Perts draw my ire.
Anyway, how was your golf game today since you seem to be one of the re-tired com-puuter x-perts.
I was not the one that compared FBCJax to a biz but the anology was there and I swam with it. Homers) ran the church with an (iron did swim) fists, just ask Guinell.
Tuna Out.
Anon 11:25, my point needs no help. WD inferred the past. I was just making a point to her point: "he would never have been given any ministry responsibility in our church with a 4-year degree from a bible college"
Anon 12pm- you said: As to Bob Barton, he grew up in the church. He led the Junior High Dept. for years prior to taking over the Singles Dept. Bob was responsible for thousands of children getting saved and serving the Lord not only in Jacksonville but all over the country when the teenagers went on tours or helping less fortunate churches. Yes, he probably made over $50,000, however he served over 25+ years as well.When he started he probably made less than $20,000.
Don't compare apples with oranges. You obviously no very little about how things operated prior to the B Team.
#1, Jesus and Jesus alone was responsible if anyone was saved.
#2, I KNOW (as opposed to "no")more than most about the history of FBCJ. Brother Bob did a great job. As a matter of fact, I learned a great deal from him. However, the truth of the matter is that Bobby was, shall we say, going thru a difficult time in ministry, when Dr. Lindsay gave him a job.
You also said, "As to seminary degrees. That's exactly why they were so good. No need for seminary degrees. Most of the greatest pastors and soul winners never went to a seminary...Spurgeon, Billy Sunday, Dwight L Moody,etc,etc. Holding a degree from a seminary holds no special place with the Lord Jesus, as a matter of fact he didn't have one either. He didn't need one, he just trusted his heavenly father. From what I see, seminaries would be better off closing. Once you enter, they teach you everything other than what's in the BIBLE. They also try to change your belief in scriptures and lead you into being a follower of their leader or their school which could be very disheartening, especially after you find out you can't cut it or were never called to be a pastor in the first place."
I see that you have never been to seminary. Dr's Vines and Lindsay were great Bible preachers, even scholars- as well as great soulwinners- and they were seminary trained.
I have no dog in this fight. I was just chiming in and encouraging WD to be consistent in his/her arguments.
James Smith
The question "What would Jesus Earn" posed in this article, Watchdog, comes from a tainted sense of logic on your part. You should not have written this article as it also demonstrates your low level of Biblical knowledge and basic intelligence as well. Let me share with you why this is:
By asking the question "What would Jesus Earn", you are implying that Pastor Mac and Jesus are equal on some level. This is not the case and you have even stated so in previous blogs that Pastor Mac is not Jesus despite your own belief that the Bruson supporters worship the pastor as if he is Jesus(which isn't true).
So equating the pastor to Jesus to try and argue your point about the salary is your first mistake.
Secondly, Jesus was God. He owned everything. He created the world and he's the giver and sustainer of life. I'd rather have all that than a 125k salary. There would be no reason for Jesus to have a big salary. He was a carpenter and earned a decent living as well as the creator of the world. So you can't make the comparison you are trying to make.
If you don't approve of how the finances are managed at the church, then move on. Obviously, the media isn't on your side nor is anybody else at the church. So what profiteth thee to blog?
Mr. Smith: Dr Lindsay and Dr Vines had preached for 30 years and 20 years prior to their ever having been bestowed a Dr Degree by Luther Rice Seminary.
Dr Lindsay never claimed to be a scholar. He was just a man called by God, to preach His word. And was without a doubt the most effective, servant of the Lord that this church will ever see. He could preach Jesus and win souls to the kingdom, because of his humility and his complete committment to God. He had the compassion of a servant and a pastor. We will never see another like him.
Lindsay went to the seminary, but he really didn't need to, as his gift was from God.
I have never gone to a seminary either. My gift is also from God. I have studied the Word for probablylonger than you are old. I doubt that your time at FBCJ can match mine. Blessings to you sir.
Robert L. Peeples said, "If you don't approve of how the finances are managed at the church, then move on.
I have been reading this blog for a number of months now; and, each time you post you, you say the same thing. You sorely lack a spark of originality by continually repeating yourself.
You also said to WD: "Obviously, the media isn't on your side nor is anybody else at the church".
Again, you are so very, very wrong in your assumptions.
Big Tuna said at 4:43: "Homers) ran the church with an (iron did swim) fists, just ask Guinell."
I personally know, Guinell too ran with iron fists.
From Christa Brown's Blog:
"BaptistPlanet calls on the Southern Baptist Convention's mission board and other Baptist agencies to fully disclose their budgets, including executive salaries. "For too long," it says, "the salaries of Southern Baptist executives have been hidden from those who contribute the offerings that pay them. It has created the perception, perhaps a correct one, that the executives would be embarrassed if their high salaries were revealed."
Why do people tolerate from a mega-monied religious organization what they would never tolerate from any other sort of non-profit entity? Why do they continue to give money to an organization that won't even tell them how much the highest executives are being paid?
December 5, 2008 10:32 AM"
Paul in his letter to the Hebrews chapter 13 vs 24 told the brethren to salute each other. He did it again in Romans 16:16' II Cor 13:13; Phil 4:21; Col 4:15. Again, in Titus chapter 3 vs 15. Would handing out a trespass letter count? I didn't think so either.
Robert Peeples said::..."The question "What would Jesus Earn" posed in this article, Watchdog, comes from a tainted sense of logic on your part. You should not have written this article as it also demonstrates your low level of Biblical knowledge and basic intelligence as well":....Robert Ive read many of your blogs and believe me you have absolutely no business challenging Dr.Dog's knowledge of Scripture or anything anyboby else for that matter!!...Your Biblical knowledge leave much to be desired....Your not as Biblically literate as YOU think you are....We as believers are commanded to imitate Christ..So asking the question of what would Jesus do concerning a salary is a legitimate question...
Watchdog,
I get a kick every time I see that you have removed the link to my blog profile in my blog ID.
Remember one thing though, as pastor Brunson said in a recent sermon, someone is always watching you....
Oh Robert, you have me quaking in my boots.
And someone is watching Mac Brunson too.
This seems to be a smear tactic for anyone involved with the church. The guy that gave the shoes away is now being attacked. I did some research - his charity is neting over 40M in three years and they give away alot of shoes. As a CEO of a company, he is underpaid. I met this guy - very real and down to earth and should not be brought into this deal. It seems innocently he was brought in to give to the community and might have been connected by Maurilio- big deal. That is what a good consultant does! Candidly, I liked this guy and spoke with him after church and on Tues and he is the real deal!
Sometimes as we observe people, we see what their behavior should be. Especially in the area of finance. This passage in the OT, indicates how finances are to be handled in sacrificing to the Lord not just accepting it without it costing us something.
In II Samuel chapter 24 vs 21-25 there is an interesting event. Earlier in the chapter David confessed his sin and that of his people. Gad, the messenger of God, tells David, now an aged King, to go up and build an altar in the threshing floor of Araunah, the Jebusite. Picking up from vs 21-25 listen to the word: "And Araunah said, Wherefore is my lord the king come to his servant? And David said, To buy the threshing floor of thee, to build an altar unto the Lord, that the plague may be stayed from the people. And Araunah said unto David, Let my lord the king take and offer up what seemeth good unto him: behold, here be oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing instruments and other instruments of the oxen for wood. All these things did Araunah, as a king, give unto the king. And Araunah said unto the king, The Lord thy God accept thee. And the king said unto Araunah, Nay; but I will surely buy it of thee at a price: neither will I offer burnt offerings unto the Lord my God of that which doth cost me nothing. So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. And David built there an altar unto the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord was entreated for the land, and the plague was stayed from Israel".
David had great respect for his Lord. He paid money for that property knowing that the payment had to be made in order to gain pardon from God, prior to the burnt offerings being made. Notice the plague was lifted by God because David purchased the land. Entreated (plead or beg). David went out refreshed that God still answered his prayer.
Its a real shame that we don't rely on Gods' Word totally. As Christians we are to go by Gods standards, not the worlds standard. An arrangement or an agreement may look fine in the eyes of the world, but how does it look to God. We are always on display, every area of our lives must be circumspect. We are also on display to a lost world, watching us to see if we are the "real deal", this makes a difference when we witness to the lost.
Ecc. 1:2 "Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher; all is vanity."
Complaining about our faithful Pastor and his salary is nothing but vanity. What good can come from it? Do you think God wants us spending our time on this or more worthwhile topics and efforts? Is it possible that the accomplishment of God's work is hindered by the amount of money a pastor makes? No, I don't think so. I think it's far more likely that His work is hindered by believers consuming their time and effort in bashing their pastor. I'm sure that God's focus is on much greater things such as seeing lost people getting saved. God has the omnipotent power to help us get out of our trivial mindsets and help us see clearly the things we need to concern ourselves with and to also enable great spiritual victories to occur regardless of what we humans deem as right or wrong.
If we have faith in God, He can work on our hearts and help us with our confusion and temptation to get upset about earthly things.
"What would Jesus earn?"
Perhaps the idea that this answer is not in the Bible should be an indication to us that we should not worry about it and put so much emphasis on it. Jesus wants our love, faithfulness, praise, service, and devotion. After these things, would He really be concerned with money?
WD,
This is that "other Brunson" pastor from Dallas.
I have a suggestion for you: be bold enough to identify yourself to the church, bring formal charges against the pastor, and then submit yourself to the final authority and decision of that local body. If that's not the way your church works, then you should be quiet and move one.
I'm no fan of Mac Brunson as a preacher; I've stated that here once before; but your failure to follow a biblical route of discipline smacks of cowardice and makes you more than vulnerable to MB's accusation that you are nothing more than an Internet gossip; Paul would call you an ecclesiastical schismatic.
hb
www.spurgeonscigar.blogspot.com
www.firstbaptistparker.org
WD,
"This is that "other Brunson" pastor from Dallas."
"I'm no fan of Mac Brunson as a preacher; I've stated that here once before; but your failure to follow a biblical route of discipline smacks of cowardice"........Pastor Hal you accuse Dr.Dog of cowardice but you fail to make mention of that coward Brunson sending his stooges to a deliver a trespass warrant to an innocent family and thus kicking them out....Mac did not follow Matt.18 instuctions either....Mac is the coward,a bully,a hireling,a slanderer(Klouda),covetous,self-absorbed dictator yet you attack the Dog!!!!..I'm a Pastor as well and the reason that Pastors are out of control(Gilyards,etc)and doing the things that they are doing is because the good Pastors will not stand with the truth!!!!I believe you can read an see that Dr.Dog has legitimate concerns about Mac that members need to be informed of....Save your pompous(smacks of cowardice)advice for yourself!
10:5l: Yes, Jesus is concerned with money as He knows it corrupts. Is it not in the Bible "MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL".
Matt:6:21;"For where your treasure is; there will your heart be also".
1 Timothy 6:10: "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows".
I think it can be said the demand of these mega preachers and indeed the mega SBC covention, for MONEY, fame, high living lifestyle, has compromised their ministries, and has made them suspect as to their sincere calling to GODS WORK, in the eyes of many people.
Also, it is not just the money that has arisen as a problem with the preacher, but the list is very long: nepotism (money again), anger at the congregation, demands for following the rules, while writting books that they don't follow, land deals(money again), talking badly about the church out of town, while taking their money (again), asking for money (again) to put the preacher on TV. Trips, time spent away from the pulpit while getting paid by the church (money again). And, SERVING TRESPASS NOTICES TO MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH WHO HAVE SERVED FOR YEARS, PRIOR TO him COMING HERE AND TAKING OVER.
The list of infractions is indeed long,as Watchdog has listed previously. It goes on and on.
By the way, if you don't have a problem giving money. Why not just give yours, and let the rest of us do what we feel is right regarding giving our money.
Plus, if you were incorrectly served a TRESPASS NOTICE, would you be so quick to give your money? Fear never leads to love. Some preachers will never MAKE the people love them. It must be freely given. An added thought: There are preachers called of God, and then there are those that use the church, the Name of Jesus to profit themselves,: You judge, because God will.
Hal Brunson: How can anyone person bring up anything against a pastor that holds all the cards in the deck? The deacons would not allow anyone on the floor to comment without their approval which they would never do. You would be ushered right out of the building. Then you would be receving the trespass warning. Get real.
WD and the other small group of disgruntled members: move on. This is tiring. Dr. Brunson is going nowhere- this is where God placed him. He will most likely be here long after you are gone. He is God's man for this hour for First Jax. As they say, "get on, or get left...", because the train is moving.
J Smith
James Smith: If it is so tiring why come on here? We are getting a lot of good information on line and other sites where dictatorships within churches is rampant. We would never have known about Ocala, Daytona Beach, Bellevue, etc,etc. No, we need to adhere to the policy of transparency, openess, and to the place where everyone is important not just a few. Leave us to do what we believe is important....seeking the truth. You do know that knowing the truth will set you free. So why should this little blog which has had only 16,000+ hits in 17 months worry you. Obviously, you do not believe in the priesthood of the believer since you want to silence dissent. Is that your idea? Have a nice day.
This article is not related to this post, but I found it very humorous.
NYT Blogs: Seen on Craigslist: The Online Market for Senate Seats
Ah, bribery in the age of the Internet. This sort of feels like a Shouts & Murmurs piece.
Mac needs the church to draw his salary. The church is dwindling. Anybody know the attendance number last night? 1600. Dr.Lindsay used to say he loved preaching on Wednesday night because he was preaching to the real membership of the church. In the past we would run double that number.
What does that say about our church?
Anon 8:37am...great blog you are very perceptive....James Smith God din't send Mac to you He allowed you to chose Mac[1Samuel 8:1-22].
When I see that we are marketing and selling "emcee recognition and thank you from the stage" that tells me we are at FBC Jacksonville willing to sell the very words uttered in the sanctuary. That scares me.
Does that not concern anyone? Is that not just a dangerous line to cross? You give me a certain sum of money, and I'll say certain words from the platform that you will like and will benefit you. Show us the money, and you tell us what to say on the platform. Is that what our church is about now? Are we that BRAZEN that we will do this and openly sell it? We promote certain ministries based on their ability to pay for it? We're auctioning words and kudos to the highest bidder? Who has $12,000? Well if you fork it over we'll promote your product or ministry out the wazoo for you...we'll treat our members and our pastor guests as though they are a "target market" to be advertised to. Want to sell your "Bible on CD" series? Pay us and Jim Caviezel can come here and promote it and our sheep will think its a "testimony" and not a "commercial". Ouch. I feel duped. I thought it was a testimony. It was a commercial.
Come on people. Were you a bit alarmed at how Trey patted the Soles 4 Souls guy so hard on the back this Sunday that his fillings nearly came out? And did that ministry pay for that recongition given by Trey from the platform? Did that ministry pay us for putting a promo video up on the I-mags? Why not? If we're charging ministries for promotion time at the PC, why not charge this ministry? Or do we only charge certain ministries for the privilege of promoting themselves? If that is so, what is the criteria? Who decides who pays and who doesn't pay for promotion time? Does Mac and Trey decide which ministries have to pay to be promoted, and which ones get the promotions for free?
This is what our church was always accused of doing. Don't you remember rumors in Jacksonville that the more money you give the closer you can sit to the front and other phony charges against our church? Now apparently if we give enough money to the church we get our business or ministry recognized. If we give enough money or land to the pastor, he'll promote our relatives' business during one of his sermons.
I warned FBC Jax last year that hosting a non-evangelistic fund raiser for Jewish hospital at our church because certain deacons wanted it, no matter how noble the cause may or may not be...was just not a line we should cross and it opens us up to all sorts of shenanigans.
We are now seeing those in our face - selling marketing and promotions in our own sanctuary.
And no one seems to care.
It must be of God, if "God's man" is behind it, right?
While I am sickened to watch this governor in Illinois be exposed for his "pay to play" schemes, I can't help but be reminded of our own "pay to play" scheme - if you want recognition at our church for your ministry, you're gonna have to pay to play, baby. What is so odd about this governor is not just his schemes, but the BRAZENESS of him willing to do it and talk about it. We are no less brazen when we develop promotions plan to "sell" to ministries the privilege of having marketing and advertising access to the people of FBC Jax and our visiting pastors.
Let it be said:
THE EYES AND EARS OF THE GOOD PEOPLE OF FBC JAX AND OUR VISITORS ARE NOT A COMMIDITY TO BE SOLD TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER BY MAC AND TREY.
I too watched last PC, when Jim Caviezel gave his "testimony". At that time, I had no clue as to what was going on, and I believed it to be a free promotion or endorsement. But not for money given in exchange to promote their product.
I was naive. And some ways I still am.
Over time, all these little actions will build up and lot of members will wise up. Maybe there are more Christ like ways one can run a church. I do not know how. But this does not feel right.
Please check this post by Debbie Kaufman:
Prostitutes Go In Before Priests By John Piper
The first rule of thumb in most scandals involving finance or improprieties of that nature is "Follow the Money." People who are by nature "greedy" will not change their nature with a flip of the switch. When an opportunity presents itself they begin the process of finding ways to exploit or make that opportunity advantageous to them. It is the ultimate dangling carrot - the access to the means to be able to make the situation or opportunity work for "THEM."
Team Brunson will take every advantage of their position and access to make their life as easy as possible. It is evident in how they have handled most situtions since coming to FBC - WD has outlined them precisely so I won't go into detail - people who read this blog know of them very well. "Follow the Money."
I read the postings of some of the people that Mac attaches himself to and it reflects what is important to him. Let's take Maurilio for one - this guy likes the finer things in life - nothing wrong with that to some extent, but he flaunts it. He disparages others not so fortunate. I picture him sitting at some posh restaurant with tea holding his pinky up as he sips while looking out the window to those who aren't worthy to polish his Gucci shoes. He sickens me - but this is who Mac finds palatable and looks to for advice, albeit marketing advice but is that all really? Look @ Mac's lifestyle...you could draw comparisons. I don't mind people having a nice lifestyle that is not the point, but I can't stand someone who feels entitled, doesn't earn it honestly or flaunts it at the expense of others.
The pastor should reflect to a level of degree of comparison to the average person in his church. If the average person in a local church owns a $250,000 home, the pastor shouldn't live in a $1,000,000 dollar home, drive a jaguar etc...it doesn't mean that the pastor can't live in a $400,000 or $500,000 home...I don't want to manage the pastors finances, but he has to relate to the people in his flock. This pastor does not seem to feel that way. He relates to the top 1% - 5% of the church.
"Follow the Money"
WD - where did Smyrl's blog go?
Maybe Maurilio and his staff are retooling Smyrl's blog. Maybe they will allow comments? Two days ago, their links for posting comments was messed up and there were other irregularities (that is links not working type).
I am appalled at what I read. How distasteful to question one's salary. Where do you get this idea that a man serving God can only make so much?
It's almost like you want the church to function on a socialistic basis. There should be no individual earning above average. You know, kind of like spreading the wealth around. Everyone should be on the same playing field.
That's ridiculous. I guess Obama has lured you into the trap and you have drank the kool-aid so far as to say church salaries should be socialistic and the tithes should be spread around. Stupid Liberals. Dumb dog.
WD, you can post this if you wish.
Here is Jim Smyrl's post:
Catholic Cults Part 3
Not every cult meets every mark of a cult by exact definition. Unlike the clear mark of adding authoritative sources to Scripture, the second mark of a cult is not as easily detected within Catholicism. The second mark of a cult is subtraction. One may question whether or not Catholics truly take away from either Christ’s perfect deity or His perfect humanity. Catholics affirm Jesus as the second Person of the holy Trinity, as well as His full deity and full humanity (CCC, no. 464). That affirmation stands as the current official dogma of Catholics. However, in practice, Catholics are moving towards subtracting from Christ’s deity by subtracting His sole sufficiency as Savior.
Granted, the issue is not so much regarding deity, in the purest sense of the term, but rather the sufficiency of Christ. In the same manner that many Southern Baptists exalted the doctrine of inerrancy while negating the foundation of Scripture’s sufficiency for all of life, the Catholics have upheld the deity of Christ but minimalized His sufficiency by elevating Mary. The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “We should find a continually developing veneration for the sanctity and exalted privileges of Mary.” This veneration of Mary is on the slippery slope of sin moving towards a title for Mary as “Mediatrix” or “Co-Redemptrix.” The definitions of these titles include Mary as co-author of salvation along with Christ. In the Vatican News on the Mediatrix Petition to the Pope, we read that in the 1990’s more than six million signatures, including Mother Teresa and Cardinal John O’Connor, were gathered in support of Pope John Paul II declaring Mary, “Co-Redemptrix.” A lay movement called Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici (”The Voice of the People for Mary Mediatrix”) provides petitions that can be signed by Roman Catholics at large and sent to the Pope in support of officially declaring Mary, “Co-Redemptrix.”
There is little doubt that this movement will migrate like all other sinful movements (James 1:14-15) towards the denigration of Christ and the elevation of man or, in this specific case, Mary. Catholics may claim in their writings and liturgy the perfect deity and humanity of Christ, but a proper view of Christ involves far more. If Mary is included in a complementary or necessary sense for our salvation, then reason compels one to conclude that Christ alone is not sufficient for salvation. If Christ is not sufficient for salvation, then He cannot be perfect deity and perfect humanity. Something in Him must have been lacking if Mary was needed in such a role. We would have no problem assigning the nomenclature of “cult” to any new group today that sought to make any person in history a necessary complement to Christ’s work on the cross. Our struggle with assigning such a title to Catholics is not due to a lack of evidence, but rather to a lack of theological conviction as well as relativistic infection within the body of Christ. Translated: we are no longer passionate about the integrity of Jesus and are so afraid of offending a friend that we allow the nature and character of God to be demeaned in the name of peaceful relationships.
I'm still laughing that your identity has been unmasked and you were trespassed from the church. So how are you going to get all your "insider info" now???
Killer Flamingo.....WHAT WAS THAT??....I've never seen anyone blog in tongues!!!
KILLER FLAMINGO: YOU GIVE BIRDS A BAD NAME. Don't you know that over 52% of the population voted for Obama? Most of these 52% attemd Baptist churches just like the Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. You get what you voted on. If Americans want socialism, that's what they will receive. Have a nice day.
We use to run 7000-8000 on Wednesday nights when Dr Lindsay preached. Several thousand had dinner prior to the service. Many worked late and just came to the service due to driving constraints. Has the dinner attendance on Wed. night also slacked off? I can remember Dr Lindsay walking up and down the aisles while preaching...those were the days. Guess we'll never see that again.
Smyrl contradicts himself in at least four places in his diatribe. At a later time with closer inspection, will try to expose this error. In the meantime, put Southern Baptist in place of Catholics except where there is mention of Mary, just put overbearing pastor, and you have basically the same scheme. There are four glaring errors, see if you can find them.
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