On this Mother's Day, I couldn't help but think of Dr. Sheri Klouda, Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at Taylor University, and loving wife and mother.It sickens me to think of the men who are now defending the lies and deceit of Dr. Ergun Caner, the President of Liberty Theological Seminary - belong to the same theological bunch that supported Paige Patterson's removal of Dr. Klouda from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for the "sin" of, well, being a woman who was teaching college classes to men.
Caner spends a decade deceiving Southern Baptists into thinking he was raised in Turkey speaking Arabic and trained as an Islamic Jihadist watching Dukes of Hazard in Istanbul while learning how to do the deeds of 9/11 - that is fine and dandy - but a female seminary professor happens to have men in her college classes - she has to be shown the door and booted from our convention's seminary at great emotional and financial pain to her family.
Some of these men that are now defending Caner - Tim Guthrie, Bart Barber, Jeff Haney, Tim Rogers, and others - thought that having Dr. Klouda teach men at SWBTS presented a sin, or a danger, or some kind of theological threat to the Southern Baptist Convention. They thought God would be pleased in her dismissal, that the Bible mandated SWBTS to violate U.S. employment law and discriminate against a female professor for being a female.
A documented opportunistic deceiver keeps his job, a woman loses hers for being a woman.
It's a new day in the Southern Baptist Convention: lying to and deceiving church members all over the country for a decade is now no longer a sin. As Elmer Towns says about the decision to keep Caner in his post as president of LBTS: "It's not an ethical issue, it's not a moral issue". But let a female professor who has a genuine Ph.D teach a male student, that's over the top apparently and she has to get the boot.
I'm glad I'm with the bunch that believes what Caner did was wrong (and that believes his racial stereotyping is wrong, too) and he has no business being a seminary president . I'm glad that I'm with the bunch that believes it was wrong to fire a seminary professor for being a woman.
I actually have pity for the other bunch.
Happy Mother's Day, Professor Klouda.
Tom, Excellent compare and contrast piece. We must continue to do these comparisons and contrasts to see how depraved many of those in leadership really are.
ReplyDeleteThey have gotten by with such blatent skullduggery for years. Not only that but the men you mention in your piece have been mentored by Patterson. So was Caner. They simply cannot see their hypocrisy and institutionalized sin because it is so normal for them. They are loyal to a position or group. Not to Christ.
Those who learn from them, support them or see them as spiritual leaders have been warned. I cannot imagine how anyone could believe much of anything they say after this Caner scandal.
Barber is a trustee at SWBTS. This shows you how it works and why so many have gotten by with so much evil for so long. They stack committees and trusteeships so they are not held accountable. They are surrounded by sychophants.
You know, Tom, not long ago on my site you were defending Emir Caner. I guess that puts you among the number for whom "lying to and deceiving church members all over the country for a decade is now no longer a sin."
ReplyDeleteNot so, you say? Why not? Because you're only talking about Ergun's speech at FBC Jax? But the sentence above isn't talking about FBC Jax. It is talking about "all over the country for a decade."
Because you believed the allegations against Ergun but don't believe them against Emir? Well, ALL of your sources are attacking Emir just as vigilantly as they are attacking Ergun. If they are not credible with regard to Emir, then why are they credible against Ergun?
And credibility really is the issue. If Ergun has lied, let him feel the appropriate consequences for his lies. If Emir has lied, let him feel the appropriate consequences for his lies. I'm not condoning lying.
I just am slow to accept the accusations that arise solely and entirely from a band of bitter misanthropes who have nothing to say except it be in the tearing down of somebody else. My mother taught me better than to dash off on crusades at the instigation of nothing better than that.
Bart: Now who's not telling all the facts honestly? Emir has not said a word. The evidence is that he too misspoke several times concerning his experiences. Not as much or as far out there as Ergun by far.
ReplyDeleteI do know that Ergun went to see Emir within the last month or so, Ergun is now fully going under the name Ergun Mehmet Caner. The apology that CB claims he gave Liberty University has not been made public, I don't know Bart, nothing seems to have changed. The evidence is overwhelming. I haven't changed my mind, and I haven't seen many others change theirs either. No, I think Tom is pretty accurate here.
Do I owe anyone an apology as has been stated numerous times? No. Not so far anyway. :)
ReplyDeleteI can imagine (note that I said imagine) the conversations that must have taken place between Emir and Ergun after the FBC Jax sermon. Emir's choices were between bad and worse. Unfortunately he chose what may turn out to be the worse one rather than the bad one.
ReplyDeleteBennett Willis
I just am slow to accept the accusations that arise solely and entirely from a band of bitter misanthropes who have nothing to say except it be in the tearing down of somebody else.
ReplyDeleteDr. Barber, do you actually believe what you just wrote? The "band of bitter misanthropes" are the "sole" reason for the Caners' difficulty?
Do you know how what you wrote sounds to those of us who know none of the people involved in this situation but have listened to Caner's own conflicting words which he spoke publicly over the past decade?
It sounds like you have an agenda that is as dishonorable as the ones you excoriate. One would think a seminary professor would display more wisdom and restraint.
When I read the blog consisting of information about Jamal Jivanjee speaking about Ergun Caner, it really made me laugh.
ReplyDeleteYou know why?
Because Jamal Jivanjee was SHIA! His father was a Shia, his mother was a Catholic.
Ergun Caner writes: “The irony is, Jamal knew us as Muslims, because we went to the same Mosque, prayed in the same prayer room, and was taught in the same classrooms as we were. In fact, his family rented an apartment from our father!”
I understand if Jamal went to perform his Friday prayers at Columbus Islamic Centre because there were no Shia Mosques around, but to specifically say that Jamal was taught in the SAME CLASSROOMS is funny.
Why on earth would a Shia (Jamal) and a Sunni (Ergun) be attending the same Islamic classes? It doesn’t make sense. It’s like a Southern Baptist sending his or her children to optional Catholic Bible study classes.
Quite frankly, I am not here to prove Ergun is a fake ex Muslim. People can disagree if they like, it doesn’t bother me even the slightest. However, there is yet a consensus amongst many Christians and myself that Ergun Caner did not actually know anything about Islam. Their argument is that Ergun proclaimed the shahada as a young age therefore he is an ex Muslim, they don’t consider the fact that one has to acknowledge the fundamentals too – knowledge which if Ergun had indeed embraced, he would be able to demonstrate. The most Ergun can say is – “I was born in a Muslim context but was influenced by my anti-Islamic hippie mother who was my primary carer” – to say that he himself was a devout Muslim is nothing but a lie.
I do not see why still there is a focus on whether Ergun was a Muslim or not. I believe he wasn’t whereas many Christians believe he was. It is not important. What’s important to focus on is his lies that he has been speaking for the past 10 years. Nobody can deny that he lacks knowledge in Islam, and nobody can deny that he has constantly lied through his teeth to further his career.
They are just diverting away from the real issues - his lies.
Bart, you're a silly man.
ReplyDeleteBart, are you sure you are not Bart Simpson. Your circular logic sounds just like that misguided little boy, trying to explain himself to a perceived hostile world. Grow up! Emir is not the issue, Ergun is. Ergund Caner is president of a seminary. As such, he should, at the very least, present himself as an ethical leader. Instead, he has demonstrated himself to be one who finds it more appealing to lie about his background, and pursue graduate study through a university which grants Ph.D.'s as if they were throwing out beads at a Mardi Gras parade. Almost anyone can get one...if you pay the money. What's worse, Caner has brought that philosophy to Liberty. While Liberty has reasonably strong academic programs in other disciplines, degrees in theology are yours or mine for the asking...don't worry about moving to Lynchburg or going to class, all you need is a bachelors degree (from a minimally accredited school), the required payment (of course the money is always paramount) and a computer. Did I mention the money? That is especially important for those eligible for the G.I. Bill. Wouldn't you love it if your medical doctor had been trained that way?
ReplyDeleteWatchdog,
ReplyDeleteHappy Mothers Day to you and yours. So nice to have you sitting as Judge and Juror.
At least I am at peace with God in the stand I have taken and I am NOT bearing false witness nor am I siding with a man who intent on destroying Christianity.
I still fail to see why a few desire to keep this garbage going. How many investigations will it take to make you happy?
Have a great day!
"...lying to and deceiving church members all over the country for a decade is now no longer a sin."
ReplyDeleteLying to and deceiving church members from many diverse denominations all over the world is now no longer a sin? Maybe to him & them but not to me. Mr. Caner should retract all his works, pay back all those who bought his sensationalistic stuff and repent in sackcloth and ashes. Show this lost and fallen world what he is truly made of or has he done that already? What he is made of that is. I think Ergun Caner and those who support him honestly do not understand how depraved and wicked the human heart is.
To sin and not to blush!
(Thomas Brooks, "Heaven on Earth" 1667)
Only those things which are sinful, are shameful.
"Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign Lord." Ezekiel 16:63
When the penitent soul sees his sins pardoned, the anger of God pacified, and divine justice satisfied, then he sits down ashamed.
Sin and shame are inseparable companions.
A Christian cannot have the seeming sweet of sin, but he shall have the real shame which accompanies sin. These two God has joined together, and all the world cannot put them asunder.
It was the vile and impenitent Caligula who said of himself, "that he loved nothing better in himself, than that he could not be ashamed."
A soul who has sinned away all shame, is a soul ripe for hell--and given up to Satan! A greater plague cannot befall a man in this life, than to sin and not to blush!
"...nor am I siding with a man who intent on destroying Christianity."
ReplyDeleteROFLOLUMSS!!!
Anybody trying to do that has no show. And actually, Christians can often learn more from their enemies than from their so called friends. It is the foe within the camp that is more dangerous.
As far as I can see, from my vantage point, Ergun and his backers are unrepentant sinners regarding their lies, whitewashing and cover-ups. There is no full disclosure of their evil, sinful deeds. Are they Christians, only God alone knows that for certain. I am not certain. LORD Jesus Christ please give them the bona fide gift of Repentance
"ou know, Tom, not long ago on my site you were defending Emir Caner. I guess that puts you among the number for whom "lying to and deceiving church members all over the country for a decade is now no longer a sin."
ReplyDeleteNot so, you say? Why not? Because you're only talking about Ergun's speech at FBC Jax? But the sentence above isn't talking about FBC Jax. It is talking about "all over the country for a decade."
See the tactic? Clever, huh? Nevermind that Caner has been caught in blatent lies spanning a 9 year period that are verifiable with official documents. Nevermind the facts.
"It sounds like you have an agenda that is as dishonorable as the ones you excoriate. One would think a seminary professor would display more wisdom and restraint."
Never forget he is a trustee at SWBTS and supports Patterson. That is where he learned these tactics.
Watchdog,
ReplyDeleteHappy Mothers Day to you and yours. So nice to have you sitting as Judge and Juror.
At least I am at peace with God in the stand I have taken and I am NOT bearing false witness nor am I siding with a man who intent on destroying Christianity.
I still fail to see why a few desire to keep this garbage going. How many investigations will it take to make you happy?
Have a great day!
May 9, 2010 3:55 PM
Some people actually support these phonies. I suppose Tim is qualified to be judge and juror for Tom?
Look at how many people Caner is taking down into the pit with him. these are people who follow men and movements. not Christ.
ReplyDeleteThe only way to deal with this garbage in the faux Christian community like the SBC leadership and Liberty is to cut off the money supply. That, and celebrity, is all they care about.
ReplyDeleteTry and post a question about ergun caner at sbctodayblogspot and they will not allow you post. A simple question: when did Ergun come to America? He claimed on many, many occasions that it was 1978/79 but the truth is that it was 1969 or 1970.
ReplyDeleteTim, we are not siding with anyone. We have just heard over and over that he was a teenager when he came to america in 1978 when he didn't. You can't admit that he lied. He has never come forth. The Focus on the Family sermon aired 4-26-10. He stated in it that he came in 1978? What sayest thou?
I want to know Tim G. where is the link, documentation to your quote on your blog? All you have is a he said and that is it. No link, no quote, no nothing. Sorry I can't take that as evidence. Where is the man, an interview maybe? Something.
ReplyDeleteI ask Tim G. since I asked on your blog and Peter's but my question has yet to appear. I figure it must be relevant since you both refuse to post my question on either of your blogs. :)
ReplyDeleteRegarding Mrs. Klouda and her situation. Maybe, just maybe, like Queen Esther she was/is priviledged to be placed in the position in which she found herself. All things work together for good and she may be honored more highly in a higher court than the one which rendered the previous unfavorable verdict. Wasn't it Lois and Bernice that taught young Timothy??? One other major point the scriptures reveal much more about Mary and her parental influence than Joseph regarding the upbringing of Jesus. Just thinking.
ReplyDelete"nor am I siding with a man who intent on destroying Christianity."
ReplyDeleteTim,
Actually you are siding with one who has done far more to weaken the Christian witness than Mr. Kahn will ever do. Mr. Kahn is doing neither more nor less than we expect him to do. This cannot be said of Dr. Caner. Dr. Caner is doing far more damage to our ability to witness regarding our faith than Mr. Kahn will ever do.
Bennett Willis
Tim,
ReplyDelete"Don’t give that which is holy to the dogs, neither throw
your pearls before the pigs, lest perhaps they trample
them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" Matt 7:6
Regarding Mrs. Klouda and her situation. Maybe, just maybe, like Queen Esther she was/is priviledged to be placed in the position in which she found herself. All things work together for good and she may be honored more highly in a higher court than the one which rendered the previous unfavorable verdict. Wasn't it Lois and Bernice that taught young Timothy??? One other major point the scriptures reveal much more about Mary and her parental influence than Joseph regarding the upbringing of Jesus. Just thinking.
ReplyDeleteMay 9, 2010 9:55 PM
Uh....Queen Esther was dealing with Pagans not fellow Jews. Supposedly, Klouda was working for Christians.
We should all be willing to take beatings and ruin from the Heathens. But not fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. They should be rebuked and not allowed to continue in such sin within any believing group.
"Actually you are siding with one who has done far more to weaken the Christian witness than Mr. Kahn will ever do. Mr. Kahn is doing neither more nor less than we expect him to do. This cannot be said of Dr. Caner. Dr. Caner is doing far more damage to our ability to witness regarding our faith than Mr. Kahn will ever do."
ReplyDeleteThanks Bennet. Often, the obvious has to be pointed out to these guys. Hmmmm. What would weaken the Christian witness?
A lying evangelist and seminary president.
Dr. Dog -
ReplyDeleteHope your family enjoyed a very happy Mother's Day!
I would love to know how Dr. Klouda's position was different from Paige Patterson's wife, Dr. Dorothy Patterson. I understand that both taught seminary students.
Can anyone explain the rationale of keeping Dr. Patterson in her position as a seminary professor, aside from favoritism and nepotism?
Its the old sweep it under the rug theory...out of sight out of mind. Circle the wagons, ride it out, cover it up, keep it a secret. Don't let anyone know. Take your pick. They believe that to explain a situation would be more harmful to them than just ignoring it. After all, if you don't admit to anything, it didn't happen. And of course preachers are not subject to the same judgements and rules that "ordinary" people are, right?
ReplyDeleteI believe Nixon chose that same mechanism when he probably was innocent of prior knowledge of what happened at the Watergate, however because he chose to cover up what his associates had done (after he found out) was dragged into it and lost the Presidency. His own taped conversations turned the tables on his previous statements. There is an old saying regarding putting your foot into the tar bucket: it just keeps getting worse and worse until you take your foot out of the bucket. Confession is good for the soul yet many are afraid to do it. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions also comes to mind. Position, place, and promotion are key indicators of mans 'FOCUS' rather than GODS.
One thing about history is that we never learn anything. Its the same with every generation..sin,sin,and more sin. Have you noticed that most preachers do not preach sermons against sin anymore? It might get someone upset or offend somebody, or even worse spotlight themselves! They prefer to tell you something they just recently read or made up!!!! It's always, an indefensible defense. "Not me I am a preacher"! "I am not supposed to be questioned or answer for anything". "I will just have you removed, or thrown out of the church, because you challenged me". "After all I am who I am, and my buddies will cover for me all the way to the bank".
May 10, 2010 7:22 AM
ReplyDeleteThis is in no way to meant to defend P.P. orh his wife but the difference between the two is that she teaches women only. She needs to go on a diet, too.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt was explained to me that Dr. (Mrs.) Patterson was teaching women how to bake cookies, set tables, and care for their ministering husbands. Yes, she sometimes taught these ladies history and a little theology, but it was only so they wouldn't be embarrassed by not knowing what the table guests were discussing as she was cleaning the kitchen.
Dr. (Mrs.) Klouda actually taught men Hebrew and theology. That, in the mind of SWBTS leadership, is a sin.
Tim G,
ReplyDeleteKahn's motivations aside, it was Caner who dug his own grave. And, beware to others who have built their "ministries" on a foundation of lies.
In this age of technology, people will search your sermon illustrations on the web as soon as they get home and by the evening will post your embellishments, sloppy interpretations of the facts and outright lies all over the internet for everyone to see.
Amen WD! Im with you!
ReplyDeleteI believe I hear the rocks crying out. Its too late to turn the clock back now, as we have gone too far by lack of faith, and true worshipping the Father of Truth!!!
ReplyDeleteI wonder in the past have any (any whatsoever) pastors who received PHD's via Female professors or the internet handled by a female are willing to have their college credits deducted? Uh huh. I didn't think so either!!!
ReplyDeleteJust read recent "Wartburg Watch"
ReplyDeleteblog.
The history they document of the actions of FBCJ against the Rich family is a slap in the face by the head of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville. Shameful!
No wonder this blog continues to be so popular - people by the thousands read "accurate" and true accounts - there's no fiction in what we read.
Appreciate TWW - great documentation of TRUTH here in Jacksonville.
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteThank you for the kind words about TWW.We try to write only what we believe to be true.
My God be with the Rich family. And may God convict Caner and those at LU.
Remember, we are two women. That probably means some men need to repent if they learn something on our blog.