We have been looking lately at the ridiculous assertions of Ed Young and Steve Gaines and Mac Brunson and even Perry Noble when it comes to the tithe. It can be pretty discouraging to learn how these very popular preachers are misusing scripture from their pulpits (or coffee table on a stage), but there is good news on the horizon on the topic of tithing.Dr. David A. Croteau, graduate of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and current professor at Liberty University, has a second book on tithing coming out next year entitled "Perspectives on Tithing: Four Views". Croteau is the editor of this book that will examine different views of the biblical tithe from Croteau, Hemphill, Kidd, Ecklund, and North. The best thing about this list of contributors: you don't see Brunson, Gaines, Noble, or Young.
Croteau is also the author of "You Mean I Don't Have to Tithe: A Deconstruction of Tithing and a Reconstruction of Post-Tithe Giving", that we discussed on this blog here. Croteau is a Ph.D. graduate of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, where his thesis was on the tithing doctrine, done under the tutelage of Dr. Andreas Kostenberger.
Here is what Wade Burleson said about the work of Croteau and Kostenberger:
"Dr. Andreas J. Kostenberger and Dr. David A. Croteau are the product of Southern Baptist theological education. These men, working on the faculties of Southeastern Theological Seminary and Liberty University respectively, have published many scholarly articles. One joint project, entitled “Will a Man Rob God?”, focuses on the abolishment of the Old Covenant law of storehouse tithing and the establishment of the New Covenant practice of graceful, cheerful and generous giving as believers are led by the Holy Spirit. Both men, inerrantists to the core, clearly display their love for the sacred text in the aforementioned article."
So while high profile pastors under enormous pressure to raise revenue have been beating the sheep to convince them they MUST tithe as a means to obey God and avoid personal calamity, and have been collecting account and routing numbers for auto withdrawl, and accusing their non-tithing members of being spiritual whores and common criminals and burglars and telling them to stay home if they don't tithe, it is good to know over the past several years that Croteau has been working hard on these two projects, out of the limelight. This has not earned him many friends I'm sure in the SBC - in fact as you recall earlier this year it was discovered by Wade Burleson that SBC pastor Les Puryear may have contacted SEBTS about Kostenberger's views on the tithe in an attempt to get him removed.
Mac Brunson of FBC Jax told his congregation in February 2009 that if they didn't agree with him on the requirement to tithe, that they should "Take it up wit da Book". And boy oh boy, has Croteau been taking it up "wit da Book". Thank you David A. Croteau for takin' it up wit da Book, and daring to tell the truth that the Old Testament law of tithing has been replaced by a better way clearly spelled out in scripture: loving, generous, sacrificial giving as Christians are led by the Spirit.
I am going to FBC this AM and I hope Mac preaches on Tithing. I have a smile on my face and my Bible in my hand and my Tithe in my pocket.
ReplyDeleteI will be blessed by it!
I bet my Frig doesn't break down this week. I bet I don't get a flat tire. I bet I don't get a cold.
How about you?
Anon 7:31 AM. You are following a man. What you claim you are doing is putting yourself in a position that the law requires. You are not trusting Grace to save and protect you. Read your Bible and learn the lesson that better is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
ReplyDeleteNovember 21, 2010, 7:31 said...
ReplyDeleteI am going to FBC this AM and I hope Mac preaches on Tithing. I have a smile on my face and my Bible in my hand and my Tithe in my pocket.
I will be blessed by it!
I bet my Frig doesn't break down this week. I bet I don't get a flat tire. I bet I don't get a cold.
How about you?
---------------------------------------------------------
Mac !! Good morning to you Sir! Glad you're still
keeping up with that 'ol Beauty Shop gossip :). We
can all be thankful on this Sunday, that we still live
in a free country, and that WD has endured all of
your persecution, so that YOU could have the
opportunity to blog anonymously. BTW, did you
need an extra hand, carrying around such a large
tithe check???.......oh, wait, that's what Robbie Hinson's
for.
Tithing: The magic wand for Christians!
ReplyDeleteThis tithing sounds like carrying around a rabbit's foot-superstition or the power of suggestion.
ReplyDeleteAlso I took a look at Les Puryear's blog, where he said that about 89% of what's in the offering plate goes to buildings, debt, and salaries in a typical traditional church. I know there are many other preachers on here-does that sound about right to you?
"I am going to FBC this AM and I hope Mac preaches on Tithing. I have a smile on my face and my Bible in my hand and my Tithe in my pocket.
ReplyDeleteI will be blessed by it!
I bet my Frig doesn't break down this week. I bet I don't get a flat tire. I bet I don't get a cold.
How about you?"
There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
So, now we know these people were killed because they did not tithe. Jesus just forgot to tell us that.
The bible declares that before a person puts an offering into the plate that they should leave it and go and ask forgiveness from the individual that they have sinned against. If this was done all over the churches of America there wouldn't be one cent in any offering plates because mans heart is deceitful and most will not repent. Keep shining the light watchdog.
ReplyDeleteI have read Hemphill's position on "tithing" which is ridiculous for anyone who wants to study at all. He claims that the tithe goes back to Mel and Ab giving him 10% of the spoils of war. Of course, this was following a WAR and a one time deal. He forgets the OT tithe system was 23%
ReplyDeleteAnd Hemphill is a PhD! Just goes to show us we cannot follow men who derive their income from a 'tithe'. The SBC created a nice fat 6 figure job for him after he was ousted as Pres of a seminary. He NEEDS the tithe to be true.
long time fbc jaxmember: you sound like a disgruntled choir member. Why do you stay at a church that you seem to despise?
ReplyDeleteAw, come on. Anon 7:31 was just being sarcastic!
ReplyDeleteI am not a fan of this forum of bellyaching, but I do believe that this book will be enlightening. If the people on this forum would just stop whining about OT giving and start giving under the NT concept of cheerfulness and grace, their wallets would be emptier and their hearts would be fuller. Unfortunately, most prefer the full wallet.
ReplyDeleteAw, come on. Anon 7:31 was just being sarcastic!
ReplyDeleteNovember 21, 2010 2:00 PM
How do you know? So many of them believe exactly what anon said. It is scary! If they did not believe it, they would run as fast as they could away from Mac's teachings on this because they would know it was false.
Anon November 21, 2010, 1:31 said ...
ReplyDeletelong time fbc jaxmember: you sound like a disgruntled choir member. Why do you stay at a church that you seem to despise?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Since you asked, I am not a choir member, and I'm not sure what gave you that impression. There is /was an
individual who posted comments under the name of FBC
Choir Member, but I am not that person.
I regret if my tone came across as despising FBC Jax.
Quite the opposite is the case. I love my church, and the
remnant who remain. It's this love for the PEOPLE of
the church which prompts me to stand firm with WD as
he, Christa Brown, New BBC, Wade Burleson, and others
warn us of spiritual abuse toward the sheep .
Anon 12:51 on Hemphill:
ReplyDeleteYes, Hemphill is a big storehouse tithing proponent. I believe he has written much of the tithing literature for the SBC.
But here is what is great about Croteau's new book: it will show the two sides that Kemphill and Croteau represent on this issue. We will see that the Brunson/Gaines/Young/Noble view of tithing is off the charts, not even within the realm of Kemphill's doctrine!
And this in one huge way legitimizes the work of Croteau and Kostenberger refuting the storehouse tithing doctrine. One of the foremost proponents of the doctrine, Kemphill, has to go toe-to-toe with Croteau in this book.
Should be interesting.
Anon 2:45 - the only people that view the exposure of the false doctrines used by storehouse tithers, are people who themselves defend the false doctrine.
ReplyDeleteThose of us in the pew that know it is a false doctrine, don't mind discussing and exposing the false doctrine.
Amen? Amen!
It's good to see that Tom Rich is up at 2 AM posting these blog entries. I wonder how his family enjoys him being squirreled away furiously hunting these vast church conspiracies? Can anyone say tin foil hat?
ReplyDeleteGood one Anon!
ReplyDeleteMost of my articles are written days in advance, and then pre-posted, to be spaced out every 2 or 3 days. But glad to know you're here reading. Actually I'm in my mother's basement in a bean bag eating cheetohs. :)
ReplyDeleteWhen a minister and his family are living high on the hog off of the tithes of the church members,
ReplyDeletethey can anticipate that some of those members will 'think twice' before handing over a full ten percent.
They will take a look at the minister's suit, then their own.
At the minister's gated community, and then their own neighborhood.
At the minister's well-turned-out wife's hair and fashionable clothes, and then look at their own wife in her three-year old winter coat, and on, and on, until . . .
they GET IT!
the guy is on the take
and the congregation are patsies.
The Bible states that there was none greater than John the Baptist. Yet we find no scripture saying anything whatsoever about him tithing. In Luke chapter 2 35-37 there is Anna a widow for 84 years that daily prayed and fasted night and day and never left the temple in all of those 84 years, yet there is no mention of her tithing. This should tell us that even if you gave all to the poor and had your body burned it profits little if at all if one has no love for their brother. This concept of tithing to MEN is false. It places a burden on those that can least afford to do it and no burden at all on those than can readily afford to do so. I say quit relying on tithing and witness to people while there is still time whether it be door to door, at work, or in a store. Satan has used money to place Joseph in prison, stir up covetness in Judas, allow an entire faimily to be punished for stealing silver, and even betray the Lord, enable a King and Queen to falsely accuse and kill a neighbor, and permit a multitude of sins throughout the canon of scripture. Satan knows if he can get our attention to money rather than witness to the lost he can accomplish much. His plans never change they worked 3000, 2000, 1000, and even this very day. Think about it.
ReplyDeleteIt's good to see that Tom Rich is up at 2 AM posting these blog entries. I wonder how his family enjoys him being squirreled away furiously hunting these vast church conspiracies? Can anyone say tin foil hat?
ReplyDeleteITS GOOD TO KNOW MAC IS READING THE BLOG. HE'S A FUNNY GUY, KIND OF A RODNEY DANGERFIELD WHEN HE HAS A RED NECK TIE ON.
Most of my articles are written days in advance, and then pre-posted, to be spaced out every 2 or 3 days. But glad to know you're here reading. Actually I'm in my mother's basement in a bean bag eating cheetohs. :)
ReplyDeleteNovember 21, 2010 7:15 PM
If that's where you choose to do your dirty work from, that's your business. Pre-written? You mean you do not receive some type of divine inspiration regarding your posts? After all, you are "the light" and the "beacon" for all of us lay folk who have obviously been brainwashed, drugged, or otherwise conned by Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, I mean, Dr. Brunson. The former is how you, and your "supporters" would describe him, is it not?
The bean bag comment was tongue in cheek, referring to how preachers have in the past criticized bloggers using ad hominem.
ReplyDeleteGee, I have not claimed to be the "light" or the "beacon" of anything. I just have a religious blog where I post my views and allow others who agree and disagree to have their say.
I would not describe Mac Brunson as you have depicted him, no.
"The bean bag comment was tongue in cheek, referring to how preachers have in the past criticized bloggers using ad hominem.
ReplyDeleteGee, I have not claimed to be the "light" or the "beacon" of anything. I just have a religious blog where I post my views and allow others who agree and disagree to have their say.
I would not describe Mac Brunson as you have depicted him, no."
Well, as we see right now- on a Sunday evening, you are spending time arguing with people you don't even know, instead of tending to your family. To call your blog "religious" would be tantamount to calling a bean burrito health food. While you have not claimed to be a "light," your supporters who idolize you and the "truth" you spread have referred to you as such. I do respect that you allow others to share their views. However, the spectacle that has been created around this blog has been ridiculous. While you claim to have been damaged by being uncovered, you have thrived within the public attention you have received as a result, have you not? Be honest with all of us. How about you post your property appraiser records on the blog? How about you post information about yourself that we can use to make a true decision regarding the objectivity and factuality of the news you post here? This blog has faulted folks at FBC for "blindly" following Mac Brunson and similar pastors, and yet we blindly follow you as well. You posted your MSJ doc on here- post YOUR deposition so we can see what YOU really have to say.
Luke 6:38 says "Give and it shall be given unto you." Pastor Mac has challenged us to step up and SHOW we love God! The people that hate tithing DO NOT TITHE!!! I have never met one member at FBC that regrets tithing...we trust the Lord to handle where the money goes. I don't need financial statements or disclosures; I have the Holy Spirit who gives me my PEACE! So keep digging for problems at our Church...there are NONE! We have a Pastor that gives us the TRUTH...maybe thats why you left...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
ReplyDeleteLuke 6:38 says "Give and it shall be given unto you."
ReplyDeleteIs this passage talking about money? If it is, that is prosperity my fellow citizen. This is what SBC would want you to believe. A follower of god would not say money but possibilly love. God can give your heart love espically if you give that love. But your love is money and its spell on you!
"Luke 6:38 says "Give and it shall be given unto you." Pastor Mac has challenged us to step up and SHOW we love God! The people that hate tithing DO NOT TITHE!!! I have never met one member at FBC that regrets tithing...we trust the Lord to handle where the money goes. I don't need financial statements or disclosures; I have the Holy Spirit who gives me my PEACE! So keep digging for problems at our Church...there are NONE! We have a Pastor that gives us the TRUTH...maybe thats why you left...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
ReplyDeleteWell said ANON! I'd love it for Tom Rich to actually discuss something truthful for a change, or better yet- discuss nothing at all. Tom Rich- hopefully you will one day realize that this blog has been nothing more than a waste of time.
"Mac !! Good morning to you Sir! Glad you're still
ReplyDeletekeeping up with that 'ol Beauty Shop gossip :)"
WD, was this you, or a family member?
"Luke 6:38 says "Give and it shall be given unto you." Pastor Mac has challenged us to step up and SHOW we love God! The people that hate tithing DO NOT TITHE!!! I have never met one member at FBC that regrets tithing...we trust the Lord to handle where the money goes. I don't need financial statements or disclosures; I have the Holy Spirit who gives me my PEACE! So keep digging for problems at our Church...there are NONE! We have a Pastor that gives us the TRUTH...maybe thats why you left...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
ReplyDeleteNovember 21, 2010 10:06 PM
Oh my word! This is Joel Osteen doctrine. Or, it sounds more like Amway interpretation. I cannot believe that an FBCjax person thinks this is about money! How ignorant. I had no idea that doctrinal ignorance was so bad there that they took a passage about SPIRITUALITY and turn it into a get rich quick scheme using Jesus.
If it was about money, Barnabas would have been a zillionaire after selling everything he had and giving it to the church.
If mega pew sitters ever really study the Word with the Holy Spirit teaching them, Mac could not last.
Boy, the Mac/tithe defenders are coming out in force. Ever look at the timing of such things?
ReplyDeleteAnyone notice how they always have to insult Tom personally? Of course, they are not well versed enough to exegete scripture to back up their position. They have simply been taught to call names and insult. Great role model you guys have.
Dr. Dog -
ReplyDeleteGreat post!! Methinks you've struck a nerve with Mac....tis the season afterall. Evidently it is more blessed to give than to receive, unless you're Mac Brunson, Steve Gaines, or Ed Young, and then we better be forkin' it over, Brother, so THEY can receive!! Amen? Amen!
"Since you asked, I am not a choir member, and I'm not sure what gave you that impression. There is /was an
ReplyDeleteindividual who posted comments under the name of FBC
Choir Member, but I am not that person."
I'm still around. I hope I'm not going too off topic, but has anyone noticed the choir sounds like it is buried under the orchestra in the mix at church?
I might buy that book on tithing. I agree with you, Mr. Rich, that tithing was an OT thing and is not mandated in the NT.
Anon 11/21 @10:06pm said
ReplyDelete"...I don't need financial statements or disclosures..."
***************************
Truer words were never spoken by
a Mega Church "Pastor" on the take!!
Anon November 21, 2010 7:52 PM said
" When a minister and his family are living high on the hog off of the tithes of the church members,
they can anticipate that some of those members will 'think twice' before handing over a full ten percent."
****************************
BINGO Anon, you nailed it!
Lynn,
ReplyDeleteOn the 89%----that's probably above average, depending on how you slice it. There are folks that would consider most of a Southern Baptist Church's Cooperative Program as "going to salaries" as opposed to how the typical church member sees it as "going to missions."
Many churches are 30-50% salary, another 20-30% buildings, depending on what they've got. There are some churches that are badly out-of-balance due to a lot of misplaced priorities by the American church, both pastor and people.
I'm not sure what some of you are doing with Scripture is exegetical at all. Actually the way some of you interpret Scripture to your own liking makes we wonder if we're using the same Bible.
ReplyDeleteThe building modifications changed the acoustics and they are working to remedy that!
ReplyDeleteOff Topic: Stop Baptist Predators [Christa Brown] > Thanksgiving "Firsts" at Cornerstone
ReplyDeleteIt’s the Sunday before Thanksgiving and my heart is filled with gratitude. At the invitation of Rev. Dwight McKissic, I spent the morning in a joy-filled worship service with the people of Cornerstone Baptist Church in Arlington, Texas.
Awesome story, thanks for sharing, Thy Peace!
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:53 You are absolutely right. Whenever you can't find tithing a doctrine in the NT just scream and pat your feet. The kids that holler the loudest are without excuse. They simply are following a man and their cart is in the ditch...and will stay there until they grow up and realize just how immature they have been all of these years. They are still on milk so pray that God will open their eyes.
ReplyDelete"in fact as you recall earlier this year it was discovered by Wade Burleson that SBC pastor Les Puryear may have contacted SEBTS about Kostenberger's views on the tithe in an attempt to get him removed."
ReplyDeleteThat's kind of ironic considering what Puryear is going through right now. If I weren't a Christian, I would say it might be Karma.
"Boy, the Mac/tithe defenders are coming out in force. Ever look at the timing of such things?"
ReplyDeleteThe Mac defenders are: family memebers, staff members (ESP. those that followed him from Dallas), & Mouriliioal Amnmourimin. That's it!
They all have financial vested interests as well. As always, follow the money.
"I am going to FBC this AM and I hope Mac preaches on Tithing. I have a smile on my face and my Bible in my hand and my Tithe in my pocket. I will be blessed by it!
ReplyDeleteI bet my Frig doesn't break down this week. I bet I don't get a flat tire. I bet I don't get a cold.
How about you?"
Les Puryear not only tithes but preaches on the tithe and attacks anyone who disagrees with his interpretation and calls them ugly names. And yet, he has been chased out of his church and is having to sell his house now because he can't find a job that will pay the bills. How do you explain that?
WD: I for one am sorry that there are so many sarcastic, rude and nasty comments sent to you by (so-called) loving christians. It hurts me spiritually to see what members of FBCJ and others will resort to when you merely point out an opposing view of the church and/or pastor.
ReplyDeleteThis past Sunday we finally made the break from FBCJ and enjoyed a Spirit filled wonderful Scriptural message from another church. All of this without a totally unrelated addition to the sermon in History 101.
What a breath of fresh air! We also recognized other previous FBCJ members around us. It is sad that all of the former members we spoke with left for the EXACT same reasons we did. (Most of these reasons have been posted on your blog.)
Thank you, Tom, for showing so many that you can disagree in a loving way....like FBCJ used to be, not so very long ago!
Anon 10:13 - I did read what happened to Les, and I feel bad for him. I hope that he is able to find work quickly.
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:56 - I assume some of those remarks are from young people, or people that take great offense to my blog, and I understand. Some may be close friends or family of Mac, but I don't know. If so, I too understand them feeling this way. I don't take it too personally.
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:13 - I did read what happened to Les, and I feel bad for him. I hope that he is able to find work quickly.
ReplyDeleteNovember 22, 2010 11:33 AM
Me too, even though he called me an antonimion. :o)
Les should have been in a mega church where he would have a golden parachute and free land given to him along with all the other perks.
Wouldn't it be a hoot to see Mac go teach High school?
"I bet my Frig doesn't break down this week. I bet I don't get a flat tire. I bet I don't get a cold."
ReplyDeleteSince you are wanting to bet, I'll call your anecdote and raise you one.
My fridge has been running strong for 30 years, haven't had a flat tire in decades, and I can't remember the last time I had a cold. Everything is going wonderfully well.
And yet I believe that the NT model for giving is taught in 2 Corinthians 9: 7.
Since my anecdotal story is stronger than yours, I must be right.
Rick Warren and Purpose Driven, including Saddleback, teach the TITHE too:
ReplyDeleteTithing
http://www.saddleback.com/giving/opportunities/tithe/Saddleback
“Give Today!
Why do we tithe? The Bible says, The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to put God first in your lives. (Deuteronomy 14:23 TLB) Tithing is a reminder that God is the supplier of everything we have. It is also God’s personal invitation to an outpouring of his blessing in your life.
In Malachi 3:10 (NLT), God says this: “Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.” This is the only place in Scripture where God tells us to put him to the test. In other words, he’s saying, “Go ahead. I dare you. See if you can out-give me.”
Rick Warren says: “The Bible says: “The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to put God first in your lives. (Deuteronomy 14:23 TLB).” He says the Bible says that but the Bible does not say that. And that was not the purpose of the tithe in the Old Testament at all. The tithe was to teach the Israelites to fear God always. The tithe was never money except when it was exchanged for money when travelling from one place to the next.
Deuteronomy 14:22-29
Warren misinterprets that Scripture even from the TLB, then retranslates it. If you read the next three verses you can see that if the Jews were off to some other place they were able to change the tithe into money and spend it on whatever they wanted when they got there, including a great party, strong drink and all. Warren conveniently leaves that lot out.
Rick Warren also say in the above re; Malachi 3:10 that “This is the only place in Scripture where God tells us to put him to the test.” That is wrong. It is not telling us, Christians, to put God to the test, it was telling the Jews to put God to the test. Rick Warren preaches wrong application there.
I believe Mark Driscoll is another one who puts the squeeze on people to give/tithe.
Check out his audio message linked in here:
How to Preach on Giving - Mark Driscoll
http://theworldfrommywindow.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-to-preach-on-giving-mark-driscoll.html
While I was looking up about tithing I came across this:
To Every Nation Documentary
http://saddleback.com/blogs/communityblog/to-every-nation-documentary/
“To Every Nation documents the story of how Saddleback Church became the first local church in over 2,000 years to fulfill the Great Commission of Jesus as chronicled in Matthew 28. From 2003 through 2010, over 13,000 members of Saddleback Church traveled to every continent delivering a message of hope and peace.”
Saddleback has NOT become the first church in over 2,000 years to fulfil the Great Commission, what boastful pride and arrogance. The Great Commission remains unfulfilled. They delivered Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Message not God’s Gospel Given Message.
"should have been in a mega church where he would have a golden parachute and free land given to him along with all the other perks.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be a hoot to see Mac go teach High school?"
NO KIDDING!! Amen, Amen & Amen. These "pastors" I tell you. They remind of a famous supermodel who once quipped that she won't even get out of bed for less than $10,000 a day. And that was about 15 years ago! These pastors sure are ones to be talking about humility before God. PLEASE! WHAT GUILE! They make me sick!
The Bible states that there was none greater than John the Baptist. Yet we find no scripture saying anything whatsoever about him tithing. In Luke chapter 2 35-37 there is Anna a widow for 84 years that daily prayed and fasted night and day and never left the temple in all of those 84 years, yet there is no mention of her tithing.
ReplyDelete__________________________________
Straw Argument (or stupid, you choose). The reason God included them in Holy Writ has nothing to do with tithing. Their purpose was to announce and point to the Redeemer of the Jews and all mankind, Jesus Christ.
I just have a religious blog
ReplyDelete__________________________
Religious, maybe. Christian, absolutely NOT!!!
Anyone notice how they always have to insult Tom personally?
ReplyDelete______________
And Tom has avoided that tactic, altogether, now hasn't he. Kool-Aid anyone?
Les Puryear not only tithes but preaches on the tithe and attacks anyone who disagrees with his interpretation and calls them ugly names. And yet, he has been chased out of his church and is having to sell his house now because he can't find a job that will pay the bills. How do you explain that?
ReplyDelete___________________________
It rains on the just as well as the unjust. No where in scripture does it say that God's faithful servants will not face persecution.
Anon: You are the one reaching for straws. The point which you missed is NEITHER THE WIDOW OR JOHN THE BAPTIST WERE EVER PRAISED FOR TITHING AND YET THEY WERE JEWS. YOU have got to get over this business of the tithe unless you are one on the receiving end?
ReplyDeleteMany are NOW seeing what Rick Warren and Purpose Driven really is. And to think Jerry Vines had the "Purpose Driven Life" book by Warren taught at FBCJ TWICE, during the Training Union hour, on Sunday night! Guess it proves even the "elite" can be fooled. Also heard Vines say from the pulpit that R. Warren was a friend of his!
ReplyDelete"It rains on the just as well as the unjust. No where in scripture does it say that God's faithful servants will not face persecution."
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact, I believe that Jesus told the disciples that they could count on it. Is a servant greater than his master?
With that in mind, I believe that it is time for OT tithing advocates to dispense with the blessing and cursing model/motivation for giving. That sword cuts both ways.
Anon 2:58. How right you are. All the disciples were either crucified, hung, had their heads removed and even the last one John was cooked in oil...so much for the tithe!!!!
ReplyDeleteMany are NOW seeing what Rick Warren and Purpose Driven really is. And to think Jerry Vines had the "Purpose Driven Life" book by Warren taught at FBCJ TWICE, during the Training Union hour, on Sunday night! Guess it proves even the "elite" can be fooled. Also heard Vines say from the pulpit that R. Warren was a friend of his!
ReplyDeleteNovember 22, 2010 2:22 PM
They were looking for more success models to grow even larger. You should have read the transitioning the church thread over at pastors.com before they made it private. It was like reading wolves planning to take over the farm. These guys are brutal to those who DARE question them.
I don't believe the tithe is taught anywhere in the NT or OT. And I don't believe that tithers themselves (those that give 10% of the gross on every increase they have ever gotten or ever will get) believe that you MUST tithe to be saved. And I don't believe those that disagree with Tom about tithing really care what he thinks about it and probably don't even read his blog. So who is it that is reading and disagreeing and commenting? I'll let you figure that one out. :)
ReplyDeleteJohn H,
ReplyDeleteThanks for confirming that the biggest chunk of the offering does go to salaries, debt, buildings.
How can Christians possibly defend that? If the Bible is their authority, where does it say to do this? I remember it talks about visiting those in prison, helping widows and orphans, "whatever you've done for the least of these, you've done for Me." I think it says Christians are supposed to help each other also.
I think that meeting together on "the Lord's Day" seems to be what it's now all about-for the most part. And the meeting must be in a really nice building with a paid staff.
And another thing-what do pastors learn at conferences that they don't already know? They already know how to help people. And if they want to spread the gospel-they already know how to do that also.
Check out these prophetic words from Dr. Adrian Rogers right off his website:
ReplyDeleteSometimes when I talk about tithing, people will say, “Well, you don’t expect that little widow to tithe her pension, do you?" I’d say, “Sure!" And they reply, “You hardhearted man!"
I’d be hardhearted if I didn’t teach her to tithe; I want her to be blessed! If there’s anybody who needs to depend on God, it’s that kind of a person. You’re not smarter than God…don’t you know that God knows what that little lady needs?
And this person will say, "You’re trying to take her money from her. The church doesn’t need it." And that person is right on the second part. No, God doesn’t need her money, or anyone else's for that matter.
But God wants to bless. He says, “Prove Me! I’ll renew your faith, I’ll rebuke your foes, and I’ll restore your fruitfulness. Your fruit is not going to fall to the ground ahead of time. I’ll make you fruitful in all that you do."
Dr. Rogers is not a liar. Dr Vines is not a liar. Dr Lindsay is not a liar. God is not a liar. So...if you disagree with them, that makes you a......
Every FBCJ member should order this book for the comming season grab one for your pastor too.
ReplyDeleteAnon 7:28 - we did look at Adrian Rogers' views on the tithe last January, and also in October, including this quote.
ReplyDeleteAdrian Rogers and Jerry Vines are not infallible, they could be wrong on some things. They could even be sincere, and be wrong.
Would that shake your faith to consider that Vines or Rogers woudl be wrong on the storehouse tithing doctrine?
The way to find a model to grow larger, if that is what is paramount to "success" in a Baptist church, is Operation Andrew. It worked for 40 years until no one was home anymore don't you know.
ReplyDeleteNo, these gentlemen are/were not liars. They were taught tithing in the seminaries and they just preached what everyone else did. Lindsay truly believed everything he preached. I would choose the word "misguided" in explaining why these men preached the tithe. In Lindsays case money was not the motive. He was sincere in his belief of storehouse tithing. But today I would say he was HONESTLY wrong. Still, I wish he was around today. A most honorable man.
ReplyDeleteJ. Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Charles Spurgeon, R G Lee, Peter Marshall, and D. James Kennedy all believed in the 10% tithe.
ReplyDeleteWow, here are some of our greatest Theologians thrown under the bus by Dog!
Let's make you Pope Bro!
What's next thing to be thrown out of the Church...the New Testament?
Dr. Rogers is not a liar. Dr Vines is not a liar. Dr Lindsay is not a liar. God is not a liar. So...if you disagree with them, that makes you a......
ReplyDeleteNovember 22, 2010 7:28 PM
Again, with the man worshippers.
To suppose these men are not capable of error is foolish and dangerous.
They seem to be revered like a pope or such. To disagree or to ask a valid question about them is to invite the spanish inquisition.
Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here?
Garlando
"Check out these prophetic words from Dr. Adrian Rogers right off his website:...."
ReplyDeleteProphetic words is right, false ones.
He IS a hardhearted man for teaching such non-Christian legalistic, binding nonsense....
Mind you he is a typical hardline arminian isn't he? They are everywhere in the church today, worldwide, they all teach the tithe trick. "Give me 10% of ya dough or we will die." Phooey!
Dr. Rogers is not a liar. Dr Vines is not a liar. Dr Lindsay is not a liar. God is not a liar. So...if you disagree with them, that makes you a......
ReplyDeleteNovember 22, 2010 7:28 PM
This sort of ignorance is very sad. It is a following of man instead of Jesus Christ. This is someone who never tested what they are taught and were impressed with mere men. Very sad.
Anon 10:30: Actually, Croteau provides evidence that Spurgeon and McGee were not advocates of the tithe being binding on Christians. Read McGee's commentary on Malachi. Croteau provides many references to show that Spurgeon should be lumped under the group "Against tithes being binding on Christians".
ReplyDelete"They seem to be revered like a pope or such. To disagree or to ask a valid question about them is to invite the spanish inquisition."
ReplyDeleteThey are what I call "personalities". And there is a huge cult of personality around many of these men. That does not mean they were bad men but there is no way such blind worship did not affect them in some way. perhaps from asking themselves hard questions.
I have been very impressed with Francis Chan who has been convicted to walk away from his mega success because of what it was doing to him.
"J. Vernon McGee, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Charles Spurgeon, R G Lee, Peter Marshall, and D. James Kennedy all believed in the 10% tithe.
ReplyDeleteWow, here are some of our greatest Theologians thrown under the bus by Dog!
Let's make you Pope Bro!"
LOL - first time I have ever seen the words "Pope" and "Bro" next to each other.
Speaking of the Pope. None of the men you mention are infallible. They would be the first to admit that they have made mistakes when preaching sermons and interpreting scripture. The Bible is the infallible repository of truth - not a preacher no matter how well he speaks.
I always find it interesting when discussing a doctrinal issue when someone (instead of going to scripture) finds preachers that agree with him for support.
In addition, you are not even correct in that regard. McGee uses 2 Corinthians 9:7 as the model for NT giving. Although Billy Graham supports the tithe, his organization does not.
Here is McGee addressing NT giving:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWItOyH3fs
"Under grace today we are on a different basis altogether. Paul was asking for a gift as God has prospered them...And I believe that giving today should be put on that scale."
So, since McGee says that the tithe is not for today. Are you throwing him under the bus? Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation to turn it around on you.
"Dr. Rogers is not a liar. Dr Vines is not a liar. Dr Lindsay is not a liar. God is not a liar. So...if you disagree with them, that makes you a......"
ReplyDeleteWriting this statement makes YOU illogical.
From Scott Adams' "You Are Wrong Because"
25. INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THAT SOME THINGS HAVE MULTIPLE
CAUSES
Example: The Beatles were popular for one reason only: They were
good singers.
"Check out these prophetic words from Dr. Adrian Rogers right off his website:"
ReplyDeleteEver notice how these man-worshipers quote preachers instead of scripture to try to make their point?
It's really quite easy to see what the great Bible teacher J.Vernon McGee taught about the tithe: In fact, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWItOyH3fs
ReplyDeleteA little research goes a long way. It's sad that we do not have such Godly men as Brother McGee with us. I've yet to find him preach a single heresy. He loved God with all his heart.
BTW.. you can find more from him at www.ttb.org
Great men such as this don't come along very often and I'm so thankful to God for sending him to be among us and that the legacy of him can still be heard and understood.
"Luke 6:38 says "Give and it shall be given unto you." Pastor Mac has challenged us to step up and SHOW we love God! The people that hate tithing DO NOT TITHE!!! I have never met one member at FBC that regrets tithing...we trust the Lord to handle where the money goes. I don't need financial statements or disclosures; I have the Holy Spirit who gives me my PEACE! So keep digging for problems at our Church...there are NONE! We have a Pastor that gives us the TRUTH...maybe thats why you left...YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
ReplyDeleteWas this written by a Baptist pew sitter or a cult member? Unfortunately, it is becoming increasing difficult to tell the difference.
Every sentence flies in the face of scripture and common sense.
Mac is not the problem. Mac is a symptom of the problem. YOU are the problem.
"Everything we truly believe, we obey. Everything else is just religious talk." ~ Adrian Rogers
ReplyDeleteI guess that means that around 95% of Baptists don't believe that the tithe is for today. I would call that a consensus.
"Dr. Rogers is not a liar.
ReplyDeleteDr. Rogers did not realise he was a liar. Dose this make a nonlier
"Dr. Rogers did not realise he was a liar. Dose this make a nonlier"
ReplyDeleteFrom Dictionary.com:
Lie: Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Your definition of the word does not match the definition in the dictionary. What does that tell you?
By the way, I have heard Dr. Rogers admit from the pulpit that he has told a lie in his past. So, technically he is liar. Just like the rest of us.
Stop worshiping men!
Dr. Rogers did not lie. He told the nice Patrol Officer, "My headlight's out?" He did not lie he told the man the truth. Of course he did admit he did it in such a way as to lead the officer to believe that Dr. Rogers did not know his headlight was out.
ReplyDeleteHe even admitted that he and Joyce were known to have to reason things out form time to time. guess he had to put his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us.
"D. James Kennedy all believed in the 10% tithe.
ReplyDeleteD. J. now knows he was wrong in that regard, eh? Saved but as by fire....
R. C. Sproul (I respect R. C. and have many of his books from years ago and still glean many helpful insights from him ), Tim Keller, Randy Alcorn and heaps and heaps of others, far too many to name off hand, teach the tithe, and the sad thing is, they are wrong, the result of years of wrong teaching sadly.
1 Corinthians 3:15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved but only as through fire.
Dr. Rogers did not lie. He told the nice Patrol Officer, "My headlight's out?" He did not lie he told the man the truth. Of course he did admit he did it in such a way as to lead the officer to believe that Dr. Rogers did not know his headlight was out.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea why this story came up here, but acting all innocent when you know you're guilty is not telling the truth.
Actually, if he indeed knew it was out, the truth would have been, "Yes, officer, I know it's out. I will fix it (or have it fixed) ASAP."
I vaguely remember that story but can't remember if he said he'd noticed before going out at night that the headlight was out or if it had just gone out that night, but regardless, the truth would have been to admit he knew it was out, not to feign ignorance. I hope that was his point in telling that story.