Jeff Brumley has a new article today at the Florida Times Union on church discipline. Click here to read it.In this article you'll be able to read how A.C. Soud is calling me a "coward" in the newsaper. "The coward that he is...." says Soud. Soud has certainly taken the cue from his pastor, Mac Brunson, and decided the best way to answer questions is to be sure to call the blogger names. I hope all of Jacksonville is taking this in. First, the Senior Pastor Mac Brunson calls me mentally unstable and a sociopath in the paper, and now the President of the Trustees of FBC Jax calls me a coward. Can we next get Jim Smyrl on the record? Perhaps he would be willing to call me a few names.
Brunson's and Soud's name calling in the local newspaper says more about those two men and the church they are leading, and the people at that church who continue to grant Brunson and Soud their power, than it does about me. Shameful.
Not only does Soud engage in name calling, but he gives a lame excuse for the trespass papers being issued to me and my wife as the first step of their unbiblical church discipline processes. Soud says that I was having somone "watching a Brunson sermon in Tennessee" and suggested people disseminate the blog in their Sunday School. Having someone watching a sermon? Recommending that people tell others in their Sunday School about a blog that discusses church matters? Those are threatening? Unbelievable.
Then Soud offers this gem:
"Our purpose was: 'You are staying off campus until we know who you are, we can see you face to face,' " Soud said. Their goal was then to reconcile with Rich in a "Christian fashion," he said.Funny, Soud says they wanted me to stay off campus until they knew who I was. Well, Detective Hinson told them who I was, and they knew I was a 20 year member in good standing. They knew who I was, and where I lived, when Blount and King came to my house to give me my letter of 16 sins and my trespass papers. Let it be stated clearly: none of these men - not A.C. Soud, Mac Brunson, John Blount, Kevin King, Jim Smyrl, David Bristowe, David Kay, Bob Harrison, Jerrett McConnell, Jerry Ward - NONE of them ever came to speak to me about the blog, or asked me to shut it down, or offered to answer any questions - they all just decided to sign a letter and trespass me and my wife. Now THAT is bravery. Despite their pastor preaching to them about biblical church discipline for 2 years, they didn't have the courage to actually employ it. They took, shall I say, the COWARDLY route, and wrote a letter and trespass papers and sent Blount and King on an errand to drop it off at my house.
It would be very interesting to hear Soud explain why my wife was given a trespass paper for the sin of "associating" with her husband. It would be very interesting to hear Soud explain why they had to tell my wife that she couldn't come on the campus to watch our daughter sing in her ensemble, and why she had to sit in her car outside the church while my kids went to church. What threat did SHE pose to the church, A.C. Soud? Why did Blount file trespass papers against my wife with the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office on December 10th for "church misconduct"? Can Soud or Blount explain what was her church misconduct? Was that a move signaling "reconciliation"? Or is it more like retribution? These guys should be ashamed of themselves.
If their goal was to "reconcile" in a Christian fashion as Soud said, they had a strange way of showing it. I offered multiple times in December to meet with their committee if they met several very simple conditions for a meeting, but they would not.
Supplemental Reading
Here is some informatoin for my readers that will give greater context to Jeff's article:
To read about the church discipline process that these guys used against me and my wife read this article, which has hyperlinks to their letter and trespass papers:
To read what lengths FBC Jax went to in order to find my identity:
and
Watch and listen to Judge Soud read the Deacon's Resolution 2009-1:
140 comments:
I certainly do not condone name calling by either sides of the issue! I do believe that the name calling does show the level of hurt felt on this issue and the fraility of the human condition! When someone or something they strongly believe in is attached that the baser nature of people has a greater chance of coming out!
I for one apologize to Tom and his family for the name calling! It is regretable!
I do not condone Tom's attempt to say he is innocent in all of this! He had numerous opportunities to meet with the committe but chose to not do that because he wanted "representation" there! That is not appropiate for that forum!
Tom, how about taking the advice of your new pastor and drop all this! Hopefully, everyone can take the high road and bring glory to the name of Jesus!
I certainly do not condone name calling by either sides of the issue! I do believe that the name calling does show the level of hurt felt on this issue and the fraility of the human condition! When someone or something they strongly believe in is attached that the baser nature of people has a greater chance of coming out!
I for one apologize to Tom and his family for the name calling! It is regretable!
I do not condone Tom's attempt to say he is innocent in all of this! He had numerous opportunities to meet with the committe but chose to not do that because he wanted "representation" there! That is not appropiate for that forum!
Tom, how about taking the advice of your new pastor and drop all this! Hopefully, everyone can take the high road and bring glory to the name of Jesus!
WD it seems as though A.C. Soud should be standing before the almighty and all powerful judge, (that's Jesus Christ A.C.), not Brunson. You all will give an account for maligning the name of Jesus. You will some day stand before the REAL JUDGE and answer for your doings. You had better fix it now, because to try and fix it later wouldn't be a smart thing to do, being that no man knows the day or the hour wherewith you will give an account. This isn't the Jacksonville court house' system you are dealing with. God has allowed you become judge (and He has allowed you to), whether you think so or not. And how much glory are you giving Him for it? How fair are you to others you stand before you A.C.? Examine yourself to see if you are really in the faith. And for the sake of the Gospel, get a REAL back bone to replace the spineless one that you cover up with your man made robe.
all of you involve in this folly, should really take a look in the mirror (the Word of God) and examine your true motives behind all of this.
"That is not appropriate for that forum."
Sure, according to the six men who sent me a 3 page letter accusing me of 16 sins, giving me and my wife a trespass warning - sure, they wanted me alone with them in a room with no one with me that could confirm what was or wasn't said.
There was no way I was going to meet with 6 men who accused me of the terrible sins they had accused me of - and who were vindictive enough to issue my wife a trespass warning - unless I had someone with me. That is just common sense and you know it.
If they truly, truly, wanted a meeting of reconciliation, they would have allowed me to bring someone with me to the meeting, and they would have told me that it was the JSO who had identified me.
Sorry TP - I won't be drop this at all. As a poster said yesterday, I'm just getting started. And dropping this will not give glory to the name of Jesus. Nice try also TP, to try and pit me against my new pastor, but your tactics won't work there either.
Truth Purveyor
Tiffany Croft stated on her blog that she tried to get Brunson to meet with her and Tom to iron things out. I understand there was more than one attempt at this. Brunson is the one who would not meet to talk.
Soud is the coward. And the liar. And before this lawsuit is over, the whole city and world will know it. His statements don't even logically make sense. Where in the Bible are trespass warnings biblical church discipline? Why involve the man's bride? Why hurt their children? Why not go and meet with the man Judge A.C. Coward? Were you afraid of the Watchdog? Maybe these cowards really were afraid of Yvette? Smyrl says he has five guns in his home, maybe he is the coward. Where was Smyrl when it came time to meet with Tom? And why is it cowardice to not confront Mac about his personal gifts and nepotism? That would have been a complete waste of time. Sheesh! Soud looks like a very small minded, little man in all this. Nice resolution, "judge" Coward. JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED.
Welcome to party Judge A.C. and Ginger Soud! Let's find out more about the Night to Stand with Israel you both emceed at our church.
This whole fbc jax saga is truly sad.
When I first started watching fbc jax through the internet, I truly loved this church. I found the music ministry and preaching to be a blessing. I never once missed a service.
For almost a year, I had not known anything about any blogs of southern baptists. Ignorance was truly a bliss.
I only came to know about fbc jax watchdog's blog, after repeated mention in the sermons of Pastor Mac about his anguish.
I have always felt that if Pastor Mac approached this in a Christian Way, he would have won over the dissenters easily. But again, the whole blog was based on this lack of, in the first place.
If, fbc jax leadership had truly followed Christ's path, this blog would have become irrelevant. If they had truly listened to Watchdog and others concerns and proactively became transparent, all of watchdog's points would have fallen by the wayside. Also it would have been powerful testimony to the world of the efficacy of Christ's Words and the power contained within them.
Now it truly has become how not to do things in a Christian Way.
I have felt that this process carried out by fbc jax was not truly Church Discipline at all, but sheer vindictiveness.
How the mighty have fallen? This whole process is more a reflection of fbc jax leadership than of watchdog's lack of courage or Christian following.
From my perspective, this lawsuit going forward, main purpose is to bring to light the reasoning behind this church induced state action, so that future actions like this against bloggers or others who are being critical of churches have a pattern to follow or not to follow. A record if you like.
And this broadcasts to the world, the lack of Christian following being practiced by the fbc jax leadership. Of course all this is my own opinion.
Also, when fbc jax started broadcasting it's internet service, it's for others outside of jacksonville (even within jacksonville) to watch it's broadcasts. There was no crime being committed if someone in Tennessee is watching it.
This is the whole purpose of internet broadcasts.
Founders Ministries Blog > Dr. Tom Ascol: WSJ on church discipline.
Alexandra Alter wrote an article on church discipline that was published in the January 18, 2008 edition of the Wall Street Journal. It is ominously entitled, "Banned From Church." While I applaud the WSJ's effort to examine the "growing movement among some conservative Protestant pastors to bring back church discipline" it is regretable that the article wasn't written by someone with more understanding of the subject at hand.
For example, Alter describes church discipline as "an ancient practice in which suspected sinners are privately confronted and then publicly castigated and excommunicated if they refuse to repent." Doesn't that sound just like what Jesus prescribes in Matthew 18:15-18? Ms. Alter says that this passage teaches that "unrepentant sinners must be shunned."
Given this gross misunderstanding of the subject it comes as no surprise that the examples that are cited in the story tend to so extreme that most pastors I know who teach and lead their churches to practice discipline would not want to be identified with them. For example, Alter writes about a pastor who dialed 911 on two different occasions to have a 71 year old excommunicated woman arrested for sitting in a church service (the audio of the first 911 call is even embedded in the online text). As reported, this was not a biblically defensible action.
When a person is removed from the membership of a church in keeping with our Lord's teaching in Matthew 18, he or she is not to be "shunned." Neither should they be forbidden to sit under the public preaching of the gospel. They need the gospel and, while we cannot treat them as members any longer, we should welcome them the same way we would a "Gentile or tax collector" (in other words, an unbeliever). We recently had a member who was excommunicated several years ago show up for a worship service. I was glad he was there and told him so. I prayed for him during the worship, that God would capture his heart with the gospel. This is far from the caricature that is portrayed in the WSJ.
The article sites Southern Baptist pastors Jeff Noblitt of First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Alabama and Al Jackson of Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn, Alabama as men who lead their churches to practice discipline. They are not quoted at length and, I suspect, were far too sane in the comments to be judged worthy of extensive coverage.
There is a difference in church discipline and "pastor discipline." I have known of a few cases where overly zealous pastors tried to remove problem members in the name of church discipline. But, because their congregations had not been adequately taught and were not fully on board with the process, it really wasn't "church" discipline at all.
One of the first things a faithful pastor must do when he finds that a church has neglected the practice of corrective church discipline is teach. He must carefully explain passages like the one cited above and 1 Corinthians 5. Then he must teach some more. And then some more. He must lead the membership to see and embrace what the Bible says about the integrity of a church's identity and testimony as the body of Christ. Only after a congregatoin has been adequately taught can they be expected to properly carry out the practice of church discipline.
Where this goal is intentionally pursued with patience and love, the practice often can be reinstituted in a healthy, God-honoring way. This is one of the greatest needs in American evangelical churches in our day. While caricatures must be avoided and abusive practices must be rejected, the engagement of loving oversight and accountability breeds vitality and unity in a church.
Continued from above:
Anyone who reads only the WSJ article and does not investigate what the Bible actually says about this issue will never know this. But those who care enough to find out what God actually says in His Word, and not merely what others think He has said, will discover that this kind of relational devotion to one another is one of the great blessings of the church.
Isn't the first question any judge ask in court; "Who represents the defendant"? Meaning who is the lawyer speaking on behalf of the accused. Well, why didn't the judge and the church allow Mr. Rich to bring a representative to their "court" of discipline they summoned Mr. Rich to? He was not allowed any represenative or witness to go with him. Just face the tribunal, head appropriately bowed.If this case is squashed because of a "church autonomy doctirne", then there truly is no justice to be done here. If courts truly do "just take the churchs word for it", then churchs can do anything they want without regard to right or wrong. Mr. Rich and his wife have ben treated unfairly. The First Baptist Social Club may win, but this will be an empty hollow victory. They will have won because the "cards" were stacked in their favor along with the powers. They will not have won because of fair play or because the church is under the same rules as any other entity. I think if the church wins most right thinking people will realize that "right was not done". It will hurt their reputation in the long run.
I keep watching FBCJax on Sunday, and expect to see Benny Hinn as a Pastor. What a joke it has become. Just a bunch of close minded sheep. Why have sheep if not to fleece?
If the church gets away with this regretable action due to an "old" precedent established in the church favor, then they can do anything they want, to any member, or to any one who challenges them on any point! If so, how long before they start "burning people at the stake" again. That, after all was a church function also? I think we need more laws to protect the people FROM the church. We certainly need more laws reqiring ACCOUNTABILITY on the part of the church. To be thrown out of a church because you ask questions that the church and leadership don't like and don't want to answer, while continuing to ask for and take public funds is the height of arrogance.
If its a joke, then don't watch it. Thats the mistake everybody is making. When you see people name call, etc, you have to know whats going on inside the church. They have name called twice now on the front page of the newspaper, come on you all. Its been proven, so stop WATCHING and GOING and then maybe it will change. And if you can't agree with a place, the answer ISN"T to stay and criticize, and blog, the answer is to go to a place you CAN agree with.
How can you tell someone to stay off campus if you don't know who he is?
Why in the world does ANYONE still got to this church? This joke of a church?
All Mac is interested in is protecting his pile of money. Runs in the family, too.
Regarding a couple of comments made in today's newspaper:
1.
"Our purpose was: 'You are staying off campus until we know who you are, we can see you face to face,' " Soud said. Their goal was then to reconcile with Rich in a "Christian fashion," he said.
Completely wrong. How can you serve a trespass warning to anyone until you DO know who they are? Just a little backwards here. The "Christian Fashion" that was dealt to Tom after this was to be slandered on the front page of his hometown newspaper. And right in line with the teachings of his master, more name calling from the good judge. Keep backpeddling Judge Soud, dig the hole just a bit deeper, we've all got our boots on for this one.
2.
"Church discipline is protected by a constitutional concept called the "church autonomy doctrine," which basically forbids courts from becoming entangled in internal theological practices or disputes", Sasser said. (a Dallas attorney)
Just a question, but didn't Brunson bring "the courts" into this with the JSO & SAO 'investigation', subpeona, and trespass warning? Looks like Mac opened the door on this one.
Run through it Tom!
See Dawg Run.
Sick em!
"Soud said some in the church believed Rich's blog went beyond mere criticism in 2008 when Rich allegedly had someone watching a Brunson sermon in Tennessee and suggested that people disseminate his blog via Sunday school rolls."
Tom, what on earth does Soud mean by this statement. Is he hinting around the the reason for the BBC Subpeona? What does he mean by disseminate blog by SS rolls?
I really do not understand this need for name calling; on both sides.
Both sides have shown us how NOT to resolve differences.
Both sides are case studies on how NOT to treat someone with whom you disagree.
Why don't both sides simply pray for the other? Then perhaps one day the Lord will answer your prayers and you can possibly reconcile this whole mess.
Anon 11:47. You have to remember those in power do not desire to give up power or allow dissent...its just that simple. In other words, its our way or the highway. Hope this helps your understanding.
In reading the TU article (please see my comment about Judge Soud's response there), a total out-of-the-blue thought hit me about Judge Soud. What is a Trustee? And when did FBCJAX start having "Trustees"? Where in the NT are Trustees enpowered to help the church? Aren't deacons, elders, teachers, and pastors enough?
I thought EXCOMMUNICATION was a Catholic practice. I thought FBCJ doesn't like Catholics. So what's with EXCOMMUNICATING the Richs!!!Oh, that's right, the Baptist call it "church discipline". Same song, second verse!
"If the church gets away with this regretable action due to an "old" precedent established in the church favor, then they can do anything they want, to any member, or to any one who challenges them on any point!"
Churches can get by with just about anything short of murdering their staff. So can para church organizations and seminairies. the court is very reluctant to interfere. And because of this, they do some really horrible things to people. It is not just FBCJax, it is many churches. The bigger the church, the worse it gets based on sheer numbers.
They do not have to abide by any labor laws. Most folks are just told there is no unemployment if they are laid off. They are not told they have no basic labor protections at all. And most churches abuse this power. It is part of the system. The system must be served.
In one mega church handbook, employees were told the church did not legally have to pay into SS for them. They did it as a service to their employees.
You go to work in any systemized institutional ministry at your own risk. You join at your own risk. Always remember that. Just because the leaders are well known does not mean they are godly. They serve themselves. It is about their power and influence. They are so isolated they cannot stand to have any true dissent or disagreement, no matter how much they protest the opposite.
And this warning goes for every big name you are listening to on the radio or watching on tv. Most folks would be shocked to see what goes on behind the scenes of most ministries.
My position now is that true godly folks we need to learn from as role models are those who are not famous. Fame and influence does something to people. No one is immune from it. Because they have to work to keep up the stage persona they created.
Matt
"Our purpose was: 'You are staying off campus until we know who you are, we can see you face to face,' " Soud said. Their goal was then to reconcile with Rich in a "Christian fashion," he said."
This is simply spin. There was no way they were going to allow Tom to have his own 'witness' in the meeting. It was designed to be star chamber meeting. Six folks against Tom alone.
They knew exactly what they were doing and they think that most folks will accept their explanation because of who they are and their titles.
Old tactic. Seen it too many times.
Matt
"I do not condone Tom's attempt to say he is innocent in all of this! He had numerous opportunities to meet with the committe but chose to not do that because he wanted "representation" there! That is not appropiate for that forum!"
Not approprate for that forum? After what he saw them do? I would not have showed up without a lawyer after seeing what these supposed 'men of God' did in using the civil magistrate.
See what I mean? The ignorance is appalling. And when you are dealing with false teaching and biblical ignorance on this mass of a scale, you would be a fool to not have a witness in every single communication.
Matt
What is a Trustee? And when did FBCJAX start having "Trustees"? Where in the NT are Trustees enpowered to help the church? Aren't deacons, elders, teachers, and pastors enough?
May 26, 2009 12:33 PM
Very good question. Most mega's have pastor/CEO model with elders acting as the Board. It is not biblical.
My guess is that the term 'elder' would not be popular at FBC Jax so they instituted the use of the term Trustee. It still operates as the business model of a corporation.
But if we think this out logically, then Mac is the CEO, the Trustees, the board and the staff report up the chain to the CEO. But are the members then customers or employees? Are they stockholders?
When you start really looking close at this model for church organizations, you find lots of problems.
Matt
I attended church for many years. We didn't have these problems in my day. Why do people attend church anymore? It obviously doesn't make one a better person. Churches today are institutions full of problems and hypocrisy! It is getting to the point that one must "check up" on a church to see if it is in court, or about to be sued before venturing in to attend it. Otherwise, any money you may give, may go for legal actions and fees that you are no part of, rather than to the work of the Lord. I don't consider paying for a preachers lavish lifestyle as "the work of the Lord".
Matt asked in the business structure of the church, what were the members designated as; customers, employees or stockholders? I would say no to all three. They are just stupid sheep paying for a false system that has fallen into the world.
Tom, I have no tactics or agenda here. If you thought I was trying to throw you under the bus or pit you against your new pastor, I apologize. I was just bringing up what was said by one of your new church staff. However, I was not trying any tactics.
As I have said in the past and will continue to say, let's wait and see what happens. I certainly am not a judge or a juror and neither are any of the other pundits that pontificate on this blog. That includes the so called former preacher known as Matt, also.
Sincerely,
T
Hi Matt,
I always love to hear from you. Your comments carry alot of weight with most of us and are very informative.
I love Jesus and value my salvation above ALL else. But I really, really hate church now (Saved several years ago and used to be ALL church, ALL the time) because of how worldly it has become and how corrupt and scandlous it is now. Basically I just want to go back into the world. I can't, because it would hurt Christ and would not be good for me. But I am just soooooooo DONE with church. In fact, I hate it!
"Tom, how about taking the advice of your new pastor and drop all this!"
Question: Did Tom's new pastor tell him to "drop all this?" When? Where?
For someone named "truth purveyor" it seems you are spreading false assumptions.
"See what I mean? The ignorance is appalling. And when you are dealing with false teaching and biblical ignorance on this mass of a scale, you would be a fool to not have a witness in every single communication.
Matt
May 26, 2009 1:33 PM"
Matt you are so right.In a Church that prides itself on being the bastion of Biblical theology; The depth of Scriptural ignorance among Soud and many of the people at FBCJ is staggering!!!
Hey Dawg - why the infatuation by the church with "cowardice?" Many pro-Brunson kool-aid drinkers here have posted calling you a coward. I don't get it. A coward, by definition, shows fear or intimidation. Why would it be cowardice not to meet personally with the pastor? That assumes you wanted to meet with him, but darn it, you were just too afraid of him, or just too intimidated by him. This makes no sense. I thought you just didn't want to, in other words, chose not to, meet with the man personally. Why this assumption that you wanted to but were afraid? Is the man so powerful? Or so mean? That you SHOULD have been fearful of him or intimidated by him? Is that what Soud and others are implying.
And why didn't Soud confront you personally six against two? (you and your witness at the requested meeting.) Am I to assume he also was a coward, or intimidated by you and your blog?
And, supposing for a second that you ARE a real, bona fide coward. So what? Is that so offensive to Soud and his boys that they had to discipline and trespass you? Is being a coward a sin? Shouldn't they have treated you and your wife even more gently and even more kindly since they perceived you to be fearful and intimidated? ("Hey, brother Tom, don't be intimidated and fearful, we just want to meet with you. Feel free to bring a friend or trusted person with you to the meeting. We don't want you to be afraid.") If they really believe you to be a coward, why call you one in the newspaper and on your blog. Many men are cowards. Some are brave and courageous. So what? I don't get it. Yet, it seemed so important to Soud to categorize you as a coward in the T-U article.
Does he think he is so brave and courageous? Why he didn't even allow a meeting unless you came alone. He didn't even mention your name in the deacon resolution. He never even called you to talk about these issues. Perhaps he was fearful? If so, does HE fit the definition of coward?
Was Mac fearful that you were a threat to him. Maybe Mac is the real coward and ran to the JSO and to his staff to protect him? He was afraid he would be harmed? That makes more sense to me that Mac was the coward (fearful one) that has a bodyguard and lives in a gated community and needs Hinson to investigate any criticism.
Hmmm. Makes you wonder why the term coward gets thrown around so much by these guys doesn't it?
And would a coward, once having been identified, continue to blog? It makes no sense. They discovered your identity months before trespassing you. So you weren't blogging anonymously to them. They knew who you were and trespassed you and you continud to blog. How is that cowardly. And what about your lawsuit against Hinson, the SAO, Siegel and the JSO? Is that also cowardly?
Yet Soud says "Being the coward he is..." Pretty definitive. Perhaps the learned judge is going senile and is not in control of all his faculties? I can't help but wonder. So sad.
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.
Romans 12:19
"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12
Dog do you not believe scripture?
A Word from the Lord: Mac and A.C., enough is enough! You are harming my beloved sheep I put under your care to shepherd. Like Sheri Klouda in Dallas, Tom and Yvette need a pastor/shepherd but you never even spoke with them before publicly criticizing them. You even threw them out of my church. This is not the example I set for you and this does not show my love for my sheep. This must stop, now. Like Moses, I am relieving you both of your leadership positions immediately since you have not served me as I called you to do. JESUS
(Like people say "let God deal with Mac and A.C.". Well he already has, now it is up to the congregation to do what God says. Remove these two from leadership, now.)
Sorry Anon 3:22 I am not going to bite, nor am I "spreading false assumptions". An assumption is hypothetical, I made a statement and I did not assume anything.
When, where, and the source of the facts are irrelevant since Tom says that he will continue to press forth his opinions.
Sincerely,
T
"Being the short, narcissistic, respect starved, angry old man he is, I believe A.C. Coward, to have a Napoleonic complex." Anyone want to quote that opinion of mine in the newspaper?
Urban Dictionary:
napoleon complex: A peronality complex that consists of power trips and false machismo to make up for short height and feelings of inferiority.
Narcissist: Excessive love or admiration of oneself. A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem. A narcissist is always right and has the urge to make you feel less than him/her.
If the shoe fits, A.C. Coward...
Truth Purveyor said...
"I was just bringing up what was said by one of your new church staff."
Dear Truth,
Sounds like a threat to me. And believe me I've heard quite a few with the past at FBC that I've had. Hey, here's a thought, maybe you are a former member too!?
Why continue to bring up his new found fellowship of believers that love and support him? Maybe you don't know all that you appear to know? Hope you find a way to get over it. Have love for a brother that is finally welcomed into the family. The way Christ would have wanted it to start with... at
FBCJ.
Truth Purveyor,
He won't drop it, even though his new pastor says he should. Such is the problem with people who refuse to be under biblical authority.
TO: May 26, 2009 4:55 PM
I really enjoyed your post. Very refreshing take on the situation and very true. You made many points alot of us hadn't considered.
The thing that gets me is people who say "wrong on both sides". But the above post shows another point of wrong done by only one side: Team Brunson.
WD has done nothing wrong.
"Dog do you not believe scripture?"
He will say otherwise, but his actions prove that he does not.
Dear Former FBC insider as you allege. Where do you get "threat" from? I have not made any threats.
You on the other hand claiming that because you used to be married to a deacon and were a group leader and a Sunday school teacher and a Sunday school director hardly make you some type of insider.
I am not in your corner as a former member, insider or anything else as you assume. I assure that I know way more than you and most others pontificating on this blog. I also know all of the players in this drama well or very well.
As far as love for I brother, I definitely have that, and I sincerely wish him and his family the best. It would be hard for me to assume that from any comments that you have made to me or others on this blog.
Frankly and sadly, all of this is in the hands of attorneys and the wheels of justice will have to turn and an outcome proclaimed by a court of law. At the end of the day, there will be no winners and losers in this drama. In the end everyone will lose.
Sincerely,
T
Anon 5:07 & 5:45, I must take up Tom's position in light of your comments. He is not in violation of scripture bringing suit against JSO and the SA. The suit is directly against these two entities. If in the course of discovery, those outside of the JSO and the SA are deposed that too is not a violation of scripture.
However, if at some point he chooses to directly sue FBC, Brunson, Soud, or anyone else then that is when I cannot defend his right to due process.
Sincerely,
T
He won't drop it, even though his new pastor says he should. Such is the problem with people who refuse to be under biblical authority.
May 26, 2009 5:44 PM
Are you saying a man with a title of pastor is the biblical authority?
So, it's ok for you to call Dr. Brunson a myriad of names - in a public forum - but it's not ok for the church to do the same (all the while defending itself against you)? Once again, double standards. I'm sorry for all that your wife has gone through - especially having to reconcile dealing with her faith, giving up her church, and essentially leading your kids (i.e., she sat in the car while your kids went to church). And let's don't even start with how your kids have been damaged. You brought all this on yourself. Of course, you are welcome to free speech but when you started the blog and being so incredibly nasty, you brought the damage upon yourself. Praying for your repentance. Also, still 'wild' that you won't post comments until your approve. Controlling all over the place.
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.
Romans 12:19
"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.
12 "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12
Dog do you not believe scripture?
May 26, 2009 4:57 PM
BTW: Matt 5 was written about UNBELIEVERS. Are you saying it is OK for believers to persecute each other?
Don't you believe in scripture:
1 Corin 5
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.
(Brunson should have been expelled for his greed. And for violating 1 Tim requirments for elder)
Matt 20
24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Eph 5
11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Acts 20
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood. 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
2 Peter
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
What you all do not realize is that Brunson has already elevated himself above Christ denying His Sovereignty by his own actions.
And there are many more....
Anon - spare me the sorrow for my wife and kids. I feel sorry for you and your wife, if you are still down there at the church supporting Brunson and the rest, having to reconcile YOUR faith as you watch your church leaders act as they do. And if you have kids, and have them under Mac Brunson's preaching, I feel sorry for THEM.
"However, if at some point he chooses to directly sue FBC, Brunson, Soud, or anyone else then that is when I cannot defend his right to due process."
So, they can do whatever they want and their evil deeds are protected by scripture? Sort of like some claimed Gilyard was protected.
Anon - spare me the sorrow for my wife and kids. I feel sorry for you and your wife, if you are still down there at the church supporting Brunson and the rest, having to reconcile YOUR faith as you watch your church leaders act as they do. And if you have kids, and have them under Mac Brunson's preaching, I feel sorry for THEM.
May 26, 2009 6:31 PM
The deprogramming from the mega teaching I have had to do with my children has been enormous. There is no way around it. Admit I was deceived and read them scripture in CONTEXT every day and discuss it. Over the past few years, we have read through all scripture 3x in addition to other study.
And yes, I am teaching them to be Bereans and check every single thing they are taught by me or anyone else. I never want them to believe someone just because they have a title. Scripture says we have the best Teacher: The Holy Spirit. We must pray and ask Him to teach us.
Matt
as someone who really dont now or has ever been on the inside of FBCJax. I know one thing. After reading how they treat the members, I would be better off being a Mormon. If you think what they are Preaching is in tune with the Bible. Than I have some oceanfront property in Utah to sell you.
"And let's don't even start with how your kids have been damaged. "
Classic cult mentality. FBCJ is demonstrating more and more evidence of a cult the more we hear of their leaders. Smyrl, King, Brunson, now Soud.
Someone leaves, or they are excommunicated from the cult for bad behavior - and they are considered "damaged". Poor people, they will never be the same, since they won't be here under the wonderful ministry of our church. Their kids are damaged. The poor wife. How will they reconcile their faith not being here? This MUST be believed about the former members who have been shunned. The MUST be damaged, they MUST be angry and hurt and unable to cope. They can't stand the thought that someone left and found it better outside the cult than inside it.
Well, as many former members can attest, there is life, wonderful church life after FBCJ. There are real, humble preachers who love their flocks and preach the word and don't perform like an actor on a stage.
Sometimes its hard to see the spiritually abusive system one is in until you are outside of it looking in. Then you thank God for removing you from that system. As we see more and more of what is going on inside FBCJ, we can only be so thankful that we are on the outside.
What seems to have been a simple matter between a member of the church and his pastor(questions by the former) has now been opened up and revealed to the entire world to witness. Sort of like Paul telling Peter a thing or two in person. Sometimes it is better to answer and allay the question of trust troubling a member or members. Questions UNANSWERED become stumbling blocks to the cause of Christ. There are a lot less people involved in the "answer" scenario than the thousands and millions now that are waiting to see how the wind blows from the courthouse. Will there be justice and will right be done. Only time will tell. I just hope the result will not be a politically correct verdict, but done with true wisdom after reviewing all the facts. The winner here will be the truth and the freedom to question even the mighty and the powerful. The loser will be an unsatisfactory support of the established power structure, and putting down of the David in this David vs Goliath contest.
Truth Purveyor once again posts anonymously (WD posted anonymously and was criticized as being a coward. Some said his posts had no credibility) and TP claims to be quoting a staff member at Tom's new church. Which staff member, when or where is not important he says.
TP - I don't believe you. Ever heard of hearsay being unreliable? Especially from an anon quoting an anon.
And anyway, whatever the opinion or "wish" of Tom's new pastor, he did not, and cannot "tell Tom to do anything." He can only give his opinion and counsel. In case you missed it, preachers do NOT "tell us" what to do. That kind of mentality is why Gilyard, Brunson and Smyrl thrive. Some actually believe the preacher tells us what to do, what to read, what to believe. Scary, cultish stuff.
And PT, one of the staff at Tom's new church told me Tom was awesome and they support him. So what! HAH!
One man calling another man a coward in the newspaper is not very nice. I called a man a coward once and he got really offended and upset by that. Then I got saved, and apologized to that man. He forgave me, but I still felt bad about it. I said it only to hurt his feelings and to make me feel better about myself and to try and provoke him. I wonder if Judge Soud regrets calling Mr. Rich names. I think the president of the FBC Jax, Inc., trustee and deacon harms our church more by calling Tom names then Tom and his once anonymous blogs questioning the leadership. The whole city sees our leadership as being as bad as the blogger they so hate and attack. I think the public and membership expect more from Judge Soud than they do of one former member who is unhappy about things. Shouldn't some man or woman who is spiritual down there tell Mac and A.C. to stop calling Tom names, at least out in public? It really makes our church look bad.
A.C. Soud, a retired judge, President of FBC Jax, Inc., engaged in calling some little insignificant blogger a COWARD in the local press? Says he trespassed he and his wife because he was a threat to have someone listen to a sermon? How unbecoming of someone in that position.
Mac and Soud are showing themselves to be very small men, very full of themselves. They know in their hearts they are the cowards and in their feeble attempts to cover their cowardice they call Rich a coward. Very simple.
And let me tell you something: part of their problem may very well be they have spent most of their professional lives being called "God's man" and "Your honor", and have not really operated in a corporate environment where men are accountable to an ndependent governing board for their words and actions and RESULTS. No one questions Soud's final word. He is judge. Brunson - his trustees don't question him, they are his supporters.
If Brunson or Soud had to operate in a corporate culture of accountability, and if their decisions in managing this business, er, I mean church, came under the scrutiny of a truly independent board of trustees that was responsible for the success of the organization, the Chairman would fly into town and tell Brunson and Soud:
"What the HELL are you guys doing?? We have a $15 million a year enterprise here. People DONATE millions of dollars per year, and you idiots are busy using the police to find the identity of one PUNY, insignificant writer of a website who won't even give his NAME? If he slandered you or our organization, you could have easily filed a lawsuit to find his identity so you could demand of him to take down the offending remarks, and then sue his sorry butt for slander if he didn't. Spending our staff's time on clandestine investigations, and risking our 50 year old brand name because you couldn't take some criticism is INEXCUSABLE. And now to cover your tracks you're giving interviews to the local newspaper, to call this guy names on the record - possibly slandering him further putting our organization at financial risk - WHY??? Do you have any earthly idea how this makes you and our organization look? Do you even CARE? Why didn't you just ignore this guy? Don't you know you keep your friends close and your enemies closer?
LET ME TELL YOU BOTH SOMETHING RIGHT NOW: You both are fired for your continued mismanagement of this problem, and your obvious incompetance. You have squandered your ability to lead, and we need new leadership to have a chance to right this ship before its too late. And the staff and trustees who were involved in this poop-storm are out the door with you. And we're bringing in Mr. and Mrs. Rich so that your last official duty will be to apologize for failing in your duties as a pastor to pastor them, and for slandering them, and for the harsh treatment especially of Mrs. Rich. We will bring in new leadership to this organization to get it moving in the right direction. Have your office suite cleaned out by 5:00 pm. And tell this Maurilio guy his services are definitely no longer needed."
That is what WOULD happen in a system of accountability.
But these guys operate under NO authority other than their own, and they believe "God's authority". And no one at the church holds them accountable, after all, they are "God's men".
Pastor Wade's blog > "I'm Just a Kindergarden Christian Who Doesn't Know Any Better But to Do What God Says".
As I was driving Ronnie back to his house I asked him how he felt. He looked at me quietly for a moment and then said, "I feel great. You know, as I listened to all the guys discuss the Bible this morning, most everything went right over my head. Those guys have been Christians for so long and know so much. What I know is what happened tonight. This is real. I'm just a kindergarden Christian who doesn't know any better than to do what God says, and God told me through your message last Sunday that I was to do this."
It could be our Masters' Degree pastors and Ph.D theologians in the Southern Baptist Convention could learn a great deal from Ronnie Que, a kindergarden Christian. What would happen if Southwestern had done something similar for Sheri Klouda? What if FBC Jacksonville were to do something similar for Tom Rich? What if the Missouri Baptists were to do something similar to Ronnie Que?
It could be what hinders us from loving others is our own haughtiness and pride about what we know in terms of our doctrine, and a corresponding lack of listening to God speak to us through the simplicity of His commands.
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God" (I John 4:7).
Anon 11:38 I never said that he was never supported. STOP TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE WHEN NO TROUBLE EXISTS.
As far as hearsay goes, you are correct. Not about what was said, but that hearsay is not admissible.
Therefore, END OF DISCUSSION ON THIS ISSUE.
Sincerely,
T
I think the Lord is coming very soon. Read your Bible and watch the news. It looks very close. I think the leadership at First Baptist better take off their "blinders" and look at their arrogance and repent of it before they must explain it to the Lord. It is beyond me how people can be so deceived as to think they can treat others (not just the Rich"s) the way they have and think "themselves" right. Ask your selves, gentlemen, "Is it possible you have listened to the wrong voices, and maybe YOU are wrong"?
TP, the new blog administrator, has spoken! He decides when discussions are over now, apparently.
:)
WD: TP has a certain element of BS to his/her comments.
WD: You have and are doing the right thing. You are the Watchman on the Wall. Our hats are off to you. Keep the faith.You'll win out in the END!!!
Below is an Anon post made today by a Catholic here in Jacksonville. He/she posted under my Jim Smyrl "Lost Articles" post from last year, so I am putting it here for others to read the Anon's insightful remarks. If you want to read Smyrl's "Catholic Cult" articles referred to by the Anon, click on the "Smyrl's Catholic Cult Articles" link in the right hand column. You won't find them on the FBC Jax blogsite, as they were taken down shortly after they posted.
Thank you, Catholic Anon for sharing your views which I think are very helpful and informative. Although no longer a member of FBC Jax myself, I can assure you that the vast majority of members at FBC Jax do not even come close to sharing Smyrl's view that the Catholic church is a "cult". Many FBC Jax members, and Southern Baptists in general find Smyrl's remarks offensive as you do. Smyrl is a young preacher, who in my opinion is trying to be provocative and cutting edge, who over the years I'm sure will look back and regret his careless words about our Catholic friends.
Here is the Anon's post:
------------------------
I find the Catholic Cult articles offensive and uninformed. The church has a government much like the United States. It needs a leader, the Pope. Catholics do not consider the Pope a higher authority than Christ. He is the authority of our church as is Mac for FBC. Mary is reveared because she said yes. What if she had said no when asked to be the mother of our Lord?
We do not worship Mary or statues or Saints. We ask for intervention based on the scripture "he who believith in him shall not parish but have everlasting life" Seeking their prayers is like asking a heavenly congragation to pray for us, much as you might ask a friend to pray for you. Tradition is basically addressed as experience. We are a 2000 year old religion and we have experience good and bad.
We do not believe we have to or are forced to go to confession. When I converted I was told direct confession to my Lord and Savior is appropriate. The priest is a vehicle to releive guilt much like a misnister is when he councils someone from his congregation. The priesthood is founded on the breath that Jesus breathed into his diciples after he arose from the grave. He stated "who you forgive will be forgiven". This tradition was passed on through Peter to the priesthood. It is part of becoming a priest that a more senior priest, bishiop ect will breathe on the new priest.
Catholics do not go around trashing the baptist religion it would be sinful. We are not a perfect religion but we believe in the one Lord Jesus Christ and we as everyday Catholics are not involved in the Church government.
We are baptised and saved and if we feel our christening as a baby isn't enough we can ask to be Baptised again.
My priest Father Dan Cody speaks only good things of the Protestant religion. He is a true teacher with a Christian heart. I urge the people who read the three blogs calling our religion a cult to meet us at St. Josephs to see how we truly live and believe.
Tom, I guess I should have clarified that was the end of any discussion from me on that particular subject. I was not trying to intimate anything other than that.
Anon 11:47 you are way off base. The name says it all: Truth Purveyor. That is not what I or anyone else wants to be the truth, perceives to be the truth or hopes the truth is. Truth is truth; period as substantiated by the facts adjudicated in a court of law. Truth is not substantiated by hearsay, innuendo, posts on this or any other blogs, pontification from Matt, Wade, Thy Peace, or anyone else, including me.
I have said and will continue to say that for a lot of things I stand in support of Tom. And in a lot of things we have different points of view. That is his, mine and all the rest of folks that make posts here; the right to agree or disagree.
What I do have a major issue with folks on both sides of the issues at hand is all of this ugly name calling and even a few folks use of swear words as I saw on an earlier post.
Everyone has a right to their opinion and their view of what they perceive is truth. Everyone even has a right to make snide and ugly comments against those whom they disagree with what they posted. I am saying lets be civilized and stop attacking each other personally as far as folks motives, integrity, etc. This accomplishes nothing.
TP - how do we even know you are a member of FBC Jax? You say you know most of the people involved - who are you? Why can't you at least let you know who you are? My name is Tom Rich. What is your name, Truth Purveyor? Are you embarrassed about your support for FBC Jax? Afraid it might hurt your business if people actually knew you defended FBC Jax and Brunson?
Can you at least tell us something about you that we know you are a member that knows as much as you claim?
I noticed that the article in the Times Union was only interested in discussing the Church's side of the issue. The media is only discussing the Church Discipline issue. The media is NOT discussing the real issues of the enormous Pastor's Salary, The Pastor's Wife being on the payroll and receiving a hefty salary, the $300,000 land gift accepted by the pastor, dramatically changing the bylaws in a surreptitious manner, borrowing $500,000 for the church school without say by anybody but the big P. ignoring Church Member concerns to the point they have to start a blog to get heard etc.....
Sound's like the Big P wrote the article, or they just ran it by him for his input before they published it.
Catholic Anon: why not contact your priest and ask him to come to this blog and respond to Smyrl's charges of Catholics being a cult? That would be very good - to hear a priest refute the charges by Smyrl that the church is a cult, and priests are cult leaders.
May 27, 2009 12:38 AM - good post about what a real board of directors would say to these clowns. Now, imagine if you were the insurer for this bunch. If I were their insurer, I would tell them to "shut it down."
If anyone thinks that what Catholics believe vs what protestants believe is the same,need only listen to Jacksonville A.M.radio station 1460 and Catholic apologist. There is a world of difference between what protestants believe and what Catholics believe; "A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE"! Dr.John MacAuthur Jr. event stated that "Catholicism is not another denomination;But is another relgion"! Read some of Author and Apologists Dave Hunt and T.A.McMahon materials(The bereancall.org).McMahon himself was a former Catholic. And just as the Bereans were call "noble" by Luke in the Book of Acts. It is the responsiblity of every believer to verify by prayer and "CAREFUL" study of the Scriptures to be sure whether what Rod,,Smyrl,MacAuthur,W.D.,Dave Hunt,Mac the Pope or anyone else is telling them!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pastor Rod,
As a devotee and follower of Rich your break with him is a fault line.
Rich, your response to the catholic anon regarding the thoughts of the majority of FBC is unbelievable.
Is your source factual or anecdotal?
You didn't contact me.
May 27, 2009 4:00 PM - who knows what the "majority" of FBCJ believes anymore about any issue. No way to tell since for the past three years, all we get are history lessons, nice stories by a talented storyteller, and scripture that is hunt and peck and twisted and taken out of context to deal with divisiness and anonymous complainers.
It wouldn't surprise me if Rich is wrong on this and that most FBCJ members do believe Catholics are cult members and priests are cult leaders. Some may even still believe that slavery was okay. (Still not much integration down there still with the good ole boys.) Others probably think the women should submit to that macho man in their home and keep silent as the inferior gender. I would hate to find out what that bunch of cultish, kool-aid drinkers REALLY believe. I guess Smyrl is trying to tell them what to believe in the most unloving way possible since mac is too busy diagnosing one member who raised concerns about mac's actions.
And that bunch is blowing through a million bucks a month supporting themselves while real ministry needs in our city and around the world are going unmet. Shame on those good ole boys.
"WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pastor Rod,
As a devotee and follower of Rich your break with him is a fault line"
Anon 4:00pm I still support and believe that the issues that Tom has brought to light are valid. There is a tremendous amount of corruption both monetary and otherwise in our Churches today. But when it comes to Scriptural Truth and veracity I stand with Christ alone.
I say that your wife should have been included in the trespass warrant. At that time there was no way to know how deep the issue ran within your family.
I say that your wife should have been included in the trespass warrant. At that time there was no way to know how deep the issue ran within your family.
May 27, 2009 5:37 PM
There is an evil at FBCJax that cannot be fathomed.
Lawyers, Voyeurs and Warriors.
Man, what a freak show. Soud just needs an ephod and a big golden staff. And maybe one of those funny hats with three sides that looks like an upside down pyramid.
let's stop pastor darrell gilyard together > Share Your Feelings.
I am curious as to what everyone is feeling at this point. I hear so many different things in talking with people around me and I would like to know what you all think.
I know many are filled with mixed emotion, some are just angry, some are still so hurt, some are still disbelieving, some are rallying around him still, others are lost in grief....
I say that your wife should have been included in the trespass warrant. At that time there was no way to know how deep the issue ran within your family.
May 27, 2009 5:37 PM
Yep. Shoot first and ask questions later. Just like Jesus would have handled it. What a great loving church down there. Modeling Jesus to its members and to the world. Formal trespass warnings against the bride of the man attempting to blog anonymously. Jesus will surely tell them all "well done."
The further you dig, the more dirt you find! Watch Dog said "I am going to bring this Blog to a close" LIAR! He tries to convince us that Mac broke some laws...DECEIVER! WD tries to get sympathy when he brings up situations with his wife...WHINER! He won't print this because he knows I got his number. Be careful who you throw dirt on, you'll probably get dirty yourself.
The further you dig, the more dirt you find! Watch Dog said "I am going to bring this Blog to a close" LIAR! He tries to convince us that Mac broke some laws...DECEIVER! WD tries to get sympathy when he brings up situations with his wife...WHINER! He won't print this because he knows I got his number. Be careful who you throw dirt on, you'll probably get dirty yourself.
May 27, 2009 9:42 PM
Thank you for posting these comments, Tom. We are seeing the depths of evil at FBC Jax.
I have one question.... how many people have come to Christ from this blog? I think you need to re-focus your efforts.
Chris
I have one question.... how many people have come to Christ from this blog? I think you need to re-focus your efforts.
Chris
May 27, 2009 11:51 PM
How do you measure such things, Chris? By the numbers walking the aisle? Baptisms?
Or just empty platitudes? Fact is, FBC JAX has NO ministry. It is just a club for those who call themselves Christians. So, acting all righteous won't work for you as you prop up just another wolf in sheep's clothing. YOur leaders do not even act like followers of Christ...how can there be a ministry?
What does your new church ad say:
Join us but don't dare disagree with us?
Or how about:
Just do what we say (hand over your money) and you will love it here.
The Body of Christ is made up of Spirit and people. It has nothing to do with big fancy buildings, church marketing experts and security people.
(BTW: Why was Mac so worried about his sccurity? Doesn't he put his trust in God?)
Please show me one perfect church. I can assure you that this blog will lead no one to Christ. I am not perfect and do not claim to be. I do not like alot of things at FBC but they ARE leading people to Christ. I ask again... show me a perfect church. Isle walking means nothing...Baptisms only show what you have done to the public. But a changed life is what it is all about. I can walk into FBC and find many people that can truthfully tell you they they met Jesus at FBC Jax. I want to meet the person that can truthfully say they met Christ on this Blog. Funny thing... I came from a chuch that went through a big transition to be a more revelant church to todays culture... and the blogs rolled out with almost the EXACT accusations as this one. Who needs the lost to tear down the church when "Christ followers" will do it themselves. So I ask again, how many people have been led to Christ by all of the time, research and effort put into the blog? Chris
Hey Chris - are you the Chris M., the deacon that corresponded with me in January and asked the same questions about how many people were led to Christ on my blog? Can you tell us your last name?
Are you also Truth Purveyor, since TP has not posted today and now "Chris" appears?
How many people have been led to Christ on this blog: ZERO.
The purpose of my blog is not to lead anyone to Christ.
I am not a deacon and I am not TP. I only look at this blog every few months... I just can't believe the extent that this has and is going. Zero people. That is alot of effort as a Christian to do nothing. Before you jump on me...I too am guilty of spinning my wheels when it comes to leading people to Christ at times, but I would not go this far to tear down brothers and sisters in Christ nor would I provide a platform for others to do so either. And yes, I posted the same in Jan.
"The purpose of my blog is not to lead anyone to Christ."
and I'll say it again in a non-hateful way... I think you should re-focus your efforts!
Chris
Hey Chris
How many people were lead to Christ by the Event for Israel held at FBC JAX?
How many people were lead to Christ by Brunson calling Tom a sociopath and mentally unstable in the TU?
How many people were lead to Christ by Soud calling Tom a coward in the TU?
How many people were lead to Christ by the subpeona to Google?
How many people were lead to Christ by the subpeona to Comcast?
How many people were lead to Christ by Brunson refusing to meet with Tiffany Croft and Tom Rich?
How many people are being led to Christ by the blog pointing out that Brunson instructs pastors in a published book to act a certain way and he does the opposite of that? How many?
You are trying a diversionary tactic to draw conversation away from the topic of discussion. That is often the avenue taken when one doesn't have a leg to stand on.
If the right to privacy can guarantee a woman the freedom to get an abortion then it certainly can allow anonymous blogging. If the "powers" win the lawsuit, every American will lose.
I would not think of the current lawsuit in terms of winning and loosing. It is more important to think in terms of discovery, revealing information and thoughts leading to the church induced state action, setting precedents and as a building block for the legal framework of this country. Just a thought.
How many people have been lead to Christ with this blog?
Im not going to say it has got me saved. However that being said. It has started a dialoge between a good Christian friend and I. Why I might never become a Babtist. I feel its brought me closer in my walk with the Lord. Some times we may forget that the Good Lord works in ways we dont think of.
"You are trying a diversionary tactic to draw conversation away from the topic of discussion. That is often the avenue taken when one doesn't have a leg to stand on."
I am not trying a "diversionary tactic". I am trying a "Let it go" tactic.
You can look at action after action from FBC but you cannot deny that the members and pastor of FBC Jax have led people to Christ and this blog has not even come close to that. I will say again, I have many issues with FBC, but I also ask again, show me a perfect church.
I have nor the time or patience to read all blog post and comments on this blog. I know there are probably many people on here that have tried to show you the benefit of moving on. You have given many of the lost a platform to further their despise for the Church instead of showing love. Throw that comment back on the staff of FBC if you must but you must look at yourself first. Looking at myself, I am guilty of all charges.
Goodbye for now, I may revisit in a month or so to see if your energies are re-focused and will only ask the same question I started last night with. Peace brother. Chris
L-Lawsuits equal "losers"
A-Angry over my little feelings..
W-Watchdog has fleas
S-Sue over nothing but bitterness
U-U are so backsliden Watchdog
I-I laugh at your pathetic lies
T-Temper tantrums are ugly!
That alliteration will preach!
"You can look at action after action from FBC but you cannot deny that the members and pastor of FBC Jax have led people to Christ and this blog has not even come close to that. I will say again, I have many issues with FBC, but I also ask again, show me a perfect church."
Chris my friend you are very naive. It is the Word of God that lead people to salvation not the character of man. But with that said the Bible gives us countless Scriptures on what salvation is and how to be saved; But it also gives countless Scriptures on deceitful men entering the ministry for personal gain. Men not concerned with the cause of Christ but the bottom line; How much money,power and popularity they can attain. This my friend is the point you are missing.Though you say that this blog has not lead anyone to Christ; You don't know that! But one thing it has done; It has open the eyes of many people to the abuses and the corruptions that are happening in many of out Churches! Christ did specifically at the beginning of His Ministry and at the end of it;Warn that false Christ,false prophets(preachers) and false brethren would infiltrate the Church and be highly successful in leading people astray! And after following W.D's blog for the last year that prophecy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes! John MacAuthur Jr.once said "He has never seen a time in his life,when people have been so religiously gullible"! I agree!
Hmmm. A great and very relevant question, Chris. If that is the only question worth focusing on, I wonder how many people were led to Christ by Bob Gray? Or Darrel Gilyard? Or at the "Sermon on the Mound" night we paid thousands of dollars to promote and host Mac at the baseball ground when he didn't even preach, the choir sang only the national anthem, and the kids did the Abbott and Costello "Who's on First" comedy routine. Or what about the Holy Land trips that take days of many people's time and thousands of their dollars? Time and money that should have been invested in ministry. How many in our city are getting saved by those highly promoted, annual Holy Land trips? Yes, Chris, you are on to something. We need our leaders to be asking this same question about everything they are doing and spending on. Yet you don't ask them, you ask Tom instead. Why? Is he misusing church time and funds on blogging instead of ministry and evangelism?
And how many have been saved by giving Mac a $307K land gift? Or how many saved by nepotism and putting Deb and Trey on staff? And how many saved during Hinson's "investigation" of the blogger? Wow. Chris, why didn't we think to ask this question that you have asked of Tom and his blogging? Please, someone ask the church leadership these questions, instead of asking this question of some layman blogger.
I hope you return and answer these questions, Chris. But most likely you won't since you will be so busy leading people to Christ.
Thanks for asking Chris. It gives us all the chance to really think about the nonsense some kool-aid drinkers actually, truly, sincerely believe. Lord help us and protect us from ourselves and our "leaders!"
"I am trying a "Let it go" tactic."
Sure, yeah, let's "let it go." Did Mac ever "let it go"???? Noooo, he pressed it all the way to the police and media.
Sure, Mac would love us to "let it go". ANYTHING that would continue to hide his real self AND protect his outrageous standard of living.
Bro.Pastor Rod H. please don't show your ignorance by saying some of the things you say. How would you and your family pay their bills if all of the sudden your congregation stopped giving? What would you do if someone blogged annonomously that you are guilt of horrible things, when in fact, you are not?
What would you do, if you truely are a pastor of a church in this city? More than likely you are not in the ministry or any type of legitimate pastor. A legitimate minister of the gospel would not be bloviating like you do.
"What would you do, if you truely are a pastor of a church in this city? More than likely you are not in the ministry or any type of legitimate pastor. A legitimate minister of the gospel would not be bloviating like you do.
May 28, 2009 11:27 AM
Your response is exactly what I meant by gullible people! Well since I'm not who I say I am; Maybe you can answer this question! Why are there countless warnings in the Word of God on religious deceptions as we near the return of Christ? As a matter of fact much of the Bible was written to confront spiritual errors! The Bible by inspiration of the Holy Spirit warns over and over that in the last days,"That men would depart from the Faith,giving heed to seducing spirits"[1Tim.3:1].John writes that we are to "test the spirits whether they are of God"[1John 4:1].Paul stated that "We should test everything and hold on to that which is good"[1Thess.5:21].But you say I'm bloviating! Why all these Biblical warnings? You asked me what would I do if someone was supposedly slandering me? I would not call them an "obessive compulsive or a sociopath" to a news reporter! According to Peter,Jeus was reviled,yet He did not revile in response[1Peter 2:23]! Does that answer your questions? And if I know that passage of Scripture and I have no formal theological training; How come the highly trained Dr.Brunson and A.C.Soud don't know it?
Bro.Pastor Rod H. please don't show your ignorance by saying some of the things you say. How would you and your family pay their bills if all of the sudden your congregation stopped giving? What would you do if someone blogged annonomously that you are guilt of horrible things, when in fact, you are not?
What would you do, if you truely are a pastor of a church in this city? More than likely you are not in the ministry or any type of legitimate pastor. A legitimate minister of the gospel would not be bloviating like you do.
Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know Brother Rod, and how about this. He works on a JOB. And that's how God chooses to provide for him and his family. But of course, Mackey wouldn't know anything about that, would he? How about the Apostle Paul? He too worked with his hands. You know not what you speak about. And it would behoove you to be careful about saying things you know nothing about. But, I understand, it's not Bro. Rod that you're angry with, it's the Word of God that you’re angry with. Bro. Rod is only repeating what the Lord has already said in His Word. And you mean to tell me that you don't agree with what God says?
So, to answer your question for the Brother; I think that if someone blogged anonymously about him that he would first examine himself to see if it's true, and if it’s not true, his character would speak for itself. How about that? Does that answer your question??
Now, tuck your tail between your legs and go on now.
Wow, another classic question of Rod, from a Mac supporter that is not posed to Mac, but instead to some other pastor in town. Why won't someone post questions to Mac? Anyway, the anon asks Rod "How would you and your family pay your bills if the people stopped giving?" Mac would just "trust God" right? No problem, the Lord provides, he doesn't need our giving, right? And Mac has been given at least one large gift that should pay him a nice salary for a few years, if liquidated, without need of any salary from the givers. And Mac's wife has a nice salary and benefits so she could take care of him. (nepotism has its advantages.)
But if Mac shares your concern about how his bills will get paid without people giving, then he should stand up and tell them to "give a million dollars, in two weeks" or they will go into debt; or better yet, tell them they need to praise Jesus they didn't get a raise or they would be worse in debt. Or better yet, he could always play audio tapes of Homer Lindsay telling them to give the Old Testament tithe like the Israelites gave to the priests (we need food in the storehouse after all); or maybe he could increase his own tithe by 1%, so he is now giving a whopping 11% of his income; or he could raise tuition at the new school; or make his book required reading at the seminaries; or go preach at Bellevue for $10,000; or sell a plug from the pulpit at the pastor's conference, or rent high priced booths at the pastor's conference; or take a percentage of the cost of every sheep that pays to go to the Holy Land with him; or start a satellite in the most affluent county around and get them to give large gifts and a percentage of their income.
All just some ideas. I am sure Maurilio has many more. Thanks for asking.
Dog - one reason the church continues to blast Lifeway, and the Catholics is because they are no longer into reaching the lost. Their goal now is to "steal sheep" and increase their brand and market share. They are targeting Christians by starting a school that will attract families who are already committed Christians, advertising passion plays and christmas and easter programs to sheep steal, starting a satellite across from the street from an existing church in St. Johns county, and now hoping to "recruit" good Catholics into the fold.
They know the Christian demographic is gullible and lucrative. Their use of a marketing consultant proves it. If they wanted to really reach the lost they would be out feeding the hungry, taking care of orphans, clothing the needy, and providing a glass of water in Christ's name. They leave that real ministry to the Catholics, while they spend millions on self promotion on TV, radio and internet. It is so clear to see them for what they really are. Not to mention, the Bible says they will be known by their love. I can assure you this city knows FBC Jax alright, and it is NOT known for its love. Greed and arrogance and abuse and judgmental attitudes, maybe. And now they are known for the pastor calling a member a sociopath, expensive gifts to the preacher, a pastor calling the Catholics a cult, trespass warnings, and using the JSO and SAO for their own purposes to confront criticism. But love? NEVER!
Hey! Where is Turth Purveyor????
"You can look at action after action from FBC but you cannot deny that the members and pastor of FBC Jax have led people to Christ and this blog has not even come close to that. I will say again, I have many issues with FBC, but I also ask again, show me a perfect church. "
Chris, I hate to say this but you have the typical view of most mega church folks. The 'perfect church' mantra is one I heard for years to excuse away so much deep seated sin by leaders and staff. It is so grievous.
No one expects perfection. Just transparancy, honesty, integrity and the heart of a servant. Not a tyrant who expects to be served and well paid.
Tom is not measuring how many of his readers have been saved by reading his blog. You should stop measuring, too. All of our churches should. We must examine OURSELVES to see if WE are in the faith.
We should study the Word and pray for hearts to be regenerated. Counting Baptisms and ailse walkers brought the SBC to where it is today. Dead. The Holy Spirit left long ago. You are deluding yourself, friend.
One thing you have overlooked is that most commenting here already proclaim Jesus Christ as Savior. Unfortuantly, many of the very insulting comments come from those folks saying many horrible things about Tom, too.
Our mega churches are full of folks who have no intimate relationship with our Savior. How do we know? Consistent rotten fruit.
As a matter of fact, I think back on meetings we had lamenting the fact that we KNEW most of the members were not really saved. We KNEW IT! but we still focused on tithing sermons, happy marriage sermons, get our of debt sermons etc. Even though we thought most were not saved. That is malpractice!
Want to know how we measured if they were saved? Not by Baptism because most were, but by their attendance in some bible study, etc. We measured it based on church activity. How stupid is that? And by the measurment we came to believe that perhaps only 10-12% were saved in a church of 18,000.
Our answer to this problem: more marketing, more programs and events.
One thing I have noticed over the last few years is that many are waking up to the fact that they are not really members of a true Body of Christ. The one thing that woke them up is seeing the rotten fruit of their leaders. The constant focus on money while the leaders are living a pretty good life with lots of speaking engagments, book royalties, etc.
Blogs are a service to those who are seeking a true Body.
These incidents are driving them to scripture asking what is the true Body of Christ? What does a true servant of Christ look like?
And the answer is: Not what we have been taught.
This is a wonderful thing. They are discovering that they do not need an earthly priest that calls himself a pastor. They already have a high priest if they are saved. His Name is Jesus Christ. They do not need some human to interpret scripture for them. They have the Holy Spirit!
They are discovering that our institutions are nothing like the NT Body of Christ.
This is a very good thing. I pray that you and others will 'come out from her' and seek the true Body of Christ.
There is great FREEDOM as a bondservant to Christ. And there are others truly seeking the Kingdom first. Pray and God will direct your path to them. then you will have a true witness.
Matt
Guess What? This blog is dying. God is destroying it day by day! You reap what you sow. You start tearing down God's men, you get torn down. You start "exposing" evil, you get exposed. You begin to sling mud, you get dirty. I feel so sorry for the pathetic worms that have as their life purpose the need to critque, blast, whine, judge, and condemn other people. Wow, you are going to be really "hot" one day...turn to Jesus before it is too late!
" Anonymous said...
Guess What? This blog is dying. God is destroying it day by day! You reap what you sow. You start tearing down God's men, you get torn down. You start "exposing" evil, you get exposed. You begin to sling mud, you get dirty. I feel so sorry for the pathetic worms that have as their life purpose the need to critque, blast, whine, judge, and condemn other people. Wow, you are going to be really "hot" one day...turn to Jesus before it is too late!
May 28, 2009 3:01 PM"
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bloggers notice the high degree of Biblical knowlegde displayed by the above Anon. I wonder what Book of the Bible is he referencing in determining that WD is going to hell? Speaking of "hell",what in the hell is Mac teaching those people down at FBCJ?
May 28, 2009 2:29 PM
NAILED IT BRO!
Nice work!!
Gee, seems to be some pretty threatening posts towards me here on this blog in the last few days.
One guy said he "has my number".
This guy says "I'm going to get hot"
I don't have this guy's number, but I do have his IP address. Anyone suppose JSO and the SAO will find out from Comcast his names so I can aggressively confront their unjust criticism?
Matt - Thank you, thank you, thank you. Please write a book! I'll be the first in line!
And Go Get 'Em, DOG!
" I feel so sorry for the pathetic worms that have as their life purpose the need to critque, blast, whine, judge, and condemn other people."
Anon 3:01pm.Have you ever read Matt.chap.23? Jesus critiqued the religious leaders for being hyocrites; Was he wrong? In 2Cor.11 Paul references the so-called super apostles that were plaguing the Corinthian Church. In book of 2Tim.Paul uses names to Identify to Timothy who the false teachers were; Is he wrong?
"You start tearing down God's men, you get torn down."
Where on earth did you ever get this notion? There are special men on earth for God? Are you speaking of a special professional Christian class of men? Who are elevated above other believers and if you dare disagree with them you will be punished?
Do you have a list we can see? Perhaps you base it on an earthly title conferred by other men? Would all pastors be on this list, for example? Gilyard included? Or, is he off now?
This is what they are teaching at FBC Jax now, isn't it. They are teaching it at other churches, too. Like Bellevue. Gaines is God's anointed so it is ok he protected a pedophile minister. That was a defense for him,too.
Mac is specially 'anointed' so it was ok to bring in the civil magistrate to do his dirty work.
You guys are quite scary in what you believe.
Charles Stanley was said that anyone who went against him at his church got cancer, was fired or died. He really believes this which is why he is a false teacher.
People need to wake up to what they are supporting. They are supporting wolves. Read Thess. God allows this delusion. You should be scared.
Pastor Rod, are you bi-vocational?
A dear friend of mine e-mailed me yesterday to tell me he was called by a tiny church in the sticks to pastor. He is a doctor who changed his practice so he could also minister. Taking a huge cut in what he was making with longer hours.
And the little church has no money to pay him. He is thrilled. He has been supplying there for several months and they came on bended knee to ask him to stay.
He wrote me:
"I am not a bit interested in 'growing' this church. I am interested in the relationship each of us has with our Savior. We will pray, study, edify one another, admonish each other in the Lord and ask God to add to our numbers as we live out our Holy walk with our Savior."
See, my brother here understands the Body is for believers. Believers at all levels. And his task is to help them become mature believers. That is the task of elders.
I know more and more who are choosing bi-vocational ministry. Paul was bi-vocational. Making tents so as not to be a burden on the Body.
My prayers go with you.
Matt
I don't have this guy's number, but I do have his IP address. Anyone suppose JSO and the SAO will find out from Comcast his names so I can aggressively confront their unjust criticism?
May 28, 2009 3:26 PM
You have reason to believe these are threats based on same criteria as Mac about this blog. I would ask the JSO to investigate and maybe they will give you this person's name, too, even if they find it not a threat.
Ya think?
Saying you're going to get hot could be a threat to burn down your house. I would call the cops!
"Pastor Rod, are you bi-vocational?"
Yes Matt I work a full time job.I started the minisry out of my house.
"I am not a bit interested in 'growing' this church. I am interested in the relationship each of us has with our Savior. We will pray, study, edify one another, admonish each other in the Lord and ask God to add to our numbers as we live out our Holy walk with our Savior."
See, my brother here understands the Body is for believers. Believers at all levels. And his task is to help them become mature believers. That is the task of elders."
Matt these are my sentiments exactly! I am no reverend,I am a minister(servant). I am no better than anyone else in my ministry; To tell you the truth I am the greater servant! And Matt we are not concerned about quantity,but more importantly in developing Christ honoring quality of character! We are pursuing as Paul wrote to "know Christ"! Also Matt I love ministry!
Matt these are my sentiments exactly! I am no reverend,I am a minister(servant). I am no better than anyone else in my ministry; To tell you the truth I am the greater servant! And Matt we are not concerned about quantity,but more importantly in developing Christ honoring quality of character! We are pursuing as Paul wrote to "know Christ"! Also Matt I love ministry!
May 28, 2009 6:15 PM
This, by AW Tozer, really helped me so I pass it along to you, my friend:
http://awildernessvoice.com/SaintAlone.pdf
anonymnous
L-Lawsuits equal "losers"
A-Angry over my little feelings..
W-Watchdog has fleas
S-Sue over nothing but bitterness
U-U are so backsliden Watchdog
I-I laugh at your pathetic lies
T-Temper tantrums are ugly!
That alliteration will preach!
May 28, 2009 9:29 AM
It's not an alliteration.
It's an acrostic. And a pretty lame one at that.
Sorry to interject here, but I found this misue of poetry terminology terribly annoying. I think someone needs to go back to English 101.
Also, a point more germane to the discussion: in some Baptist churches, I have seen both the office of deacon/deaconess, and trustee used. Deacons being the ones who help the pastor directly (deaconesses are usually in charge of church hospitality), and trustees are over the care of the physical church property.
I doubt that FBCJax would ever allow for a deaconess position (even though women were mightily used of God in both the ministry of Jesus Christ and in the early church). But I have seen that differentiation made regarding to duties.
Just a point of interest as someone asked about trustees.
I do think that by calling Mr. Rich a coward, sociopath, and unstable, the leadership at FBCJax have put themselves in a very shaky position in regards to the community.
Man, reading all of this and seeing how far it has gotten and that it is only just now really beginning...I can't help but wonder if millionairre mac and judge coward had just answered a few questions from a few members, those members would have eventually left and no blog would ever have been started.
But here we are. Thanks Mac and Acey, nice job handling this one guy who had some questions. (kudos for the loving resolution, too.)
Reaping what you sowed now, fellas?
Anon 10:01, you said:
"I can't help but wonder if millionairre mac and judge coward had just answered a few questions from a few members, those members would have eventually left and no blog would ever have been started."
I would like to think that "answering a few questions" would have satisfied Tom and the few others who had questions, but I personally don't believe that the answers would have been acceptable to any of these folks.
I also believe that this blog would still exist for that reason alone.
In closing, I still wish that those on both sides of the issues would not resort to all the name calling and ugliness that keeps coming up. I assume that everyone here are adults and have a better command of the English language and could make their points without all of the vitriol.
Sincerely,
T
T - the answers don't really even matter. Its the fact they are not out there for the members to see that is important. I can pull financials for many non-profits and find 100's of things I might not like, or that I disagree with. So what? I can then decide to support them financially or not. There is no reason to blog or criticize them just because I might personally disagree with some expenditures. The others all see the same numbers and do support the ministry, so I am not a threat. For example, I might not like Billy Graham's salary. Who cares. So what. The whole world knows, or can know, what it is and it is a non-issue. But if he tried to hide it, and aggressively confronted those that questioned it, he may find someone blogging about it. And if he accepted land gifts, changed by-laws, etc. and was rude and arrogant about it (stomping and confronting his donors) he certainly would have a problem.
So, the problem with FBC Jax is not the answers to the questions, it is the fact they refuse to answer them or make their operations more transparent. Once they do, people can leave or stay, but no blogging will be necessary. As long as they continue to play hardball and operate like they do, they will be vicitims of blogging. Particularly since they are so abrasive, unloving, arrogant and proud. And since this staff is so new. They don't have decades of service and trust built up like Graham or Lindsay or Vines. A little love, humility and kindness also would have defused much of the blogging.
For those who are still interested in the Roman Catholic controversy you can go to Youtube and listen to Macarthur's message on Pope and Papacy .In that message he approvingly cites Luther and Calvin and a host of other Christian stalwarts in their justification of refering to the Popes not as cult leaders but as antichrist!
Thanks Anon.
I think this is very healthy discussion. So FBC Jax and its members and the staff and pastors align themselves with those who believe the Catholic popes are the Antichrist?
It will help Jacksonville and the many Catholics and other denominations to clarify the FBC Jax position on Catholics. People in Jacksonville need to know that the big church downtown views Catholic churches as cult worship centers - the priests are cult leaders - and I guess we can assume that the parishioners of these cult temples are brainwashed cult members? And God help those poor students being taught at those cultic "schools" like Bishop Kenny and Bishop Snyder - will someone please rescue those kids from those bastions of cultic learning?
Perhaps Smyrl can also comment on the "cultic" tendencies of the Seventh Day Adventists, that would be great.
Only thing is this: Smyrl's "cult grid" from Danny Akin of SEBTS that he quoted and used as his basis for declaring the Catholics a "cult" - that is not the only definition of what is a "cult" in modern religion.
When one examines what is a "cult" today, one could argue that FBC Jax is demonstrating more and more cultic tendencies themselves under the leadership of Dr. Mac Brunson and Dr. Jim Smyrl.
So if Jim Smyrl feels it his place to convince his congregation that 1. Catholic Church is a cult, and 2. FBC members need to confront their Catholic friends they are living and believing a cultic lie, then perhaps someone needs to write a series of articles as Smyrl did about the Catholics, warning the people of Jacksonville of the cultic tendencies of FBC Jax under the leadership of Brunson and Smyrl.
Just some food for thought.
Dr. Lindsay made the same kind of statements regarding Catholics. Yet there was no phony outrage back then as is being portrayed on this blog. Yeah, I think the "outrage" is phony so that it makes the other issues seem more serious and it makes Tom seem like a loving guy to boot.
Tom did you complain to others about Dr. Lindsay's comments back then or did you just say "Amen" while sitting in your pew?
My guess is you will respond with something like "I don't remember Dr. Lindsay saying that." or "Only until recently have my eyes been "opened" to the evil at FBCJax."
Sorry, you're either lying about Lindsay, or sorely mis-informed.
Lindsay never, ever, called the catholics a Cult.
He never, ever, referred to priests as Cult Leaders.
Maybe he believed it, I don't know. But he wasn't arrogant enough to shout it from the pulpit to unnecessarily offend the people he was trying to reach with the gospel.
You see, friend, Lindsay was interested in preaching Jesus. If a Catholic is lost and they need Jesus, he would hear about Jesus from Lindsay. Lindsay knew that name calling wasn't necessary. All that was necessary was to preach Jesus, and the Holy Spirit could save a lost Catholic, a lost Bapitst, a lost whoever.
So here's the challenge: Brunson has said on multiple occasions he "has the tapes" and manuscripts of all the Linday sermons. So maybe he and Smyrl can find when Lindsay ever called the Catholic Church a "cult" from the pulpit, and when he called priests "cult leaders".
Let's hear that on a Sunday, and maybe video on the Imags - Homer calling the Catholics a cult.
And why the infatuation with what Lindsay did or didn't say?
Lindsay used the workd "jackass" several times - referring to people as "jackasses"...I felt very uncomfortable when he did it, but hey...he had 20+ years of respect and love stored up, so many of us overlooked that.
So should we call people "jackasses" who drink alcohol, as Lindsay did? Huh? Come on, defend Smyrl with something better than just "hey, Lindsay said it and you didn't object THEN." If Lindsay from the pulpit would have ever called the Catholics a Cult, and priests "cult leaders", and told people to tell their catholic friends they are "living and believing a lie", he would have been wrong to say such a thing.
WD,
I love you. I really do. But, you are missing it. If MacArthur refers to Catholicism as "antichrist," what's the difference in Smyrl referring them to a cult and the priest as cult leaders? In both cases, they are against Christ and do not belong to Him. Neither are they for Him. And those who are sitting under these kinds of teachings and believing in it, are brainwashed because they believe a lie and not the truth. They have been duped into thinking that they are in THE WAY, when they are not.
It doesn't matter how great the school may seem to be; Bishop Kenny, Bishop Henny, Seventh day Adventist, or whatever the name is, they are on the wide road. It doesn't matter what supposed great works they are doing because all of that will be as filthy rags to God. They can do no work that will deem them the right into heaven. You must have total faith and trust in Jesus Christ ALONE! Period.
There will be all kinds of people from EVERY walk of life regardless as to whatever work(s) they have done in this life, who will not enter into heaven. All because their faith and trust was not IN JESUS THE CHRIST, THE ANNOINTED ONE, THE MESSIAH, THE ONLY WAY TO GOD THE FATHER.
WD, please explore the Scriptures (in context) and put your personal thoughts aside and ask the Lord to give you greater insight concerning His Word.
May 29, 2009 2:10 PM - there you go again. Bringing up the memory of Homer Lindsay. Like Mac says "stop worshipping the past." Thanks.
Also, I specifically remember numerous times when Dr. Lindsay talked lovingly about his catholic friends and neighbors. Did he differ with them on some theological beliefs, sure he did. Vines often went jogging with a catholic priest. Its okay to disagree on theological beliefs without calling these fine Christians cults. Both Vines and Lindsey were men of great character, respect and integrity and were leaders of men and of the church because of it. Sure, Catholics (or Baptists) that are trusting in their own good works for salvation are WRONG and going to hell. They are not necessarily members of a cult because they are mistaken about this view.
But what is so wrong that believing faith without works is dead. Which is worse, saying "I trust Jesus for salvation and now must show that faith by my works?" Or saying "I am trusting Jesus for salvation and now I am once saved always saved and my works can be evil and I am still going to heaven." Our charismatics friend do not believe in once saved always saved, neither do Catholics. Are they all cults that differ with Jim's narrow view of things.
Trust Mac and Jim as to what the correct interpretation is? No thanks.
Anon - OK, I'll assume you're correct. OK, they're a cult. OK, McArthur is right, they are "antichrist". Let's just assume you and Smyrl and MacArthur are correct - Catholics are lost, and in a cult, and therefore need to be rescued from the cult and brainwashing that cults do.
If that be true...then I think it would be a good thing for people in Jacksonville to clearly be informed, to clearly understand and be made aware that this is the view of Brunson and Smyrl, and the majority of the people at FBC Jax, and the official doctrinal position of FBC Jacksonville:
Catholics are a Cult.
Priests are Cult Leaders.
Catholic parishioners, even those few who are saved, they are brainwashed Cult Members.
Let's let all of Jacksonville know this is the view of the people of FBC Jacksonville.
That way, if someone is Catholic, or not Catholic but does not view the Catholics as a "cult", they could make wise decisions about whether they come to the Passion Play, whether they partner with FBC Jax on a day of prayer, whether they would ever trust FBC Jax at VBS, or would send their kids to a school that will presumably teach their students that Catholics are cult members.
So fine, I respect your view and Smyrl's and Brunson's that they are a cult. I'm sure they won't mind then people being made aware that this is their view.
And I'm sure they won't mind either others expressing views of how FBC Jax has marks of a cult itself.
Hey, wait a minute! Didn't Jesus call the Pharisees "snakes, vipers, white washed tombs, etc etc? Wow Jesus, that's not nice. You shouldn’t talk to the religious leaders of that day in that manner. These are/were the preachers of Biblical times. It isn't nice to call names because you will not be able to reach the people by doing so. WELL, I HAVE NEWSSSSSSSS FOR YOU...if Jesus didn't reach all people, Him being the living and perfect Word, what makes you think (WD) that kind sweet words will reach these religious counterfeits? They must be called out for who they are, they are not going to heaven themselves and are blocking to doorway to heaven so that others won't enter in.
If they are not identified, how will one know that they are under the wrong teachings?
Please explain.
Come on now WD. I didn't say that those who are saved are in error. I said those who believe in the Catholic teaching and adhere to it are not saved. Because salvation is in Christ alone. And they do not believe that. If they are under those kinds of teachings and are truly saved, the Lord will show them the WAY. And if they are truly saved they will not be able to comfortable stay under that system. Now, that is what I said.
May 29, 2009 2:25 PM - wrote "There will be all kinds of people from EVERY walk of life regardless as to whatever work(s) they have done in this life, who will not enter into heaven. All because their faith and trust was not IN JESUS THE CHRIST, THE ANNOINTED ONE, THE MESSIAH, THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN."
I think the WD and all of us agree to that, sir. That is not the point. The point is that there are people that believe that in Baptist churches who show no evidence of that belief in their actions, while there are many catholics that also believe that, yet they ALSO show evidence of their faith by their works. They know their works, by themselves, won't and don't get them into heaven. However, they believe their works are their evidence that they are "working out their salvation" according the scriptures and according to the teachers/priests in their churches.
And don't forget, Baptists have also added some "works" to their list of people who are "truly saved." For example, Baptists claim if you are truly born again, you will say a prayer and mean it, you will confess Him publicly, must be baptized in full immersion, give a tithe, not blog about your pastor, etc. Ask Smyrl if you can trust in Christ alone for your salvation without saying a sincere prayer, or if you can be saved and not give a penny to the church, not be immersed, and blog about your church. If he says you can't do those things and be saved, he is adding works to the gospel.
Having said that, the Catholic church has some characteristics of a cult when they abuse and twist some scripture, and use that to control and fleece their congregants. But in my opinion, FBC JAX under Mac and Smyrl have many more such characteristics. It is what it is.
And by the way, the cannonized Bible that Baptists claim to be inerrant, contains the books the Catholic church said were legit, and don't contain the books the Catholics said were not legit. The reformation was started NOT over differences regarding works, but over the selling of indulgences! Or to put it in modern terms, the selling of "promotions from the platform during a conference" or the selling of the office of pastor by accepting large gifts, or the telling the sheep they were obligated to tithe, or by telling them Malachi 3:10 was speaking to NT Christians and not to Israelites bringing food into the temple storehouse."
Financial abuse and selling of indulgences was what sparked the reformation. (Will giving a $307K land gift get my loved one out of purgatory, Mac? Or just a commercial for my boys business during a down real estate market?) And we have even more egregious financial abuse in mega churches today. And if people keep disagreeing with Smyrl and Mac, we might need to take their Bibles away, ex-communicate anyone who questions them, and install an infallible Pope who can settle all disputes once and for all without question. Looks like some are heading in that direction already doesn't it.
But first there is one pesky blogger to intimidate, discredit and shut down...
Mac Brunson quote? "Ask not what your local church can do for you, ask what you can do for your local church staff!"
F - First
B - Baptist
C - Cult
or
F - First
B - Brunson
C - Corporation
Either way, I am glad I am OUT of there!
Dr.Dog I stand with you on the issues presented concerning Mac. But I stand with the Bible "Alone" when it comes to THE ONLY SOURCE OF SPIRITUAL TRUTH AND KNOWLEDGE. With that said you need only to turn your radio to A.M. station 1460 and listen to the Catholic Apologists(6:00pm-08:00pm) and you will see there's a vast difference between what the Bible reveals and what Catholicism teachs!. Catholic theology teaches one is saved by baptism! One can not "KNOW" whether they are saved! That a true believer can loose their salvation! That "The Mass" can help those who are dead and suffering in purgatory(not in the Bible)! That many believers go to purgatory because they did'nt die in a state of grace("WHAT"!!!)[Rom.3:20-28;Gal.2:16-21;Eph.2:8-10;Titus 3:5-7].The Bible and Catholic tradition are equal to one another! And the list goes on and on! Tom this is not and attack on Catholic individual's; But on their distorted theology! But "DEFECTIVE THEOLOGY",leads to "DEFECTIVE THINKING/REASONONG" that leads to "DEFECTIVE ACTIONS/LIVING,you can't avoid that formula! For example if I can convince you that Allah is the one true God,and that his words are to be obeyed,go and destroy the infidels. Then your thinking concerning theology is now distorted and you will possibly strap on explosives and blow your self up! Distorted theology is extremely "DANGEROUS"; You can not rise above what you think about Gods Truth! Also since God declares that He is TRUTH PERSONIFIED,and everything that comes out of His mouth is nothing but the Truth,and that He can not lie; Are we then too just push aside for the sake of unity and relationships the necessity to study and know exactly what God has said[2Tim.2:15]? To reveal in a gentle way that people are in error? This my Friend is the great issue[Luke 12:49-53]!!!
TO: May 29, 2009 12:06 PM
and don't forget GREEDY
All the below links are from Under Much Grace blog by Cindy Kunsman.
Cults.
Cult Leaders.
Cult Definition.
A Synopsis of Terminology Pertaining to Cults and Spiritual Abuse.
"In that message he approvingly cites Luther and Calvin and a host of other Christian stalwarts in their justification of refering to the Popes not as cult leaders but as antichrist!"
this makes NO sense and one reason (among others) that I check everything McArthur teaches. Both Luther and Calvin kept many 'Catholic' methods that we consider heresy today. What many reformed pastors do not tell you is that these men were interested in reforming the Catholic church. But they couldn't.
Luther, Calvin, McArthur all believe in earthly priests for believers. McArthur would deny it but teaches and practises it at his church. There is a definite chain of command practised. Not much different than what Calvin and Luther believed in.
So, how is that different than the pope? (We are warned about the Nicolaitans in Revelations)
Is the soul of a poor man worth less than the soul of a rich man?
I have to ask. It seems to me, that in these times of unemployment and home foreclosures at an all time high, that one would not have to look far to find those in need.
You'd think if one was a pastor at FBCJax downtown, he would only have to walk outside his plush air conditioned office to the streets around his mega temple to the Lord to find poor, homeless and hungry souls that could fill his pews.
What is the mission of the church? Is it to bring lost sheep to hear God's plan for salvation, or is it to build more large brick structures that make those who have food on their tables and warm beds to lay in at night feel more at home? How much is enough? How much do we really need?
How many hungry bellies could we feed with $100,000? That is only one third of Mac Brunson's salary per year, and that's not including book sales and perks.
What would Jesus really do? It seems to be a popular catch phrase, but it's so much more than that. It's a very good question that every true Christian should ponder, not just give lip service to. Mac said he is one of the lowest paid mega church pastors in the SBC. Seems to me that either maybe he needs a raise or could it be that maybe, just maybe we pay the mega church pastors way too much?
I guess what it boils down to for me is that big lighthouse downtown. Is it truly a beacon of hope, or is it just another waste of both money and space? Looks like to me that Mac's nearest mission field is in his own backyard, on the streets of downtown Jacksonville.
Readers - since you are citing John McArthur on this Catholicism topic, PLEASE also google the words "McArthur on tithing" and see what he says about that.
Readers - for those of you too lazy or too indifferent to read what McArthur says, I have cut and pasted a quote from the first article that comes up in the Google search:
"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament. Never!"
John McArthur
Biblebb board. Questions to McArthur:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/IA-tithe.htm
He gets it right about tithing.
Seems to me there's not much difference in the payment of indulgences from the poor, unlearned people of that day and the incorrect teaching about tithing today. Both used to build bigger and better and empower the leaders. It's sad because those folks had no Bible to study and learn the truth for themselves but we do.
Tom - You returned fire. Two wrongs do not make a right. You do have the opportunity to reconcile. Reconcilliation is a 2 way street. Make sure that you display sincerity when you get ready. You are going to need to humble yourself. I think that you will find reciprocal treatment. We love you Tom!
Tom wrote "Sorry, you're either lying about Lindsay, or sorely mis-informed."
First I did not write that Dr. Lindsay called them a cult, I wrote that he said similar things about Catholics.
I remember his comments for two reasons. First, I am a former Catholic (and former FBCJax member) so comments made about Catholicism make my ears tune in even more and second I have a close friend that is Catholic who saw a Linday sermon on TV and he asked me why he said such ugly things about Catholics.
But I figured you would just dismiss it.
Maybe Judge Soud is right, you are a coward, because I am sure you would never have confronted Dr. Lindsay for saying anything similar about Catholics.
Its OK Anon. We have seen this over and over again.
People have come here before and attempted to say things about Lindsay and Vines that are not true to defend Brunson. This is just a latest attempt. Sorry, but it doesn't work this time either.
I love your statement:
"First I did not write that Dr. Lindsay called them a cult, I wrote that he said similar things about Catholics."
What might be "similar" to calling them a cult? No good rotten scoundrels? Dirtbags? Catholic jerks? I mean really, either Lindsay called them a cult, or not. Did Lindsay say they were a false religion? If it stuck with you because you are a former Catholic, then tell us what he said.
I remember when Lindsay called men "Jackasses" who had beer in their fridge. It made my skin crawl and I was very uncomfortable. I remember his words exactly, and the context in which he said it - and it was 12 or so years ago.
So come on. Tell us what Lindsay said that was anywhere near calling the Catholics a cult, and referring to priests as cult leaders!!
I'm not dismissing your claim at all. I just say, if you're going to say that a dead preacher said something similar to "Catholicism is a cult", then tell us what he said.
dont go away mad wd, just go away
I can think of many perfect names for you... ASSHOLE being one. Why, it's only human for people to call you names...
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