I recommend watching this video of a presentation on "missional leadership", delivered I believe at a conference of pastors in Oklahoma.
He makes some very on-target comments on the trend of "superman" pastors that is destroying the modern church (start 6:45 mark), and the trend of the "clergification" of the church which hinders God's work, and the lowly view that many "clergy" have toward their lay people that they should "pay, pray, and get out of the way" for the real men of God to minister.
All relevant comments for Watchdog readers.
He also address the trend of the "cult of personality" amongst pastors today:
Says Ed: "....what pastors lead people to is a cult of personality. 'You can come because I'm great, I'm Superman, I'm here, come follow me, you can listen to me here, you can read my stuff here, you can meet me here, I'm everywhere, I'm kind of a big deal, people know me, I have many leather bound books.' A cult of personality leads ultimately to a fall of the cult of personality."
Ed is definitely stepping on some toes. Good for him. Guys like this give me just a glimmer of hope that there are some guys in the upper echelon of the SBC that get it.
Would love to hear your thoughts after listening to Ed.
Missional Leadership from Ed Stetzer on Vimeo.
38 comments:
Sat through a week of ministry-related/church-growth sessions with Ed last year. You'd probably disagree with some of what he says about how God grows the local church, but I'm glad for it if Ed spoke out against an "it's all about me" mentality among America's senior pastors--as it obviously isn't at all about them (e.g., all SBC congregations are under the leadership of their senior pastors--not that of their other staff members or lay leaders--and the SBC is a denomination in decline, now for 10+ years). During the sessions I sat through, Ed was real and he welcomed interaction with the group; only a few, like myself, asked many questions of him--but he was real, not offended, not a know-it-all, not like lots of pastors you can think of.
Probably, despite his position as president of LifeWay Research, Ed won't be reading your positive comments about him here--and he certainly won't be citing them in his resume; LifeWay's trustees wouldn't go for that.
Pay, pray and get out of the way, but first and foremost PAY!
I have also experienced the GET OUT OF THE WAY ....... you are not important enough to do anything, just GET OUT OF THE WAY!!! But don't forget to PAY!
This if very on target. I am opting out.
Watchdog - sadly this "superman" preacher and "pay, pray and get out of the way" is not just happening at the mega churches. Even smaller churches operate with this "clergification" idea that their staffs are "gifts to us from God", that by giving to them you are giving to God, that they deserve to be paid handsomely based on their many years of being a professional staff member, that they could actually do real ministry if only the sheep would give more money, that their goals are to fully fund the operations of the church as a priority over doing ministry, that men should take money and ministry away from their jobs, families and community and instead give time and money to them so they can hire more staff and give raises to staff and have a nicer building to meet in. And Jesus will say "I was hungry and you didn't feed me..."
Nope. No urgency to get out there and minister to the community. No heartfelt pleas to give so we can help the homeless. Nope. Just sacrifice and downsize your family budget so they can use those funds to have more staff, higher salaries and nicer buildings.
But I feel sorry for them. If I wanted that, there are churches within 5 miles that already have those things. Why should I give "God's money" to them so they can have it too. And ultimately, if I want a big time staff and buildings, I would go back downtown a couple of times each week for services.
So, I am convicted by God to fully fund my family first, and like the church, if I have enough left over, I will pay myself more handsomely since I also have worked for 30 years, and I will also upgrade my house and car, and then if any is left, I will give to the church. Just following what I am seeing them doing. And when I do get that extra to give "to God", it will go to ONLY those organizations that are actually doing the work of God.
Thanks for letting me vent. I hope my pastor reads this and recognizes himself and our church and reconsiders some of his plans. Not for my sake, but because I know he loves Jesus and wants to please HIM!
Watchdog,
Did you hear anything about a minister at Friendship Baptist there who sent inappropriate texts to someone in the church and the church voted to allow him to stay?? Sorry I have no more info than that. I Googled it but nothing came up. Wondering if there is anything being said locally.
gmommy - actually my wife did hear something on the news last night about a minister that was sending text messages to a teen girl that were inappropriate, but the church failed to discipline the minister. The church she said was "Friendship Baptist", but I can't find anything on any local news outlets here. Maybe someone else knows something.
Amen. I agree completely. I consider Ed a friend and believe that he will read these comments. I also believe that they will be appreciated by the leadership and trustees at Lifeway.
I would not belong to a church that has this mentality whether it was big or small. For those who do, I hope you can help change the culture at the church you attend.
Louis
Louis - glad you agree on this one. The problem, I am afraid, is that too many pastors will read this and think "yep, that's a problem, but not here at MY church." I hope that many pastors will read this article and watch the video and the Holy Spirit will tell them like the prophet Nathan told David "YOU ARE THAT MAN." But more importantly, even if the pastor's themselves are in denial, I hope their members will read this and wake up and say, "yes, this is exactly what I am seeing at MY church."
Great post, Dr. Dog.
Ask yourself how Stetzer can get by with saying such things as the President of one of our entities.
Sorry WD,I watched the video and at first glance saw a man fully into the PURPOSE DRIVEN MOVEMENT. A movement which is EXACTLY the cause that the SBC has been declining for the last ten years.
Ed talks about the supperman preachers wanting their members to pay, pray and get out of the way. In reality he wants the same thing. The PURPOSE DRIVEN MOVEMENT preaches that very thing. It is my way or the highway. Ed knows all about the PD signs but will not admit that the SBC is going that way in a hurry.
By the way did you notice that he did not quote out of the KJV.
I may be wrong but Ed is probably NEO EVANGELICAL like I believe is his good friend Elmer Towns.
Sorry WD,Ed may be right on many things but he has gone down the PD path. More sorrow ahead.
Look at FBCJAX. See if they are not PD. See if they haven't already told their members to get out of the way.
Even if he's a good guy, even if he's a friend, even if he correctly diagnoses the problem, you can still be in danger of lifting up a man and making him the object of adoration. Cults of personality often start by the lifting up of someone who diagnoses problems oh, so well. Even here, you have to be careful.
Gmommy I had one of my church members call me to tell they had heard this same story on the news but I have been unable to find any info on it!
I agree with Oct., 30 2:38 PM. Purpose Driven has inserted itself into every corner of the SBC, as well as other denominations. Lifeway has not been true to Bible Scripture as I know it. At least not the Bible I have grown up with. So Ed is Pres., of Lifeway, that is NOT a plus in my book. I am not a fan of Lifeway. When I see their material I discount and discard it!!! And have you ever noticed how so many preachers preach against exactly what they do or are? We have a lot of experience in that area at FBC. Sorry also WD, can't champion this one with you.
Here's your link, gmommy & Pastor Rod:
DCF confirms investigation into local church leader
LifeWay's hiring managers want to know what blogsites applicants blog at and/or read; Stetzer's probably would be OK, this one probably would not. Some regular blogger here apply for a job and let us know!
I agree with Oct., 30 2:38 PM. Purpose Driven has inserted itself into every corner of the SBC, as well as other denominations. Lifeway has not been true to Bible Scripture as I know it. At least not the Bible I have grown up with. So Ed is Pres., of Lifeway, that is NOT a plus in my book. I am not a fan of Lifeway. When I see their material I discount and discard it!!! And have you ever noticed how so many preachers preach against exactly what they do or are? We have a lot of experience in that area at FBC. Sorry also WD, can't champion this one with you.
October 31, 2009 8:38 AM
Funny how Setzer sells all these celebrity pastors books at Lifway including Osteen. It is about profit not truth.
Off Topic:
Not dreaming and No longer Quivering:
-----------------------------------
Adventures In Mercy [Molleth] > No Longer Quivering: Carnival Nov. 1-4th.
A blog (and forum) I’ve taken great interest in, since it’s inception, is No Longer Quivering. Here is what can happen when complementarianism goes “hard,” what can happen when you peek behind the pretty pictures of the “Biblical Patriarchy” movement.
...
Consider this your invitation to go enjoy the Carnival at No Longer Quivering. The blog will be full of little (true) stories from wives and daughters who lived through the patriarchy movement, and the forums (where discussion takes place) promise to be hopping, if you are a forum sort of person.
-----------------------------------
Quivering Duaghters > A Different Perpective: She is No Longer Quivering.
Over a few short months, a mother of seven from Nebraska has made headlines as she abandoned her Quiverfull life, launched a website and message board, inspired a play, and started writing a book based upon her experience. Scheduled to appear on an upcoming episode of the Joy Behar Show, Vyckie Garrison of No Longer Quivering is hosting a fun event November 1-4 designed to foster community and garner awareness of some of the painful aspects of fundamentalism. Featuring around-the-clock, live NLQ chat, this would be an excellent opportunity for any of you with questions or thoughts regarding Vyckie's experience as a Quiverfull mom, or to share your own! Stay for fun activities, games, and lots of cool prizes.
October 31, 2009 8:38 AM
I agree whole-heartedly. When I saw that the speaker was a Lifeway guy, I shut the video off. What THEY say has little value and really comes across as hot air to me. And what's with the expensive back ground? Why can't an SBC Anything just go up there and talk without all the fancy trappings. That tells me the message is vapid and they need the props.
Just about everything Lifeway puts out is childish. Especially their quarterly Bible studies - pure pablum!
So typical of you and gmommy trying to stir up dirt.
What a bunch of loose tongued women you are!
So typical of you and gmommy trying to stir up dirt.
What a bunch of loose tongued women you are!
October 31, 2009 11:39 PM
So, are you saying it did not happen? It is all a lie? A minister did not text lewd messages to a teen?
Anonymous said...
So typical of you and gmommy trying to stir up dirt.
What a bunch of loose tongued women you are!
October 31, 2009 11:39 PM
_______________________________
Get Real! Tell that to the "media journalist" who prints the "dirt material" for people (like us) to read - before going to print, the facts are proven and most certainly they don't come from the loose tongues of women (and men).
So typical of you and gmommy trying to stir up dirt.
What a bunch of loose tongued women you are!
October 31, 2009 11:39 PM
Sounds like a student of Mac's
Anon 11:39 Oct 31. Why are you so hard on women? You sound very angry that a woman has any opinion at all. You need to lighten up otherwise everyone will believe you to be bitter against women!!!
So typical of you and gmommy trying to stir up dirt.
What a bunch of loose tongued women you are!
Is that you, RM?
Just because dirt exists on other Christians doesn't mean you have to print it or share it. And yes, you loose tongued men (and women) should be ashamed. You seem to be titillated by the details and that's even scarier than what happened in the first place.
And is this a black or a white church? And yes, it does make a difference (unfortunately).
ANON October 30, 2:38, 8:38, 5:03
HOW VERY PERCEPTIVE.
WD, it appears that not all of God's children are sitting back and letting this PD movement go unchecked.
Many have called the PD movement DAMNABLE AND HERETICAL.
Think about it? Would so many of God's children be leaving these PD churches if the Holy Spirit was leading these PD preachers?
It is time to change back to what still works.
Preach Jesus and His grace.
Off Topic:
Grace and Truth to You [Pastor Wade Burleson] > Dorothy Patterson's Midnight Dinner With Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini
I was reading Cheryl Schatz's blog and came across a comment by Lydia regarding the official biography of Dorothy Patterson, wife of Dr. Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas. Lydia pointed out that Dorothy Patterson's biographical sketch reveals she shared "a midnight banquet with Yasser Arafat in one of Saddam Hussein's palaces." Incredulous, I went and read the offical biography for myself, which further revealed, "Dr. (Dorothy) Patterson has traveled to more than 75 countries; she met with Pope John Paul in his private apartment in the Vatican; she served as Chair for President Ronald Reagan’s Presidential Bible Committee and was received in the Oval Office; she has had coffee with former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in his Knesset office; she’s been the guest of Yaser Arafat at a midnight banquet in Saddam Hussein’s palace guest house in Baghdad. "
Just because dirt exists on other Christians doesn't mean you have to print it or share it. And yes, you loose tongued men (and women) should be ashamed.
November 1, 2009 5:01 PM
As a mother, I am thankful that the "secrets" have been put out to the public for me to be aware to protect my children.
I have witnessed my share of preachers having affairs, youth pastors having affairs, deacons molesting young people, all in reputable churches. Yes, you are right, it is scary and thankfully we live in a day and age where these so called godly leaders get CAUGHT, then do they confessed their apologies. Thank God, these decentful so called Christians can no longer hide - I will do my part in "sharing" the evilness they have done to protect the little ones, through word or print. Their deeds is not gossip, but truth!
Does anyone care that Mr.s Patterson met with the Pope and some terrorists? Only what's done for Christ will last. I would venture to say that when we get to Heaven, the witness of both Ruth and Shirley Lindsay will have a much larger impact, due to the souls that will be in Heaven because of their Godly HUMBLE lives and their WITNESS for the Savior.
I thought the Pattersons were against women teaching or using any influence over men. So if that is the case why did DR. Patterson (Dorothy) have any meetings with these terrorist, plus the Pope, Reagan, Begin and other world leaders. Another illustration of "do as I say, not as I do". To go further and widen the spectrum, I am not impressed with anything or anyone in large religious organizations , many use them as political platforms, controlled by groups of narcissist/elitest making a living off Churches who support them. A very excellent living it would appear. Does anyone know how many millionaire preachers, past and present, there are/were in "the ministry"? My opinion, from years of observation.
Just because dirt exists on other Christians doesn't mean you have to print it or share it. And yes, you loose tongued men (and women) should be ashamed. You seem to be titillated by the details and that's even scarier than what happened in the first place.
November 1, 2009 5:01 PM
You mean like John did in a letter to Gaius about Diotrephes for all the read for 2000 years?
Every parent has a right to know what happened in that church so they can know not to join there.
I am so very sorry you do not think enough of children and teens to do all you can to protect them. It is obvious that church does not really believe 1 Tim 3. That is important, too. To know how little they think of scripture.
Can't appreciate any brother a PD adherent; can't appreciate any brother a CR adherent; can't appreciate any brother a watchdog---who's left??
Some people blogging here really need to get a life!
Watch their stupid comments in response to this following, to see what I mean . . . ;-]
Some people blogging here really need to get a life!
Watch their stupid comments in response to this following, to see what I mean . . . ;-]
November 2, 2009 9:56 PM
Very Amusing! ;-} I love reading my morning Watchdog devotional. The above author would be Sooo surprised if some of us gave our real names and even more surprised to find that more than likely the majority of bloggers here are really not all that stupid, but have advanced college degrees and by the way, I don't mean the Honorary or Catalog college degree.
As for myself, I have a life - a really blessed life! Thanks for your comments - good reminder to stay a humble human being. You my friend, have a very mean spirit!
PD ADHERENT JUVENILE 9:56 PM: Your blog is very disjointed. Exactly what are you trying to say.
Anon 9:56 Thats why the Bible tells believers to TRY THE SPIRITS. There are good and there are bad spirits. You need to study your Bible seriously!!!
Anon 9:56. You criticize the bloggers who are going to disagree with you? Not everybody has their head in the sand.
Anon 9:56, can you explain the attributes of PD & CR from your advantage point? Maybe us who have less knowledge and experience could learn something that would lead us to a better life.
9:36: You got wrong "buddy", I am against PD and CR. That's one thing ruining churches today the other thing is celebrity preachers.
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