If you've followed the Ergun Caner story this year, you no doubt have heard about the SBC pastors like Tim Guthrie, Tim Rogers, and Peter Lumpkins whose staunch defense of Ergun Caner rivals the Democratic spinsters who defended Clinton after the Lewinski affair.
Guthrie is the worst: he is incoherent at times, contradicts himself in the same articles, and lashes out in vitriol and anger at Caner's critics.
Thomas Twitchell has written an excellent blog comparing the Caner defenders to those of Clinton, and points out the latest Guthrie lunacy in his latest attempt to defend Caner by falsely accusing James White of "bearing false witness", otherwise known as "misspeaking" to Guthrie and other Caner defenders..
Click below to read Twitchell's article, it is a great one:
Thomas Twitchell Blog: "Tim Guthrie Winning Truth? Surely You Jest"
From my reading, I think Mr. Guthrie is clear: During the period of time in which he and Mr. Caner were on the board, they did not communicate. And for not making sure audiences knew this information, Mr. Guthrie declares James White a liar of grand proportions.
ReplyDeleteMr. Guthrie additionally makes clear that he has had contact with Mr. Caner at times, and a "more than minimal" amount this year.
So the basic facts Mr. Guthrie presents aren't confusing IMHO. But trying to understand his selective outrage, and how he determines lies from misstatements is absolutely baffling.
Mr. White's blog entry as a follow-up to the radio show in which he briefly discussed Mr. Guthrie was on-target, IMHO.
Mr. Guthrie and Mr. Caner have a personal connection. Mr. Guthrie's outrage is because the board membership wasn't the source of their personal connection. That's straining at gnats, and his outrage over this is ridiculous.
He's not outraged that Mr. White claimed a connection between he and Caner, simply that he got the time/place wrong.
Comedy in Mr. Guthrie's world of truth:
James White getting a time & place wrong about others, but otherwise premise is correct: LIE.
Ergun Caner repeatedly getting times & places wrong about his own personal history in ways that lead an audience to a false premise (terrorist in training conversion): MISSTATEMENTS.
But I do appreciate that Mr. Guthrie has clarified that he has been in more than minimal contact with Mr. Caner this year.
At the end of it, I see Mr. Guthrie being a loyal friend. I believe a true friend would counsel Mr. Caner differently, but I see a pure motive somewhere in that heart of his. He honestly believes his friend is being railroaded and that minor mistakes are being mishandled by Mr. Caner's critics.
Peter Lumpkins is Caner's, James Carville. Guthrie is Paul Begella.
ReplyDeleteTwitchell is right...it is reminiscent of the Clinton defense. "He is doing the important work of the presidency"...just like Caner's say he winning souls to Christ...(even while he lies..Jesus doesn't mind)
As for the Caner/Guthrie connection...I think it is much more shallow than some are making it. Both guys are Paige Patterson clones. This behavior is deep rooted in the SBC from way back. Patterson mentored Caner.
BruinEric,
ReplyDeleteTG's confusion is common among those who have not read the information that is so readily available. He has a solution if he chooses to avail himself of it. :)
This comment on Tim's blog by Les Puryear had me shaking my head wondering what chapter of the Bible this reading was from.
ReplyDeletePraise God that you have been found worthy to suffer for His name!
You've got my support.
Debbie:
ReplyDeleteYou said:"This comment on Tim's blog by Les Puryear had me shaking my head wondering what chapter of the Bible this reading was from.
Praise God that you have been found worthy to suffer for His name!
You've got my support."
LP's comment is an insult to all of those people who have truly suffered for the Gospel.
I tend to think that TG and LP and others like them have a different version of the Bible than the one I own.
The really simple truth is for both President Bill Clinton and Ergun Caner, a simple and open confession, followed by genuine repentance would have closed all their problems. I firmly believe Americans are genuinely forgiving people, once you level with them. More so with Christians.
ReplyDeleteThe key points here is transparency and openness. A step by step process ...
1. Confession
2. Repentance
3. Restoration
Ergun Caner and Bill Clinton made it hard on themselves needlessly.
About Les Puryear and Tim Guthrie ... wonder how they would be when real tribulations occur, rather than their brother and sisters in Christ attempting to bring Ergun Caner to a Confession. It is sad to see Christians confusing their difficulties in Confessing and comparing it to tribulations.
But one thing is certain in this world. The tribulations are coming. Yes to America. Yes to Christians. Then the Christians will be sifted in the crucible.
I had to read the sentence over several times to make sure it was read correctly when Guthrie said,
ReplyDelete"I never had any contact with Dr. Caner..."
They are on the same board for a particular organization, and never had any contact!!!!
How is that thing run???
I can only think of two possibilities:
1. The so-called "board" is a farce and the names on it are strictly for PR purposes. Said "board" has absolutely NOTHING to do with how the Watchmen is actually run.
2. Guthrie is lying through his teeth about having no contact with Caner. Considering how little stock the Canerites place in honesty and personal integrity, this is very plausable.
What is amazing is how Tim G and his fellow Caner defenders are complaining how Guthrie has been wrongly connected to Caner...yet they have no trouble connecting all Caner critics to James White. First they were all connected to the Muslim blogger, now they are all minions of James White.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile potty mouth Craig D still spouts his filth on his blog, and he gets comments from Peter Lumpkins praising him for his wonderful gift of writing.
Sad.
Lumpkins, Caner, Guthrie, etc., are all Patterson clones. They are the legacy of Paige Patterson and his tactics.
ReplyDeleteIf one can be saved and behave like them, then what was the point of the cross?
"Praise God that you have been found worthy to suffer for His name"
Les mocks true persecution when he makes such statements...which only gives us more insight into the type of pastors we have in the SBC.
I praise God for the internet so we can see how dead spiritually the SBC and other Christian groups really are.
"2. Guthrie is lying through his teeth about having no contact with Caner. "
ReplyDeleteIt all depends on how "contact" is defined. They are very Clintonesque, you know.
But then, I would not believe a word out of their mouths. They all have deceived, lied, twisted, etc., for me to believe anything they say.
I praise God for the internet so we can see how dead spiritually the SBC and other Christian groups really are.
ReplyDeleteAugust 1, 2010 7:11 AM
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
In case anyone is interested, an online petition in support of E. Michael Caner has been set-up.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/882/521/848
Oopps, sorry for the bad cut and paste! Here is the full address:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/operation-restore-dr-caner/882521848/taf
Oopps, sorry for the bad cut and paste! Here is the full address:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/operation-restore-dr-caner/882521848/taf
August 1, 2010 10:58 AM
HaHa, Bill Clinton, Ted Haggard and Joseph Goebbels have all signed it!
I am personally sick of this entire "Caner" story and situation.I know this is what some are hoping for that many will just give up and accept whatever defense has been made on behalf of Caner. But just the opposite seems to have happened. My reaction is, I am fed up with these self-promoting preachers (all that qualify as self-promoting), the millionaire boys club. The autocratic authority guys. Do as I say but not as I do. And don't question me as I am the preacher group... This is my opinion: I have no more time for these celebrity preachers, country club churches, no more money, not one dime, no more "faith" in any of them. I have "moved on" in life. I have actually drawn closer to the Lord. I have gotten my eyes off these people. They no longer occupy my thoughts or time. I read and understand my own Bible. The Holy Spirit leads my understanding. I don't need these self important authorities, that know less than I do, to tell me anything. Just like in the early days of the church, they try to make one believe that you can't understand your Bible and probably need them to be saved. You can't understand your Bible unless they tell you what it says. Baloney! My answer is "Who needs them"? They fight amongst themselves to keep the club going. All trying to be "big-shots". I don't need them, don't want them, not interested in them. God will take care of them one day. I am interested in the furtherance of the Gospel (self study) witnessing, and in people coming to Jesus by any means that is OF GOD. I also pray for Mr. Rich and family to prevail as they should never have been treated they way they were. Thus, this is why I read this blog.
ReplyDeleteI'm like Mr. Darcy in "Pride and Prejudice"...once my good opinion is lost on someone its lost forever!!!
ReplyDeleteThe petition to restore Caner is getting some stellar signatures. Here's a few from the top of the list:
ReplyDeleteMike Warnke
Ted Haggard
William Clinton
Joseph Goebbells
I don't think Craig Daliessio realized he set himself up to be included in a list of the most infamous liars of all history when he signed the petition. I'm guessing he may have been the one to set it up since he was the first to sign it.
Be sure to sign the petition soon! There's still time to sign on as "Baghdad Bob" or "Joseph Smith."
.
"I have actually drawn closer to the Lord. I have gotten my eyes off these people. They no longer occupy my thoughts or time. I read and understand my own Bible. The Holy Spirit leads my understanding. I don't need these self important authorities, that know less than I do, to tell me anything. Just like in the early days of the church, they try to make one believe that you can't understand your Bible and probably need them to be saved. You can't understand your Bible unless they tell you what it says. Baloney! My answer is "Who needs them"? They fight amongst themselves to keep the club going."
ReplyDeleteAnd as more and more read the blogs, they will move on just like you to discover the Holy Spirit is the Best Teacher. And Free except for the cost of the bible.
A hearty AMEN to you, friend! Welcome to the Body of Christ. Not the entertainment social club that expects you to pay dues so they can live well and build 'their' earthly kingdoms.
I used to wonder why people never went to a church.
ReplyDeleteI used to wonder why there were NO traffic jams on Sunday mornings.
Now I am one of them because of what religion has taught us in today's time which is.......
"B E W A R E OF THE W O L V E S"
I quit listening to these decievers and am much happier with the "personal" relationship I now have with Christ.
Now all you that follow these men, I hope you enjoy their ride...
NOW I KNOW THE REAL MEANING OF BEING A " WISEMAN"
An interesting sermon that relates to some of the comments that are disillusioned with church is from Pastor Wade Burleson, Emmanuel Baptist Church, Enid, OK. The sermon is titled "1 John > The Anointing of the Father", March 22, 2009 - Part 11 of series (1 Jn. 2:26-27). As their church is redoing their website, the audio mp3 is not yet available on their new website, but you can watch the video here. The sermon starts around 28:00.
ReplyDeleteThe have blocked access to the signatures they do not like, but still count them. Dr. B. L. Z. Bubb recently signed as well.
ReplyDeleteThy Peace: I am unable to pull up this audio. But, I will say that what I have read in the past of Burleson, he seems to be a fair minded preacher. My point is most arn't. Most are in it for the money and the power. If they had to get a "real" job, they would probably starve. They promote themselves, and their mission trip vacations. I know one that "shops" in Europe..tough assignment, especially if the church is paying for the trip. Most just sell their "brand", they're good at that. But not much good at leading others to Saving Grace in Jesus. I guess there is just a little too much Calvanism (God chooses who is to be saved) creeping into Baptist churches. By the way (off topic) if one is in a Baptist church, professing to be a Baptist, working as a Baptist, isn't one supposed to be Baptized in the Baptist church or at least JOIN the church officially? And to join officially isn't one to be baptized? And to join offically isn't it customary for the individual to come forward in the invitation to join the church? No matter who he or she is?
ReplyDeleteAlpha & Omega Ministries Apologetics Blog [James White] > Monday Miscellaneous
ReplyDeleteOn the "this is really weird" side of things, over the weekend a flood of Ergun Caner websites began showing up on Google searches. Evidently, someone (I sure hope it isn't Caner himself!) has dumped at least $800 into hiring an online reputation firm. How do we know this? Well, the firm is so good, they tell you who they are! Note this reference. It was posted by "Udentiti Online Reputation Services." Others are following up on this story with more zeal than I am, but it seems that it is a rather silly attempt to bury negative Google search results for Ergun Caner under a mountain of hits for the same article, which, as you will notice, was not written by a native English speaker. It is written in what is called Engrish, that wonderful language that flows from online translators and is often the stuff of greatly humorous labels and street signs. In this case, we learn that Caner is a Theologist, and, "Caner embrace as a Teacher and Theologian, being challenged and make each person to think and open their minds through his wonderful knowledge." Umm, right. Here's a list of some of the hits (compiled by none other than Jason Smathers), all obviously coming from the same organization, that have appeared over the weekend: ...
What stands out to me in all of this is that finally we're seeing that "all roads lead to Rome". What I mean is that failure is built into the very structure of the traditional church model.
ReplyDeleteScripture tells us that God views the church like a body with many parts: all one substance but parts that each have spiritual gifts to contribute, for the building up of the whole. This not a chain, an army, a business, a club, or a career path, but a life to live.
There is essentially no difference between the tiny church with one pastor, two deacons, and three worshipers, and the ultra mega superstore church. They are one and the same, because they are both the wrong model; neither is like a body at all. It's only a difference of degree, not kind.
God can and has worked around our human frailties, but that is no excuse to keep them going, especially when we know better. Where is the Body of Christ? Why must it hide in these cages we've built to make us feel religious?
This isn't about how nice the preacher is or how many charities the church supports. It's about returning to the Spirit-led, Body-modeled, living and breathing organism we were meant to be. Only then "will all these things be added to you".
Paula your article shows a keen insight into the interworking of most churches in our age. Its not about the body of Christ doing His work but rather (their mission statement, their program, their new policy, their MONEY and POSITION etc, etc.). Most people sit in the pews and don't knock the system since they will be put in a position of being called "divisive". Thats the code word for those that don't go with the flow. For those that don't accept the "ruler" and his power. The majority of members won't stand against the things they know are wrong in the church, as they may lose their own position, of approval and social promanance. Some have actually fooled themselves into thinking they are spiritual. And you do realize that their parents and grandparents attended such and such church and where could they go to be with their friends? No they just sit there and take it all in, knowing their attitude on Sunday is just the opposite on Monday through Saturday. That is why they are neither hot nor cold just lukewarm. We unfortunately have a lot of cowards within the so called church of Laodicea...how did we get this way in the first place. Just sitting there and not doing whats right. No turning back now we come this far by a "lack" of faith, commitment, and honoring the right principles, but primarily not honoring what God says. Man has put himself on the throne using Gods name to get there. Thanks for your insight.It is a huge sign when a preacher/church uses a marketing firm to market the church or himself. Marketing firms are for making money. The leading of the Lord through the Holy Spirit is how to build a church. For me church is "Gone with the Wind".
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:55 AM, you're very welcome. Of course it's the Spirit who gives insight though; I'm only telling what I hear. :-)
ReplyDeleteMany who see these things still believe we should try and be "change agents" on the inside. But it's as if we've been given plans to build an electric car but have been trying to make it run on gas. It will never be right.
I see scripture telling us that God's focus is not primarily on what we do, but who we are, for when you have the latter the former will follow effortlessly. We have been "doing church" instead of "being the church". And that, whether the powers that be like it or not, means beginning with individual Spirit-led believers who are trained in the Word. The reason this hasn't been done to any significant depth is fear: fear that we the sheeple would not follow them if we knew too much.
I highly recommend The Reformers And Their Stepchildren, a book so important I summarized just to help get the message out.
DanielSpratlin > Detached From Reality: Reputation Repair for Hire
ReplyDeleteRead the last link on Spratlins reserch into Caner's Identity reputation repair. Very informative.
ReplyDeleteCaner just gets worse and worse. His heart is so hard I fear for his eternal life.
I still don't think Caner hired the reputation firm. The way that Daniel asked the questions may have tipped them off that someone wanted to do damage to someone else so they of course said no. If someone just hired them, had the $$ I doubt no questions were asked. I think Caner is too Public Relations savvy to go hire someone who can't speak English.
ReplyDeleteDebbie and others
ReplyDeleteDon't get bent out of shape with Les Puryear's comment about Tim Guthrie where he says,
"Praise God that you have been found worthy to suffer for His name! . . .
You've got my support."
If they don't think that Ergun lied... you guys just need to learn to read into things better just like folks say that Ergun didn't mean that he moved here in 78, he meant that he got his papers in 78.
Maybe what Les meant about TIm was not, "Praise God that you have been found worthy to suffer for his name!---meaning Jesus.... but rather, "Praise God that you have been found worthy to suffer for Ergun's name." It has to be this way don't you see? Because how in the world is sticking up for Ergun Caners years of lying---suffering for the name of Jesus????? IT IS NOT... so he must of meant suffering for Ergun's name.
I hope this clears things up for you guys...
Tim is absolutely right. It is time for all of you that have such vile hatred for Dr. Caner to turn your passionate hatred to another. His family has suffered enough and it is time to stop!
ReplyDelete