Just as the Watchdog announces he is ready to wind down the blog, in a strategic move that only Barney Fife could appreciate, the FBC Jax leadership takes another move to keep the blog going.The man and wife accused of owning this blog and issued trespass warnings last November the day before Thanksgiving by Reverend King and Reverend Blount, after two months were again contacted by the Rev. Blount this week via phone and email.
The accused has forwarded the following emails exchanged:
To the accused, Blount writes:
xxxxxx,
Please call me to discuss meeting with the committee. (356-6077)
Thank You!
John Blount
To which the accused responded with the following email:
Reverend John Blount: Received your two voicemails and email yesterday.
I made it quite clear immediately after I was served the tresspass papers by you and Rev King I would meet with the committee immediately after three reasonable requests were met: that I be provided a copy of the bylaws, I am told the basis of the allegations made against me and my wife, and I am allowed to bring someone with me to the meeting. I have interpreted your silence for about 2 months since the committee declined these requests, to mean the committee was not interested in meeting me under those conditions. So be it. My wife and I have complied in full with the trespass warnings and have not returned to the church property.
Please, Rev Blount: we respectfully request that you and staff and refrain from calling us, emailing us, or leaving voicemails for us. Please inform your staff members also, to stop calling or texting or emailing me, my wife, and my children. I am hereby informing you that any attempts to visit me at my home by you, Rev King, or any other staff members or committee members will be unwelcome, and considered trespasses.
Thank you.
To which Rev. Blount responded with:
xxxxx,
We respect your wishes that the church not contact you any further. However, we are compelled by the Bylaws to communicate to you the church's actions with regard to discipline.
On December 3, 2008 I e-mailed you the Discipline Committee's response to your demand for terms and conditions regarding their requested meeting with you. Their position has not changed. I indicated this in my follow-up e-mail to you dated December 15. Therefore, there has been no further need to communicate with you since then.
The Committee has completed its investigation of the "watchdog" site and its content. Per the Church Bylaws, the committee will present their findings to the Deacon body as a whole. That will take place on February 23. Your refusal to meet with the Discipline Committee and the sentiments expressed in your e-mail below substantiate your disinterest in any reconciliatory process. Therefore, the meeting will take place without your participation.
Any action recommended by the Deacons must subsequently be presented to the Church body for ratification. Should that occur, we will communicate to you in writing the action the church has taken.
Thank You!
John Blount
Amazing. The accused tells me he has not step foot on the property since the trespass warnings were issued. He says his wife in December out of disgust asked the church to remove her from the church rolls as a member. The family has even joined another church. But Mac and his minions still need to proceed with their church discipline. Reminds me of two of Mac's great quotes from 2008: Mac said, he is to deal harshly with sinners "...to put the fear of God in YOU [the congregation]" - which is a quote of his the very night the accused were denied the request to attend church to hear their child sing. And as Mac said last August: "Because God has not judged you in the past does not mean the judgment of God won't fall tomorrow morning. 'The mills of the 'god's' grind slow, but they grind exceedingly fine'...in other words God may not have judged you yet, but when it catches up to you, only God can help you then." Amen, Mac.
So mark it on your calendars, good deacons of FBC Jax. You will hear the evidence against the accused on February 23rd so that you can consider what discipline, or maybe even legal action, can be taken against the man and his family. And good people of FBC Jax, we will likely hear the deacon's recommendation on Wed. February 25th. What exciting days these are at FBC Jax, as we get to see the Lord at work through our discipline committee and deacons! How wonderful! Dr. Lindsay would be so proud! We can only hope the weekly video "FBC Jax in 80 Seconds" will highlight the excellent work of John Blount and the Discipline Committee! Maybe they could re-enact the delivery of the trespass warnings for full cinematic effect! And to think that we, the congregation, get to participate in the process, and "ratify" what the deacons present to us! Praise the Lord!
Seriously, let's hope that the Trustees provide just a little bit more information to us on Wed. February 25th before they ask us to vote and "ratify" their actions against the accused. Don't be fooled again church. You've been fooled by these men into approving bylaws that granted more power to the preacher, which took away your right to even call a business meeting, and you forfeited yours and all future church members' rights to ever bring any legal action against the church.
By the way, the accused say they have moved on and have joined another church full of sincere, loving people, and a preacher who preaches through the Bible verse by verse and does it with power and conviction, yet with love and humility. He wrote: "...it wasn't until we were forced to leave and got under the preaching of a humble servant of God preaching truth in love that we realized just how abusive Mac Brunson's preaching really is. Our hearts ache for the people of FBC Jax."
And the Watchdog says to John Blount and the Discipline Committee: Go get 'em Barney! Just don't shot yerself in the foot!
What arrogant un Christ like jerks!
ReplyDeleteMac and his boys are still trying to intimidate...threaten....keep the world from hearing about the corruption at FBC .
How can you bring a NON MEMBER before the church???? Makes NO SENSE..except to bully and silence others.
Gosh....even the great and powerful BBC boys didn't do what Mac is doing!
They had a little more confidence in their take over.
Sad day.
ReplyDeleteReflects the times we live in.
Compare this with the action against Grace Community Church here and here.
At Grace, they explain the Church Bylaws to you with care and love, before you join the church and they also explain the Church Discipline Process before you join the church.
At Fbcjax, you are to fend for yourself. First you have to discover for yourself what the "current" Church Bylaws are, even the ones you voted on in 2007. No explanation. Then about Church Discipline, all we are shown is the TDM articles and seepage of its source in sermons as in ... Brother Drummer, are you worried about Church Discipline? Watch who it unnerves. Watch who it unverves.
That is it.
Then of course, to put the fear of God in memebers, against speaking or questioning of the Church Leadership, as in here and here.
It is ok. The old days are over. When members blindly follow Church Leaders without asking any questions are truly over.
This should be a nice welcome to a lost visitor on Wed night.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible predicts over and over that wolves like Brunson would arise and prey on the sheep....Why is it so difficult for the koolaid drinking defenders and apologists to understand Biblical warnings about false shepherds like Mac..Pope Mac has prove beyond a shadow of doubt that he is a greedy,abusive,arrogant fraud..This imposter wouldn't know what and how a true Pastor should behave himself even if Jesus came down in all His Glory and personally tried to show him!!.I pray that the unsaved would go to a Church where the true man called of God preaches..Then they would see the true love of Christ evident by his preaching and his actions.. Dr.Dog talked to a 30yr + FBC Jax member who has basically stop attending Church do mainly to Mac the Mess abuses..This person stated that this was the first time in over 30 years as a member of FBC Jax that they are actively seeking another Church..ICHABOD,ICHABOD the Glory of the Lord has departed FBC JAX!!!
ReplyDeleteAbsolute power corrupts, absolutely!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis type of so called Christian kindness brings no one back to the fold...it does the exact opposite...it drives them away along with their children and their relatives and friends. I recall a man throwing rocks and yelling at King David. What did David do? He said to leave the man alone. And David was the King not some little baptist preacher who thought he was a king!! When these men some old and others getting old get in their 80's they will still have these scars and shame haunt them to the grave knowing full well they followed a man and not the Lord. Shameful and disgraceful...egos gone wild!!
ReplyDeleteGreat! Another Wednesday night hatchet job, from Mac and the boys. My advice to anyone thinking about joining this organization masquerading as a church is RUN DON'T WALK AWAY!
ReplyDeleteUnbelieveable!!! How arrogant and MEAN!!! Do these people feel their power is so threatened that they must destroy others. The "trespass VICTIMS" are NO LONGER ATTENDING FBCJ!!!! They have asked to be removed from the church roll!!!! DUH! So what else does Mac want...BLOOD? First it was don't come on church property...now it's make a public example so others will be too terrified to raise any sort of objection to anything. Reminds me of communist Russia. It's like "come watch me make these people suffer". "I will show you not to mess with Mac". An invented scenario, but how far wrong? A preacher that just wants to hurt someone is not a called preacher in my book (the bible).
ReplyDeleteAnd these men carrying out this inquisition, don't they have any conscience... have they prayed about their part in this. Or are they just following a man? These victims are GONE!!!!! Mac and co., claimed that is what they wanted. That's what they got. Anything else shows them (Mac an co.) to be mean spirited. And I notice it is to be done on another Wednesday night when few are at church, so it will be easy to ram-rod through. Most of the Wed., night crowd is asleep anyway. Anything Mac wants to push through happpens on Wed., night. That's usually the plan. Fewer in attendance who would "dare" voice opposition. Deacons if you allow this to happen then I hope you're next. Don't think it stops here!!! It's TOTAL CONTROL for Mac, and that includes you deacons!!! Check your brains, your individuality, your conscience, and your spiritual discernment at the door, it's the only way to serve Mac!!! God help this church!!!!
What proof do they have against this family? If he is not the Watchdog, shouldn't the committee be ashamed for accusing the wrong people; or are they so arrogant to think you can silence everyone who disapproves or disagrees with the shenanigans at FBCJ. If they think in those terms, many of the pew sitters, deacons/trustees/judges/committee members and others are all guilty. Will they be served.
ReplyDeleteThese actions are deliberately a part of furthering Mac's kingdom. They are not biblical, spiritual nor loving or kind. What idiot would be brought back to the fold after going through this type process. Public humiliation is not a process Jesus would approve.
As someone else mentioned, deacons, trustees, etc. you just might be next. Is that why you keep your mouths shut and follow lie sheep to the slaughter and the Shepard is Brunson? My, my, how weak you truly are.
If FBCJ continues on this path, seems like legal action could result. Yes, I know all the judges, lawyers and others at FBCJ have cleared the path, but they have never been legally challenged.
I don't think Mac wants "blood" but he does want to show any remaining members what will happen to you if you dare to ask questions. If you come personally, you will be identified and black listed from leadership. If you send an anonymous email, you will be attacked from the pulpit and your email tossed out, and if you blog, you and your wife will be banned from the chuch and once you leave and join another church, they will continue to hunt you down. This should serve as a clear reminder, not to the Watchdog, but to the remaining gullible sheep, that you better keep giving (a million dollars in two weeks) and keep your mouth shut or look what we can and will do to you and your family.
ReplyDeleteAttack leadership all you want for discipline to be brought against the Watchdog according to the bylaws.
ReplyDeleteLeadership has rock solid proof they have fingered the guy who is trying to destroy our pastor and our church. They have the proof, and it will be shared with the deacons so they will know this guy is a fraud, a slanderer, a liar. All of the things the Watchdog followers accuse our pastor of, is what the Watchdog is.
I only hope the evidence is explained to the church so his friends will know too. The accused man is no victim, he is the perpetrator.
I think this is a terrible mark AGAINST FBCJ. It sets a precedent that will haunt this church for a long time. This church could not be any further from the Christ honoring, spiritual and loving church that it was. Dr. Lindsay would be appalled. We never had any of this stuff happen in 60+ years. The difference is the PREACHER. What a shame has been brought on this church. It makes one so very sad. No wonder people are leaving. Soon there will only be people like Brunson and followers left to chew on each other, while they drink kool-aid. Notice this action was not taken until AFTER the pastors conference. Might not look good to those "paying" to be at the Great FBCJ pastors conference.
ReplyDeleteAs to whether or not the "trespass people" are Watchdog and wife....Who cares. If "stuff" is happening, then it needs to be exposed. People put their money in this church! Watchdog did not CREATE the problems, he just reported them. Thank you Watchdog for "hanging in there". I told you it was too early to leave. You may never get to retire this blog., as the hits just keep on coming.
As to not being able to sue the church, one does not give up their constitutional rights to belong to a church. Plus these people left, they are no longer members, and the church is still harassing them and coming after them for public flogging. Nothing will be accomplished but to embarass them. But news flash... it may backfire and make this preacher and followers look like the "bad guys". At least I hope so. Who would ever want to be part of this church? Plus there is still "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" in America, at least today. These pastors in these churches say and do what they want from behind a pulpit, and they call it preaching. Why should others have no voice? DEACONS YOU BETTER WAKE UP. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE PART OF THIS. DO ANY OF YOU HAVE A BACKBONE. Guess we will see. I so pray for this church to reclaim what it has lost, it's good name, it's integrity, and above all it's mission to save the lost, and to preach JESUS.
So let me get this straight. This man is accused of blogging. Period. Correct? Sure, the church disagrees with the content of the blog, but basically, they are banning him and his wife because he is blogging about what he sees at his church. And what he sees at his church is abuse and greed and the A-group.
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something? The pastor accepts a $307K land gift three weeks after arriving, puts his wife and son on staff, promotes his Holy Land trips, plays a commercial during a Sunday morning sermon for the family that gave him the land gift and the WD simply wrote about these things.
They call that divisive. Is it divisive to accept the land gift, or is it just divisive to blog about the pastor accepting the land gift. Or put another way, is it harmful to Trinity Baptist church that founder Bob Gray molested boys and girls, or is harmful that the press wrote about the story?
Blogging is free speech., It is someone's opinion. If you want to enrich yourself, and take money from donors, then be extra careful how you go about it.
Disciplining a member for blogging is almost funny if it were not so sad. Hey First Baptist, good luck with that. Why not open a satellite in China. I am sure they will shut down blogs for you.
Even if you do expose Watchdog, so what. He is a reporter of goings on in the church no more no less.
ReplyDeleteI hope the deacons get a chance to say something, or will it all be done by the "yes men", as usual?
FBCJ is almost not worth "fooling" with now. It's not the same church. It's gone the "way of Cain".
Anon February 14, 2009 10:15 AM - you say the church has "rock solid proof." Do you know what the "proof" is are you once again just trusting what someone else says. You do know "hearsay" is not reliable evidence don't you? Are you commenting based on "hearsay" sir?
ReplyDeleteAnd how will the proof show the WD to be a fraud, liar and slanderer. Will there be proof that the pastor did not accept a gift from J.D. Collins only three weeks after he arrived? (Perhaps the deed was fraudulent and the tax appraiser posted a false deed?) And did that commercial for Collins Builders, played right in the middle of a Sunday morning sermon, not actually get played? (Is that a lie of the Watchdog, too?) And what about the pastor promoting his Holy Land trips? Were those promotions never placed in the bulletin or on the church web site? And what about his adding his wife and son to the payroll? Is the WD lying about that? And what about million dollar home built at below market value by Howard White, and the free million dollar condo on Amelia Island for the first year? Are those "facts" actually lies.? And what about banning a man's wife from seeing her daughter sing for the sin of "associating" with her husband?
Is this the evidence the deacons will hear that will show the WD to be a fraud?
And if the evidence is so iron clad, why is the accused not allowed to be present to hear the evidence against him, confront that evidence and give a defense? Oh, because the discipline committee demanded he appear before them with no witnesses, no by-laws and no basis for any of their accusations.
Now, you tell me you are excited about this process by your big bad church against this blogger?
Thank God that courts and judges will enforce the laws and rules of this State if this blogger is lied about and slandered in this closed meeting and if any action is taken against him. Dr. Brunson has to respond to a subpoena just like the rest of us. This could get really, really interesting.
I guess the blog was not bringing enough negative attention and scrutiny to Team Brunson and FBC Jax, so now the staff and its committee decides to ratchet it up to the next level. Instead of one disgruntled blogger out there, this matter will now be one of civil litigation and daily coverage in the newspapers. And those depositions and interrogatories, once filed with the court will be public record.
ReplyDeleteBut Mac chose this all along. He first chose to ignore an anonymous email, forcing the sender to start blogging. Now, he is forcing the accused blogger to take civil action.
I wonder if there are any trial lawyers in this town who are chomping at the bit to take on FBC Jax and are licking their chops to take the depos of Big Mac and the trustees to get some answers under oath? And the penalties for perjury are still harsh, are they not.
As a reader of the WD, I can't wait to hear what action the church will take against this accused blogger.
Readers: the charges against the accused are not that he is blogging, but that he has created divisiveness, has been derogatory, destructive, and demeaning. Other words used: definance, accused, dishonesty, ignorance, manipulation, disregard, defy, held in contempt, without restraint, questioned without factual basis, discouraged, cast doubt, belittled, tool of retributin, jeopardize the security, ridiculed falsely, strongly urged, disseminate the contents of your blog, blogged anonymously, refused requests to meet, threaten unity and harmony, subversive.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to read the charges in the November letter here.
Also, my analysis of the charges back in January:
Charges Against Watchdog - Part 1
Charges Against Watchdog - Part 2
Charges Against Watchdog - Part 3
Charges Against Watchdog - Part 4
So read the charges, and read the Watchdog's analysis of the charges.
Yeah but if you are still blogging and these people they accuse of being the Watchdog aren't, yet info about the place is still getting blogged about..it would stand to reason they don't have the right mutt. Unless all of this is an undercover sham, the letters are a setup, the ones claiming to have been accused are in on it, and they DO know who the real dog is and are going to out him publicly and embarrasing fashion in that Wed. Night.
ReplyDeletegestapo:
ReplyDeletea secret police organization employing underhanded and terrorist methods against persons SUSPECTED of DISLOYALTY
Has it all come down to this? What good, in the world, could come from this? The list of accusation against Watchdog [the accused] is only exceeded by the growing list of abuses of Mac Brunson. Well Mac, say what you will, but it all smacks of FEAR TACTICS to me. Why bring this dead issue up again if the DOG [accused] is gone to another church? In your wildest dreams do you think that this ploy will prevent men of God from talking about a "falling away" preacher and his church. Are you so blind that you can not see that others can see through this tactic?
There have been many pastors who have posted here delineating the problems with Mac Brunson. Wait till the word gets out of this latest abuse. Wait till they here that Mac is now going after a FORMER CHURCH MEMBER.
Will someone please tell Mac that he is wrong.
This just keeps getting more surreal. Why on earth would FBCJax continue going after their "supposed watchdog" person if he and his family have already left the church and asked to be left alone? Unless, as mentioned earlier, it's to 'put the fear of God' into anyone else thinking of complaining. This is preposterous. Almost makes me want to attend a service just to stand up and start asking questions in the middle of a sermon. I do, however, keep thinking one thing as I read this blog: why are any of you still active members? Why don't you all cancel your active memberships but keep attending if you wish? Frankly, I wouldn't officially join any church. One can be a regular attender without actually joining. And after your bylaw changes, what's the benefit of membership anyway, if you can only rubber-stamp whatever is brought to you for a 'vote'. Plus, consider this scenario: what if the church goes into debt for one of Mac's schemes (due to giving being down). Now say you're a member and decide you've had it with things there and you leave to join another church. Left the problems behind you, you think. Well, what's to stop some deacon/trustee person from sending you a letter demanding contributions for this debt repayment because at the time the debt was taken out YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE CONGREGATION and as such a member of the group given the loan. You may think "they can't do that" but look what's going on right now at your church; many would have said none of this could happen, either. From posts here, I gather there are many lawyers and judges in your membership, so they could be used in just such a demand. Think about it people. Consider whether your current membership in this church might be used against you in a financial matter. Just one more way for Mac to get what he wants out of you whether you like it or not. This church sounds like a very scary place to me. God help those of you there who still have discernment, like Watchdog; you're in a very sad place.
ReplyDeleteD
If we didn't already think so, this church discipline garbage makes it apparent that John Blount wouldn't know correct procedure of law if it bit him in the butt! He's made himself a buffoon! But hey, everyone needs a little amusement in these tough economic times and apparently Blount is happy to provide it!
ReplyDeleteWe know where you live??? We have positively identified you??? You are accused of what, statement of facts as you know them???
I can't help but see a real similar situation in the White House these days. Barack Obama has decided to just stare down the people who ask quesitons he doesn't like. But guess what? It's going to come back to royally bite his backside!
That's what's going to happen @FBC if this nonsense isn't stopped right now! The "accused" are not even members @FBC anymore. If Doc wants to see people leave b/c he doesn't want anyone to disagree out loud -- he will see it and in many more numbers than he thinks! If he continues with this plan I and many many others will get up and walk out when they have the meeting to accomplish, what? Excommunication of the non-compliant members who likely are not even the people they have "identified" as the perpetrators?
I don't think he knows how very many people are @FBC only because we haven't actively sought out a new church to attend. There will be a mass exodus if Doc Brunson allows this charade to continue, pretending to be conducting Biblical church discipline.
The really sad part is that this will hit the newspapers and it will hurt the cause of Jesus Christ. And all because Mac Brunson has too much pride to have just let this go. Trust me, the news media is going to love this.
Anon Feb. 14th 10:15am,
ReplyDeleteYou are exactly right sir. The accused man and his wife are NOT the victims here. They are the perpetrators.
Do you really think the church, including a JUDGE, experienced business men and highly regarded laymen would accuse the wrong people? NO, absolutely not! Ask yourselves this: Why would they take something so serious, so serious that it will mark their reputations, and foul it up?"
They won't.
And those of you who think the church has accussed the wrong people because the Watchdog blog is still up and running have made a mistake in your logic and reasoning of this whole discipline matter. The sermons can still be viewed online through the church's website; Not only that but the Watchdog can still correspond with people in the church and find out what is going on. Thus, allowing the Watchdog, the accused, to continue in the sinful lifestyle he has chosen to live as outlined in the indictment letters.
Watchdog supporters, I warn you. Do not be fooled by the Dog. Do not let him take advantage of your weak spirituality. He is the perpetrator as the Anon said and he is trying to do everything in his power to maintain his innocence and keep his integrity, if there was any to start with.
Mark my words, the Watchdog is the accused. And he is getting what he deserves.
Baptist Bandit:
ReplyDeleteThank you for showing how there are some at the FBC Jacksonville who have learned well from Mac Brunson. Mac is an angry, vindictive person, and he seeks revenge on those who he believes are guilty of pointing out his abuses. And so you have learned under his preaching these three years. Good for you.
Problem is, Bandit, you, like the leadership of the church, keep shooting yourself in the foot. Barney Fife would be so proud.
You accuse those who might read this blog and agree that there have been abuses as being "spiritually weak". You take delight in revenge. You believe the Watchdog is the accused. Good for you. Does that make you feel good? Will you take joy in seeing your pastor and "....JUDGE, experienced business men and highly regarded laymen" exact discipline on people? What is the goal? Is the goal to shut the blog down? Do you think this will shut the blog down, even if the accused is the Watchdog? Or is it about revenge, and making people you disagree with suffer and be humiliated to intimidate others? You obviously believe as Mac does - that church discipline is to put the fear of God in the congregation. The discipline process will be a wonderful signal to the people of FBC Jax, and future members at the downtown campus and South campus - get on board with the plans of Mac, or you will be told to shut up and leave.
Your writing here and elsewhere on the Internet, Bandit, shows our church has become what people wrongly thought we were for decades. Your own words, bandit, help to show people in Jax that the leadership and some members of the church believe their role is to stop people from "living a sinful lifestyle.". Are you listening to yourself? Your job is to judge the blogging of someone, and to declare them to be living a sinful lifestyle and your pastor, and JUDGE, and experienced businessmen are supposed to stop them?
Will they be stopping the sinful lifestyles of other members also? Or only those who disagree or are an embarrassment to the pastor?
As you have written elsewhere, Bandit, a person did send an email out to those who attended Next Generation meeting expressing sincere concern for the church. I have been forwarded the email responses this person received from people like you...members, leaders of the church, DEACONS, long-time members, and their words and tone in their responses are embarrassing. The church has now fallen to the point where the objective is about defending Mac Brunson, and being vindictive and ugly to those who express sincere concern over what is happening to our church.
The Watchdog has those emails, and Bandit rest assured I'll share those with the readers, so they can see you aren't the only vindictive one.
Blessings to you "Bandit" for helping us see into the heart of the blind supporters of Mac Brunson.
Baptist Bandit:
ReplyDeleteMy, how fitting. Sounds like you are head of the posse wanting a body, dead or alive,guilty or not guilty; all to assuage the feelings of a few misguided leaders and a bully sheriff (Brunson).
If you are so sure you have the right man (Watchdog), how many laws have been broken and civil rights abused to come to this conclusion. How much time and money has been spent trying to identify this blogger, church work and Jesus have been forgotten in the process.
Such a sweet, sweet spirit you have. Makes us all want to be a part of it.
So what if the Dog is identified, does that make Mac's abuses and lies and actions justified?
ReplyDeleteTo the "Baptist Bandit" (Just for the record: Do you know what the meaning of the word bandit is? It's an outlaw, a thief!)
ReplyDeleteDo you even know what an "indictment" is? It's a legal term. And if there's been any legal advice given to Blount, it's been poorly given. An indictment is a legal term when charges are brought against someone. There's no room in this situation for legal procedures because there has been no slander or defamation. Those terms are reserved for untrue statements that have been said against someone.
You know, it's really very funny Baptist Bandit, because you think since there's judge and/or lawyer on the "discipline committee" that they have personally investigated the "crime" and have come to the conclusion that someone has broken the law. They haven't personally investigated anything. They have taken the word of someone else -- that's called hearsay.
It's people like you who THINK they know the score. You think because someone is a deacon @FBC that it makes them holy? I'm not suggesting that they're bad people but they are sinners just like the rest of us. And some of them are probably good ol' boys who are smokers & drinkers 'cause there's nothin' wrong with that, especially when you compare it to people who are bloggers!
I'm sure there are some cases where the "discipline committee" needs to be involved and it would be good to keep balance and remind ourselves of the "lifestyle" of an FBC deacon a few years back. Now there was a case of where someone needed to be brought before a discipline committee. That hit the newspaper with such a loud thud that it was heard all over the country-- but that was quickly quieted down because it was of a sexual nature and was a really big embarrassment to everyone.
This blogger case won't be so quick to go away because most people do some blogging these days. And it will hurt the cause of Christ. If Doc Brunson was interested in promoting the cause of Christ over his pride and temper tantrums he could have done that a long time ago. But now he's madder than a hog kicked out of his sty and he plans to make someone pay for daring to talk back.
To continue in the same humorous vein as you have used in your posting, Baptist Bandit, John Blount needs to be brought before the discipline committee for sending out letters without having a professional edit them first. A 10th grader could do a better job.
Baptist Bandit-
ReplyDeleteYou said "Mark my words, the Watchdog is the accused. And he is getting what he deserves". What does that mean? The supposed point of the whole 'church discipline' issue is to 'restore such an one in the spirit of meekness' (Gal. 6:1). Where is your spirit of meekness in your comments? And secondly, once someone has chosen to leave your church, that is the end of the matter, so what is it this person is supposedly getting that he deserves? Where in the Bible does it state you're to give someone what they deserve when they have left your group? Your comments say to me, a far away outsider, that this is NOT about disciplining a backslidden brother in Christ, but simple revenge. And I'm sure you know what the Bible says about that: "vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19) So how can you say that this person is getting what he deserves? Did God tell you to go after him, even though he and his family are no longer a part of your church? Will you go after all former FBCJax members who are elsewhere? Where does this end? Once you take your eyes off God and turn them to man and his perceived faults, you have lost your focus and are in danger of losing your testimony for Christ. I assume you do care about your testimony for Christ, don't you? Then why this attitude about someone who has left your church? Left your church - gone - no longer a member - out of your hair, etc. If the person who was driven away from your 'loving, Christ-honoring' church has done wrong, then it's no longer your problem; let God deal with him, and get back to studying your Bible and working on your Christian walk. Others are watching/reading your witness, both here and in your daily life. Just my take on it.
D
Wonder what Baptist Bandit (what a silly name, but evidently appropriate) would do with Christa Brown if she were a FBCJ member. She could take him in round 1 with one hand tied behind her back.
ReplyDeleteBandit is a spineless individual who only wishes a pat on the head from Pope Mac.
If Mac Brunson was an honorable man, he could have helped stopped the abuses of Darryl Gilyard; he surely knew the evidence from years past. Like so many others, he would not step forward, thus other victims suffered. That is the kind of Pope he is. Just push pastoral abuses under the rug and hid behind by-laws and church autonomy. Shouldn't those actions call for discipline?
ReplyDeleteBut yet he is possessed with stopping a blogger. Really insecure.
I have passed this post on to several other church bloggers who are aware of the current FBCJ events.
ReplyDeleteShould prove interesting.
If FBCJ really wants to publicly embarrass members for past transgressions, I know of plenty that would not want their "secrets" made public knowledge (especially leadership). Perhaps now just might be the time to "let some slip." Of course, from my own blog site.
ReplyDeleteMy take on the current turn of events by the discipline committee is a direct result of the poor showing at the Pastor's Conference last week. Mac, Trey, staff, Amaron/Marketing, trustees, etc. want a scapegoat for the dismal results. The Watchdog is the ultimate sacrifice, as they have no one else to place the blame upon. They surely will not recognize their own shortcomings for the disappointing results. WOW, bless Watchdog for being the lamb on the alter. Shed his blood and everything is justified and all is good in the kingdom.
ReplyDeleteThe more I think about this the angrier I get! And I believe it to be righteous anger!
ReplyDeleteThe actions of the "discipline committee" @FBC are not about restoring a brother to fellowship. The actions are more about getting even because the blog continued after warnings from the pulpit!
All of them, Doc Brunson on down, ought to be ashamed of themselves for dishing out mafia tactics! You know what I mean, do it my way or you will pay!
If I may interject some things here. First off, I feel there are wrongs that have been committed by both the leadership of FBC, as well as WD. The things done wrong by the latter is laying nearly every fault at the foot of the Brunsons. WD believes there is an evil motive behind nearly everything they do. That's wrong. The leadership have done some things wrong too, several in fact. Up to and including this latest move of power exhibited by the Kangaroo Discipline Committee.
ReplyDeleteHowever, there is one thing I have noticed both on issues with the Brunsons, and issues such as the rants about Purpose Driven, bible translations, music styles, etc. I see an overwhelming majority of responses not being civil or Christian in their manner. There are people calling others idiots, stupid, and trying to tear down the credibility of the commenter as opposed to just defending the side they take.
I won't give the "if a lost sinner found this blog they would not want to go to church there or anywhere else because they will think this is how Christians act" line because I really don't think any of them are looking for it, much less will find it. I know some of you are reading this saying "well we wouldn't have responded that way had the pro-Brunson guy not done so." That doesn't make it right. All I am saying about this is a little civility in disagreement would be nice, no matter WHICH side you are on.
To the blogger who said Brunson should have taken down Gilyard, that really isn't fair. For all I know, Brunson never MET Darryl Gilyard. So is every pastor supposed to hold every other one accountable in town? If they were close friends and someone knows it, then excuse my ignorance on the matter. But laying this at the feet of Mac Brunson is a major stretch in my personal opinion.
As far as the poor showing of the Pastor's Conference, my take on it is not many speakers people want to hear. As I commented previously, most of the well known guys who came every year are no longer with us. It's not a marketing problems, not a Brunson problem, not an A-Group problem, unless you want to blame their marketing of a poor lineup to be the major problem. I personally think the conference would have been down significantly in 2006 had it not been Dr. Vines last message as pastor of FBCJ. For future pastor's conferences, hopefully they have learned from this and will get a group of speakers people know and want to hear, along with not being an infomercial for the Theology Driven Ministry. When I read the seminar descriptions I thought they were 1 step from a 30 Minute Infomercial hosted by Billy Mays.
You say Watchdog sees evil in everything the Brunsons do, but I don't think he does. He like so many of us probably thinks there were some things done inadvertently or maybe stupidly or maybe even some were done because they thought they could get away with them-- such as wife/son on staff with no approval from church members. But that's not the problem. The problem begins when you don't care what your congregation thinks. You ignore their e-mails and just go on your way. But the blog would never have started if he would have just gotten up and said something like: you know, I handled some things badly and I want to ask your forgiveness and let's go on from here and please feel free to come and talk to me.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to his spending habits I think it should have been addressed right at the beginning. but he's probably too young to understand that you don't have to get everything you want. You need to save up the money & then get it.
The blogger did not say that Brunson should have "taken Gilyard down", as he had never met him, is no excuse for the facts he knew the circumstances and events and chose to do nothing; thus he still is a coward! And yes, every pastor is to hold other pastors accountable. Isn't that what the FBCJ is doing in holding others accountable by blogging. Get real.
ReplyDeleteAbout the pastor's conference. You really are off base. Even if the conference numbers were down since Vines left, FBCJ hired and paid thousands and thousands of dollars to offset this decline. Their marketing strategies failed. The "old-timers are gone, as we all know; had the marketing experts been successful they would have presented "replacements" that would have generated excitement and a new focus to which attendees would have appreciated and accepted. Your explanation is far-fetched and lacking all-around.
The A-Group wasn't the only marketing group the FBCJ folk paid for to ensure financial successes for the conference. Most members did not know they were paying for a second, consulting and marketing group to handle the "paper-side" of the conference. With so much outside expense, little was left to present FBCJ as the host of an event to look forward to.
As a member of FBCJ, 7:12 you should know better and be ashamed of following a leader who has lost touch with the common folk. Hang in there, you might get to have dinner at his country club.
Baptist Bandit - can you not respond to my simple questions? Which part of the blog is lies?
ReplyDeleteHere are the questions again: you say the church has "rock solid proof." Do you know what the "proof" is are you once again just trusting what someone else says. You do know "hearsay" is not reliable evidence don't you? Are you commenting based on "hearsay" sir?
And how will the proof show the WD to be a fraud, liar and slanderer. Will there be proof that the pastor did not accept a gift from J.D. Collins only three weeks after he arrived? (Perhaps the deed was fraudulent and the tax appraiser posted a false deed?) And did that commercial for Collins Builders, played right in the middle of a Sunday morning sermon, not actually get played? (Is that a lie of the Watchdog, too?) And what about the pastor promoting his Holy Land trips? Were those promotions never placed in the bulletin or on the church web site? And what about his adding his wife and son to the payroll? Is the WD lying about that? And what about million dollar home built at below market value by Howard White, and the free million dollar condo on Amelia Island for the first year? Are those "facts" actually lies.? And what about banning a man's wife from seeing her daughter sing for the sin of "associating" with her husband?
Is this the evidence the deacons will hear that will show the WD to be a fraud?
And if the evidence is so iron clad, why is the accused not allowed to be present to hear the evidence against him, confront that evidence and give a defense? Oh, because the discipline committee demanded he appear before them with no witnesses, no by-laws and no basis for any of their accusations.
Now, you tell me you are excited about this process by your big bad church against this blogger?
Thank God that courts and judges will enforce the laws and rules of this State if this blogger is lied about and slandered in this closed meeting and if any action is taken against him. Dr. Brunson has to respond to a subpoena just like the rest of us. This could get really, really interesting.
The Bible talks about a great falling away as the Lord's return approaches. Most of you guys sound like a bunch of lost church members who can't have their way and you're mad about it. As a pastor who drove over 700 miles to come here, I was challenged and encouraged by the whole conference. I thank God for Dr. Lindsay and Dr. Vines. I also thank God for Dr. Brunson. Grow up or get saved!
ReplyDeletePastor from MD
Everyone relax. Once this gets into the civil law area, rules of discovery and the laws of the State of Florida will govern. Then Mac will get his man to man, eye to eye questioning instead of questions raised on the blog. He can then answer ALL the questions, uder oath and under the threat of perjury. I can't wait. But lets wait for the kangaroo court, John Blount, and the deacons and trustees to take action first. Then the playing field will get level and none of Mac's yes men can help him once the subpoena gets served on him.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah, then we will find out who has been lying and slandering. And it is not the WD.
Pastor from MD -
ReplyDeleteI don't want to be disrespectful but what are you doing on this blog? Well, other than calling us a bunch of lost church members?
Pastor from MD -
ReplyDeleteI guess what I meant to ask is: How did you know about this blog?
Baptist Bandit is just another victim of the in-house drive-by. They say jump, and he says, how high.
ReplyDeleteAnon 7:12 again: I agree the pastor should answer his emails from members. I specifically typed there have been several things I felt the leadership has done which were wrong. About his son and wife being on staff. IMO, it's a non-issue. Neither one of them are pastors therefore them being approved by the congregation is not required. If you want to argue what it is they do, do they do anything worthwhile, why does she get to fly everywhere for the NAMB and we pay for it, that's all fine and legit. But the fact that they weren't brought up for approval by the congregation is over the top. To
ReplyDeleteAnon 7:32, this is the type of bashing I was talking about. You don't know me, where I live, where I go to church, or anything else. However, because I have a differing opinion and look at things differently than you do means I am some FBCJ Kool Aid drinker who "might get to have dinner at his Country Club." My apologies for not using an exact quote earlier, to say if "Brunson was an honorable man, he could have helped stopped the abuses of Darryl Gilyard; he surely knew the evidence from years past." You have no idea if he knew of his abuses in the past or not, or if you did you offered no basis that he did. Oh by the way, you throw Brunson under the bus but what about the honorable Vines? He was there for years when this was going on? What about Lindsay? He was around under the Bob Gray ministry at Trinity? Since you want to discuss misquotes, I did not say pastors should not hold other pastors accountable, I said is every pastor supposed to hold every other pastor accountable and if not are they no longer honorable whether they knew the guy or not? Again I will say, if he DID have knowledge this was going on and he DID know conclusively, he should have said something.
About the pastor's conference, I believe I closed what I said about the Pastor's Conference saying exactly what you did. I guess I am not as off base as you think. Again, if you want to talk about wasted apending, fine. Want to talk about it being an infomercial for TDM and no one wants to hear it or cares about it, fine.
Now to the following paragraph "As a member of FBCJ, 7:12 you should know better and be ashamed of following a leader who has lost touch with the common folk. Hang in there, you might get to have dinner at his country club." Again, this goes back to what I said in my other comment. If someone doesn't "hate" Brunson and has the nerve to say some of the things brought up here are not really issues, then that person must be a Brunson mark and be an FBCJ Kool Aid drinker who sits down front every Sunday and hangs on his every word. If someone feels Watchdog's points are valid, then to others those people are following Satan and are complete morons to the real "truth." If WD can see on the comments I have made along with my location with that IP address logger thing he has, he can see that based on both at 7:12 and now, I live NOWHERE NEAR Jacksonville.
Save the "well then you have no business commenting on something when you don't go there line." Plenty of people around the country comment here, and they are accepted as long as it is 100% Pro Watchdog.
It's amazing isn't it. All I did was ask for a little more civility in disagreement. But because I was neither pro or anti Brunson, I was chewed up and spit out by the others.
As an avid fan of the Andy Griffith Show, PLEASE don't compare our beloved Barney to the discipline committee! After all, Barney always admitted when he got "carried away" and told Andy he was sorry!
ReplyDeleteHow much more can we take? Is FBCJax Gods church? I have only been a member for a few years. I felt God's presence; however I lately I have noticed a change. I know God is not happy with all these issues. I assume the accused have left the church, but do not know for sure. I only know what I read here. I guess we will find out more on the 25th. I sure hope this stops before it gets out of control, if its not to late. WD was it you that received the trespass warning? If I were the one I would send a email back to Mr Blount letting him know if I my name was brought before the Church, I would bring legal action. There not members so I assume they could. All being said we all need to be about winning the lost to Christ or have we lost our first love!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis is no longer of any concern for FBCJAX and especially the disciplinary committee as this couple has voluntarily left the fellowship and joined another. They have moved their membership! This just plain bullying, pure and simple. What else would you call it?
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of the old saying: You know how you ensure that you have the tallest building in town? Tear down every building that is taller than you.
They have already left the church. What are we going to place them on double secret expulsion?
ReplyDeleteAnon.8:33: Your commentary was a bit rambling, please take "deeper breaths when "venting".
ReplyDeleteTo MD pastor: Glad you made it home safely in all of this bad weather. I would respectfully suggest that unless you live here and are IN this church and have been IN this church for enough years to know what it was vs., what it has become, you could not possibly know anyting about our "particular" problems. And might I suggest, as someone else mentioned earlier. It is very difficult to see all truth out of biased "pastor glasses".
Churches are in the latter days and are "falling away", and some pastors are helping. It's that simple!!
ReplyDelete1. An active member of an entity like a church cannot "trespass" if he's actively causing no disturbance during a public meeting--despite what the congregation's lawyers/judges have said;
ReplyDelete2. If a member could be charged with trespassing, so what?!--there are much worse things (in this case, to trespass only would be to violate the subjectively decided impositions of the church's unwise leaders--not to trespass in the normal sense of the word recognized by the public); if the alleged trespassing occurred due to convictions the member had regarding unaddressed leadership challenges, who really could fault the member? The press would have a field day with that one!
3. Trespass notices must be given at the time of the alleged infraction and on the property trespassed, with law enforcement officers present.
4. Will any deacon have courage enough on February 23 to ask questions about what is going on?
5. On February 25, will any church member present have courage enough to ask further questions about what is going on? If the answer to this question and #4 are "no," then God will continue NOT to bless the passive-agressive stance that everyone has chosen to take in addressing the matter.
6. In over 20 years of vocational ministry, I've NEVER seen such unwise leadership exercised by either paid or unpaid elected leaders in a church--and so many of them!
7. My guess is: some of FBCJ's associate ministry staff feel trapped by these circumstances, but are personally looking for a way out; I'd suggest they keep looking, before the entire matter comes to light without them having had enough spiritual backbone to say "enough is enough"--they're no less the called minister that the senior pastor is inspite of the wording of their personnel policies, but appear to be exercising no more good judgment that he has.
8. The answer: repentance and right actions from this point, forward (and leave the poor falsely accused brother and his family alone).
Sad day at FBCJ.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
ReplyDelete~Edumund Burke
I get the feeling that there are Jezebel spirits pulling the strings at FBC Jax.
ReplyDeleteI dont's care what the "trespass people" are supposed to have done. At this point, how much worse could it possibly be, than what this current leadership has done to this once great church?
ReplyDeleteMac declared that he and Debbie as a wonderful example to all of us, are going to "tithe on the tithe".
ReplyDeleteWhat a sacrifice. Mac is going to "tithe on the tithe".
Which means he is giving an extra 1%.
Yes, an extra 1% from Mac.
Wow, what a pastor.
Then, as only Mac can do, he yells at people who "argue about the tithe"
Yelling: "Take it up with Jesus, don't argue with the pastor...[screaming]GO TO THE BOOK, GO ARGUE WITH THE BOOK, BROTHER!!....You shook up enough?"
The guy yells at his congregation to shake them up. What a spiritually abusive preacher.
The guy is a jerk, plain and simple.
And church, we're $100,000 behind budget already.
Get ready.
When a church is behind budget it means they have to borrow money...its that simple. Otherwise they will have to let some people go. I suppose the PC lost money as well??
ReplyDeleteThe economy is tight and so are most people's pocket books. We shall see if the future holds out any possible means for this church or any church to maintain having its doors open shortly.
ReplyDeleteThe thief on the cross didn't tithe, didn't join a church, didn't get baptized yet he made it to heaven. Legalism requires all of these other things. That's why faith and faith alone are correct and only the correct way to please God.
ReplyDeleteI went to the Book. It says nothing in the new testament about me tithing. It did say the Jews used to give about 31% of their crops and livestock over the course of the year when all the temple taxes and offerings were paid. But NOTHING about carpenters, such as Jesus, tithing. Jesus never tithed. Its in the BOOK. Every "tithe" was a out of crops and livestock, never wages earned. ITS IN THE BOOK.
ReplyDeleteThe man thinks we are all Biblical morons. Its NOT in the book just because you yell at us that it is.
And hey, if it IS in the book, why not turn to it, and preach it using all the skills and talents you have been given by God. I bet you can easily persuade us that it in fact IS in the book. But you don't do that, because you CANNOT! Why, because it is not IN the book.
I hope the lawyer that takes Mac's deposition asks him where this is IN the book. And won't let Mac quote the Lindsay's as his answer.
I was sitting next to a visitor today at my church named Karen who said she was looking for a new church. I welcomed her and told her that we had a wonder church and a great minister. Our church only has 150 members an most are elderly, but this young pastor is starting to see some growth in the under 60 crowd and many new young families with kids. I asked her what church she normally attends and she told me First Baptist. Said she just did not feel like the church was filling her needs any longer and since she lived on the Southside of town, she would check out some of the smaller churches in the area. She told the pastor after the service that she loved what she heard, it was refreshing and inspiring and will be back next week.
ReplyDeleteMost of what Mac screams isn't in the book. If it were he wouldn't need to scream. The word convicts. Not the screaming, demanding preacher.
ReplyDeleteTithing was a Jewish principle. The "tithe" was given of livestock and crops. It was set aside in the STOREHOUSE. We in the church don't have storehouses as such. Even the IRS doesn't have a storehouse.
What happens if I go into a nursing home and they take all of my money. What do I tell them (nursing home) why they can't have 10% of my monthly medicare because I must tithe to my church? Do you think they will understand and give it to the church. Or will I get screamed at because the nursing home takes my money. What about homeless people that work day jobs or whatever they can get. Would they get screamed at and threatened because they don't give a tithe? Something some preachers won't have to worry about. Suppose I must choose between food, medicine and tithing would I get screamed at. Wonder how many people are in this position? Would you yell at someone that had to choose between food, medicine and tithing (WORKS) or do you think a loving God will understand and accept you into heaven anyway, because you BELIEVE IN THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS FOR FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS. AND BECAUSE HE DIED AND ROSE AGAIN YOU WILL GO TO HEAVEN.
ReplyDeleteMac is really beginning to look like a nut.
ReplyDeleteHe preached on "Kingdom Killjoys" tonight, and its so obvious that he is using scripture to condition his listeners to not pay attention to the issues raised about his land gift, his nepotism, the bylaws, the trespass notices, that he is really out of control.
And he again stretched one sermon into two...he gave one point of his sermon this morning, and wrapped 'er up tonight with a scripture, a couple of witty stories, an excerpt from Swindoll's book, a reading from Jefferson's New Testament...and it was another masterful performance by the actor Mac Brunson.
Its a sad sight to watch a preacher unravel like this right before your eyes.
Tonight he issued the warning that if people try to rob your joy in the church because of things they don't like, and they take the "trivial" (things like $300,000 land gifts, fraudulent bylaw changes, nepotism, trespass papers) and "magnify them" to have a reason to complain and not serve, he said, quote:
"Shut 'em down."
Not love 'em.
Not help 'em.
Not be patient with 'em.
Not listen to 'em and encourage 'em.
Not give a positive word to 'em.
Just shut 'em down.
No scripture that says "shut 'em down". An excerpt from Chuck Swindoll, but no scripture. No counsel on how to handle unhappy people in the church, or how to address lovingly concerns people have. Just shut 'em down.
Just "shut 'em down" - said in his stern way with a pregnant pause....
Then, he gives seven reasons why these people who need to be "shut down", what he calls "Kingdom Killjoys" do what they do.
And he doesn't give any scripture for any seven of them. Just "Mac's Awesome Seven Reasons I'm being attacked"...
The guy is NOT a bible espositor. We were sold a bill of goods. He is a story-teller. He is an opinion giver. And an angry one.
He uses his time on the pulpit as the Mac Brunson show. He uses a little bit of scripture as a story, a backdrop, to what HE wants to say.
He wanted to defend himself tonight, and go after those who have raised serious questions about his leadership, so he gives his seven reasons why Killjoys do their evil deeds.
Not a one of 'em he gives any scripture for, he just wants to attack the people he thinks are wrongly attacking him.
Oh, the day that we will have loving, humble pastor who doesn't have to waste one single breath defending himself or attacking his detractors.
Oh, what a day that will be.
watchdog, you need to leave this whole thing alone. You need to stop this blog and walk away from this. You are about to make a mess here, and you are going to turn a church in to a mockery, maybe in court, and you don't have to do this, cause you could shut this blog down. All this would probably stop if you shut this thing down. So DO IT. You said you were going to anyways. Cause where you are heading i really believe is going to cause you a WHOLE lot of trouble. You are messing with a church, not just a pastor, and its not good. Its time to think about what God would want, not the Watchdog...please for your sake and your family. Im trying to be helpful here.
ReplyDeleteI was visiting a church today and I found the Pastor preaching verse by verse. It filled my heart and soul. It truly is the food that God designed for us.
ReplyDeleteI also noticed, when the time for offering came up, the Pastor suggested, if any one was in need, they can help themselves from the offering plate. This truly warmed my heart.
Off Topic:
Cindy's blog: The Marks of a Cult
With the explosion of different sects that claim to honor and follow Jesus, how does one differentiate between true Biblical Christianity and an aberrant religious movement? Just what are "the marks of a cult?"
Cindy's blog has excellent resources in combating cults and spiritual abuse.
Thanks Anon for your expressions of concern.
ReplyDeleteI believe your comments are fitting for Mac Brunson.
Mac, get on with leading the church, forget about the Watchdog, and stop attacking people and using your pulpit for your personal agendas.
Its a church he's messing with...and he's about to make a huge mess.
Dr.Dog..I knew Mac was a fraud well before I ever read this blog..Talking with friends who were and some that are currently still members,plus some of the decisions he made right after he arrived,I new FBC Jax was in for big trouble...This guy is so out of control it's ridiculous!!.It can't get better it can only get worse and worse and worse..I think the sign that really convinced me that Mac was a wolf was his GREED;;;This is always a bad sign,because greed is always associated with deceptive men who infiltrate the Church..Hey Pope Mac you know the New Testament Church is not under the tithe..So now that people are wise to your antics you threaten and attempt to coerce people to tithe..PHARISEE!!!!Hey Mac the NEW TESTAMENT;thats the NEW TESTAMENT commands NO tithe,the NEW TESTAMENT PRINCIPLE FOR GIVING IS FROM THE HEART AS ONE PURPOSEES not out of grief and duty(grudgingly) or under compulsion or coercion(necessity) God loves those who give from there hearts cheerfully[2Cor.9:7]..Oh by the way MAC;Christians give according to what they have and not what they don't have[2Cor.8:12]
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:54pm..I suggest that you put the koolaid down and back away slowly...Dr.Dog is not the one causing FBC Jax problems;;IT'S MAC!!!!Open your spiritual eyes and LOOK!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI read the email that one of the members had mentioned here they had sent to attendees of the Next Generation unveiling. That email was asking for PRAYER regarding concerns that have been raised on the blog here. Could there have been one that responded to that person and said YES I WILL PRAY WITH YOU? Haven't we just completed some lessons about prayer? What? Especially if folks are in leadership they certainly should be praying and not responding with hateful remarks. It has come down to the point that we have an atmosphere at FBCJ where we can not even SAY let's pray about the issues that have been brought up? That is pretty pitiful!
ReplyDeleteI just can't believe all this is happening.
I fear the church is about to split beyond repair.
The Dog was planning to stop blogging. But with this continued discipline process of the accused, even after the family moved to another church, demands the blog stay up to keep the entire nation informed. Mac continues to do exactly the opposite of what he needs to do to quiet the blog. When the blog asked for more transparency, he changed the by-laws to give less transparency. When some folks privately emailed him, he dug in and made it a conviction not to respond to their concerns. Every time the WD says he is shutting down, Mac gets aggressive and causes it to stay up. Arrogance, pride and very poor counsel, is keeping this mess around. And soon, depending on the action the church takes, the blog will be the least of Mac's problems. He didn't like emails, so he chose the blog. Now, he doesn't like the blog, so he is choosing civil litigation. Unbelievable if it were not happening right in front of our eyes.
ReplyDeleteThank you It Is Written: The New Testament church certainly is NOT under the law, nor is it under the mandate to tithe!!!I have been saying this for years. One gives out of a desire to, not out of compulsion. I just wish I had the money I gave at my church in the past back. I gave it in combination of being told I had to be obedient and also because I thought it was helping to spread the gospel. But what I really did was help keep up a church to fall into the hands of an opportunist!!! Now I can hardly afford a trip to St. Augustine much less the trips some leadership takes to Europe at the expense of some paying Christians. By the way I must buy my shoes at Payless. I cannot afford to pay for the fancy shoes Maurilio wears. He did "tweet" about them. My clothes come fron SALES. I can't pay full price for anything. And I could never afford the clothes some preachers and wives wear. So don't yell at me to tithe. I am trying to pay my insurance bill and my electric bill this month thank you.
ReplyDeleteJesus is not going to send me to hell because I don't follow Old Testament Law !!!!!!!
I just have to state a few comments about things that have been written and said over the past few weeks.
ReplyDelete1. It hurts me to see our church start to discipline people. I can not for the life of me understand that concept. The church is suppose to be a place of healing, support, edification, love, and acceptance. Good gravy, if we can't come to the church as we are, then were do we good! If Jesus could reach out to the woman at the well or the man with the demons, and the other sinners, then we have NO excuse, justification, right, to run anyone off of the church. If my heart hurts, I can't even imagine what Jesus must think!
2. Pastor's Conference was a farce. it has lost its purpose, as with so many other things in our church. Still not sure what Tim and Rusty were all about, or the Vietnam presentation, or for that matter some of the preachers. The pastor's conference was created to showcase FBC and what we are doing to reach the lost and to rejunivate the pastors with good preaching and music. It looks like a glorified missions conference.
3. WHEN are we going to focus on the lost and hurting in Jacksonville? Yes, I understand there are hurting lost people around the world, but we are NOT the IMB, we are a local church NOT reaching those around the corner! How glorious it was to hear Johnny Hunt talk about LOVE LOUD! What a great concept! We have people in our church hurting, marriages on the brink, lost people in and out of church, our buildings are falling apart, our music has losts its zeal, message, and heart! GIVE ME JESUS! GIVE ME JESUS! GIVE ME JESUS! REACH JACKSONVILLE! REACH JACKSONVILLE!
That is what I heard when I walked in the doors so many years ago! That was the church I used to attend! That was the reason I came to FBC!
Please GIVE ME JESUS!
This church has run off or silenced many of the Godly people that helped make it great. They have been run off or silenced either directly or indirectly. Some are physically still there waiting and praying for things to get better. But they have been silenced. If you have an opinion contrary to leadership, you better keep quiet. Even if you have been there many years and have helped build the church spiritually and numerically. Some of the members thought it was ok to shun and mistreat other members, because leadership encouraged them to. Therefore, participating in hurting other members. But there seems to be a shortage of anyone willing to apologize, or to take responsibility for their past actions toward others. But God knows about it. Even if many are still following this destructive path. The peoblem is, I and others, don't SEE any new preachers that are in the mold of a Lindsay, Rogers, or other GOD CALLED preachers. There are many self called, to the position, to the money etc. We are in a bad way in the churches of today. I am not called to preach, but even I could deliver better more God honoring sermons than are coming out of many pulpits today. I even know church history!!! But I LOVE to talk about JESUS. I LOVE to witness to the lost. I love Gods Word, particulary the NEW TESTAMENT. And my greatest blessing here on earth, is to lead someone to know JESUS as SAVIOR.
ReplyDeleteAs the last blogger said the conference looked like a mission conference. I think that was by design. Maybe that is the next destination for this leadership. If so by all means get it done. So we can start rebuilding this church to IT'S FORMER MISSION, SERVING JESUS. And loving the people.
I have known you for years and find it truly unbelievable that you would make all kinds of twists and turns trying to divert attention from yourself. If you are so unhappy at FBC you can move your membership the same as the 71 other people who have made comments on you blog. I would "out" you but you seem to be doing a great job at destroying your credibility. The only reason that you have enabled "comment moderation" is to prevent someone from "outing" you. Why don't you just go ahead and see if your name gives you any credibility. Since we have know each other for years, I assure you that it will not. That is why you are "anonymous". As far as you allege that you have moved your membership form the congregation at FBC, you are still part of the "Church". Perhaps your "new" congregation has not sent you request to move your membership. As far as the "other 71 people" that have left comments on your blog. There is no way that you or anyone can document their authenticity since even you can respond to your own blog from another computer system and create what might make folks think that others are also "upset". Again, if you do not tell everyone who you are, I might have to "out" you myself. The years that we have known each other makes me sad to think of you as a friend, especially in the light of all of the strife that you have attempted to cause because of your petty jealousy. You are obviously not that Christian man that I once knew. Be a man, act like a man, and let everyone know who you are. I assure you that if you do, your credibility will erode even further and then you can stop the charade and move on with restoring your fellowship to the Church of Jesus Christ and not the congregation of the First Baptist Church.
ReplyDeleteBlessings to you too, Anon 12:48.
ReplyDeleteAbout the "outting"....let the church leadership handle that. They have everything under control, and will be putting forth the results of their deacons' investigation, and the person they think is the man responsible for the destruction of their church will be "outted" before the congregation. They'll even tell you who he is, what he has done, and what they are going to do about it. You will even have a chance to "ratify"...that is, give your approval...to whatever they decide to do it. Whatever anger you have against the Watchdog, just hold it and give out a hearty AMEN! and AMEN! when they ask you to vote on the recommendation of the deacons as to how the accused shall be disciplined. After it is unanimously approved, you can give out a hoot and a holler, and clap, and shout that finally, someone has taken action against the man accused of running this vile blog.
So just sit tight, friend, wait for the deacons meeting 2/23, and likely 2/25 they'll "spill the beans" on the Watchdog and you can make your voice be made known, as they cleverly draw you into be part of the revenge.
All done out of Christian love, right?
Even if I knew who Watchdog is, which I don't, I think he has reported accurately here on this blog., things going on at FBCJ. Watchdog is not the one that has committed the abuses described on this blog. He certainly isn't the one screaming Old Testament law from the pulpit and trying to scare the people into obeying and not disagreeing or be threatened with excommunication,Baptist style. Maybe I will know who watchdog is, when and if it IS the Watchdog maybe I won't. Maybe, I will like him, maybe I won't. I just think he has been fair so far in his assessments. And for those who have had less than a good experience at FBCJ, we can identify with abuse. I hope no one gets hurt in this mess. This was once a great church. I know none of this stuff happened in 60 years. So what's different now.
ReplyDeleteanon 12:48 - why would the WD's name coming out either give him more or less credibility? The land gift for $307K was given to, and accepted by, the pastor and his wife just 3 weeks after arriving. That is against the pastor's own advice in his Pastor's Guidebook. The commercial for Collins Builders was also played during the sermon. No way to blame that on the WD. It has effected the credibility and motives and ability to lead of the pastor. Would revealing the WD's name change that?
ReplyDeleteAnd what about the rest of the facts that have been discussed here? Do any of those change just because I find out who actually is blogging?
I don't understand your logic? Please explain.
And by the way, as soon as he ever stops blogging, I know of several, including me, who can't wait to start up our own blog. And we won't be as nice as the WD has been. :)
Question: Has ANYONE at the church ever approached the accused blogger, whether he be the WD or not, about the blog and asked him to stop?
ReplyDeleteI recall Dr. Brunson telling an interviewer that he sees blogs as nothing more than a bunch of women sitting around a beauty shop gossiping. Was he lying when he said that? Or did he really mean it. And if he meant it, why bother this particular blogger/salon?
Interesting...the supporters of Mac Brunson say this blog has no credibility since its bloggers are anonymous. Yet, one enlightened supporter just wrote to tell us that he knows who the WD is and if he is "outted" his credibility will drop even further. Which is it? Should he put his name on it or not to increase his credibility?
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:48 - YOU ARE DELUSIONAL. Your sorry comments are laughable, too. The rest are lies!
ReplyDeleteWD - keep up the great work. The world NEEDS you, Amen.
Mac and his minions are hack shake-down artists, wanna-be street thugs.
Every preacher faces some opposition. Only Mac has been arrogant enough, and unwise enough, to garner the need for a blog for over two years. Says alot about Mac doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteFor those of you in full support of the Church Discipline against the Watchdog, I have something for you all to consider: The accused has already left the church, so the committee's concern is not so much with the accused, whoever he is, but with ALL OF YOU. They want to make sure that ANY staff member, or deacon, or other leader understands clearly how they will be dealt with, if and when they ever have a concern. Like Mac said, he will deal harshly with the WD to put the FEAR OF GOD in YOU! So all of you, be afraid. Be very afraid. You will reap what you have sown. Have a nice day. Go get em!
ReplyDeleteI recently heard the peacher state a friend of his was resigning from his pastorate due to the fact 2 people in his church didnt like him. He immediately said, "what? good gracious alive, have you read what is on the internet?"
ReplyDeleteKEEP UP THE GOOD WORK WD!!
I do not know who the watch dog is . I have been told who recieved the no tresspass letters. I have great respect for the couple who I have heard who got the no tresspass letters and want to know if they are on in the same. At first the watchdog denied he was the family who recieved the no trespass now watchdog you just ingore it. How am I suppose to know how to react in a business meeting ? If you are one in the same I know your family I have worked with you at church but if you are someone diffrent I only know you by this blog. So how am I suppose to react at the business meeting when I dont really know who is writing the watchdog and if you are the couple not writing the watchdog then let us know.
ReplyDeleteI'll answer that for you 2-52.
ReplyDeleteGo the deacons meeting, or if you're not a deacon speak to one AFTER the meeting is over.
You will learn they have rock solid proof they have nailed the Watchdog. The accused and the Watchdog are ONE. They are the same. No questions or doubt. He is nailed.
Listen to the men and their evidence. They have investigated ths, and the deacons will vote. Likely to be discussed will not just be whether to remove them from fellowship as they have already moved on, but what other actions are to be taken to uphold the honor of our church and our pastor. That is to say what actions should be taken to force the slander to be removed from this site.
The accused guy is the Watchdog. Trust me. They have the proof. He has rejected any overtures of reconciliation, and so the process of church discipline is to be carried out as required by the church bylaws and by scripture.
It is very sad it has come to this, but there is no choice according to church bylaws.
Anon 3:41pm....QUOTE..."Listen to the men and their evidence. They have investigated ths, and the deacons will vote. Likely to be discussed will not just be whether to remove them from fellowship as they have already moved on, but what other actions are to be taken to uphold the honor of our church and our pastor"......You're KIDDING RIGHT!!!!Well since you seem to be so informed please help me to understand something?...Does your Pastor bear any blame in the way things have transpired at FBC Jax or is he totally innocent of any wrong doings?
ReplyDeleteHere is a question, If anon (who is also ANON) knows the WD, and WD moderates the site, why would WD post the comments from the anon who knows who he is? That would be rather stupid.
ReplyDeleteSB
Yes, and who wrote the by-laws, and when. I wish I could "rig" circumstances to make my life easier. We must of course, up-hold the by-laws, at all cost. Even if it means a church split. Keep in mind the people had no in-put into these by-laws. Do you think they are a little biased and "rigged" toward the preacher? There is a stiff necked...I am going to show you people not to mess with me attitude on the part of this pastor. I am going to WIN. So what will winning mean? A defeated church that is ruled over with an iron hand. A kind answer to original questions put to this pastor would have saved all of this. The bible says "A soft answer turneth away wrath." Trespass papers somehow don't fit this bill.
ReplyDeleteWho cares about the evidence against Watchdog. So what. The abuses by this leadership still remain.
But, what you bet, after this carnage has happened, a kind, sweet, loving attitude will then flow forth. And then everyone will say, yes it must have all been Watchdog and the bloggers fault. Because look how nice everything is now. Vintage, extra strong, undiluted Kool-aid!!!
Help me understand 3:41, how do you know all this? If you know then tell the rest of us. I do not want to believe some of the things on this blog however most of what I read seems to be true. Even if the know who the WD is and lets say it is the one you know there is nothing the church can do to take down this blog. What will they do sue him? People can read this blog its just up to each one of us to decide what is true. Look at the facts and see if you can come to a conclusion. I believe if things were well at FBC Jax this blog would have already been shut down.
ReplyDeleteanon 3:41
ReplyDelete"but what other actions are to be taken to uphold the honor of our church and our pastor."
Are you serious?
You must not be able to read the issues raised on this blog or you are in Dr. Brunson's pocket.
The way for honor to return to FBCJ and the pastor is for him to eat some humble pie and fess up to the dirty doings going on that have been deceptively done. They didn't even have the honesty to say "Look there are some considerable differences in the bylaws so please go read them before you vote". The church could have easily put them on the website to make them available to everyone. But we wouldn't have voted yes to approve the changes then would we? Maybe the congregation will be more forgiving of him than he is of a blogger.
There are only a couple ways the church can know for sure who this blogger is and most of them are illegal so I sure hope they tell the truth about their so called "proof".
Anon 3:41
ReplyDelete"Go the deacons meeting, or if you're not a deacon speak to one AFTER the meeting is over."
The logic of that statement speaks for itself, but let's look at it. If I am deacon I am probably "required" to attend this meeting on the 23rd. I am pretty sure not everyone will be allowed in this deacons meeting, so therefore I should go and "hang out" after the meeting and I am sure they will be talking up a storm about what took place in this meeting. Goofy. You're just silly, just like you knowing exactly what evidence they have on the WD.
How old is Trey again? Seems like something a youngun would say.
I am not swayed by inuendo or opinion. I have read this blog and have verified the issues raised by WD with facts. The supporters of Brunson like glossing over the facts - they speak for themselves. They are more bent on keeping up the illusion that FBCJ is the church people have known over the years. It's not - and by a long stretch.
These I "know who you ares" are flailing as a desperate person would do who is drowning and can sense that death is not far away. The more things are revealed, the more threatening they will become. Truth will come out - whether people want it to or not. This will not be covered up - Brunson and FBCJ have played their hand and now they must show what they have - truth will prevail.
Someone mentioned the woman at the well. How about the woman caught in adultry, Zacaeuss the tax collector, the chief priests, Herod, and Pilate and all those attending the crucifixion. What did Jesus do...did He call 10,000 angels to come down and set Him free? No. He said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. No pastor has been ever experieced being totally alone like Jesus was from the Father. Wherever this leads those that follow a man rather than Jesus, it will only hurt them in the long run. It has nothing to do with getting a church member back into the fold. They have already left the fold and obviously do not intend on going back. Its all about control..control...and more control..its that simple. The leadership has bought into this formula and will carry this as far as they are led. Such a shame to be doing what is not good for any church...trying to get someone to quit talking and claiming they are divisive. People are talking and more every day...thats life.
ReplyDeletePs 34: 7. "The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them".
ReplyDeleteSome more examples from the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" are fitting for this topic:
ReplyDelete"If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated....The 'can't talk' rule, however, blames the person who talks, and the ensuing punishments pressure questioners into silence" - pg 68
"The real problem, however, is that if a Christian who feels violated stops talking, then the perpetrator will never be held accountable for his behavior...Though some in authority would love to never be questioned or opposed, the fact of the matter is that such a system is a trap and downfall for any leader." - pg 69
"This is done by publicly shaming, exposing or threatening to remove people from the group...it is the fear of being exposed, humiliated or removed that insures your proper allegiance, and insulates those in authority....People are made public examples in order to send a message to those who remain."
"When you see people in a religious system being secretive - watch out. People don't hide what is appropriate; they hid what is inappropriate." "Another reason for secrecy in a church is that the leadership has a condescending, negative view of the laity...they tell themselves, 'people are not mature enough to handle truth." pp 77-78
Sounds like the authors have been attending FBCJax, doesn't it?
God help your church.
D
Matt 5:14 " Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid". Even the smallest of candles puts out the darkness. We are to be salt and light. Its a real shame that truth cannot be tolerated even in some churches!!!
ReplyDelete"My take on the current turn of events by the discipline committee is a direct result of the poor showing at the Pastor's Conference last week. Mac, Trey, staff, Amaron/Marketing, trustees, etc. want a scapegoat for the dismal results. The Watchdog is the ultimate sacrifice, as they have no one else to place the blame upon. "
ReplyDeleteThis is probably very true. If things were going great and the blog had no one reading, they would ignore it. It would be stupid not to. Why give the blog or the supposed blog oweer so much attention unless it was having an effect on the pocketbook and church growth? The blog is making Mac look like exactly what he is. A 'hirling' and a wolf. The blog is not helping Mac be the big celebrity he had envisioned for himself.
The only defense here is an offense. If they can make that person the bad guy, they think they can gain credibility.
If they are not careful, they can be individually liable for harrassment and slander. Not the church but the individuals involved. They need to be careful and all those helping Mac, need to think that through carefully. One reason is because that person is not there anymore. Certain courts are not looking on this sort of thing with neutrality as much as they used to.
Looks like the blog is working.
Matt
Someone in an earlier blog., said that the budget was behind $100,000, maybe that is why such angry yelling at the congregation was the "fare" Sunday. And maybe that is why Brunson is so after the Watchdog. Maybe the blog has an effect on the money coming in. People get real nasty when their power or money are threatened. I would be more worried about what Jesus will say at the Judgement Seat if I were a pastor. Jesus is the one I want to please. Sometimes these pastors think anything they say or do to someone else or even a whole congregation is "ordained by God", because they happen to be in the pastor position. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be a pastor of an "end time" church.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:30pm....The Bible predicts in the last days these Church Pastors would be OUT OF CONTROL..The state of FBC Jax falls SOLELY on the shoulders of Pope Mac the First..You can take this to the bank;;What drives Pope Mac is internal GREED and AMBITION not Christ Glory..His abusive behavior towards anyone who defies him belies his disqualification as one CALLED BY GOD to lead his people..Mac reminds me of the bullies who with their buddies would torment me and the other kids when I attend junior high school..But as soon as someone stood up to them,or he didn't have HIS posse with him,this bully turned out to be a COWARD!!Remove Pope Mac's from his henchmen and we'll all find out that Mac's nothing but a BULLY and a COWARD at heart!!!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat is likely to result from the February 23 and 25 meetings is a lawsuit brought by the falsely accused against the congregation and its leaders for liable and slander. Those are charges which a court will pay attention to, and the court's investigation will result in a full copy of the congregation's new bylaws being exposed (counter-charges brought by the church's leaders will be dismissed as having no basis; the WD is permitted to exercise his/her right to free speech in reporting personal views about what has taken place during worship services or business meetings). The city of Jacksonville will have a clearer picture of the congregation which invites its residents to join, and the SBC will have a clearer picture of leaders who have invited their fellow-pastors to "do church like we do church." The Lord Jesus likely will be ashamed, it seems, of those He redeemed in hopes that their transformation would be real--particularly toward each other.
ReplyDeleteThe entire matter is based upon either an errant view of pastoral authority held by the senior pastor and/or other leaders in the church OR unhealthy/immature passive-agressive tendencies by both parties. Resulting from each usually is more harm, not more health.
It is appropriate to respect the biblical role of the senior pastor. It is not necessarily appropriate to respect the senior pastor in his service--as that respect must be earned, or earned again if he fails. When a senior pastor fails and refuses to correct his behavior, it is appropriate for the congregation to take action either to correct him or to remove him from the position for the sake of the Gospel and the progress of the church. It is appropriate for other ministers on the church's staff who have more health and integrity to take the initiative in the matter if no one else will. Of primary concern to the Lord, it would seem, is the church and not the senior pastor--at least as is reported in these matters.
People in extremely responsible positions at FBCJ are fearful. That isn't godly, nor a characteristic produced by the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers yielded to Him, nor a quality ever seen in the Lord Jesus. NO ONE who is a member of FBCJ can say--or, it appears, will be able to say after the upcoming meetings--that Jesus Christ was permitted to be in control of these circumstances; no one else in the SBC--many of whom are watching--would agree with an assessment like that.
Some truly God-honoring decisions must be made and actions taken during the next few days. If not, worse appears to be the inevitable outcome.
Based on modus operandi of fbc jax leadership, the decision to shut this blog down, has already been taken. My understanding is, they probably already approached Judges/Courts to silence this blog. So the meeting on Mon Feb 23rd, and church body ratification is only a formality. If you are in doubt, look at how the change in bylaws were enacted and the new school was formed. All the plumbing and infrastructure was already in place, even before the "vote".
ReplyDeleteSo now comes the subversive part.
This is addressed to all those anon bloggers who wish to continue in the footsteps of WD:
1. Please make your own copy of WD's blog. Get a site crawler. Do it in off hours. Ex: Free Download Manager. There are countless others that do the job.
2. Internet is truly across countries. So the long arm of florida law can not reach you. There are places around the world, you can post replicas of this blog. Eventually Google crawlers will find these replicas and they will be indexed. It will be much harder for Fbc Jax leadership to shut down these mushrooming replicas.
3. Please think through the consequences properly. Also develop good habits that protect your anonymity. This is actually harder than it sounds.
I understand that so far no deacons meeting as been scheduled for Feb 23rd...maybe they are not having one...
ReplyDeleteAh...I just found out...there will be a Deacons Meeting on Monday, 2/23,...it's official
ReplyDelete