Below is Mac's attempt at an apology of sorts at the end of the Easter service 4/12/09. He doesn't say what he is talking about, just that he is alerting the congregation to the fact that he is not infallible. He says:
"I am a sinner...I have faults...I'm not inerrant, and I'm not infallible, and I'm certainly not perfect, and I just want you to know that."
"I am a sinner...I have faults...I'm not inerrant, and I'm not infallible, and I'm certainly not perfect, and I just want you to know that."
Thanks for clarifying, as we all have thought you were sinless, Mac. And he doesn't say what he's sort of apologizing for - for the whole mess in the newspaper, or maybe for diagnosing me as a sociopath. But he then goes on to say whatever it was he was sort of apologizing for, he did it in the best interests of the church, because he is the great bastion of protection of the church.
Listen for yourself. He has his humble voice on. No stomping. No yelling, just humble Mac.
231 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 231 of 231Several times it has been mentioned that MB is called to live up to or be held to a higher standard. I am not sure I understand this.
Whether it is MB, WD, me or any other Christian, the standard is Christ. At least that is how I understand scripture when I read it. The bible says, Be holy as I am holy.
Now if WD is not required to live up to this standard as a Christian then what standard beneath this is his or my goal?
I really would like to know because if the standard I am going to be held to is less than holiness that would permit me to less determined to live without sinning. I will be able to relax some and not worry so much the sin in my life but be able to point out the sin of those who MUST live to a greater standard.
Life can be so much simple this way.
I apologize if this rambles on but I am trying to put all this together in my mind. I, personally, find it refreshing not to have to worry as much about my sin since I am not held to an equal standard.
April 15, 2009 10:15 AM
This is a great point and deserves an indepth answer but a blog comment does not give us the ability to do that. But...
Here are a FEW scriptures that might help you understand. They are about being an elder and teacher. (Pastor is mentioned only once in the NT)
One reason why these scriptures are so meaningless to folks in a mega church is because they do not know their leaders intimately. They only know the persona on the stage or at events.
James 3
1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
1 Timothy 3
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 ****Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil******.
1 Peter 5
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; ****not greedy for money***, but eager to serve; 3****not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock****. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away
Matthew 7
14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Titus 1
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
Titus 2
1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
Mac simply has been a professing professional 'Christian' on stage for so long that his behavior can be judged as fruit. A good tree does not bear bad fruit. If we are not to judge such things then why did Jesus teach us to look at fruit? So that we would not be deceived by those who are out to profit from the Gospel.
In Matthew 7 He is talking about 'professional' Christians NOT UNBELIEVERS. He is talking about those who think they are doing GREAT things for the Lord. It is a chilling passage.
Matt
I heard more vulgar language and trash talk from the staff of mega churches than I did in the corporate world. It truly is astonishing. Some actually believe it makes them more culturally relevant.
What is in the heart comes out of the mouth.
Matt
"Pardon 5000 also where is the book of "CRAP" in the Scriptures???."
Philippians 3:8. The word translated "rubbish" or "dung" is actually much stronger than even "crap". "
Context is everything and as a 'pastor' you should know that. Paul did not go around saying that all the time nor did he put it in the Epistles all the time. It is being thrown around here as every day speech.
Let's look at the context. Paul is talking here about being ALL IN CHRIST and compares the things of the world he has lost as rubbish compared to Christ.
Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Now, is this how the word is being used here?
The Scriptures hold Pastor's to a higher calling,because they are supposedly speaking for God HimselfWell it is good to know WD does not speak for God, Himself.
May I ask then... to whom does WD speak for?
The bible says, we are either for Him or against Him. I do believe that would include the words we use.
Lydia,
You didn't say anything about context in your original post. All you questioned was the word being used in Scripture and I showed you ONE example. "Dung" is used numerous times in the OT.
I am curious why you put pastor in quotation marks. Have you decided that I'm not? If so, how did you come to that conclusion?
Dee Lauderdale
James 3
1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
So I ask... Do Christians who are not teachers supposed to be less than holy? Is this about what one teaches or can a Christian non-teacher be less than holy?1 Timothy 3
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 ****Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil******.
So men and women who do not hold the office of a pastor or deacon do not have to live up to these standards? If one does not desire such an office they can live less than moralistic this?1 Peter 5
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; ****not greedy for money***, but eager to serve; 3****not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock****. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away
See last responseMatthew 7
14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Do you think a non-pastor person could be a false prophet?Titus 1
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
Do you think gain is only financial? Could it be support for a specific cause?Titus 2
1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience
I would think all Christians should live up to such a standard, but that's just me. Maybe you see it differently.10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
This could apply to more than just pastors.
I am not saying a pastor should not live up to biblical standards but to say other believers should not set for themselves as believers the highest possible standard is silly at best.
For a Christian to hold up the Word and demand their preacher tow the line but refuse to themselves is hypocritical, at best.Mac simply has been a professing professional 'Christian' on stage for so long that his behavior can be judged as fruit. A good tree does not bear bad fruit. If we are not to judge such things then why did Jesus teach us to look at fruit? So that we would not be deceived by those who are out to profit from the Gospel.
And when one judges such things to be wrong is it acceptable to make it a public issue (like start a blog), write things comparing him to other pastors who have molested boys and girls, been sexually immoral or fraudulent and refuse to go to that person, even if it means you might be mistreated?
When does a man who gets to live less than holy, be held to a lower standard, gain the right to hold someone else to a higher standard? This could easily be a plank and splinter thing.In Matthew 7 He is talking about 'professional' Christians NOT UNBELIEVERS. He is talking about those who think they are doing GREAT things for the Lord. It is a chilling passage.
Yes it is but the standard for every believer is holiness and yes I think MB should be held to such a standard but so should WD and myself... and you.
It is even more chilling when we hear preaching which calls us all to holiness, not just the few we want to be holy.
Anon 8:32,
I believe Anon 3:55's comment was TIC. :-)
Just a reminder of what you're dealing with in the person of Dee "I'm a guy, you idiot" Lauderdale...
"That's Mr. to you" Lauderdale dropped in on the NBBCOF two years ago. Here are some select quotes of his from the pastors.com site:
"Some know that Bellevue Baptist in Memphis is in the middle of a church war."Speaking of those same people he wrote...
"These people are pagan vipers who have decided that they and they alone are the only ones who can approve what happens in a church."In true form the moderator of the pastors.com forum, Tony Liston, had this to say...
"If you see or suspect one, let me know. I've got an axe I'd like to lay at the root."
...
Dee Lauderdale continues...
"Sheep are stupid and need to lead! OK, that's gonna make some people mad but it irritates the crap out of me when martyred church people refer to themselves as sheep who need to be tended to by shepards (sic). If they really knew what they were saying about themselves I doubt they would continue to use that imagery!"I assume he meant "need to be led."
Then he said...
"Here's a verse that God has used to remind me of how I'm susposed to behave as a pastor in leading a church, especialy in these types of situations:
'Again I say, don’t get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights.A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.' 2 Timothy 2:23-25 (NLT)"Yep, that's Dee "not that it matters but I'm a guy" Lauderdale, a "man" with a real pastor's heart! Just warms your cockles, doesn't it?
Dee needs to heed his own advice and go back to his own sandbox.
"and you will know they are chritians by their love..."
Here is an excellent response on tithing by Tom Atkinson at Searching Together. He makes this point which is crucial to understanding giving in the New Covenant:
"Nevertheless, the common denominator is that people, not things, are to be the object of all New Covenant giving! The majority of passages show it to be Christians giving to Christians in need (Matt. 25:34-40; Acts 6:1 and 11:27-30; Rom. 12:13 and 15:26-27; 1 Cor. 16:1-4; 2 Cor. 8:4 and 9:1,12,13; Eph. 4:28; 1 Tim. 5:16; James 2:14-16; 1 John 3:16-18). Several passages also encourage believers to give to “elders” and itinerants who serve humbly as faithful guides and teachers of the Word (Matt. 10:10; Luke 10:7; 1 Cor. 9:4-14; Gal. 6:6; 2 Thess. 3:7-9; 1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Tim. 2:6). The Lord also wants us to give to those in need who cross our path (Luke 6:29-30; 10:25-37).
But the NT knows nothing of giving to a burdensome ecclesiastical infrastructure—large buildings, expensive building projects, maintenance, and staff salaries. It is certainly not the true church gathering from house to house referred to in the New Testament or the persecuted church seen throughout history. Furthermore, monies donated toward these institutional entities subtract significantly from the funds available to the saints to give to those sanctioned by Scripture!
Read it all at http://searchingtogether.org/tithing.htm
and check every scripture reference in context to be a good Berean.
This will probably be just read over and passed by but I pray it makes an impact on somebody.
In John 11:35 it says "Jesus Wept".
I am sure has been for a long time.
My heart cries for all in this situation as I have been in a very similar situation in the past and believe me, in the end ALL of you also be VERY heart broken.
This is so sad. Really sad. I am Praying for all that Christ intervene and that he become the real focus - If nothing else All should be Following Christ, NOT any man, anywhere!
That is what I learned through all my storm!
If I may assist anyone in resolving this ...please, please email me at dlp35@att.net
I weep for you all, I really do.
Just listen to this song and pray;
Doug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DjRGrOG3NQ&mode=related&search=vestal%20goodman%20gaithers%20christian%20religious%20god%20jesus%20gospel%20spiritual
From A Former FBC Insider:
I've been following WD for quite a while, and everything, EVERYTHING he has posted is true. I've been happy to see that he even backs up his truth with facts and videos so his word does not have to be taken at face value. See for yourselves. I also happen to know Tom personally. He is NOT the kind of guy that you'd ever think would draw attention to himself, which is why it makes such good sense that he has gone anonymous in his blogs. He has a great family to protect. Now Mac on the other hand... he is a very visible personality and with that comes critisism, or backing and blindly following... you've seen it all here and on WD's blogs. It will never change. Blind people just keep following, it's so much easier that way. They don't know how to find the way themselves. I hope the truth continues to come out. Mac will not resign, he will not be kicked out. He might, MIGHT take it upon himself to be encouraged to leave IF he is made uncomfortable enough by bloggers, readers, his congregation, and all of us who have turned in our letters of resignation this week who have been sitting dead on the rolls of FBC for way too long.
I'd like to encourage anyone else who thinks your name is still on the rolls at FBC to make haste and finish business ASAP. It will send a message all it's own. Numbers mean a lot. You know what I mean.
Thanks to Tom for the encouragement to do the right thing.
We've been known as the church with 26,000 members, but truth be told the FBI couldn't locate 20,000 of them. Reason being, if you don't "letter out" to another baptist church, you stay on the roll UNLESS you write a letter of resignation... which I've done this week. To answer your question, balcony level has been closed off on most evening services if not all of them. The auditorium holds just less than 10,000 so that would leave about 5,000 seats empty. There has been only a steady decline since Mac. Nothing that could be projected as of WD and his blog. Too many are willing to be the blind, just following. And those who have left, if they haven't left into the membership of another Baptist church, are just left hanging onto those dead rolls that claim to be the 26,000. Be encouraged! Letter out by your resignation letter. We are admonished to sail under the flag that represents US. Not a pirate ship that we hold no loyalties to.
Christian School Confidential > to the blogger's of Jacksonville.
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My hat's off to you! You've got First Baptist Church using city detectives to discover your identity so they could kick you out of the church, even if you already left. LOL!
That happened to Thomas Rich of fbcjaxwatchdog.com.
Article: Unmasked blogger blames First Baptist/Sheriff's office.
A few years ago, I championed the idea of someone within an abusive church to start a blog but NOT be anonymous about it. A church, which is non profit, cannot keep you from attending their meetings because of your opinions. If they keep you out, then their meetings are not really open to the public. Their non profit status can now be put at risk.
No one did that. Not until now, that is.
We have Thomas Rich.
Thomas was already leaving FBC when they had a detective, who happens to be a member of their church, use his position with the city to get google to unmask the identity of Rich. Now, even though he's left, they're making it look like they're the ones who kicked him out.
Tom, you need to make a U-Turn and STAY at First Baptist Church and keep blogging. Don't pretend you just want to go away and worship the Lord in peace. You did this to make a point, now go back and make it.
You have a court case, Tom! Go for the jugular and put their non profit status at stake! And take it to the Federal level, not the state.
FBC has now created by-laws to deal with members who are bloggers.
Thomas, you want them to intimidate more bloggers?
Get back to FBC!
Let them know if they keep you out, their tax exempt status is at risk.
It's the only language they understand..
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my TPM blog > And yet again -- another blogger outing.
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This time it's Jacksonville, Florida.
Glass half empty -- another example of authorities used by an influential local to prosecute a local blogger critical of him.
Glass half full -- we're approaching the liklihood of a Peter Zenger case for bloggers.
This time it is even scarier. This time a blogger was simply critical of the new pastor of a Church he had attended. The pastor asked the local police to investigate, and -- by some strange coincidence -- the policeman in charge of the investigation was also a member of the Church's security detail.
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The pastor made claims of some petty offenses supposedly occuring at his church that, he claimed, had occurred after the blog began. To quote the paper "The Rev. John Blount, executive pastor of administration, said he contacted Hinson directly regarding increased "vitriol" on the blog about the same time mail was stolen from the Brunson home and someone was surreptitiously photographing Brunson's wife. Also, someone had contacted vendors lined up for the church's annual pastors' conference and made critical remarks about Brunson to them, Blount said."
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This complaint enabled the investigator to get a warrant that forced Google to reveal the name of the blogger. (Two other bloggers were also investigated. Apparently, their names have not been revealed, they did not focus on the Church, though they may have linked to the main 'target of the investigation.') The policemen never contacted any of the blogers, and reported that there was no evidence of criminal activity.
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At this point, despite the questions of conflict of interest, it is possible to argue that nothing had been done over the line. Certainly a polie department has the right to investigate breaches of the peace, and I don't think any of us who have seen some of the dangerous blogs of religious terrorists, home and abraod, would want a flat-out ban on such investigations. Of course, looking at what I have seen of the blog, a further case can be made that the investigation should have been dismissed about .279 seconds after the complaint was filed on the grounds that the blog was merely critical and hardly inciiting.
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But that moves the question to 'where do you draw the line' -- worth investigating, but the next step was clearly so far over it that we can defer that discussion to a later story. Because, having discovered and reported that there was no evidence of any criminal activity, the policeman then reported the blogger's name to the pastor.
This is awesome! Way to go FBCJ! Nice job hiring a pastor! Where there is smoke, there is fire. You morons. All your moron preacher had to do was act like a SERVANT LEADER and lead WD. That's all it would have taken. But no, he had to get all fleshed out and react to WD like WD was a dick for wondering what happened to the church he knew and loved. What a fine group you are.
Reading through the FBCJ comments is like reading a "Who's Who" of people that want to curse (and do privately) but won't do it here (though some are on the edge) because, afterall, "I do go to First Baptist downtown." LOL. You slay me. Just do it already. Come on, let's get it all out. Tell WD how you really feel!
Laodicea ain't got nothing on you folks.
My prediction? One day you'll thank WD for getting this all out. This is a long-time needed purging. You want focus? You got it. Get rid of that fleshed-out excuse for a pastor. Man the hell up and get focused on what is really important, or are y'all too busy surfin' internet porn? Take your church back and make it what it once was. It used to be a lighthouse. Now it's the "Comedy Zone." Who picks your pastors anyway? That committee needs to get saved. LOL.
ABP News > Authorities expose blogger who has been hounding FBC Jacksonville.
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JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (ABP) -- The sheriff of Jacksonville, Fla., is defending actions of a detective who obtained a subpoena to learn the identity of an anonymous blogger critical of the pastor of the church where the detecive is a longtime member and serves on the security detail.
Thomas Rich, until recently a member of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, filed a complaint asking why Jacksonville Sheriff's Detective Robert Hinson investigated his website, fbcjaxwatchdog.com. Rich also wanted to know why, after concluding the investigation and finding no criminal activity, Hinson revealed Rich's name to church leaders anyway.
Rich said Hinson's actions invaded his privacy and infringed on his First Amendment right to free speech, which also includes anonymous speech..
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Daily Kos > FL megachurch security detail/sheriff's dept unmasks blogger's ID.
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I know this isn't much of a diary, but I thought this was important enough to post. (It's my first one--be gentle!)
A blogger critical of First Baptist Church Pastor Mac Brunson wants to know why his Web site was investigated by a police detective who is also a member of the minister’s security detail..
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Megachurch Uses Police to Out Critical Blogger's Identity.
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Here's a disturbing story from Jacksonville, Florida, where a sheriff's deputy who also does security for a megachurch he is a member of got a subpoena to force Google to out the identity of a blogger who was critical of the church's pastor, Mac Brunson. The blogger, Thomas Rich, wants an investigation and he certainly ought to get one..
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First Baptist Church of Jacksonville Florida: Snakes and Vipers.
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Please pass this along. I just don't have the time to really go into all that is wrong with this situation, but I would love to see more folks post about this and show FBC JAX that attempts to suppress dissent will lead to a greater dissemination of that dissent. And though I am no longer a Christian, I still believe that it's important to strike a blow against those who misuse the authority they are granted, such as it is, as leaders of churches..
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On my soapbox RE: FBC Downtown.
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Have you ever been hassled by members of First Baptist Church of downtown Jacksonville, just for skating past the church on the sidewalk? I have. Numerous times. Apparently they own the city blocks and all the sidewalks around the church. Weird, huh? Check out what I read today about the church via jacksonville.com. Basically a blogger critical of the church was investigated via a subpoena to Google. A detective, who was a security detail for the church, basically broke the law and outed this guy. The article also illustrates some slanderous words used by the pastor of the church to criticize this blogger. From the blog in question:
My initial comment on the article: how sad to read the depths that Mac Brunson has sunk to. A pastor, a man supposedly called by God Himself to love and shepherd Christians, that he would unequivocally declare to a news reporter that I, one of his sheep until just recently, am "obsessive compulsive", and that I am "not stable at all", and the real humdinger that "What you're dealing with here is sociopath". Mac suddenly knows my mental state, when he has never met me, my wife, or my kids. Not one single conversation with the man and he declares me to be a sociopath. People who know me at FBC Jax and my new church and elsewhere know this is not true and just a pathetic attempt by Mac to attack the credibility of one of his critics. The sad truth is that Mac telling a news reporter this lie about one of his sheep speaks more to Mac's lack of character and lack of a pastor's heart than it does my mental state. Thank you, pastor, who never met me or my wife or my kids - for lying about me to Jeff Brumley - but I do forgive you, brother.
Look people, this is a Southern Baptist Church. Mac is angry, so What! We have been angry for years about people playing cards, young people going dancing, and the evils of the NIV! Leave Mac alone! Yes he is acting a little crazy but what do you want...Mac going over to the Episcopalian Church? They don't make collars that big and if he gets some of that Boone's Farm in him, somebody is going to get hurt! Let him get back to important stuff like preaching against HBO!
Hey NewBBC.....
Good to hear from you again. See you can still cut and paste with the best of them. Just a couple of clarifications:
1. Yes I did make those comments on another board. I was letting my fellow pastors know that there was a wolf in our midst. Worked too.
2. When you put words in quotations it gives the impression that I said it.
I never called anyone an "idiot", I said they were cowards for not signing their name. You know, like you.
I also never said "that's Mr. to you".
Before you burn me at the stake could you at least do it for stuff I actually said. You don't have to make stuff up, I'll give you plenty of ammo.
So, how's your crusade to get rid of Gaines going?
Dee "I sign my name" Lauderdale
www.deelauderdale.com
"So I ask... Do Christians who are not teachers supposed to be less than holy? Is this about what one teaches or can a Christian non-teacher be less than holy?"
Friend, The scripture says that those who teach will be under stricter judgement.
Without Holiness...no one will see God. That verse does not negate the verses about elder qualifications and warnings to teachers.
"So men and women who do not hold the office of a pastor or deacon do not have to live up to these standards? If one does not desire such an office they can live less than moralistic this?1 "
I hope you will understand scripture. First of all, we are all 'ministers' if we are truly saved. We are all part of the Holy Priesthood and have anointing IF we are truly saved.
We have a very limted understanding of 'leadership' because of faulty translations. (Most of our translations come from the KJV who were laboring under a church/state mentality and were careful not to upset the kings authority)
Hebrews 13:17 was translated very badly. There are no offices (that word was added by the KJV translators) there are only functions in the Body. One function is elder.
The 'leaders' in the Greek are those who 'go before us'. They are to model Christlike behavior for us. They are the ones who live out Matthew 5 as a MODEL. As a matter of fact, that is the basis for them becoming elders. (In scripture, elders are more likely to be the ones doing most of the teaching).
So, for the purity of the Bride, it is essential that the leaders/teachers model Christlike behavior...to stand before us.
The rest of that verse is translated very badly and is best read in an interlinear for accuracy.
Without that "modeling" many new Christians do not know what a true Christian is like. When our elders model the 'worldly' system, then there is no true Body of Christ.
"Do you think a non-pastor person could be a false prophet?"
This is a good question. What does the word 'prophet' mean?
And keep in mind that most of what we read in the NT are 'non pastor' persons. Paul was not a 'pastor', as we have defined it in the West but he was a teacher, evangelist, Apostle (one sent out), etc.
For example, Can you tell me who the pastor or elders are in the Corinthian church? The Philippian church? The Colossians?
Yes, I think false prophets can be others besides what we think of in the West as pastors. Benny Hinn is not a 'pastor'.
Think of this passage in Matthew:
10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
In this passage false prophet means 'religious imposter'. And because some 'turn away from the faith' does not mean they left church. We see this explained elsewhere in scripture. Many are actually teaching/leading.
Prophet means foreteller or 'inspired speaker'. You can see the danger of being a false one with the definition.
Jesus was called Rabbi by many which means Teacher.
Evangelist means preacher of the Gospel
"Do you think gain is only financial? Could it be support for a specific cause?"
The Greek uses "aischros kerdos" which means filthy or vile lucre or gain. So no, I do not think it could mean a good cause.
"I would think all Christians should live up to such a standard, but that's just me. Maybe you see it differently."
I do agree. It is horrible when our leaders do not model the fruit Jesus speaks of in the scriptures.
"For a Christian to hold up the Word and demand their preacher tow the line but refuse to themselves is hypocritical, at best."
I really do not understand this. It is not about towing a legalistic line. It is about living out the Gospel as one who goes before us. It is about walking in the light as a lifestyle. (1 John)
Do you think there should be no standards for our leaders? Do you think we should ignore 1 Tim 2 and all the others?
Where does that put us when an elder who has been saved for many years and supposedly studying and growing in Holiness shows little fruit of that life except for some right words from the pulpit. Even the demons know correct doctrine.
Here is another verse that should warn us about Pharisetical leaders:
2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
At first this seems contradictory to other things Jesus says about them but it isn't. He is admitting that they can teach the law correctly. But he is saying they do not practice what they preach.
"I am not saying a pastor should not live up to biblical standards but to say other believers should not set for themselves as believers the highest possible standard is silly at best."
I never said that. I am just trying to help folks know what a true elder looks like. They are so rare, most do not know. It is perfectly ok to question these things. We must grow in discernment and wisdom which is given by God....if we ask and believe.
"And when one judges such things to be wrong is it acceptable to make it a public issue (like start a blog), write things comparing him to other pastors who have molested boys and girls, been sexually immoral or fraudulent and refuse to go to that person, even if it means u might be mistreated?"
If they are a public teacher it is most definitly right to ask publicly. John called out Diotrephes publicly. Paul rebuked Peter publicly and never went to him privately beforehand. Paul explains why he did it so others could learn and be warned.
There is a huge myth being taught from pulpits about things being handled in secret. It is wrong. Everything hidden will be made known. Most of what scripture teaches about false prophets, wolves, hirlings, etc is about BEHAVIOR. Only about 10% is about false doctrine.
"Yes it is but the standard for every believer is holiness and yes I think MB should be held to such a standard but so should WD and myself... and you.....
...It is even more chilling when we hear preaching which calls us all to holiness, not just the few we want to be holy."
It is even more chilling to hear preaching like that from one who has shown to have no fruit after so many years. Because of what scripture teaches about elders.
But what you really want to do is hold WD accountable who is not teaching/preaching but NOT hold Brunson accountable who IS and is very public as a celebrity.
That was really the point of your comment. And I understand you. If you can make WD out to be the only real sinner here then you can feel good about supporting Brunson and ignoring facts about his behavior that do not represent an elder as defined by scripture.
Matt
"We've been known as the church with 26,000 members, but truth be told the FBI couldn't locate 20,000 of them. Reason being, if you don't "letter out" to another baptist church, you stay on the roll UNLESS you write a letter of resignation... which I've done this week"
This is a huge problem in the SBC and we have been completely dishonest about it. Richard Land wants DC to think we have 16 million potential voters.
Here is how it boils down for mega's:
1. People come and never officially join.
2. People join and never come
3. Some mega's inflate their numbers by counting folks who join a group that meets there like divorce recovery, AA, etc. (I know of one who even counted sports leagues as 'joining')
4. The terms 'attendance' and 'member' can be interchangable in mega lingo.
5. I know of 3 mega's right now that were publishing numbers ranging from 18,000 to 25,000 who have 'attendance' of about 4,000 to 9,000. (And one of them is counting kids under 3 for the first time to get the numbers up)
6. Mega's know they are revolving doors and have to constantly be upping the ante with more events, activities and programs to attract folks. After a while, it just looks like another form of entertainment with Madison Avenue type promotion.
It is all about nickels and noses. Get them in to get money. They give if they are there.
Matt
When Baptist Church pastors, their assistants and security people start acting like the "church" of $cientology, well, yeah, I can really understand why WD would want to remain anonymous.
You people who have never been harassed by a "religious" organization don't even know what a "treat" it is to have your neighborhood plastered with flyers calling you a "religious bigot." Complete with picture! Or having people picket your home. Or have a flatly libelous website that is the first or second thing that comes up when someone searches on your legal name. You simply have NO CLUE. (Yes, I'd love to sue the pants off the website owners, but when they're backed by a very wealthy and famously litigious "church," not gonna happen. It was just easier to change my name.)
And, frankly, Mac Brunson and his followers, by going to the police and using the power of the state to settle scores, they've shown that they'll go to whatever extremes necessary to root out their enemies. (So much for "bless them that curse you," etc.) Add a "no criticism" amendment to the church bylaws, and you have all the ingredients for a Christian version of the "church" of $cientology.
If your tax-exempt organization is not being run to the highest standards, you should expect that someone's going to get onto you to clean up your act. Mac should take this as a warning. I know I'm getting real tired of paying more taxes so that Ye Olde Megachurch down the street can be tax exempt. Especially when Ye Olde Megachurch gets involved in abuses of power like this.
As a former FBC member, I am sickened and appalled to know what is happening. I left FBC shortly after Vines departure to care for an ailing family member. I hate to see the reputation of this church come crashing down. I met many great people of God while at FBC, Sunday School Teachers and members. I grieve along with the membership. Watchdog, you are doing the right thing, being the Watchman on the wall.
REALLY!!!
Why don't you just find something else to rant about? Maybe if you spent as much (ok, maybe half as much) time with your family as you do tearing down the family of God, you'd find the answer you are really looking for. What that might be? Maybe salvation - maybe??? Just move on. And as for filing suit against FBC, you brought this on yourself - no one to blame but you.
ALERT!!!!
Folks wake up, we are in the last days. Think about it. Paul was talking about our age rather than his. The young church of the 1st century was strong and willing to die for the Lord Jesus Chirst whether by having their heads removed, thrown to lions, or as candles on crosses for Nero.
Apostacy reigns in our day and age. The love of money has ruined a lot of ministers and churches...thats why they fail. They were never called to begin with or thought they were doing God's will till they were found out and moved to other venues of opportunity. God does not allow the gates of Hell to defeat the true Christian and He never leaves or forsakes them.
The problem centers around pastors that do not believe nor teach that the bible is 100 pecent accurate. They fail to believe that God could preserve His Word as the bible declares. The world has been brought into the church rather than the church going out into the world and showing the love of Jesus. That is why there are so many of these programs that never reach anyone. This event and that event. A lot of movement with advertising and marketing plans which do not recognize the Bible as the authority but the "TEAM". So far, most of these teams have failed to start even one revival. Talking about revival, when was the last time your church had a week long revival? Back in the 1950's Billy Graham was going to hold a two week revival in NY, but it was so filled with God's hand on it that the revival lasted 16 weeks and many came to know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Prayer and strong preaching kept that revival going, going, and going.
Buildings and schools have now taken over in most Mega Churches as the central theme. Not winning the lost and not helping the unfortunate...the down and outers...they have no money so just ignore them as it is not profitable. Instead of congregational leading and Holy Spirit driven ministries the pastor and a few select individuals take complete control of the church and run it "their way" which automatically causes division since the members have no input in what happens in their church. Not to mention stifeling the work of the Lord. It is take it or leave it, or better yet get out of here. So according to the Bible there has to be a "falling away". This started years ago when the CHURCH stood by and basically approved of abortion, or at least a tepid stand was taken, no prayer in schools, or at football games, ten commandments not displayed in schools, Christmas scenes discouraged, student prayers not allowed at graduations, etc,etc. This was the beginning.
So you think the church is strong...what is it doing for the community. How many are protesting to the government. What sermons are going against the grain of those that are "politically correct" in order to keep their tax exempt status. It would appear to be better, if the pastors declare "lets pay the taxes and forget what is politically correct", and preach the whole counsel of God. God might just hear from Heaven and heal our land...thats what the Bible tells us to do. When will a pastor or a group of pastors step up and do the right thing? Everything else pales in comparison to the Great Commission. Heaven or Hell is the final outcome. We do not fight against flesh and blood but powers in high places. These high places, whatever that entails, are being protected by Satan since he is the Prince and Power of the Air. Think about it. Satan has us fighting against one another concerning the authority of the scriptures just like he did with EVE. His plan never changes as he knows it works.
The answer, pray about it and ask God to change our city, our state, and our nation. Lets get back to that old time religion. Fifty years from now most of us will be dead. A hundred years from now all of us will be dead. What are we waiting on? I had rather please Jesus, as He is the only One that counts, and the only One that deserves our allegiance, after all He bought our very souls with His sacrifice on the Cross.
Some of you people are absolutely amazing. You keep saying that Mac needs to be accountable and to answer questions. How do you know he hasn't? Are any of you on the Budget Committee, Personnel Committee, Deacons, or any valid committee in the church?
Of course not. You're just here to stir up dirt and discord just like the Watchdog. He's not on any committee and certainly isn't a deacon and it sure shows in his blog.
He got exactly what he deserves and now he needs to move on.
To All Readers on BOTH sides of this issue: Think about this. Mac Brunson has SPLIT the church, ON PURPOSE. Even those of you who love Mac and support FBC, you KNOW that you better never question anything or make any comments that leadership might perceive support the WD. Mac and his leaders have made it clear there is no middle ground here. You either hate the WD or you hate Mac. (Hate evidenced by disagreeing with or questioning leadership.)
That is splitting the church. No room for disagreement. Choose a side and shut up and support Mac. Or leave if you support the WD. It didn't have to be this way. Mac could have simply addressed some concerns and the blog would have been irrelevant.
Mac has continued to make miscalculations, believe lies, and get bad advice. Now, he is stuck. It is too late. He can't talk to the WD now because his lawyers are telling him not to. And the lawsuits are on their way. And whatever side you are on, you know the church does not want their pastor deposed and so many other facts made public. So again, the church loses. Why? Failed leadership.
So no matter which side of this you are on. It is obvious, Mac must go. I don't like it. Nothing personal. Its just business. Mac has to go. Now. Before the depositions are taken.
To quote Jeremy Foley: What must be done eventually, must be done immediately. Fire Mac Brunson now. Or Mac should resign. Now.
To Barry, Dee & other idealistic but uninformed posters:
You come and post over and over again about how the WD supporters are doing wrong wrong wrong because we agree that the unloving, uncaring attitude of mega church pastors, in particular Mac Brunson, should be exposed.
The WD supporters have always cared about our church. And yes, REALLY, the WD supporters have indeed tried contacting Mac Brunson, by letter, by e-mail or by phone. The result is the ranting and raving that comes from the pulpit. I asked for just 15 minutes of his time and was told that it wasn't necessary, that he didn't need to hear my concerns because he already knew them, understood them and didn't need to hear further about them.
Yep, that's a pastor that missed the classes where they discussed how a shepherd loves his sheep, even when he may not agree with their concerns.
Frankly, I have never heard of any condescending shepherds running around, degrading the sheep by publicly calling them ugly names.
Jesus is THE example of a Loving Shepherd. Mac apparently never learned that you can be loving and if necessary, stern at the same time. He must have received an A+ grade in the class on sterness and just missed the one telling about love.
What it boils down to is that you have read the news article and made a decision that Mr. Rich "got what he deserved." You have no idea what you're looking at here. A pastor who is willing to publicly degrade his congregation doesn't deserve to be a pastor.
It's a shame you won't leave all comments. I left one last night but apparently you didn't like it so you didn't post it. So, you like controlling? Huh? What a surprise.
" The Internet, the Great Equalizer!
Mac's ministry at this church is history. Guaranteed!
He will be resigning soon if he is a smart man.
Been there, seen this before - twice as a matter of fact.
Again I say,.... THE INTERNET, THE GREAT EQUALIZER"
Yes it is...and I hope it continues against those who promote deception and hate from our pulpits.
If you are going to "quote" someone, you should at least make sure you document them word for word. Anyone can "quote" and spin the words to their benefit!
Mr. Rich, there are so many things I would like to say to you, but there is not enough time to write everything out.
I only ask you these few things-you want FBC to be as it was with Dr. Lindsay, correct? I know that FBC is a LARGE church and we may never have crossed paths over the years, BUT the Dr. Lindsay you seem to have put upon a pedastal and the WONDERFUL MAN-OF-GOD I remember were obviously two different people.
Dr. Lindsay often said that if someone sent him a letter "anonymously", he threw it in the trash. Dr. Lindsay had no problem standing up for what he believed in and did so proudly and boldly! Dr. Lindsay also told our church during NUMEROUS sermons that the preacher was the "HEAD" of the church, was held to a higher standard with GOD for the decisions he made regarding the church. He got that from the bible in 1st Timothy 3. The bible also states that God's word will NOT come back "void", it is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. When Dr. Lindsay went to heaven, God did not decide to change that particular part of the bible.
Sir, I have to say that the Dr. Lindsay I loved and admired would be VERY DISAPPOINTED in your actions! NO MAN is perfect, not Dr. Lindsay, Dr. Brunson, me, nor you, BUT MY DR. LINDSAY would NEVER have tried to tear someone down and he DEFINITELY would NOT have done it ANONYMOUSLY!!
There were quite a few men and women on the pastor search committee and they were in complete agreement that Dr. Brunson was the man God had led them to for FBC. Mrs. Lindsay said the same thing, I heard it come out of her mouth with my own ears. If you were unhappy with THEIR decision and the one the church voted on, you could have simply left and found somewhere that made you and your family happy. A father is responsible for his household (like a pastor is a church) and is to lead by example. I wonder if during any of this, you realize the example you have set for not only your children, but others? Have you thought about how this is a "turn-off" to people that NEED the LORD?
One last thing and you can correct me if I am wrong, but I can NEVER recall Dr. Lindsay trying to APPEAR as a martyr, nor was he one to try and draw attention to himself. You, sir, have succeeded in doing BOTH with your WHINING!
You have ranted for MONTHS stating DOCTOR Brunson is not humble, but people that live in glass houses should not throw rocks! Yes, I was saying you are NOT humble!
I see you enabled the "comment moderation", so I am sure since this doesn't line up with your view, it won't make it on, but I certainly have no problem giving you my name!
Shannon Smith
Shannon - stop living in the past. Dr. Lindsay is gone. Other than his chest of Joash fundraising gimmick, Mac and Maurilio have not even tried to continue with the leadership style of this humble man who walked with Jesus and had the respect and love of all who knew him. I knew Homer Lindsay, Jr. and Mac Brunson is no Homer Lindsay. Please don't disrespect Dr. Lindsay and his memory and legacy by using his name in any way to defend the fleecing of this congregation and the branding of Team Brunson for their personal wealth. Mac and Honey and Trey and Maurilio have split this church. Period. Good luck blaming it on ONE man who chose to blog. I hope it makes you feel better. Sheesh!
By the way, if you want to see your posts on the blog, please post your comments in the current article. :)
And my name, like yours, is irrelevant. So unlike you, I am not posting mine.
I doubt that was an apology at all. It sounds like just part of his sermon.
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