At the end of the Sunday 12/12/10 First Baptist Dallas morning worship service, addressing his congregation Robert Jeffress stood firm and did not back off from his idea of having the "Grinch Alert" website. He said his stand on Christmas with this web site is part of what Christians must do to stem the premature decay of society, and that he is not willing "to wave the white flag of surrender and give our country over to the atheists and the infidels and the unbelievers."True to form, he got a standing ovation of support from his congregation after his statement. In case you didn't know, all mega church pastors in the history of Christianity have gotten standing ovations when they have to explain that what they did in the past week which embarrassed themselves and their church was actually all for Jesus.
Here are some quotes from Jeffress' statement to his church (if you want to listen to his entire statement, click here, and go to the 12/12/10 sermon and go to the very end):
"In some ways I wasn't surprised [at the controversy]. I expect the atheists, the unbelievers, the infidels to be that way....if Alan Combes [liberal radio host] is against it I know I'm doing the right thing."
He then expressed concern that some conservative, evangelical Christians have expressed negative feedback on his idea.
"I realize saying Merry Christmas, putting up a Christmas tree isn't going to get anyone into heaven...but I also believe - and I put this in the same category as I do working to keep "In God We Trust" on our coins, saying prayers at public meetings, allowing the Ten Commandments to be displayed in the classroom or in the court room. None of those things is going to save anybody. But I believe our nation overall is going be healthier as a nation with a public acknowledgement of God than we are if we allow the secularists, the atheists, the infidels to remove any mention of God from our public arena, and that's why I'm doing this."
Those darned infidels who aren't saying Merry Christmas! Everyone - get the pitchforks and torches! Off with their heads! Recant, recant you infidels!!
He then mentioned that Jesus declared Christians to be the "salt of the earth", and that salt was a preservative in Jesus' day.
"We want to do everything we can to keep this culture from rotting prematurely.... I don't know about other people, and apparently other people don't agree, but I am not willing to wave the white flag of surrender and give our country over to the atheists and the infidels and the unbelievers. I think there is still time for us to do something, so, that is why I'm doing this."
Yes, Christians absolutely are to be the salt, spreading the Word and standing for right. But that doesn't include making a big deal out of businesses making the choice of saying "Happy Holidays" versus "Merry Christmas". This is not the same as gay rights, or abortion, or keeping "In God We Trust" on the coins. In fact, to suggest that it does, diminishes these other important cultural stances that we take, and makes us look petty and ignorant.
And his last statement as his peeps rose to their feet to give him the customary standing ovation deserved by all mega church pastors: "I think there is still time for us to do something..."
Yes, there still is time to something, like construct a computerized fountain to architecturally lead the infidels and atheists and unbelievers to Jesus, else waterboard them in the fountain until they confess.
49 comments:
We are not embarassed as you say, he received a standing O because we stand behind. You don't like it of course since all megachurch pastors are satan himself and all members of such churches are mindless followers.
On the otherhand it gives you something to write about and keeps you in your sought postion of fame among the smart dissenters of the SBC.
I have a problem with a pastor who calls non-Christians "infidels."
Where is the precedent in scripture?
So, your plan is to lead people to Christ by insulting them?
If only store employees would say "Merry Christmas" and church members would tithe, all of America's problems would be solved.
Yep, this story makes Christians look like a pair of Double-D's:
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/12/grinch-merry-christmas-happy-holidays-dallas/1
You might want to check last weeks special music by Ms. Texas. She received special notice from the pulpit, whereupon she stood and waved to the applauding public. (Why is this important anyway??)
But check the video, if there is any, of this beauty pagent winner, singing a music special with the choir and orchestra. Pay particular attention to the tight fitting black skirt, it's short length, the lack of sleeves on her arms. There is more flesh revealed than there is clothing.
Oh yeah, the sermon that followed was about Satan and temptation. Well, how appropriate to give us all an object lesson on lust right up front. Now that is leadership fail.
Then the sad part. She gyrates in that short skirt to jacked up rythyms of a great hymn. It's a vestige of carnal flesh singing spiritual sounds of a hymn. It was very sad indeed. You know, this celebrity thing is getting way out of hand.
We had a celebrity baseball player several weeks ago, last week it was the beauty princess, one week we saw the fountain video. Oh, we are all so special here at FBC. Yeah, that's us. Come and be on of us. There's no place like us.
All this stuff is kind of telling of a deeper issue, I think we have lost our way in the great commission. I gotta find a new church. Soon.
I feel a kind of withering going on. Cold got to be.
This also highlights an area of trouble for me in that Jeffress is stealing intellectual property by using the Grinch name. I work in the creative industry and am consistently appalled by the lack of integrity some ministers and ministries display in stealing the creative work of others. Using someone else’s creative work and distorting it to make money for themselves, and make no mistake that’s what this media campaign is all about to Jeffress, is stealing. I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t see any way he can claim Fair Use or any other defense for this. Those who manage the Dr. Suess estate should shut him down and shame him stealing someone else’s work.
Megas are frequently guilty of this, sometimes using the exact logo marks registered symbols from companies for their own marketing use. It’s shameful and sad.
The guy has lost it and the pew sitters are just as bad.
Cruising the blogosphere, there are a lot of Christians who do not agree with him, either. Even SBC pastors! Check out Howell at from Law to Grace blog. A smart guy who was a lawyer before becoming a pastor.
Is Jeffries saying these folks are athiests and infidels?
The SBC is a joke, folks, with guys like Jeffries, Estes, Patterson, Brunson, Gaines, etc.
You cannot convince me that Jeffries is nt trying to attract attention to himself with this.
The Reverend Jeffress sounds much more like a Mormon than a real, historic Baptist. Somewhere along the way he has forgotten that Baptists struggled to insure this nation would not have the appearance or practice of a theocracy. He is an embarrassment to our Baptist heritage. His pronouncement of the period before Christmas as the "Christmas Season" does not make it so, nor does it change the reality that some of our fellow citizens celebrate different religious observances at this time of year.
Anon. 5:40, It appears he is calling ANYONE who disagrees with him an "infidel." I would disagree with Anon. 7:32: he sounds more like a radical Muslim. The religious mindset is identical.
"You yourselves continually are being the salt for the earth's well-being. But if the salt may become tainted, by what will it become salted [again]? It no longer is being strong for even one thing except having been thrown out to be being trodden down by the people." (Matthew 5:13)
Our salvation relationship with the Lord Jesus has made us something we weren't before (stable compounds!), with an ability we didn't have before (positive spiritual influence on others). We can do a good for others around us yet without Him--simply by being who and what He re-made us to be. If Christians' lives become adulterated by anything, we will lose our effectiveness for Jesus in/with the world. For God, the more important thing is for believers to appear who we truly are: satisfied customers of the Lord Jesus Christ. We may use words if necessary, I suppose--but the emphasis here is on being, not on saying or otherwise doing anything, for the earth's well-being.
In case you didn't know, all mega church pastors in the history of Christianity have gotten standing ovations when they have to explain that what they did in the past week which embarrassed themselves and their church was actually all for Jesus.
LOL! Best line in the whole piece. And so true! Or alternatively "it was a mistake of the mind, not the heart."
I have a problem with a pastor who calls non-Christians "infidels."
I have a problem with a pastor who calls Christians who disagree with him "infidels" (or "liberals").
I, too, loved your line about the automatic standing ovation. It's becoming a joke.
Is there anything that would not be fabulous or at worst instantly forgivable and forgotten?
You are getting better. You are dead wrong for suing your fomer church, but your writing is entertaining. I would hate to be in your shoes on judgement day. That is a funny blog article though. You might win an award if you did not copy too much.
Christians are like that sometimes, like this anon.
Does that make you feel good, or better about yourself, knowing that I will suffer at the judgement day, in your view? Does that help you make sense out of what I write?
wait wait! Here it comes! The "auto - O"
No. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I am thankful for Jesus to save my worthless hide. I try to abide by his teachings which includes that part regarding lawsuits.
No. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I am thankful for Jesus to save my worthless hide. I try to abide by his teachings which includes that part regarding lawsuits.
We are not embarassed as you say, he received a standing O because we stand behind. You don't like it of course since all megachurch pastors are satan himself and all members of such churches are mindless followers.
On the otherhand it gives you something to write about and keeps you in your sought postion of fame among the smart dissenters of the SBC.
December 13, 2010 4:47 PM
You may want to visit SBC Voices and read what SBC pastors are saying about this. Jeffries is an embarassment to us all.
What if a Muslim business owner says "Merry Christmas" to me? Does that mean he is not an infidel?
So, what category does Jeffries put him in?
Maybe the FBCDallas readers here can let us know the answer.
Do people go to hell that sue other people? Or just suing churches? Or pastors? Or is suing someone mean you're not a Christian?
Anon 5:40 pm,
To answer your question about the scriptural precedent for calling non-Christians "infidels" is found 23 times in the Greek in the N.T. 2 Cor. 6:15 and 1 Tim. 5:8 is actually translated "infidel" in the KJV. The word just means an unbeliever. Anyhow, not stating a personal opinion, just wanted to answer your question.
No. I don't want anyone to go to hell. I am thankful for Jesus to save my worthless hide. I try to abide by his teachings which includes that part regarding lawsuits.
December 13, 2010 11:21 PM
This is one of the problems...people do not understand what being saved means. They think it is a works related thing about following the rules.
One does not abide by Jesus' teachings to be saved. ONE HAS JESUS CHRIST IN THEM.
Most professing Christians do not know this like the commenter above because they do not study on their own but listen to men who want them to follow and be dependent on them.
Or is suing someone mean you're not a Christian?
December 13, 2010 11:52 PM
No. This person does not understand the passage in context. Pastors teach it wrongly for protection.
"Most professing Christians" You just lost your credibility.
It is always "those legalist" and "them workers" and "the vast majority" and "many."
Beam and mote on brother.
There are enough Biblically based studies regarding lawsuits amongst Christians to know what is true and meant in the Bible. I would defy anyone to bring one credible study justifying lawsuits amongst Christian brothers.
Don't fill me up on suing corporations or private businesses.
In Re Anon Dec. 14, 2010 - 8:03A.M. Defiance met- Read Exodus 21:18-22 "If men have a quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but remains in bed; if he gets up and walks around outside on his staff, then he who struck him shall go unpunished; he shall only pay for his loss of time, and shall take care of him until he is completely healed" (v.18-19); And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him,; and he shall pay as the judges decide" (v. 22)
I'm wondering if you think it is okay to sue corporations or private businesses, based upon your post.
I'm also wondering if you were to run a red light in a car you were driving, and were to strike a pedestrian who was a member of the church and were to cause them to be a quadraplegic, whether you would willingly pay for their medical bills and loss of enjoyment of life the rest of their life, without them ever suing you. If so, who would resolve the dispute of how "much" money that is if you and the person cannot agree?
"To answer your question about the scriptural precedent for calling non-Christians "infidels" is found 23 times in the Greek in the N.T. 2 Cor. 6:15 and 1 Tim. 5:8 is actually translated "infidel" in the KJV. The word just means an unbeliever. Anyhow, not stating a personal opinion, just wanted to answer your question."
Now if you can find scripture that refers to someone who does not say "Merry Christmas" to you as a seasonal greeting, you will have shown precedent.
"infidels" is found 23 times in the Greek in the N.T. 2 Cor. 6:15 and 1 Tim. 5:8 is actually translated "infidel" in the KJV."
Unfortunately the word has taken on barnacles with time. It contains a great deal of baggage especially since the war on terrorism began.
It has become an insult and a semi-threat in it's current usage.
That seems a little extreme for a salesclerk who wishes you "Happy Holidays" when you walk into their establishment.
http://www.barna.org/culture-articles/462-six-megathemes-emerge-from-2010
This story (6 megathemes of 2010) helps explain the rise of the megachurch.
II Corinthians 3:17 states
where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
dose this mean "in god we trust" which I believe is not biblical can be used as gospel. The bible commands us to believe in god for sure.
"There are enough Biblically based studies regarding lawsuits amongst Christians to know what is true and meant in the Bible. I would defy anyone to bring one credible study justifying lawsuits amongst Christian brothers."
So, when we sued the Church treasurer for embezzling funds over a three year period we were in sin because he called himself a Christian? (It was necessary to do that so he could not get rid of property before his arrest)
Do you have any idea how many evil people call themselves Christians and count on your interpretation of the passage.
"There are enough Biblically based studies regarding lawsuits amongst Christians to know what is true and meant in the Bible. I would defy anyone to bring one credible study justifying lawsuits amongst Christian brothers. "
RC Sproul's study bible says the same yet he filed suit against a blogger as Ligoneir.
You would be shocked at how many well heeled long time Christians sue people. Some are parachurch orgs and some are from churches. You might even recognize some of the names if I were at liberty to name them. Most of it is over image or money. Most of it is settled before it hits the media.
I think Sproul was astounded it hit the media (even USA Today)and became a test suit on the internet before Tom. Problem is, Sproul could not find the professing Christian blogger or it would have been much worse.
Matt
Contending For Truth - Ligonier Ministries Lawsuit Scandal
Comments on lawsuits.
I don't believe Christians should sue each other as Paul describes it. I have always felt and been taught that his context was disputes within the church regarding church business. I can see how one would come to the conclusion that he is saying christians should never sue each other, I just do not read it that way.
I am a supporter of my Pastor at FBCD and was when Mac was here (I must admit it was much more difficult with Mac). I do not agree with Mr. Rich on his method of attack or most of his content.
However, his suit against the deputy that pulled that crap is not only OK in my mind it was needed to see that others did not fall to the same type of attack. A christian brother pulling that against another is something that FBC Jax should have dealt with instead of encouraging and supporting his efforts. Flat illegal in my mind, if not he should have been the one disiplined by the church.
I do not like the idea of the suit against Mac and the church but I don't see other options for Mr. Rich. Like I have said, I don't agree with much of what he blogged about then or now for that matter but he had a right to confront his accusers and the church brought the legal aspect into the situation and not allowing him to have his attorney present after they made claims of criminal activity left him no choice but to go to the legal system.
FBC Jax should be held accountable for this unbelievable misuse of church disipline.
The SBC is a joke, folks, with guys like Jeffries, Estes, Patterson, Brunson, Gaines, etc.
--
You could not be more correct!
It seems Christians have an easy out if they want to sue another Christian. They just proclaim that the person they want to sue is not a real Christian. Problem solved.
And everybody has a different definition of Christian anyway, so the word has kinda become meaningless.
Anon. 12:16, Could not agree more regarding SBC leadership. However, let's try to separate that leadership from most of the people in the pews of small and medium sized SBC congregations (ender 500 attendees). They make up the bulk of the SBC, but seem clueless to the antics of their State and National leaders. Through more than 30 years of rules changes to convention rules and by-laws, these clowns have set themselves up as petty-tyrants, to whom the masses bow-down, pledge their loyalty, give their money and keep quiet. Come to think of it, the folks in the pews aren't so much clueless...they are just comfortable and do not want to be bothered by the larger picture of their messed-up denomination. Shame on them. If they cared about mission and ministry in the 21st century, they would rise-up, clean house and start over. If they cared....
I know many in this photo. And I'm embarrassed for them.
@1047 You lose me when you use codescending terms to desribe "the masses in the pews." You are onl offending people unnecessarily. People are not weak minded because of an opposing point of view. You will never win arguments or pursuade others to take action.
Maybe Christians are becoming more like Muslims. Everybody's afraid to criticize Muslims. Now they'll be afraid to criticize Christians too.
To both groups, I'd say fear and respect do not go hand-in-hand.
"This is not the same as gay rights, or abortion, or keeping 'In God We Trust' on the coins. In fact, to suggest that it does, diminishes these other important cultural stances that we take, and makes us look petty and ignorant."
I misread the last line as "look petty, mean and ignorant" and then decided I preferred my misreading.
To one who is a Christian but extremely alienated from most expressions of American evanglicalism, I think even the church's focus on abortion, homosexuality and words and phrases ("Happy Holidays" and In God We Trust") show the church to be mean-spirited and petty. I understand the church's theological and ideological justification for its attitudes, but I read the Scripture as well and the Savior !!!! of Mankind !!!! came to seek and save those who are lost.
The announcement at his birth was "Peace on earth, good will towards men." God has good will towards the sinner, he is not reveling in the prospect of their destruction.
Why are the people on the front row standing on a big white cloth?
Anon. 11:39, To which "condescending" terms are you referring? As I recall, the only adjectives I used in reference to the "masses in the pews" were "clueless," which I said was not the case, and "comfortable." Help me out here. I certainly do not wish to appear condescending. Having been a Southern Baptist nearly all my life (nearly 70 years), educated in a Baptist College and Seminary, and having served as a pastor and missionary on three continents, I finally mustered the courage to walk away and it feels good not to have the Southern Baptist albatross around my neck any more. Everywhere I go I meet expatriate Southern Baptist...Christians who are serving the Lord happily and without compulsion. Our "tribe" is growing.
Annon 12/15/2010 10:47 am and again at 6:31pm
What you have said in both of these comments is exactly the truth. My wife and I too are Baptist college and seminary grads and have served churches for 14 years before going to Japan with the IMB. We served almost 22 years in Japan.
We have seen the SBC and the IMB change and not really for the better. We were forced to resign from the IMB because we were “not in strategy”. We were told as were many missionaries, “Do what you are told to do without question, or get out.” We were doing exactly what God had asked us to do and HE had opened doors for us to gain entrance to places and people where other missionaries did not have entrance. I told a supervisor one day that I would apologize to him for not been in strategy, but I would not apologize to God for telling Him that I could not do what He asked me to do because it was not in IMB strategy.
Guess what we are doing now! We are back in Japan as independent “tentmaker” missionaries and God is blessing more than we could ever dream. We thought how could we ever return to Japan, especially with the high cost of living and the very weak dollar. However, God is still opening doors for us and we are gladly walking through them. We have never been happier in serving the Lord than we are right now!!!
It is sad to see that there is only one IMB unit in our area now. We have no contact with them, but they cannot be doing much. So many of the missionaries in Japan have been told they no longer fit and they need to find a new place of service or have taken early retirement and have left.
I used to be embarrased by the SBC and the craziness of the leadership. Now, I just smile and say they are reaping what they have sown for so many years. It feels so good to be free of the SBC. I am so glad our tribe is growing!
RPhipps
@631 antics, clowns, masses bow down, petty tyrants...
All Pejoratives Hope that helps you.
Its not a big white cloth, the floor under the pews is white tile and the front center pew is removed during December to make more room up front for the Christmas programs.
"antics," "clowns," and "petty tyrants" refer to leadership...not Baptist laity, and were absolutely intended to be pejoratives. Glad you picked up on that. However, one may speak pejoratively without being condescending. So, which concerns you most. The phrase "to whom the masses bow down," could have been better stated and I apologize for offending any Baptist lay person. While they may be culpable because of inaction, they are not responsible for the antics of the clowns and petty-tyrants leading the SBC today.
I'm embarrassed that I was once a part of all this.
"I think there is still time for us to do something..."
Yes! FBD deacon leadership, how about doing something to save our church? The search team's debacle and subsequent damage can't be undone, but starting from scratch would be better than where we are now.
I'm embarrassed that I was once a part of all this.
December 17, 2010 8:52 AM
Join the club.
I'm embarrassed that I was once a part of all this.
Why are you embarrassed?
Watchdog, you are the best. I almost always read your blog and love to read the comments. I sometimes give my comments. This is one of those times.
I agree with the comment by Anon about the Ms. Texas doing her stuff along with the choir. I remember when the choir at First Baptist Church Dallas sang with such beauty and respect for our Lord. It's all changed now. I have been watching by way of internet on Sunday mornings. I'm homebound because I've been having a lot of surgery.(stents and now have to have open heart surgery)
One of the happiest days of my life was when I became a member of FBC Dallas under Dr. Criswell. I just wonder what he would think if he could look down and see what is happening to such things that are now going on at the church. Is Dr. Jeffress trying to copy Rick Warren's Mega church -- the apostate? Why can't real Christians see through all this end-time apostacy?
Again, I appreciate you, Watchdog!
Marcia
Post a Comment