Hello WD Readers: In this article I want to give you an update on the lawsuits, share some thoughts on where I am going with this blog, and also share my thoughts on the context of issues at FBC Jax in relation to other matters in the SBC.About the lawsuits: as the readers of the WD blog probably know, we have filed two lawsuits concerning this blog and matters at FBC Jax over the past year or so.
JSO and State Attorney's Office Federal Suit
This lawsuit against the sheriff's office (the city of Jacksonville), the state attorney's office, and the deputy and assistant state attorney is currently in federal court. This is a lawsuit claiming the actions taken by our local law enforcement in opening a criminal investigation into my blog, and then using subpoena power to obtain personal information from Google and Comcast on my blog and about me personally and at least two other bloggers, and then giving that information to FBC Jax was a violation of the First Amendment - both in matters of free speech and state establishment of religion.
The defendants filed a motion to dismiss based on something called "qualified immunity", and this week our lawyers have filed a response. The response filed on our behalf was quite lengthy, and is arguing the importance of this case in the matter of free speech, and the clearly established principle in case law that the right to choose anonymity as a component of one's speech is a fundamental part of the First Amendment's right to free speech. I hope to post a copy of this response to their motion to dismiss very soon, as it does state well the matters involved in this case.
FBC Jax and Mac Brunson Lawsuit
This suit was filed in state court a little more than 2 weeks ago, and next week the defendants should be filing their responses to the suit. I will report on that as this case moves forward.
But I do want the people of FBC Jax to know what this suit is about, and what it is not about.
This lawsuit is specifically about two things: 1. The actions taken by FBC Jax leading up to September 28, 2008 in making a police report the day after "Chest of Joash" Sunday, that resulted in a criminal investigation into my blog; and 2. Defamatory remarks made in April 2009 by Mac Brunson to the Florida Times Union concerning my mental health. This lawsuit is not about "disagreements" I have with the church over how they handled their church discipline process, or any of the matters blogged about here. Its narrowly focused on what FBC Jax leadership did, what they said to the JSO that started the investigation into my blog that resulted in them obtaining my name from Comcast as the owner of this blog site.
I know this is an uphill battle for me. Some on my blog predict my demise and have said my head will be handed to me on a platter as a result of these lawsuits. Maybe so. I know it would be easier for me to just drop it all and go away and "shut 'em down". While some people close to me support my decision to pursue these matters in court, there are many people I love and respect, who have my best interests in mind, who have counseled me to drop it all. But for now I will not.
I know there is a good chance we won't get very far in these lawsuits - I don't have the resources that those we are going up against have. I am going up against powerful men and powerful institutions. And I realize my actions have further incensed many at FBC Jax who think this blog is the source of trouble at their church, and who wrongly think I am violating scripture in filing a lawsuit against FBC Jax and Mac Brunson. This lawsuit is about matters involving how the church and the state came together under false pretenses to investigate a blogger who dared to write anonymously about matters that Mac Brunson and the Trustees of FBC Jax did not like. Those of you at FBC Jax who love your First Amendment rights, and who even this week saw how the current presidential administration is seeking to identify, and then silence and discredit and intimidate critics of their health care plan - you should likewise be very concerned that a church might be able to, at the drop of a hat, enlist the help of our government officials in the carrying out of their church discipline process against someone who dared to criticize their pastor and leadership. These are serious matters, and the only place for it to be rightly decided is in our judicial system.
Where is this blog going?
I remain very interested in the goings on in the Southern Baptist Convention, and for the near future I will continue to blog about issues that are of concern to me, especially matters of pastoral authority, spiritual abuse, and financial waste at mega churches - which may include matters at FBC Jax. I will likely continue to reflect on my experiences at FBC Jax while there under Mac Brunson's teaching, and as I gain a fuller understanding of what transpired last year leading up to my letter of 16 sins received in November, and the resulting Deacon's Resolution in February. Not to rehash events, but to educate and inform those outside of Jacksonville - both vocational ministers and laymen - so that what has happened at FBC Jax might be avoided elsewhere.
I will likely use this blog to keep readers updated on the progress of the lawsuits just as I have in this article. So stay tuned.
Watch the "Wartburg Watch" Blog
I want to recomend that my readers begin following the Wartburg Watch blog very closely. The blog authors are posting 5 articles per week, and they are focusing
on spiritual abuse in the SBC and evangelical Christianity in general. The WW blog is extremely well written and researched, and if you are interested in understanding better how the events at FBC Jax in the past few years fit into the larger picture of spiritual abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention, then the Wartburg Watch is a MUST READ for you. These authors have their own experience in falling into disfavor with an SBC pastor and church, but their focus is much wider than a single church. In the coming weeks, they will be doing some articles on the matters at FBC Jax and concerning Mac Brunson - as well as Steve Gaines at Bellevue Baptist.
on spiritual abuse in the SBC and evangelical Christianity in general. The WW blog is extremely well written and researched, and if you are interested in understanding better how the events at FBC Jax in the past few years fit into the larger picture of spiritual abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention, then the Wartburg Watch is a MUST READ for you. These authors have their own experience in falling into disfavor with an SBC pastor and church, but their focus is much wider than a single church. In the coming weeks, they will be doing some articles on the matters at FBC Jax and concerning Mac Brunson - as well as Steve Gaines at Bellevue Baptist.So that is my update, readers. My hope is that this blog and others will be used by God to open the eyes of mega church members around the SBC to the spiritual abuse that goes on right in their own church, by their own pastor enabled by his lay leaders, in the way the Word of God is preached to manipulate people, in the way church discipline is misused against critics and dissenters, and how church resources are used to enlarge the ego and pocketbook of their mega church pastors.
As always, your comments and criticisms are welcome here on this blog, and we welcome those who choose to express themselves anonymously on these matters.
143 comments:
Well, at least you are consistent. You still continue to paint yourself as the poor little victim abused by the wicked church leaders and pastor. You should be a PR man.
Remember that ALL of this could have been avoided if you had simply gone in and met with Mac before beginning your anonymous blog. Its true that openness and integrity will get you a long way--perhaps you should have practiced it instead of harping on it. Many of us simply have no sympathy for your plight--it was self induced.
"My hope is that ...... God to open the eyes of mega church members around the SBC to the spiritual abuse that goes on right in their own church, by their own pastor enabled by his lay leaders, in the way the Word of God is preached to manipulate people, in the way church discipline is misused against critics and dissenters, and how church resources are used to enlarge the ego and pocketbook of their mega church pastors."
Tom, I do not disagree with the church's investigation after your comments on giving and support finding out if there could be more to those comments from a security issue.
However, I do not support the comments made by leadership to the media and do not blame you for wanting to make those things right.
Elvis is still alive!
Kennedy was killed by three gunmen!
The towers coming down and the 911 attack was really done by those who were responsible for causing WW2.
The Holocaust never really happened!
The health care debate is being hijacked by a vast, republican controlled right wing conspiracy!
Anyone who disagrees with the current administration are really racists and not truly concerned with "changing" America as we know it and demonstrated by the votes in November 08!
Conspiracy theories have always abounded and will continue to, including the theory that these so-called "mega pastors" are lead by Satan and not by God and are out to fleece the flock and line their own pockets. I am sure that in some denominational circles that their might be some guilty of this and neither you, Matt or me can conclusively judge their hearts. If they are in the ministry for the wrong reasons, just like Jesus said of the Pharisees; "They have their reward!"
The one conspiracy theory I really love is that all of us that "choose" to "not forsake our assembly" at FBCJAX are merely mind numbed robots who are under the spell of some Charlatan and are not capable of comprehending the vast injustices done by Heir Brunson and his evil henchmen. Also, only those who are enlightened by you, Matt, BroRob, and others can truly discern the hearts of men and admonish all of the lost sheeple at FBCJ to repent, forsake our sins and leave to "Matt's Church" or better yet; "kick the bums out" and get a pastor of true convictions and heart like "Matt", a recovering pharisee.
It is not a right to have all of the benefits an American citizen is entitled to by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights if you were not born here or paid the price to take the oath of citizenship. It is not a right to own a car, own a home, or even own a phone. It is not a right to have a job, have a boat, a lake house or an house in Amelia Island or Deerwood. It is not a right to have a driver's license. It is not a right to go to this or that college. Nor is it a right to eat a meal or go to a movie. Even Paul said that if a man will not work he should not eat. It is not a right to have furniture, a stereo, a dining room suite or even a place to put them. It is not a right to be an American if you cross our borders illegally.
It is also not a right to attend or join any particular denomination or attend any particular church fellowship. It is also, not a right to join any club or organization that you wish either.
In closing, I do support your right to clear your name when it has been libeled and slandered. I do support your wife to faithfully support her husband. I do support your childrens' right to faithfully support and defend their father. I do support your right to join another fellowship if they chose to allow it. (Church membership and attendance is not a right but an election of the active fellowship to welcome new members) I do support your right to sue the JSO and the SAO, and the non-profit corporation FBCJ. And believe it or not I support your right under the Constitution to sue Brunson and anyone else that you wish because that is what the US Constitution allows and the one document that makes this country what it is.
Sincerely,
T
I get sick of people saying it could have been avoided if Tom had met with Mac. Get up to speed people! Mac declined 2 opportunities to meet with Tom. 2 different people wanted to help smooth the situation and tried to get Mac to meet with Tom and Mac is the one who would not meet.
Try a new storyline, this one is getting old but at least yall are consistent in your Tom bashing.
Truth Purveyor says
"Tom, I do not disagree with the church's investigation after your comments on giving and support finding out if there could be more to those comments from a security issue. "
I don't have a problem with the church doing an investigation. But that is the issue: what this "the church's investigation" as you called it (enlisting the help of the JSO to get to the bottom of who is the blogger so he can be dealt with), or was it an actual criminal investigation, looking into a crime that had committed or a statute that may have been violated...and if it was a criminal investigation, what was the crime? And what statute was possibly violated and what was the probable cause that opened an investigation in the first place?
And if they needed my identity as a part of the criminal investigation, one would think that an interview would be in order to see if there was "more to those comments from a security issue." If it was a security issue, why stop with just my identity? Why not interview me? So was it a security issue, or merely an identity search using the govt subpoena power?
Those are the questions that should be answered.
My hope is that this blog and others will be used by God to open the eyes of mega church members around the SBC to the spiritual abuse that goes on right in their own church, by their own pastor enabled by his lay leaders, in the way the Word of God is preached to manipulate people, in the way church discipline is misused against critics and dissenters, and how church resources are used to enlarge the ego and pocketbook of their mega church pastors.
Those are three biggest problems:
1. Word of God is preached to manipulate people. Gone are the days when anyone takes anything coming from the pulpit as God Ordained to be swallowed without any questions. We have to be Bereans. Use Logic (to detect logical fallacies) and The Word of God to check and counter-check anything coming out of the preachers mouths and actions.
2. Church discipline is misused against critics and dissenters. This is also called Pastor Discipline.
3. Church resources are used to enlarge the ego and pocketbook. I personally am not concerned with how much a pastor makes, but they should be able to be open and upfront to their own members, whose contributions help support the church, and defend their salaries and church funds going to the pastor. If any pastor has any moral backbone, they should be able to easily do this. Then let the members decide if they still want to support them, after the facts are known. To me this is a self-correcting mechanism. Pastors do not have to be afraid that they will be in the poor house to do this. Most members are fairly smart and intelligent, and do realize what the worth of each pastor is and what it takes for them to live in a secure way without stressing themselves out.
"Remember that ALL of this could have been avoided if you had simply gone in and met with Mac before beginning your anonymous blog. "
That is a good idea. As a matter of fact, I think the entire congregation should seek a private meeting with Mac individually. Let's see how far each one gets.
You keep making a moot point. Mega church pastors have no time for such things. You should be happy to get to glimpse him on stage. Like a rock star.
I think it is so cool that Tom allows you to comment. Mac would not put up with your 'advice' for one minute. Or maybe he would since you are probably Trey.
Mr. Rich, thanks for the update, and for continuing your fight for justice.
I am aware of what "qualified immunity" means legally. And what it means in the context of a church. But it is almost morally a contradiction in terms as applied to this situation. How is a church qualified to be immune from answering for (presumed) illegal and indeed hurtful actions against a member who also has a legal right to question and defend his/her position. Many churches and pastors assume a regal air of unaccountability which is entirely contrary to the example set by our Lord. If one should emulate the Lord Jesus Christ one must have and EXHIBIT HUMILITY. There is no room for the arrogance and kingly position many preachers assume. Earthly courts are many times flawed. Swayed with personage and position. But one day ALL will stand before the Perfect Judge and will accept His Perfect Judgement in His Court. And we will speak truth in agreement with Him. There is but one King, the Lord Jesus Christ.
If you lose, Mr. Rich, you still win. You have brought to attention the human and earthly position of a pastor/church. People now, are aware that pastors are falliable like the rest of us. Much is not accepted just because the pastor said so. They now must prove their position and statements by light of the Holy Bible that they are supposed to preach. This is their calling. I have heard some say that others in the church have a "root of bitterness". Well, who do they think planted, watered and harvested this root? It is true that man deceives himself. Pastors deceive many, if they produce hurt and pain in their ministries. I have known Godly pastors that would have taken a servant attitude, thus eliminating any rancour on either side. Dictums and actions passed down to the members in an arrogant kingly manner do not, in my opinion, "qualify for immunity".
Your stand is appreciated by many of us who have never had a voice or a chance to defend ourselves when hurt in a church situation brought on by a preacher. I hope preachers will reexamine their calling and if they find they are not truly called by the Lord, will get out. And if they are called pray for a servants attitude to truly reach the lost and help the hurting. All glory must go the Jesus Christ.
"I am sure that in some denominational circles that their might be some guilty of this and neither you, Matt or me can conclusively judge their hearts."
and
"I am sure that in some denominational circles that their might be some guilty of this and neither you, Matt or me can conclusively judge their hearts."
That is a moot point, friend. What is in the heart comes out in words and actions. Are you trying to convince us that is not true?
We are to judge fruit and unfortuantly, most Christians do not recognize rotten fruit because we have dumbed down sin to the point most are desensitized to it and do not recognize it. And, the Holy Spirit is not convicting them of sin so they base it on what others think is sin. Which is a big mistake.
Many also believe that their pastor's (and leaders) actions cannot be sin because of his position. They tend to see them in a different light because of their postition. They have been taught to think this way and most do not know better. They have a lower standard for their pastor than others. That is quite common and one reason the church looks more like the world as a business operation and profit center for a few.
So, all this rhetoric about not judging motives or hearts is not really biblical. It is simply an excuse for sin. As if, underneath all the sin and evil deeds,is really a heart for Christ. You know that cannot be true over a consistent long period of time with no true repentance.
What you are misunderstanding (
and it is usually misinterpreted by pastors, too) is what Christ said about not knowing who will be saved on THAT DAY....in the END. One cannot say that someone will never be saved. That is the doctrine that most confuse with this 'judging hearts' nonsense.
(By the way, if you do not judge hearts, you would never witness to anyone)
But it would be equally stupid to claim that someone is saved who continues to do evil, refuses to repent for evil, etc. That would mean the Blood was cheap and it most certainly was not. It is precious. It would mean that we are not really New Creations.
If we follow Christ, we are tasked with judging fruit. We are even taught the importance of recognizing both good and rotten fruit.
So, if our words and actions do not come from what is in our hearts, where do they come from?
Thanks for mentioning me as it gave me the chance to clear up this misconception about judging hearts. It is one of most misunderstood teachings out there and is used almost exclusively to cover up and excuse away sin by professing Christians. I used to use it all the time, too.
Matt
Anon - to clarify: the "qualified immunity" was a motion made in the JSO/SAO case, not the FBC Jax case. It is understandable they would claim immunity, but we have made a strong case that it doesn't apply.
First, I can assure you that I am not Trey.
Second, you are so deluded to think that Mac is the one who refused to meet. Tom could (and should) have gone in to meet with him the in the very beginning and aired his differences at this time. Mac could not have met with Tom since Tom was hiding and lying about his identity so please give it up on this issue.
If Tom was as active and he paints himself and his family to be, then I'm sure Mac would have met with him if Tom had simply gone into his office and requested to see the pastor.
Or, he could even have approached him after a worship service and asked to meet with him privately. I'm sure Tom would have had his meeting--but then he wouldn't have a blog to paint himself as a martyr.
deluded - maybe it's Mac posting since the poster seems to be so very able to identify mental issues. lol
Read Tiffany Thigpen Croft's blog, you know the one who blogs about Darrel Gilyard and finally got justice.
Mac refused to meet. Get your facts straight.
Anon - I readily admit I didn't seek a meeting with Mac, for my own reasons that I've explained many times. I won't bother explaining it, as I know its of no interest to you.
Of course Mac can't meet with someone that he doesn't know the identity of, why bother even stating that in your argument? No one is saying Mac should have telepathic powers to go find the blogger to meet with him.
But the other side of the story is that once I was identified Mac didn't meet with me, Mac sent no one to try to meet with me or to try Matt 18 reconcilation. He instead preached about "anonomous sources" and how they are "not as anonymous as they think they are." They decided to not go the Matt 18 route for whatever reason. They believed the best route for them was to FIRST send Blount and King to deliver a list of 16 sins and trespass papers to start their process, and to coerce ME to come meet SIX of them in a closed room with a retired circuit judge and powerful men with no representation. Its what they call "aggressively confront" in their deacon's resolution, and I wisely said NO WAY unless I had representation with me and knew how they had identified me. Soud calls me a coward - I call him a coward for not disclosing to me how I was identified as a condition to meet with me.
If they had told me "Tom, you were identified to us by the JSO as a part of an investigation into your blog, and yes, you may bring a witness, things would have been different - but of course they probably knew my next course of action would be to find out WHY an investigation was opened into my blog to positively identify me as the owner of the blog. So its my view their actions were an attempt to bully me into closing my blog, without having to disclose the method used to find me as that might be embarassing for that to come out. I could be wrong, but that is my view.
Its also true, that once it became known that the JSO and SAO were involved, that at least one pastor offered to help reconcile, BEFORE this became a media story. But the leadership of FBC Jax thought it in their best interests not to respond to those.
So pleeeease....enough of the "if you had only met with Mac" mantra. Its old and its a narrow one-sided view of what has transpired. But if it helps you process what has happened to help ease your mind, then continue repeating that to yourself.
"Second, you are so deluded to think that Mac is the one who refused to meet. Tom could (and should) have gone in to meet with him the in the very beginning and aired his differences at this time."
You really have no clue what it is like getting in to see a mega church pastor, do you?
Biblically, Tom was not obliged to meet with Mac at all privately. Are you not familiar with Gal 2? Paul publicly confronted Peter (and Peter being the senior apostle!) about his wrong and hypocritical behavior. Not only that but then Paul wrote about it in a letter for all to read for 2000 years. Same with John and Diotrephes.
See how little correct doctrine you are taught at FBCJax?
Public false teaching and wrong behavior is to be dealt with publicly. Mac wants celebrity but does not want to be questioned or disagreed with.
And now that we know how they dealt with it, we get an idea of what they would have done had Tom met with him privately. He would have been maligned and gossiped about in a whisper campaign. I have seen it way too many times not to know how it works with charlatans who have lots to lose and how they deal with dissenters.
Perhaps you never got the chance to read the forums at Pastors.com on transitioning the church? You should have read what PASTORS wrote about how they deal with those who disagree. It was right out of Machiavelli and had NOTHING to do with Christ or His Word. Of course word got out so they took the forums private. Good thing, too. It was really bizzare to see pastors talking like Vito Corleone.
" Mac could not have met with Tom since Tom was hiding and lying about his identity so please give it up on this issue."
No, you are the one who keeps bringing it up because it is all you have to defend your charlatan..er... hirling.
Somehow you have to excuse his behavior so you are trying awfully hard to make Mac's responses to the blog, Tom's fault. As if Tom is to blame for Mac's lack of spirituality. Yet, Mac is the one being paid to model Christ for many thousands of people.
I would be demanding my money back if I were you.
I think Anonymous August 8, 2009 2:36 PM is trying to earn a stateroom upgrade on the Danube Extravaganza.
The relationship between a pastor and a congregant should always be one of openness, transparancy, humility, gentleness, and with pastoral love and care. For a pastor to be otherwise is an insult on his profession. He is not to be arrogant or self willed, but rather to have the Mind of Christ. Whenever a pastor lives and reacts in the flesh there will always be opposition, but when he handles a matter with Christian love and understanding even his detractors, should there be any, think more highly of him. Its a real shame that pastors, sometimes, travel the low road rather than tread upon the spiritual high road.
Dr. Fill,
Any relation to Phil or Phel?
A stateroom upgrade, my foot. Anon 2:36 is begging for a whole free ticket! And at this rate, just may get it.
For the record when the reference in the Bible speaks of "In that Day", this is a direct reference to endtime doctrine that takes place during the tribulation. Most often found in Revelation.
For the record when the reference in the Bible speaks of "In that Day", this is a direct reference to endtime doctrine that takes place during the tribulation. Most often found in Revelation.
August 8, 2009 7:10 PM
For the record, I disagree with you.:o) But escatology is nothing to divide over or to worry over. It is simply a different interpretation. The one thing we do know is that Jesus is coming back.
But I would be careful believing that references such as above refer to a period of tribulation. Much romantisizing has been made of end times prophecy and sold many books. There is no guarantee there will a second chance to repent and believe. BUT, we do KNOW that ALL will believe and bow the knee in the end, they just will not be saved.
Matt
My Dear Brother,
I have read your concerns and you have explained yourself well. You have expressed your concerns and tried to validate what you did, and I see your side.
Yet after seeing your side, I must say...in all love and sincerity...and I must say in the same attempt as you made to voice your concerns, I must do the same (voice my concerns). Convinced from the teachings of Scripture, you were very wrong in what you did. I'm not a member. I am a pastor in another church in another state, and I will never be a pastor of a church that size nor make that kind of salary, and I don't aspire to. But your concerns should have been with Pastor Brunson or the church leadership alone.
And if those concerns were "ignored" as you say, and you felt like you couldn't get anywhere, you should have taken that as a sign that it wasn't God's will for you to deal with the situation. It wasn't your place. You then, in the spirit of love for your congregation that you said you loved so much, you did have one other option which would have been the Godly thing to do. You could have quietly left the church and found another place, but you disrupted the fellowship and took it upon yourself to feel like you had to right the wrongs.
That is not your God given place, and you usurpted your church's authority. You usurpted God's authority and tried to play God for yourself by manipulating people's opinions with a blog that ultimately is God's place, not yours. You used secular means to cause disharmony to a spiritual body. God will hold you accountable, and regardless of whether or not you THINK Dr. Brunson needs to repent, there is one thing that is incredibly clear. You need to repent...not so much to Dr. Brunson, although you should; but you need to repent before the Lord for disrupting His church and hurting others in your supposed effort to "right" these alleged "wrongs."
God bless you, and I'll pray for you,
Dr. David King
Pastor in Lawton, Oklahoma
Matt: The Book of the Revelation is clear concerning regeneration during the tribulation period. Just read Chapter 7 and in particular vs 14-17. Also, Daniel chapter 12 and Isaiah 66. Those saved previously and who are alive or dead saints Christ will resurrect and take with him to Heaven prior to the Great Tribulation period of 7 years when it takes place. It was prophecized in Job when Job was on the ground for 7 days and 7 nights Job 2:13. This was similar to Jesus explaining his death and resurrection of 3 days and 3 nights when He referred to Jonah being in the belly of a whale for 3 days and 3 nights.
After the 1000 year reign of Christ there will no longer be a chance to be saved. During the tribulation there will be many saved for they will see the Hand of God on this world like never before. That's why it is called the Great Tribulation. The Jews in particular will have 144,000 saved martyrs who give themselves to the Lord and are beheaded.
Observe Rev 20 vs 12-15. God cast the unsaved into the lake of fire. There is the mention of the dead bowing their knees in Phil chapter 2. But it will be too late for any of those who have rejected Christ to alter their position or those who died in their sins in the Old Testament or even prior to the law, ie. Adams offspring up to the Ark and prior to Moses. People write quite a lot of things that are contrary to the Bible. The Bible speaks for God as it is the written Word and 100 percent accurate on every matter contained therein. Lastly, I don't worry about it, I just read and believe it.
Off Topic:
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > A Personal Confession, A Public Challenge.
In 2004 Dr. Sheri Klouda was terminated from Southwestern Theological Seminary’s faculty as the distinguished professor of Hebrew because the seminary’s new male administration held to a principle that a “woman should never teach a man.” Sheri was released from the job of her dreams and forced to relocate to Indiana, taking a far less paying position at a Christian college. Sheri’s husband, Pinkie, whom administration knew was suffering from critical cardiac problems at the time, had to leave his medical care in Fort Worth because of the forced relocation. Sheri’s daughter also had to leave her much beloved high school where she was to graduate the very next year. Sheri and her were forced from a house in Fort Worth that they had purchased just a few months earlier – all because of administration following a perceived “theological principle.”
When our church contacted Sheri a few months after her termination, we discovered she was selling pints of her own blood to help meet medical expenses for her husband. Regardless of one’s views regarding women “teaching” men at Baptist seminaries, the question each Baptist faces is whether or not the treatment of Sheri Klouda fulfills Christ’s commandment that we love one another as Christ has loved us. If it does not, then something must be done. The God who shed his blood for us would not want us turning a blind eye to His people selling their own blood for the sake of others. Over several months our church helped raise over $20,000 dollars for the Klouda family. Christ’s command to love one another precludes silence or indifference when injustices occur. We are not even allowed by our Lord to hide behind our principles when it comes to loving His people. Our love should reach beyond our theology.
WD the guilt that people pile on your head while requiring little or nothing from those that have the greater burden to show forth Christ because of their positions in the church, is truly astounding.
2nd topic:
Well, Matt, just knew we would hear from you on this "end time" topic, and that of course, you would disagree. Why am I not suprised.
That is not your God given place, and you usurpted your church's authority. You usurpted God's authority and tried to play God for yourself by manipulating people's opinions with a blog that ultimately is God's place, not yours. You used secular means to cause disharmony to a spiritual body. God will hold you accountable, and regardless of whether or not you THINK Dr. Brunson needs to repent, there is one thing that is incredibly clear. You need to repent...not so much to Dr. Brunson, although you should; but you need to repent before the Lord for disrupting His church and hurting others in your supposed effort to "right" these alleged "wrongs."
God bless you, and I'll pray for you.
Sir, you are sadly mistaken.
I would encourage you to pray first and foremost for Pastor Mac Bruson and Fbc Jax Leadership. That Mac and Fbc Jax Leadership would repent of their actions.
Based on your reasoning, we must give a pass to Bob Gray, Darrell Gillyard and others like them. BTW, I am not comparing Pastor Mac Brunson to them. I am comparing your reasoning. So based on your reasoning, if Gilyard was molesting young children and women, and if the Church where Gilyard pastored, ignored these complaints and shunned the victims, then by your reasoning we should say OK. It is God's will. We will lay down and let these perps sexually abuse our children and women.
Is that what you are saying?
Please think what your reasoning is leading one to.
I do not hold any anger against you, but only against your reasoning. I pray that God will convict your heart and open your eyes, for you to voice your voice against these actions.
Of course, Mac is not in this league. What Watchdog is doing is OK. What Mac did with the way of finding Watchdog's identity and what he did after his identity was known is the problem. If you can not see anything wrong with it, may God open your eyes.
Do most preachers lose every modicum of sense and justice when they "take up the mantel", so to speak? Why is it many ascend to a "higher plane" than the rest of us. I suggest that their "perches on high" are spiritually precarious indeed. It would seem that Jesus speaks the same through His Word to all of us.
Wow, what a shock ... a pastor thinks Watchdog was wrong to challenge Mac, because pastors are God ordained authority!
(But if Watchdog should not have said anything publicly about his diagreements with Mac, why is it ok for a pastor from some other church to publicly disagree with Watchdog? Oh, yeah ... cuz pastors can do what mere mortals can't.)
Anon, I know all the arguments for the pre-mill position. I used to teach them and was mentored along by David Reagan and others whom you would recognize as well known pre mill evangelists and book writers.
I am now a pan mill. I believe it will all pan out. (wink)
Matt
"It wasn't your place. You then, in the spirit of love for your congregation that you said you loved so much, you did have one other option which would have been the Godly thing to do. You could have quietly left the church and found another place, but you disrupted the fellowship and took it upon yourself to feel like you had to right the wrongs."
What fellowship? You are assuming it is a church. And what is the church? If you can define a church biblically, your entire argument fizzles.
You are just scared, aren't you pastor.
"That is not your God given place, and you usurpted your church's authority."
Huh? Are speaking of mere men with man given titles here? Or the building? It has to be a true Body of Christ which FBC Jax is not.
" You usurpted God's authority and tried to play God for yourself by manipulating people's opinions with a blog that ultimately is God's place, not yours."
If that is the case then the Epistles should never have been written.
Diotrephes was right and so was Peter to refuse to eat with the Gentiles! How dare Paul usurp the churches authority by rebuking him!
BTW: Thank you, Tom, for warning us about the charlatan pastor at FBCJax.
Unfortuantly, he is not the only pastor who thinks he is a little pope.
"You used secular means to cause disharmony to a spiritual body."
What spirituality? Getting subpeona's? Using the SECULAR government to get those subpeona's? Trespass warnings? Oops, once again that 'spiritual body' used SECULAR government to issue those!
Talk about double standards for pastors! Tom is bad for using secualar government AFTER the so called 'church' does. But Tom bad. FBCJax is a spiritual body. Go figure.
Sounds like 'Dr King' is another authoritarian who thinks he is in charge of other believers and must be obeyed.
These pastors are quaking in their boots over blogs. Anyone else notice that? It is a real threat to their power and influence. People actually questioning them! And he uses his 'Dr' to try and give himself some credibility. When, in reality, seminary is nothing but a place to learn what a pastor ISN'T.
"God will hold you accountable, and regardless of whether or not you THINK Dr. Brunson needs to repent, there is one thing that is incredibly clear."
But wait, DR. Mac is the 'teacher' and teachers are held to a higher standard adn will be judged more harshly. And this 'teacher' used secular means. Funny how that does not concern you. Part of the pastors.com club.
But notice what this pastor is really saying here. Tom, you have no right to question a pastor. That is the REAL message. You have no right to think that Mac should repent. You are not qualified to have an opinion because you are suppposed to be a follower of men. Not Christ. You can only know Christ through these men.
The arrogance is astounding. But it is real and in many of our churches today.
Dr. King, you need a big fat dose of humility. Get out of ministry. You are not qualfied. WE can drive mac truck (pun intended) sized holes through your unbiblical reasoning here. You probably believe there are actual 'laymen' in the church, too.
You would.
(But if Watchdog should not have said anything publicly about his diagreements with Mac, why is it ok for a pastor from some other church to publicly disagree with Watchdog? Oh, yeah ... cuz pastors can do what mere mortals can't.)
EXCELLENT POINT!
But more than that he rebuked Tom publicly on his blog! Of course, it is ok for him to do such a thing...he is God's special anointed. A 'professional' Christian who makes his living from folks offerings. People that he thinks are less than him.
Funny how that works.
Some signs of churches with a spiritual abuse problem according to Stephen Lambert's site, The Signs of Spiritual Abuse as cited on Provender:
Apotheosis of the leadership — exalting them to God-like status in and over the group
absolute authority of the leadership
No real accountability of the leadership to the corporate body
Pervasive abuse and misuse of authority in personal dealings with members
Paranoia and insecurity by the leaders
Abuse, misuse, and inordinate incidence of "church discipline"
Doctrinal demeanment and devaluation — the requisite of espousing and teaching "sound doctrine" is demeaned and devalued
Theological incompetency by the leadership, especially with respect to the rules of hermeneutics and Bible exegesis employed in the formulation of doctrine, giving license to twisting and adulteration of Scripture in order to provide proof-texts for unorthodox and invented doctrines
De facto legalism, or works mentality, and its resulting loss of the "joy of salvation," though "freedom" is forever preached from the pulpit and the church is constantly touted as being a "safe church" by the leadership
David King - thank you for your post, as it helps demonstrate what this entire blog is about.
It is about pastors who, like you apparently, place themselves in spiritually superior positions above lay people, that for a lay person to dare call out problems in the church is sinning, has "usurpted" (did you mean "usurped"?) power from the church, has disrupted the fellowship, has "played God", and needs to "repent" to the pastor. Really, I need to REPENT to the pastor? Should I pray and also receive him as my savior and be baptized in his name?
When I first read your post, I said to myself, "this guy has to be a graduate of SWBTS" to have this view of laypeople and pastors, and to come here and say these things, then sign it as "Dr. David King".
So sure enough, if you go read Doctor David King's bio at his church website at Calvary Baptist in Lawton, Oklahoma, you'll see Doctor King "attended" SWBTS and Liberty, and before pastoring he was employed at Criswell College in the media department.
I also am not impressed that you call yourself "DOCTOR" David King. I'll be sure and call you if I get sick or need medical attention.
But I also must say, Doctor King, not only does your title of "Doctor" does not impress me one bit, but given the institution from which you earned your masters and doctorate makes your use of the title even less impressive. Your bio says your masters and doctorate comes from Covington Theological Seminary, about which was reported in the Washington Times:
"Covington is not accredited by the Association of Theological Schools, as are all six Southern Baptist Convention seminaries."
and
"Covington fits into a category known as a “diploma mill,” an entity that demands little academic training, enables students to bypass rigorous education, has no legitimate accreditation and awards impressive sounding degrees. "
Covington Theological Seminary is the "diploma mill" that got Steven Flockhart into trouble at First Baptist Church West Palm Beach.
Doctor King is another example of pastors that really have too high a view of themselves.
At least get your degree from an accredited institution before calling yourself "Doctor".
It was brought to my attention that Doctor David King posted not only here on my blog, reprimanding me and calling me to repent to Mac and God, but Doctor David King has also posted is comments over at the VERY secular "Topix" discussion board at this site:
Should Mac Brunson Resign
So, good doctor, I have also posted my response to you there as well - just trying to be fair and balanced, you know.
Do most preachers lose every modicum of sense and justice when they "take up the mantel", so to speak? Why is it many ascend to a "higher plane" than the rest of us. I suggest that their "perches on high" are spiritually precarious indeed.
The air is so thin up there it affects their ability to think.
Did anyone else hear a thud? It must have been the good doctor falling off his pedestal.
There is a treasure trove of info on spiritual abuse on the right side of this blog
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/
Funny how GODS timing is,
At midnight Our Blog Post of the day specifically targeted this subject with an article concerning
"are all doctors really doctors" by Tim Morton.
check this August 9th post on purifythechurch.com.
It is written nicely and through.
So, good doctor, I have also posted my response to you there as well - just trying to be fair and balanced, you know.
August 9, 2009 12:44 AM
_________________________________
Thanks to the "good doctor's" blog and his comments it only gives me even more peace of mind to leave FBCJ . . .yes, today I'm at home today watching on TV the "many" empty seats at FBC in the service while the Shepherd and (others) are doing their "good works" on yet another 5 star tour in Germany on so called Mission trip.
This "good doctor" needs to attend to his own business and leave us alone here in Jacksonville - we can handle our on issues without his help.
Thanks WD - Majority of Members of FBCJ do support you!
Matt 11:32: I am sooooo impressed. I bow to your superior knowledge and famous mentors. And wow you have taught others, wow. My mentor the Lord and my Bible are no match for you. I don't teach anyone, so sad, I just study my Bible, which of course, is not enough, for todays scholars.
The saying goes that oil and water don't mix. I see another contradiction, "humility and preachers don't mix". This lack of humility among the clergy seems to be an epidemic.
Dr. David King,
You my brother are learning a valuable lesson on this blog. If you disagree with Tom Rich or question any of his actions, thoughts, or motives, they will immediately begin to attack and malign you.
The sad truth exists that no amount of preacher behavior justifies with Tom Rich did with his anonymous blog.
Most of the bloggers on here don't even go to FBC, Jax (or probably anywhere else) so don't worry about their cheap criticisms. You spoke the truth and they can't stand that.
Another lie.
I allow people to post here all the time, they call me names, call me to repent, and those people aren't attacked. Their views may be challenged by me and others, but that's OK, this is a blog. If you can't stand to have your posts challenged, if you can't stand to have your credentials challenged, don't come here and post. Post on your own blog.
Dr. David King came here to call for me to repent to Mac, and to repent to God, and he has posted that on the Jax Topix site as well.
I challenged his views, and pointed out what I think is his arrogance.
I also have pointed out that he posts as "Dr. David King, Pastor" when his advanced degrees come from a diploma mill. Not my words, the words of ABP and the Washington Times.
Perhaps YOU can't handle the truth, sir.
And another question for David:
Since you publicly called me to repent for publicly calling out Mac Brunson on this blog, will you also come here and publicly call on Mac Brunson to repent for his words to the media about me? Or was that OK, because he is a pastor and he is allowed to do that?
Tom,
You are really beginning to sound like a junior high girl. "I did this because he did this."
That reasoning should have gone out when you reached puberty.
Dr King could easily be a minister of a church FBC Jax size. He spouts the same line that I hear from my Megachurch pastor - if you don't like something about the church - get the heck OUT!. The pastors who "preach" this give no threshold as to what qualifies for a regular ole member to make his voice heard. As mentioned in this comment run, even child molestation does not make the cut in some places! I agree that somebody whining about not singing all 4 verses of their favorite hymm is not needed BUT there are issues that cross a threshold that may cause a member not in the "inner circle" of big money givers and yes men to take a stand!
The Watchdog is hot on their trail and they are running scared! As somebody said earlier (and the title of the 1st book I could read)
GO DOG GO!
Dog:
I would not be so quick to such poor chances to your lawsuits because you are one person with little funds.
Lawsuits are won all the time by poor persons with little funds. Often, if the lawsuit looks promising, the lawyers advance the funds to make the playing field even.
I have read the pleadings in the SAO and JSO case, but have not read your response. Let me encourage you to not only post your response, but to also post the motions to dismiss filed by the SAO and JSO. They will give the necessary context to the issue of "qualified immunity" to the readers on this blog who may have never heard of the term.
I also hope that you will post the court's order when it is issued.
Finally, I believe that the federal courts in the U.S. are interested in justice. If the facts and law show that the law was violated, then you will be vindicated. If they do not, then the cases will be dismissed. It's all a question of what the facts are and what the law provides. I do not believe that the federal courts will make decisions either for or against you or FBC Jax based on money, fame etc.
I have not and will not pretend to tell you what you should do, and I will not (as I have said before) begin to predict what the court will do, especially with any conviction about it.
I do wish you and your family the best.
Louis
Matt 11:32: I am sooooo impressed. I bow to your superior knowledge and famous mentors. And wow you have taught others, wow. My mentor the Lord and my Bible are no match for you. I don't teach anyone, so sad, I just study my Bible, which of course, is not enough, for todays scholars.
August 9, 2009 10:39 AM
When I teach escatology now, if I am hounded to, I teach all viewpoints instead of just pre-mill. There are godly men and women in each view.
Please forgive me for offending you in my last comment.
Matt
"Finally, I believe that the federal courts in the U.S. are interested in justice. If the facts and law show that the law was violated, then you will be vindicated. If they do not, then the cases will be dismissed. It's all a question of what the facts are and what the law provides. I do not believe that the federal courts will make decisions either for or against you or FBC Jax based on money, fame etc."
Nice try, Louis. You are one slick dude. That last sentence was meant to plant some seeds. Been reading you way to long not to see it.
You really think a former judge will have no influence with his peers in court? You think we just fell off the turnip truck?
Sure, we all see 'justice' meted out fairly, all the time. uh huh.
Dog, and others:
Please don't put down Ph.D. degrees earned from reputable institutions. It represents a lot of very hard work, independent research and thought, and satisfying senior faculty members at the reputable institution.
Also keep in mind that when the earliest Ph.D.s were called "doctor" or "herr Doctor Professor", the medical people were called blood-letter, leach, barber, medicine man, shaman, etc.
The title doctor, as applied to an academician represents a true post-graduate degree. The M.D. is a baccalaureate degree that requires hard work, but no independent research and writing.
Louis said ...
I have read the pleadings in the SAO and JSO case, but have not read your response. Let me encourage you to not only post your response, but to also post the motions to dismiss filed by the SAO and JSO. They will give the necessary context to the issue of "qualified immunity" to the readers on this blog who may have never heard of the term.
And, Watchdog, let me encourage you not to publicize your legal strategy to the world, to be used as an opportunity for those who do not support your cause to dissect it and develop a counter strategy.
(Lydia -- turnip truck indeed!)
I just spent the last 30 minutes watching the broadcast from FBC, Jax and would just offer these observations:
1. Nothing was ever said about it being a ministry of FBC, Jax or anything about the church or how to get to it. It was said that it was the Inlight Ministry and Mac went on to say basically that it belonged to him.
2. I got very very weary of hearing Mac say "you need to know this" or "I'm going to tell you this." Any homiletics professor would tell you that is faulty preaching.
3. After reading this blog I would naturally assume that FBC, Jax is basically empty these days and noone is attending because of what all they have done to poor Tom. Not so. In fact the camera frequently scanned the audience and the bottom floor was packed. They did not show the balcony except from a distrance and it appeared to be nearly full. What goes????
4. I did notice that the congregation seemed to be very old. There were very very few young people and couples. Not sure what that means.
I did notice that Mac sweated all the time and was always brining out his hankie to wipe his face. Perhaps there isn't enough money to run the AC at an acceptable level for a paunchy preacher.
Louis claims to be a lawyer. HA!!!!!
Here's the New Southern Baptist
"New Breakout Leaders (pastors)"
"What Pastors Wish Their Church Members Knew"
"The Future of Baptists at Union University"
"Schedule Oct 6-9, 2009"
"Speakers"
-
WD: Don't give up ANY info regarding your case on this blog.!!! No matter who says what. I am sure your attorney says the same. Some are encouraging you to give your game plan away. I just love how "interested" in your welfare some are. Some remind me of the "sly foxes" that are so ingratiating in the Charles Dickens novels. Always bowing and smiling but not really a friend.
After reading this blog I would naturally assume that FBC, Jax is basically empty these days and noone is attending because of what all they have done to poor Tom. Not so. In fact the camera frequently scanned the audience and the bottom floor was packed. They did not show the balcony except from a distrance and it appeared to be nearly full. What goes????
Answer: The camera zero's in on certain sections to make it appear full - pews are roped off - lots of space between people. Once during a storm the audience was told (Vines) to sit towards the middle so on TV it looked well. The camera men are "coached" to make the church appear full - take a real look at the choir - smaller and smaller and smaller with mostly "new" faces.
The opening on TV of the smiling bright faces is from "years" ago, the past - not present!
I agree whole-heartedly. WD you need to play things VERY close to the vest. Do NOT show your cards for anything. Please. It will be at your on peril that you show your hand. Those on the other side (the Mac-side) are so evil, they will look for any toe hold.
Re: Discussing your case.....Don't trust and don't verify!!!!
Anon August 10, 2009 8:04 AM: If the church is now thinly-attended and the choir shrinking:
1. Why is this not being addressed?
2. Why is Mac not being held accountable?
3. Also, why does this not show the Mac supporters that post here (perhaps just loud family members with a full-meal-deal-ticket to lose, my guess, and probably Baptist Mafia thugs)that post here that Hey, the WD is onto something very valid here?
4. And one last question, did it take the WD to point out the obvious here for people to get a clue and bail or were people starting to leave in droves prior to this blog?
Thanks in advance for your time and anyone else that can legitimately answer these questions. Thanks WD for letting me post this.
I heard last week that attendance is strong, and giving is strong, at least as compared to other churches in these difficult economic times.
So by all "important" measures, nickels and noses, things at FBC Jax are going great.
Another factor that all mega's are starting to do is start up other campuses and they are telling folks that this will make attendance at the main church go down.
Some of those folks they were losing anyway because of gas prices so opening up other campuses was a way to make them stay.
Mega's also have many tricks to make the place look full. In my former mega they do it with lighting and the sanctuary was designed for just this purpose. They darken certain areas and rope them off. And that areas open look full.
Looking full is their priority next to money, of course.
Dr.Dog I just read Mr.David Kings blog...
There must have been a major typo!
He could not have really meant that you should go to Mac and repent???
Who is Mac supposed to be;the Fourth person of the Trinity???
If Mr.King is a Doctor with that rambling diatribe...then I must be the reincarnation of the Apostle Paul!!!
"Some of those folks they were losing anyway because of gas prices so opening up other campuses was a way to make them stay."
Now that comment brought a smile, as the folks at Ponte Vedra, Nocatee, Palencia and The World Golf Village really did not need a "campus" in their backyard as for the most part they are the ones who do have gas money! :>)
Arce said...
Dog, and others:
Please don't put down Ph.D. degrees earned from reputable institutions. It represents a lot of very hard work, independent research and thought . . .
________________________________
Absolutely correct! It's the "honorary" preachers who use this title that was not earned academically who are the most annoying and least respected.
One well known & popular minister who has been given several "honorary" doctor's title for his work in the field when introduced as Dr (so & so) told the congregation "I'm not a doctor, I'm not even a nurse".
Most of those with earned titles of Ph.D.'s seldom feel the need to identify theirselves as "doctors". You are so right, it involves lots of "hard work" (and money) to earn a legitimate Ph.D. degree.
The one thing one can be sure of is that Mac is sweating bullets. Or at least that other guy on staff that is the gun nut is. No matter what way this whole thing turns out, A change as been made in FBCJax s future. Even the blind sheep that will follow him to slaughter will think twice when Mac stands up and gives his best poor mouth. Oh some will still give so they can maintain whatever needs to be done for the Churches basic needs, but future pet projects of Mac and Debs might be a little few and far between. The truth is that maybe when you build something so large (even if It's for the Kingdom of god). You find It's like a very large ship. The larger It is, the harder to turn around in the river.
Lydia:
I believe that you are an intelligent person.
But I believe that your openly suspecting and discussing, in advance, that the federal court hearing this matter is biased does not reflect a very intelligent position.
It not only is not intelligent, it is really sad.
I understand that you regularly disagree with some of the things I say, and that you constanly say I am planting some kind of seeds to some end etc. (you will have to explain that to me someday). That's fine. We all have different opinions.
And I suspect that at some point in your life, a court did something or did not do something that upset you greatly. So, you have concluded that if courts disagree with what you think they should do, there must be some hidden reason (e.g. bias) that motivates the courts.
But I think if you will reflect on it for just a minute, you might think it would be better not to impugn a federal judge, whose name (let alone background and record) you probably don't even know.
It might be more fitting to match your intelligence and genuine Christian character (both of which I believe you have an ample supply of, well beyond mine) if you simply approach this with the understanding that the U.S. District Courts of this country do not make law. They take the facts (most, if not all, of which will be undisputed as it relates to the SAO and JSO) and apply the law that is found in the US Constitution, the Federal or State Statutes at issue, or the state common law.
And if the U.S. District Court makes a mistake (especially if it is based on something as blatant as sheer bias), the matter can and will be overturned on appeal.
Now, if you are going to tell me that all of the appellate Judges on the
11th Circuit Court of Appeals are biased in favor of the ASO, the JSO, FBC Jax etc., then I am not sure there's any more that I can say. That begins to take on Oliver Stone like qualities.
For the sake of discussion, however, I am curious about your reference to the "seeds" I am planting. What are these "seeds". Where will they sprout? What will they produce? Why do you give such obligue warnings about them?
Maybe you have an idea for a book in you. I recently read a science fiction novel about the implant of seeds in the brain that promised to make people super smart. It was called "Hyperthought."
Maybe you can write a book about a guy who comments on blogs, and like Svengali, holds sway over large groups of people - and they don't even know it. There can be a protagonist, maybe you, who fights the evil commenter with her rapier wit and keeps people on the blog from becoming transfixed.
I have written the story line. I'll leave the title to you :)
Finally, Dog, I am sure that you understand that I have only requested the posting of public pleadings and the court's order. Not you or your lawyer's legal strategy. Some folks on here don't understand the difference, but I appreciate your understanding on that.
It's just hard to read a response without reading the thing to which it is responding.
And when the court rules, it will be helpful to see what the court actually says.
Thanks.
Louis
Tom,
Just because you disagree with Paige Patterson or some who have earned degrees from SWBTS or Criswell College, don't belittle those institutions. Lots of Godly men that pastor all sizes of Churches have graduated from there.
And the role of Pastor, even in the early Church, was set aside as a special role in the Church. At least it was according to Paul in his letter to Timothy. Pastors carry the gift of forthtelling meaning they are gifted in taking the Bible and giving it to congregants in a way they can understand and apply to their lives.
And should you ask forgiveness to Brunson. Yes, but not becuase he is a Pastor, but a fellow believer. As Christians, we are called to ask our brothers and sisters for forgiveness when we have sinned against them. The same applies to Mac as well. Both of you have slandered each other. You via this blog and him via the print media.
An example from Philadelphia politics, how in a federal court, a judge is swayed by "positive" comments from politicians to go easy on someone:
Philly News > Vincent Fumo.
Fumo gets 55 months.
The Fumo travesty: Old boy network alive & well.
In Fumo case, judge misfires.
Here is a person who was convivted on ALL counts (137 counts) and gets a lenient sentence, mainly due to letter of comments from politicians who are ALL messed up to begin with. Lot of people in Philadelphia are disappointed, except the rich and powerful.
"I believe that you are an intelligent person."
Thanks! Uh oh...there's a catch...
"But I believe that your openly suspecting and discussing, in advance, that the federal court hearing this matter is biased does not reflect a very intelligent position."
I am devestated. I don't think I can go on.
Actually, I was responding to this comment you made about Federal courts in general:
"Finally, I believe that the federal courts in the U.S. are interested in justice. If the facts and law show that the law was violated, then you will be vindicated. If they do not, then the cases will be dismissed. It's all a question of what the facts are and what the law provides. I do not believe that the federal courts will make decisions either for or against you or FBC Jax based on money, fame etc."
I was thinking of the 9th District Federal court when you made that statement. Actually, I thought your statement was a bit naive but then, you probably are not naive so what else could such a statement mean?
"And I suspect that at some point in your life, a court did something or did not do something that upset you greatly. So, you have concluded that if courts disagree with what you think they should do, there must be some hidden reason (e.g. bias) that motivates the courts."
Nope. Wait, yes tax court. After a huge audit. But tax court is different. It is scarier.
Wait, there is another one... traffic court. I once fought a speeding ticket and won. I was in college and my friend fresh out of law school defended me. it was cool. Like Perry Mason. Not.
"But I think if you will reflect on it for just a minute, you might think it would be better not to impugn a federal judge, whose name (let alone background and record) you probably don't even know."
Sorta like anointed pastors? Can I be sent to an Obama camp for that?
"It might be more fitting to match your intelligence and genuine Christian character (both of which I believe you have an ample supply of, well beyond mine) if you simply approach this with the understanding that the U.S. District Courts of this country do not make law. They take the facts (most, if not all, of which will be undisputed as it relates to the SAO and JSO) and apply the law that is found in the US Constitution, the Federal or State Statutes at issue, or the state common law."
Like the 9th District?
"And if the U.S. District Court makes a mistake (especially if it is based on something as blatant as sheer bias), the matter can and will be overturned on appeal."
If one is rich.
part 2 con't
"Now, if you are going to tell me that all of the appellate Judges on the
11th Circuit Court of Appeals are biased in favor of the ASO, the JSO, FBC Jax etc., then I am not sure there's any more that I can say. That begins to take on Oliver Stone like qualities."
Nice dig. Very clever. Are you saying there is NEVER anything a judge can do to show favor to his/her government colleagues? You may want to visit my town sometime.
Such as assignments? Allowing certain evidence, witnesses? Anything? It NEVER happens?
"For the sake of discussion, however, I am curious about your reference to the "seeds" I am planting. What are these "seeds". Where will they sprout? What will they produce? Why do you give such obligue warnings about them?"
Seeds of poison. I think this...my opinion only.... based on reading you over at Wades and SBC Outpost the last 4 years....that you try and slyly move opinion by planting seeds of doubt about those you do not agree with. And planting seeds of affirmation for the charlatans.
You have consistently defended some of the biggest charlatans in the SBC. You never take a stand on right or wrong, good or evil. You analyze a position based on everthing EXCEPT good and evil.
That is a strange stance for a Christian.
"Maybe you have an idea for a book in you. I recently read a science fiction novel about the implant of seeds in the brain that promised to make people super smart. It was called "Hyperthought."
It could be a take off on the pod people. Remember them? Or better yet, an SBC Stepford Wife series. But then, that would not be science fiction.
"Maybe you can write a book about a guy who comments on blogs, and like Svengali, holds sway over large groups of people - and they don't even know it. There can be a protagonist, maybe you, who fights the evil commenter with her rapier wit and keeps people on the blog from becoming transfixed."
How did you know? Daggonit, I am outed!
My story is about a guy who poses as a lawyer on blogs to sway public opinion about charlatans in a denomination who are concerned about money drying up and their luxury lifestyles in peril.
"I have written the story line. I'll leave the title to you :)"
I am officially requesting that commenters here give me some ideas for my book title.
Scott from Texas said...
"Both of you have slandered each other. You via this blog and him via the print media."
Scott, as an attorney, I have reviewed the entire blog. There is no slander of Mac Brunson on this blog. The WD only put Brunson's statements and behaviors up against each other, to show the discrepancies (some might say hyprocrisies). To be slander it must be false. Nothing the WD said about Mac Brunson can be proved to be false.
ON THE CONTRARY, I would characterize Mac's statements as slander.
In yet another example of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" aka the "SBC good old boys club," we have this.
Mac is putting the show on the road. Maybe he can get time to visit his good friend Dr cough, cough... King while up that way. Come back to FBCJax with a 20/20 plan.
Lydia said ...
I am officially requesting that commenters here give me some ideas for my book title.
How about "SBC: The Stepford Baptist Convention"?
Scott - my comment about Doctor King being from SWBTS was to say this (and note that Doctor King did not graduate from SWBTS, he only "attended"):
It seems to me, that where Paige Patterson has led the institutions, a brand of "pastoral authority" is taught to the students which says a pastor receives a special annointing, he is on a higher spiritual plane, he is baptized into holiness and is the Annointed One....and as being annointed, he is the lone tool to be used for God to deliver God's "vision" for a church, and then he is to deliver that vision to the church. His church, if they are good Christians, will thank the preacher and God that the "vision" has been delivered, and then enact that vision. If the preacher runs into opposition with his vision, that is "persecution" by sub-par lay people, people who don't know any better, who don't read their bibles enough to know "touch not thine annointed".
I may be exaggerating a bit there, but the three most notorious pastors in the SBC in the past 5 years who have gotten into hot water over their exercise of pastoral authority and their view of lay people, all came from SWBTS and under the tutelage of Paige Patterson.
I realize that many fine servant leaders have come from SWBTS...but, BUT...church leaders interviewing pastors who graduated from SWBTS should be very careful that they don't hire a pastor/dictator, as they should seek a pastor/servant.
Bro. Tom,
I suppose there are a lot of things I could respond to, but I will not simply because I don't want to argue. I thought in writing what I did write, I was trying to be calm, fair, and not argumentative.
Let me say that when I said you should repent to Mac and to the Lord, I didn't meant that because Mac was some kind of "fourth man in the Trinity," as one writer put it. I meant that for what was done wrong to him, you should have, but the same could be said if he had wronged you too.
I suppose I shouldn't have spoken on this simply because I am not aware of the facts as much as I thought I was. So this will be my last post.
Let me also say that I am not certain what year you came to FBC, Jax, and I don't know if you were there before Bro. Vines came or if you came there after he came. Are you aware that he received his ThD from Luther Rice BEFORE Luther Rice was accrediated? What does that make his degree?
And as for our brother who got in trouble with regard to his degree at Covington, let me clarify something you said. You said,"Covington Theological Seminary is the 'diploma mill'that got Steven Flockhart into trouble at First Baptist Church West Palm Beach." Let me clarify that Covington is not what got Mr. Flockhart in trouble. He got himself in trouble because he lied about going there. He lied about getting a degree from some where he didn't. That's on him, not on the school. I have not lied to anyone at all, and the church I pastor knows where I graduated from, and the deacons of our church know full well what happened with Mr. Flockhart because I explained it to them. Even if you think Covington is not credible because it holds no national accredidation as recognized by the secular Department of Education, Flockhart made his own bed.
Covington does hold accredidation, although not recognized by a government authority, which doesn't mean it doesn't have adaquate teaching, and I did do a lot of work for my degree as well including a full load of class work and a 50,000 word thesis (248 pages) supervised by a panel of professors. So regardless of the status of the school, I earned it and worked just as hard for it as any work I did at Liberty and Southwestern, and in some cases, it was tougher.
Next, I am not a dictator type pastor. I have always believed in a collaborative team effort, and our church is not a pastor-run church, but it is in fact a committee orchestrated church. All things be equal (which I'm sure they aren't) I am under a great deal of accountability and there are many checks and balances in our church.
(to be continued)
(from previous)
they aren't) I am under a great deal of accountability and there are many checks and balances in our church.
I also am not saying that Pastors should be above scrutiny, and maybe you are right in that he has done some things wrong -- I don't know. But I ask your forgiveness and the forgiveness of the other bloggers who believe my writing carried arrogance. It was not intentional. I was only trying to say in a nutshell that I didn't think that this approach was appropriate because it soliciated a lot of comment from non-Christians, and it really can have a detriment effect on the furtherance of the Gospel, and I hate to see that hindered. I understand that you think the church officials are responsible for some of that too.
Tom, I am so sorry that you and other church members feel so hurt to the degree that I see so much anger here. I see that in the things that were said to me and the attacks they gave me and how even my education was attack. Guess I brought that on my self by using Dr. But other than that, I can't see what I did to deserve the hateful attacks. I am sorry.
But what I am saying is, why is there so much hatred here toward pastors? Do you folks really hate pastors and the work they have been called to do? Are you really hateful toward all pastors? Why can't these problems be worked out between you? I don't get it. Why does it have to be done here? How sad! How disruptive and how devisive this is! Rather than you and your lawyers go to court, why can't you sit down in a conference room and pray and talk and talk and pray and say, "We'll take a week or whatever it is and we will put everything aside to work this out so that we don't have to go to court?" Why can't these hurts be resolved in the presence of each other and we stay there until we come out walking in one accord?
I'm hurt about the things that have been said about me on this blog, and I'm not too prideful to admit that. It hurt. But if I can feel that hurt, I can imagine that all of you have been hurt more than me. I just think this whole thing was done wrong, not that people shouldn't be held accountable. It just hurts in my spirit to see people who were so mature under the leadership and strong Biblical preaching of Bro. Lindsay and Bro. Vines...I've heard their preaching and knew their philosophy of ministry and they really grew the saints, and to see this happen, it hurts, and frankly, to be honest with you, a part from prayer, I'm not sure what the answer is, but I don't believe the courts are. Pardon me for being too simple minded, but I just dont think the courts are the place for this.
I beg of you, and I plead with the leadership of FBC, Jacksonville, for the sake of the furtherance of the gospel and people in Jacksonville who need Jesus -- let's all put away the pride, chunk the pride on the altar, and sit down and work this out.
Brother, that's all I meant, and I'm very sorry for the anger I sparked, and I am very sorry if you sensed an attitude of superiority in me or a haughtiness in me. I recognize that I am nobody. Apart from anything that Jesus has put in me, I am nothing.
So I will pray for you and others that feel they have been hurt, and I will pray for the leaders of FBC as well. I love you all in the Lord, and I love Mac Brunson as well.
That's all I meant by this. God bless you all,
David King
Lawton, Oklahoma
"I see that in the things that were said to me and the attacks they gave me and how even my education was attack. Guess I brought that on my self by using Dr. But other than that, I can't see what I did to deserve the hateful attacks. I am sorry."
Are you serious? You came here and 'attacked' Tom. You don't think it was an attack? Well, the comments here were not 'attacks' either.
You came here with a superior 'pastor' attitude telling him to repent to Mac! You said he was wrong to use the secular to deal with this YET you conveniently forget Mac used the SECULAR FIRST.
Now you come with mea culpa's intertwined with whines about being 'attacked'. Try getting a subpeona and trespass order from your church...then come talk to us about attacks.
Your first comment reeked of arrogance. I double dog dare you to publicly rebuke Mac for using the secualar.
But that would not further your career as a professional Christian.
I believe your first comment was who you really are. Another arrogant pastor who attacks the sheep and gives the charlatans in your club a pass.
The WD has done nothing for which he needs to repent. Mac on the other hand . . ..
There is no general hatred for pastors. There is a deep hurt for the damage that authoritarian and authority hungry pastors are doing to their churches and to long time members. People with multigenerational membership of their families are being disciplined out of the church and then slandered to any new church they seek out, all for having the temerity to ask that the pastor and his staff have some accountability to the congregation. That church funds are not expended on extravagance and promotion for the pastor and his family. That staff who commit sins that are criminal offenses not be protected by the pastor and continued in their staff positions.
Pastors who do those things deserve NO RESPECT. They are worse than merely sinners, they are hypocrites of the kind that our Lord said would be better off wearing a stone collar while swimming in deep water. It is an insult to the Pharisees to call such a pastor a Pharisee.
So that is the issue. We love pastors who are humble, leave the business side of the church to the congregation, and keep their own lives free of greed, ambition and unconfessed/unrepented sin. Who insist on accountability for all of the staff and for their family.
They will have a long and happy tenure and will be loved for as long as any have memory of them.
David,
Don't say we didn't warn you. They follow a predictable pattern on here--argue with Tom or disagree with Tom and the attacks begin. Just look at Lydia and her hyperventilation over an imagined attack. Imagine how she would have been if it had even been true. Arce just radiates his hatred for pastors but tries to couch it in some super spiritual language.
Be glad its your last post. They will move on to fresh meat very quickly and you will soon be forgotten. I could care less about your degrees or even if you have one--you spoke the truth and those who live in darkness can't stand the light.
Lydia simply reasons well and is acidly characterized as "hyperventilating." Arce is right that the people on this board don't have a blanket hatred for pastors. We all know humble, honest pastors who put Christ and his kingdom first and who don't Lord it over the flock. We respect them. We love them. But hirelings are another matter. It's abusive, domineering pastors who abandon their role as shepherds for a lower calling that we find loathesome.
To be fair and balanced, here is a post from "Marcus Deandrea" that he posted tonight in an article over a year old, that absolutely no one would ever read there:
"Mac is a great pastor. He is very detailed in his sermons, he does the research, there is definitely something there that many other pastors do not have. I'm thankful for the few times I was able to sit and listen to him.
Anonymous said...
"I don't think it is wise for him to have such authority over the budget items. I also recall his son donating money to a church in our city to help them out. Did his son donate it, or did our budget committee donate it?"
About budget items; if the church is not saving the money, or using it improperly, then it is fine. When they decide to not use it for God or save it, then the church will not be blessed how it is now.
Complaining about helping another church is wrong. Not to mention the conspiracy theory of it being the committee and not his son. If you have a problem, ask the pastor, don't talk behind his back anonymously.
I would say more but this comment may not get approved so why bother.
Thanks
Semper Fi "
"take a real look at the choir - smaller and smaller and smaller with mostly "new" faces."
By new faces are you talking about all the nice young men who joined the choir?
http://wire.jacksonville.com/pstories/state/fl/20090811/480528054.shtml
Fla. megachurch Coral Ridge bans 6 dissidents
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sfl-coral-ridge-081009,0,2346272.story
Jim Filosa, one of the six, said he'd expected the ban. "Tullian won't leave without a fight, and neither will we. If he had come in humbly, and done changes gradually, I think he would have been more accepted. Instead, it's been more like, 'Here I am - if you don't like me, there's the door.'"
Helping with the links:
Jacksonville News > Fla. megachurch Coral Ridge bans 6 dissidents.
Six church members, including one of Kennedy's daughters, were banned after accusing Tchividjian of departing too much from the founder's style and methods, among other things.
The church responded to the group's widely circulated letters in a town hall meeting, but the dissidents persisted.
Last week, they were sent letters warning them to stay off church property and out of its programs.
Wow! They must be operating out of the same play book as Fbc Jax.
Orlando Sentinel > Church bans six dissident members - New Coral Ridge pastor moves against members who want him fired.
Deja vu, again!
The church sent the six a letter on Aug. 4, saying that if they step onto church property, they will be considered trespassers. A second letter on Thursday, signed by Tchividjian, gave the rationale: "No church government can tolerate such an insurrection from those who will not listen to admonition, refuse all counsel, and will stop at nothing until they have overthrown legitimate authority and replaced it with their own."
Church officials also visited the choir rehearsal on Wednesday night, telling the singers that if any of them signed the petition, they should consider resigning from the group.
"I told them that it's not proper to be a worship leader standing behind this pastor while disparaging him," said Bill Ashcraft, a member of the church's governing board who also spoke at the meeting. "You can have differences of opinion. But it has to be done more politely than has happened here.".
Source.
How would Pastor Wade Burleson handled this, if he was their pastor? I am certain, it would not have ended up like this.
I don't think people on this blog., hate preachers (I don't call them pastors unless they are one). THEY call THEMSELVES pastor. People are not stupid. The problem is that so many members have been victims of these "self appointed" egotistical "gurus" that every time we hear of another person being attacked it brings back our own pain. I am thankful even though this is the case, that we have this blog., and other blogs., like it. This blog., wipes away the veil of pretense that many preachers hide behind. It attempts to "keep the preachers honest", so to speak.
I would say try getting a "trespass notice" callously delivered to you, and see how happy you will be about it. Try getting stabbed in the back, behind your back, because no one had "spiritual guts" to face you and tell you the "pastor" just doesn't like you. Try serving for years in a church you loved, but that you are driven out of by "so much love" don't you know. Many of us were naive, we had previous pastors that were the "real deal" they were truly pastors. Then still trusting, we can't believe how another "pastor" (joke) can inflict so much pain. They ruin your service, cut you down with others, plant a question in the minds of members as to your character. These "small minded" men have the power and believe me, they use it. No I don't think I will be trusting any more "pastors", thank you. And guess what else, I found out I can get to heaven without these "pastors". JESUS PAID IT ALL! ALL TO HIM I OWE!!
If you rabid anti-pastor people will take the time to read about the Coral Ridge situation you will find some interesting parallels with FBC, Jax.
1. A small group is still idolizing Dr. Kennedy and won't let him rest. Seems like there are those in Jax who still idolize Lindsey and Vines.
2. The vocal dissidents don't like the music and the methodology. Sounds like a bunch of old Baptists all over America. Wake up and smell the roses. Change is here to stay.
3. The dissidents sent out mass mailings that simply were not true. Check your facts. The sad part is that one of the ringleaders is Kennedy's own daughter. Doesn't make it right though--just means she doesn't like the guy who followed her father.
4. The dissidents at least had the integrity to stand and be counted for who they are unlike Tom Rich and a bunch in Jax.
5. The dissidents think the new pastor is departing from the methods of the former pastor. Good for them! Noone wants to watch someone preaching in a robe anyway and listening to an antiquated pipe organ.
6. Thank goodness the dissidents are Presbyterians or Mac would get the blame for this one too.
7. The dissidents are being given yet another chance to air their differences before a governing board of the church but you can be sure they are no longer members. Parallels with Jax should let you all know that Tom is beating a drum that has no resonance.
I am proud of Coral Ridge and the way they handled their situation. No church and/or pastor should have to put up with this kind of malcontents.
Be sure to note that church approval among MEMBERS is running 10-1. That should tell you something.
Anon - boy, you couldn't be more off base.
This blog was not started because Mac Brunson departed from the previous pastor's methods. It wasn't started over contemporary music, carpet color, or changing traditions...or even over moving from KJV to NASB. However, it seems to me that IS what seems to be behind the Coral Ridge "dissidents".
This blog was started to point out things like:
- the pastor accepting a $300,000 land gift when he first showed up, from one of our wealthy donors
- nepotism - that is new jobs created specifically for wife and son
- the pastor having a sparse preaching schedule in the pulpit his first year
- the pastor calling his congregation a "hotbed of legalism" to pastors in North Carolina
- Paige Patterson proclaimed that Mac "never got a honeymoon" and compared the treatment of Mac his first few months to "trying to kill him"
- $100,000 being spent to renovate 3000+ sf of our new children's building for lavish office space for the pastor, wife, and dogs.
- modification of the bylaws without one word of explanation to the congregation about members having to agree to not sue the church, and removing a provision that allows for the congregation to call a special business meeting, and to create a discipline committee that is run by the pastor.
- using our facilities to hold a "Time to Stand With Israel" at the request of prominent deacons
- the selling of "promotions packages" at our Pastors Conference for up to $12,500 to sell advertising on image mags and to sell the mentioning of ministries from the pulpit, and charging ministries $750 to have a table and a power strip to set up a booth at the pastor's conference.
- the pastor preaching in a very angry, abusive manner about giving, demanding we give "a million in two weeks" for the "emergency" of repairs that were 2 years past due.
That's what started the blog, and then the involvement of the JSO and SAO gave the blog national exposure, and then Mac decided to call me a sociopath in the Florida Times Union.
So come on Anon!!! Get your head out of the sand! There is no comparison whatsoever between what the issues are at Coral Ridge, and what they are at FBC Jax! Not even close by a mile.
What you have at Coral Ridge, appears to be, another Purpose Driven take over of a traditional church. I don't have a problem with the Purpose Driven people STARTING their own church. Let the people that want a PD church attend one. Just leave the traditional church ALREADY ESTABLISHED at the "takeover" site alone. The problem comes when they TAKE OVER an existing traditional church, and (here is a hugh point) the church physical property...buildings and such. That is a a real problem for the former members that helped build the church membership on what they thought would continue... a traditional church. This takeover represents time, invested lives and money. These callous men come in tell the existing members "Change" is coming. Indeed it does. The former members can go along or get out. It's like someone taking over your house and telling you to get out. Very painful. I think the Purpose Driven Movement has done more, faster, to destroy the churches, pastors and people than anything we have seen in many years. Traditional churches...hire traditional pastors, if you can find one. PD pastors start your own churches and don't takeover existing traditional ones. And don't masquerade as one thing when you are another. Only to reveal who you really are, after you are ensconced in the church. This is what politicians do.
Tom,
At least its good to know you can still remember all the things that Mac has done to offend you. It must take a lot of effort to keep typing it over and over again.
Too bad there aren't more that are offended like you and then maybe something would be done at FBC Jax.
Oh, I forgot. You aren't a member there any more are you?
Absolutely! the Purpose-Driven takeover of churches is flat-out larceny.
No, its no effort to type it again.
But it is just a bit irritating to HAVE to do it, to correct mis-information put out by you, trying to compare FBC Jax and Coral Ridge.
You are correct, I'm no longer a member of FBC Jax. You did get that right.
11:01 - there ARE plenty of people offended by Mac and you know this! and the comment about not being a member - cheap shot! very, very cheap shot! I would suspect you of being Trey but we all know how expensive he is.
Tullian Tchividjian at Coral Ridge is Billy Graham's grandson. His mom, Gigi, has been married twice and was abused by her first husband. He was a sort of surfer boy party hound before he became a pastor.
He is also a Calvinist unlike his famous grandfather. Does anyone know how old he is? Seems he is in his 30's.
Quite frankly, these stories about him saying tht the dissidents refused admonition simple arrogance.
I am constantly amazed at how many people think the church belongs to the pastor. He is not even the leader of the church. Christ is.
Did Tullian pastor a church before he went to Coral Ridge? Does anyone know?
Seems he has little experience. And I did read something a while back of him praising Mark Driscoll. I can imagine there are some at Coral Ridge who see the depravity of a such a thing.
Please don't disparage Trey by attributing these comments to him. These comments by this Anon are WAY beneath Trey Brunson. Its not Trey. I know who it is, and its not Trey.
"Anonymous sources are not as anonymous as they THINK they are."
Mac Brunson, November 23, 2008
Pastors should preach several times in "view of a call". They should reveal what direction they want to take that church BEFORE they are hired. A church should have a VOTE as to calling the preacher. Not a small group blinded by the "star" quality of an individual. It is sort of like getting married by proxy. You marry someone you don't know, never met or talked to. Don't know their views on anything. This is a recipe for disaster. Not a marriage made in heaven. A split is sure to follow. This is the scenario at FBCJ. We were "handed" a preacher with no vote, no idea of the direction the church would be taken, and absolutely NO ACCOUNTABILITY for anything. As WD has just listed these are the problems at FBCJ.
I am not anti pastor if you are referring to 'pastor' as a spiritual gift mentioned ONCE in scripture. Frankly, there can be more than ONE pastor in the Body. It is a shepherding function. Anyone can be a pastor who has been gifted by the Holy Spirit.
Unfortuantly, what we are seeing are not pastors at all. They are CEO's who are driven by the flesh and use Jesus as their conduit for power, influence and wealth. They are hirlings.
The Body of Christ was never meant to 'follow' one human being in lock step. That is dangerous. And the reason we see all the problems we see today in what folks are calling 'churches'. If you studied on your own seeking truth prayerfully in scripture, you would understand this and be frightened by what you are seeing in these synagogues you call a church.
We should obey Christ and Christ never told us to follow a human. He told us to follow Him. He never even told us to 'obey' our leaders. that is a bad translation of a proof text (on purpose) that negates the words of Christ in other passages.
My prayer for everyone reading here is that they will immerse themselves in the Word and stop only being taught by humans. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is the BEST teacher. All true believers have anointing and are priests. We no longer need an earthly priest.
Presbyterian churches are not autonomous. It will be interesting to see if this reaches the Presbyterian ecclessiastical courts. But then, some tried that with Sproul and found his church called themselves presbyterian but were not really part of the structure so Sproul had no oversight when fleecing his donors in Ligoneir ministries. So they ended up paying for lawyers who went after a blogger.
Some of these guys are real sneaky players. The mob could use a few lessons from these guys.
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/wilkesboro-nc/T3435LK785LB5EROG
THE PURPOSE DRIVEN PLAYBOOK FOR CHURCH TAKE OVERS.
In the past ten years a lot of churches
in America and in other countries have changed from a traditional New
Testament church model to a contemporary Purpose Driven model, most
with sorrowful pitiful results. Thousands of churches have split,
closed, or had significant reductions in attendance. Most churches,
after having a brief upsurge in growth, either reverted back to their
original size or suffered church trauma by introducing the PDC model
in their congregation. It is important that EVERY church member know
if their church is targeted for a PURPOSE DRIVEN CHURCH (PDC)
takeover. Initially a small clique of church staff including the
pastor plans the change without telling the rest of the church
membership. Church Transitions (a PDC training arm) trains the clique
initiating the change in eight steps. The church is not to be
informed of the transitions until the fourth step. After the sixth
step if there are some members in the church who voice concerns the
following is suggested:#1- Identify those who are resisting the
changes.#2- Assess the effectiveness of their opposition.#3-
Befriend those who are undecided about changes.#4- Marginalize more
persistent resisters or questioners.#5- Vilify those who stay and
fight.#6- Establish new rules that will silence all resistance. Then
the members either accept the changes or leave the church. Rick
Warren, author and director of the PDC movement, says,'When you
reveal the vision to the church the old pillars are going to leave.
But let them leave ... they only hold things up.' So what are the
signs that your church is targeted for a PDC change?#1- Change in
music to a contemporary rock style.#2- Removal of hymn books...often
words on a screen.#3- Eliminating the choir or introducing a choral
'entertainment type' singing group. Repetitive praise lyrics are
used.#4- Replacing the organ/piano with rock music type instruments.#5- Dressing down to casual informal attire.#8- A repetitive 40 day
PDC study program stressing psychological relationships with each
other, the community and the world.#10- Sunday morning, evening,
and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times, named
differently or eliminated.#14- New versions of the Bible are used.#16- The decor may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the
'former church.'#17- The name 'church' is often removed and may be
called a 'campus.' Denominational names are often removed.#18- An
emphasis on more fun and party times for the youth.#19- Elimination
of altar calls or salvation invitations.#20- The elimination of such
words as 'unsaved,''lost,''hell, and 'sodomy.'#21-
Reclassification of the saved and lost to the 'churched' and
'unchurched'#22- The marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not
avid promoters of the new PDC program.
There is a misconception about the PDL takeover of a church. Tullian is reformed so he is far from PDL beliefs.
What they are following is the 'transitioning the church' playbook. There are many lessons on dealing with resistors to the changes. (Not all changes are about the carpet or music).
The point is not listening to them but to pretend to listen and then paint them as negative, bitter and sinful if they do not agree. You could read all the ideas from hirlings on pastors.com before they made the forum private.
What most resistors are 'resisting' is the heavy handedness of the new guy. They see a problem real fast that he thinks it is his church and it is my way or the highway. But resistors make the big mistake of using his changes as their proof he is bad. So it ends up looking silly to being so upset over music and organs. They should have focused on his tactics in the first place.
But the resistors are RIGHT to be concerned about some guy coming in and thinking it is HIS church. The reaction and words of Tullian says a lot about what he really is. An authoritarian leader who thinks he has the final say because of a title.
That is one reason I so respect Tom. He focused on serious issues that speak to the lack of integrity and truth in the leader.
" I think the Purpose Driven Movement has done more, faster, to destroy the churches, pastors and people than anything we have seen in many years."
August 11, 2009 10:51 AM
Anon you are absolutely correct!!!
PD is one of the most deceptive and dangerous methodologies to ever come down the pipe.
This seeker sensitive folly,pretending to want too modernize worship and Churches,to be more relevant to the world,is uknowningly leading people away from a true reverence of God and the understanding of His Word!!!
But just as the Bible predicted there would be a "falling away" from the foundational truths of Christ and Scripture in order to give the masses what they want...Ichthy eared people with absolutely no discernment,getting lead away by these charalatan pretenders not because they can't know the the Truth;
But because they don't want to know the Truth!!!
People who avoid the Light because it will expose the darkness!!!
Jeremiah sadly wrote "The prophets prophesy falsely,and the priest bear rule BY THEIR MEANS;and MY PEOPLE love to have it so[Jer.5:31]!!!
And unfortunately just as the people of Israel did we are now doing the same things!!!
Here we go with all that same garbage about Purpose Driven this and that. Mac is as far from PD as you can get. He's way too fat and sweats way too much.
I would much rather hear about the Purpose Driven Malcontents.
"He's way too fat and sweats way too much."
Sounds like Rick Warren to me.
Too bad there aren't more that are offended like you and then maybe something would be done at FBC Jax.
Oh, I forgot. You aren't a member there any more are you?
August 11, 2009 11:01 AM
___________________________________
Anon - you are correct, it is too bad that more aren't offended or something would be done at FBC Jax. I can't understand why more are not offended. You see, in these other churches, and in every other situation of church conflict I have seen, it has always involved disagreement with the direction the NEW pastor leads and in that case, I side with you. Get behind the pastor, meet with him if you like, but don't expect him to change his vision because of you. I would leave in THOSE situations like you suggest.
HOWEVER...when the NEW pastor shows time and time again (no, I won't retype them all here again) that he is using the title, pulpit, budget and people of a church to promote himself and his "brand" and enrich himself and his family and friends (Maurilio), then he NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. Transparency is one way to do this. Responding in love to all members, even those that choose to remain anonymous, would have helped. Not trying to "shut em down", not issueing "deacon resolutions" to aggressively confront dissent, and not calling dissenters "sociopaths" would have helped this situation.
At Coral Ridge, the church allowed these dissenters to be heard, Mac and Soud did not. The harder they tried to stifle the dissent, the more publicity it received.
So, sir, you and I agree on much of what you write, but you are missing the uniqueness of the brazen abuses of Donald McCall Brunson, Jr. and Maurilio Amorim.
And too bad I AM still a member. But I give my offerings, cheerfully, to the Lord's work, NOT to the bloated, inefficient, budget that pays Deb, Trey and Maurilio to do NOTHING! :)
Why do you folks assume the church belongs to the pastor?
I actually agree with much of what you said. I would never be a member of FBC, Jax just knowing what I know about Mac and what I read about him on here and in the papers but that doesn't justify anonymous blogging and disrupting the fellowship of the church. Encouraging people not to tithe or give to the church is grounds for removal in my book.
I get weary of everyone talking about transparency and openness and ways to remedy the situation at Jax. You don't get to call for it when you don't practice it yourselves. Tom should have put his name on everything in the beginning and you guys should have had the courage to stand up in a business meeting and ask questions. If you don't have a business meeting, you should have called the chairman of deacons and asked for a meeting with the deacons. Since Jax is a committee-run church, then you should have called the chairman of the appropriate committees and asked to meet with them or their committees. I have a feeling that most of you would never have had the courage to do any of these. I think had Tom had the decency to share his identity in the beginning this blog could have accomplished much more.
Obviously a blog isn't going to get Mac out of there and all this griping and complaining isn't doing a bit of good either. You can withold your tithes and offerings all you want and try to act spiritual by sending it somewhere else but I guarantee you that FBC Jax has enough money to keep operating for a long long time with or without your money.
I know most of you on here don't want to hear it but the bottom line is you are going to have to turn it over to the Lord and let Him do what He desires in your church. You don't have the right to demand repentance from Mac and he doesn't have the right to demand it from you. That's the Lord's area and it belongs to Him and Him alone.
I believe strongly that a pastor is led by God to go to a church and they are led by God to invite him to come. Since that is true, then if you hate the pastor and his way of doing it, then you have two choices:
1. Pray that he begins to do things differently and according to God's desires and your church begins to grow and prosper and you get happy about having him there.
2. Pray that he gets so good at what he does that the church down the street calls him as their new pastor and then you are rid of him.
The BOTTOM LINE is that you have to pray for him and I doubt very seriously if that is being done in Jacksonville or on this blog.
Readers: if you're interested in reading the letter circulated by D. James Kennedy's daughter (Jennifer Cassidy) calling for the ouster of the new pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian (Ft. Lauderdale), Tullian Tchividjian, I found it at this blog:
Letter from Jennifer Cassidy
Anon - in response:
- I don't think a meeting with the deacons would be granted to ANYONE who approaches the chairman of the deacons regarding concerns they have with the behavior of the pastor. Certainly my issues with Mac wouldn't ever be allowed to be presented to the deacons. When I agreed to meet with the deacons in February 2009 to defend myself against their accusations and the list of 16 sins I had committed in starting the blog, I was told specifically by John Blount I would only be able to address two issues: if I had committed sin in starting the blog, and to acknowledge I was the blog owner. I was told I wouldn't be able to bring up any of the issues raised on the blog, as that would be to "attack" the pastor and staff. They had no interest in presenting any of my concerns to the deacons, they were interested in getting them to unanimously approve a deacon's resolution. I have documented the emails between Blount and myself on the blog, that I was invited, I accepted, and then after I accepted Blount told me my speech would be narrowly restricted, and that my wife (who was also accused and banned from the church) would not be allowed to attend with me. So to suggest that if I had just told them my name up front I would have had an audience, is laughable, and shows how little you really know about FBC Jax.
- I'm not sure I would characterize FBC Jax as "committee led". It is not. It is pastor led, as it has always been, but under Brunson the Dec 2007 bylaw changes made it even more so. There is no personnel or finance committee since the Dec 2007 bylaw changes did away with the finance committee. That function was absorbed into the "Trustee" body, and Mac appoints all trustees with no input or nomination process from the congregation. Even the "discipline committee" created in the December 2007 bylaws must first meet with the pastor before it begins taking action against a member for misconduct. Therefore the discipline committee could never take action against the pastor if necessary, since they first must meet WITH the pastor before beginning any discipline action.
And really, at this point all of your issues are moot, and whether I started a blog or had marched into Mac's office with a list of grievances - it all doesn't matter now. What matters now is how FBC Jax reacted to the blog, and what elevated the blog's readership locally and nationally is their own response to it using the JSO and SAO as part of their discipline process to find my identity...and of course Mac's "sociopath" comment to the media to try and discredit me and justify the church's actions taken.
Off Topic:
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > Grace and Peace to You Geoff Hammond.
Word has come tonight from North American Mission Board trustee chairman Tim Patterson that Geoff Hammond, President of NAMB, and his three close associates at NAMB have "resigned" from their positions. Geoff has shown me nothing but Christian civility and grace since his election at President at NAMB in March of 2007. Last year at the Southern Baptist Convention, Geoff was seated on the platform with several SBC leaders. I was leaving the stage after asking the SBC parliamentarian a question when Geoff stood from where he was seated, stopped me, warmly shook my hand and greeted me by name--an act of Christian kindness that could have cost him a great deal in terms of those watching him, Geoff didn't seem to care what others thought. He struck me as simply a Christian gentleman. I will not offer an opinion of the action taken by NAMB trustees to release Geoff from his duties, but allow me to point out just a few things that I hope may shed some light on the character of Geoff Hammond.
As usual you make yourself out to be the poor maligned church member that had no voice and could not stand against the wicked leaders so you needed to start an anonymous blog. Just another example of your smoke and mirrors to let you off the hook of not doing what was right and Biblical.
If FBC Jax is as wicked and poorly managed as you think then you should "rejoice and be glad" that they kicked you out. Shake the dust from your feet and move on.
But then, you couldn't continue to be the poor maligned martyr that you have become. I really can't determine which is worse--your pity parties or the leadership of FBC Jax. Then perhaps they might be equally bad.
Thy Peace:
Since you went "Off Topic" with Dr. Hammond's resignation, I'll use that as an excuse to chime in.
I read Wade's blog before coming here.
I do not have the ability to truly analyze Dr. Hammond's performance at NAMB, but I agree completely with Wade's assessment of Hammond's nature and sincerity.
I am not a fan of combining NAMB with the IMB, and I suspect that could be in play here, but I really don't know that either.
I understand that LifeWay uses Executive Coaches. I do not know much about the practice, but can see a need for some training for people who are essentially pastors who take on more administrative roles. Some are well suited to that. Others are not.
I have heard (this is rumor)that some of the Trustees found the name of a coach off of a Google search. I have also heard that Hammond preferred using someone that may have been successfully used at LifeWay and maybe other SBC entities. It's hard to know what is going on here, and I am afraid we will never know the full story.
My instincts tell me that if you are the CEO and the Trustees tell you to use Coach X, even if Coach X appears to be unqualified, untested in SBC life and/or a Bozo, that you still use Coach X. But the future would not look bright. By using the coach, you may have already signed your death warrant. Of course, not using the coach has the same effect.
I am strictly against nepotism - hiring family members. I would work very hard in our church to prevent that from being done. But the practice thrives among Southern Baptists. I understand that even Dr. Chapman at the EC hired his own son to direct IT or information services type job. I can't believe that EC would let that happen, and I say that not because I dislike Dr. Chapman or his son. It's just a matter of principle.
Closely following the practice of hiring family is hiring friends. That happens a lot in the SBC and its churches. Part of it is understandable - we are comfortable with people we know. But we often look beyond the faults of our friends and fail to see superior merit in others if we hire people that way. I am not saying that Dr. Hammond did that, but if he did, it may have exaccerbated things, and it may have made it hard for Hammond to fight for his job. His friends may have become an asset as well as a liability. The board could have been threatening Hammond's friends if Hammond did not agree to terms. In other words, Hammond may have been negotiating for his friends more than himself at the end.
Part II to follow.
Louis
Part II
Hammond did not release a statement probably because the deal they cut did not allow him to. That may also be true of Hammond's friends, as well.
I have suspected the same thing is true of Clark Logan's resignation. Employers often secure promises not to talk in exchange for a severence package. There is nothing inherently wrong about that in all cases, but it can be terribly wrong if one is privy to the facts of a specific case. Loyd Elder, for example, received a very generous, multi-year severance package from the Sunday School Board, and I don't recall Dr. Elder ever appearing to be muzzled. I think he taught college religion classes in Nashville after he left the Sunday School Board and was fairly vocal about circumstances.
But Logan made only a brief statement, and Hammond is not saying anything. This tells me that these men are trying to protect their friends and/or family by not risking whatever severance they were able to obtain.
Again, without knowing all of the facts, it's hard to make a clear judgment.
I like Geoff Hammond very much and thought he was a great face for the NAMB. I agree with what Wade had to say about him.
I have no idea what motivated the trustees. As I have said before, I understood and understand that the competition for these jobs can be fierce. I have heard that some trustees were upset that their candidate did not get the job when Hammond got it, and that Hammond has been threatened etc. since day one. But I have no idea if that motivated any trustees at all.
I also have no idea if Hammond is good at administration. He may not be.
I will say that another concern is that SBC institutions not become personal fiefdoms of certain trustees or administrators, AND that SBC insitutions not be seen as unstable by constant wrangling and changing executives.
We need to pray for humble and competent leaders at our SBC institutions and our trustee boards.
Louis
http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor186.htm
Are you a Church Worshiper? by Paul Proctor.
After months and months, nothing new here. Same old misguided man.
Anon
"After months and months, nothing new here. Same old misguided man."
August 12, 2009 2:18 PM
Month after month,nothing new here.Same old heavy-handed,slandering,history giving,money taking,scripture twisting,non-transparent,misguided Mac.
"Nothing changed".
"We need to pray for humble and competent leaders at our SBC institutions and our trustee boards."
Actually, we need to pray for repentance and the Holy Spirit to come back. He left long ago.
In the meantime, we need to stop sending them more money to play thse silly games.
(1) I don't bother to read Louis.
(2) Nepotism is just job security for the family and friends.
(3) If pastors need "executive coaches", why not just hire the execustive coaches to be the preachers, and then we won't have to hire preachers. Skip the preachers...save the money!!! Just have executive coaches in the pulpit.
Anon 4:15;
Are you a member of or do you attend a church that contributes money to the SBC?
If so, and this bothers you as much as it does, why torture yourself any longer?
Bad behavior bothers me too, but I am hopeful for reform and influence, so I don't get discouraged beyond hope. I see that you don't hold out for any hope of change, having determined where the Holy Spirit has ceased to be.
If not, what denomination is your church a member of and/or what institutions do you contribute to that you have found to be a blessing?
Louis
"Are you a member of or do you attend a church that contributes money to the SBC?
If so, and this bothers you as much as it does, why torture yourself any longer?
Bad behavior bothers me too, but I am hopeful for reform and influence, so I don't get discouraged beyond hope. I see that you don't hold out for any hope of change, having determined where the Holy Spirit has ceased to be.
If not, what denomination is your church a member of and/or what institutions do you contribute to that you have found to be a blessing?"
Louis, I do not owe you any explanations. I am simply stating a fact about the SBC. Christians act like Christians. Not like petty worldly CEO's battling for turf and priviledge.
A great place to send money for missions is Heart Cry. No bloated bureaucrats with fancy exec coaches and luxury lifestyles for the execs and no seminary presidents with pastry chefs to support.
Anon:
I certainly agree with you about bad behavior, as I said previously.
I was not asking for an explanation and I am sorry that you took it that way.
I personally have never felt comfortable making pronouncements about when the Holy Spirit has left a place etc.
I hear your frustration and understand it. I suspect your comments about where the Holy Spirit is or is not is hyperbole.
I also suspect that you are a member of an sbc church and that you really frustrated, which I understand.
I hope things will move in a more positive direction that pleases you and causes you to say that the holy Spirit has returned to the SBC.
Louis
"I personally have never felt comfortable making pronouncements about when the Holy Spirit has left a place etc."
I can understand that. But bad fruit is bad fruit and facts are facts. Perhaps, in your view, the SBC leadership has just been having bad hair days for the last 15-20 years.
"I was not asking for an explanation and I am sorry that you took it that way."
Why would you ask questions if you did not want answers?
I have found that most people who say the "Holy Spirit has left" a church or denomination are the ones who didn't get their way over some issue or don't even attend regularly. Seems like the case in Jax.
Before you all hasten to say that the Spirit has left the SBC you need to realize there are only about 10 mega church pastors in the whole convention. There are thousands of Godly men pastoring SBC churches and they deserve your respect and not derision.
Think of that next time you need a preacher.
Anon:
An answer to a question and an explanation are different things. You can look that up if you desire.
For example:
How old are you? Where do you live? What kind of ice cream do you prefer? All questions, asking for answers. Not asking for any explanation.
Why do you act that way if you are 75 years old? Why did you decide to live in that awful place? Why do you think chocolate is so great? These are questions, too, but require some explanation as to why a person took a certain course of action or has an opinion.
Asking you whether you attend an SBC church, and if not, which denomination the church you attend is in, or which ministries have been a blessing to you require no explanation. They are simply questions.
I suspect that you attend an SBC church, and that you don't want to reveal that because it would make you look kind of silly after what you have said.
The simple questions (resulting in your unnecessarily defensive response, "I don't owe you any explanations") trigger the need in your mind to explain why you would attend or be a member of a church in a denomination from which you say the Holy Spirit has left and why you would give money to the church which forwards that to the SBC when you are telling us all not to give the SBC any money.
By the way, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit has left the SBC. Jesus promised to be with us always, even until the end of the age. And he said that were 2 or more of you gather in my name, I am there with you. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit shall come and reside "in you." etc.
So, I cannot come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit has left the SBC. When Christians meet, the Holy Spirit is there.
I concur that the SBC has problems. I cannot think of a church or denomination in the U.S. that doesn't.
But if you know of one, and can tell us in which denomination the Holy Spirit is residing, I would like to know.
Don't tell me it's the CBF. Please. That will break my heart.
Louis
WD, I think that almost anyone growing up in the church can share your pain. I have seen my share of abuse of religious power.
I'm not sure how long it will take the people of God to realize how dangerous people like Mac Brunson can be, not only for the Church, but for America. He, and people like him, will use any resource (whether it's legal or ethical or neither) to run off (and smear the reputation of) people who don't agree with his way of doing things. I feel bad for anonymous (aug 8 8:37). It's a good thing he didn't know a "great leader" like Jim Jones. I'm sure he would have loved the Kool-Aid.
Watchdog, keep doing the right thing. This is not a useless or pointless fight. We need people like you to fight for the freedom of Christians and Americans. Hang in there.
Also - do you have a fund set up where people can donate to your legal battle?
Many preachers have an exalted inflated view of themselves. As to people "needing a preacher", this is a perfect example of pomposity. It appears that the preachers need the people to stay in business. Why would one NEED a preacher? To do what? Most deep christians (Bible believers) can read the Bible, are not devoid of spiritual discernment. Don't need to listen to scripture being twisted for an agenda. People are perfectly capable of understanding their Bible. You don't need a preacher to "pray" for you. Another believer can do that. The best prayer comes from yourself. After all you know what you want to say or ask of the Lord. You certinly don't need a preacher to pray over you AFTER you are dead at a funeral. What for? He is not going to be able to raise you up. Is he supposed to bring "comfort"? Most likely he didn't bring comfort before you died. And to top it off most of the time your family has to pay him to show up to PREACH your funeral.
Louis, that is quite a grilling. Kind of like being on the witness stand, I guess. you going postal on us?
I guess in your Christian world view petty CEO types battling for turf is normal operating procedure for Christian leaders and it means they are filled with the Holy Spirit. That is typical and one reason we are where we are today. You and many like you believe that.
"By the way, I do not believe that the Holy Spirit has left the SBC. Jesus promised to be with us always, even until the end of the age. And he said that were 2 or more of you gather in my name, I am there with you. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit shall come and reside "in you." etc."
What do you think it means in Revelation when Christ tells the churches He will remove His Lampstand? And His warnings were even for churches with less evil than the SBC!
The problem is that the SBC is not a church.So we can ignore that evil all day long. It is only in our entities,right?
I guess you are going to tell me the Holy Spirit has been guiding Patterson. And of course the Trustees in the Hammond situation...praising him then firing him. I could give a list a mile long from the SBC that are obvious evil. Not just bad hair days, but institutionalized evil of turf battles, back stabbing and influence peddling.
Oh, I believe there is a remnant out there even within some SBC churches. One reason is because some realize the church is not owned by the pastor. But Christians take up a cross and follow Christ. They do not act like the Corleone brothers.
What is CBF?
Preaching is not the problem and we know there are many preachers who are God fearing,Christ loving men called by God.
The problem whether one wants to admit it or not,is the massive amounts of monies invovled in Christian ministry.
If only poverty and persecution were involved in preaching for Christ;How mmany of these so-called preachers would pursue ministry?
I have a very small ministry and I see the amounts that are faithful members give.
I could'nt imagine what it would be like if we had 10 or 100 times the number of members giving!
Now imaging if you are a covetous greedy man and have the gift of gabb?
What better place to go where the people are basically Scriptually ignorant and there is no oversight or transparency concerning the monies coming in.
You as the Pastor have basically total control over the funds...
You as the Pastor of a mega or even a small or medium size ministry will quickly surround your self with the Biblically ignorant so as too insulate yourself from any discerning member(s)who may want answers!
What a racket!!!
Gullible members and easy money for the taking!!!
Especially if you are greedy,covetous person!!!
That's why I state watch carefully the man who takes large salaries and live luxuriously off of the givings of the people of God!!!
Something will not be right!!!
Always watch the "MONEY"
Why is everyone so hard on Louis? Seriously.
Anon.9:50 I agree with you. The heavy handedness of some preachers can indeed be daunting. Get in a war of words with a preacher and be prepared to change some of your traditional ideas as to their "calling". Many are past masters at attacking the "evil member" that has some questions or views a problem differently than the "pastor". Mess with them and you could get the dreaded "trespass notice."
Some say the "pastor" is ordained. Ordained for what? To ride roughshod over the congregation. Except those that are in lock step with him. Ordained to extract money to support a rich and famous lifestyle. Ordained to hire family members to do the same. Ordained to travel the world on vacations disguised as "mission trips". Ordained by whom? Other men doing the same. Sort of like joining a club. They say ordained by God. Prove it! Who says they are ordained by God....They do! Ordained to confuse, dazzle and astound you with their knowledge of THE GREEK. Who cares. My Bible is in English. I don't care what the Greek says. Besides they don't get the Greek right either. They only spout the Greek in an attempt to impress you with what they THINK they know. Most of you don't know the Greek. They know you don't. They could be ordering Pizza and you wouldn't understand it. If they can't get the English over to you why would they think the Greek would matter? Most of the time a true Bible Believer knows more of the Bible than the preacher. But he has been to the seminary, don't you know. So what. You can discern a true preacher when you hear one. His spirit strives with yours. He usually is HUMBLE. Not a false humility, which can be detected fairly fast. But a genuine love for the Lord and love for His Word. And love for the PEOPLE. There are some out there somewhere. We had them in the past. But much of todays crop is sour.
i think you need to do all you can do to shut them down!! and all the bible beating people that belong to that church that look the other way when the church leaders has wronged someone dont worry your day is comeing too.... your ways are not leading people to Lord
Why is everyone so hard on Louis? Seriously.
August 13, 2009 10:10 AM
It comes from years of experience with him. I have been reading him since the OUTpost days. So, I am well aware of what we are dealing with.
Others pick up on it. Do you remember Eddy Haskell? Remember how he tried to snow the parents in how responsible and wise he was? I kind of think of Louis that way. He tries to come off as this neutral wise lawyer who is just passing the time analyzing the entire situation from his cubicle in Nashville.
But if you read him long enough, over time, you see he is really trying to guide thinking.
Some of us think he really works for or is a vendor of sorts for an SBC entity in Nashville.
I will say that he has come across more sarcastic on this blog than before. Getting a bit meaner,too.
But my guess is he wants Tom to talk about his lawsuit more. I have no problem with Tom linking to public documents, but I would not talk about it. Louis tends to excuse the charlatans.
Hey, if I "need a preacher" I can turn on the TV or radio or go online and listen to just about any "preacher" in the world. But if I need a "pastor", then I am in big trouble. They don't have one at FBC Jax. And ALL of them know it. Period.
Sure, there are many pastors in our city. Thank God for them. No blogs about them, or news articles either. Just faithful men serving the Lord. But this blog isn't about them, it is about Millionnaire Mac. He is really making those "godly" trustees and long time deacons look really really bad, and shallow. They stood with Mac when they should have stood for Jesus and now they have all been exposed. But the millions continue to flow...
Come quickly, Lord Jesus!
Anon:
I was talking with you only about your pronouncement that the Holy Spirit has left the SBC and that we should not give any money to the SBC.
I inquired as to whether you were a member in an SBC church, and you became unnecessarily defensive.
I agree with you on some of the behavior that you disagree with in SBC life.
I was just trying to understand where you were coming from - if you were a member of an SBC church etc.
I have read Revelation. I do not agree that any passage in Revelation would permit me to proclaim that the Holy Spirit has left a certain place.
Making those sort of judgments is not part of my Christian calling, and I don't care to do it.
And since I am a member of an SBC church it would be silly of me to encourage people not to give to the SBC.
As to the behavior, we have more in common than you might think.
Am glad that you don't even know what the CBF is.
Louis
Anon 10:10,
Not everyone is hard on me.
Just the Anon who believes he can tell where the Holy Spirit is and isn't, and Lydia.
But thanks for the support!
Louis
Lydia:
That is hilarious!
You haven't forgotten your moniker from Leave It to Beaver, have you?
Mrs. Mondello! (You remember Larry's mother?)
Even though we don't agree sometimes, I am glad that you deem me worth following and warning others about. It's not a bad consolation prize.
How did the lawsuit get back in here? I was talking about Anon's claiming to know about where the Holy Spirit's whereabouts with such confidence, that's all.
I do think that the Dog should post public documents like they did on Outpost during the other lawsuit. That was helpful for following what was going on.
But the strawman thing get's kind of old. I haven't ever met the Dog, don't know a thing about him, and don't want to talk to him or his lawyer about legal strategy and such. So I don't know why some folks on here can't distinguish between a request to publish public documents and the attorney/client sort of stuff that should remain private.
I would like to meet you one day. You are off by a country mile. I do not work for the SBC and am not a "vendor" or anything close to it. I don't even have a cubicle!
I do try to share my insights with others and questions that I have, as you and the rest of us do.
You must think I am pretty effective (you use the word "sly" a lot), hence your constant warnings to others, whom you must think are as dumb as potatoes.
Your often expressed concern gives me some comfort. Not that much. But some.
Hey, I liked your comments about Jimmy Carter on Wade's blog. Well done. You apology and/or qualification to the host looked like a complete surrender of your usual fiestiness, however.
Take care.
Louis
I am glad for Lydia's heads up about Louis. I can now recognize his writing style before scrolling down to the name. I'll say, "I bet that's Louis." And sometimes after only five paragraphs, I see I'm right.
Louis you are beginning to babble. There are others besides Lydia that find you annoying. You are like a pesky fly that keeps coming around annoying everyone. Most of the time, (not all), depending on the subject, and who else is commenting...I just skip over your comments. You are very transparent. It is VERY clear that you "carry water" for the big boys. We know you would love to see any "legal info" that WD would print. Anything to give more "fire power" to the lawsuit defendants. But WD is too smart to print anything that would hurt his case. Maybe I will just give you the nickname of the "sly fly". How's that.
Anon 1:35,
I am glad Lydia is able to help you out.
And your observation is a modern version of form criticism, I suppose.
Louis
Anon 9:16,
"Sly Fly" is kind of lame, really. You can do better. Also, seems silly if I am "Transparent."
Just don't make any pronouncements about the Holy Spirit, please.
Take care.
Got to get back to my water carrying!
I have conference call today with Dr. Patterson, Dr. Brunson, Marillio, FBC Jax's lawyer, Dr. Chapman, Dr. Rainer, Dr. Rankin, and the heads of all the other seminaries. I am going to share with them all of the legal secrets I have learned and expect to learn on this blog.
Louis
"I do think that the Dog should post public documents like they did on Outpost during the other lawsuit. That was helpful for following what was going on."
That is exactly what I am referring to. Your 'neutral' analysis of each document posted there.
(btw: I miss Todd. What a nice guy)
"But the strawman thing get's kind of old. I haven't ever met the Dog, don't know a thing about him, and don't want to talk to him or his lawyer about legal strategy and such. So I don't know why some folks on here can't distinguish between a request to publish public documents and the attorney/client sort of stuff that should remain private."
You are not made of straw, my friend. And what does knowing Tom have anything to do with analyzing documents? Facts are facts, right? The law is fair and balanced, right? Why not look up the public docs for yourself if you have such interest?
"I would like to meet you one day. You are off by a country mile. I do not work for the SBC and am not a "vendor" or anything close to it. I don't even have a cubicle!"
A Corner office with a real plant and a window?
"You must think I am pretty effective (you use the word "sly" a lot), hence your constant warnings to others, whom you must think are as dumb as potatoes."
I think you are very effective. All one has to do these days is say, I am a pastor or a lawyer, etc. and folks believe them.
Many here are not dumb as potatoes except the Mac followers, but it takes a while to figure you out from your comments. I am simply giving them a heads up.
"Your often expressed concern gives me some comfort. Not that much. But some."
Dittos on your 'compliments'.
"Hey, I liked your comments about Jimmy Carter on Wade's blog. Well done. You apology and/or qualification to the host looked like a complete surrender of your usual fiestiness, however."
Wade allowed me to comment as I pleased. I am not sure I remember an apology but maybe so. Debbie is sure mad, though, and took the rebukes over to Paula's blog.
But I stand firm about any other Jesus being affirmed except the one revealed in the Word. We have to draw the line. There is a move afoot for totalitarian niceness.
Sincerely yours,
Mrs. Mondello
"I have conference call today with Dr. Patterson, Dr. Brunson, Marillio, FBC Jax's lawyer, Dr. Chapman, Dr. Rainer, Dr. Rankin, and the heads of all the other seminaries. I am going to share with them all of the legal secrets I have learned and expect to learn on this blog."
There are no legal secrets here. That is not your charge. Your charge is to guide thinking about those documents and the lawsuits in general. Stay on task, man. You are doing PR.
Tell them hello and tell Rankin I get the impression his days are numbered when NAMB and IMB are merged.
Tell Mario that pedicures are for girlie men.
BTW: if you are ever in CC with the Golden Gate guy, tell him I am impressed. Iorg. He gets it. Remember when it came out about 6 figure portrait Patterson had done of himself for the seminary?
In contrast, Iorg had a picture blown up and framed for less than 600 bucks.
Then he tells us his faculty agreed to take on more classes for no more money to keep costs down.
We need more like him.
Lydia:
Believe it or not, you and I agree on the big stuff.
100% agreement on Iorg.
I have a window, desk, computer desk, bookcases, credenza, side table, 2 lamps and 2 side chairs that match the desk chair. Pretty traditional. No plant. I could have one, but it's just something to keep up with and worry about.
I have looked the docs up in the PACER system, but it makes more sense, I believe, if they are going to be a topic of discussion, that everyone should be able to read them. Not everyone has a PACER account with the federal courts. Posting them would give everyone access. I take it, then, that you don't really think that I coming to this site to get Dog's legal theories and such. Apparently, some people do, which makes no sense. But people believe what they believe and there's not much I can do about that.
Louis
I am NOT from fbc..not affiliated with any of these "fighters in the rign' but I know this..all of this is tragic..and it is a VERY poor testimony relative to ou rLord Jesus Christ. This "fight" you have, is bein gread by muslims, hindus, by atheists, by haters of Christ..and YOU have given them great "fuel for the fire." This is NOT the Christianity that I read of in Scripture..and I have to ask you all, "When is the last time you witnessed for Christ...enlisted to go to a foreign nation and minister..not for a luxury trip..but for months..or years?" YOU have made a VERY grave mistake and Imans are loving this. Indeed there IS a "falling away" in the last days, and YOU are proff of it. My heart is grieved, as my family has SUFFERED for the cause of Christ. we truly love Jesus Christ, and look to HIM as our Savior, God, Deliverer and best friend. We suffer, while you fight whine and gripe. SHAME on you all..Are you truly saved? These comments are NOT ones made by Christ-like people, but are filled with arrogance, hatred and anti-Christ comments. God forbid. One day YOU too will give an account to the Lord..right now, I belive you have hurt HIS cause, HIS heart, HIS people. There is a world , a needy wolrd, MUCH bigger than you fbc...GET right or HE will surley intervene..and HIS judgement will be swift and sure. Pride, gossip, arrogance, causing division is SIN, gross filthy sin. Souls will burn in hell..because of your pride, selfishness and sin. Focus on the Lord..do HIS will..apologise from all sides..forgive and forget. We who suffer pray fo ryou all.
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