Just a few updates on Pastor's Conference 2009, which is only a month away!The conference website says that the women's conferences and premium sessions are now free of charge. The $50 fee for "premium" session and $30 fee for "women's sessions" is now waived. That is great, and we hope that anyone who has registered already will get a refund of the $80. If you already paid your registration fee, be sure to contact Trey for your refund. The cut in fees is a nice gesture I suppose on behalf of Mac, Trey, Maurilio, and the Nexus Promotions firm in Atlanta...the rationale for waiving the fee is that the "economy is tight", which is to say: "registration is so far off from last year that we need to do something to increase attendance so we don't embarrass ourselves." The economy wasn't doing too well when the PC 2009 website started the registrations last fall, so I suppose its a bit disingenous to say they're cutting the fees to help people out...in a marketing and promotions-driven mindset you try to maximize revenues by charging as high a price as the market will bear. But we do thank Team Brunson for the price cut - this must have been a tough decision on their part given how they have to pay the A-Group and Conexus for the marketing and promotions for the conference.
Also, the good people of FBC Jax want to thank the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association for being a sponsor this year of the conference. According to the conference website there is only one
"sponsor" listed - the BGEA - so apparently we were able to extract a fee from the BGEA of between $5000 and $12,500 for them to be "sponsors" - depending on which "promotions package" they were sold by Trey and Trey's promotions firm, Conexus, in Atlanta. Way to go Trey! We are so proud of how well you are able to "raise money" for the Pastor's Conference (even though we know it is not you, but the promotions firm - your dad left that little detail off when he patted you on the back for "raising $100,000" last year just before Dr. David Jeremiah spoke) - for 20 some years we were too ignorant to know we could actually get away with selling promotions and advertising at the conference, but now that you and your dad and Maurilio are here....CHA CHING...and the sky's the limit now! We eagerly anticipate seeing how many other sponsors you were able to sell...will we get Jim "Jesus" Caveizel to come and sell us on the tape series again? We were all so blessed by that commercial last year.We also thank the exhibitors that have paid $750 each for the use of a table, a cloth, two chairs, and a power strip. According to the conference website, we have SEVEN exhibitors who were lucky enough to have their organization's hyperlink posted on the website...this would mean that they purchased the $2500 "SPECIAL advertising package" since this is the one that allows them to get their hyperlinks on the website. Way to go Trey! Cha-Ching! Keep selling those promotions Trey!
So let's see where we are at, and what Trey will be congratulated for by the EMCEE, Mac Brunson, on the stage as he was last year (we'll assume there are 20 exhibitors who paid the $750 for a measely table, drape cloth, two chairs, and a power strip):
BGEA - Platinum Package - $12,500
7 "Specials" @ $2500 - $17,500
20 Exhibitors @ $750 = $15,000
Total: $45,000
That is great! Ain't God good? ALL THE TIME!
$45,000 is great, don't get me wrong Trey...but last year you hit $100,000, which according to your Dad was twice your salary. We expect at least $100,000 this year too...$45,000 is good since it really is not money collected to offset costs to provide services...its just selling access to the eyes and ears of our attendees...its gravy so to speak...but we need all the gravy we can get in these hard economic times.
Also, those of you who were sold the promotions packages - like the "Gold Sponsorship", "Silver Sponsorship, and the super duper "Platinum Sponsorship" - and other exhibitors - the deadline was yesterday to pay the other 50% of your advertising fee. Make checks payable to "Team Brunson". Thank you for your support!
One last word to the exhibitors and sponsors: give Trey a call and ask him how many people are registered for the conference. The fees charged by Trey and the promotions firm are presumably based on their claim that there will be "over 3500 Christian leaders" at the conference to whom you will be able to reach with your message (see the different fees charged by Conexus for their other conferences). If they are far short of this number, you might want to ask for an adjustment of the advertising rates being charged.
Also, if you decide not to attend, you can still get a refund of your registration fee, minus a $50 cancellation fee...if your cancellation request is approved by Trey.
Just trying to help everybody out!
Now Trey, get busy selling those sponsorships, time is running short! We would hate to have to adjust your salary downward!
39 comments:
And you call Pastor Brunson rude, arrogant and condescending?
Rather than post again on the previous subject, I ask one more time. Take out the questions about gifts (which are perfectly legal for Mac to accept and for people to give) Say what you want, but that is that.
Anyway.. moving on, this post is pretty wheels off man. One sentence after another slamming the Brunson family. Seriously... I believe you are obsessed with them.
I hope you realize you are being silly and stop all this. If you don't though, I can only assume you are super wealthy and can defend yourself in a court of law when the Brunson family does find out your identity and files a lawsuit against you for slander. Make no mistake about it, you are slandering your own Pastor and his family.
Finally, please..... if you choose to ignore everything I wrote, please sincerly answer this last question. You didn't last time. Do you believe you are furthering the Kingdom and fulfilling Matthew 28 by the words you print? Do you believe you are pleasing God by what you write. Are you turning people to your Church and to Christ or away? I don't want a reply about what "Mac Does". I want a reply about what you think about your actions.
Thanks.... Scott
Hi Scott - yes, accepting gifts are legal. Never said they were illegal gifts he accepted. Said they were "unethical". Its unethical for a leader of a 501(c)3 organization to accept large, six-figure gifts from donors to the organization, unless, PERHAPS, the gift is fully disclosed to the members of the organization. Sorry you can't accept that fact, and can't differentiate between legal matters and ethical matters. I won't judge you too harshly on that, since Mac himself uses the standard of "legality" when it comes to his actions - he said that the last time he checked, the federal government said he could live wherever he wanted to, and that HE was paying for that house. So you and Mac are of the same mind in regards to six-figure gifts given to pastors of three weeks tenure. That means you're both wrong. In my opinion, of course.
If I am slandering the Brunsons, they can find my identity out by hiring a lawyer and filing suit and getting the records from the ISPs and can find out who I am so I can be served a lawsuit. And I say bring it on.
Your question of furthering the Kingdom...I don't know if I am or am not furthering the Kingdom. That is not the purpose of this blog to "further the Kindgom". Its to expose the abuses of Mac Brunson. That's all. Am I pleasing God with what I write? If I am at all exposing the wrongs committed by Mac at our church, I think that might in some measure be pleasing to God. But I'll let God (and you) decide that. But answer me this then, Scott: Are Mac's attacks against the FBC Jax when he calls us a "hotbed of legalism", or when he yells at us and treats us with disdain from the pulpit, and when he coldly tells us to fork over 1 million in two weeks to avoid going into debt...is God pleased with that? Does that further the Kingdom? Did it further the Kingdom when Mac embarrassed some folks who left his sermon early last week? Maybe they were lost sinners who will never darken the doors of a church now because the ugly preacher humiliated them as they left without him knowing their circumstances.
So I don't mind Scott you questioning my motives, or suggesting that I'm harming the Kingdom or that God is displeased with what I write. But at least use the same standard you apply to my words here to Mac's actions and words as the Pastor of FBC Jacksonville. I submit to you that any harm that comes from pointing out his abuses should be blamed on Mac, not on those who did the pointing out of the abuses.
Watchdog, are you single?? Your aggresiveness and firey attitude is such a turn on to me :-)
Sorry to disappoint, but the WD was neutered at age 2. Snip, snip.
Darn...Im looking for someone who is passionate about what they believe in. Too many men these days are like doormats....just let people walk all over them.
One of my favorite parts about the promotions/exhibitors application (click on the hyperlink to see the application) for our pastor's conference is the $75 charge for "extra badges" ...gotta love that. Gig 'em for $750 for their table, a cloth, a power strip....then REALLY gouge 'em when they want an extra name badge..."Extra name badge? Not a problem, sir....that will be 75 dollars - we take Master Card and Visa".
75 dollars for a $3 name badge....disgusting, but you have to respect the brazenness. Go get 'em Team Brunson and Team A-Group!
I have to say that there is a lot that has been written in this blog which really nails Dr. Brunson but it really is a turn off when WD goes to name calling. That is something that we all discourage our kids from doing and I think it damages your cause.
I know someone mentioned that the "discipline" letter was not on church letter head and possibly WD had been duped. Since the "accused" are no longer coming to FBC it seems to me that there is no reason for them to with hold their identity and it would give more proof to those who come here to read and are so skeptical of any of the accusations against the church. Would they be willing to tell us who they are?
The letters received by the couple accused of owning the blog are on letterhead - and their story of what has happened to them is real. You can see the letterhead on the first - the second letter telling them they couldn't see their child perform was originally an email, then it was followed up on letterhead also.
I believe quite a number of people know who the couple is, so its no secret really. But they have no interest in putting their name here on this blog else I think they would have done it already.
If you really want to confirm their story and the letters, and the trespass warnings, ask the Pastor or ask John Blount.
Sorry you don't appreciate the name calling...but the watchdog using a few colorful adjectives every now and then to describe the antics at our church pales in comparison to the actual antics themselves and the damage done to the church.
Well said Anon - the temperment and attitude of the leader of an organization will eventually be reflected in the organization. While there are still many lovely, faithful people at FBC Jax, the anger of the pastor, his continual desire to "bully" his listeners...it has cast a coldness over the congregation. Many are hanging on. Many don't quite understand what is happening. Another reason why I am so galled when he chides us that we don't treat the church with respect and sacredness. It is he who needs to be preaching to himself about not being rude and treating the church with respect.
By the way readers, I don't know if you've noticed the bump in advertising air time on local radio. Today I heard on FM radio a radio advertisement for Mac's new sermon series that I believe is "The God You've Been Searching for" or something like that, and that visitors will receive a free copy of Mac's book by the same name. It was funny to hear the disclaimer at the end of the commercial where the narrater says about the free book "limit one per visitor and while supplies last".
The entire direction of this church is a problem to many that don't accept the "world" coming into it. Please read the prior blog. "Rude is as Rude Does". The last two comments 8:02PM and 10:36AM, regarding the End of the Perfect Day commentsabout the spiritual graciousness that has left the church today. Many have "problems" with the church being turned into a "pulpit for sale" format. Advertising has taken precedence over the spiritual emphasis of past conferences. I must admit some past conferences have had an "edge" of ego ridden personality types. But the earlier conferences were mostly about Jesus. This current trend of advertising, money/business being the main focus is not setting well with those of us who do not like the world in the church. Regardless of who or what group "sponsors" this type adventure, "selling" the pulpit or selling IN the pulpit is not acceptable. My guess is it doesn't please God either. A sure way to find out (if one is truly saved) is to pray and sincerely seek the Lord on the matter of advertising and selling in the church. Notice the folling mention in the Word of tables and seats.
Matt:21:12:"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all of them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves",
vs.13: And said unto them, "It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves".
Mark 11:15: "And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
vs:16: And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple".
vs.17: And he taught, saying unto them, "Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves".
Irrefutable evidence I would say!!!!!
Scott from Texas-
Brother, focus on the TEACHER Mac Brunson not on the Watchdog.
Watchdog, on occasion, with passion, and sincere disgust for this teacher of history Mac Brunson, does use colorful words.
Being a Vet. I've heard many christian men in the heat of their service to this country, use more of these adjectives. What you read here is a battle for the CHURCH IN THE WORLD. Churches are going to hell in a hurry and few know why. The why, if you will stay and read, Scott, will be evident very quickly. Not speaking for Watchdog but I do my best to watch my language. When I do get out of hand its is usually for some extreme situation. Well we have an extreme situation here at FBCJ. You may not like the thrust of Dog's language but I can assure you that he is a solid christian who speaks volumes of wisdom. His passion for the WORD THE CHURCH THE CAUSE OF CHRIST will soon be evident to you as it already has been to me and others.
We at FBCJ have been blindsided by a liberal, compromising, teacher who only on occasion PREACHES THE GOSPEL. Salvation seems to be something of an after thought while church growth, at any cost is the norm.
In short Scott Mac Brunson would be better off serving his Lord in some college and not ruining the church at FBCJ. IN MY HUMBLE OPPINION
The Lost Shepherd: Lessons from Ted Haggard
"Yet, in my mind,the true gospel is only strengthened when Christian leaders lose their public sense of absolute authority and spiritual perfection. Anybody who presumes to talk on behalf of God should remember that the treasure we possess (the gospel) is carried in fragile, clay jars.
One of these days we Southern Baptist leaders and pastors will learn to stop pretending that we are above the inner struggles experienced by sinners. The lust for power and absolute authority, the lust for fleshly gratification and paralyzing materialism, and the lust for personal recognition and praise are all inner demons that every SBC pastor and leader faces. The only way to prevent leaders from acting out on such temptations is to realize that these sins are common to fallen man, to never bestow absolute authority or unbridled freedom on any man, and to resist the idea that any Christian leader is beyond being questioned.
The SBC church, institution or agency that believes the "leader" is beyond simple accountablity will find that leader has the capability to ruin the organization. When and if that happens, the fault will reside not only with the leader, but those laymen who were unable to see that a lack of transparency is the first indication that something is wrong."
Anon 3:39 &
Thy Peace 4:57
I appreciate the way you expressed my thoughts and innermost feelings about Brunson. Your perspective and comments were much better than I could have said or written.
Thank you.
My pastor in SC has decided against attending the Pastor's Conference this year for the first time in a number of years. He does not know of this blog, to my knowledge; perhaps the pastor-to-pastor communications have been working more effective than we know.
Anon 3:39 Good for you! Amen! Watchdog has done a service here that would be impossible to do in the church. As many have stated, if the infractions happening in the church were not so grave, then there would be no need for this blog. These types take over the established churches rather than start their own. They takeover established churches because the "money" is already there and the opportunity to make more money is there. After all it takes a big church to "afford" to pay the preachers salary plus his wife, son, and looks like in the future, the son-in-law. Who knows. This one has been "taken over" because the trustees and deacons have not only allowed it, they have encouraged it. It is a sad day at FBC now. I don't know if this church can come back from this. I think it may take a very long time. We have lost so much, not only the money, but the spirit that was in the church. The mission to get people saved. The concern for their fellow christian. Now every one is watching every one else. It's like being in an occupied country of sort. Every one must be very careful what they say and under no circumstance voice any negative opinion about anything. Negative from their point of view, that is. This is the feeling I get when I think about all of this. We were so blessed for so long, it really makes it difficult now.
Sooo, many kudos and thanks to Watchdog, for persevering, and allowing us a voice. Thanks WD and blog. on!!!!!!!!!
As I have said before, its a new day in the SBC...there is a new breed of pastor, one that has the aire of godliness, but also of arrogance, self-importance, and a love for money and desire for large houses and wealth. A pastor who desires to use the church to promote themselves and their family, a pastor who views the church as a corporation in need of a CEO and a marketing and promotions consultant to decide how to "sell" the direction of the church and how to "raise" revenues...we thought the only danger to our church in a pastoral transition was a "liberal" who would come in with a stool and an open collar shirt and tell us "Jesus is a real cool dude" and would deny biblical inerrancy...but there was another danger that we didn't foresee...a professing conservative (we think) who is abusing the congregation through his arrogance, meanness, anger, nepotims, and quest for brand building and marketing and promotions.
You see, when the church developed bylaws to create a church that was "pastor led" many years ago, it never envisioned the likes of a Mac Brunson. That is what makes it so confusing that the trustees allowed the bylaws to be changed to give Mac even MORE power and control over the church than the previous pastors. It really is mind boggling. Thy Peace's quote above from Wade Burleson's blog is a good one...we do these pastors no favors by giving them so much control in the church. It may have worked under previous pastors, but its a disaster under Team Brunson.
But here we are...and I dare say that Mac's upcoming $20 million drive this spring is going to be a referendum on his tenure. If he gets his $20 million, he will be dug in for the long term and the Team Brunson era will be launched with full nepotism and satellites all over the city and debt will be incurred. The people of FBC Jax have a chance to send a strong message to Mac and his trustees by not pledging a dime while the abuses continue and his actions the first three years go unexplained...and certainly if people believe in their hearts that Mac is bad for our church and want to see him go, then they should pledge a big fat goose egg to his "Next Generation" initiative. If he can't raise the money, he might, MIGHT just start looking for greener pastures for he and Team Brunson and the A-Group.
My guess is he will have just enough support to squeek by, and he will do some serious sheep beating and guilt tripping in the next few months, and he might just get enough to at least fund the school and replace the A/C in the RLA, and fund the satellites in the other parts of Duval County that he desires to do....or he will borrow money and keep us in the dark and will begin the projects anyways.
Rise up people of FBC Jax! Just as we couldn't foresee the likes of Mac Brunson, perhaps neither could he foresee a congregation that WOULD stand up for their church, and WOULD NOT stand for the nepotism and the anger and the animus coming forth from the pulpit. Congregations CAN stand up to these pastors...FBC Ocala did it, and we can too.
Those in leadership of FBCJ and the congregation do not have the backbone to respond the way the folks at Ocala did! The trustees and deacons are weak and limp from bowing to Brunson.
Prove me wrong church!
Those wanting to come after me for my comments about Brunson must track me through Europe, so come on. I do know the Brunsons.
Hey WD:? Did the repairs and mildew in the children's area take place, and were the local authorities notified and then inspected for approval for city code violations?
I never heard of any mildew...but I do know they have begun the repairs of the pre-school building roof. Mac wanted us to give $1 million to pay for the facility repairs, and a believe about $200,000 of that was to replace the preschool roof and repair interior water damage. I don't know how much they raised on that Sunday, but it was well short of the $1 million goal. They love to ask us to dig deep, but never keep us updated on how much was given.
Local authorities? Why would local authorities be contacted? Again, I never heard that there was mildew...but it was a concern I expressed...if we allowed water intrusion from an aging roof, then did we also have a mildew problem. I doubt it. But at any rate, I suppose its being addressed now. They also needed to replace chillers for the RLA and one other building as well...
Speaking as one who has already freed himself from FBC Jax and Mac Brunson's preaching, I can say "free, free, thank God I'm free at last."
Not easy to leave friends and the comfort of FBC Jax, but to finally be under the preaching of a loving, caring, humble servant pastor it makes all the difference.
First Jax, there are so many churches ready to minister to the hurting sheep of Jax. Stay if you want and hope for the best, but consider getting out of your comfort zone and visit another church - just give it a try. There are plenty of conservative, bible believing, bible preaching pastors in this town. You will actually begin to look forward to the sermons knowing you will hear truth, but in LOVE. Less history, more bible. More Jesus. A preacher doesn't have to be mad to preach against sin, and the Holy Spirit can convict when the preacher is loving yet truthful. You don't know what you are missing until you give it a try.
oc - there is no "children's wing".
There is a "preschool building" that needed a new roof system and it took in significant water from the trop storm that came through here over the summer. With money raised from the special offering after Mac demanded we give $1 million in two weeks else we would go into debt (one of his most "sheep fleecing", arrogant moments), they are fixing the roof and repairing the water damage. The church voted on the project last month.
I've been a member of First Baptist since 94 but before that I was a member of Trinity Baptist for 30 years so I've grown up listening to preachers yelling and putting people down, but when I came to First Baptist and listened to Dr. Lindsay and Dr. Vines preach, the first thing I learned was that a preacher didn't have to preach for an hour to get their point across and that they don't have to yell for their message to be heard. I use to go to church on Sunday morning and night and Wed. nights because of both the message and the messenger and would take notes in my Bible from both Lindsay and Vines, but now I only go on Sunday mornings and not every Sunday morning. Something is happening to this once mighty church and its people. Its like we are being reprogrammed to think and act differently from the way we were taught all these past years. I use to like Rev. Smyrls sermons when he preached here under Dr. Vines, but something happened to him when he left and came back, his messages were not the same anymore and when he preached on a Wed. night and said at the end of his sermon that a lot of us were concentrating more on him not wearing a tie instead of the sermon thats when I quit going on Wed. nights. Some of you may remember Dr. Brunson telling us when he first came here and had preached a few times that we like him now but lets see how you feel about me in a few years, that right their tells me that he has had this problem before in his other churches. Now I see why Joel Osteen has the largest church in America. If you were a hurting Christian or even a hurting non Christian, who would you want to go hear Brunson or Osteen. We get enough of being yelled at and abused in the world. Under Drs. Lindsay and Vines they always prepared us to go back out in the workplace the following week with a bounce in our step, but now it seems like all we get is a kick in the butt and a slap on the face, no wonder tithing and attendance and morale is down. Wouldn't it be great if we had a pastor like Joel Osteen who encouraged us but preached the word of God like Dr. Lindsay or Dr. Vines. This church would be filled up every Sunday with people ready to charge the gates of hell if need be instead of now leaving the church with their heads tucked between their tails.
Watchdog,
What did you think of the service this morning? WAIT.....I forgot, you've been removed. Sorry, my mistake, hehe ;)
Anon 1:02pm 01/11/09....If this mornings sermon was anything like the one I watched on TV 12 this morning then ANYONE WHO WAS NOT THERE DIDN'T MISS ANYTHING!!!!...Anything Mac says rings HOLLOW.
watchdog, where the people who received those "no trespassing" papers from the church ever allowed to see their daughter in the childrens musical? It would be a shame if not.
Is FBCJ unable to afford property insurance in order to repair the building if/when tropical storms blow through? Maybe a fund-raiser to cover the cost of the deductible, instead of millions?
Just asking--interested in church administration matters.
Also, maybe try some "passive compliments" for the senior pastor, in addition to the "passive criticisms" posted here. You know, shape the man by complimenting him if he even half-way gets something right until he finally gets the whole thing right (I think my wife does this to me . . .)?
THIS "SO-CALLED BLOG" IS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING AND A TRAVESTY TO THE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH OF JACKSONVILLE. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE TO ATTACK A CHURCH AND MAC BRUNSON?
THE ONLY CONCLUSION IS THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES THAT THE CHURCH,PEOPLE,MINISTERS OF FIRST BAPTIST ARE MORE INTERESTED IN MONEY AND PERSONAL GAIN, IS QUITE OBVIOUSLY NOT SAVED. WHILE THOSE THAT KNOW I'M SURE ARE PRAYING FOR YOU TO HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THEY HAVE.MAY THE LORD OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH.
Anon 10:21. Thanks but no thanks. You do know that the church is all born again blood washed individuals don't you? The true church. Just because we may not agree with someone does not make us unsaved. I was saved for many years before I heard of Mac Brunson. Since you do not know us, and you are not God you are not qualified to judge anyones salvation. Have a nice day.
Dear Sir,
I was raised in FBC and baptised by Homer Lindsay, Sr. If Homer Sr. knew what was going on in his church, he would be spinning in his grave.
When I came back to Jacksonville, I was amazed and very disappointed in the changes to our church. My biggest complaint is that the service is now a "show". TV cameras, orchestra, etc... I was dismayed that the service has been "dumbed down". I sorely missed the hymnbooks and instead, had to follow the words on a giant screen. I sang in the choir for over ten years. In fact, this is where I learned to sight read music, a skill that I can no longer use when I worship God at FBC. Dr. Brunson's sermons seem to be merely a chance for him to show off his fancy education. I hardly care about extensive history lessons and the etymology of Greek words. By the time he gets back on topic, I have forgotten what he was talking about.
However, I cannot speak to the abuses outlined by your blog. I have no knowledge of them.
I certainly feel that you have a right to blog what you wish. A fair and open FBC would/should not fear the truth. I doubt that Homer Sr. OR Jr. would be disturbed by it.
My MAIN REASON for commenting is your tone.
I acknowledge that you act in good faith. However, you are extremely sarcastic and sarcasm does not serve ANYONE well. Children do not understand it and adults resent it.
I respectfully ask that you take the high road here. Yes, I would similarly be outraged by the action of the church to block you from attending YOUR church and threatening to have you removed from the church.
If what you say is TRUE, then you do not NEED to be sarcastic. State the facts as honestly and unbiased as you can and I think you will be better served.
Since I have close family that still attends FBC, I reluctantly will sign as anonymous.
Yours in Christ... anon
Sorry you didn't appreciate WD's tone in the past article...yes, sarcastic. WD doesn't write in that manner mostly, but there's a purpose in it. Mac himself uses an angry, sarcastic, condescending tone often with his audience - the likes of which we've never seen at FBC Jax. And the tone expresses the disdain felt by many over the topic of promotions and nepotism at the church under Team Brunson. This blog has called for Mac to take the "high road" as you have called it - asking him to be open and transparent about the land gift, asking him to apologize for spreading a lie about Sheri Klouda...but no high road. Just more anger.
And to 10:21 - THANKS FOR YOUR ASSESSMENT OF MY SPIRITUAL CONDITION. I HOPE YOU'RE NOT A MAC BRUNSON SUPPORTER. WHAT YOU JUST SAID IS VERY CULTIC. IF SOMEONE SAYS ANYTHING ABOUT THE LEADERSHIP, THEN THAT IS PROOF POSITIVE THEY ARE A LOST SINNER HEADED TO HELL - THAT IS THE STUFF CULTS ARE MADE OF MY FRIEND.
Why do certain anons continue to assume the watchdog has been accused by the church. There has been no proof of any kind that the watchdog is the person served the trespass warnings. Seems ironic to me that so many pro-Brunson supporters demand "proof" of any thing said about the pastor, yet they don't require ANY proof that the WD is the man accused by the discipline committee. Gullible, weak minded sheep indeed.
Anon.1:0l AM: I also am a Lindsay SR.&JR. "alma mater". And certainly have the same complaints regarding the current pulpit. I will say these complaints are presented truthfully here, from my prospective. In Dr. Brunsons education, he was not taught,or at least failed to learn the GIFT of humility, and kindness, which I suppose cannot be adopted. One must honestly possess them. However, I will respectfully defend Watchdog here. If WD is "sarcastic" consider that we each react differently to disappointment. Frustration with the church one loves over a long period of time will alter ones attitude and responses. WD, is sarcastic because he is upset and frustrated at the abuses he has listed here. Many of us have "limited patience" in these matters. As you well know what we had in the Lindsay era is so far from what we endure now, that to expect a gentle tolerance is almost impossible. If sarcasam is the only "outlet" one has for this frustration then it is understandable to adopt it. Of course, we having known both Sr. & JR. also know they would handle this current problem in short order. This would not stand in their church, nor would it stand in their pulpit. The honor and integrity of these men are nowhere to be found today. At least not in FBCJ. As has been mentioned before some of these gentlemen served under both Lindsays and many under Lindsay Jr., and in my opinion have "soldout" their own integrity to follow and compromise with the current "office holder."
I, as they say, "know where you are coming from". Only those who have had the best understand how it is missing now. And the void is painful to see. Thus WD, is certainly an outlet for the frustrations and a help to many who are living through it. And for that he has my thanks. Bless you, and keep looking up.
Milieu Control (Lifton 101)
"Most simply stated, “Milieu Control” is the control of an environment by controlling the information and activities within the environment. Pertaining to manipulative and closed groups, this involves control of communication and generation of acceptable information to be disseminated among the membership. Ultimately, the group seeks to control the thought environment of individual members, and it is this internal milieu control that produces the isolation from society at large. The cognitive dissonance produced by the incongruent messages received from the outside creates the natural desire to withdraw or filter information that does not coincide with information within the group. It’s too draining and stressful to constantly try to reckon conflicting worldviews, so isolationism seen in closed systems of thought is often a necessary adaptation. Healthy people do filter information, but in closed systems, the group dictates what sources of information are restricted in an effort to maintain compliance and limit dissent.
“Love bombing” is a most effective means of recruiting new membership and falls under the category of milieu control. Groups thrive and grow, primarily by their ability to create an ideal environment that members tend to associate with pleasant, safe and nurturing feelings. A utopia can be defined as an ideally perfect place, generally in a social and moral sense. The creation of the idealistic world of rest and special bliss without the cumbersome burdens of life is very seductive. Most people who have participated in such a group and left, despite the heartaches of their experiences, long for a return to the “feeling” that the manipulative group appeared to create for them.
Often, leadership will tell members that their group is the only place where one can find this type of comfort which makes those who enjoy the environment less likely to leave the group.
Free exchange of information is tightly controlled by threats of accusation of gossip or "touching not the anointed" leadership in manipulative groups. Another popular phrase that is often used to discourage critical evaluation of legitimate information within Christian churches is the admonishment to refrain from “sewing discord among the brethren.” This is not a blanket command however and would be an inappropriate response to false teaching and error. Perhaps the most dangerous harm to the milieu of a group occurs as a result of drawing leadership into question. This is a taboo in spiritually abusive groups in particular.
Stories concocted for the purpose of "damage control" (to prevent membership from thinking critically about events or arguments that might draw the ideology or leadership into question) also fall under this category so that members are fearful or reluctant to fairly consider information produced by dissidents. Information from outside sources is often criticized and discounted to discourage acceptance by group members. Connotation is a powerful tool in the maintenance of milieu control, often aimed at creating the perception that certain types of information are tainted or dangerous. (See “Biblical Modifiers.”) Maintenance of group milieu within a closed system, religious or otherwise, is perhaps the most demanding aspects of thought reform and manipulative systems, but it is a profoundly effective one."
WOW!!!How sad. Has Dr. Brunson really fallen that far? I was discipled under him. I knew Trey when he was a smart mouthed teenager. Dr. Mac used to step on my toes all the time, which for me was a good thing because I had a lot of junk which needed to be confronted. I was a new Christian and didn't know the Bible so I couldn't find the passages which dealt so directly and confrontationally with my sins. SOmetimes he made me mad and sometimes he hurt my feelings. But please here this...I became a stronger christian because he called sin sin! An old woman in our church sold her life long violin to pledge to the church. No many people knew that it was Dr. Brunson who bought it back had the church give it back to her. He made arrangements for several of us to get jobs and help as seminary when we went. He and Debbie counseled me when I learned that God wanted me to be a Pastor's wife. His teaching was always Biblical and I loved learning the original Greek words which English can often so poorly translate. ALl this to say that I have always remembered him fondly and with prayer. Has he really changed that much? Has he really fallen so far? Than I must pray all the more fervantly because the "man of God" whom I knew has fallen. Yet I am concerned to follow the counsel of one who will not identify himself. I have never found this to be reputable practice. In fact...the Word of God says that accusation should never be brought against an elder except with two or more witnessess. By default a true witness is willing to bear his or her name by their report. I am not trying to trick you into identifying yourself. My courtroom is Heaven. Yet I warn you that your attacks will eventually fall on deaf ears. People will grow weary of the growls and barks of the masked watchdog. Brother or Sister...if Mac is really fallen so far than you should use all this time and energy getting on your knees. Your attack will then be directed toward the true enemy...Satan...and perhaps the man of God will be restored. You are inwebbed by anger and bitterness and perhaps (from the world's standards) rightly so...but it will not far you well in the only true courtroom. I am not a Brunsonian....but I know he was called by God to preach the Word and that being so...Colossians bids us pray for him...Philippians bids us pray for him...Hebrews bids us pray for him. If he has fallen to conceit and greed and perhaps anger (although he has always preached strong) then it is your calling to pray his release from those entanglements of sin and to ready to praise God when Christ completes what good he once bagan.
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