"There are probably some of you this morning who would, if you were honest, would say 'Pastor, I wish I were more interested in spiritual things than I am...Pastor, I wished I loved God more than I do. Frankly I don't love Him, I don't think about Him very often.' If that's true for you this morning, may I suggest to you: the greatest thing you can do for your spiritual health, would be to take a large chunk of your assets, and give them to this campaign. Just slice off a big hunk of 'em [as he slices with his hand, shown at left] and give them to this campaign." Robert Jeffress "The Treasure Principle", 4/11/10. [Click here to view video clip]. ----------------------------
What is going on in the Southern Baptist Convention? I mean let's get real. We have Ed Young, Jr. flying around in a leased jet that his church never knew about until a TV reporter exposed it. We have one of our premier, front-line apologists Ergun "Butch" Caner having been found to build his fame and fortune post 9/11 on lies to sell himself as a devout Muslim raised in Istanbul and trained to be a terrorist. And now we have Dr. Robert Jeffress at First Baptist Dallas telling his church that if they really want to get close to God, I mean if you really want to love God and start revival, well, its easy as pie!! Just slice off a big ole hunk of your assets and give them to his $130 million building program. Not to the poor and needy - not to the Cooperative Program - to the building program.
These are troubling times in the Southern Baptist Convention.
We are beginning to make the worst of the televangelists look, well, NORMAL!
As I continue to look at the proposed $130 million "Crystal Campus" at First Baptist Dallas, its not the enormity of the price tag that causes me concern. Its the fund-raising methods being used.
In his 4/11/10 sermon, Pastor Robert Jeffress offers the following advice to his church members:
Beware of Financial Advisors
While Jeffress is encouraging people to use a "tithe on your assets" as a starting place of how much to give to "the campaign", he also is cautioning people to beware of their financial planners who might tell them its not wise to give such a large gift. He says they may have selfish motives, since they "get a percentage many times of the assets under their control." To view the video clip of this, click here.
This is dangerous ground. According to Jeffress, Christians are to assume that financial advice is skewed because the financial advisor gets a cut of the assets (which they don't)? Maybe that is the way mega church pastors view their parishioners, as people with assets to tap into. Can't Jeffress see the hypocrisy in saying this? It is HIM who is after a percentage of the assets, to the tune of 10% or more - NOT THE FINANCIAL PLANNERS! I would say we should be more wary of financial advice from a mega church pastor who is obsessed with a $130 million dollar new campus, than I would be from an educated, trained, licensed financial planner.
Whoever it was that told Jeffress about their financial advisor cautioning them: it likely was very wise advice based on the person's debt to income ratio, their future earning potential, maybe they were telling the person that they won't be on track to retirement and need to instead increase contributions to their 401(k). Its scary when I see people standing up at FBC Dallas giving testimonies that they are taking retirement money or income and funneling it now to the church - reminds me of the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker days. If God is leading people in that direction, fine, but it seems like the leading might be coming more from the preacher and the church marketers and less from the Holy Spirit.
People of FBC Dallas, please, please, please: LISTEN TO YOUR FINANCIAL ADVISOR. In fact, whatever you do, don't give a sizeable gift UNTIL YOU DO talk to a licensed financial planner, one who does not have any ties whatsoever with your church, that can help you see the long-term consequences of your decision. Remember, what you do NOW can have adverse consequences not just on you, but your ability to obey God in the matter of being a generous giver in subsequent years.
Give a "Big Slice" of Your Assets to Get Back to God
As quoted at the top of this article, Jeffress is telling his people that the path to getting back to God, to restoring one's spiritual health, to igniting a revival in their church, is to give a significant portion of one's assets to "the campaign". "Just slice off a big hunk of 'em", he said while making the slicing motion with his hand. See the video. Its unbelievable.
Stop With the Consumerism Mentality
Jeffress is right to encourage Christians to avoid the consumerism philosophy of America. He says people don't need "a fifth pair of shoes", or a larger house...but can't he see the same argument applies to his church and this campaign? Why does he need to build a $130 million dollar campus when he already has one? Have they considered something more reasonable? While his parishioners CAN get by with fewer shoes and their current house, so CAN HIS CHURCH get by with their current buildings, or at least a more modest plan for growth. Can't he see that his entire vision - building this grand campus to attract modern worshipers downtown via beautiful buildings and a waterfall - is itself born out of the consumerism mentality that has a grip on our culture?
Giving to "The Campaign" Is "Storing Treasure in Heaven"
Jeffress never does make a valid argument of how giving to "the campaign" is equivalent to "storing treasures in heaven". Is it really? When we get to heaven, God is going to have a heavenly bank account where the money we gave to Jeffress' building program is there? I didn't know that when Jesus told us to "store treasure in heaven" that this meant writing checks to a mammoth building program in Dallas. Maybe some smarter than I can comment on what Jesus meant, but I'll take a wild guess and say Jesus wasn't referring to slicing off a hunk of one's assets and giving it to the building of a huge "Crystal Campus".
Frankly, I find his sermon in trying to convince his people to give a significant portion of their portfolio and savings, while creating doubts about financial advisor's advice, offensive, almost condescending. The only thing I can liken it to is one of the recruiting pitches that you get from an Amway rep in your home. They pull out all the charts, all the cliche's that you can see right through, to try to get you to sign on the dotted line so they can build their down-line. That is how this sermon comes across.
But at least Jeffress' is a gentleman in the pulpit, and he doesn't yell and scream and sweat with veins bulging from his neck. And he isn't demanding a million dollars in two weeks....but he does want $130 million in 156 weeks.
May 2nd is their "Move that Mountain" day or whatever they call it. If this aggressive marketing campaign results in the raising of the funds for this Crystal Campus, then more power to Robert Jeffress and First Dallas for pulling it off. If they're successful, church marketing experts should carefully study how they did it, because they are pulling out all the stops.
I just hope the good people at FBC Dallas WILL not be caught up in the pressure from the pulpit, the slick video and copy marketing pieces, and the peer pressure through testimonies, and WILL listen to their financial advisors and their family members who are not in the church.
Bottom line: Give as the Lord leads you, not as a pastor and their marketing team leads you, and then God will be glorified, Crystal Campus or no Crystal Campus.
These are troubling times in the Southern Baptist Convention.
We are beginning to make the worst of the televangelists look, well, NORMAL!
As I continue to look at the proposed $130 million "Crystal Campus" at First Baptist Dallas, its not the enormity of the price tag that causes me concern. Its the fund-raising methods being used.
In his 4/11/10 sermon, Pastor Robert Jeffress offers the following advice to his church members:
Beware of Financial Advisors
While Jeffress is encouraging people to use a "tithe on your assets" as a starting place of how much to give to "the campaign", he also is cautioning people to beware of their financial planners who might tell them its not wise to give such a large gift. He says they may have selfish motives, since they "get a percentage many times of the assets under their control." To view the video clip of this, click here.
This is dangerous ground. According to Jeffress, Christians are to assume that financial advice is skewed because the financial advisor gets a cut of the assets (which they don't)? Maybe that is the way mega church pastors view their parishioners, as people with assets to tap into. Can't Jeffress see the hypocrisy in saying this? It is HIM who is after a percentage of the assets, to the tune of 10% or more - NOT THE FINANCIAL PLANNERS! I would say we should be more wary of financial advice from a mega church pastor who is obsessed with a $130 million dollar new campus, than I would be from an educated, trained, licensed financial planner.
Whoever it was that told Jeffress about their financial advisor cautioning them: it likely was very wise advice based on the person's debt to income ratio, their future earning potential, maybe they were telling the person that they won't be on track to retirement and need to instead increase contributions to their 401(k). Its scary when I see people standing up at FBC Dallas giving testimonies that they are taking retirement money or income and funneling it now to the church - reminds me of the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker days. If God is leading people in that direction, fine, but it seems like the leading might be coming more from the preacher and the church marketers and less from the Holy Spirit.
People of FBC Dallas, please, please, please: LISTEN TO YOUR FINANCIAL ADVISOR. In fact, whatever you do, don't give a sizeable gift UNTIL YOU DO talk to a licensed financial planner, one who does not have any ties whatsoever with your church, that can help you see the long-term consequences of your decision. Remember, what you do NOW can have adverse consequences not just on you, but your ability to obey God in the matter of being a generous giver in subsequent years.
Give a "Big Slice" of Your Assets to Get Back to God
As quoted at the top of this article, Jeffress is telling his people that the path to getting back to God, to restoring one's spiritual health, to igniting a revival in their church, is to give a significant portion of one's assets to "the campaign". "Just slice off a big hunk of 'em", he said while making the slicing motion with his hand. See the video. Its unbelievable.
Stop With the Consumerism Mentality
Jeffress is right to encourage Christians to avoid the consumerism philosophy of America. He says people don't need "a fifth pair of shoes", or a larger house...but can't he see the same argument applies to his church and this campaign? Why does he need to build a $130 million dollar campus when he already has one? Have they considered something more reasonable? While his parishioners CAN get by with fewer shoes and their current house, so CAN HIS CHURCH get by with their current buildings, or at least a more modest plan for growth. Can't he see that his entire vision - building this grand campus to attract modern worshipers downtown via beautiful buildings and a waterfall - is itself born out of the consumerism mentality that has a grip on our culture?
Giving to "The Campaign" Is "Storing Treasure in Heaven"
Jeffress never does make a valid argument of how giving to "the campaign" is equivalent to "storing treasures in heaven". Is it really? When we get to heaven, God is going to have a heavenly bank account where the money we gave to Jeffress' building program is there? I didn't know that when Jesus told us to "store treasure in heaven" that this meant writing checks to a mammoth building program in Dallas. Maybe some smarter than I can comment on what Jesus meant, but I'll take a wild guess and say Jesus wasn't referring to slicing off a hunk of one's assets and giving it to the building of a huge "Crystal Campus".
Frankly, I find his sermon in trying to convince his people to give a significant portion of their portfolio and savings, while creating doubts about financial advisor's advice, offensive, almost condescending. The only thing I can liken it to is one of the recruiting pitches that you get from an Amway rep in your home. They pull out all the charts, all the cliche's that you can see right through, to try to get you to sign on the dotted line so they can build their down-line. That is how this sermon comes across.
But at least Jeffress' is a gentleman in the pulpit, and he doesn't yell and scream and sweat with veins bulging from his neck. And he isn't demanding a million dollars in two weeks....but he does want $130 million in 156 weeks.
May 2nd is their "Move that Mountain" day or whatever they call it. If this aggressive marketing campaign results in the raising of the funds for this Crystal Campus, then more power to Robert Jeffress and First Dallas for pulling it off. If they're successful, church marketing experts should carefully study how they did it, because they are pulling out all the stops.
I just hope the good people at FBC Dallas WILL not be caught up in the pressure from the pulpit, the slick video and copy marketing pieces, and the peer pressure through testimonies, and WILL listen to their financial advisors and their family members who are not in the church.
Bottom line: Give as the Lord leads you, not as a pastor and their marketing team leads you, and then God will be glorified, Crystal Campus or no Crystal Campus.
83 comments:
As one of my favorite bloggers says: Worse & Worse
Sermons like this is why people are leaving and becoming "home churched" . . .these preachers are desperate as they see their budgets shrinking - the money is not coming in because of the economy but because of their personal affluent lifestyles they flaunt. What a disgusting message!
And the latest marketing effort in this campaign? Pull out some 30-year-old videos of a deceased former pastor, take his words out of context, and put them behind renderings of the new facility to try to convince the membership that "Dr. Criswell speaks of new sanctuary":
http://www.firstdallas.org/criswell-newsanctuary/
What's interesting to me is not that Jeffress would use this tactic -- no surprise there -- but that he chose a clip where Criswell talks conditionally about building something new, referencing "if it so rises" or something along those lines. This demonstrates the difference in approaches between Criswell and Jeffress. Both wanted to build new buildings, but Criswell allowed that it may or may not happen, and didn't ram it down the members' throats with marketing campaigns.
It's also kind of funny that Jeffress uses this video/audio of Criswell in an attempt to apparently say to the members "if you won't do it because I'm telling you to, then do it because Criswell is telling you to." But if the members were going to "do it because Criswell told them to" then they would have done it when Criswell told them to do it 30 years ago! They weren't focused solely on a man then. Are they now? I guess we'll see on May 2.
Bottom line: Give as the Lord leads you, not as a pastor and their marketing team leads you,
Amen!
As the treasurer of a small church we did an addition to a 80 yr old building to add needed educational space,a fellowship hall & bathrooms
and encourged giving to avoid borrowing a large amount of money. The surprise to the pastor that was so excited about building was that we increased our expenses (it takes more to heat and cool 2 times as much space) and the giving went down for the next few years because the people had cashed cds, sold stock and timber and given of their assets to fund the building program. A very discouraged pastor left because he now found he was limited to smaller things and he had "big plans". The addition was a great blessing and asset to the congregation but he could not live with "the Law of unintended consequences". It will be interesting to watch FB Dallas and see what happens!
As one who left a mega after many years, I find a small church fellowship has much to offer. Not the ambiance of the megas; nor the latest and best in sound systems, I-max screens, singers and productions, but the pastor knows each in his flock by name and knows, cares and prays for the burdens in our lives. We worship and pray for one another,and do not sit there being entertained. Everyone from the young ones to the old ones are given an opportunity to serve instead of being served. There's no searching for a parking spot at the church which lessens the stress coming and going. We know others in the church and not just those in our little corner of the world in the church. I'm thinking the glory days of the megas may be coming to a close.
As far as the marketing programs in the church to convince people to give more and more, I am reminded of an old saying:
"A fool and his money are soon parted." If we don't seek God's wisdom over man's manipulations,
then we are a fool in God's eyes.
If God wants to build buildings, He doesn't need a marketing agency to accomplish the task.
"the greatest thing you can do for your spiritual health, would be to take a large chunk of your assets, and give them to this campaign. Just slice off a big hunk of 'em [as he slices with his hand, shown at left] and give them to this campaign."
this is very close to selling indulgences and it IS a works salvation.
Blogger of 12:52....Well said!! I, also, am of the opinion that mega pastors and churches are on the decline, in favor of smaller more CHRIST centered churches.
Maybe, we can get back to truly GOD CALLED preachers, that won't go into the ministry for the
"cushy" lifestyle, and the mega money. The only people that are still "fooled" by these "mega businesses" are those that want to ignore the truth. For whatever reason they continue to wear the blinders and defend the indefensible. But, the problem is, many are wise(ing) up and the money is getting tight because people are not giving.
I live in the Dallas area and typically listen to FBC on the radio Live Sunday mornings (not as much as I used to, though). What is interesting is Jeffress routinely tells the congregation that he is told by others in the leadership are constantly amazed that there is absolutely no negative comments about the new building program. Really? Who is he listening to? I hear from several sources that there are plenty who are against it.
Second thought, though. If there is no negativity then why in the world is he trying SO HARD to convince the members to give to the "Crystal Campus"?
And it was so offensive for Jeffress to use the clip of Dr. C to help sell the new building in particular the sanctuary. He then references Dr. Truett who also had a desire to build a new sanctuary as has every pastor since Dr. Criswell according to Dr. Jeffress. Absolutely no shame!
In Luke 12:32-34, Jesus said:
Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
There is a principle here that we will value the things we choose invest in and use money for. Jeffress appears to be using this idea as the basis for his suggestion to "take a large chunk of your assets, and give them to this campaign" as a means to increasing ones interesting in spiritual things and love for God.
It makes sense to say that if someone takes from their "treasure" and gives to something, they will have a greater emotional stake in what they are giving to. But there is a stark contrast between what Jesus gave as an example of laying up treasure in heaven and what Jeffress is encouraging. Jesus taught us to care for the needs of people with no regard to personal benefit ("give to the poor"); Jeffress is encouraging giving toward a material item (a church building) that the givers will personally benefit from (nice new facilities).
Following the principle to its logical conclusion, if people fork over a big hunk of cash toward a church building, they will feel more emotionally invested in that building. Not necessarily in spiritual things or in God or in people.
If your treasure is in a building, your heart will be in the building. Somehow I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind.
It simply amazes me after reading blogs for the last 4 years, listening to the speeches and sermons of our SBC leaders and pastors, reading/listening to guys like Tim Rogers and Ergun Caner and of course, this post with audio...how anyone but the very blind cannot see the SBC is spiritually dead.
Exposure is not bringing repentance..it is bringing bolder sin and hardening hearts. It is literally leading folks to more factions and warfare to protect their turf.
I have to wonder what it would take to get people to stop funding this cesspool of fake.
Please, come out of her! It might be the only way the leaders/pastors can get saved!
God uses the weak to shame the strong.
Saved people are NOT like this for years and years. Check it out. It is right in the Word.
I recall clipping coupons (saved souls) as an expression by Dr Lindsay Sr. I suggest that more emphasis should be on salvation rather than erecting more buildings which only gather more dust like the other buildings around these campuses!!!
Those GUILT sermons get the weak minded every time.
It reminds me of the preaching and begging the Georgia Baptist does with its theme of making sure "THE G B C" is remembered in someone's will and in giving them a "financial reward" for being Baptist after they die! They have gone into churches and taught members for years how to plan for this with the Sr Adult crowds.
It is the Southern Baptist way, push guilt - makem feel guilty about an issue, and bam....instant results. They know how to manipulate the masses because they do not want to do anything that may divert them from going through the heavenly gate. Most SR Adults still believe these deceivers are of GOD.
But those of us who have common sense can see right through this kind of garbage.
Remember that over 70% of those who now attend Baptist churches are over the age of 60.
The only difference is, it is NOT their GRANDMA'S church.
All they need now for those Baptist garbage messages is a HUGE garbage can - and I ain't no garbage can for them to use!
Right Robert, Wayne, Mike, Gerald.......all you G B C good ole boys :)
Glad I woke up......thanks Mikey
Get closer to God: "Just slice off a big hunk of your persoanl assets and give to the campaign."
Is this the same as:
LED ZEPPELIN "and she's buying a stairway to heaven."
I always thought getting closer to God was "Just as I am without one plea......
My pop told me way back when I was a youngin' - back when dad's still told the truth - "Son, always follow the money. When you want to know the truth about anything, just follow the money."
These folks are just joining the national leadership in government and business, WD. They are participating in the on-going looting and destruction of the middle-class.
Politicians, banksters, leaders of the "too big to fails," and the vast majority of well-known preachers - all are looting. The government simply serves as bagman and these preachers help pacify the sheep while they sheer them. They won't stop until we are serfs and the plutarchs can control the use and distribution of everything.
Ho-hum. Walmart has a big screen on sale.
At FBCD, many of us would like to know what Robert's personal sacrifice is going to be. I was very disturbed on Sunday when I heard the family with young children say they were going to invest their retirement in the new building.
If Robert is so sure this building program is God's will, why is he still selling it. Why not just sit back and wait to see what God will do.
Again, we're being asked to give up another week of Bible study for the "program". Not happy about that. Our class is thinking about meeting off campus to do what we do every Sunday . . . study God's Word.
OT Question.
Dr. Dog,
Does the visitor count on your page show unique visitors or all hits? I wish it was growing faster. You do a good job.
Dr. Fill - I don't know...I think it counts all hits, not unique ones...and it tracks "page views".
He should change his last name to Tilton.
Hey Dog,
No, I'm not greedy. Not at all.
Signed,
Robert Tilton ERRRRR Jefress
it counts new hits, not repeat hits
Robert Tilton just calls for money and it cometh!
Sitemeter counts little differently ...
Tips for comparing Site Meter statistics to other tracking systems.
The definition of a visit (or visitor) on one system, may not necessarily be the same thing as on another system. Site Meter's definition is "a series of page views by one person with no more than 30 minutes in between page views". 30 minutes is the "session" length timeout. The "session" length timeout is the amount of time that Site Meter waits for another page view from a visitors before it assumes they've left the site and are not coming back for a good while.
Yes, I think Jeffress is right. I am going to slice of a big hunk of my assets.
On May 2nd, I'm loading up my pick-up truck, and hauling down to the church the following:
- all of my stinking pairs of shoes out in the garage that I haven't worn for the past year
- my worn out couch that finally needs to be replaced
- I have an old lawnmower in the shed that with a few adjustments, might be able to start
- I have some paint left over from my house painting project this winter...off white semi gloss...it needs to be thinned, but otherwise is still usable.
- I have some old pants that I've been holding on to waiting for me to lose 25 pounds...but I think I'll give them to the Lord
- I have a 94 Olds that has 175,000 miles and new floor mats and its just been washed...it needs a new battery but I can tow it down to the church parking garage Saturday night
- I have some plants a package of Snickers
And a variety of other "assets" that I think I can give to the Lord.
I think if we all chip in we can get to the $130 million mark by the year 2040.
Anon 7:51. You can't be serious. Most of these churches desire "ready cash" things like cash, bonds, stocks, diamond rings, newer cars and trucks, things that can be converted to cash readily even land and buildings. Your donations would not be acceptable even though they are ASSETS!!
Also, lets please not use the Lords name so cavalierly. We can criticize each other, even use parody, but please lets remember when we refer to God, Jesus, the Lord we are talking about our Holy Savior. He deserves respect. I know no disrespect is meant, but, it can slip through sometimes. Lets all please remember who THE LORD is. Thanks. Blessings to all.
If you've been following , this sight has just crossed into the top 200,000 in the US
Web Tracker Site
Some ranking comparisons
firstdallas.org
43,045 A BIG jump in the last month, with over half of the traffic coming from Indonesia. Whats that all about?
kerussocharis.blogspot.com
179,418
fbcjax.com
482,047
Bellevue.org
542,860
OH PLEAAAASE
The only reason Criswell did not do the same thing is that he decided to scam the old women around the church out of their cash to build a school with his name on it to make sure his name and legacy endured into the future.
Prior to that, he just built it with the help of a couple of rich widows and then told the church about it.
Slam Robert all you want to but don't try and make Criswell into a hero. He was the king of entitled Mega Pastors before the term even existed.
Anonymous said...
"OH PLEAAAASE"
Your NOT saying that these preachers are just trying to seperate money from rich widows?
POP
To me, its less offensive to raise the money privately and then announce that the money has been raised and the plan is X, than to announce the plan is X and then engage in a full-on marketing campaign to convince people to give the money. So while Criswell certainly built quite a campus, he never engaged in the bullying of the membership or manipulation of the membership like has been seen under Mac and Robert.
I guess my point is that the pill of a new building is a lot easier to swallow when it is simultaneously announced that the money is in hand to build it. Plus, Criswell never proposed something as extravagent or over the top as the $130 million new campus.
I guess they all do but my point really was the Criswell took it to a extreme. He had a way of getting the rich widows to pay his bills and build his buildings. The deacons would say no and he would go behind their backs and raise the money from names like Hunt and Slaughter...
OH PLEAAAAASE
OP -
True. But my point is that going to a few well-off families to raise the money is much less offensive and easier to be "OK" with than the marketing campaign currently taking place. I have much less of a problem with a couple of well-off widows being asked to give a percentage of their net worth than with hundreds of not-as-well-off families being asked to give up some of their retirement savings, educational savings, etc. Big difference there.
In any event, the point isn't whether Criswell did things right or wrong. It's that the way Jeffress has handled this is offensive and insulting -- especially dragging out the video of Criswell and taking the words out of context, as if that would convince those opposed that they should get on board. Does Jeffress honestly think that those opposed are so shallow in their reasons for opposition that out of context video clips will convince them they are wrong? Talk about being out of touch...
Don't be too hard on Jeffress over the videos. This is the work of a church marketing guru. Their church marketers probably put together a comprehensive marketing plan for the month of April, they laid it all out, week by week. They have scripted the catch phrases to use each week, things like "the largest give you've ever given", "make a gift of a lifetime", a "gift that you'll be eternally glad you gave", etc. Gee, Jeffress even made the congregation recite some of them the last few weeks. It reminds me of the scene in "Yes Man" when Jim Carey went to the "Yes" convention. :)
The mega church pastors love to trot out the video and audio of the previous pastors when it comes time to raising money. The church marketers did it at FBC Jax with Mac, where during stewardship emphasis they would convince everyone to fork over 10% as a biblical mandate, based on clips of Homer Sr. and Jr.
But at the same time, Mac continually raked the church over the coals about "living in the past" his first few years, but he didn't hesitate to reach back into the past when he needed some help from the deceased pastors to manipulate the sheep.
It really is a sight to behold, these megas in action.
I feel sorry for guys like Messer and whoever followed Gilyard at Shiloh...they have no past to refer to, they just have to stay mum and be sure NOT to refer to the previous scoundrel.
I don't get it. As far as I can tell from others comments, churches are not getting "larger", they have lost many in membership. So what's up with all the "building" programs. Even if facilities are older, they still function. Today's economy does not warrant a building boom for churches. But, preachers don't care about "your" future whether you have enough money to pay for the taxes coming your way, your medical bills that are going to be staggering, or your retirement days. If you don't want to eat dog food, hold on to your money. God doesn't tell you to be stupid. How do we know that God wants all of this building going on? My bible teaches helping the down trodden and the hurting of this world. I think (my opinion) God would not approve of this direction churches are going in. After all we are in the latter days. So why keep building for an ineffective church, the Laodicean church. When you are "hurting" financially don't look for help from the preachers/churches. THEY DON'T HELP THE NEEDY NOW!!! Besides most of this building isn't necessary. FBCJAX is currently downsizing it's auditorium. Supposed to be making classrooms for the elderly. So, why didn't they do that before now. Eighteen years later, they decide to do something for the elderly. Attendance is down, so make the auditorium smaller, so no one will notice. Attendance started declining when Lindsay died. End of the "real preachers". Most of the preachers I have run into today are very cold, indifferent, and self-centered, they don't seem interested in people, just what they can get out of it. If someone is treated badly in a church, they sweep it under the carpet. They don't ever apologize for anything, nor do they try to "right" the matter. Sad, but that's what I see. My opinion.
WD -
I don't doubt what you say. Much of this is clearly the action of a marketing firm. But I do fault Jeffress -- he hired them, he allows their catch phrases to be used, he has followed the marketing plan each week and month, etc.
And don't be too sure he hasn't come up with at least some of the ideas behind this campaign on his own. He's a marketer too, and has been for years. You don't get a national TV program as a pastor from Wichita Falls, Texas, without at least a little bit of skill in the self-promotion department.
Don't be too hard on Jeffress over the videos. This is the work of a church marketing guru. Their church marketers probably put together a comprehensive marketing plan for the month of April, they laid it all out, week by week.
WD-
Yes, a marketing firm is hard at work for FBCD, but Jeffress is more than willing to use their videos with a broad smile across his face! I'm not willing to give Jeffress a pass.
"But at the same time, Mac continually raked the church over the coals about "living in the past" his first few years, but he didn't hesitate to reach back into the past when he needed some help from the deceased pastors to manipulate the sheep."
Hmmm! Sounds like a carbon copy of the present pastor of a certain mega I know. Wonder if they have the same script writer?
"I don't get it. As far as I can tell from others comments, churches are not getting "larger", they have lost many in membership. So what's up with all the "building" programs."
April 21, 1:28 PM: The answer is very simple. PRIDE. The new pastor wants to make his mark. He's not content to build spiritually on the shoulders of the man he's replacing. He feels threatened by the former pastor's legacy (I'm speaking of megas) so quickly tries to erase it as much as possible to build his own legacy.
New buildings along with new programs are the best way to do it. It's all about him and his legacy and that equates to PRIDE.
God says He resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Pride tends to set up resistance from other individuals also UNLESS they have a personal stake in the pastor's plans. There are people on staff who fear losing their jobs if they make waves. There are laymen in the church who have positions of authority and social status within the church that they do not want to give up. These go along with the program to get along. And then there are the young, immature Christians who want to please the Lord and feel that if they question anything the pastor or his staff presents, they are defying the Lord and they do not want to be guilty of that. End of story.
From what I’ve heard, I think a majority of the members of First Dallas truly believe this new building will help them minister more effectively in the Dallas area. It seems they are thankful to have a pastor that is working hard to make it happen
There are people on staff who fear losing their jobs if they make waves. There are laymen in the church who have positions of authority and social status within the church that they do not want to give up. These go along with the program to get along. And then there are the young, immature Christians who want to please the Lord and feel that if they question anything the pastor or his staff presents, they are defying the Lord and they do not want to be guilty of that. End of story.
April 21, 2010 4:59 PM
_________________________________
Ooops, you forgot to include all the Politicians (in Jacksonville)
who attend because of the number of votes they are guaranteed to receive - most noticible is how faithful their attendance is whenever it's election time. :>)
FBCD could have moved out of downtown many years ago but chose to stay there. Many then thought that was a bad idea. Downtown was dying,the buildings were aging and no one wanted to come back down there after work or on weekends. West End had a few years of thrills but was not offering the gospel just beers, drunkenness and the like.
Uptown is now in full swing and there are more people to reach, closer to us than ever before. Young, hip, financially stable and in need of Jesus.
Church people need to realize that unchurched people are not looking for an ancient looking relic but something fresh and welcoming.
I for one am glad the new project is being pushed. In any church, with any new thing, people are disgruntled and people are glad. Just because some think this is not of God does not make it so. I believe Dr. J believes this is of God. I can see it being attractive and drawing.
Those who don't like it ought to go where they can support the vision and progress. Those who want it, will remain and push on. Why all the bad mouthing of those who believe in this? What is it costing anyone who is not giving to it?
I thought your cropping of Dr. J's sermon was in poor taste.
Context is important. Personal agendas are not.
From what I’ve heard, I think a majority of the members of First Dallas truly believe this new building will help them minister more effectively in the Dallas area. It seems they are thankful to have a pastor that is working hard to make it happen
April 21, 2010 5:39 PM
How does a new fancy building help minister effectively? If the lost are impressed enough with our buildings they might like our Jesus, too?
Campaign: Sounds like something a politician would say.
Anon 7:51. You can't be serious.
Are you serious there was any doubt?
Sermon archive, if you want to hear more than just clips. It would probably be good for everyone here who has any interest in what's going on at FBCD to listen to everything in context.
http://www.firstdallas.org/home/viewlisten-to-services/listen-to-sermon-archives/
From what I’ve heard, I think a majority of the members of First Dallas truly believe this new building will help them minister more effectively in the Dallas area. It seems they are thankful to have a pastor that is working hard to make it happen
April 21, 2010 5:39 PM
___________________________________
I wonder what the majority of the widows, orphans, poor, hungry and naked believe about it?
Anon 6:25 - I agree, context is good. I encourage people to listen to the entire sermon. I don't think it gets any better however. The message of the sermon was that by giving large portions of your assets to the "campaign", you are "storing treasures in heaven", and that there is a heavenly bank account where the money you give to the "campaign" will be captured and earn interest for you when you get to heaven.
The summary of Jeffress' message was as shown on the clip: if you are materialistic, if you are far from God, if you don't love God anymore, the BEST thing you can do is to lop off a chunk of your assets and give them to the campaign.
My clip is "poor taste" you say? I say what Jefress said about lopping off a portion of your assets to get close to God again is in extremely poor taste, to say the least.
I don't want to discourage anyone from giving as the Lord leads to the "campaign"....but I hope no one will do so without consulting a financial planner that has no ties whatsoever to FBC Dallas.
"Church people need to realize that unchurched people are not looking for an ancient looking relic but something fresh and welcoming."
April 21, 6:25 PM:
The Holy Spirit is not limited to
new buildings and lots of ambiance.
The church I attend is in a rented facility that is 90 yrs. old. It is "fresh and welcoming" because of the love of the pastor and people, and thus drawing young,
"financially stable" adults.
Anon 4/21 6:25 said."Uptown is now in full swing and there are more people to reach, closer to us than ever before. Young, hip, financially stable and in need of Jesus."
I don't konw if you were around when we built the new Criswell Center but those are the same type of people we were told that would be attracted to that new facility if we built it. It would have new, modern classrooms, state of the art sound system, lighting, smoke machines, etc in the Center Stage worship center. Yet have you checked the numbers lately attending the contemporary service in Center Stage? Down dramatically since it first started being used before Jeffress came. Down so much in fact that they have started placing black curtains around the back of the lower level to make the room "appear" smaller so that it doesn't seem so empty with the 150 or so attending that service.
So if a $48 million facility won't attract them, you think a $130 million facility is going to do the trick??? That's a big gamble. Yet Jeffress is encouraging people to make a "once in a lifetime sacrifice" by giving up 10% your assetts, donating your 401k savings, putting off buying a house, or downsizing your house.
Ditto to everything 9:04a.m. just said. The "we have do to this to reach Uptown people" argument didn't pan out as advertised. Why would the church members expect a different result this time around?
I would add -- are we really supposed to focus on the "young, hip, financially stable"? Imagine what would happen if FBCD put $130 million into fixing up schools and setting up food pantries in south Dallas or west Dallas? What an opportuntity to transform a city and go out and reach people and touch lives, rather than merely building with a hope of attracting the "young, hip, and finacially stable."
Christ wasn't about attracting the rich -- he simply changed lives; the crowds followed. And when the rich wanted to follow Christ told them to give their riches to the poor, then to come and follow. Not to give their riches to Him so that He could build something that would attract more people like the rich young ruler...
'The Holy Spirit is not limited to
new buildings and lots of ambiance.
The church I attend is in a rented facility that is 90 yrs. old. It is "fresh and welcoming" because of the love of the pastor and people, and thus drawing young, "financially stable" adults.
April 22, 2010 7:10 AM"
Good to hear your church is reaching young adults. Are they unchurched people or rechurched people?
What is your church doing besides sitting there that is reaching them?
Do you believe it is the building that is attracting them? Or something else?
I would be the last person to limit the Holy Spirit, IMPO. But scripture does teach we are to be about the fathers business. We are not just called to sit there and wait for them to come to us. I would say the Holy Spirit will work within the plan set by Himself (God) and not outside that plan.
There has always been people at FBCD who wanted to grow and involved themselves in such work. there has always been members who want to get what they can and do nothing, also. There are a few in between. I would imagine this is true in most churches.
One of the things that continue to hurt is at FBCD is the constant public slander and criticism by fellow Christians. We are killing ourselves in a way it no longer hurts the church we attend but we have many who go after any church they disagree with. People are watching and not only do some leave, many do not come because of the junk being focused on. I think there is a fresh and exciting "J"esus we should be talking about and focusing on. The world needs to know what we love, not what we hate.
How do the people of Dallas feel about this stuff?
To The Glory of Whom?
Blog
Blog
Or how about this pulled youtube video that is now on
how Sex is like a Ipod?
Somehow Jesus is AOL
The world needs to know what we love. Agreed. And the world sees that we love "stuff" and comfort and self just as much as they do.
Does Robert realize that if his argument about materialism (house size, number of pairs of shoes, 10 year old car that runs okay) is carried it its logical conclusion it undermines his ultimate desire to build the Crystal Cathedral Dallas.
For years the people of FBC were labeled as "stuck in the past" when, in reality, they were "stuck without pastoral leadership". O.S. could have been a good pastor if he'd stayed longer. Other than that, they've been essentially shepherdless for nearly 20 years. On one hand, I COMMEND THEM FOR FOLLOWING THEIR PASTOR'S LEAD as it shows that they aren't nearly so stuck in the past as their detractors would have people believe. But on the other hand, I am heartbroken that they're following an aging boomer down a path of excess that won't make any difference in the spiritual health of Dallas, Uptown or otherwise.
So can we please stop using "Reach" language? This isn't about "reaching" anybody. It's about "attracting" a certain kind of person to the church.
I can't decide if this is Jefress' way of saying, "I'll show you" to the kids who picked on him growing up, or if he's just an alpha male off the charts. I suspect a little bit of both.
The real test for FBCD will be upon completion and what they do with it.
There has been alot of critism around how FBCD spends His money. How many churches have Homeless Shelters? Pregnancy Centers? At one time the sun never went down on a FBCD missionary.
The big question most members had to ask themselves was is it God's will for this church to die or grow. Not a retorical question, there are plenty of churches in the area and many of us have thought for a long time that FBCD's life was coming to a end and that would be OK. However, I now believe this is God's will and not just because of Robert's desires. But because we sought and received the answer from God. Many of us are not always fond of the money raising methods we are using, I too cringe at some of the statements being made but God is bigger than that and if He chooses to bless us inspite of ourselves so be it.
I too cringe at some of the statements being made but God is bigger than that and if He chooses to bless us inspite of ourselves so be it.
This kind of attitude is akin so excusing sin just because God forgives it. Just because God is bigger than man's desires and methods doesn't justify man's desires and methods.
"I am heartbroken that they're following an aging boomer down a path of excess that won't make any difference in the spiritual health of Dallas, Uptown or otherwise."
Is this a voice of a prophet? God? Naysayer? Well wisher? Idealist? Rationalist? Faithful servant?
The best sermons at FBCJ were held in the Hobson, years ago. Its not the buildings that count, but what is going on inside them. It is really easy today to draw a crowd but what is the purpose and does it glorify God or man is the question.
"Ditto to everything 9:04a.m. just said. The "we have do to this to reach Uptown people" argument didn't pan out as advertised. Why would the church members expect a different result this time around?
I would add -- are we really supposed to focus on the "young, hip, financially stable"? Imagine what would happen if FBCD put $130 million into fixing up schools and setting up food pantries in south Dallas or west Dallas? What an opportuntity to transform a city and go out and reach people and touch lives, rather than merely building with a hope of attracting the "young, hip, and finacially stable."
Christ wasn't about attracting the rich -- he simply changed lives; the crowds followed. And when the rich wanted to follow Christ told them to give their riches to the poor, then to come and follow. Not to give their riches to Him so that He could build something that would attract more people like the rich young ruler...
April 22, 2010 9:32 AM"
It is obvious I did not make my point well. The closest new residences to FBCD are in Uptown. Turtle Creek, Lakewood and a few other communities have been saturated with visits and other churches int heir midst. Uptown is the newest community of people living near the church. Those who live their are young, hip and financially stable. This is not a knock but a point of fact.
I know \Fellowship Church is right on their doorstep and they will reach some but I truly believe there is many who are looking for what FBCD offers. I am hoping we saturate that area, over and over again, not for the sake of the demographic make-up but for the lost souls who live there.
A lot of ministries could be started with 130 million, no argument but the question remains... Is God asking FBCD to build? I think so. If you don't, that's OK with me but for those who don't think so to characterize this as wrong just does not make sense.
If you want the other ministries you list to be helped, then I ask is God laying these on your heart to help or are you just using them as a weapon to make your personal point?
No one is personally criticizing you for how you spend your money or give (or not give) to any campaign.
The way Dr. J challenged the people should be acceptable in the light of such an endeavor.
Several comments have referred to a homeless shelter, yet I'm under the distinct impression that Robert had divested the church of the Dallas Life Foundation about the same time as Criswell College, KCBI, and the mission chapels.
Did he not? Could someone clarify?
I'm glad to know he hasn't divested the church of the Pregnancy Center.
To anon at 11:22.
A building can help attract a certain kind of people. A building can't change a life. It doesn't take a prophet, just a Berean.
"This kind of attitude is akin so excusing sin just because God forgives it. Just because God is bigger than man's desires and methods doesn't justify man's desires and methods."
I disagree, just because we don't like it I will let God sort out wether or not it is sinful. I know Robert well enough to know this is not about him at all and he is doing what he believes is right. Approaches can be distasteful but I think we need to be careful calling it a sin. Alot of people have posted how this can not be God's will also. Some pretty elaborate temples were built and the people's money paid for it. There are examples for us to follow but there is not absolute rule book on how to approach this.
Don't take me wrong, I welcome the debates around these issues and understand why some of the folks out there have their opinions, but there have been many distasteful things said by WD and everyone else also. It sometimes seems the pot is calling the kettle black.
To 12:17 --
Fair enough. Let's not call it "sin" because you are right; we are all sinners and therefore it is the pot calling the kettle black. Fine.
I guess many of us question the motives because it seems so extravagent and unnecessary. I'm not saying the Burt, CEB, Hunt etc. buildings are not in desperate need of replacement. I just think it could be done more economically. Sell off some of the property (not all), take that money combined with what has already been given and build adequate facilities. A church running 3500/week does not require the square footage that the proposed campus contains. Take the money that is being paid to the marketing firm and hire a logistics consultant to recommend more economic use of existing facilities. It just seems that the scale, in terms of quantity (sq ft) and quality (extravagence) is unnecessary.
Can a private organization build however big and fancy of a building they want? Of course. I have no problem with a country club doing that or a resort or whatever. But the church has a higher calling, and it seems like $130 million would have a much greater impact for the Gospel if put to use differently.
Anon 1:14pm A church running 3500/week does not require the square footage... "
The actual numbers for all three worship services run in 1,800 to 2,200 range. Which makes your observation even more pertinent. I agree with your comments.
"Can a private organization build however big and fancy of a building they want? Of course. I have no problem with a country club doing that or a resort or whatever."
I need for private organizations to build these things so I have a place to go and relax with all the extra money I now have from not tithing. We need places like this to spend our money, not on a church building or salaries for people who don't work for a living.
"The actual numbers for all three worship services run in 1,800 to 2,200 range. Which makes your observation even more pertinent. I agree with your comments."
I don't think a building should be built for only the people who come each week but for the larger vision God gives for His people to reach.
How big of a vision do you think God could have for we supportive people at FBCD?
Anonymous said...
April 22, 9:34 AM:
"Good to hear your church is reaching young adults. Are they unchurched people or rechurched people?"
Both.
"What is your church doing besides sitting there that is reaching them?"
Reaching out on a one to one basis, inviting them to join us.
And the Lord continues to add to the church.
"Do you believe it is the building that is attracting them? Or something else?"
Could hardly be the building since it is a 90 year old relic, as you would call it. The attraction is not the building but what's inside the building: a pastor and people who show them love, no entertainment - just pure worship, and good "meaty" messages from the Word of God. That'll do it every time.
To 1:52 --
Wow -- didn't know it had dwindled that low. I'm guessing its a little more than that on a weekly basis, adding 3 Sunday AM, 1 Sunday PM, 1 Wednesday PM, plus various small Bible studies, etc. In any event, the 3500 is probably generous.
But watch for this: soon after the new facility opens, Jeffress decides to go from 3 Sunday AM services to 2. This would allow the new worship center to appear to be more full (thus, "necessary") without actually adding any more attenders.
Used to be that churches added services because it was more economical than adding space... now economics are out the window, and they add space and reduce services to justify it!
"Church people need to realize that unchurched people are not looking for an ancient looking relic but something fresh and welcoming."
Note the tone and verbage used in the entire comment. This person, because they are biblically ignorant, has been schooled in the transitioning the church movement. (They would not know this)
Note the focus on 'unchurched'. Is the great commission really about getting the 'unchurched' in church?
Why "unchurched"? Because this is about growing the church in numbers. Note how the 'gospel' and folks being saved INTO a Body of Christ is NOT the focus.
The church is not for unbelievers. It is not even a place for folks to come and get saved. GASP!!!
It can happen that way but that is not the NT model. It is an assembly of believers. Some are new and some are not. But all are believers. Unbelievers are not turned away but neither are they purposely invited to swell the numbers.
Listen closely to these folks and the words and reasoning they use and you will see the footprint of Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Billy Hybels, Dan Southerland, and all the others who focus on building fancy cathedrals of nickels and noses.
These folks in these churches are LOST. They have no clue what the Gospel really is about. And I include the charlatan pastor who twists scripture to get his big enterprise.
"One of the things that continue to hurt is at FBCD is the constant public slander and criticism by fellow Christians. We are killing ourselves in a way it no longer hurts the church we attend but we have many who go after any church they disagree with. People are watching and not only do some leave, many do not come because of the junk being focused on. I think there is a fresh and exciting "J"esus we should be talking about and focusing on. The world needs to know what we love, not what we hate"
They already know. You love big fancy buildings and other people's money.
That is why we rebuke you and we want the world to know we rebuke what you are doing and that is it NOT of Christ.
"I guess many of us question the motives because it seems so extravagent and unnecessary. I'm not saying the Burt, CEB, Hunt etc. buildings are not in desperate need of replacement. I just think it could be done more economically."
There were some other designs considered but the construction we are using is considered the best balance between cost and quality. I heard this from a outside architect that had nothing to do with the church.
"Sell off some of the property (not all), take that money combined with what has already been given and build adequate facilities."
It has been considered and may still be a part of the plan however when you consider the space needed for the school you only have one building we could sell.
The plan is to build based on what is committed by the entire church. Yes we have raised half of it from a few but everyone deserves the opportunity to give, no one is forced. As I said earlier, I am not into the approach and believe we would get real close without all the hoop-la.
"A church running 3500/week does not require the square footage that the proposed campus contains."
The plan is not to build based on 3,500, that kind of defeats the purpose. Every church growth and church builder has predicted the the attendance will reach between 15,000 and 25,000 once this is built. Of course if we hit that we would be building again, I can not recall but I think the new sanctuary will seat 5,000. We can all doubt this and only time will tell if we actually do that. I do know we looked at some smaller foot prints etc. but again bang for the buck, it just was not that much less. I also think churches with multiple morning services really need to consider expanding if their reason is space for two reasons. Preaching is a tough gig and asking Robert to preach 4 times every Sunday will age him quickly and I believe you need the entire church to be able to worship together in one place at least part of the time.
"Take the money that is being paid to the marketing firm and hire a logistics consultant to recommend more economic use of existing facilities. It just seems that the scale, in terms of quantity (sq ft) and quality (extravagence) is unnecessary."
The marketing firm is a very small expense, most of this is being done by our own staff. There have been studies like this done as mentioned above in my other comments. I am old fashioned and believe we should look our best when we attend church, shouldn't the building also be the best. I can see why this looks very extravagent from the outside but if you had the opportunity to see the other options I think you would agree that this is a good plan, assuming you agree with building at all. Some folks on here are 100% against building anything.
"The plan is not to build based on 3,500, that kind of defeats the purpose. Every church growth and church builder has predicted the the attendance will reach between 15,000 and 25,000 once this is built."
Why not plant churches all around the area? Not grand enough? Would not attract the folks with money?
Let's face it, it would not work because none of this is about Christ.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...
I also think churches with multiple morning services really need to consider expanding if their reason is space for two reasons. Preaching is a tough gig and asking Robert to preach 4 times every Sunday will age him quickly and I believe you need the entire church to be able to worship together in one place at least part of the time.
These two arguments have been raised by every preacher and every yes-man at every church that has ever wanted to build. I'm not saying that standing and preaching for 3-4 hours in one day is not tiring, but it's his job. You don't build a new facility to ease a burden on one man for one day a week. That makes no economic sense. And the second point never holds water either because it is at odds with other arguments in favor. If every expert predicts attendance of 15-25,000, how will they all fit into a 3,000 seat facility? I'm not trying to bash the poster here, but he/she should think through some of these things.
The marketing firm is a very small expense, most of this is being done by our own staff.
Small relative to $130 million, maybe. But not "small" in general.
There have been studies like this done as mentioned above in my other comments. I am old fashioned and believe we should look our best when we attend church, shouldn't the building also be the best.
No. Not always. It's a common tactic that preachers use when pitching building projects to put out there that "we should be the best for God." How can you argue against that? It puts anyone who is legitimately opposed in the position are arguing that "we shouldn't be the best for God." It's a great tactic and it works almost all the time.
But I will argue that "best" is a term that needs to be defined. Does "best" mean "fanciest, nicest, cleanest, newest, biggest"? Or does "best" mean "the most economical bang-for-your-buck use of God's money to build adequate facilities to meet the needs of the church"? I say it means the latter.
Seriously, if one argues that "best" means the former, who not a $200 million facility? Why not a $1.3 billion facility, because the Cowboys have a new $1.2 billion stadium and we can build something better than that?
I can see why this looks very extravagent from the outside but if you had the opportunity to see the other options I think you would agree that this is a good plan, assuming you agree with building at all.
I'm not on the outside. I do agree that some building needs to occur -- Burt, CEB, Hunt need to go away. Not be renovated but go away. But I don't the scale or scope of the proposal is proper.
Some folks on here are 100% against building anything.
True. Just not me.
To 4:38 --
There were some other designs considered but the construction we are using is considered the best balance between cost and quality. I heard this from a outside architect that had nothing to do with the church.
I disagree with the architect you spoke with.
It has been considered and may still be a part of the plan however when you consider the space needed for the school you only have one building we could sell.
I disagree. Sell everything south of the Plaza (Burt, CEB, Veal, and Hunt). I find it very hard to believe that adequate facilities could not be housed in the space that is now the Plaza, Truett, Mary C, Cotton Exchange lot, and the existing (and yet unfinished) Criswell Center.
The plan is to build based on what is committed by the entire church. Yes we have raised half of it from a few but everyone deserves the opportunity to give, no one is forced. As I said earlier, I am not into the approach and believe we would get real close without all the hoop-la.
Excellent. I truly hope Robert sticks to this pledge, unlike Mac. However, any thinking person realizes that something less than 100% of pledges actually come in. So to be prudent, they should budget for 100% of cash-in-hand and 75% of pledges. And I agree that the hoop-la is unnecessary!
The plan is not to build based on 3,500, that kind of defeats the purpose. Every church growth and church builder has predicted the the attendance will reach between 15,000 and 25,000 once this is built.
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. If you were around when the Criswell Center was being pushed, you will recall Mac saying how church growth experts had told him that attendance would jump 1000-1500 on the day the doors opened. We both know that did not happen, and has not. I have not seen accurate attendance numbers in some years, but it has been steady at best. Seriously -- do you genuinely believe that attendance is going to increase from 3500 (if that's even where it currently is) to 15-25,000 just because of a facility? The church should be realistic and build for some growth, but not a quadrupling or more of its current attendance. Doubling would be very optimistic, in my opinion.
Of course if we hit that we would be building again, I can not recall but I think the new sanctuary will seat 5,000.
3,000, or about a 65% increase over the Sanctuary.
We can all doubt this and only time will tell if we actually do that. I do know we looked at some smaller foot prints etc. but again bang for the buck, it just was not that much less.
I disagree. I think this sort of analysis was taking certain "givens" into account. My point is that a substantially smaller footprint and substanially fewer bells and whistles would be substantially less money.
CONTINUED IN NEXT POST...
"And I include the charlatan pastor who twists scripture to get his big enterprise."
But do not include the small minded, small faith member who has no vision or care to see lost people fill God's buildings to hear His story.
I'll stick with the guys who follow a big God, not a little one.
"But do not include the small minded, small faith member who has no vision or care to see lost people fill God's buildings to hear His story."
God does not have buildings made of stone or wood anymore. His "temple" is now US.
And the 'vision' is spelled out in the Word and it does not say a word about fancy buildings to attract people. If it does, then show me. Be careful about following a 'man's' vision instead of God's which is spelled out for you.
BTW: You sound a lot like Ken Copeland in the above quote.
"I'll stick with the guys who follow a big God, not a little one."
Your big 'god' is a building
If anyone want to know some of the history of the ridiculous waste of money on buildings that has always been the way FBCDallas operates, read Joel Gregory's book: Too Great a Temptation.
1. Read the history of FBC-Dallas written by Dr. Leon McBeth some years ago. No pastor ever was loved more by his congregation or city than Dr. George W. Truett; but, when Dr. Criswell arrived as senior pastor succeeding Truett, FBC-D was on the downside--level at best, and not looking good for the future. Dr. Criswell made bold proposals for change and worked hard with paid and unpaid volunteers--and the Lord, obviously--to make the proposals produce results. The rest is history (and, according to Joel Gregory, some myth).
2. Annual Church Profile reports submitted by FBC-Dallas' staff indicates total morning worship attendance in 2009 as about 2550--an estimate (nobody really can count over 1000 people sitting in an auditorium accurately; Sunday School report: 2600--a more accurate number; baptisms reported: over 400, and more than 400 other additions during 2009--not bad at all, considering the condition of the SBC and most congregations of it).
3. Pray.
"Dr. Criswell made bold proposals for change and worked hard with paid and unpaid volunteers--and the Lord, obviously--to make the proposals produce results."
I am always a bit confused on what people think are the Lord's 'results'.
Paid volunteers? That is a new one.
4:31, don't be dumb. Allow for typos ("paid [staff] and unpaid volunteers"). What do YOU call "results"?--opportunities to criticize as a STUPID person? Sheesh!
In a Mega Church you have many layers of paid Staff.
At the bottom you have lowest paid workers.
ie paid volunteers or interns.
You have to be familiar with Mega Churches to understand how this all works out.
Mega pastor Steve Gaines implemented this at Gardendale after running off the volunteers and then paying people to do the same thing. This way the Anointed's gain full control of a church.
"ie paid volunteers or interns."
There is no such thing as a paid volunteer.
Some interns are paid and some are not. Depends on the situation.
The interns at my former mega were paid 12,000 per year. All hoped to get permanent positions. Most did not.
4:31, don't be dumb. Allow for typos ("paid [staff] and unpaid volunteers"). What do YOU call "results"?--opportunities to criticize as a STUPID person? Sheesh!
April 23, 2010 6:55 PM
I would be very interested in hearing your view of "results" if you could retract your claws for a moment and focus on content. Ad hominem usually means one does not have the ability to engage in content.
I saw that video of Dr. Criswell talking about a building project. That video was very old. Dr. Criswell has been dead for eight years and has never seen David Jeffress "glass New Age Shrine." How can he (Jeffress) sleep nights. He has totally used an old tape of Dr. Criswell to misrepresent everything Criswell said.
This is just blatant use of a very dear pastor, W.A. Criswell. I just hope people who see that video will see what Jeffress is trying to do.
Just like the old song, "What a difference a day Makes," so it goes for pastors -- and I sure do see the difference! Dr. Criswell wasn't perfect, but he loved the Lord and people, and I'm so thankful to have had him for my pastor. Furthermore, all the comments I've read already are so much better than anything I could add.
I'm just sick about Jeffress new "campus" and his tactics in trying to get it.
I'm just plain spent!!!
Anyone know how much debt FBC of Dallas is carrying in 2015?
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